explaining. i appreciate it. >> my pleasure. that is -- i think we've done it. that is "all in" for this evening. rachel maddow show starts now. good evening, rachel. >> some days i know it is hard when there is nothing to talk about and nothing going on. you just need to stretch. >> somehow we filled an hour. >> i understand you ran a few evergreen segments. thank you. >> enjoy. >> and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. i come to washington for two days and look what happens. i feel like i have to get out of here before the earth cracks open and swallows this place whole. was it me? today has just been a cascade of what would be generally seen as absolutely apocalyptic news in any other presidency. in the trump presidency, maybe we just think of this as a slightly rockier than usual thursday. but any one of the things that happened today would be written

into the history of any other modern presidency as one of its worst days or start of the end. but let's start tonight with the resignation of the secretary of defense jai-- james matt is. dated today, december 20th, 2018 on defense department letterhead. daer mr. president i have been privileged to work as the secretary of defense to serve alongside of the men and women in our department as defense of our citizen and our ideals. one core belief i've always held is our strength as a nation is linked to the strength of our unique and comprehensive system of alliances and partnerships. while the u.s. remains the indispensable nation in the free world, we cannot protect our interests or serve that role effectively without maintaining strong alliances and showing respect to those allies. we must use all tools of american power to provide for the common defense. including providing effective leadership to our alliance.

nato's 29 democracies demonstrated that strength in their commitment to fighting alongside us following the 9/11 attack on america. the defeat isis coalition of 74 nations is further proof. similarly i believe we must be resolute and unambiguous in our approach to those countries who strategic interests are increasingly in tension with ours. it is clear that china and russia for example want to shape a world consistent with their authoritarian model, gaining veto authority over other nations economic and diplomatic and security decisions to promote their own interest at the expense of their neighbors, america and our allies. my views on treating allies with respect and also being clear eyed about malign actors are strongly held and formed by over four decades of immersion in these issues because you have the right of secretary of defense whose views are better aligned with yours on these and other subjects, i believe it is right for me to step down from

my position. the end date for my tenure is february 28th, 2019. and it is signed without salutation, james m. mattis. this letter of resignation today was not released by the white house. it was released by the pentagon. i can't imagine the white house would have ever released this if the pentagon didn't do it. just because there is no lack of clarity here. this was a resignation in protest against the president and his behavior. at least that's how this reads to me. there is no hint that secretary mattis was fired or that his resignation because he wanted to spend more time writing symphonies or something. he's resigned over these two clear issues, treating allies with respect and as he puts it, being clear-eyed about malign actors. beyond this blunt letter, though, i think another way you could tell this wasn't the president firing the defense secretary, is because this

happened today in person. man-to-man. the defense secretary jim mattis apparently went to the white house, met with the president in person today, and he handed him this resignation. now in contrast, when president trump fired people in his administration, i think without exception he has always had someone else do it for him. he does not do that in person. so this is the first resignation in protest in the trump cabinet. and that makes it -- that makes it a first butn on another level this is just another one of those moments. i won't put up the big wall behind me again listing all of the high level departures from this administration, honestly, who has the time. but if we just talk about the cabinet, we had the health secretary resign and epa head resign in scandal, we just had the interior secretary resign in scandal. and in terms of resigning in scandal, we won't put him up

there yet, but if you want to say tick tock over the next to resign, i think the safest bets are on labor secretary alex acosta in arranging a sweetheart no prosecution deal for an unaccused serial child rapist. so alex acosta still at labor department but keep your markers on him. and commerce secretary wilbur ross has a whole bunch of legal issues hanging off his bumper like a bunch of tin cans after a cheap wedding. but for now, acosta and wilbur ross are still there. but still inside of the first half term of this president. we have already had three members of the cabinet resign in scandal. we have had the secretary of state fired by the president. and the v.a. secretary fired by the president. and the attorney general fired by the president. we have had one member of the cabinet, the u.n. secretary nikki haley apparently resign without real explanation, but there remains so opassity around

her departure and now this first. a cabinet secretary resigning in protest of the president's behavior and beliefs in being overt about that being the reason for his departure. and again, that is just the cabinet. keep in mind that in the midst of the ever erupting chaos right now in this town, the president has just fired his second white house chief of staff and about to bring on the third and a brand-new white house counsel started last week, i'm sure he hasn't been busy at all with the last week how it has been. the dow jones dropped another 500 points bringing the stock market to a 14-month low and on the precipice of a bear market and tomorrow it is more likely than not that the federal government will shut down indefinitely. even though the republican party continues to have unified control over the white house and the house and the senate. despite republicans controlling all of the levers of power in washington right now, they apparently are not on track to

pass a bill that will keep the government open which the president will also see fit to sign. so the bill the president will sign won't pass the senate and the bills that will pass the senate, the president won't sign. so one of the things we're going to be trying to figure ott tonight is the absence factor. tomorrow the government will just shut down right in time for christmas. which will result in the sudden furloughing of tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of workers and the grinders to a halt of big parts of what the federal government does. they will try to pass something to avert that but senators are fleeing this town like shoplifte shoplifters running from -- from a loud checkout. we'll see if there is enough of them around to cast the votes that will keep the government open provided that they can agree on something that they would like to vote on. so like i said, a lot going on.

we need help tonight figuring out what is going on with a lot of the different stories that are evolving. what is going on with the shutdown, which frankly is now imminent. what just happened with the defense secretary resigning in protest given the stated reasons for his resignation, given what appears to be the immediate precipitating event which appears to be president trump's abrupt unilateral twitter announcement that all u.s. troops will immediately leave syria. one of the things we need expert help on tonight with regard to that story is whether secretary mattis resigning and resigning in this way might be expected to cause a greater standoff of some kind between the president and the u.s. military. so we're going to get help on that from an excellent pentagon-based reporter who is right here. we're going to speak with her in just a moment and also talking with a presidential historian who has been looking today at what kind of precedent there is in our history for this kind of thing and what that might tell

us about the prospects for some sort of more dramatic split between the defense and the president. does that end up pulling a little bit at the constitutional seams between our military and our civilian government. and i don't mean to just jump right on it too abruptly, but one of the things that is now in the foreground and not at all in the background of all of this news is the president of russia. vladimir putin today praising president trump for his announcement that he would pull u.s. troops out of syria immediately. vladimir putin of course thinks that shear -- sha syria should be russia's out post and bud out and leave them to it. today at his annual press conference, once a year whether he needs it or not, he praised president trump for pulling u.s. troops out of syria. as soon as he was asked about the decision to pull troops out of syria, the way he responds

was by praising that decision but immediately pivoting. he said we think it is good news. we're happy that he's pulling out of syria. we'll believe it when we see it, though. the united states has been in afghanistan for 17 years and they always say they're withdrawing there. that was his pivot today. within hours the "wall street journal" was first to report that president trump ordered about half the u.s. troops in afghanistan, about 7,000 troops home right now. within weeks. another sudden announcement today on top of the sudden announcement yesterday about the unilateral and complete withdraw from syria. so we're going to have a leading member of the foreign relations committee here to talk about that in just a moment. but this all does come in the immediate aftermath of the trump administration also announcing the relaxing of sanctions on a key russian oligarch linked closely with the kremlin.

the oligarch's company, the second largest aluminum in the world, has been sanctioned by the u.s. government because of the russia's behavior toward ukraine, and that second largest aluminum company in the world will no longer be sanctioned and that will be release and a boon to the russia economy, a huge russian economy but the way the sanctions deal was lifted, the oligarch himself, the same putin linked oligarch to had which paul manafort offered private briefings during the presidential campaign, he will be allowed to divest from his aluminum companies so the companies can shed these u.s. sanctions but the way he's going to divest from his aluminum companies is by shifting his shares to a russian state owned bank that is controlled by the kremlin and that is a bank called vtb. and that is the bank that was reportedly the financing agent

for trump tower moscow about which the president's personal lawyer just pled guilty for lying to congress and the same real estate deal that prosecutors say extended well into the presidential election campaign while the president lied about it and kept secret that he was pursuing that deal. it is a deal that prosecutors now say could have netted the president's company hundreds of millions of dollars from russian sources. so these things are -- these things are just happening at the same time. the same day the president announced that, surprise, the u.s. is pulling out of syria and leaving it to russia after all, his administration drops sanctions on the russian oligarch associated with the campaign chairman in a deal made possible bip the kremlin controlled bank to provide the secret real estate deal in russia that he was working with during the campaign that could have been worth hundreds ever millions of dollars and then afterward the president of

russia said that is good and you should get out of afghanistan too and now the president has done that too and the defense secretary has resigned in protest and while the government's likely going to shut down tomorrow. but on top of that, if you think the pressure on the president over the russia issue may be driving any of this, driving the president's behavior and decisions as president, maybe driving the stress in the white house about the investigation into the russia matter and what it may turn up and what kind of pressure it may put on the president and his family, today, on top of all it, or maybe intrinsic to all of it, today was the day they just made their move in the justice department. now you may have followed the twists and turns of this over the course of the day today. but rather than go through the ways this story changed over the course of the day and how the justice department put out an initial exculpatory story and had to retract it and later put

out the real story after anone nuss officials corrected the record about what happened and after a weird day in terms of the justice department letting out this information, where we have ended up is serious. and just to sum it up, what i'm going to do is read you the lead just posted by the excellent reporter charlie savage at "the new york times." i think he actually nuts this up pretty perfectly after a twisty day on this story. quote, matthew whitaker who was installed last month as acting attorney general by president trump has cleared himself to supervise the special counsel investigation, rejecting the recommendation of career justice department ethics specialists that he recuse himself. the development came soon after the disclosure that the president's nominee for attorney general william barr had written a memo this spring in which he strongly criticized one of the main lines of inquiry by the special counsel robert mueller whether mr. trump had committed obstruction of justice. disclosure of the memo raised

questions about whether barr would order robert mueller to shut down that component of the inquiry if the senate confirms barr as attorney general. together the developments underscored the potential threats to mr. mueller's ability to complete his work without interference at a time when his inquiry appears to be drawing closer to the white house and to the president's most trusted associates. charlie savage quotes senator mark warner of virginia, the top democrat on the intelligence committee who said today, quote, it is becoming pretty clear that the president is basing his choices for leadership at the justice department on candidates criticism of the mueller investigation. we can all see what is happening here. so buckle up. it has been a day at the rate things are going, it may be a night as well. we'll be joined by the incoming chairman of the judiciary committee in the house to try to make some sense and put in context some of the major new developments.

but on the issue of the russia investigation, after a rip roaring couple of weeks, a very dramatic courtroom development driven by the special counsel, the mask did sort of get ripped off today in terms of how the president intends to try to get at the special counsel's investigation from inside of the justice department. simultaneously the russian government has just gotten a huge series of very, very expensive gifts from the president in very quick succession. -- including one it was so expensive it cost him the resignation of his defense secretary tonight. so let's start there with zpert help. joining u.s. now is courtney coop. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> what is going on with your day? pretty normal. >> holiday and shopping. >> is there any question about why secretary mattis resigned tonight. >> defense officials say it --

he was not pushed out and there are decisions counter to secretary mattis's advice throughout the course of his time at the pentagon there have been a lot of decisions but the ones most recently have been the most egregious for mattis and those were choosing general millie, mark millie to be the next chairman against matt is' advice. >> is that such an important issue to him because he is strongly against millie or felt like it was disrespectful or inappropriate to reject his choice of somebody else. >> i think it is a combination of both. the president has the authority to nominate and they take the secretary of defense advice and in this case mattis wanted someone else other than general millie and then came out the surprise syria announcement which was over the course of the last week or so, this was a discussion. president trump has wanted to take troops out of syria for some time. he didn't hide that in the spring when he wanted to and

secretary mattis and others could change his mind on that. they started talking about it again. what was particularly surprising was how it came out and the fact that president trump has decided to take all troops out in such a quick and rapid succession. and then that of course comes 24 hours later we hear the white house has asked the pentagon for plans for withdrawal from afghanistan. >> within weeks. 7,000 troops. >> within weeks. it is not clear. nothing is decided. but the fact that they are asking for this series of plans and it sure seems like the president has decided he wants to go down in the number of troops there. when i was in afghanistan in october, i got a real sense that there is a limited time that they have to keep this 14,000 to 15,000 that are there now. the next course of action would be a counter-terror force, going aft after al qaeda and taliban and less of a focus on the training mission and as we heard from

secretary mattis tonight, the training mission is the nato mission. that is the partner mission that secretary mattis keeps going to the nato allies and saying this is why we need to stay in this mission. we need more money and fund the training. so if the u.s. is going to pull out of that as well -- >> so when i was -- when i was reacting like everybody to this news from secretary mattis, immediately read the resignation letter and saw the way he articulated that and jotting notes to myself, what are all of the things on which we've seen secretary matt is either explicitly or implicitly agree with the president on. it is everything from the president talking smack about nato and talking down nato and wanting a military ban and the ban on transgender and the space force debacle and he told the president no on arming the u.s. troops sent to the border to basically to enforce immigration

issues. >> yes. >> is this cumulative? you are talking about what was particularly important about the joint chiefs decision and the syria decision. and now the afghanistan decision is happened apparently in the wake of this. and i see why those would be key issues for him but is this a pile of things that just grew too long or were those qualitatively different issues. >> these are specific security issues. so the ban on transgender service members, having a parade, i think these are things that secretary mattis had an opinion on but wasn't willing to go to bat to the point of having to resign. >> having a confrontation over them. >> exactly. >> if he did slow walk them. >> there were ones that weren't as well reported like when president trump wanted to pull all dependents off the korean peninsula and he slow rolled that. but in this case, if you look at syria, there is only maybe 2,000 isis fighters left in syria, they are in a small pocket. in the next couple of months this syrian democratic forces in the u.s. could probably have cleaned that out, so why now? all of this -- what this does

now is leaves them there for the potential for them to maybe grow, maybe to be able to start inspiring attacks outside of the region in the u.s. and in europe, something like that. that is one of the big concerns but also the concern that this is going against the syrian democratic forces, the ypg and the arabs fighting who have been a very consistent strong partner to the u.s. and the coalition and this is abandoning them. >> with mattis leaving in the way that he's leaving and leaving over these issues as you are describing them, do you think it is possible that this may precipitate a wider break or additional resignation or bigger problem between the white house and the pentagon. >> when i heard about this, after the shock wore off, was did this mean we'll see general officers resign as well. so imagine if you are -- imagine if you are the commander of operation iraqi -- inherent resolve which is the iraq and syria mission, and you're pulling all of your troops out

and you're abandoning this ally who you spend time building a relationship with, and imagine if you are the head of sent com right now so i wouldn't be surprised. i haven't heard about anything but that is the next big thing i'm looking for. are we going to see military resignations over this. >> yes. nbc news national security reporter courtney cuby, thank you. thank you for being here on camera and being such a help to me and my producer every damn day that we cover stuff and need to call you for your help and understanding this stuff. thank you. >> the best team. i love you guys. >> okay. senator chris murphy will join us live in just a moment. stay with us. in us live in just. stay with us do you want to take the path or the shortcut? not too fast. (vo) you do more than protect parks when you share the love. you protect our future. get a new subaru, like the all new forester, and charities like the national park foundation can receive

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stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and two-hour appointment windows. click, call or visit a store today. there is chaos now in this administration. this week was one of the most chaotic weeks we've ever seen in american government and amazingly they want to close the week, president trump does, by shutting down the government. shutting down the government. now, we all know that secretary mattis had real disagreements with the president on syria and on the wall. some have speculated that the president was going to demand that he start building a wall,

which he knows he can't do by law, and maybe that is one of the reasons he stepped down. >> you have leaders, great leaders who have left the administration in dismay and the rest of them have left in disgrace. that's what this administration has been about. we don't want to be fear mongers in terms of our country. this great country can with stand just about anything. but it shouldn't have to. it shouldn't have to. there is -- yes, i am shaken by the resignation of general mattis, for what it means to our country, for the message it sends to our troops and for the indication of what his view is of the commander-in-chief. >> tonight in reaction to the surprise resignation of the defense secretary james mattis, you heard the remarks from new york senator chuck schumer, the leader of the democrats in the senate and from nancy pelosi, the incoming speaker of the

house. tonight in reaction to that resignation, one of the leading lights on foreign policy in his party, chris murphy, democrat of connecticut, was more blunt about it. he said this tonight in response. quote, a secretary of defense quitting over a public disagreement with the president whose foreign policy he believes has gone off the rails is a national security crisis. no way around it. joining us now is senator chris murphy, democrat of connecticut, a member of the foreign relations committee. senator, i appreciate you being here. >> thanks for having me. >> you probably thought you would be home by now. >> congress. >> i want to talk about secretary mattis' re-- resignatn and your blunt remarks and tomorrow the soi-- the senate we on a bill that won't or will keep the government going or are senators here or have left. >> many senators have already

left. my friend brian shots landed in hawaii and getting on a red eye to come back. >> and he got to hawaii and said hi, aloha and came back. >> because vice president pence came to the caucus and told the republican senators that the president would sign the continuing resolution so we left last night thinking the job had been done temporarily and now we'll vote tomorrow on a continuing resolution with $5 billion for a wall that will not have the votes to pass in the senate. the government will shut down. and it will be mcconnell and ryan's decision as to what to do next. >> you say that with confidence that the bill with the $5 billion for the wall, it won't pass? >> it can't pass. i don't know that it will get a single democratic vote and the senators and republicans in the house have known that for a long time and which is why mcconnell moved this resolution earlier this week. >> so is there an effort to put

together something else that might attract democratic votes or is this it, the one idea and you're telling me there is no way it will pass. >> this certainly won't pass. we've always been open to having a conversation about a comprehensive immigration reform proposal, it would get tough on the border and solve all of the oeng lingers problems in the system or a budget agreement with some additional money for a border security. but certainly not money for a wall that no one in this country wants. not least of which the people who actually live across -- along the border. but that conversation would have been nice to have last week or a few days ago. it is just absolutely insane, cruel and hurtful to the people who rye -- rely on the people that rely on that. >> and you would put the percentage of a shutdown at -- >> 95%. i think it is tough to pull a rabbit out of a hat given where we are right now. >> let me ask you about the surprise resignation of secretary mattis. it was a surprise to me, although i like everybody has

read all of the news and been aware of the issues on which he disagrees with the president. this seems -- reporting seems to indicate courtney cuby was just telling us that this does seem to be in reaction to the president's announcement on twitter about the pull out from syria. were you surprised by this and why do you think this is such a serious matter that you actually called it a national security crisis. >> i'm certainly surprised by it. in part because mattis has weathered all sorts of substantial disagreements and reckless behavior from this president so it does beg the question if he was willing to go out there and defend the muslim ban or sending troops to the border as an election year stunt, why was this the thing that broke the camel's back. and that being said it is a national security crisis because this is one of the last people close to the president on national security matters who was willing to tell him no when he was doing something truly reckless, two, it exposes this enormous rift between the department of defense and personnel and the president of the united states, i still

haven't found the last secretary of defense to resign in protest. >> some have been fired but resigning in protest over a president's -- well, yes. >> and in public protest. sending a letter which very clearly delineates the places where the president's national security has gone off the rails. and then finally and not insignificantly we've left an alley in the lurch. and once you've made a commitment to protect the kurds once the turks told you they are a week away from going after the kurds, -- it sends a bone chilling message to leave with no plan on what to do instead. >> why do you think the president did it now? to be absolutely fair about this, he talked about wanting to get troops home from all sorts of places all over the world and not understanding the rational for a lot of overseas deployments and so he's in general been inclined to talk about bringing people home. but why do you think this

announcement was made by this president right now? >> who knows. it may just be the mental state of the president. it also may have to do with the impending offensive from the turks. remember, many of us were very worried that 2,000 troops was insufficient to stop a turkish force from doing what they've said they wanted to do for a long time which is wipe out what they perceive to be a terrorist group. they are not a terrorist group, the kurds, but that is what the turks perceive. and the president had a conversation with the leader of turkey, erdogan, where he was given notice that this offensive was coming. it may not be coincidence that he's pulling the troops out after having been given this notice. >> that is a crazy dynamic. the president of foreign country said we are planning on attacking your allies where you have 2,000 troops and the response of the united states is we better get out of the way then. >> and why have we been there for the last two years. the whole rational was we -- we're putting the troops in to

send a message to turkey and make good on a promise for the kurds to take on isis that we would take care of them on the back end. and so right at the moment when the check is coming due from the kurds is a very curious and very dangerous moment to walk out. again, i'm not somebody who thought it was a good idea in the first place but once you've made that commitment, you've got to follow through on that commitment and in some way, shape or form. >> do you find it unnerving that the president of russia praising the decision in the way that he did today? >> of course. of course we have handed over american foreign policy to the kremlin in a number of different ways. this is just one element of that. i will say, to back out from all of this, i have always believed that the ultimate resolution of this was going to be bashar al assad winning and the russians back in control of that country and we have been making it in syria for a very long time, pretending we'll be able to create some alignment in which america was going to have our

interests at the centerpiece of policy out of damascus and that would never be the case. so while i don't like putin crowing about a victory in syria, i also know that he was going to have a big -- and is going to have a big say in the future role of what happens in syria. >> and we all have to worry about how much of a say he has to -- he has and what our government does on all sorts of issues. senator chris murphy of connecticut, i'm sorry you are at work and still here but i understand. keep us apprised and it will be dramatic. >> will do. >> much more to get to tonight. do stay with us. do stay with us. snowboard. matt: whoo! whoo! jen: but that all changed when we bought a house. matt: voilà! jen: matt started turning into his dad. matt: mm. that's some good mulch. ♪ i'm awake. but it was pretty nifty when jen showed me how easy it was to protect our home and auto with progressive. [ wrapper crinkling ] get this butterscotch out of here. progressive can't protect you from becoming your parents. there's quite a bit of work,

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late last night we got the news the president's nominee for attorney general bill barr sent an unsolicited 20 page memo to the justice department a few months ago railing against what is believed to be a key portion of the special counsel investigation. the obstruction of justice part of what we believe that robert mueller is looking into when it comes to the president. if he was confirmed as attorney general, bill barr would be the over-seer of the mueller investigation and all of its parts. this memo declaring that he thinks that part of the -- of the investigation is a terrible idea means at base that mr. barr has pre-judged that element of the case. makes it a little hard to imagine him being put in charge of overseeing the investigation since that would imply that the president could very well have put him in that job specifically so that he would undermine that

part of the investigation. then we got news this morning about the former cable tv pundit and former u.s. attorney keeping the attorney general seat warm as acting attorney general, the news is that acting attorney general matt whitaker, he did consult ethics officials at the justice department over whether he needs to recuse himself from overseeing the mueller probe while acting attorney general because of the many times he's argued publicly against it. now this story evolved a little bit over the course of today, what it eventually turns out to be, in terms of our best understanding of the reporting, is that mr. whitaker consulted with ethics officials at the justice department and they advised him that on this matter he should likely recuse to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. he then decided that he would not ask them for a formal advisory opinion as to whether or not he should recuse and then he decided that he would not

recuse. just in the last few hours the justice department sent a letter over to congress explaining some of this. the explanation came from the form of this letter from assistant attorney general steven boyd at the justice department from the office of legislative affairs. it says the acting attorney general received briefings on the enlices rules and regulations from senior ethic officials in the -- the acting attorney general also met with and provided relevant information to the department senior career ethics oep official in the office of the deputy attorney general. the office of the deputy attorney general advised mr. whitaker's supervision of the investigation should be reviewed. ethics officials concluded that after considering the facts there wasn't a personal or political relationship from whitaker or any person requiring recusal, however mr. whitaker made public comments prior to his rejoining the department that could constitute circumstances other than those

specifically described in the ethics rules which do raise an appearance of impartiality issue. having been so advised, he then decided that he would not recuse. so this letter to congress tonight from the justice department spells out a little bit about what happened here. but the bottom line as far as we understand it is that the president's choice for acting attorney general, despite advice to recuse, decided he won't. and the president's likely nominee to be attorney general is already on the record saying that he basically objects to a core issue within the mueller investigation. this seems like sort of dramatic turn of events. congressman jerry nadler is the top democrat on the judiciary committee and the incoming chairman of the judiciary committee when the new congress convenes in the new year. congressman nadler joins us live now. sir, thank you very much for being here. >> thank you. >> so i feel like this story

about acting attorney general whitaker changed a lot over the course of the day. the early headlines suggested he was told by ethics officials he did not need to recuse. that later appeared to be contradicted by anonymous justice department officials who went to reporters to say, no, he did not want an opinion after i'd been advised he should recuse. what do you make of this. >> we make of this that the professionals, the career people at the department obviously told him that there is an appearance of impropriety problem and he must recuse. he didn't want to do that. i assume the president didn't want him to do that. he's there -- remember the president got rid of sessions specifically because he recused himself and didn't want someone else to recuse himself so they came up with a political people with an explanation and they had to try to explain the earlier instructions and this is what they came up with. and now the fact is that we've always suspected that he was put

there as a hatchet man to undermine the mueller investigation. chairman to be cummings of the oversight investigation committee and i had a telephone conversation with whitaker a few weeks ago in which he did agree to come in and testify before our joint hearing of our committees in january. he's been backpacking on that. we're sending him a letter tomorrow demanding that he come in in january as he had promised he would. >> he agreed to you overtly and now is rescinding -- >> he didn't rescind. they cannot find a date. they cannot find a time. they're backtracking on it. so we're sending a letter tomorrow morning demanding that they set up a date and time in january and if not, being in the majority, we'll have ways of compelling that. and obviously this is among the major questions we have to look at because the number one priority is to protect the

integrity of the mueller investigation. >> if he is defying ethics advice from the career ethics officials at the justice department and those are serious folks and they are not partisan and they are not people who make decisions for -- on the basis of political whims. if he's defying that advice and sort of trying to evade that advice, by not asking them for a formal opinion, taking an indication from them that their advising him to recuse and saying i don't want you to give me a opinion about it, is that improper? is that something that he should be held accountable for by your committee? >> it is something he should be held accountable for. it is very improper because we have ethics officials and rules for this purpose. to prevent conflict of interest and to assure the american public they get dispatch of justice, especially in the justice department. >> in terms of the president's i guess nominee designee, we got

surprising news about him having declared his position on an important part of what we believe the mueller investigation is looking into. i would like to get your reaction to that news about bill barr right after the break, if you don't mind. see that was a little cable news trick. we'll be right back with jerry nadler, the incoming chairman of the house judiciary committee. we'll be right back. e. we'll be right back. hi susan!hs) honey? i respect that. but that cough looks pretty bad... try this new robitussin honey. the real honey you love... plus the powerful cough relief you need.

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york, the incoming chairman of the judiciary committee. thank you for being with us. it is a remarkable day. the surprise resignation of the defense secretary is taken i think the whole world by surprise. we also -- the early part of the day today was dominated by revelations out of the justice department which you will have oversight responsibility for as chairman judiciary. the president's apparent nominee to run the justice department post-jeff sessions and attorney general matt whitaker has written a 20-page memo criticizing aspects of the mueller investigation or what he believes are aspects of the mueller -- >> criticizing the scope of the investigation saying that they should not be looking into the question of obstruction of justice. because the president has every right to -- under the constitution to fire comey and do various other things but that's nonsense. of course he has the right to fire the fbi director and do various other things but not for improper motives.

not for corrupt motives, of shutting down an investigation against himself. that is obstruction of justice. >> the president has appointed mr. barr or will nominate we're told mr. barr to the nominate w told mr. bar to the attorney general position. senator schumer, the top democrat in the senate today said that he should pick a nominee, this new memo is qualifying on substantive grounds because of the arguments made here. do you agree? >> i totally agree. he's making the argument that essentially you can't investigate any president for obstruction of justice, that no president can conduct obstruction of justice as long as what he does for the obstruction of justice are legal acts like firing comey or firing the special prosecutor by nixon, it doesn't matter. as long as it's a legal act he can't be guilty of obstruction of justice which is a nonsensical argument and takes

it off the table. if you'd had that argument richard nixon would be fine. he can't be the one who will decide whether mueller is allowed to prosecute for justice. he can't be the one to allowed to decide whether mueller's report is given to the public or congress because he's totally prejudiced. but again anybody that the president will appoint at this point i assume will be appointed for the purms of shutting down or prejudicing that investigation, and that was proven by the fact he got rid of sessions whose only sin from his point of view was that he reaccused himself. >> what can be done to protect the investigation in terms of recognizing the president's intention to try to get at the investigation, to try to get at the special counsel from inside the justice department? obviously legislation has gone nowhere. >> legislation has gone nowhere. we can try again. that's number one. number two, the attorney general

nominee should not be confirmed because he's someone who was put there for the purpose of shutting down or damaging the investigation. number three, if necessary there are actions we can take. for example, if mueller should issue a report and give it to the attorney general and the attorney general instead of giving it to congress or making it public decides to pocket it we can subpoena it. or we can simply invite mueller in front of the committee ask what was in your report. >> if the southern district of new york or inteed the special counsel's office or any other empowered prosecutor anywhere in the country decides to test the office of legal counsel advice that the president can't be indicted, let's say the southern district of new york decided that the president should be charged with the same felonies that michael cohen pleaded guilty to because the prosecutors laid out evidence in his charging documents that suggested the president was equally involved, as much

involved in those felonies as michael cohen was. how would that be adjudicated and what would be your view on a u.s. attorney trying to do that? >> well, my view is the u.s. attorney would be doing the right thing. i think the olc decision of the president can't be indicted no matter what he does is a deeply un-american decision. we rebelled against the king of england because we said we don't believe anyone should be above the law. not the king, not the president. the framers, if you read the debates of the constitution were worried this new office of president should not become a king. there's language in the constitution giving certain immunities, congressman cannot be arrested while go to and from, congress cannot be held accountable for what they say on the floor and so forth. if the framers had wanted to make the president immune from indictment, they would have said so in the constitution as they say in these other cases. so it's -- it places the president above the law, and that's wrong. no one should be above the law.

>> you take issue with those olc memos. they are controlling policy at the justice department. do you intend to interrogate that? >> we will interrogate that, but what we can do about that is another question. i will certainly -- there is another question, by the way. if a president committed a crime and you can't indict him because he's president, he may be immune because the statute of limitations may run. so one thing we're going to do is introduce legislation where the statute of limitations does not run with anything with respect to a president as long as the president's president. so you can't escape prosecution just by being president. >> that is lie. i cannot imagine president trump signing. >> i cannot either. i would like to get rid of this olc doctrine altogether. you asked if they decided to prosecute him nonetheless, then the president presumably would raise the defense in court that the president is unindictable

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tonight we've got the dramatic news that defense secretary james mattis has not only resigned but resigned in protest of the president's behavior and beliefs on the treatment of u.s. allies and whether or not the president is clear-eyed towards maligned actors, as like china or russia as suggested by secretary mattis. now, one of the things that is remarkable about this is that's the first member of the president's cabinet, in fact the first senior person within the trump administration to resign in protest of president trump. but secretary mattis has gone out of his way to make sure he knows and that we all know this was not a firing, this was a resignation. and he has published his resignation letter tonight, so we all know the grounds which he left. joining us now is presidential

historian michael beschloss. thank you for being here. so defense secretaries and presidents sometimes go their separate ways. has that ever happened this way before? >> no, this is big historical event. we've had secretaries of state resign in protest. disagreed with carter's iran hostage rescue military mission, but we have never, ever seen a secretary of defense say i am seriously concerned about the president's ideas and his national security policy so much so that i cannot be a part of this anymore. >> i was struck by the -- just seeing the letter just as an artifact, right, thinking about talking to you about this as a historian. we have at least what's sort of like a photo stat of the letter at this point, released by the pentagon, not released by the white house. which to me was an act by this

man who's still the secretary of defense. he said he'd like to remain in office until the end of february, and he's making sure his agency puts this out. not trusting the white house to make a statement about it. >> and the president in his tweet said he'd be retiring and mattis wanted to make it clear this was no retirement, this was much more important. >> in terms of the knock on effects here, wo one of the pri things is our constitutional inheritance and that a precious balance in this country. nobody does it quite like we do. >> right. >> do you -- when presidents and secretaries of defense have had trouble in the past, has it ever precipitated larger troubles between the defense department and the white house? between civilian leadership and the military?

>> a little bit. at the end of ninety-sixen just before he resigned the secretary of defense famously gave an order quietly if nixon does anything strange like mobilize the 101st airborne to save himself, you have to come to me for a counter order. what scares me is we do not know what things james mattis has prevented trump from doing over the last two years, and we as americans have to demand that who ever replaces him is not a lapdog and the model of the justice department is not very reassuring here. donald trump may want a secretary of defense who's going to be compliant and easy to dominate. that would be a very scary thing for our