seems a little surprisinging. >> 10 seconds? >> well, tough talk from a judge who clearly does not like what he has been hearing from mike flynn lately. >> a big thanks for the panel who joined me and a big thanks to you as well. we will continue the breaking news coverage, and general flynn is set to be sentenced any moment, and i will see you tomorrow morning on "today." here is andrea mitchell. i'm andrea mitchell, and continuing the dramatic sentencing of general michael flynn, the highest ranking official to face prosecution so far is at this hour inside of the courthouse, and inside of the courtroom for the hearing, and emmitt sullivan pressing the defendant with arguments made by the attorneys regarding the guilty plea, and flynn said that he does not want to the change or challenge his plea, and added that he was aware that he was lying to the fbi when it was a

crime at his position at the white house. and in a separation allegation filed ed yesterday of his firm' representation of turkey in the transition. the judge said that if he had not cooperated he could have been charged in that case as well. and the special counsel is not rk mending sentencing, because of substantials a s assistance over 19 interviews. joining me is mimi rowka, and ben rhodes, and msnbc national political reporter david ignatius, and also a kcolumnist and contributor carol lee. and so, carol lee and mimi rocah with us, and let e's talk about what we just heard from the judge from gary gromback reporting from inside of the courthouse, and the judge is

recommending the sentencing of the prosecutors and why this is unusual is that under the federal guidelines of zero the six moents he would not normally get any incarceration considering the extensive cooperation, and so it sounds like judge emmitt sullivan who s is an outlier and controversial this the past may be actually recommending jail time for michael flynn. >>le we-- well, andrea, i belie that is right, but i don't want to overstate that it is an outlier, the special counsel in the sentencing memo said low end of the guideline range or no jail time. the second time after flynn had made this submission sort of trying to claim that he was duped or trapped the special counsel did not use no jail time they were stand fwig recommendation of something at the low end of the guideline

range, a range, and so that is interpr interpreted a little bit differently. i think that flynn did himself a disservice by making those arguments about the nature of the interview, even though now the judge is asking him if he is taking responsibility, and it is yes, but it caused the judge and the special counsel to focus back on the bad acts that he did as opposed to the good acts of the cooperation. so it is hard to know what the judge would have done if this had not transpired this way, but it did. the judge a little bit ticked off and rightfully so. while you are right that an ordinary case of false statements and zero to six months and someone who cooperate ed no jail time, and this is not an ordinary case or ordinary defendant. someone like mike flynn should be held to a higher standard and so i think that the judge is showing that, and he is trying to keep flynn in line if he needs to continue cooperating. >> and of course, also rudy

giuliani in the white house jumping in with the perjury al allegations, which was not helpful to his case in court, and joining me is ken delainian outside of the courthouse. ken w we a ken, we are hearing a number of statements from the judge while he is trying to get him on the are record that he lied and lied in the white house, and the defense attorneys are walking back the original filing trying to put it in a different context and the prosecutors as well saying that they expect mike flynn to continue to cooperate in other cases, and that he could have been charged on that the turkey case. ken? >> yes, as mimi was alluding to, this hearing is not going well for mike flynn considering that the prosecution and the defense went into this recommending no prison time. the judge, emmitt sullivan went right to the heart of the filing that flynn's lawyers put into the record where they tried to suggest that because he was not warned that lying to the fbi is a federal crime that mitigated

his behavior and sullivan said, sir, does that mean that you are not guilty and you are trying to take back your guilty plea, and flynn said, no, he understand, and what he did was wrong he lied to the fbi. later he then suggested that he could even postpone the sentence for flynn, because the cooperation, as you said, is not cot pleemly finished, because i can't guarantee a sentence without incarceration today without going forward and he said to flynn, you sold out the country, and that is not to lyi lying, but the scheme to where flynn secretly lobbied on bea half of the government of turkey, and flynn has not been charged with that, but he plead guilty to it, and this is a scheme where flynn is plead to half a million, and even to op-ed that he wrote on election day, andrea, in support of extraditing a cleric that the

turkish government wants turned over. so we with don't know how the judge is going to rule, but we have no prosecution for mike flynn. >> there is going to be a recess until 12:30, and i'm just pausing this because the judge has said that there is a are recess and we are hearing this from inside of the courthouse, and ken, you not been able to look down at your devices either as we are getting the information just now, but it is clearly not going to way that the prosecution or the defense expected because judge emmitt sullivan is raising the questions. judge sullivan has asked hypothetically could he have been charged with treason, and the answer is because it is such a serious question, i am hesitant from answering. this is an interaction that we are getting is that the

government's recommendation is when we say low end of the gu e guidelines it is low end without incarceration in regard to other recommendations. and the judge asking if he has any points for accepting responsibility, and he has accepted responsibility in court today under oath in front of judge contreras. and ken, hang on a second, because pete williams is also joining us now. pete w we a pete, we are a little bit confused as to where the judge is taking this, and understand that there is a brief recess in the court proceeding as well. he seems to be taking a much harder line with both the prosecution recommendation for no incarceration and with the defense. pete? >> the judge has given michael flynn three chances, andrea, and this is a rattlesnake judge

shaking the rattle. he is saying look out, because he is prepared to give him a sentence in prison and strongly suggesting that the defense take the hint and delay this sentence to see if there is more cooperating that they can do. the judge has clearly signaled that he is not buying the recommendation that the joint recommendation really of the defense and the prosecution of zero jail time based on flynn's cooperation. the judge said it is a serious offense for a government official to lie no the fbi in the white house. and he said that flynn was acting as an unregistered agent of a foreign government while he was serving as national security adviser and he found flynn's behavior disgusting, and astonishingly, he asked if mueller's team ever suggested charging him with treason which i have a hard time understanding that, because treason means aid

and help to the epmy, a -- hel the enemy, but i don't understand that, because that is somebody we are at war with, and so that is a signal that they will impose prison time if they go ahead, and so the only problem is that robert mueller's team feels that he has been done with cooperation, and it is not clear how much cooperating he could do to basically wash away the sins here, and come away with no prison time. so it is extraordinary hearing, and we have a are recess until 12:30 while the defense is thinking long and hard about what the judge has warn ed them about. >> pete, joining us is ken delainian, and pete, i wanted to tell you that chuck rosenberg is with us a former u.s. attorney, and senior fbi official, and of course, carol lee our colleague who covers national security. this has been extraordinary. and just seeing the notes from inside of the court. judge u sullivan as we said a few moments ago hypothetically

and could he have been charged with treason, the pross couture, and because it is a serious question, i am hesitant to answer, and he does not want to answer that in open court. but when we say low end of the guideline range, we do include the possibility of no incarceration, and it is to distinguish some other representation that this special counsel has made in other cases, ie, papadopoulos and others, and sullivan, do you have an opinion if he has accepted the adjustment points for responsibility. and the prosecutor, he has accepted responsibility today and under oath and in open court under judge contreras. so if you were the prosecutor there in front of judge sullivan and you have prosecuted cases in front of him, and what would you have on your mind? >> i would be very frustrated, because all of the criminal history of general flynn, and

coming out to zero to six-month range, and he has cooperated and the government is recommending no incarceration. so it is seeming to me that you have here a mecurial judge inserting himself into the process. i get it. it is his courtroom, and the judges can do that, but this is clear, and it is unfortunate that the judge in my opinion is mucking it up. >> and if mucking it up is a technical term, you, ken delainian, standing outside of the courthouse, they must be incredibly frustrated given that this is the best witness yet, and that i say that he has given substantial cooperation on turkey and russia and who knows what else. >> and andrea, this is the second time that we have seen a judge that is affected by the larger context and the incredible public interest and media scrutiny on the case. we saw wit with the judge in virginia with a heavy hand in paul manafort, and the question

that you asked before you went to pete, he is asking the prosecuti prosecution, are you sure that flynn has accepted responsibility under the law which is again an illusion to the filing that flynn suggested he was trapped by the the fbi which seems to have really bothered judge sullivan, and the prosecutors who have texted me said that as a matter of ccepte he went into the courtroom, and said, yes, i have lied, and that is not what the judge is seeing which is leading him to hand a prison sentence, and the better part of valor is to wait until he is completely done with the prosecution, and try the judge on a different day. >> and so they are both thinking that they are in sync that he should not go to jail, but carol lee, many of us going into this, and many of us and our lawyer friends here that his 30-plus

years of service would be another mitigating factor, and this is a man who rose to the heights of military intelligence in afghanistan and became the head of the intelligence agency and fired by general clapper and barack obama because they p felt that he was a bad manager and not working out for him once with he was promoted to the the post which led to a lot of his bitterness as well, and how much of that led to him going to are russia and seen sitting across from vladimir putin and then accepting this a offer from the erdogan are regime, and you have been digging deeply into the turkish connection which was charged yesterday where he would have been charged as individual a in the indictment. had he not been cooperating in this case. >> and what is so interesting ant this is that even with the special counsel's sentencing memo on flynn laid out everything that you just said in terms of his service to the country and, you know, his past and how he had contributed so

much, and the background in addition to how much he had cooperated and so it is fascinating that the judge has turn turned out to be the wild card here. i don't think that anyone was expecting that, and i also think that, you know, clearly the michael flynn's lawyer's decision to challenge whether or not he was are properly interviewed by the fbi is not sitting well with him, and it is not clear to me why they did it, and it is clearly not getting them anything, but it has hurt h him, and it is interesting to know what we will find out if he had not done that. i found the flynn's lawyer's reason og for that to say that he wanted to distinguish him from papadopoulos and those others who were warned with lawyers there, and it did not make a lot of sense why they would have done, that and so, you nknow, at this point it sees that his koun is sell has a lot of kind -- that his counsel hast

of questions to answer if they want to move forward, because it seems that he is going to be potentially going to have some jail time here. >> and david ignatius here, you have a unique perspective, because you were mentioned in the sentencing memo of mike flynn and you wrote in january of 2017 a piece of the washington post first raising the act of logan act which is treason and it has not p been charged since 1789 or whatever it was that it was first, or maybe charged once when it was legislated, and the fact that you first revealed the kislyack connection and the possibility that in your are reporting this conversation or the conversations with kislyack, the russian ambassador at the time and michael flynn had to do with promising the russians that if they didn't overreact to barack obama's sanctions because of the interference, and the interference in the election,

they would go easy once they took office after january 20th, and what is your perspective of what is happening today? >> it is an extraordinary day. i should note, andrea, one should not equate violation of the hogan act with treason, because they are different things. >> okay. >> logan act is a 18th century somewhat archaic piece of legislation. the issue that i was initially reporting was precisely what you say that on the very day that barack obama was trying to punish russia for meddling in our elections in 2016, mike flynn was talking with the russian ambassador, and i raised the question in that column, was he talking with kislyack about removing sanctions after donald trump took office. it turns out that he was. >> and more broadly on what the judge is doing -- >> that he was talking about that issue of removing this

sanction, and so we are come a long way since then. i agree with carol that flynn's lawyers did something bizarre. the table was set for a sentencing process and flynn's counsel and the lawyers and he had done exactly what was asked of him, and in this 11th hour memo, was he manipulated into lying in the initial statement by the judge, i have never had a defendant coming before me who was pleading guilty and at the same time suggesting that he was not guilty, and that is obviously infuriated the judge. it was a bad tactical mistake by the lawyers. >> and tom winter is our national security and investigative producer in new york is pointing out that as a reminder in this plea agreement, mike flynn signed an agreement

with the special counsel office that he waives the right to appeal the sentence of the case including imprisonment if that is what the judge decides. so there is a lot at stake here. and ben rhodes is joining us, the former deputy security adviser in the obama white house at the time when obama with white house was imposing sanctions on russia for interference in the elections, and we know now that when president obama met in the oval office with president-elect donald trump on november 10th, two days of the election, he warned basically of two things that north korea would be the biggest foreign policy challenge, and mike flynn was a problem. they knew that mike flynn was a problem and there was a counter intelligence investigation into him already apparently. ben rhodes. >> we have seen mike flynn over the course of the years that he had left the obama

administration delve deeper into the conspiracy theories and the strange ties with russia, and as you say, emerge under investigation. it is worth taking back and we are focused on the judge and how extraordinary this is that it is the national security adviser to the president of the united states and arguably the second most important person in the nation responsible for tr security, and the reason that the judge is frustrated is that he lied about the contacts with the russian ambassador about wanting to have the sanctions lifted. he lied about his contacts with the russian ambassador about a u.n. security resolution, and these are not trivial things. he lied about the work on behalf of the turkish government. oso these are really significant lies he has told to the u.s. government while in the white house, and cooperating what is clear to me the reason for the last-minute play by the lawyers

that he was not aware of the jeopardy, and it is a base for the trump supporters that flynn got a raw deal here, and he is trying to have it both ways. on one hand, i'm cooperating, but on the other hand, i want to send out the dog whis fol ttle supporters it is not fair. and that is the judge reminding us of the crime s ths that he w sit there in his office in the white house down the hall from the oval office that he would do this. the judge is highlighting how troubling this behavior was from michael flynn. >> and let me follow up, ben, the fact that mike flynn in fact called kislyack, the call that was intercepted was from a vacation in the dominican republic and how the former top defense intelligence official could not have expected that

call would have been overheard by a number of people, including the fbi is extraordinary. the other thing is that sally yates, the acting attorney general came in right after they took office and warned them about mike flynn and it took them 18 days to fire him, and so there is a long history here. >> absolutely. the absurdity of mike flynn the know that the white house is rolling outsanction, and he had no know that there which with meddling, and he had to know that nobody's phone call is more interesting to other people than the russian ambassador, and how he thought that he could get away with the russian ambassador given the background in intelligence is staggering. it is suggesting to me that after the election, some of the trump people felt that the rules did not apply to them, and they

had a sense of impunity, and now what we are seeing with mike flynn and some of the other offici officials in hot water are people who made terrible decisions in the period of time after the election, because they seem to think that they could get away with it. >> ben rhodes, and our entire team, ken delainian, and carol lee, and chuck rosenberg, and standby, mimi rocah. we will be back after a brief message. message. here we go.

discover. i like your card, but i'm absolutely not paying an annual fee. discover has no annual fees.

really? yeah. we just don't believe in them. oh nice. you would not believe how long i've been rehearsing that. no annual fee on any card. only from discover.

and we kopt with tcontinue breaking news. msnbc correspondent pete w williams outside of the courthouse, and they are taking a break, but it is an extraordinary disagreement of whether or not there should be incarceration for mike flynn despite the recommendation of the prosecution that he should not have incarceration due to coop ration. >> and the judge asked if he wants to go ahead with sentencing, because i don't know if i can do that without incarceration, and the judge said that every time that you o cooperate, it helps to reduce the potential sentence and maybe you want to do some more

cooperating is what he said, but the problem is that, andrea, who knows how much more cooperating he can do. he has met with robert mueller's team 19 times, and he plead guilty a year ago and this is how long he has been meeting with the mueller team, and the fact that they were with willing -- were willing the go ahead, it is that the mueller's team believes he has told them everything that they need to do, and so it is as a practical matter how much more cooperating he could do the disswaj the judge's concerns, and that is the problem right now. >> carol lee n the defense motions which seemed so strange to a lot of us, some sort of a signal the white house regarding pardons or future relief from all of this? >> well, we certainly know that we don't know that for sure, but we know that filing did ignite something in the the president and the people who support him

or around him in terms of the president tweeting this morning that he was wishing michael flynn luck at his hearing, and they have come to his defense and saying that he was given a raw deal, and the fbi did not approach him fairly, and it is all designed to feed into the president and his supporters assault on the fbi, and that the fbi is politically motivated an unfair. so one thing that i have been thinking as we are watching all of this unfold is whether the judge's move in this would fuel that even further, and perhaps push the president toward a pardon or something along those line, and because, you know, i think that if you are looking, and you have a situation where the prosecution and the defense were on the same side and the judge comes in to kind of blowing it up, you could see how that would not sit well with the president, and it would kind of push him towards wanting to have more to say about this in terms

of how michael flynn is getting a raw deal, and all unfair. >> there is a distinction between the president's posture between michael flynn and michael cohen, and both cooperating witnesses. and chuck, you know this judge. this is unusual behavior or unpredictable behavior certainly more the prosecution. >> he is predictably unpredictable, andrea, but what the folks need to understand is that all of the conduct, and all of general flynn's conduct is accounted for in the guidelines. >> sentencing book. >> yes, it is a thick book and a lot of stuff in there and the offense that he commit and whether or not he accepted responsibility, and certain standing in the office, and whether it is more than minimal planning and whether he used sophisticated means, and all of that is factored in for every defendant in court, and all of that was zero the six months even without substantial assistance, and by the way that

is a term of art and that means something to prosecutors and it is not an easy thing to get. >> how hard to get that recommendation from the prosecutors, and how as a prosecutor do you need to discuss that? >> in the eastern district of virginia when i was a prosecutor, it was run through a committee of senior people. you had to go in there and present to them everything that your defendant did, right, in order to cooperate fully. so it was vetted through a senior leadership team, and not given out easily or haphazardly, and it is something that is a considered judgment of the senior leaders in the office. the mueller team is comprised of very senior prosecutors, and they know from years of experience what substantial assistance is and is not. they don't give these things lightly. of course, a judge has final authority, and everyone knows that, but where general flynn laid himself there and cooperated fully, and met 19

time, and assisted in the government's investigation, the judge typically ought to credit that. >> and they went into the chambers to talk to him about this? >> well, i imagine that they did it through the filed written pleadings. most judges would -- >> i mean now. >> it is entirely possible and i don't know if judge sullivan will invite people in, and some do and some don't, and he has everything in front of him, and folks have to understand that the substantial assistance motions are not given away frif rousely or lightly. >> and so, julia ansley is joining us from new york and you have studied the 302 documents which indicate what that first fbi interview was like and how he was questioned by top leaders peter strzok and andrew mccabe.

>> yes, the 302 is something that the fbi agents will write up after they interview the subjects, and what we saw is the redacted version, but the u judge has the unredakted version and he saw time and time again that he had the opportunity to come clean about the conversations with ambassador kislyack, and he refused to do so. there is a line in there where flynn admits voluntarily they say to a closed door meeting with ambassador kislyack after the election and then a big redacted paragraph, and he knows what is in there and the 302s were filed because the judge asked the prosecution to do so because there was a question brought up by the defense that perhaps michael flynn didn't know that he was, that it was a crime to lie no the fbi, and they provided it to show again and again to tell the truth, and now flynn is walking that back and saying that, yes, this is a crime. so in the piece of time this judge has gotten this amount of information and he is now making

these actions today that seem pretty irrational to us, but maybe he knows something else underneath. another thing they wanted to point out is that flynn is not the only cooperating witness in the probe, and others that we don't know about, and i am wondering if those people are watching it today to put a chilling effect on the people cooperating with the mueller probe if they are not going to be guaranteed a lighter sentence, because ultimately, it does fall po tto the judges and the prosecutors. >> and david ignatius at the washington post, crime in here on the other witnesses, and what flynn has already done in helping them obviously indict his partner and the turkish official who will probably never face the reach of the u.s. law, but with what we now know about flynn and his representation of erdogan, coming only beginning 11 days after the inauguration.

and saying that they would be secular and he knew all of the generals because of being nato partners and that if they were turned over it would be a good day, and then according to indictments yesterday, he goes ahead to sign the agreement to represent erdogan secretly for $60,000 is remarkable. >> we are discovering really in indictment that was brought yesterday against the two associates in this effort to represent the turkey, the detail of how far flynn and his associate associates went in trying to help the erdogan government. one thing that is remarkable that may have rubbed the judge

the wrong way is that flynn with his two colleagues in the effort essentially they were trying to overturn a justice department decision that the cleric who is living in exile in pennsylvania who the turks blame for a coupe attempt is not subject to extradition, and this campaign was seeking to overturn the ruling without disclosing that it is at the behest of the turkish government and that is what got under the skin of the judge's skin. >> after he testified to houses republicans with who demanded that he come in yesterday and go over hillary clinton's e-mails and lot of stuff, he spoke outs

forful -- forcefully about whate president had tweeted about michael cohen and the cooperating witness, and bear this in mind as well. >> it undermines the rule of law and this is the president of the united states calling a witness who has cooperated with his own justice department a rat. a sand that again to yourself at home and remind yourself to where we have ended up. there is a set of valle yus that represent the glue of the country under attack like things like that, and so we have to stop being numb of that, and stand on your feet and overcome your shame and say something. >> that is the former fbi director. and ben rhodes, talk about that. i am sure that those of you on the democratic side of the aisle have a lot of feelings about what jim comey did in the campaign, but what he said yesterday rang a bell with a lot of people who are concerned about what is come out of the white house towards these cooperating with witnesses. >> yes. i mean, andrea, when you are in

the white house, one rule that you are careful to keep is to not comment on ongoing independent legal matters. the president of the united states when it was barack obama was very careful not the comment, and influence the ongoing legal matters, but we have seen this president just donald trump blow through the norms as it relates to commenting on the investigation, and we have seen him actively trying to undermine the independence of the investigation s and trying to mettle, and by saying that someone who is cooperating is a rat. he is sending the message that he is working against the rule of law in this kcountry, and whether it is the justice department or the intelligence community, you rely on people to cooperate with you to get to the bottom of things that happened and to get to the bottom of the national security threats in the country. so what james comey is point in out there is that we are in a extraordinary situation where

trump tweets things everyday that become normal to us, and we are numbed to them. and every now and then, you have to step back to remind yourself, we have a president of the united states actively are preventing the success of an investigation into serious matters and actively looking to d d d dissuage others from cooperating. >> occasionally, we have to call a time-out and say, wait, this is not how it is supposed to work. mimi rocah, weigh in on that and how the spt trying to influence the cases as they are proceeding. >> well, andrea, it is just a such -- beyond a norm buster. it is so inappropriate for trump to be weighing in on michael cohen's case or on flynn's case and so obvious that he is weighing in based on the sort of the personal harm or favor that particular co-oprators can do

for him sh -- co-op ray tr co-operators h him. and i want to say one thing about the judge in this case, if i could. he is, obviously, doing something unusual. if he does not appear bound by the recommendations, but at the end of the day, it is the judge who has to decide that, and as julia said, he has a lot more information than we do, and he is sentencing him, and clearly taking into account the conduct with respect to flynn having worked on behalf of the turkish

government while he was an official in the united states government, because he questioned the prosecutor and said, could flynn have been charged in that, and so he focused on that, and that is permissible. the judge is allowed to take in to account of conduct. and so i want to be careful with the way we are perceiving him to be rogue. and so you don't want to chill the cooperation, but the judge is doing his job, and as ben pointed out the focus should be on the judge is saying how serious flynn's conduct was here as as opposed to the president just completely trying to minimize it. >> fair point. mimi rocah, thank you. joining us here is kimberly atkins, the washington bureau chief for the "boston herald" and attorney,kimberly, this is an extraordinary proceeding.

and the courtroom is about to pick back up gaiagain, and he u the t-word, treason. >> yes, leading up to this, we had been focus on the extent of michael flynn's cooperation, and why he had a lenient sentencing recommendation for prosecutors and what exactly, it was, and what information he gave in the 19 interviews that was so helpful to mueller's team, and now the judge is really focusinging in on the other side of that and the seriousness of the crimes for which he is receiving that leniency, and it is the judge who does have discretion, and he is not going to have to let him off as prosecutors and defense attorneys want him to go, and he is seeming to be exercising that role, and focusing on that aspect of it very seriously. if i were the defense attorney, i would be very nervous with by that. >> and still waiting for the judge to come in, and we will be getting the e-mails from the

outside and the inside of the courthouse as well. and as you know, we have people inside of the courtroom, and a courtroom artist, but there is no cameras, because of course, it is a federal courthouse. in the white house n the briefing room jeff bgeoff benner colleague there, and what are the rumblings in the white house, because they have a lot on their plate, because they are waiting to see what happened to mike flynn who was the seidman -- side man at the campaign for introducing donald trump and leading shouts of "locker up" at the convention, and then fired allegedly for lying to the the vice president with no mention of the fact that he had, that they had been told that he had lied the fbi, and that it took 18 days to fire him after sally yates, the acting ag first said that you have a serious problem and you have to do something about mike flynn. >> you are right, andrea, and the president started to tweet well wishes to the nationally disgraced adviser, and what account accounts for that with michael flynn and michael cohen both

cooperating and yet the president is calling michael cohen is a rat. so at this point, we don't know why michael flynn lied to the fbi or if he did it at the direction of anyone in the administration to include president trump, but it is certainly a question that you ask when you are look at the fact that president trump has treated michael flynn comparatively with kid gloves. so we certainly know that the president has used this flynn case and tried to turn it into the political cause as a way of r rallying the base against the fbi. andrea. >> and so ken delainian is also outside of the courthouse, and apparently the judge is back into the courtroom, and the defense a moment ago said that flynn wants to proceed with the sentencing today? >> yes. to me? >> yes. >> and so, obviously the defense appears bothered by the conduct they have seen from mike flynn, and even the -- >> ken, let me just interrupt

both of you, because we have an e-mail from inside of the courthouse saying that the judge is confirming that flynn wants to go through with the sentencing, so before we proceed down the rabbit hole, we didn't know if it was a question or affirmation. so a deep breath there. >> that is a very good point, andrea. very good point. so we will have to see -- >> and yes we will -- >> and the next chapter. >> and that is not written as well as a one-sentence e-mail that we aare relying on from th folks inside. so they have come back inside of the courthouse, and he approached the defense again, and apparently trying to confirm

if they want to proceed our take a further break. so while we wait on that, carol lee here as well. and carol, this is a pivotal moment, because in the plea agreement that he signed, just to reiterate, he said that he would not appeal any sentence imposed by the judge. >> right. whatever he happens today if he chooses to go forward with this is going to stick. there is no other out on that which is why it is so interesting that the judge gave him, and is giving him this option the postpone and continue cooperating and hold off on a sentence. i guess that the question there is if the judge is going to be any different if he is this irritated and taking the charges as seriously as he is going to take them, what is the difference if he does postpone, and given the cooperation according to the special counsel he has extensively cooperated and interviewed 19 times. so, you know, we will hopefully

know in minutes how this is going to unfold. >> mimi rocah, the judge is asking a series of questions trying to clarify that he was not suggesting that michael flynn should have been charged with treason, but asking because of all of the conspiracy theories out there saying that he is curious with whether he could have been charge and of course, the prosecutor said that he would not want to discuss that. and the bottom line is as carol lee just said, what is different down the road, and there could be different thing, and a different level of cooperation or different information presented to the judge behind closed doors in camera or redacted as well. but this is a moment of truth for the defense. >> yeah. i mean, one thing to think about is that it is possible that the judge is not necessarily saying more cooperation meaning, you need to go meet with the government more times or bring up new case, but it is an issue of the judge wanting flynn to continue with his cooperation. and he may have, again n the information that we are not

privy to, reason to to be concerned about whether flynn is going to be available, truthful, cooperative on matters that he has told him about, and that he might backtrack and frankly, again, going back to the submission, i can't emphasize enough about how flynn brought this on himself with this admission that he seemed to be trying to make excuses and walk back his acceptance of the responsibility, and not in the legal sense, but in the sense that we think about it. and so the judge may be saying, wait a minute, how do i know that the person is going to be available if and when the government needs him and he can tell that mueller is not done yet, so it is maybe about keeping the leverage over flynn, and again, whether that should be the decision of the judge versus the special prosecutor is open for debate and i acknowledge if i were the prosecutor, i would be frustrated that someone else is trying to make that decision, u

but it is within the judge's per view, and within his job to do that and to the look at everything. so it is -- then again, the judge may know that there are matters that flynn, you know, he has not cooperated on that he could have, and again, we don't know everything that the judge knows. i think that, you know, that he may be really just trying to get flynn to sort of stay with the program, if you will. >> and ben rhodes, out in california, who has been with s us. as a former national security official, as we have been pointing out, you should not, and we should not underplay the significance of what mike flynn was doing leading into the white house, and during the campaign, and leading into the white house, an inside of the white house in those opening days of the administrations regarding reopening the fbi investigation into gulon, the turkish cleric exiled in pennsylvania who has done nothing wrong. i remembered cases where joe biden was with erdogan back in 2015 or 2016 more likely where

erdogan was pressing for the extraditi extradition, and biden in public said at a photo opportunity in turkey, we can't do that. we have laws here, and he has done nothing wrong, and if somebody tells the state department that he has done something wrong, we can extradite, that and so reopening that was riled the fbi, because he was clean. >> and i was in meetings with president obama where president erdogan would come in and rant for an hour about the need nor the united states to turn the over gulon, and what the president said to president erdogan, look, i will have the justice department look into any char charges that you want to make, and we will review the file, but ultimately, i the president c cannot tell the justice department to turn over a u.s. person to a foreign government, and foreign government in turkey who was likely to treat him harshly, and the justice department looked at this and the fbi looked at it and they did not find that he committed a crime to have him extradited. and so what flynn was doing is

extraordinary, and he was not asking them to look into something that had not been investigated. he was asking the justice department to basically come up with agulen, and found we should not extradite him. then a new national security adviser comes in, who is being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the turkish government that wants gulen and he's going to the justice department saying you should take another look at this. you cannot have a better definition of corruption on a very serious national security issue, on a very sensitive relationship, the u.s./turkish relationship. >> jen palmeri, of course, was on the hillary clinton campaign. what is your perspective, watching all of this and eing michael flynn now being supported by prosecutors who say no jail time for someone who was shouting lock her up, lock her up at rallies in 2016? >> supported by the prosecution and also supported by the

president. what happens struck me with michael flynn is that trump has always treated him with kid gloves compared to others, comey, michael cohen, where he has gone hot and cold. he is very concerned with what michael flynn has to say about him. and i suspect that has to do with the fact that michael flynn was his national security adviser. that brings whatever interactions were inappropriate about russia, russian policy, about turkish policy. that brings it into the oval office. it's not something that has to do with the campaign. the other reaction i have seeing what's happening today and with the senate intelligence report, that even that the russian trolls and bots were going after robert mueller and trying to discredit him is how wrong it is to look at this issue through the prism as we often do of how it impacts american politics and

whether or not a development shows that president trump is in serious trouble and how it may play out politically without really appreciating how successful, devastatingly successful the russians have been in doing what i think, and ben would know this even better, trying to do, which is undermine americans' faith in our republic, in our democracy. and they have been very successful at doing that and spreading misinformation, even when they're going after bob mueller and making president trump's arguments, undermining mueller for him and having a lot of americans believe that shows you -- >> jen, i just wanted to -- >> -- what kind of impact this has. i don't think we take it as serious as we should. this is a serious attack on the fundamental principles of our republic. >> jen, i'm going to interrupt you just to say they are

delaying sentencing. for that reason, according to this report from the courtroom, we are prepared to take your honor up on the suggestion of delaying sentencing. so they apparently believe that the investigation, according to ken delanian, if you have this e-mail as well, let's talk about the fact that they're saying that the investigation is very consequential for the nation. he made decisions early on to remain low-profile, did not make public statements, the value of silence was recognized by the counsel's office, because of his rank that would send a signal to others. that was a high standard that was set for him. general flynn has held nothing back in his extensive cooperation with the special counsel's office, replied with every request that has been made as has -- how has his counsel has. this case is still pending and flynn will likely testify in that case. having told that, we are

prepared to take up your suggestion, your honor. ken delanian, what do you -- how do you react to this? >> reporter: my take on this, andrea, it's not for that reason. >> right. >> reporter: it's not because the case is still pending in virginia. this hearing was not going very well for mike flynn. there was every chance his client was about to be sent to jail even if only for a few weeks or months. they're going to pack it in and come back another day when they can say that they have fully cooperated. at the same time, he was making a pitch there that, look, we've told the special counsel everything he has wanted to know. 19 meetings with the special counsel and we, the public, to this day, do not understand the extent and the value of mike flynn's cooperation. and that is a very important factor that is hanging over the entire mueller investigation, because mike flynn was with donald trump at crucial times and very often, he flew with him during the campaign. he was involved with these secret talks to the russian ambassador. so, he certainly has cooperated

and kilner was communicating that to the court. again, they're deciding it's the better part of valor to wait another day, delay the sentencing because clearly they were afraid of what might happen if the judge passed sentence on mike flynn today. andrea? >> jonathan capehart has joined us at the table as well. quite a moment, defense deciding to accept the judge's offer to delay sentencing because clearly he was going to come down with the hammer on mike flynn. >> yeah. this is a pretty extraordinary day. and i just want to echo what both jen palmieri and ben rhodes have been saying today. that even though michael flynn and his team, they're delaying sentencing, he could have gotten maybe a maximum six months, but as we've seen throughout the day with these messages coming in from inside the courtroom, that things weren't going very well and what makes this so important is that we're talking about a person who was the national security adviser to the president of the united states

involved in something that he should have known was illegal and did get himself into trouble. what it says, not only about his conduct but about this administration, and why the president has been so intent on heaping praise on him but not on someone else who has so-called flipped, but someone who is cooperating with federal investigators, that being michael cohen. and so the fact that he has cooperated so extensively with the government, i think it was ken delanian who said we still don't know the extent, the information he has given to the special prosecutor, which is an anvil over the head of the trump administration. >> kimberly, what happens next? >> we watch to see how the president reacts is one thing i'll be looking at. to the fact that michael flynn

has been treated differently, one thing his defense attorney said is one reason for that. he hasn't been speaking publicly the way we've seen michael cohen and other people speaking very publicly about it. so trump has sort of been trying to make the narrative for him through his twitter feed here in a way that he couldn't with michael cohen. we'll see how the president reacts to this. but i think that legally it is time for his attorney to do everything he can to try to convince this judge that his -- about the extent of his cooperation, as much as he can, moving forward and try to secure the best deal he can because this judge is not leaning toward leniency right now. >> apparently they have said we would like -- the defense has just said, mr. kilner we would like an extend sentencing. the judge said it is fine with the court. this sentencing is not going to be resuming for at least 90 days

and there will be a lot of talk, back and forth, i suggest, between the prosecution and the defense as to what to do next and michael flynn, about whether he will cooperate on other issues that may not even be identified. >> right. that's right. you know, again, i do think that what could be going on here is that the judge sensed the this backtracking by flynn and he wants to make sure that flynn continues with his cooperation. and it's probably not lost on the judge that the president of the united states seems to be talking nicely about flynn in contrast to others, and he may be afraid that the president is going to try and pardon flynn, and then flynn will not continue cooperating. it's hard to know exactly what's in the mind of the judge, other than what the judge has said, which is how serious he thinks this conduct is, which it is, as we've all been discussing. and the fact that the cooperation -- the cases that flynn is cooperating in are not

over. everyone seems to acknowledge that. and it is unusual to have someone sentenced before their cooperation is over. in other words, before the trials where they may have to testify, before all the people are charged. and so it seems to me that this is all sort of a sign, one, that there is more to come with mueller in which flynn could be useful, because the judge seems to be signaling that. >> and we also -- i just want to report that there is also -- they have averted a shutdown threat. that should be described at the white house, a briefing at 1:30. of course, we'll be carrying that live. people on the hill, according to garrett haake, republican senators. senator kennedy said something like nothing concentrates the mind like the gallows. it's very clear that the president has conceded that they will come up with a compromise but not push congress to the limit in any case. that's all been happening while we have been here on this extraordinarily dramatic

sentencing, which has now been deferred for at least 90 days. thanks to mimi, ben rhodes, kimberly atkins, jonathan capehart, jennifer palmieri, chuck rosenberg, ken delanian. this has been a special edition of "andrea mitchell reports." here is ali velshi and stephanie ruhle. >> the last hour has not gone the way we expected it to. thank you, andrea. good afternoon to all of you. i'm ali velshi. >> and i'm stephanie ruhle. it is tuesday, december 18th and we've got to begin with major breaking news. >> this was supposed to be judgment day for the president's former national security adviser michael flynn. moments ago, the sentencing was officially delayed for flynn by judge emmitt sullivan. >> retired three-star general pleaded guilty to lying to federal investigators about his communications with the russian ambassador during the presidential transition. then in court