the meeting of the executive finance committee is now in session. and... adjourned. business loans for eligible card members up to fifty thousand dollars, decided in as little as 60 seconds. the powerful backing of american express. don't do business without it. ♪ welcome to "up." i'm kristen welker in for david gura. there's no end in sight, lawmakers aren't scheduled to return to the nation's capital until thursday that's four days from now. >> as a government employee it affects me personally because it requires me to come into work on a daily basis and not knowing if we'll get paid or not. >> negotiations are at a stand

still and members of congress head home for the holidays. >> i wish this had come to a head months ago because everyone saw the train wreck coming. plus, another dramatic departure. one of the men leading the fight against isis resigns over president trump's decision to pull troops out of syria. >> he doesn't understand why we're out there. this is unacceptable behavior. the president can be made to understand this that he has to really step up as a commander in chief here. it's sunday, december 23rd and talks take a time-out amidst a lack of urgency to get the government running again. i think it's best if everyone goes home. before things get worse. >> worse? how could they get any worse. >> and that sums it up pretty well. my panel today, joel payne, democratic strategist and former senate leadership aide and ali

vitali, eugene scott, and melissa murray, nyu law professor. we begin with president trump's fight for a border wall. negotiations hit a stand still yesterday clearing out the capitol house and senate leaders, sending leaders home with no deal. a at the white house, president trump had lunch behind closed doors with a group of republicans. conservative members urged him to hold out on this, the third shutdown of the trump presidency and there seems to be no sense of urgency here. congress has no plans to return to the capitol until two days after christmas. at the end of the day republicans and democrats hit a common tone of exasperation. >> the only way to get his wall is if he has mexico fund it. >> trump put out a picture with spikes on top. that's not in the conversation. >> and barely any of the money was spent from last year. >> push the pause button until the president for whom we'll need his signature and senate

democrats from whom we will need votes reach an agreement. >> leader mcconnell there in his red and green. the only signs that christmas may be coming. thanks to my panel for being here. fantastic panel. ali, i want to start with you. i think what we have witnessed over the past 48 hours has been remarkable. you essentially have lawmakers throw up their hands and say, we can't reach a deal. the president wants $5 billion for the border wall and democrats say we're not giving that to you. where do you see things right now? >> well, democrats also have the option of you can wait about six days, keep the government shut down, which trump already said he would own. even though he says he doesn't it anymore, but it's on tape. let nancy pelosi say there's no funding for the wall in there and let the house pass something new. but i think the larger point of this, anything less than $5 billion for the border wall is a loss for donald trump and

this shutdown is something he'll own not just now but going into the 2019 and 2020 season that's a big deal because on the campaign trail, the main promise was we're going to build a wall. mexico going to pay for it. what that wall looks like has changed significantly. >> i want to pause you there. you were on the campaign trail with donald trump. you heard him say that over and over again. is what he is saying now, does it bear any resemblance to why you heard him say in the campaign? >> we stay in touch, all the folks who covered the campaign, we went from a big beautiful wall with a door in it, maybe gold, with trump's name on it, but it's as high as the room we happened to be in campaigning in right now. now it's slats. this has changed significantly. whatever the funding is the promise has still significantly changed. >> eugene, i want you to pick up there. i want to take a little bit of a step back about how we got here. because by all accounts on thursday all of washington thought that lawmakers were on a glide path to actually keep the government open through

february. they were going to kick the can down the road and that the president would sign off on that. then the president got pummelled on air, his base, fox news. you had host after host coming out and saying he's abandoning his base. i had sources texting me, calling me and saying he's going to lose his base if he doesn't hold firm on this border wall. so is the president boxed in here? where does he go? >> he's in jeopardy of losing his base and he's already lost some of his base. when you look at the midterm elections, there are people who voted for trump in 2016 who did not vote for him in 2018. and he's losing just approval ratings with people like white women, white working class voters. even evangelicals and this president who is campaigning on promises kept hasn't kept all of his promises. there's no big gold door in this photo that he tweeted. and he's very concerned about that because that's definitely

going to make a much -- much more difficult for him to actually win re-election. but no one should be surprised that democrats aren't caving on this. they don't want a wall, period. their base doesn't want a wall. and they certainly don't want americans to pay for it. so the fact that some conservatives are looking at the left saying this is your fault, they're saying we didn't make this campaign promise. we campaigned against it. so they're behaving the way that their base wants them to. >> joel, let's talk about the "l" word which is leverage. as eugene mapped out clearly, the democrats don't want it. there's no incentive for them to compromise with president trump because guess what, they'll control the house of representatives. that's the exact argument that trump's base is making that is his last best chance to get any money for a border wall. where do you see this going? >> that's right. but i'll add a bit of context, i'm not taking the president's side but i'm trying to shine some light on what the president might be thinking. >> let's do it.

absolutely. >> the president likes to fight. and he likes his base to see him fighting. he knows this issue is a winner for him. he knows to eugene's point he did have some erosion on that base that was shown in 2018. i think he wants to show the ann coulters and rush limbaughs and the right wing radio types, hey, i'm still the guy we fell in love three years ago, nothing has changed, nothing is different. he does not actually care about this issue because if he did, remember, he had an opportunity to pass a pretty comprehensive immigration package about a year ago. where he -- >> $20 billion. >> he had the leverage and he didn't realize that was the best deal he'd get. i think you're seeing remorse from the president and when in doubt, his instinct is to fight. this president is nothing but predictable and he'll tell you exactly what he'll do every

single time. >> this is a self-proclaimed counterpuncher. we have known that since day one of his presidency. can he win this fight and a win by a win, i don't think anyone expects him to get $5 billion but as ali says he's pushing for the little bit more than the 1.6 than the democrats were offering? >> what does it mean to win? the target keeps shifting and that's what he does. he loves to fight as you say. and if he loses on this, he'll just redefine what it means to win in this context. so it's kicking the can down the road. wait until the democratic house comes in. and suddenly it's nancy pelosi's problem the democrats are obstructionist. >> look at the seats that the democrats are gaining -- 40 seats in the house. i have been talking to my sources and they say president trump intellectually understood the democrats had won the house on election day and now with

each passing day he's starting to absorb the practical implications of that. what are you hearing? >> those are real things and the white house has always been in a place of having its back against the wall and fighting outward. i think when you go out on the campaign trail and you talk to voters they see establishment republicans as much of a barrier to president trump as much as democrats. this calculus might change in terms of the investigations, in terms of what the white house has to produce for capitol hill. but from a voters' perspective, they have viewed trump against the world. trump against congress. i don't know their view of this changes very much, but from the white house perspective it's got to get crazier. >> i'm looking at three different groups of people. mitch mcconnell adjourned people, that's a big you know what, mr. president, go do what you do. this is your mess, this is your problem. i'm sending my folks home. two, paul ryan had an opportunity to pass a bill or to put a bill on the floor that had passed the senate and probably could have passed the house and

could have again put the pressure on the president and made him make a decision. three, the 2020 hopefuls on the democratic side which is everybody's favorite game i'm curious to see how they're reacting. people like beto o'rourke, elizabeth warren. some are talking about how stupid the wall is and the border crisis. it's interesting to see how they use this. >> i love this point that you raise because i think this is critical and it helps us to kind of think about the dynamics moving forward as we head into 2019 and 2020. this divide between the president's base which ali was talking about and establishment republicans. establishment republicans are saying we don't want to own a shutdown over christmas. and yet, eugene, president trump was in the oval office saying i'm proud to own this shutdown. now he's trying to make democrats own it. is that going to be effective at all? and does this ultimately wind up driving away some establishment

republicans this strategy? >> well, it has been effective with some of his base. i have been talking to them and watching how they responded but that's because the president can say anything with some people including as he mentioned the fifth avenue shooting situation and some people stay with him. but everyone who has a recording knows that the president has taken ownership for this shutdown and therefore are holding hip accountable. they also are frustrated because this is a president who's consistently communicated that the wall would be in the best interest of the american people when it comes to public safety issues and the economy. it hasn't presented any data proving that. and in fact there's multiple reports saying the exact opposite. so they're frustrated that this president will not be able probably to deliver on this promise that he told them would be in their best interest in the long term. >> melissa, is the wall, the definition of the wall and who's going to pay for the wall? where we started this conversation with ali in first place if you look at the polls

the majority of americans say we don't want the wall. democrats are saying why should the american taxpayers foot the bill initially even if mexico reimburses us ultimately? has he lost any footing because mexico is not footing the bill? >> well, he loses the credibility. mexico will pay for this wall and mexico is not paying for this wall. the bigger issue though is i think the democrats have staked out a reasonable position. we will increase funding for border control but not a wall. and for a lot of americans, that seems pretty good. >> let me press you on that point. do democrats run the risk of possibly looking like they aren't tough enough? does the president have a point? >> well, i think the fact that they're saying, we're firm on border control. i think they're not giving in on the people firmly on the left of this question, but the wall doesn't make any sense. i think they keep pressing that point. that's something that the american people can get down with because i think a lot of

people think this wall is kind of a stupid idea. it's a figmentment of his imagination and it's just a symbol. >> i want to turn to my colleague, jeff bennett, who has been pulling double and triple d duty at the white house. so bring us up to speed here. we have talked about the stalemate and the lack of urgency. where do things stand right now? any hope for a deal? >> well, i think what's interesting about this, is we have seen the president signal what he might accept in a deal. the president is backing off the notion he has to have a concrete wall. he's now suggesting that he'd be open to a fence. there's a senior administration official who told us last night that the president would be open to negotiating with democrats over any kind of physical barrier along the border so long as some sort of barrier is included in an agreement that would reopen the government. for anybody who is watching who might think this is a silly

semantic argument, they'd be entirely right. this is all about symbolism. partly because this is all about politics. this is not about some sort of substantive policy issue. this is about donald trump needing a political win. he needs to be seen at least putting up a fight so that he can keep his base intact. remember, that was the reason that we are now in the middle of a shutdown entering day two because president trump for the spending bill before he was against it, before the conservative chattering class made him think he was caving and made him think he was going to lose his base. so whatever off ramp the white house can find that is acceptable to both conservative republicans and to democrats is the off ramp they'll take. so whether it's about having metal fencing along the border, whether it's about having some sort of deal that would call for somewhere -- something less than $5 billion but more than $1.6 billion, that is what they need to figure out. what is rather significant about this, you saw mitch mcconnell

you know clap his hands and walk away and say, mr. president, this is up to you. we're going home. when you figure it out we'll come back to washington and get a vote on the floor. >> well, geoff bennett, tremendous reporting. i know you'll continue to track this all for us. thank you for that update from the white house. i really appreciate it. the panel will stick around and coming up, yet another resignation from president trump's administration. this time one of the highest ranking officials on the fight against isis calls it quits. we'll take a closer look when we come right back. stay with us. right back. stay with us hi there,

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president trump's abrupt decision to pull out of syria has prompted yet another high profile resignation. brett mcgurk the top envoy resigned in a letter to the secretary of state on friday. just two weeks ago, he defended the u.s. mission in syria. take a listen. >> we have obviously learned a lot of lessons in the past so we know once the physical space is defeated we can't just pick up and leave. areas we have cleared of isis they have not returned or seized physical space. there's clandestine cells, nobody is saying they're going to disappear. nobody is that naive. >> nbc news reports trump's decision left mcgurk flat footed and unable to explain to the u.s. allies who have been fighting isis with the united states why they were neither consulted nor informed in advance. president trump tweeted in

response that he doesn't know mcgurk and that president obama appointed him. well, he served president george w. bush as well. mcgurk joins james mattis who also resigned this week. the president said he gave him a second chance after obama fired him. joining us is a foreign correspondent for "the new york times." thank you for being here with me. let me start with you. this is significant for a couple of reasons. one, this was the top official in charge of fighting isis. >> it is. >> and number two, it could be an indication of things to come. talk about the significance of the departure. >> so brett mcgurk served three administrations two republican. he was kept on after obama left specifically because he was considered so valuable to the fight against isis. this is the person, a human

being, who went all over iraq and syria and cobbled together this mosaic of a coalition that ended up fighting isis for us. keep in mind it's not american troops that are actually fighting isis, but it's the kurds, the iraqis. it's the local partners that are doing this. >> and to really get inside his decision, he's basically saying, i could no longer guarantee our allies that we will stand with them. because we're abandoning them in syria. is that the essence of it? >> it is. if you look at the numbers the kurds who are fighting this war for us in syria, they have lost 10,000 troops in this three or four year campaign. we have lost just four american soldiers so it's been enormously costly to them and not so costly for us. so imagine having to tell people who have lost 10,000 of their men and women that by the way, even though we told you about a week ago we're staying for the long haul now we're leaving. >> we know that he spoke with the leader of turkey and josh

lederman reports on -- an nbc news reporter that essentially he was guaranteed the -- the president was guaranteed that turkey would take over fighting isis and yet turkey has been attacking the kurds. what do you make of that? >> not only has turkey been attacking the kurds but one of the biggest roadblocks that mcgurk and the coalition dealt with was turkey. turkey did not want us to be backing the kurds because they consider the kurds to be an existential threat since a wing of this movement has been leading the insurgency in turkey. so to me it's unlikely that turkey is now going to suddenly be the one that's fighting against isis. >> eugene, president trump said he was going to be an america first president. are we starting to see up that policy play out and the implication of that? >> we are. we have seen it a bit before when it comes to foreign policy. but when it's something like troops, something that the president has campaigned on and argued he's the most supportive of, this is an area he's gotten

so much push back. one of the things that's been most frustrating with people on both sides of the aisle trump has not provided any information behind his decision explaining why what he's doing is actually the right thing, despite what all of the foreign policy experts said. even when he comes oud and says, well, turkey is going to take over he hasn't explained how they'll take over and how it's more effective than what the united states is already doing. he's making the decisions in his head apart from the advice of experts and those who know. >> i think this is an important point, ali, who is is advising the president? a lot of people saw defense secretary mattis as the grown-up in the room. now he's leaving and mcgurk is leaving and others may leave as well. >> that's an area of the government it helps to have a plan and you can't just be on the phone call with the turkish president and say, all right, it's yours now which is basically what josh's reporting said happened. so i think that you're right

there's no explanation and i think it was really on display -- the white house did a call with senior administration officials who spoke by the way anonymously on behalf of the white house and there's back and forth, the pentagon is referring questions to the white house and the white house is giving it to the pentagon and nobody had any answers and the bottom line of the phone call this is the president's call, he made the call. so i think there's one, the lack of explanation, but two, there's a trust deficit. you saw the deal and then the president reneged on the deal they agreed on and on the world stage there's a certain factor of trust here when you're fighting the battles that clearly for people like brett mcgurk and james mattis they rely on that level of trust and the president's eroding that. >> it's not just a trust deficit when it comes to handling issues like syria and the issue on capitol hill. but these trade issues, these

broader issues with america's core allies. president trump has broken in a really significant way. i think we can't overstate this and what are the implications on the world stage? >> i think it's troubling because it becomes normalized and there's a flurry of activity, this is like story five, this is not even really the most significant story. i mean, we're talking about a government shutdown that's kind of taken up all the oxygen in the room so it's the normalization of chaos we are seeing. two things are apparent, one, the president acknowledges -- i did not know this person, what does that say? >> a lot. >> that the president does not know who was in charge of fighting isis. >> great point. >> he would freely admit that. that in itself is a statement unto itself. number one. number two, thinking about this president and how he likes to fight and these fights, okay, what would possess an ally to have any trust that you can actually trust anything this president says? number one. and number two, that we're going

to hold our word and that we're going to hold up our end of the bargain. nothing. there's nothing there. you're right, there's a trust deficit not just on capitol hill but across the world. >> that's why we have seen data from pew say that the standing america has globally has dropped significantly since president trump came into the white house and people think it's about not liking his tone or his character. some of that is it. but some of it is just a lack of confidence that the u.s. is going to do with the u.s.'s will. >> final point? >> sure. >> what do you think the impact will be for the u.s. allies? >> from where i sit as somebody who studies isis day in and day out, i'm concerned about the fact that is a group that in 2010 came back when we pulled out troops. back then they were down to 700 fighters according to the cia estimate. now they're at 20,000 to 30,000 fighters just in iraq and syria. not counting afghanistan, libya, the sinai, west africa. we are pulling out prematurely without the group being

defeated. >> thank you for helping us understand a very consequential moment. i appreciate you being here. coming up another wild week on wall street knocking the dow and s&p down over 9% for the year but after taking credit for stock gains, president trump is now pointing fingers at someone else for his recent sell-off. that's when we come back. ck i landed.

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this government shutdown we have been tracking capping off a wild week for wall street. the dow jones dropped over 1600 points. registering its worst week since 2008. this comes amidst reports president trump is discussing firing jerome powell. the man who he hand picked to serve in this position just 13 months ago. my panel is back with me and joining us is cnbc's ron insana. thanks for being here. can we pick up on that strident point that president trump reportedly discussing firing powell. people are saying, wait a minute he doesn't have the authority to fire jerome powell. >> just the fact that he's talking about it may shock the markets tomorrow. whether he has the legal authority to do remains to be seen. going back to 1987, having done

this for 34 years, ronald reagan dispatched baker to have a chat with paul volcker. they were not happy with his interest rate policy. mr. volcker ultimately resigned apt he was replaced by alan greenspan. >> a forced resignation. >> that's what it turned out to be, so the president has some latitude to make his desire known to the fed chief and if someone wants to stay over his objections that's possible but an untenable position to be in if they were to do down that path. >> steve mnuchin sent out some tweets so these are from him, not president trump. i have spoken with the trump and he said i think the shrink of the fed portfolio is a terrible thing to do at this time especially in light of my major trade negotiations which are ongoing. i never suggested firing chairman powell nor do i believe i have the right to do so. what do you make of the tweets? >> well, first of all, the trade

war with china could have been handled in an entirely different way. it's slowing down chinese economic growth and that's spreading around the world. we are seeing a global economic slowdown. we are seeing interest rates sensitive sectors of the economy slowing down. capital spending is slowing down. some of the policies have encouraged the economy to slow rather than grow. we have that big burst at the beginning of the year. and now we're starting to see that kind of run its course. so whether or not the president has the authority to do it the fed is not entirely to blame for any slowdown or any turbulence that we see in the market. >> just very quickly, how turbulent is the market right now? the white house said the economy is very strong, nothing to worry about. these are all a part of the typical movements on the stock market. >> this is a garden variety bear market it's probably done. the fed may not know it yet but i think they're done raising interest rate going into 2019. we have seen the uncertainties

that come from the government shutdown, from some of the policy proscriptions, the trade war. it seems to be accelerating the downside. tomorrow is going to be interesting. a half day on wall street so you'll have a concentrated period of time in which the market trades so the powell headline probably won't be helpful unless we get some positive catalyst that's difficult for stocks to rally into the new year. >> joel, let me turn to you and some of the tweets that we have seen from president trump because there have been quite a quite a few of them to the fed. he tweeted about the stocks going up and he's been tweeting about the fed. this is what he said earlier this week, it is incredible that with a very strong dollar and virtually no inflation the outside world blowing up around us, paris is burning and china way down, the fed is even considering yet another interest rate hike. take a victory. he has been tweeting on all sorts of other warnings to the fed. >> sure. there's a flimsiness to the language that he uses answer

that's particularly resonating with me because you know i worked in the leadership office, i worked for harry reid. i wrote statements like this. i remember one time i had my boss -- i wrote something and it was nothing written artfully and he scolded me and he said don't understand what comes out of this office it moves markets. people's retirements rely on this. people's lives go up and down based on what we say. so you have to be careful with language. and the fact that this president two years into office understanding the gravity of understand the as not captured that, that is so telling about him. his perspective on what his job is as president. he thinks it's just to shake things up no. it's to keep things stable and to make sure that people have a safety net and feel comfortable. he has not captured that point yet. >> and the president's business by the way has $340 million in adjustable rate debt so every time the rates go up it affects his obligations. >> very important point. nancy pelosi weighed in on this earlier this week. the president's handling of the

fed. take a listen. >> i have to ask the question -- why does he not believe in governments? does not care about the american people? doesn't he know that the economy is uncertain? hasn't he followed the stock market that he likes to brag about sometimes? there's something wrong with this picture. >> eugene, what do you make of her comments that the economy is unstable. that's what nancy pelosi is saying. >> well, the economy has never been as stable as the president communicated. when he talks about it doing better, he likes to specify how it's better for black voters and women as well he doesn't specify that it's not doing as well for those groups as it has been for some other groups. when he focuses on the stock market he leaves out the fact that not everyone has a 401(k) in this country. in fact, most do not. so the reality she's going ahead and trying to campaign for re-election on i made the economy wonderful, but the

reality is it's not as great as he has communicated and therefore one of things he was standing on is not as strong of a leg as he thought it was. >> if i can take some issue with that. the economy is very strong at the moment. there are indications that next year it may not be as strong and that we might grow below trends. some of this having to do with immigration policy and i know we don't have time to get into that. >> you say that needs to be fixed. >> the population growth is at an 80 year growth. we have a shortage of workers. what we have domestically and internationally and that's a very big issue. >> but the numbers are important because what starts happening next year, people start campaigning for president. economically, you're better off than you were before i got here, so when the economy starts trending downward and he can no longer make that pitch then it's a problem for him in terms of re-election. he needs someone to blame and

whether or not he put powell there is kind of to the side. because he's now the foil he needs to make the point that he needs to make on the economy. >> fantastic point. >> the tax bill, the tax bill, that lost so many republican votes last time around. he's still fighting back and clawing back from the erosion in the republican base around that tax bill. >> and the deficit is getting big sore it's harder to fiscally stimulate the economy going forward. >> thank you for helping us to understand this, ron insana. a day and half into the latest government shutdown and adjourned until after the holiday, there's no end in sight. o end in sight. here we go.

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the partial government shutdown is expected to continue well into next week after congress adjourned with the democrats and the white house failing to strike a deal. nbc news capitol hill reporter mike viqueira is joining us right now. what's been stunning to me i have been watching all your reports throughout the weekend, yesterday you were standing there and basically behind you empty hallways. why is there such a lack of urgency, mike? >> not a creature is stirring here today. if you thought yesterday was empty, let me introduce you to today. we saw a number of members walking out of here with their roller bags behind them on their way to the airport. there is not congressmen or senator one in the hallways

here. why? it's a stand still. it's a dreary ritual for the federal employees directly affected by the shutdown and the thousands of other contractors who depend on the federal government for their paychecks. but it is a ritual now, the brinksmanship we have seen for the third time this year. although this one is shaping up to last a good bit longer than the previous two. you mentioned the fact that it's unlikely this will come to the resolution. the senate only comes in in what's called a pro forma session tomorrow. unlikely to have anything happen here. it's in and out, they bang the gavel, that's it. they're done. same thing for thursday. the 27th. that's when they're scheduled to come in. it's unlikely there will be a deal by then. it's starting to look like this will wait until democrats take over the house of representatives. the first day of the new congress as mandated by the constitution, january 3rd. that's when nancy pelosi can put something on the floor. they can pass something

lickety-split, send it over to the senate and the senate is already on record, already having voted for something that does not include the $5 billion that president trump is insisting on. what we're hearing now, a semantic dis -- distinction. trying to sort of finesse this negotiation by not calling it a wall and then the knowledge that there is no way that democrats are going to agree to anything called a wall. their base will not allow it and of course the republican base firmly behind president trump, at least in his belief. he of course staying home, not going to mar-a-lago. his wife melania joining him back at the white house, hunkered down over the christmas holidays. >> you can only imagine he is watching a lot of cable news and doesn't like what he's seeing. doesn't like the optics. we know that yesterday he met with republicans and some of the negotiators, jared kushner and mulvaney. he met with the freedom caucus as well.

he needs that part of the base to essentially sign off on any kind of compromise piece of legislation he agrees to. are you hearing anything about a potential deal coming together behind the scenes and what would that even look like at this point? >> well, there were reports yesterday and of course part of the ritual here is both sides want to appear as if they're willing to negotiate. when in reality it's very clear at this point that they're dug in and there's an a absolute stalemate. we saw mike pence march up to the capitol, drive up to the capitol and go into the offices, the suites of chuck schumer, who told reporters as he walked by and a stone faced mike pence fashion, we're still talking. there were reports that trickled out from the republican side that said that they put a figure on the table, reported to be about $2.1 billion. up from the $1.6 billion that the house had already -- i'm

sorry, the senate had already approved for border security. $2.1 billion was put on the table, the democrats rejected that. that is coming from republicans. so again, at a stand still on christmas eve eve. there's no one around to negotiate today. >> closed on christmas. all right, mike viqueira, thank you. no one is better than covering the developments on capitol hill than you. thank you. coming up, another mystery in the mueller probe as a new legal filing from an unidentified company in an unidentified country is asking the u.s. supreme court to get involved. will it? we'll take a closer look when we come back. ser look when we come back.

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pampers the #1 choice of hospitals, nurses & parents we're learning more today about a court filing asking the supreme court to get involved in special counsel mueller's investigation. a company wants to take the dispute with mueller to the highest court and they're facing a subpoena and doesn't want to turn over its records to a grand jury. joel, ali and eugene and melissa are back with me. so melissa, let me just open this up to you. do you expect the supreme court to take this up?

>> well, that's just another mystery added to the biggest mystery in washington. the biggest mystery, nobody knows who this company is. no one knows the country with which it's associated. we don't know it's after fill yaled with the mueller probe, it's only speculation based on something overheard in the courthouse office. what we do know is that the supreme court rarely ever takes review on cases where the entire proceeding has to be under seal. in cases where that's been requested, the courts decline it and they'll seal it in trade secrets for example. but the idea that the entire proceeding has to be under seal, that seems to be beyond the court and so i think that they're likely to decline to review this. and the circuit court's opinion will stand. >> what's the broader implication for the russian investigation? you make the critical point we don't know that it is. >> so we don't know that's going

on. we don't know if this subpoena is related to the russia probe although it seems like it could be. i think again it just sort of shows that this is really intensifying and there's been speculation that robert mueller will wind things down and we'll know more in february and this certainly adds fuel to that fire. >> ali, we are expecting potentially for robert mueller to submit his report as early as february. to what extent does this impact the presidents' day to day operations? i mean, how much does this weigh on him based on your conversations? >> i just think we're watching it right now. repeatedly throughout the course of the past two years, we have seen that whenever the president is backed against the wall he returns to this concept of promises made, promises kept. that's why he's going to bat for the wall, and pulling troops out of afghanistan and things that he say he can say, look, i'm doing what i told you he'd do. he is very predictable he always

does what he says he'll do. i think that's completely true but he does it the most when he's in a place where he's under fire and has nowhere else to go. >> eugene, the president has said this is a witch-hunt. and that he's basically being targeted for a political reason. and yet, take a look at where we stand as we head into 2019. you have several of his former allies/advisers who have been wrapped up in the russia investigation. michael cohen, for example, michael flynn. what do you make of the fact that this is increasingly encroaching the president, frankly? >> it's causing much danger with the president. even among people who support him very much. i wrote a piece in "the washington post" that says the majority of republicans don't believe that president trump has been completely truthful about russia. >> there's a big problem for him. >> this is someone who is counting on the people, the base, these people who have believed the witch-hunt tweets

and don't like mueller to take his sides but as the investigations expand there's more coming out, more names repeatedly. even those who backed trump are this point i don't know if it's truthful. >> let's look at the number of trump entities under investigation because this past week they agreed to close down the trump organization. take a look at that. it's really stunning. of course not all of that is a part of the russian investigation we want to clarify that. but to what extent does this have a political implication for the president in 2020 and could it help energize his base, sort of the people that eugene touched on. >> absolutely. now, you know, obviously the president is on the ballot, but that also means that the president is going to be on the ballot for senate races for people like cory gardner, susan collins. right? for people like david perdue. all across the country so they're going to have to -- they're not going to have the

option of sitting out donald trump. they are going to have to run with donald trump. also, you know, nixon is the easy comparison here. we like to say this is worse than watergate. i would argue it's warren harding. for history geeks like myself that is everything around him is so corrupted. and everything around him we see now did not exist in any kind of pure form. so to believe that donald trump is innocent here, you would have to believe that in a field of crooks and liars and convicts and people who have done all of the things he's the only honest broker. that's the only case you can make for donald trump being an innocent, you know, aggrieved party here. all of these crooked, you know, untoward people were around him. he's the only honest broker. does anyone believe that? >> yet, that's the exact argument of the white house. they say look these people -- what they did is not related to the president. there was no collusion. we have heard the president say that a number of times. melissa, we started this

conversation talking about a mystery. one of the big ones that i spend most of my days talking about and reporting on, will we see this president ever sit down for an in person interview with robert mueller? we know he submitted written answers and there's discussions going on between the teams. rudy giuliani said there hasn't been a subpoena and he's digging in and we're not inclined to give them more information because we feel this is politically motivated. what are you expecting? >> i don't think he's ever going to sit down with robert mueller and i don't think any lawyer who does not want to be charged with malpractice would ever let him sit down with mueller. because the man lies. he cannot keep the story straight. and he will fabricate and embellish and that's the last thing you want to do when you're testifying in front of a special counsel under oath. >> they have been forthright about the fact they're concerned about a perjury trap. the president said that himself. >> he should be concerned about a perjury trap.

the twitter is part of the problem here. perjury is everywhere. >> not just his relationship with the truth. >> yeah. we'll be watching it very closely. thanks to all of you. i want to thank my panel, joel payne, ali vitali and it's a great conversation. coming up the latest on the shutdown showdown and more on the resignations stemming from president trump's knee jerk decisions. that's all when we come back. ee decisions. that's all when we come back (chime)

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