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tv   Weekends With Alex Witt  MSNBC  December 16, 2018 10:00am-11:00am PST

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to tell the truth, brand new msnbc polls on the president and
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the russia probe. legal woes mounting for the president and his team. new announcements for the president and his attorney. >> is he almost done? >> he is done. the only thing left are parking tickets and jaywalking. >> health care showdown. a major blow to obamacare. whether the president will make good on a new promise. hey, everyone. i'm alex witt in msnbc headquarters. here's what's happening right now. developing this hour, members of congress determining their next steps on two consequential fronts, health care and the investigation surrounding the president. in less than 48 hours, the president's former national security adviser michael flynn will become the first member of the trump administration to be sentenced. right now nearly every entity associated with donald trump is under investigation. in the last few hours, multiple tweets from the president attacking his former lawyer and repeating his claim of no
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collusion. michael cohen and prosecutors insisting then-candidate trump directed cohen to break finance law by making hush money payments. delegates in congress making calculations about how visually they want to investigate the president. >> the responsibility of congress is very clear. park yourselves on the sidelines and let mueller complete this investigation. >> i'm hoping that mr. cohen will come before the congress where he can tell the american public exactly what he has been saying to mueller without interfering with the mueller investigation. >> the concern from most people's point of view is, is there an entanglement with a foreign power that might influence foreign policy against our national interest? >> what do americans think about all of this? a new polly by the nbc news and the "wall street journal" is giving us insight. when asked whether they think trump is being honest and
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truthful about the russia probe? 62% said he is not telling the truth. also developing today, the health care of millions of americans may be in peril after a federal judge in texas ruled the affordable care act as unconstitutional. the landmark health care law remains in effect, pending appeals. senators are on both sides now preparing for a health care showdown. >> there is widespread support for protecting people with preexisting conditions. i think this will be overturned on appeal. >> we're going to fight this tooth and nail. >> the republican attorneys general who brought this lawsuit didn't do the republican party any favors. >> also new today, the white house laying out just how far the president is willing to go to get the funding necessary to build his wall. msnbc correspondent jeff bennett
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h geoff bennett has the details on this. >> it appears we're barrelling toward another government shut down at the end of the week. this would be the third shutdown that happens on his watch if it happens. the president says he's not willing to budge on this border wall money. he says he wants as much as $5 billion. the reason for that is, as we know, president trump's core objection is on this border security. democrats say this border wall that would stretch from sea to shining sea is a political issue, not a viable policy solution. so they want no part of this. what makes this shutdown showdown different from the last two is you have president trump already owning it. remember that extraordinary display in the oval office this past week where the president said, i will be proud to shut down the government on border
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security. and the adviser was on "face the nation." >> what is the president's plan and will he shut the government down to get this $5 billion funding? >> we will do whatever we can to get this wall. >> will he shut it down? >> if it comes to it
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he already said he would be proud to shut down the government in order to get the $5 billion, so yes, the government is pretty dedicated at this point. >> he says, i'm proud to do this. it's quite unique, let's say that. does this give them more appetite to go after the president and make a deal or not make a deal? determine the politics of that? >> you saw in that unusual
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showdown in the oval office just last week, democrats really sort of taking, you know, the offensive on this. and it's not been that hard. president trump himself is sort of owning the idea of a shutdown. i think so much of president trump's politics is all about his base, and his base likes this fight over a border wall. they like the immigration fight. so that's the direction that president trump heads every time. the difference now is you have a democratic party that is in power and is about to control one chamber of congress. so i think they're welcoming the fight as well and view this as a way to show bad governance on the part of president trump and speak to those suburban voters that brought them control of the house. >> darlene, are you aware of any concessions at all that the president would be willing to make to avert a partial shutdown? >> i'm not aware of any concessions he would be willing to make to avert a shutdown.
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unless he just has a complete change of heart and realizes that a shutdown would be bad for him and bad for the country and bad for hundreds of thousands of federal employees that would be affected going into the christmas holiday. >> do you think he's getting that message from anybody, though? stephen miller certainly isn't giving it to him. >> that's right. it's interesting and we'll have to see what happens. >> all right. let's shift gears with what was happening today with rudy giuliani, the president's personal attorney making his way around the talk shows, really slamming michael cohen. let's take a listen. >> pathetic. that man is pathetic. that was a lawyer you were interviewing, and he said, oh, he directed me to do it, oh, my goodness, he directed me. he's a lawyer. he's the guy you depend on to determine whether or not you should do it this way or that way, whether you're donald trump or me or you. >> he's saying the president knew it was wrong and directed
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him to do it, anyway. >> that's false. this man, you'll ever know what the truth is. he lies to fit the situation he's in. it's not a crime, george. paying $130,000 to stormy whatever, and paying 130 to another is not a crime. >> is this more of a pr war than anything else, and who do you think wins the court of public opinion? >> it's definitely a pr war. you're seeing rudy giuliani and trump allies try to discredit michael cohen and others involved in the russia investigation. but i saw president trump not that long ago referring reporters to his lawyer, michael cohen. when asked about the stormy daniels payments. so i do think it is hard for president trump to totally distance himself from michael cohen who was such a strong ally of his for so long. i do think that michael cohen does have credibility issues, so i think in a trial or in something like that where he's under oath, you know, he has had
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credibility issues in the past, so they do have some room to maneuver, but this is -- up, whether michael cohen has an incentive any longer to not tell the truth, and he frankly comes across as pretty incredible right now in some of the things that he's saying about stormy daniels and about president trump. and it also lends itself to what other evidence has he given to investigators to prove his accounts, which michael cohen is saying he has provided additional evidence. >> and to your point, the president was referring to him as his personal attorney as recently as april of this year prior to the april 9 raid on his office and his personal property there. that's when things dramatically changed. do you think, darlene, the president is satisfied with the way rudy giuliani is handling on the message og theing on these r at least the overall response that concerns the white house?
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>> i have to think the president is somewhat satisfied with the way rudy giuliani is handling himself on the airways, otherwise the president would not allow him to continue going out and represent him and talk about the case the way he does. >> what about the way he claims -- giuliani, i'm talking about -- that the sentencing is essentially over. >> is mueller about done? >> he is done. the only thing left are parking tickets and jaywalking. >> what does that suggest? that's certainly tongue in cheek there, but does it suggest he's confident? >> no, because thai beey've bee talking about mueller being done for six or eight months and the investigation has continued. there are indications that mueller is closer to wrapping things up, but there are also signs of other loose strands out there. julian assange, roger stone.
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there are other people around trump that we've not had evidence of mueller completing his look into those individuals. there are plea agreements and there are signs of sentencing occurring, so, you know, i think things are moving toward a close, but how close that is is really hard to tell. >> yeah. it's pretty much anybody's guess at this point. thank you both so much. new reaction from capitol hill as at least six trump entities come under fire. you'll hear from the house judiciary committee about that. plus the white house reaction to michael cohen.
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i need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david so that -- i'm going to do that right away. i've spoken to allen wieselberg about how to set the whole thing up with funding -- >> one of the secret recordings of trump's former lawyer michael cohen speaking with trump about how to set up hush money payments. joining me now, representative val cummings, representative from florida. i want your reaction to that tape. >> thanks so much. it's good to be with you. my, what a week we're having. but let me say this. i would think the biggest
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problem for the president is not michael cohen but the corroborating evidence that we have. you just played one piece of that, the written document, the tapes, the people who were in the room with the president while he was in the room. and so it's just -- you know, this type of evidence is what we would consider prima facie and it really speaks for itself. >> what do you think the president's messaging should be on this? >> we take our job very, very seriously and we're going to do our job. when we take over the house in january, believe me, tlhere is lot to do. we're going to provide the necessary oversight, as we should. we're all waiting to see the mueller investigation concluded. i believe it is near a conclusion, and we will look at the evidence that is presented to us. but believe me, we're going to hold the president accountable, we're going to hold this administration accountable and we're going to take the appropriate action necessary
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while we continue to look out for the other interests of the american people like health care, for example. >> i know you have also some policies and things that you want to get done based on why you were given back the power in the house. but certainly, do you think that you have enough from the investigations thus far to pursue impeachable offenses? >> let me say this. as our chairman jerry nadler has said, impeachment is a very serious process and that it should be reserved for very serious situations. impeachment, as we've all witnessed in the past in our history, is tough on the american people, is tough on congress. it's painful. but let me say this. as a part of the judiciary committee, our job is to protect the constitution, uphold the constitution and make sure that the proper application of the law moves forward. we are going to do our job, and if mueller's investigation leads us to impeachment, we're going
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to do our job up to and including impeachment. to not consider all options would be dereliction of duty. >> well, to your point, this was an extremely consequential week. there were some major developments. michael cohen pleaded guilty, got sentenced. despite your thinking michael cohen is not the biggest problem for the president he faces, where does all this leave the president in terms of legal challenges? >> i think as we all witnessed, especially this week, but really since the investigation, the special counsel's investigation began, things have not gotten better for the president. they've gotten worse. many people involved with his campaign and his administration have either been indicted or been sentenced, as we've seen this week. but it is the corroborating evidence. we've heard a lot of criticism by those who support the president, his enablers that
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michael cohen is not a reliable witness. but look, as a former police chief and a former detective, when we're building criminal cases, a lot of the people who help us do that are not what you would consider reliable witnesses. but there is always corroborating evidence. and in this case we have seen it with our own eyes, we've heard it with our own ears, and believe me, we have not seen all that is yet to come. >> i love that you bring that background to your position in congress. it's pretty terrific. but may i get to a "wall street journal" question, has trump been honest and truthful about the russia probe? 62% said no, 34% said yes. >> we had a meeting the other day and we talked about the priorities of the american people, as we've been painfully
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reminded, protecting health care for millions of americans that need it. making sure our system works for everyone. better jobs, better wages. protecting our public housing, things people worry about every day. but i also hear from my constituents, when are you going to hold the president accountable? are you going to hold the president accountable? what about the russia investigation. the poll that came out recently doesn't surprise me at all, because i hear from people in our level or the extent of his involvement. >> as i said, you guys have a lot on your plate come january, so enjoy the holidays. >> thank you. rudy giuliani said today that it would be happening over his dead body. what was he referring to? we'll give you the answer, next. fidelity is redefining value.
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the president's attorney, rudy giuliani, is reacting to the news that michael cohen has opened up the president to a national crime. >> collusion is not a crime. if it's not a campaign expense,
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it can't be a campaign contribution. >> but the corporate contribution for ami would be clearly illegal. >> no, it would not be. >> this is why this thing is so weird, strange. the crime is conspiracy to hack. collusion is not a crime. >> joining me now are two former federal prosecutors, liam brennan and steve lawton. he just said collusion is not a crime but then he said it was over by the election. is he admitting to collusion? >> that's a great question, alex. i don't think he is. i think he's trying to put forth two different arguments, one, saying collusion is not a crime, and two, besides that, all of this was done by the election. now, what we know is collusion is another way of conspiring with somebody or agreeing with somebody to do something.
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conspiracy to violate any of the u.s. laws is a crime, so colluding is getting together to affect the election exclusively, and there is the possibility it's a crime. >> stephen, when you hear rudy giuliani describe this investigation as weird and strange, do you agree with that? that's how he describes it, that's his quote. >> no, i don't agree at all, and obviously it's his job as trump's lawyer to try to characterize it that way, but he's really confusing two different things. the collusion, as we just heard correctly, conspiracy with others in russia to influence the election. what we're talking about now with cohen and the hush money payments is a different collusion. if pecker and david and i are correct in saying these payments were done to influence the
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campaign, they are clearly a violation of campaign finance law. for one thing, it's a corporate contribution, which is not allowed. for another, it was not properly reported, and in the stance of the stormy daniels payments, they actually created falsifying records as to what the party should be for. all of those things are campaign finance fraud and are clearly crimes. jewel yawn i can do all he can to mayshut it up. >> he is clearly trying to shut this up in the conclusion of this show. >> it was an in the moment capturing of what's going on. the prosecution always has a few hurdles they have to jump, and
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now you've got michael cohen saying, yes, this was the purpose of the payments, and i was doing it at the direction of the candidate. now we have ami actually admitting the same thing, saying, yes, the company did this to influence the election, and they're admitting it it in a non-profit grunsy group. it all ties themselves together with the president himself, so it really is a key piece of evidence that makes the glue of putting these puzzle pieces together. >> rudy giuliani sat down and talked about the special counsel. >> they have a special counsel. can he interview the president? >> good luck. they're a joke. over my dead body, but i could be dead. they're the ones violating the law. they're looking at a non-crime collusion. the other guy slooki ins lookin
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non-crime violation which they're not violations. >> do you think mueller should subpoena the president for hid testimony, and in doing. given that a central issue is going to be trump's own state of mind, what he was aware of at various times and what the purpose was behind various actions he took, like, for example, firing fbi director james comey, there really is no substitute for that information, then speaking one on one with the president, being able to ask immediate follow-up questions. getting it from other sources won't do, getting is from written answers of questions probably won't do. so he would be within his rights to subpoena the president. now, the president may try and resist that sun. as you heard from president giuliani, it is possible that he
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will be asked to respond. >> the trump organization may have overpaid ivanka trump. ivanka trump had someone ready to answer questions about this. they can't independently verify that claim, but what does that tell you? >> the report focused on the fact that if the trump inaugural committee, which was nonprofit, was paying above-market rates for these hotel rooms, then there could be a tax violation and face penalties. that is a big financial drawback if we found that, the possibility of fraud charges that are here, if ivanka or
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someone else was trying to jack up prices, then they could be defrauding the committee. we know ivanka connected the inaugural manager, but we don't really know what her role in setting the prices. whether that's true or not, the evidence is not out yet. >> okay, liam brennan and ste n steven. >> the other person behind the trump hush money payments talks to me next.
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new today, the president lashing out on twitter against a growing number of investigations and calling his previous attorney michael cohen a rat. but cohen is not the only one cooperating with prosecution into investigation of women paid by president trump. joining me now, stu aiken, the former executive of the company national inquirer now a member of bridge communications. steve, i want to be clear that you were not at a mirmi during 2016 election, but i want to start with how things work in the tabloid world, and how speaking with prosecutors could be a problem for the president. >> thanks, alex, for having me back. yes, i believe that pecker's cooperation is going to be a
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problem for the president, because clearly when pecker got his deal, or when the company got their deal not to be prosecuted during what was contribution he's got the goods. >> like what? how does a story like this go down? people talked about doing something? can you go thooefr again. that's done for a variety of reasons. certainly if you're david pecker, it's done to protect you. and when it was done for trump, it was done to admittedly help the campaign. it gives you enormous power when you have the ability to take something out of the marketplace to squash a story. >> was this just because he was a friend of donald trump's, or is there something else for david pecker.
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>> he was a friend, but there were nugs. so as a result of this friendship, he had an insatiable appetite for news they were putting out there about trump and his opponents. he also got more likes because people were going to his website and his facebook. >> knowing how these things go down or what may have been asked david pecker in terms of what. >> leet be honest, there is a lot of. we can only imagine it had to be sophisticated enough that ami and david pecker was able to get
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off without being prosecuted. >> is there question about pecker's a. clearly here obviously the government and the prosecutors feel he was very credible. they wouldn't just give this on a lark. he had to prove to them -- imagi imagine, we weren't there to prove everything he was saying, but he validated everything they were saying or he wouldn't given this deal. >> you had the l.a. times saying today that trump seemed to defy gravity by insisting, relying, but now nearly two years after he entered the white house, trump's lies appear to be catching up with him. >> p.
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>> that's really an interesting the campaign. we definitely know it can blow up in his face because many times we saw him on a montage of covers that go across there. i don't know the answer to the question, to be honest with you. >> steve, i'm going to remind you that you were not there at ami during 2016, but were you privy to the kind of relationship that donald trump and david pecker had? can you speak to how lengthy it was they spoke, whether an important one went back to the
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new pushback from president's attorney, rudy giuliani. there are a few arguments he tried to make. >> it's not a campaign expense, it can't be a campaign contribution. >> but the campaign from ami would be clearly illegal. >> no, it would not be. it's not a contribution. >> did donald trump know that michael cohen was pursuing the
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trump tower in moscow in the summer of 2016? >> according to the answer that he gave, it would have covered all the way up to november. >> earlier they said it was january 2016. >> until you go back and look at the papers, you're not going to know what happened. we have three years now. he's changed his story four or five times. >> so has the president. >> the president is not under oath and the president tried as best he can to remember what happened. >> joining me now, jonathan alter, columnist for "the daily beast" and republican strategist nick poor. jonathan, you first here. your takeaways from giuliani's comments are? >> he's really not a very good advocate for his client who is in a world of legal hurt in 2019. the idea of saying, well, the
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president was not under oath, that's like nixon saying, i'm not a crook. these are the kind of things you do when you're flailing all the way down. we don't know which of these charges, alex, will stick, and we certainly don't know whether they will lead to impeachment and removal from office. but what we do know is donald trump is like gulliver in gulliver's travels, where they're tying him down in many knots and making him with an inability to move. meanwhile the republicans are in a real danger of being seen as trump enablers. expect to see that phrase t.e., you're a trump enabler r.
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>> i have to tell you i am now picturing a character from gulliver's travels. you have him moving the goalpost here. pretty useless answer about the shifting stories. what's your reaction to that? >> well, alex, this is donald trump's personal attorney rudy giuliani, and he's going to go to bat for his boss, president trump. i would actually want someone that defended me every step of the way. >> absolutely you want that. but noelle, is giuliani effectively defending the president? >> well, i think there so many
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things going on at the same time. there are so many investigations going on at the same time. that's a lot to about campaign finance violations. this is major deal. if you've looked at it, seems to be two different sets of answers that you're getting. on clear violation of campaign finance law. proving intent. this is going to be a very hard thing to prove. then you've got michael cohen who a lot of people didn't like him and said he was dishonest and now they are saying he is honest. >> how about that tape? how about that tape when he's got the president and they're talk about making a hush money payment to stormy daniels. >> i don't think any of that is good. i think the optics are bad.
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once again, with the tapes, these weren't lengthy tapes. they are saying that some of this may not be real. they are saying consider the source. they're saying michael cohen is singing like a bird because he's under duress. this is what they are saying. >> how do you interpret the comments? >> i think the president would be served better by a different counsel. i think rudy is not acting like a lawyer. he sees this as a pr cam pin pa and he's trying to litigate this in the court of public opinion. it's working. the economy is doing fine. >> for now. >> we think about what is coming down the pike and tariffs and all those things will hit the american that voted for trump really hard next year.
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the one thing they will care about is all this probing and lawsuits. i think there's such a distaste outside of beltway for really essentially how this is all playing out. this is more taxpayer money that is being used to probe another thing. it's so inside baseball to the average american. the numbers are don't budge. 48% approve of the job. 50% disapprove. that is not moving the needle. >> that's an outlier poll. only 34% of the american public believes that donald trump is telling the truth. that is a horrible number for him. >> they are fine to stick with him. >> you're saying we know none of this means anything to the people out there. that is completely unsupported. a lot of people are paying attention to their own lives and
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not so much to what's going on in washington. there are polls that show the more they learn, the more negative it is for donald trump. they will learn an all lot when the mueller report comes out. he's in really bad position. we can try to splien his wexpla out of it. a lot of democrats are amazed so many republicans are sticking with him. they don't moe the history of this. if you look at watergate is there a tipping point at a certain point. if some of these charges turn out to be true, you'll see republicans heading for the exits really fast. >> those watergate comparisons don't hold up entirely. g i get what you're saying about it having the impact it will. i think it will take a great deal of time. we are speculating and the american public knows that michael cohen is a liar and
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republican senators and lawmakers, though i may not personally agree, still call into question his credibility. i think that's the biggest problem for democrats is michael cohen is not credible. >> it's not a problem for democrats. it's not an election for two years. they have the gavel and the subpoena power. i think they want to wait and see after that point you'll see investigations on all of this. the american public will get this all lads out for them. where that goes -- >> it's still not going to be lay up. >> the idea it won't be happening is extraordinarily painful. >> i want to get in what i know a will the of the american public is concerned about and that is health care. there's this federal judge in texas declaring obama care unconstitutional. it's because of the individual mandate. that's what health care for 20 million americans in question. health care among one of the top issues that voters went to the
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polls on during the midterms. could republicans be making a mistake by pushing for the end of obama care? >> i think by coming to an end of obama care, i think that it gives a chance for true bipartisan. i think the bill needs to be everybody. when obama care was in place, a lot of people that voted for democrats to get obama care really were not happy with that. i think this is a great chance to maybe see if we can come up with some sort of a bipartisanship way to amend what's going on with health care. >> jonathan, the president called this ruling great news. catching for mitch and nancy to pass a new health care bill and you have doemocrats poised to take control of the house. what is the best move, to protect obama care or replace it? >> they're not going to replace
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it. first of all, the republicans have had many years and they haven't come up with plan to replace it. we need to understand even though this decision in texas is scaring a lot of people who have pre-existing conditions and otherwise 17 million people who could lose their health insurance as a result of this decision, there's no injunction as part of this decision that ends obama care right now. everything just continues the same until it goes to the supreme court. most legal experts do not believe the supreme court will uphold this texas decision. then we'll be where we were last week before this decision. nobody in washington will do anything until the supreme court rules on this. >> all right. that's got to be a wrap. i'm out of time for this hour. good to see all three of you. the president and polls. do americans believe the president is telling the truth about the russia probe? we'll show you the new numbers at the top of the hour. i landed.
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we have hit the top of the hour which means i'm out of time. time to hand it off to my colleague. hello, everyone. not telling the truth. six in ten americans say they doubt the president's side of the story in the russia investigation. just one of multiple inquiries that could put his job in jeopardy. calling him rat. the president once again