hey, welcome back to "up."

i'm steve kornacki in for david gura. we begin with hour with the federal government now in a partial shutdown. it began nine hours ago. it continues as we speak. democrats, meanwhile, refusing to budge. >> president trump, you will not get your wall. abandon your shutdown strategy. you're not getting the wall today, next week, or on january 3rd when democrats take control of the house. >> now, we could see a deal when the senate is back in session at noon eastern today or maybe not. there was this scene yesterday, as well. vice president pence and jared kushner dispatched to the administration. now hours into a government shutdown, still no signs of progress. joining me this hour, adam

siegfried, jill, author of "feminist pursuit of happiness," m mara gay editor for the "new york times." blain is at reagan international airport. blain, i understand you're with a furloughed federal employee, one of the people affected by this. >> you're absolutely right. we wanted to come out and show you the people who are directly affected by this partial shutdown. all eyes have been on capitol hill, but we came out here to the airport. thousands of tsa agents are having to report to work this morning without getting apy check. they will not get paid until this shutdown is over. so, yeah, holiday shopping can be stressful, but even more so for the agents who are working during the height of this busy holiday season and understandingly caught in the middle of this shutdown.

i also met with another traveler who is dealing with all of this. sara, you and theo are on your way to charleston, west virginia, for the holiday season. you are among the 800,000 employees affected by this shutdown. how frustrating is this for you? >> it's frustrating, but i don't think i'm going let it affect the holiday spirit. i'm going to enjoy the holiday and the break and spend time with family and friends. that's what i'm looking forward to. >> and everybody has been watching capitol hill very closely. you told me you tried to tune it out, but this is the third time that we've gone through this in recent months. >> it is. earlier this week, we were hopeful that it was going to stay open, and then as it got towards the end of the week, i think we knew a deal would not be reached. but i'm really hoping that as soon as the holidays are over, even sooner, they can reach a deal and the government can

reopen. >> i know you're optimistic, you and theo are staying optimistic. but what is the mood as you talk to fell low employees about thi? >> i haven't had a chance to speak to my colleagues. but at least for myself, i'm going to enjoy the time off and enjoy my mom's cookies. >> thank you so much. you and theo have a safe flight and good luck to you guys. sara is one of the 800,000 employees who are personally feeling the effects of this. some people say they have tuned it out and others say they have been watching this very closely to see when everything will be resolved. >> blain, thank you for that. let's head, meanwhile, across town to capitol hill. mike is in the hallways there. mike, both sides obviously dug in right now.

from the trump vice presideewpo there has to be a wall. you heard schumer there, no wall under any circumstances. the only middle ground that seemed to emerge was this idea of let's punt this for a couple of months. we'll revisit. trump blew that up. is there any other middle ground that's emerged in conversations there that could potentially result in some kind of deal? >> it doesn't appear so, steve. this looks like it's going to be a zero sum game. let's start with a little bit of sill is remember lining for that federal worker blain just talked to. the senate yesterday passed a measure that would allow them, whenever the government does get back up and running, those federal workers will receive their backpay and that has been the case over the last several shutdowns. there will be an inconvenience, particularly for those who live from paycheck to paycheck and obviously that's a big question.

the government is shutdown and those government workers are furloughed and will not be getting a paycheck so long as this shutdown lasts. steve, we've seen a lot of conventions and norms shattered over the course of the last two years. but right now, this is playing into a dreary ritual of brinksmanship and politics, both sides blaming the other for not having the votes. only one problem if you're president trump. he publicly proclaimed in that infamous oval office photo-op, that fight that he had with nancy pelosi that he was going to, quote, take the mantle, that he would be happen to take the blame for the shutdown. he's obviously singing a different tune this morning in that video he posted on twitter saying it's up to the democrats to come up with the votes. but here is the problem. it was demonstrated to virtually e6r7b's satisfaction yesterday in a procedural vote, a test vote in the senate that there aren't the votes, whether you're talking about a simple majority of 50 or a filibuster proof majority of 60, there are simply not the votes in the senate to

give the president the $5.7 billion he's now insisting on after reversing field at the last minute on friday before he's willing to sign that appropriations bill to bring us into next year and keep the government open, steve. >> mike there on capitol hill. obviously, if there's any developments, we will be getting back to you. mike, thank you for joining us. meanwhile, i want to bring my panel back in with me. i'm going to put a graphic up here. this shutdown is about this idea of the wall. trump xacampaigned on it. do you support or oppose building a wall along the border with mexico? 43% support, 54% oppose. that's the bottom line issue that's being fought over here. what strikes me most about this is that looks like trump's approval rating. it looks like every other topic that we poll these days where you look at the partisan breakdown, it looks like trump's approval rating. the folks with trump are for the

wall, the folks who disapprove of his job are against it. >> i think that's right. trump just got significant feedback from the american people during the midterms where he really pushed the issue of the wall. he tried to froth up his base to support republicans and they lost the house badly. americans are sent a message that the wall is not a priority. that they are not happy with what the trump administration is doing. and sure, there's some 35% of sort of die hard trumpists who are going the back him for whatever he does. but if he really wants to win in 2020, playing to that tiny increasingly angry and increase goi ingly marginal base is a strategy and i don't understand why he's doing it except that his image seems to be damaged by people saying nasty things about him on fox news. >> i'm trying to think ahead to 2020 and how some of this might work strategically. there's a strong case that needs to be made that trump needs to

expand his pool of support beyond what he got in 2016 even though he won. he won so narrowly, beyond what republicans were able to get in 2016. at the same time, if you take that base out of it, you can't win, can you? >> i want to say no and i want to hope no, but after living through 2016, i don't know. and you mention dollars that abo -- mentioned that about polls. you can ask, hi, i have a question. what do you think? 40% are going to say yes. i don't know. this is the first time that we're seeing a crack in the armor. which we haven't. there have been times over the last two years, particularly charlottesville, helsinki, where what i call the sane world has coa alessed in coa -- coalesced. the 40% have stuck with him.

this is evidence of what is going on in the conservative world that immigration is the third rail to them. and he's touched it and i think he -- no pun intended -- is literally shocked at the response he's getting. i think he's very confused. i don't think he knows what to do. there is no strategy to it. and for the first time, i have to say, the age old question if the election were held tomorrow, he would lose. >> so what is the -- i'm trying to think of a way out of this in terms of the government reopening. from that standpoint, what you would find traditionally is each side can find something to latch on to. the democrats can say we've got this. the republicans can say we've got that. and i'm trying to think what would that middle ground be right here? if trump's base believes this is it, you either get the wall in december 2018 or you do not get the wall. anything short of that is december. we cannot tell our base that we gave trump anything that he can

remotely begin remotely begin to wall a wall. >> ultimately, we haven't seen trump from this position of weakness before. given the fact that he acts like a caged animal, it's scary. we don't know what's going to happen. ultimately, he's going to have to be satisfied with way less than he would like in this circumstance. there's no way -- mitch mcconnell is really the key, i think, to getting trump something, anything he can call a win. and he's not motivated to do that right now. he's not motivated on behalf of the president. he's moevtivated on behalf of h own agenda. i think that's the only venue. i think the democrats, rightly s so, are not willing give in on this. the trump foundation announced it would be closing its doors amid allegations of mass misconduct. the court shut down the ban. mattis resigned. so i think he's trying to change

the subject. that's what a good showman does. and he's created another crisis. what's new for him is that up until the midterms, he has actually had the upper hand. that's no longer the case. i think he's in for a rude awaking. >> but he would have to sign anything that would reopen the government. he's still a player in this. if the reaction from the pren base this week to this idea of, hey, we may not get the wall at the end of december 2018 and they're trying to punt this a few months when the democrats are going to control the house so we're going to get even less, that was the reaction and it was panic and it was crisis and it was this cannot happen. what's the minimum that trump needs to get here to not get that praekz from h that reaction from his base? >> he needs the base to feel like he fought for them. in the primaries, there were people saying why did you vote for trump? he has no business being in this race, he has no judgment, he has

no temperament to be president of the united states. they said but he fights. and here he is and he's doing his fighting, which is just sort of lashing out with any rhyme or reason and no strategy whatsoever and undercutting the party itself. and he's not getting what's done. i think the senate republicans pulled back and said, you broke your word with mitch mcconnell and b, you're going to have to fix it. i think it might be a tactical move on the part of republicans to say the base wants somebody who fights. this is what they get. they're going to have to learn from their mistake. >> to prove that he's fought sufficiently in the minds of his base -- >> well, he tweeted in all caps, come on. >> does a shutdown of two days convince them, two weeks? >> as long as he's able to sell that he hasn't surrendered anything to democrats, the base is going to turn around and say, yeah, he fought for us.

he might not have gotten us this wall -- >> the wall was essential, right? >> donald trump, he's not a real estate developer. the trump organization is a personal branding organization. it slaps a label on something that says the it's amazing. i used to live in a trump building. it looks great from the outside, but when you go in it, it's a piece of garbage. if he can sell a piece of sausage with a bandade in it for people to eat, great. but -- listen, it was low rate, it was tax abatement. it was new york city. >> and i guess what i'm wondering, is this different, is this -- but i wonder in part because of the reaction this week that you initially saw on the right when it looked like trump was going to sign off on the deal. and that felt different to me than we normally see. usually he starts to get the benefit of the do it right then. this felt different. the wall, it was so central to what he ran on. and it was so tangible. you can look up in the fall of

2020 and say either it's there or it's not. >> there's the wall argument and there's what happened with syria and mattis. and there's the inside game and the outside game. the inside game, he's basically lost congressional republicans, which he's done periodically where they've gone neutral or sometimes they've criticized him. the outside game with i think we're oversimplifying the base. they're being obstinate. what are they going to do? they're going to surrender and say 65 million of you were right, we are wrong. come back. they have nowhere to go. this isn't like they're going to mo move from bush -- >> but the question is do they stay home? you're talking about a president that lost the popular vote by 3 million votes and needed that vote across three critical states, if 100,000 stay home,

there goes your coalition. >> i would love for the election to be tomorrow. >> stay with us. coming up, defense secretary jim mattis making history this week when he announced his resignation. >> we have never, ever seen a secretary of defense say i am seriously concerned about the president's ideas and his national security policy so much so that i cannot be a part of this any more. nnot be a part of this any more. i'm ken jacobus and i switched to the spark cash card from capital one.

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would i elcome back to "up." after a week of bad headlines in trump world including the surprise resignation of secretary of defense james mattis. mattis has come out against the president before, comparing him to a fifth or sixth grader. he joins a long line of senior administration officials who left the white house with less than glowing reviews, a few of the ways they characterize the president. one called him a professional liar, one a dope, with the intelligent of an idiot. the panel is back with me here. we said all the talk this week about the shutdown, oh, by the way, the president announced in

the week there would away troop pullout from syria and the secretary of defense seemed to respond to that by saying i have a major philosophical difference with you on this and i'm resigning. >> it's not necessarily that the troop pull youout is in theory a bad idea, but zoit do it without having a plan and without extracting some concessions from, for example, russia who are getting a massive gain from this pullout. who is leading our international strategy, is it going on be something like john bolton and we're going to be at war with iran in the next year? the mattis resignation, i think,

is one of these moments in this administration that we're going to look back on as a significant turning point. either from here it falls apart and hopefully things just stew in the water and there aren't many big moves made, or this is a point where we really, really go downhill in our relationship with our allies and in our mi military strategy. so oii think this is a scary moment. >> i'm wondering how pulling the troops out is a scary moment. in the wake of the iraq war, we've seen on poll after poll after poll a real hesitatety on the part of voters to send our military out for any reason. but it strikes me that i think a lot of people in announcing this pullout are finding out about it for the first time. this isn't something that went through congress. it's just, oh, we had 2,000 troops. >> yeah. i think it's different for

americans, not because they're not intelligent, but to understand the ins and outs of internationaldy ku mro international diplomacy and the mission in syria. that's fine. what they do understand is that the president has ignored the advice of an extremely trusted general and adviser, experienced one who has gravitas that the president does not. and that's what is so scary about this moment. is that this is happening over the objection of the expert in the room, the adult in the room, and that not only did that happen, but then that general, general mattis who is widely respected across party lines then left, not only just quietly, but actually apparently asked his staff to create 50 copies of his resignation letter to send around the white house from the reporting i'm seen. i'm sorry. i can't remember who reported

that. but he wanted to make it clear that the president of the united states is unhinged and is no longer listening to the advice of those who know what they're doing. >> and it was just mattis that trump ignored. this all started because of that phone call eight days ago with president erdogan of turkey who said just casually to the president, oh, yeah, you know, why do you -- you accomplished your mission. why do you still have those troops there? erdogan wants to hammer and kill the kurds. so trump turned to his advisers and on saturday and sunday, bolton, pompeo, mattis begged and pleaded, do not pull out. he went with erdogan. he was so easily manipulated on a casual comment by another world leader. he's a .22 caliber mind in a .357 world. what does this send to our allies and other places like north korea who we are trying to get to denuclearize? it's that the united states will protect you and make sure nothing happens.

what does kim jong-un think we're abandoning people we promised to stand beside to the slaughter. >> i think there's a bigger question that this moment gets to here that has to do with the post iraq war mentality of this country. which is it's a lot of hesitancy, as i said, to send troops abroad. it's also you talk about this idea of the experts are saying this. this is the best course on foreign policy. i think there might be, sort of broadly speaking in this country, a lot of folks who feel still they were burned by the experts when it came to rab, they we iraq, some consequential decisions and it's something that i sense that trump tapped into on a broad level in 2016. we look at syria now and i see all the arguments being made this week. i'm trying to balance that against the sense of is this a mission the country ever bought into in the first place? the country was never really asked to buy in this mission.

it didn't go through congress. >> no. syria has been a wicked problem for the last two administrations. not that anyone has had the silver bullet to it. but it's legitimate to have a conversation about where american troops have been deployed and at what cost. trump tapped into that in 2016. he lied about his support. but let's set that aside for the moment. we didn't have the conversation about the wisdom and the cost of it. he just did it. and i don't think a lot of americans are sitting home debating about syria. if you asked mae week ago, how many troops were there, i wouldn't have said 2,000. i don't know what i7 would have said. what they're seeing is this blob of mattis news. and i have a different take. anyone who has served in uniform, especially their whole life, deserves our respect except for mike flynn. but if you remove that for a moment, just because jim mattis

is in the lowest court of complicity doesn't mean he hasn't been complicit. troops to the boarder, he didn' stand up to that. he lied to intelligence about whether saudi arabia was behind the killing in turkey. let's not give him too much credit. i think this motion of adult in the room is prolonging the agony. he's been this, like, blandky to everybody. tillerson was a blandky. kelly was a blanky. they're not making a difference. it's carrage. >> the way ma mattis was able to do it, he may not have been able to influence the president in certain meetings, but when it comes to the functioning of government and getting orders through -- >> the government is shut down. >> no, but he can delay things. bob woodward talked about how gary cohen and rob porter were hiding things.

>> this is what it takes to get congressional republicans to say we're getting to a point where we have to take a look. we're better off doing that today because mattis was fired or resigned two days ago than six months from now because we've all been living in lala land because these adults are saving the world. >> stay with us. plenty more to come. you can see here that shutdown clock continues to count up. 9 1/2 hours into it. we will talk to one lawmaker who is demanding both sides of the aisle come together. but what exactly is the middle ground here? but what exactly is the middle ground her e? (pirate girl) ahoy!!!!! (excited squeal, giggling/panting) gotcha! (man) ah! (girl) nooooooooooooo! (man) nooooo!

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welcome back to "up." parts of the federal government being forced to shutdown this morning for a third time this year. we are now just hours away from the senate gaveling back into session at noon. negotiations resuming in washington. president trump is insisting any budget including at least $5 billion in funding for his long promised wall along the mexican border. but congressional democrats are refusing to budge. joining me now is steny hoyer, set to become the majority leader when democrats take back control about two weeks from now. mr. hoyer, thank you for joining

us. simple question, we've seen a number of shutdowns before that have lasted hours, days. do you expect this one will be in that category or do you think this one potentially has legs and could last longer? >> what happened last night in the senate gives me some hope that this will be short-term. jared kushner was involved in the discussions, pence was involved in the discussions, mick mulvaney was involved in the discussions. so that would hopefully indicate to us that this is going to be short-term and that we can reach agreement. i certainly hope that's the case. this shutdown strategy that has been pursued frankly by our republican friends from time to time starting in '94 or '95 with newt gingrich is simply the wrong way to go. senator alexander said that last night. he's absolutely right. this is no way to run a government or to run an appropriations process. >> the president obviously is saying his bottom line here is the wall. democrats obviously saying there will be no wall. let me just play a clip of what

the president said last night and get your response to it. take a listen. >> it's very dangerous out there. drugs are pouring in. human trafficking. so many different problems, including gangs like ms13. we don't want them in the united states. we don't want them in our country. the only thing that's going stop that is great border security. with a wall or a slat fence or whatever you want to call it. >> i'm just curious in particular if you heard there, he said a wall or a slat fence or whatever you want to call it. is there some kind of middle ground here where he gets something that's not a wall but that he's able to say is close enough and you guys would be okay with it? >> or not a wall. i think probably is the key phrase there. remember, let us remember because we forget so quickly because trump moves to issue to issue to issue and changes his story so frequently, it's hard

to remember what he said. but just three days ago, the president agreed to a bill that the senate then passed unanimously and sent to the house which included the border security regime that had put in the republican homeland security bill. all democrats were prepared to vote for it and notwithstanding that, the house republicans and the president said oh, no, it doesn't have the wall and the president changed his mind. within 24 hours. it's very difficult to make agreements under thoughse circumstances. but the fact of the matter is, we want border security. we want to make sure that our boarders are not porous, that we know who is coming into this country, that we protect against those who would either bring contraband or drugs into the country or who would be dangerous in the country. we all agree on that proposition. we don't believe the wall is the best way to do it.

but if we're talking about, as some senators talked about last night, better technical surveillance, more personnel, tighter border security at the points of entry where most people come in, then i'm sure that we can make some agreement on that and beef up the homeland security bill which is already a very strong bill and is a republican bill. none of these are our bills, steve. they're all republican bills. we voted for some, we voted against some. i'm not talking about everybody, but some members on our side. and the fact is we're in a agreement. we got something. the president and the republicans got a lot because it's their bills. but we're prepared to pass those. but we've said we don't believe the wall works. we think the wall is a waste of money. any event, mr. president, you were dead flat wrong. the mexicans aren't going on pay for this wall. you're now asking for the american taxpayer to pay for

something we don't think works as well as other solutions and very frankly, a lot of republicans agree with us on that proposition. so i'm hopeful, steve, that this will be short-term, perhaps as early as sunday if a deal can be reached today. the senate will have to come back and vote. giving their members 24 hours. we would have to give our members 24 hours. so it may be as late as thursday, but i hope no later than thursday that we can have a deal that the president will make and then stick with. that's the important point. and i think if we do, and it doesn't contain the wall, then i think we can pass a very good homeland security bill with very tough and successful border security contained therein. >> i want to ask one other question here. there has been some other news on capitol hill involving you and the democrats as they're poised to take over the house. i wanted to ask you about it

quickly. the deal that nancy pelosi struck with democrats to become the speaker of the house, the deal she struck she said she is going to abide by is there be a four-year cap on her run as speaker. she says whether the democratic caucus chooses to codify that or not, she will live by that. the reporting has been that this deal also includes you. i've seen some comments from you that suggest maybe you're not comfortable with it. i'm curious, does the deal pertain to you? will you abide by it? is there a four-year cap on the u.s. majority leader? >> well, let me say, if it does apply to me -- and i don't know that it does -- and i am philosophically not for term limits. i have a term limit. two years. people have to re-elect me, send me back, rehire me and then the members have to rehire me ar the whip or the sxwrort leadmajorit the speaker. but what it means to me is i can

spend four years as majority whip and six years as speaker. that's a ten-year deal. that's not something that really worries me. thanks a lot. >> congressman steny hoyer soon to be to majority leader. up next, is the president feeling the pressure as mueller wraps up potentially his investigation? wraps up potentially his investigation? ♪ ♪ ♪ the greatest wish of all is one that brings us together. the final days of wish list are here. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment. only at your lincoln dealer. the meeting of the executive finance committee is now in session. and... adjourned. business loans for eligible card members up to fifty thousand dollars,

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welcome back. approximately we are approaching hour ten of the third government shutdown of the year. members of the house are said to be on call. "new york times" editorial meanwhile paints the picture of a president on the verge of a breakdown as conservative media allies turn on him, staff members resign and mueller turns up the heat on the russia

investigation. plus we have two weeks away now from the house taking back control of the house of representatives. we just heard from steny hoyer who will be the majority leader in two weeks and the dems get back the house. what did you make of steny hoyer's message he was conveying there? >> well, after years of this point of the democrats on the defensive, i think what we saw is somebody who felt that there was no need to compromise with a president in the midst of a temper tantrum. and i think, you know, hoyer said something interesting. he said the democrats were already prepared to hand the republicans a victory of sorts by voting on their -- on the border security bill that does not include funding explicitly for a wall. and trump is going to have to find a way to spin that into a win, because the longer this goes on, he's going to be blamed

for it. i mean, he owns this. he's on video saying, you know, such. and it's hard to see how -- i hate the phrase america first, anyway, frankly. but it's hard to see how this is putting america first when you have american workers being held hostage over $5 billion border security wall that is not necessary, that is only a gift to a base based on appealing -- appealing to our worst angels. the president going on camera talking about, you know, how we don't want them in this country, this demonization and dehumanization of immigrants that he's engaged in from the beginning. i think that's what is at the heart of this. and i just think that the democrats are right to.stand strong and to say no because $5 billion, that's real money. waef subway meltdown in new york city. we have people across the country in rural areas who need

help. and we're going to spend $5 billion on an unnecessary wall? i don't think so. >> well, what is interesting to me, jill, about what hoyer was saying, he seemed to take note of what the president said last night about maybe not a wall, a slat fence, whatever you want to call it, that listening to hoyer there, there did seem to be room, certainly from the democrats' standpoint for something short of a wall that they could say, okay, we didn't give them the wall. we call that border security. i'm wondering still if there is something there that trump will claim is close enough to a wall, whatever terminology you want to use. >> of course he will. trump cares about winning. i think there is a really false narrative that the trump base, the republican base has any kind of true and unmovable values. and that for them, the wall is this crucial thing that they must get. i don't think that that is true. when you look at opinion polling, a huge number of them say i don't expect them to build the wall, anyway. we know he talks a big game.

we like his rhetoric. we like that he's strong. we know a lot of this is blowing smoke. so i think as long as trump can offer something where he can say, look, we won. whether that's true or not doesn't matter to a base that divorced themselves from the truth a long time ago. >> we'll take a quick break here. remember meanwhile that anonymous op-ed in the "new york times," many are now thinking it would be a good time to speak up again. would be a good time to speak up agai n.

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[ snow crunching ] [ load crunching ] [ whispers ] this is the loudest snow ever. welcome back. the resignation of general mattis is raising new questions about that anonymous op-ed published back in september in "the new york times." it was published or written by someone claiming to be an insider who is part of the resistance and working to protect the country against the president's worst inclinations. just yesterday, george conway, kellyanne conway's husband, said hey anonymous, time for an update. if that person has not done so yet. back now with the panel, with "the new york times," you were saying in the break, you do not know the identity of anonymous.

>> my mother has asked me. my grandmother. no, there's only a few people who know who it is but it was somebody who was in the room and we never would have run something unless we knew exactly who it was and knew that they knew what they were talking about. i agree with brett stevens. it would be great to see this person if possible and put his or her name to this like general mattis did and at this point, everybody has a responsibility to stand up for what's right and anyone who's left in the administration who can keep us safe, i'm grateful to them for doing so, but especially for those who are more higher ranking, i actually think they have a responsibility at this point to speak publicly. >> it was september so basically four months ago it happened and it's one of those things that when it got published, the alarm bells were out everywhere and

kind of, oh, yeah. that was four months ago. you forget it with the swirl of everything that's come since and will continue to come probably. is it surprising though, looking back four months later that we don't know? the person hasn't said it themselves or the administration hasn't found it out, the media, for that matter. >> the administration can't tie its own shoes at this point, so they're not going to find out at this point. but i think the person who is anonymous has a responsibility either to come forward as mara says or to come out with another piece saying why they're not coming forward and what the reasons are. is there something there? >> quarterly updates from anonymous. >> we'll ultimately know who they were. we didn't find out who deep throat was for 30 years and this could be the same thing and in this day and age of somebody wanting to cash in on that, somebody will say i was anonymous. >> it's been four months and we stopped talking about. and because it really didn't

matter. i'm curious as anybody, i have a list of who i think it is and i hope i don't go to my grave not knowing, but things, the point was to make you, maybe don't believe it, but say i am doing something. you don't see it. but behind the scenes. >> i see someone talking to a video about walls and he looks like, that's the take you say, hold on, i want to do this again. that didn't look good. you don't need to read an op-ed of what someone is doing. we see the product. i don't care who's on the assembly line. it doesn't matter. we're seeing the end result of someone who not only has abused but is unfit for in every pob w possible way. >> how would anonymous be received if he or she stepped forward right now? >> i don't think he would step

forward until out of the white house and then get a very profitable job in the private sector. i think for me what was so sort of disgusting and frustrating about that op-ed is it is this kind of microcosm for everything that's actually wrong with washington. you have people that are willing to enable this president, to support him by working in his administration and go on the pages of "the new york times" and say, i know it all looks chaotic, don't worry, there are adults back here fixing things behind the a sense. i'm not willing to put my name on it but once i leave, i'll come out and i'm sure will get a handsome book deal and work back and forth between government and the private sector making money and maintaining a reputation. that's the story of almost everyone in the trump white house and we know that trump is unfit to be president. he's a complete disaster but all of the people that enable him and prop him up and allow him to do this and frankly, kind of snicker the american people, at

least some of us, not those of us at this table, into thinking he is a person who deserves to sit in the oval office. all of those folks will be rewarded for that behavior. they don't pay a cost professionally or in the dc social scene and i think the anonymous op-ed really kind of crystallized just how broken and cowardly and craven that entire system is. >> the turnover, we don't know if they were a week more. forget about being outed. they might have just been fired. >> suggesting they're op-ed but find out if there's a status check if they're not administration or not. >> mark yourself as safe in the trump administration. >> thanks to my panel for this hour. coming up on "a.m. joy," the latest on the shutdown showdown. ten hours in and counting. the blame game in full. joy reid with the latest. n full joy reid with the latest

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and that's it for me today. thank you for watching. "a.m. joy" with joy reid starts right now. >> i will make that wall impenetrable, okay? impenetrable. you don't have to worry about how high it will be and mexico will pay for that wall. >> who's going to pay for the wall? >> mexico. >> who? >> mexico. >> mexico will pay for the wall. i promise. >> in the end, mexico is paying for the wall. >> i promise.

well, good morning, welcome to "a.m. joy." for three years, starting with the presidential campaign and rally after rally ever since, donald trump has been telling his supporters that he would build them a great big wall across the southern border the keep the people out that they want to keep out and that mexico would pay for it. and based on their eager chanting along, all of which is on tape, has you just heard, it's clear his supporters definitely understood and affirmed their leader, donald trump, the president of the united states, promised them that mexico would pay for his wall. of course, the majority of americans knew all along, that was not going to happen. past and present leaders made it clear mexico was going to do no such thing. now the inevitable has happened. after getting pressure from right wing media including fox radio hosts and news, gone beyond demanding american taxpayers pay for the wall. as of midnight plus one second,