saying they are shaken by what they saw today and chaos the word of the evening. a lot more to come. you've been watching "the beat with ari melber." don't go anywhere because "hardball" with chris matthews continues next. chaos. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews from washington. we're watching breaking news. all of it shows a white house in chaos. today president trump followed the lead of rush limbaugh forcing a government shutdown over funding for his border wall. in just the last hour general jim mattis announced he's leaving and hanging over it all nbc news is reporting tonight that the mueller investigation is steam rolling toward a conclusion reportedly by mid

february. first stop, trump's border wall fight. we live in a country where with these people call the shots. they are the ones who told president trump not to sign the bill to keep the government open. >> it's a textbook example of what the drive by media calls compromise. trump gets nothing and the democrats get everything, including control of the house. >> it'll just have been a joke presidency that scammed the american people, enraged, you know -- amused the populists for a while. you will you'll have no legacy at all. >> i think not funding the wall, the wall, the wall, the wall has to be built. >> the president tonight made sure they knew he heard them loud and clear. >> i've made my position very clear. any measure that funds the government must include border security. has to. not for political purposes but

for -- for our country, for the safety of our community. this is not merely my campaign promise, this is the promise every lawmaker made. >> but up until this morning it was expected that the government would remain open. all that changed, as trump was bombarded by the fuselage from the right. that's all that happened. the scene was reportedly in turmoil. a person close to the president described him as 100% in a tail spin. republicans on capitol hill were left in the dark about what the president would do next. trump tried to shift the blame to the republican leaders. he tweeted this morning, i was promised a wall and the border security by leadership. it didn't happen. republican house leaders were called to the white house this afternoon where they were unable to convince the president to take the spending bill that's already passed the senate. >> we just had a very long, productive meeting with the president. the president informed us that he will not sign the bill that

came up from the senate last evening because of his legitimate concerns for border security. >> that comes as trump personally called rush limbaugh to let him know the news. >> just received clearance. the president has gotten word to me that he is either getting funding for the border or he's shutting the whole thing down. >> and now house republicans are left with few options. if they pass a bill that includes the president's border wall funding it will surely fail in the senate where republicans lack the 60 votes they need. there's no plan b on that at this point so it looks like the government will face at least a partial shutdown tomorrow night at midnight. that's friday night. and joining me right now is carlos corbello, donna edwards and robert kosta, national political reporter for the washington post. robert, thank you for coming on tonight. this is a strange, chaotic night

in our country. mattis is leaving. the government's about to shut down and the president seems to be taking the lead of the hard right media listening to rush limbaugh slamming him for allowing the government to stay open without the wall being put up and ann coulter, my god. as was laura ingraham. explain why the president has elephant ears for the right wing media. >> it's a chaotic night here in the newsroom at the post, chris. i feel like we're rewriting tomorrow's story by the hour due to all of this turbulence, the changing story. the bottom line is that this is a president under siege, a president who governs in part by watching television to see where his base is going and he saw his base breaking with him on the eve of divided government and he's thrusting his government toward a shutdown to make a point, a political point that he's with his core voters. >> he's listening to the media,

rich limbaugh, lead the people. is rush limbaugh the chicken or the egg here? is he telling his constituency where to go or is he listening to them? i get the sense that the hard right media are telling a president who represents 45 to 50% of the country what to do. the media can't tell 50% what to do. the media even on the hard right successful, big audience, right wing audiences at rush limbaugh's radio show, fox, the big shows, they don't represent more than 5% of the country or 10%. why is he thinking they represent the country? >> this is a president who doesn't come out of congress, has never governed until he was elected to the presidency. chris, at the capitol all last night lawmakers were telling me they thought the leadership had backed the president away from a shutdown, that it could have some kind of short-term compromise and live to fight another day next year over a border wall but the president listening to limbaugh, watching fox news both at night and in the morning, he's trying to tweet to signal to his base,

don't break with me. it was not only ann coulter, it was mark meadows, north carolina congressman and a whole chorus of people on the right. >> well, moments ago democratic leaders chuck schumer, nancy pelosi laid the responsibility of the shutdown squarely on the feet of the president. let's watch them. >> the president is doing everything he can to shut the government down. you have to ask the question, why? does he not believe in governance? does he not care about the american people? doesn't he know that the economy is uncertain? hasn't he followed the stock market that he likes to brag about sometimes? there's something wrong with this picture. >> unfortunately, president trump was attacked this morning and last night by the hard right and fearful he backed off his commitment to sign this bill. >> let's talk about it with

chuck schumer, i think he's got it just right. it's the way we all saw it today in our newsroom. he's listening to the talkers from the right. i keep reminding people, left or right, that when you're in the media, you're very much passionate about the news, you're talking to progressives, activists, you recognize that they are not 50%. he has to talk, the president, it seems to me 45% of his own people and he's listening to limbaugh who represents 11 million people on a good day. >> that's right, chris. these unelected officials, they're influential. they're unelected. no one has voted them into office. they are making big decisions. a lot of republican members of congress, i can tell you that probably a majority of my republican colleagues do not agree with this decision. a majority of my republican colleagues believe the right thing to do is to pass the bill that the senate passed unanimously. and with regards to who's at fault here, i think the president has left very little question because he said last

week in his office that he would be the one that's responsible for shutting down the government and he has now put us on that path because even if the house tonight passes the bill with the border funding that's unacceptable to the senate, it's going nowhere. so we're walking right into a dead end. >> donna, you know the difference between commentary and government because you've done both. in this case there is going to be an opening of the government at some point, maybe not tomorrow night, maybe not after christmas, new year's, whenever, but they'll eventually re-open. there's not going to be a wall. what is going to happen here? it seems like the market could keep going down. this could be a long term stalemate where nothing gets agreed to. >> there isn't going to be a wall an even if -- you know, say you go to a government shutdown like the one we had in 2013, 2014 t will cost the economy $25 billion over the course of that time and so -- and it doesn't -- the numbers don't get better for the president because in january

then he's dealing with a democratic house. >> let me explain. why does it cost the government? >> it costs -- it costs money because, one, you lose the money that you lose because you've got workers who are out of work. two, you lose -- you lose money because there's a whole bunch of business that the government does that it just can't do. >> by the way -- >> that's like traffic. it slows everything down. >> we know the president catches up on fox news. here's a taste of what he's watching. >> the president should veto this bill. this breaks a promise with his supporters. everybody looking at this views this as odius. >> we're right on this issue. this is a fight worth having. >> i'm troubled by what's going on. i feel like the republicans have caved in again. i think the president should dig in his heels. i'm a little bit disappointed that there's been a mixed message going on. >> this is a fumble and we need to make sure that the president stays firm and a lot of people

are very nervous this morning about whether the president will cave or not. >> this was the top issue, why people voted not just for this president before this administration and it continues to be a top concern for voters across the country. >> robert, talk about this, the executive time the president calls it when he listens to this stuff. does he just turn on the tube, turn on fox, check the other cable stations? what does he do, walk away steaming? what's his reaction? he seems to be in this case getting his marching orders from rush and ann coulter? >> during the campaign the president used to tell me and other reporters that he'd watch television to make sure he knew where the news was going and he'd try to jump into it like it was a river so instead of paying for advertising he was always reacting to the news. that's why now even as president two years in regardless of what advisors tell him about the whip count on capitol hill, he's always keeping an eye on the television.

where is the news cycle? where is that chyron? how can he adjust it? when he sees them going a certain direction, he may try to jump in against all of the advice of those around him to try to change the news and change what he thinks is his policy and his perspective. >> what happened last night? what happened with syria? i mean, i think he's taken his lead from rand paul, people like me are against it. it's unusual for him to break -- his behavior seems uneven lately. a little dodgy lately. he's jumping around. i'm going to mar-a-lago, i'm not going to mar-a-lago. i'm letting the government stay open, i'm nclosing the government. i'm getting out of syria. >> pull it back. he's looking at divided government and from the border wall to afghanistan to syria he's trying to check the box and all of these signature campaign promises. remember during the campaign he wanted to shrink the american footprint abroad.

he's trying to tell his base with all of these moves regardless of the consternation at the pentagon and elsewhere that he's ticking off those boxes for his political base as they get ready for the whirlwind that's going to be 2019. >> how's it going to look, donna, to see the president of the united states in 75 degree florida teeing off? may not go tomorrow but he's going to go sooner or later. >> it's going to look like it sounded from his office, that he's proud to shut the government down. people are going to start feeling the reverb racgragserat. he went to bed, cut a deal with senate republicans and then got up this morning and is easily swayed by the last people who were on the news. this is erratic. it's chaotic and it fits with a president who just doesn't really have a handle on governance anymore, not that he ever did actually. >> anybody that has money in the stock market is having a bad time right now because

especially old people and 401ks, rich people, anybody who has money in there. trump has always been mr. cheerleader. it's got to be the back story here. every day 500 points, every day. >> chris, here's the bottom line. the president ran on border security. i think he has every right to insist that we invest more at the border. he did run on the issue and he did win the election. what he doesn't understand or what some people around him don't want to allow him to understand that, if he wants that, he's going to have to compromise. there's a very symmetrical solution out there. more border security. we proposed that 1678921 of our colleagues in the house voted for it. half republicans. no democrats voted for it. that's the solution not demanding my way or the highway. >> i think you're right but i think you have to go further saying comprehensive -- >> i'm all for it. >> people have been here 10, 20 years. nobody's going to go home. just got to deal with some of the illegal hiring and a lot of

things have to be dealt with. thank you. they don't want to do it. thank you all for offering reasonable scentrism on that. is that all right? >> i think so. >> robert kosta, close to the president. i mean in reporting him. coming up another high profile departure from the trump administration. is this in response to trump's decision? it must have something to do with syria last night. cause and effect look like it's here, although we can argue about syria. late-breaking news by the way on the status of the mueller investigation. we told you a moment ago is the special counsel about to wrap it up? that's the word from nbc news. looks like sometime in february we're going to get the big report. and to sign or not to sign, trump's in a pickle with his stop-gap spending measure aimed at a funding measure will he tore bead doe this bill? the joy and reassurance our political leaders are capable of providing. did you see the former president

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welcome back to "hardball." more now on a major story breaking. president trump announced defense secretary james mattis will be quitting at the end of february. nbc news saying general mattis met with the president earlier today and told him he'd be leaving due to a difference of opinion on some issues. this comes one day, of course, after the president announced his plans to withdraw troops from syria. nbc doesn't know if the topic of syria came up in their meeting today. senator lindsey graham said that mattis had told him it wasn't the right time to leave syria. in his striking resignation letter to the president today which he hand delivered this morning mattis wrote, you have the right to make a secretary of defense whose views are better aligned with yours citing differences between their

approaches whose countries whose strategic interests are in tension with ours and stressing that my views on treating allies with respect and being clear-eyed about both malign actors and strategic competitors are strongly held and informed by over four decades of immersion in these issues. after the announcement today illinois republican congressman adam ki nzinger tweeted that's what happens when you ignore sound military advice. and an official told nbc news that the wheels are coming off in the trump administration. the wheels are coming off. i'm joined by chris coons. thank you for joining us. what did you make of mattis? >> thank you. >> what did you think the difference was? sometimes it doesn't matter whether you are pushed or you jump, because in the end its he pretty clear to both of you you aren't getting along, as i read that exact passage i got a lump

in my throat. he is one of the most seasoned, most respected military leaders in modern american history. he's given encouragement and reassurance to our allies, strong and steely eyed leadership to our armed forces and he has stood down our enemies and adversaries in combat commands over years and if he has that clear and that sharp a break with our president in terms of their strategic views, that compounds my grave concern from yesterday's abrupt announcement by president trump of an ill-considered withdrawal of our troops from syria, a decision that will simply hand control of a wide swath of syria to iran, to russia, and to bashar al assad. i think that was a terrible decision and i think secretary mattis decided to resign following that terrible decision by our president. i think this is a moment for republican and democratic senators when we likely gather again in washington tomorrow to reconsider the path that we're on here in terms of our national

security and our president's leadership. >> do you think those words in his letter referred to those adversaries? was he talking about russia, china, north korea generally in the globe or do you think he was talking specifically about those in the area of syria in the letter? >> there's also news reports, chris, that the president has asked the pentagon to draw up plans to withdraw from afghanistan. my hunch is that the decision to withdraw from syria and other moves president trump has made with regard to north korea and potentially afghanistan in kbi led secretary mattis to conclude that president trump doesn't have a well-grounded or well connected view of how to work with our adversaries and allies. that's what i read in the letter of resignation. >> nbc news is saying the trump/mat tigs relationship had been teetering. pausing u.s. military exercise with south korea and space

force. what do you know as a member of the senate and foreign relations, what do you know about what happened that led to the decision to pull the 2,000 troops out of syria? was that something so abrupt that he couldn't call up his pentagon chief and tell him, guess what, i'm thinking of withdrawing our troops from syria? how did it happen? do you know? >> what i know is that a number of my more senior colleagues were not informed and were not consulted and my strong hunch from this resignation letter is that president trump also either failed to consult with the most senior levels of the armed forces and the department of defense and the intelligence community or ignored their strong advice. either way, this is a sharp break from what would be responsible practice by a president. i'll remind you, chris, president trump is our first national leader to have no previous experience either in military service or elected office and when he first came into office he benefitted from the advice of a number of folks like general mcmaster, general

kelly and general mattis who were widely respected and well-grounded in national security policy. this abrupt resignation by secretary mattis should give all of us pause particularly following such a bombshell announcement as our president's announcement that he intends to abandoned the kerds and hand over much of syria to iran, turkey and syria. >> thank you so much. in october president trump said on "60 minutes" that mattis was a good guy, but notably said that he thought he was a democrat. strange thing to say, but listen. >> what about general mattis? is he going to leave? >> well, i don't know. he hasn't told me that. >> do you want him to leave? >> it could be that he is. i think he's sort of a democrat, if you want to know the truth, but general mattis is a good guy. we get along very well. he may leave. at some point, everybody leaves. everybody. people leave. that's washington. >> let's bring in the former department of defense and cia

chief of staff jeremy beis. thank you for joining us. this isn't normal. there's something abrupt and perhaps unseemly about the defense chief. if we heard about this in any other country we'd say, what's wrong over there? >> that's right. >> there's something wrong when the top guy defending your country drops a letter on the table of the commander in chief and walks. >> that's right. mattis told people in recent weeks that he would not quit, he would not quit out of fatigue nor would he quit out of frustration. he would stand his ground and he would only leave his post, leave his assignment if he were pushed out. i read this resignation letter as a break with the president on policy but fundamentally what it means is trump fired mattis because mattis would not carry out these activities including abandoning our mission in syria, potentially abandoning our mission in afghanistan and breaking with our alliance structure. >> you say abandon our mission. that covers over some real debate here. president obama was elected on the promise of no more stupid wars. he didn't like the iraq war and all the major democratic types

did. he went to the people and said, i think this war was wrong. most americans think it was wrong. the idea that he would want to move back troops doesn't surprise me. are you surprised he doesn't think we should stay permanently in place with syria? i think that was his whole philosophy when we ran. >> the way to do it was to move with allies, in coordination with military leaders and other partners in the region to do it in a way that doesn't endanger our national security. that's not what we have tonight. >> an interview tonight, steve miller said that mattis was correct to say that trump deserves a defense secretary who has, well, similar views. let's watch. >> sounds to me like secretary mattis believes the president's entitled to a secretary of defense who is better aligned with his views. at the same time the president had a great relationship with secretary mattis and thanks him for his service. this president got elected to

get our foreign policy back on the right track after being years adrift. >> there you have it. i guess the question is did they ever have this debate that you and i could have about whether or not the united states should have an advanced deployment of our troops all over the middle east? we have x many thousand in iraq and afghanistan and a couple thousand in syria. when are we ever going to bring them home. some would say keep them there forever. when a permanent garrison in the middle east all the time. i don't think we should. >> one of the problems, chris, i think mattis identified this with abandoning our mission in syria at this moment is we essentially handed it over to iran. iran has a land bridge that they've hoped for all the way from the persian gulf to syria to the mediterranean. it's an important gift for russia and he's wanted assad to stay in power and they've wanted iran to have influence in the region. one has to question why would the president hand over such a

gift to vladimir putin and the russian federation. that's what this resignation letter says. he says, we have not been unambiguous and resolute. we have not stood by our allies and our friends and i think fundamentally secretary mattis is issuing a warning call. he's saying i've defended our troops and our country but this policy i cannot defend. up next, trump's acting attorney general has given himself the go ahead, wow, to oversee the mueller investigation despite his past criticisms and the inquiry itself. is the end in sight? could it be in a couple of months? that's what the word is according to nbc news tonight and our reporting, looks like february. this is "hardball" where the action is. but at fidelity, we help you prepare for the unexpected with retirement planning and advice for what you need today

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welcome back to "hardball." we have late-breaking news tonight. the russia probe will be coming to its conclusion soon. nbc news is reporting that special counsel robert mueller is expected to submit a confidential report to the attorney general as soon as mid february. that's the month after next. that's according to people familiar with the situation. this means that mueller is very close to wrapping up his investigation, quote, the sources either did not know or would not say whether mueller has answered the fundamental question he was hired to investigate, whether donald trump or anyone around him

conspired with the russian campaign. whether the special counsel will accuse the president of wrongdoing is also unclear. today he's charged five former advisors as well as three companies and there were likely more indictments to come. i'm joined by the author of that report ken delanian and greg brown, former senior fbi official. how did you get this news? >> this was reporting i did with pete williams. >> they're so tight over there. >> but what's going on is when mueller is ready to send his report over, it requires more than mueller. he's sending it to the attorney general. they have to be ready for that so people are starting to find out about the timetable? >> who set the timetable. >> it's mueller. >> he believes he'll be done by then? >> yes. i was surprised by that. i thought there were many more months to go. apparently he's wrapping up. another side of that is all of these cooperators are headed

towards sentencing. he was supposed to be sentenced until -- >> until you have their stuff, right? >> yeah. that's true. i don't have the sources ken has -- >> put the logic tree together. >> i wouldn't be surprised at that timetable. that would make sense. >> what about a question of the president being in interviews is a nice word to be questioned. >> that is a wrinkle that could end up postponing. if he wants to just decide he doesn't want to climb that hill because he has the testimony of other people including don mcgann about donald trump's state of mind. >> if you're trump's lawyers and you're trump and you're lucid about this, you're not happy to hear he doesn't need your testimony at this point? >> no. in fact, the way mueller may be looking at this is the way federal prosecutors before if he considers it a target, it may

give it an opportunity to come in and explain why you shouldn't be indicted. that's assuming mueller feels he can indict him. we're all speculating. it's not clear. >> aside from possible exclusion or corruption, it could entail financial wrongdoing. it's a mere certainty that special counsel robert mueller's team, and perhaps federal prosecutors in manhattan, long ago obtained trump's tax returns. >> that means everything including russia would be in there? >> that's right. he could spend years. he was trying to figure out now on the president's decision making. withdrawing troops from syria, which is a gift of vladimir putin. >> if it doesn't contain a report does it admit it failed?

i mean, i'm asking a serious question. what does mueller say in the report if he says we have tried to prove there has been suspicions, nobody comes to us. would he clear him? would he clear trump of russian collusion? >> a third possibility is a story of ignorance. a lot of people made very bad decisions, met with russians, accepted help. there was no direction from the top. that can be a very damming report in and of itself. >> that's pretty damaging? >> i don't think so. >> they see a lot of things. they see trump tower, all of the meetings here. the meetings with all of this going from the term crowd to hook up with russians. all of these strange people with long names that we're not used

to. you never know if there's one big lock in, let's screw hillary, let's win this thing. >> either all of that will result in additional indictments receipting relating to the russian collusion issue or it will result in a report without further indictments. >> last thing, roger stone, knowing about the stuff, if he did know in advance, then he has magical powers. that would be an interesting report. they've discerned that roger stone has magical powers. i'm kidding. they have to come down and say, this guy knew ahead of time into the hacking into the democratic headquarters. they even knew the names of people that would be outed? how did he know it except he was working with them. >> even if he had advanced

knowledge, they have to put him with the russians and talking to the trump campaign. maybe we'll see it. even if they charge robert stone with lying, that doesn't deliver donald trump and the people around him? >> where it's at, two months off, right? >> you've got it. >> thank you. ken did he laney and ben brouwer. there's a provision for $5 billion for the president's border wall? what happens when that could lead to a government shutdown. up next, our roundtable tackles the chaos of these events. as one reporter put it, just a typical thursday. just the on pe sit poe sit. you're watching "hardball." if additional offers are what you desire, visit your john deere dealer before they expire.

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what a chaotic day here in washington. back to "hardball." we're following several big stories on this day of chaos.

the government is careening towards a shutdown tomorrow night. jim mattis, the last adult in the trump cabinet, is out in february. and robert mueller could be nearing the end of his investigation. phil rucker wrote on twitter rather sarcastically, just another thursday. i'm joined by the "hardball" roundtable, kimberly aikes. jason johnson, political editor of theroots.com and franco is a former advisor to the great john mccain. thank you. kimberly, as a reporter, what do we make of this day. a lot of lead stories at the top of the fold. >> it is. likely they are linked to one another. it's not coincidentally they are all happening. president trump rattled by the sentencing hearing earlier in the week decides to drop the syria news on everyone including

general mattis. >> that's connection? help me there. >> general mattis has never been a fan of a full and sudden pullout in syria. if you recall, he walked president trump back from that in the past and president trump relented after bashar al assad engaged in another gas attack of people there in syria, his own people. this time when president trump dropped that and is considering that in afghanistan, it seemed like it was a bridge too far. he made it clear that he disagreed, that's why he was walking back. >> it seems that a lot of things are going on. we have a president agitated gearing up for a fight and he's getting them. >> mueller coming out and the stock market, we're all the frog in the pond on this. it's boiling around us. 500 drop a day. i've never seen anything like this. every day it's horrible. >> it's really bad. this is abandon ship, orange

jump suits are coming. everybody is trying to get out of this place. i completely agree with kimberly. mattis has had to do with policy. a lot of other people are becoming concerned because not just the economy, the sort of erratic behavior that the president has engaged in is now too much. now if this is true, i always thought especially if the democrats end up retaking the house, it would mean you would get the report sooner rather than later, every single person is on notice. they want to get out and get laurd up because before that report doesn't come, there are several other people that could be in trouble. >> i want to know if the president was tactical in all of this week. announcing this, we don't like the stupid wars, or is it rand paul? did he get to him ideologically

and say you've got to pull back or was it to d-- >> during the campaign he talked against our engagement in these wars and we needed to disagree. >> i'm with you. >> the president said it correctly. we have 2200 troops in syria. does anybody really think that's going to make any significant difference? from my perspective the president inherited a flawed policy from the obama administration and now that they hold just 1%, he will turn to the american people and say he was able to accomplish. >> i have a lot of respect for second mattis. he was an advocate. he said that during the campaign in 2008.

>> you may be on the same page. i don't like the timing. go ahead. >> yeah. the idea of pulling out of wars that nobody was happy about has never been a problem. >> right. >> there are a lot of things that donald trump has said that they more or less agree with. it's how he does it. it's in his abject thought. president trump's position on the shutdown has shifted several times in recent hours. last week he argued he'd be proud to own a shutdown over funding for the border wall. you saw that in the oval office. >> if we don't get what we want one way or the other, whether it's through you, through military, through anything you want to call, i will shut down the government. >> okay. >> i am proud to shut down the government for border security. i will take the mantle. i will be the one to shut it down. i'm not going to blame you for

it. the last time i shut it down -- >> do you like how he put should of. >> the shutdown -- >> see what happens. >> you say that but -- >> too early. too early to say, sarah. thank you. thank you, everybody. >> are you still willing to shut it down for $5 million? >> thank you very much, everybody. >> thank you for asking. >> we need border security. thank you very much. >> and tonight the president made clear he would do what the fringe right wanted him to do. hers here's radio host rush limbaugh calling the play. >> just received clearance. the president has gotten word to me that he is either getting funding for the border or he's shutting the whole thing down. so there's the man behind the curtain. the guy that ended up buying the shots. he has the conservative folks on

his right pushing him hard. the commitment you made on the campaign trail, democrats who have zero incentive to move on this. there's no place to go but a shutdown. president trump is the only one who can move. the democrats aren't going to. >> what happens with all of these votes? he'll stick around for a few days before he goes and unless they use their brains let's come up with a sophisticated proposal. they wouldn't do that. they would figure out something else. >> here's what's bizarre. you spent the last several weeks of the mid term saying there was a car a van of people running against the border and lost 40 seats so clearly the motivation and the desire of the american public for this wall is nonexistent because the caravan didn't scare people into wanting the wall. >> you don't think immigration

is an issue? >> i don't think the wall is the solution. >> because nobody thinks we'll get a wall. >> if it was barack obama who said it and we're all weeks away and this is a figment of everybody's imagination. so this is a -- we're going to have a waurl. >> what's going to happen? >> i think the big story would have been if the president backed away. >> what's he doing in the midst of negotiations. he never said he would sign the continuing resolution. >> what are we going to do now? what we're going to do, the president is just one of the players. the democrats should come to the table as well. >> no. >> kimberly -- >> you nailed it. you said the democrats don't have the slightest motive. >> no. >> what motor laws.

i was told health care was the reason. >> i don't know. i'm telling you right now immigration is not enough of a motivator. >> immigration is a huge issue. it's a huge issue with trump and the american people. >> the promise on the wall was made on the promise that mexico would pay for it, not the american people. the house is currently voting on the new house bill to pay for the vote. tim ryan had this to say about republicans and the present. >> you guys are living in the past and this government is in chaos. it's in a free fall. the market's in a free fall. the staffing at the white house is in a free fall. the secretary of defense is gone. we're pulling out of syria. what is going on? you are in charge of the house, senate, and white house. get a grip and learn how to

govern the country. >> that's a democrat. >> you know what the answer to that is, elect more republicans until we can have 60 vote senate. that's how you get the president's agenda through. and everything that tim ryan just articulated is exactly what president trump promised that he would do. >> let's ask you a question. i want a reasonable answer. do you believe the united states government is going to pay for a state of the art wall that you can't get over, any wall like the ones in the model cities we're looking at there, from the pacific to the atlantic, gulf of mexico, are they going to build that? >> the president has said on numerous occasions, the wall will be different. we'll use what worked in israel. parts of the wall -- we do have a wall in southern california. democrats supported that in 2006. it has worked. >> so what is the wall, how many

miles? >> there are areas of it where there will not be a wall in all likelihood or a type of wall that is not the traditional wall, fencing in some areas. but the concept of a barrier, yes, the president ran on this and the president has been consistent that -- >> he wanted mexico to pay for it, and now he's saying the democrats have to give him the money. >> he had said throughout the mexico will pay directly or indirectly. >> he said mexico will pay for the wall. it's a different conversation. >> it matters on the type of assistance we've provided to mexico being taken back, it matters on the trade agreements, directly or indirectly. >> how long should he fight for this wall? >> look -- >> christmas is coming. on tuesday, how many days should he hold the government closed? >> i completely agree with laura ingram. i believe she speaks for the majority of moderate republicans. he should extract from the

democrats and the republicans at this juncture, the best deal he's going to get with a republican-controlled house, as much funding as he can and then the president should look for other discretionary authorities and funding mechanisms he has in the defense and other bills in the government. which he has. >> how many billions? >> i think the president is going to settle for probably half of what he requested of the five billion. i really do. and then additional funding will be made available through other agents of the government. >> do you guys think that will happen? >> no. >> that's obstructionism. >> all the republicans were too incompetent to get this done in the last two and a half years. you had two years to get this done, and didn't get it done. and now you're begging people who don't want to work with you. >> we have to accept the democrat position, that is obstructionism, zero, zero -- >> this is about donald trump ran on the mexican government will pay for the wall.

several politicians in mexico said they're not paying. now he's begging democrats to pay for it. >> and at one point chuck schumer said he would get full funding for the wall two years ago. he has said repeatedly mexico would pay directly or indirectly. >> let's get an update on the dee house vote to fund the government with the wall. let's bring in kasie hunt. what's happening with the wall and the government? >> reporter: the vote is still ongoing, chris, but republicans have the votes they need to add the $5 billion to the resolution that funds the government and send it back to the senate. we are waiting for the official gavel to close. but all of our sources that we talked to on the way in here said that's what they expected, even the moderate republicans who had problems from how this played out, they said we voted for 26 billion for the wall when it was part of a daca deal. that's how the thinking has evolved. question, what happens next?

we are expecting -- we know mitch mcconnell has told senators to come back tomorrow to vote. a whole bunch already went home. the jet fumes were very strong here yesterday and today until this meeting happened this morning with house republicans. so we know that this is a non-starter in the senate. it's not going to pass. so the question is, what next? there are some conversations around perhaps returning to a negotiation that would include $1.6 billion around border security. republicans are saying they need democrats to be a little bit more flexible with that money. democrats are signaling that, you know, that's a bridge too far right now. so a ton in flux here, chris. but the process, at least, is still going. if this had failed on the floor it's possible that we could have seen the house, you know, go back to a clean extension and that would have averted a shutdown. but on the other hand it also could have created an enormous mess with no way out. so perhaps mitch mcconnell has another trick up his sleeve. but again, you and your panel

were just talking about this, this $5 billion for the wall is simply not going to fly. the president's not going to get it. bottom line, drama drags on for another day, chris. >> well done, well reported. thank you, kasie hunt from the hill. adolfo, you're keen to talk. >> i'm keen to talk. do you recall nancy pelosi saying mr. president put the vote up in the house. you don't have the votes to get this passed. if you have such power, go ahead and do it. you don't do it. that was the -- >> the party doesn't have the vote. >> he'd have the votes in the house to pass the house of representatives. >> what is the purpose of these words? they don't have the votes in congress. >> wait. that's not what ms. pelosi said. she said the votes in the house. >> i'm not critiquing. >> kasie hunt just reported quite well that the senate's not going to pass a $5 billion -- >> split the difference. if you have 5 billion in the house come to a compromise with the senate. >> let me explain something in

english that doesn't have to do with numbers. most democrats honor their -- the constituents, not just progressives and good meaning people, but a lot of latinos, hispanics. and the way your party has set it up is the wall is an insult to them. that's the way it's set up. it may not be that way in the idea of having a border, every country has borders, but it's come to be the lingo of we don't like you people, go away. as long as that's the language of the wall no democrat can support it because it's seen as -- >> oh, i think there's democrat support for it. >> no, they hear the ringing sound of anti-immigrant language coming from the white house. as long as they hear that ringing sound they're not going to vote for a wall. >> we explained it's about border security, which it is, we explained it's about keeping terrorists out of the country. we explained that we want people to come in the country legally and we've gone through a process. i think there's broad-based support from the american people. >> your party is ringing with

anti-hispanic lingo with the guy and the cantaloupes and drug dealing and murderers, that's trump. do you want the tapes? >> you're quoting steve king, and you know it. >> i'm burning the president too on this. guys, somebody please remind people watching that the president relentlessly makes fun -- >> argument in november and republicans lost. >> the president said i love mexico, a lot of good people are coming in, we want legal immigration. >> the facts -- please. >> one key point, democrats in the past agreeing to border security, that was part of a broader package that addressed things like daca. the president's approach of tacking this on to crs is a poison pill, he knows it. it's very different politically. you're right about the message. when you are coming together and saying we need to fix aspects of the broken immigration system, that's one thing. that's a place where there should be bipartisan agreement. >> kimberly, quickly, so it was

okay as part of a daca deal to put forward $25 billion for democrats as they proposed for a wall? it was okay a year and a half ago and it's not okay now because they're going to insult latinos? so it's okay as part of a da ca deal? >> it wasn't meant to be an insult. the arguments were made in november. there's no incentive for this. politically speaking how would you explain to a democrat today who just saw this blue wave happen, who just saw a large demographic and cultural sign that the wall is not something that made people happy, how would any democrat -- >> i would explain it that the republicans picked up two seats in the senate. i would explain that they broke -- they increased their majority in the senator. i would explain that a lot of those seats were seats that hillary clinton carried. they were always a little bit difficult to defend. i would explain that it's midterm elections, and i would explain that keeping the president's promise, if he doesn't keep that promise he's going to lose republican voters,

which he cannot afford to lose. >> that would insent vise a democrat? >> when they lost seats, border states where people know that the immigrants coming over are not a danger to the country. they gained in places in middle america which bought that fear campaign. >> the problem with the president, it's all the packaging. and i dwroi that if you had a comprehensive bill some of it would be border protection, some would be giving people a path to citizenship. in some reasonable amount of time, learn english, obey the law. and stopping illegal exploitation of workers. all part of the package. the president's package getting rid of chain migration, the lottery system, all this aspect going after legal immigration. he poisoned his own approach to the issue by going after legal immigration. people say if you're against legal people, you're definitely against me. guess what, he is. thank you to my panel.

that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. all right, good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. utter chaos today in washington, d.c. even by the standards of these last two years. the house right there you see is wrapping up a vote right now. they're going to gavel and close a bill that is basically going to force a government shutdown. here's why. this bill, at the insistence of the white house includes $5 billion for the wall, or wall in the words of krirs ten neil sen. republicans appear to have the votes they need. for the latest on the shutdown, i want to bring in matt fuller. matt, they passed this thing. how did we get to this point? >> that's a good question. a lot of this happens to be just trump and