leaving this week, farewell tour. came out with a six-part video series. >> it's on netflix! >> it's not on netflix. >> that's ridiculous. >> he did. it reflects where this republican party is. a lot of people saying it's great. other people saying it's missing the whole point. >> who paid for the netflix series? >> it's taxpayer funded. >> oh, god, i hear another scandal. that does it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace. "mpt daily" starts now. hi, chuck. >> hi, nicolle. you should tell costa there that sounds like something that should be on earth 2. i'm not sure this earth but we will figure it out. >> i'm not going to be streaming it any time soon. >> thank you very much. if it's tuesday, give us any chance, we'll take it and give us any rule, we'll break it. and oh, are we going to do it. good evening, i'm chuck todd

here in washington. welcome to "mpt daily." it's a busy show and all seems to relate to various ways of shutting things down. trump's charity, trump foundation, it's being shut down. the white house is backing off threats of a government shutdown, and the federal judge just shut down michael flynn's attacks on the fbi. and that is where we begin tonight with a question of who is going to stand up to these trump-fueled attacks on the fbi? and how much of a strategy and orchestrated strategy is this? it was a dramatic day at the white house where a federal judge threw the book at the former national security adviser michael flynn in part because he did admit to lying to the fbi and then suggested somehow the agents were trying to ensnare him. it's an argument the president has used to amplify his own attacks on the fbi's russian investigation but it's also an argument that district judge sullivan wanted no part of. he put flynn under oath and asked him point-blank if he

wanted to contest the fbi interview. flynn said, quote, no, your honor. but even when presented with these developments, the white house still doubled down on its apparent claim that flynn was somehow ambushed. >> are you in a position now or would you like to revisit your comments earlier today that the fbi ambushed sflin. >> no, the fbi broke protocol in the way they came in and ambushed general flynn, in the way they questioned him and in the way they encouraged him not to have white house counsel's office present. >> well, perhaps they don't want to let facts get in the way of a good story. for what it's worth today, the former fbi director james comey denied to congress yesterday -- we're just reading the transcript now -- that flynn was, quote, ambushed. remember, even flynn admitted to the federal judge today that he lied to the fbi. this was a bad day for michael flynn and bad day for the president. his lawyers and flynn --

mueller's team were in agreement he did not deserve prison due to his extensive cooperation with the russia investigation. but the judge strongly suggested that he was prepared to send flynn to prison based on the seriousness of his offenses, which in addition to lying to the fbi also included seeing retially acting as a paid foreign agent while he was advising mr. trump. said the judge, arguably, you sold your country out. that's exactly how the judge put it to mr. flynn. now, he offered flynn a chance to delay the sentencing and perhaps continuing operating with investigators, and guess what, flynn took that deal and quickly. all of that happened as the president threw his support behind flynn sort of in a head-scratching way. despite publicly saying just a year ago he had to fire flynn because of the fbi, but after flynn gave the president some perceived ammo to go after the fbi, the president seemed to soften flynn's crimes and that's not something we've gotten a full answer to.

ken delanian was at the courthouse today and msnbc analyst and frank fa glken, a f analyst with the fbi. you were in the courtroom today. let's just put it this way, if you watched fox for the last 72 hours, there was this expectation that this judge was going to martyr, make a martyr out of flynn, and throw the fbi somehow in a perceived, you know, time-out of sorts. couldn't have gone more opposite than that. >> no, and that expectation may have come from the fact that this is a judge who's been very hard on government and prosecutorial misconduct. in the ted stevens corruption case, he really came down on the government. but in this case, michael flynn was a high government official and it was clear that judge sullivan came to the courtroom today to send two messages, one, he's not buying this idea that mike flynn was entrapped by the fbi and he got -- put michael

flynn under oath, which is not normal at a hearing like this, to get him to say yes nark, in he's pleading guilty and no, he wasn't duped by the fbi. that's one message. the second is he's very disturbed by michael flynn's conduct, including the conduct he wasn't charged with, the secret lobbying for the government of turkey. that was the context of you sold out your country and even used the word treason, kind of walked that back after the recess. and he also brought up david petraeus, former cia director. he said he disagreed with the light sentence petraeus got. what i took from that is michael flynn, you're a senior intelligence official. we told you to a higher standard. >> did you get a sense the judge was -- was he going after michael flynn here? michael flynn's lawyers? or was he going after the president? >> he was going after michael flynn. the thing that obviously irritated the judge first is michael flynn appeared to be

beck pedaling on his guilty plea. this was a very important issue in court that the defendant must actually plead guilty and give a factual basis. the judge perceived flynn's filings as essentially saying, hey, i didn't really plead guilty because i did it, i pleaded guilty for the deal. and that's a no-no. so once the judge corrected that issue and put essentially a valid guilty plea on the record, then he turned his ire to other issues with flynn and what the judge perceived as his breach of the public trust. >> frank, clear it up for us here. i know you've been asked this a lot today, but clear it up, give me your definition of protocol when it comes to interviewing somebody of mr. flynn's stature, general flynn we should remind people, retired three-star general at the time, what would protocol have looked like as far as you were concerned? >> yeah, i've done these or led these high-profile interviews before, chuck.

look, they followed the common practice. let's explain it for your viewers. the deputy director of the fbi called flynn at his office in the white house and said, i want to send a couple of agents over to ask you some questions. flynn said, is this going to be about ambassador kislyak? answer, yes. do you want somebody there with you? no. send them right over. in they come. they explain the nature and purpose of the interview. someone -- one of them is taking notes. they go so far as to remind him of conversation that occurred. this should have been a clue, by the way, when an fbi agent -- when you teld an fbi agent i don't remember, maybe, and he repeats to you almost verbatim the conversation you may have had and then you still say, maybe. i don't remember, possibly. that should have been a big clue that they've got you, they've got the conversation. so was protocol followed? yes, for a high-level official, absolutely.

do you memory andize someone when there's sitting in your office? no, you do not. do you have to warn them it's a crime to lie to the fbi? absolutely not. this business of challenging them on the grounds of protocol not being followed is nonsense. >> retiring member of congress, trey gowdy, questioned now the former director of the fbi, james comey, about this exactly. put up a piece of this transcript. mr. gowdy to mr. comey -- why not advise general flynn of the consequences of making false statements to the fbi? here's mr. comey's response. he was an extraordinarily experienced person and so reasonably should be assumed to understand you can't lie to the fbi. second, it's not protocol. the fbi does not do that in noncustodial interviews. and third, we want to find out what the witness will say to you before you heat up an interview by raising the prospect that the witness might be lying to you. frank pa gluzy, anything in there your former boss said that would surprised you? >> no, that's right on the

money. that's how it works, despite whatever you might see on tv or hear other people say, that's how it works. it was a voluntary interview. he could have said no. he could have said i want my foreign present. come back tomorrow, come back another day. i want to do this at another location. but the hubris involved here combined with dishonesty is extremely disturbing and i think that's what got under the judge's skin today. i think he just could not tolerate this attitude and approach from flynn. >> ken dilanian, do we have -- the president tweeted today, when you think about how he has just hammered michael cohen for flipping, michael flynn has flipped. and today let me put up full screen number five here, a trump tweet. good luck today in court to general michael flynn, ken. he tweets. it will be interesting to see what he has to say, despite tremendous pressure being put on him about russian collusion and our greatly obviously highly successful political campaign. there was no collusion.

what is this flynn flirtation thing? >> this is so strange because michael flynn told his story. so if it's bad for the president, there's no chance to change it. it's locked in. but one dark possibility here is michael flynn has not incriminated the president and somehow the president learned this, possibly through the attorney general, who is in position to be briefed on this investigation. we have very little visibility into what he's actually doing with regard to this investigation. but you're right, michael flynn has cooperated extensively. he was one of the four original people under counterintelligence by the fbi, going back to july 2016. we don't even know the reason why that was other than he had gone to russia and was paid by rt. we don't know what he's given them on russia, on the meetings with kislyak, on the outreach with jared kushner, back channel through the russian embassy, all of that stuff. it's a big, black hole. it could be horrible for the president or it might not be. >> let's put out the facts here, danny. the judge himself used the word treason, walked it back. was so upset you're traded to

your country and yet mr. mueller is recommending no prison time. how helpful was general flynn? he must have been extraordinarily helpful that if a federal judge is sitting there going, i can't believe -- essentially, i can't believe the deal you're getting, i wouldn't be giving you this deal, how much help does that mean he probably gave to mr. mueller? >> for michael flynn to get that substantial assistance as is determined by the government in their sole discretion, worthy enough to give that 5k1 motion, substantial assistance, which is the most powerful downward movement on a sentence, michael flynn had to be completely forthcoming. he had to bear his soul. but what concerned me about what the judge said today is, number one, a probation only sentence, both parties were on board with this. part two, looking at michael flynn's sentencing guidelines, even without cooperation, he was at the lowest possible level of the sentencing guidelines. zero to six months.

with that cooperation, with substantial assistance, he should have been an easy probation sentence. so when the judge intimated in not too subtle words he probably not get a probation sentence, he would be incarcerated, that was a clear signal something abnormal was going on. most similarly situated defendants will get a straight probation sentence. >> frank, obviously, you've had experience with counterintelligence investigations, in particular which i assume a, they're the most difficult and they do get into this, these very tricky situations. have you seen anything like this, though, where it seems as if the judge didn't like the deal that everybody agreed to? >> well, i've certainly seen judges not like deals. but with regard to the counterintelligence aspect of this, i really believe this is unprecedented. and here's why, the pervasiveness of foreign

influence in this short-lived administration so far is unprecedented. it has reached the national security adviser, family members of the president, the attorney of the president, on and on and on, and the recent report this week of the pervasiveness of social media penetration by russia, everywhere we turn on any social media platform, this is a time in history that will be studied and actually unfortunately is a haushinger of things to come with regard to information war fair and foreign influence. we are seeing something we have not sign before. >> when it comes to information war fair, warfare, it seems the latest target is the fbi. while i pause the conversation here, i will get into that in my next break. thank you guys. it's been a long day. thanks you're warming up here. up ahead -- the president's attack on the fbi. they're in a league of their own and appear to be strategically coordinated. we'll be right back.

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welcome back. as we said, a federal judge today shut down michael flynn's attacks on the fbi and perhaps the president's attacks. those attacks mirror much of what we hear frequently from president trump. now there's more evidence that the trump's campaign against the fbi was, well, a bit more sophisticated, more targeted and maybe more insidious than anybody thought. according to vox, paul manafort advised the president and senior white house officials in the early days of the administration how to undermine and discredit the fbi as they were going about

this investigation. and there's a new report that was prepared for the senate intelligence committee which showed that russia was also trying to undermine and discredit the fbi in 2017. russian operatives targeted special counsel robert mueller through fake accounts on social media. the news russian operatives used division and disparagement to create and amplify the narrative that the whole investigation was nonsense, comey and mueller were somehow corrupt and the russian conspiracy sories were, quote, weird conspiracies pushed by, quote, liberal cry babies. let me welcome msnbc analyst frank figliuzzi is back with us and david ignatius, columnist at "the washington post" and msnbc contributor and the guy who sort of broke the entire michael flynn aspect of this story wide open, in case you can't remember what happened way back in 2017. i know that's way back in the memory banks here.

sarah huckabee sanders went off on the fbi. i want to play the rant, frankly, and, frank, get you to respond to it on the other side. here it is. >> we know for a fact the fbi engaged in an outrageous amount of political bias. the fact that anybody could deny that there was political bias within the fbi under, particularly, james comey's leadership is irrational. >> talking about rats and people crab rating witnesses with the fbi -- >> or people who are dishonest and lie, seems like that term. >> do you think it's preserves confidence in the rule of law for the american people? >> certainly, and that's why he's appointed new people to help do exactly that, whether it's director wray, new attorney general, somebody that can come in and be very transparent throughout this process. >> frank, i know we're so used to this new normal, the sitting administration attacking its own federal government. but i cannot -- it still is

shocking to me that a person standing behind that podium went after the fbi as rough as she did as did. as a former fbi agent, your response. >> it's still painful to hear but i believe i creasingly the american people are seeing right through that trageis strategy b it's self-serving for the president. this is a dream come true for our adversaries, the russian intelligence service, chinese intelligence service, they spend years developing strategies to undermine our institutions, undermine the fbi. they now have a presidential administration that is not only receptive to what they're doing but they're never pushing back, they're on board fully. and the lies that continue to come out about the fbi have to be called out. from whether it's the trump claiming that the fbi broke into his lawyer's office when it was actually a federal judge that

signed a search warrant that caused them to knock on a door and execute that search warrant, whether it's that the fbi somehow is out to get this president and, in fact, mueller of course is a special counsel who is republican appointed by republican president to the fbi director, none of this rings true. and the more they keep saying this in the face of truth and facts, i think more the person people are realizing this doesn't add up. >> david ignatius, as i reminded people, you were the first one to sort of blow this story open and get people to google the logan act and learn about it. but, i'm sorry, george popolopodus, his cooperation agreement got hung up by somehow blaming the fbi. paul manafort had been playing games with cooperating, not cooperating and somehow also giving advice to the white house, maybe to attack the apparently -- according to vox, attack the fbi. mike flynn cooperating at times with mr. mueller but helping the

president with it. look, one plus one plus one may not equal three here but it looks weird >> there certainly has been a strategy by the administration, by the people you mentioned to get the public scepticism about the fbi to challenge it, question it. i thought was frank just said was absolutely right and disturbing. this is undermining a key part of our national security and lawsuit enforcement. what's fascinating is judge sullivan in responding to this today was really angry at this effort by flynn's lawyers to cast doubt on the fbi interview that led to the accusation that he lied to the fbi. so in a sense, that push-back effort just got michael flynn in a lot of trouble. and maybe it's a message to others in the administration and flynn himself, you can push this only so far before a federal judge and other people begin to react. >> we talked about this friday. i said first of all, there's

been this report that somehow flynn was shopping for a pardon after all of this was done. i think that got shut down today because there's nothing to be pardoned from perhaps yet. obviously, he's got the power if he wanted pardon him for crimes he may commit, but something is fishy here. and i think the judge sniffed it out >> between trump and flynn. >> yep. >> of course. you take the fact the president this morning started the morning by tweeting well wishes to michael flynn, who has cooperated with prosecutors for longer than michael cohen has, yet michael cohen is a rat. we don't know why michael flynn lied. we don't know whether or not he was directed by any members of the administration to include donald trump but there are all of these questions as to why donald trump is treating michael flynn with kid gloves. and the point about the president's retorhetorical atta on the fbi, one glimmer of hope is it's producing diminished returns. there was a poll out this week -- >> our poll. >> that the fbi is not being

truthful. >> only michelle obama is more popular right now, to what it's worth. >> if you want to take flip's strategy, clearly backfired legally and whether it backfired politically is a separate question in term of what his end game is. only if there's a pardon from the president or just being welcomed back into certain republican circles. but i think that the other piece of this is that sarah sanders made a very clear distinction when she talked about cohen versus flynn and said the difference is his lies were not about the president. all of this raises they of what the president knows, he seems to know something and something is driving this and when it comes to specifically flynn and, you know, today they really got -- whatever they're strategy was, it really got derailed. >> frank, as an investigator, i got to think, you must be

thinking, well, boy, this makes me want to reinvestigate this. what's fishy to you about -- about this sort of odd relationship that flynn and the president seem to still have? >> yeah, there's a calculated decision that flynn made to lie to two fbi agents sitting in front of him, and that is a major decision by the former head of the defense intelligence agency, a former general. so my question is, what is it that caused him to say, well, i could get busted for lying to the fbi or i could give up the truth about my relationships and conversations with russia, i'll choose to possibly get busted for lying to the fbi. that's the mystery that needs to get solved and understand when trump comes out and supports flynn publicly, i think there's two things going on, and one of them is that flynn knows what trump was doing while in office. he's a cooperator who can

identify bad conduct while trump was president. the other thing is, of course, you already said flynn supports the narrative of trump that there's a big, bad fbi that tricked me into lying and tricks other people. so it's russia, it's money, and it's real-time acts by this president in office that flynn has in his head, and can give up. >> if you were mueller, frank, would it make you question your cooperation agreement with flynn? >> well, there's a couple of things i think mueller is scratching his head about today, which is what's the impact on other people that might cooperate? roger stone, jerome corsi and others. if they think that a judge can actually wedge his way in to our arrangements and our discussions regarding getting off easy if you cooperate. so that's number one. number two, he could turn lemons into lemonade. he could say to flynn, look, this judge isn't going for it, so there's those two things you never told me about, you got to come clean now. so you avoid prison.

he could turn this around. >> what do you make of this? it feels like there's some part of this story, right, paul manafort seems to be willing to not tell mueller about, mike flynn seems to be willing to. they're trying to find ways to have it both ways. >> there's a process of signaling going on, some of it is open. the president's tweets, his comments, he's sending messages to cooperators, possible cooperators. >> he called them signals. >> frankly, yes, i think that's what we're watching, byrdsong, they're signaling where they are, letting each other know what the landscape is. that's what we are seeing. i have to be honest like frank, like you, i don't get it. there is a piece of this that we're not seeing and you're point that the president has a direct pipeline into the mueller investigation to know what's going on may be the central fact. >> it is, it feels like hiding in place sight except you can't see it. it's like there's something out

there, and we just don't know what it is. i don't know that we'll really know any time soon exactly what it is. >> is it fair, geoff, that the white house strategy right now is just trash the fbi any chance it gets? >> it's not fair but that's page one out of the trump play book. attack the investigators. that's the way they approached this from day one >> is that there sort of -- knee-jerk response any time we have questions about an investigation? >> absolutely. it's not just having to do with the russia investigation, it has to do with questions about potential house democratic oversight, to attack nancy pelosi, add up siff. never talk about the underlying issue, always attack the investigators. >> frank figliuzzi, thank you for giving me a couple of blocks today and geoff, carol and david, you guys have to stick around. still ahead -- there's no time in baseball for shutdowns. plus, why i'm obsessed with washington ace obsession with what this turtle represents. kayla: our dad was in the hospital. josh: because of smoking.

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welcome back. tonight i'm obsessed with washington's shutdown battle royale, the epic clash of the political titans. in other words -- >> that's where we got a laggerhead. >> we're at laggerheads. >> laggerheads. >> willinger laggerheads. >> they're in this laggerheads. >> laggerheads.

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there's certainly a number of different funding sources that we've identified that we can use, that we can couple with the money that would be given through congressional appropriations that would help us get to that $5 billion that the president needs in order to protect our borders. >> so you're exploring those and you think legally you can do it? >> absolutely. >> welcome back. did you hear that? it sure sounds like the white house is giving up on giving $5 billion for a border wall in the year-end spending bill. a far cry from the president saying he would be proud to shut down the government to get the money for a border wall. but with a shutdown three days away, are we inching any closer to a actual deal? the republicans rejected the latest offer calling it a billion dollar slush fund for the president yet senate majority leader mitch mcconnell

is still sounding confident they're close to a solution. >> yeah, i am. >> for what it's worth, three senators are telling us they think they're going to get a continuing resolution, the old cr, watch out for some washington speak, it's coming to a news division near you. with me now is the senate majority whip, dick durbin. senator from illinois, good to see you, sir. >> good to be with you, chuck. >> bottom line is the white house gave up on their ask for $5 billion. zh mean shutdown averted? >> i hope so. we haven't quite reached that point yet. we at least have a conversation under way. last week it was a standoff and the president proud to shut down the government, something i have never heard the president say and now we have this week a hint of conversation. we're not there yet. >> let me play for you something sarah sanders said today at the very brief white house briefing that she held about paying for the wall. take a listen.

>> the president has been clear that the usmca deal would provide additional revenue. through that deal, that would show that mexico has paid for the wall. >> the trade benefits, if there are any, don't go to the treasury. >> he said the revenue provided and money would be saved through the usmca deal, we could pay for the wall four times over and by doing that new trade deal, we have the opportunity to pay for the wall. >> senator durbin, here's the part of this i'm trying to understand, are we building the wall or not? >> we're building barriers on the border that the experts tell us are needed and virtually none of them want a solid wall that the president stands for. they want physical barriers they can see through, putting more technology on the border, people on the border, things that will be effective keeping america safe. >> the president implied his wall is also being bit right now. how would you characterize that -- that fact?

>> well, i would disagree with the president. his wall as i understood it to be paid for by mexico incidentally was a wall in the medieval sense, big, old concrete wall into the heavens and i don't know how he was going to accomplish that but that's what he said in the campaign. that's what we returned to. but those walls by and large are always subject to tunnels and ladders. so the experts have told us there's a better way to keep america safe. why is the president stuck on a 19th century solution to a 21st century challenge? >> do you believe we're providing enough money or would you be willing to provide more money for border security? >> i think we should provide more. let's be specific, one out of five vehicles coming into the united states, cars and trucks, are being scammed, something called a z-portal. when i asked the experts, why aren't we doing more? we need $300 million so we scan more of these vehicles so we can detect firearms, we can detect

narcotics, we can detect smuggling or kidnapping going on there. $300 million. i will tell you what, a lot of democrats would join in spending that kind of money. that's a sensible investment in border security, not some 2,000-mile wall. >> there is one decent seems like bipartisan agreement that's happening here, and i guess i'm going to ask because i'm still not sure it's actually going to pass. criminal justice reform. there seems to be more confidence today and this week that this is going to pass before the end of the year. why do you have that confidence? >> there are three amendments we face from senator cotton, and i will tell you two of those amendments have been discredited. the crime victims groups have come forward and said vote against it. if cotton tells you he's helping victims of crime, he's not. with that kind of opposition, two of the amendments are stumbling at this point. the third, i believe we have the votes to defeat as well. it's critically important we do. everybody from top to bottom, democrats to republicans would want this bill, they

characterize this cotton amendment as a poison pill. it's not going to help us reach our goal of real prison reform. >> what should the public take away from the fact despite all of the rush language that many use about each other these days, democrats about the president, the president about democrats, that you guys did get this agreement. should we take away from this, that you guys can compartmentalize some of this stuff? or is this just a happy coincidence that probable wloipt -- probably won't be repeated in 2019? >> i think it can be repeated 20 times over. chuck grassley, mike lee, cory booker and durbin are an unlikely team politically but we brought together support from police and prosecutors and the american civil liberties union. it can be done if you're patient and respectful, you have a good goal that serves this country, and you're willing to work at it. it's taken us five years. this is not an overnight venture, but i think we can get it done. >> what should the trump white house take away from this?

what should jared kushner take away from this experience? >> kushner has been a very important partner in this from the start, because of his own family experienced he wanted prison reform. i have worked with him for over a year and a half. he's been a good-faith partner in this effort. he's heed in many, many ways, particularly lining up republican support. so i find him guy-to person when it comes to substantive legislative challenge >> so does this mean that's a conduit for you going forward? you would go -- if there's -- do you believe that jared kushner's the key, for instance, to getting your gang of eight bill revitalized on immigration? >> i don't know the answer to that. i wouldn't presume it. we have really focused all of our work together on this criminal justice issue. we've not gone too far afield. there are so many things we could consider. but i can tell you in this instance, he went into his father-in-law and convinced him to have a press conference to endorse this bill. it was a significant move forward on the republican side of the aisle. >> senator dick durbin, democrat

from illinois, shut down in criminal justice reform, thank you for coming on and sharing your view. >> no loggerheads. >> and don't forget your nothing burger to go with it. that's for free, of course. up ahead -- a soon to be senator who will be doing it her way. can determine your future. your school. your job. your dreams. your problems. (indistinct shouting) but at the y, we create opportunities for everyone, no matter who you are or where you're from. for a better us, donate to your local y today. life isn't a straight line. things happen. and sometimes you can find yourself heading in a new direction. but at fidelity, we help you prepare for the unexpected with retirement planning and advice for what you need today

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from mayhem like me. mayhem is everywhere. so get an allstate agent. are you in good hands? welcome back. time now for "the lid." panelists back. geoff, carol, david. we joked at some point the the president was going to blink when it came to the government shutdown showdown and declare victory. seems like exactly what they decided to do, we can't win, therefore we won. >> the president had to be seen at least putting up a fight. the whole shutdown thing hit the buzz saw of base politics. clearly we know border security, that's the one issue where president trump derives his most solid connection to his core supporters and democrats clearly were not going to give him a money for a border wall from sea to shining sea, especially because they believe it not to be a viable policy issue but also because they believe it stems from his anti-immigrant,

xenophobic campaign pitch. so whatever comes from this agreement, and nothing focuses the mind for lawmakers like having to work over the holidays, we will probably get a cr by the end of the week, but whatever comes from this has to have both sides saving face in sides saving face in some way. >> do they get it? >> it looks like they will but trump is the wild card as usual. you remember back in march when they thought they had a spending bill deal, then he tweeted he was going to veto it and everyone was scrambling. had to get him to sign it. you know. but if they do and it goes to february, that's going to coincide with the need to raise the debt limit. then you get into a whole, we're back in 2011 fiscal cliff. it's going to be much bigger of a battle than if they punt. >> you know, david et al., do you take a step back, and why aren't we looking at the criminal justice reform success and saying, oh, these guys are going to figure out how to work it. none of us are because it does seem as if, yeah, this is an accident.

jared kushner happens to be interested in it, therefore it gets done without him. by the way, that to me says a lot, that the one person that can do anything bipartisan is jared kushner. >> it was fascinating. dick durbin described kushner as his go-to guy. i haven't heard something like that in quite a while. this is not the season for compromise. we'd all love to see a government that works again, political parties that can get along, can pass legislation. we know that we're just not in that moment, that the rough edges are getting rougher in a lot of ways. and i've been -- if we go back to the politics of brinksmanship, as carol said, we have to shut down, fiscal cliff, the public is going to be totally sick of it. we're almost addicted to that right now. >> trump is. i feel like trump likes the drama of it all, then he comes in and says, i'm going to create a crisis and save you from it. >> yes. >> the china trade war! let me start it and i'll try to

end it. >> that's the playbook. but this is -- we've seen in past fights, budget fights, particularly debt limit fights, this is when the markets get involved, i mean, it becomes much bigger. if he's going to create a big crisis early next year, the stakes are going to be higher. >> this is the first time he found out that his party has its limits, yeah. >> again, we're seeing the president is a man on the cliff, and the republicans aren't willing to go off that cliff behind him. when he was -- last week he said, i'll probably shut down the government, there's crickets on capitol hill. people were confused. when the white house told us they were negotiating some agreement to end this border wall impasse, republican senators on the hill said, if that's true they're not talking to us. i mean, it's stunning. >> i feel like they know they can just tell their base, well, they've done it, and they think that's enough. >> well, the border wall began as a slogan, it's going to die

as a slogan. i feel like this one's just about run out of gas. >> i thought j.k. rowling of all people hit it on the head. she compared the brexit situation in the u.k. to the wall, a symbol, right? it's not real. nobody wanted to leave. the u.k. would love to leave europe, except it can't, it's stuck in that continent, they can't change continents, just like this wall. >> trump will have to say, it's a terrible shame, it's a disgrace we haven't completed the wall, but at least we've got x, y, z, and he'll declare victory. >> he's going to have to blame somebody too. with democrats taking control of the house, he can start to kind of move and blame them a little bit more. and create a foil. but i found their explanations for mexico paying for the wall to become just baffling. >> they don't care if they're a punch line, do they? >> i mean, to hear sarah sanders saying from the podium that the

u.s., cmexico, canada -- >> we're not doing ymca. it's nafta 2.0. >> that that's going to generate revenue? it's just a lot of voodoo. it will be interesting to see if the president eventually fully caves on what is his signature campaign promise. >> jeff, do they tell you their spin with a straight face? or are they smiling? do you see the wink? no, the answer is mexico's paying for the wall, jeff! >> no, there isn't. senator durbin spoke to this. there are border patrol officers who say they do not want a concrete wall. you have to be able to see what's on the other side of that wall. in places like california, arizona -- >> i thought we were building a see-through wall. others call it a fence. >> right. but again, that's why people make the point saying a concrete wall isn't the solution. metal barriers, perhaps, you can see through to the other side, drones, law enforcement. but this notion of a medieval concrete wall from one coast to

the other is preposterous. >> the important thing is his base knows he cares about the wall, that he cares about this issue. >> cares about border security, that's right. >> it's a mistake for democrats to just toss the border security issue aside. if democrats are smart, next year they'd come up with their version that's a sensible alternative to the wall and push it forward. >> i thought that senator durbin's answer to you, maybe you can work with jared kushner to revive your old bill, and he basically said, yeah, that's funny, no. >> i'll tell you this it's funny you bring this up. i've got to go i'm running out of time. if you look at polling and take away 18 to 34-year-olds, the wall is evenly divided among all age groups 35-plus. something for democrats to think about. you guys get to go home. up ahead, putting the show in showdown. there is nothing we won't try, trust me.

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in case you missed it, we were, maybe, on the verge of a shutdown showdown. >> the government shutdown showdown. >> shutdown showdown. >> shut down showdown. >> shutdown showdown. >> we love alliteration. do you remember the last government shutdown showdown in january? one word, boring. where was the drama? where was the suspense? america, we deserve better. we need excitement, swagger! we need a western!

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> you always use mitch, and yes, they take that as a compliment. maybe we won't do it as a western. that's all for tonight. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now, you're back! >> i'm back, baby. >> good to have you back. >> i was gone, was it a busy week? i don't know. >> here's the thing. it always is. and literally the first day you're back, it's brand-new all over again. like you missed nothing. >> it's 2018 and i have a hunch it might be what 2019 is like as well. >> i have a feeling. our top story, let's be clear, it wasn't supposed to be a cliffhanger. it was not designed to be