that's it for me today. thank you for watching. msnbc live with morgan radford starts now. >> hello to you and good morning. joy reed and a.m. joy will be returning next weekend, but this morning new political fireworks as the president blames democrats for the death of two migrant children. >> our president, who apparently lacks any capacity for human empathy, decides to use the death of two children as a political tool. i think it's really yet another new low in a president filled with new lows. >> i don't like some of the democrats using these deaths at political pawns. >> but isn't that exactly what the president just did? >> no. the president is not doing that. the president does not want these children to come on a perilous journey to begin with. >> the latest on a showdown

entering a ninth day with no sign of negotiations. where are the key players right now? >> plus, a new congress with new power. what will democrats do first when they take control of the house. and the way we were. a look back at the people and all those events that made 2018 a year to remember. well, we begin withis morni with a partial government shutdown. now in its ninth day, it continues grinding on with little happening on both sides of the congressional aisle. new members of congress take the oath of office giving nancy pelosi the chance to introduce legislation to end the shutdown. meanwhile, on the republican side, president trump making no public appearances in the last 48 hours. instead, taking to twitter to not only fend off criticism of the show down but also the death of a migrant child in u.s. custody. the white house is now sending its counselor kellyanne conway

on the sunday morning talk shows to relay this message. here she is on fox. >> has the president directly contacted nancy schumer in recent days? >> the president has made very clear that the house passed the package and then what happened here is what always happens, sandra. is the senate then received it. it is with them. they can counter offer. they can sign the $5.6 billion, which is a modest investigate in our nation's security. >> for the latest, let's bring in our white house correspondent, as well as our congressional correspondent. kelly, let's start with you. who is talking? we know democratic party leaders, nancy pelosi, chuck schumer met with the president almost three weeks ago. when is the last time they met with or talked with the president about a deal to end this thing? >> reporter: i checked in with pelosi aids that say she has

received no contact from the president since december 11th. as kellyanne conway laid out there, it is true the house passed a bill and then it moves to the senate. so chuck schumer has really been the point man in his last saturday, not yesterday, but a week ago. the vice president met with him and an offer was exchanged that has not been counter offered by democrats according to white house officials. so what we have is no congressional leaders in town on this sunday. the president alone here at the white house, his wife melania, the first lady, their son are back in florida at their florida palm beach home in mar-a-lago for the holidays. the president is rattling around the white house on his own, not leaving town because of the shutdown, but that's part of why the president has been so active on twitter, even though he does not have public events in the last couple of days since he returned home from iraq. could the president pick up the phone and try to negotiate? certainly he could. we have no indication that has

happened. it does seem based on mick mulvaney saying that he doesn't expect there will be any action until nancy pelosi is voted as speaker in the new week when a new congress is in town. so it seems like everyone has agreed to simply wait. now, i also spoke to pelosi's team who said that she had been on vacation in hawaii but is back in california. she's from san francisco, and she will be in town tomorrow, washington, d.c., new years eve ready to work according to aids. will that mean there will be new conversations? we don't know. it seems like unusually because typically there is a lot of back and forth during a shutdown. everybody seems to be like, we'll wait until next year. >> mike, the question is are we ready because this is the week we have all been waiting for to see what happens on january 3rd. but is the white house ready for the shift of power? are they ready for what this

shift of power could mean? >> that's a great question. there is a lot going on here and it's going to be a significant shift of power in the u.s. house of representatives. we have talked a lot about the change in the gavels. the government reforming, the ways and means committee gavel, that translates into a lot of investigation of the administration and a lot of things that many people, including some republicans privately will tell you have not really been looked at simply because of pure party politics. around the capital over the weekend, you know, i have seen boxes being moved, work crews toting things here and there. it is a game of musical suits that hasn't happened since 2011 when republicans took over from democrats and speaker nancy pelosi. they move across the rotunda into new leadership sweeps with new sweeping views down the mall. that portends what we will be seeing on thursday. it will be a day of ceremony and

a day of smiles, a day of a lot of smiles, i should say. but house democrats and nancy pelosi plan to get right down to work and pass a spending bill that aims to re-open the government. but what happens from there, we simply don't know because, of course, the senate is still controlled by republicans and we don't know if the president would sign anything that passes the house that does not address this $5 billion request wherever it is that the white house is coming down now and what they're offering in terms of this negotiation. >> but, mike, before i let you go, it is interesting because kelly is mentioning how the president is rattling through the white house alone and tweeting. i want to ask about this tweet just yesterday. he tweeted regarding the death of the migrant child that died in u.s. border custody and he blamed democrats outright. how are they reacting today, mike? >> well, we have seen and played in the introthere a democrat from northern virginia who has tens of thousands of federal workers as constituents in his

district. he called it disgusting. we haven't seen a great deal of reaction from democrats because, as kelly pointed out, they have been scattered to the winds, as has republicans. we haven't seen any of them in the hallways in the last couple of days. part of what's happening here, part of the lack of activity that kelly was talking about is a function of the fact it is over the holidays and the fact it is a partial government shutdown, notwithstanding the 800,000 federal workers directly affected by this, as well as the contractors whose immediate futures and paychecks still up in the air. >> still waiting to see if they will be paid in this year. thanks so much for being with us this morning. we also have more this morning from kellyanne conway. she was on fox and doubling down on why the president wants this wall. take a listen. >> we have to be honest about the flood of drugs and crime and dpangs th

gangs coming over. that's not most people. we do know from the dhs statistics that a number of women are saying they are being assaulted. >> let's go ahead and bring in our panel. joe, let's start with you. it's been 18 days since the president and pelosi last spoke. the white house has not reached out to pelosi's staff. and that was really to schedule a get together. have you heard anything differently? have they really not spoken in the middle of a federal shutdown? >> well, it certainly appears that the president is content to let this go on as long as possible. in fact, there is a "politico" report saying that republicans are saying now that they think that it's better for them the longer that the shutdown goes on, which is pretty heartless considering the 800,000 or so federal workers that you said would be affected. also, the president signed an executive order that cut pay for about half of those workers just

a few days ago, just before christmas. it really seems like the goal here is to be as heartless and as cruel and as difficult as possible on behalf of this white house. it will be up to republicans to respond to that. we'll see what they do not just now in the majority, but now they are in the minority, how will they react? are they going to hold this president accountable? >> joe, who is accountable? because we know mitch mcconnell is home in kentucky. the washington post calling him uncharacteristically disengaged. whose job sit to eis it to end stalemate? >> the president. the president said very boldly in the oval office that this was his shutdown, and it is. he owns it. and he can certainly do a great deal to bring it to a close. democrats, i think, and republicans are prepared to talk about border security. very few people are prepared to talk about a wall.

so, you know, at the end of the day, the burden really does lie with the white house to get the government moving again. not just the 800,000 people who were furloughed by the way. you have 13.5 million americans affected by this. >> it's widespread. >> which is interesting because you are talking about the impact of these federal workers. but, darlene, turning to you, something that surprised me was the agency that actually oversees them sent out sample letters to help these furloughed workers negotiate with their landlords and creditors in case they couldn't pay their rent. but is that all they can do? is that all they can do? >> it seems that that may be all they can do to sort of try to figure out ways to help these 800,000 or so workers who are being affected by this shutdown, figure out ways to deal with their landlords, deal with their creditors. mortgage payments are still

going to be due on the 1st of january. the banks are not going to wait just because the government is shut down. so it seems that that's pretty much all that opm can do at this point, is to try to help the workers somehow manage this shutdown for which there doesn't seem to be an end in sight at the moment. >> let's not forget why we're here because the president suggested even if he lost the clash over border construction, it is a strong campaign issue. he called it the issue for 2020. true or false, is this the issue? >> i think you were talking to mr. watkins, yeah. >> yes. can you hear me, joe? >> yes. well, 2020 is still a long ways off, of course, and there will be lots of issues. i think lots of investigations before in 2019 and meeting up into 2020. there are 34 democrats that would like to be the democratic nominee for president. so i think 2020 is a long way

away. i'm not sure this will necessarily be the issue, but clearly right now it is an issue. >> speaking of it being an issue right now, joel, we know that an colter and rush limbaugh sent these strong messages to the president about not backing down on this wall, not backing down on the funding. and liberal groups are also pushing democrats to take a harder stance. so what kind of pressure is the democratic leadership facing in just a mere few days, joel? >> i would say it is less pressure and more support and wind at their back. listen, democrats have been waiting for an opportunity to be partners in government. now they have a chance to do that. they have no reason to back down here. again, as joe said, and i agree with, the president owns this shutdown. he said he wants to own it. democrats are in a position now where they can help craft a way forward that's balanced and that makes sense. that's completely sensible for nancy pelosi to do that just considering the fact that the president had an opportunity actually to pass something before the holidays.

remember, the senate by vote passed a resolution that would have gotten us out of this mess if paul ryan had put it up in the house and the president assigned it. i think the question belongs with mitch mcconnell now. will he put that same resolution back up to put it in front of nancy pelosi when she's speaker so the president can sign that again? that's the question i have going into the new year. >> just before we go, i hear both you and jose say, look th,s is purely on the president's shoulders. are we going to see more of this in 2019? >> well, i think federal workers would say no they don't want to see any more of this in 2019 because it's already been pretty hard on them. the president does seem to have the attitude, however, that shutting down the government is a way for him to get what he wants. it has not yet worked in this case, but we'll have to see how this plays out and see what

strategy he pursues in 2019, whether he will attempt this again at the end of the year when he probably will want more funding for border security or a wall. >> of course, while the livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of people lay in balance in the new year. thanks for joining us, guys. up next, more on the fall-out over the president's comments about the deaths of migrant children. and the latest on secretary nielsen's trip down the border. stay with us. ith us i'm having a tea party with my friends at st. jude children's research hospital. st. jude freely shares our research and discoveries to help save kids with cancer everywhere. would you like a finger sandwich? of course whose fingers? give thanks for the healthy kids in your life, and give to those who are not. donate now at stjude.org or shop wherever you see the st. jude logo.

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any death of a child, any death of anyone is an utter tragedy. i think the president's point is an important one, which is that he's stayed in washington to negotiate border security. i don't like some of the democrats using these deaths at political pawns. >> but isn't that exactly what the president just did? >> no. the president is not doing that. he does not want the children to become on a perilous journey to begin with. >> that's kellyanne conway pushing back on the backlash, reacting to the public outcry after the president mentioned the death of two children yesterday. he took to twitter and blamed democrats. this coming after the dhs secretary wrapped up a series of visits to texas and those arizona border towns. i want to bring in our panel now. we have allen smith, abbie

livingston and the immigration reporter for roll call. let's start with you. kellyanne conway. you heard what he jushe just sa. what do you make of it? >> i think a lot of people were surprised in talking about these migrant children dying that he didn't express more sorrow for their deaths and was pointing directly at democrats to blame them for the situation. we have the shutdowngoing on right now. it will be difficult for democrats to want to come to the table and make a deal that's at all favorable to president trump when he's continuing to blast them publically. at the same time, we see the president's republican support kind of coalescing around this issue being more vocal about wanting the wall as a part of his deal when you saw senate lindsey graham say we want the wall or no deal with nancy pelosi. we're not seeing progress on this. but you see tweets from the president like last night. >> and it also seems like people are criticizing the style in

which he's done it, saying we haven't heard from the president in the middle of this partial presidential shutdown. trump also tweeted that the father of the young girl said it was not border patrol's fault. he hadn't even her water in days. i want to get you to fact check that for us. that seems unlikely. what did the father actually say? did he say he didn't give his daughter some water? >> right. so the father came out a few days later after the border patrol announced that, you know, that there were signs that the child suffered from dehydration. and he asserted that essentially the child did receive food and water while making the journey to the u.s.-mexico border. there is a lot of conflicts. her father. he came out saying she was properly fed and disputed a lot of what the customs and border patrol was asserting, stating that the daughter was, you know,

not fed well or that she was sick when she arrived to the border. she said that was simply not true. the deaths are still being under investigation. they're still not -- they still don't know the actual cause of her death right now. but as we can see, the trump administration is facing intense scrutiny over the deaths of these two children. and a lot of democrats are calling for investigations to really find out the root and the cause of these deaths. you will see in january that a lot of house democrats are going to push for investigations to really get to the bottom cause of what caused the deaths of these two children. >> that's what we will be waiting to see what happens on january 3rd. but i want to turn quickly to outgoing chief of staff john kelly, speaking out for the first time since resigning. i want to show you something he told the l.a. times. he said the former attorney general sessions is the one who instituted the zero tolerance policy at the border and that it, quote, surprised us. abbie, what do you think this

reveals about how policy is created in the trump white house? >> well, i think it is very -- it is a very confused process. the other thing kelly said was he seemed to backtrack a bit on the diction of the word wall, which in a way plays into what pelosi said when she joked more accurately that trump would be happy with a beaded curtain. and, so, the messaging seems awry. the policy doesn't seem very organized. it's just going to be an amazing thing to watch trump negotiate with nancy pelosi, who is one of the master negotiators, even republicans will admit that, in american politics. >> the question becomes what is the solution for something like this? especially when we go back to the reason for the shutdown. what is the answer? is it providing more resources at these intake sessions? what, according to your thoughts, based on what the secretary said needs to happen. >> obviously, in order to make the border more secure, there will have to be additional funding for resources at the

border. now, it is funny because of john kelly's l.a. times interview. he said the wall the president is asking for is not exactly a wall. that contradicts a lot of what we have heard. we are not exactly sure what they are asking for. it is going to be tough for a deal to come together when what exactly being called for isn't necessarily clear. >> that's what people are still trying to get clarity for as we move into this new year. >> with the border being tied, what is the thinking on whether democrats will actually budge for the sake of getting some immigration reform? >> well, it's still unclear. you know, democrats have said time and time again that they're not willing to allocate more than $1.3 billion for border security provisions, not necessarily funding for an actual border wall. you know, they have said in the past that they are willing to fund, you know, more money for border security surveillance, more technology, you know, having more personnel. but it's a very -- they have asserted that they want to see

comprehension immigration reform, but not necessarily border wall. they have time and time again called it ineffective and inhuman and saying that trump just wants to use the border wall as a political ploy to really rally up his support base. but, you know, there is no question that they want to see a comprehensive immigration reform. but there is not a lot of vision as to what this looks like. you will see democrats push for more things, trying to meet the white house halfway. but the issue on fundi ining an actual border wall is something that remains a problem. you saw this last year when, you know, the white house was pushing for $25 billion and, you know, democrats were not willing to -- they were not pushing back on that claim and they ended up giving only $1.6 billion in border security, but not necessarily for the construction of the wall. more so fencing. so what you will see in these

next upcoming months is them trying to reach a consensus of what a comprehensive immigration reform looks like. >> we will have all our eyes on january 3rd to see what happens. nancy pelosi comes back. thank you so much. it's been a pleasure speaking with you. up next, taking charge. the democrats prepare to take control of the house. but what's top of their agenda for day one? stay with us. i knew about the tremors.

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a north carolina seat in congress could remain vacant last week. mark harris, the apparent winner in the ninth district is now fighting accusations that a contract r for his campaign engaged in illegal activity to compromise the election against his democratic challenger. because of it democrats are pushing back, vowing not to seat harris in the new year until an investigation is complete. >> if mr. harris is not certified as the dually fairly legally elected member, we would certainly oppose his seating. we will see what the court does, but it is clear apparently from all sides that there was fraud committed by certain participants in the administration of the election.

under those circumstances, we ought to have a new election for the general election. >> this move comes after north carolina dissolved its elections board on friday and harris denied any wrongdoing. in just four days, democrats will take overcontrol of the house. with so many items to tackle on their agenda, the question now is what will top their list. joining me is joel and joe watkins. let's start with you. there is immigration, gun control, health care, climate change. what item do you think will be front and center? >> well, obviously first order of business has got to be reopening the government. but i think the question is how do they do it? what you will see democrats do and maybe a pivot point here is whether they will do it on a short term basis or a long term basis. a short term allows democrats to control the funding process. a longer term deal probably favors republicans so they could wipe the slate clean of this

issue. there is the special committee on climate change that soon to be speaker pelosi has vowed to open. there is also a civil rights committee on voting rights that mrs. pelosi has said that she's going to prioritize this next congress. that's reflective not just of a changing demographic of the country, but changing demographics of her own caucus. she faced challenges to her speakership. and what we're seeing here is an agenda that reflects more of her members in a more diverse and younger pool of members, their pyre priorities they got from people that voted for them last cycle. >> what can they actually get done because, joe, president trump has called democrats obstructionists. why do you think that is? do you think there is a truth to that? and what can democrats do this month to help foster that? >> democrats have an opportunity

heading forward and taking control of leadership. it hasn't been since 2011 that democrats have controlled the house. this is a big move and a big moment for democrats in the house. but they will be in charge of all these important committees. budget committee, appropriations, ways and means. and the list goes on. and the standing committees they're in charge of now have the ability to subpoena people, to investigate, to hold hearings and the like. so they have got lots and lots of opportunities to really set the agenda up as they have been elected to do in the coming here. it is also a chance to work with republicans to get things done for the greater good of the country. >> you mentioned the coming here, but what about the big picture, joe? what about beyond this year with democrats controlling the house. is this their chance to set the agenda for 2020 for those presidential contenders? >> it is. it helps them set the agenda for 2020. as i said earlier, you have 34

democrats that would love to be the democratic nominee for president. the issue becomes whether or not they will have such a fight to win that primary that they hurt chances for their nominees in 2020. but if they are able to work hard and push an agenda that the democrats support, they can position themselves for 2020 and their nominee as well could be positioned for 2020 and the key issues that will dominate them in that year. >> mr. payne, let's go to you. i want to go back to north carolina for a minute. democrats are vowing not to seat republican mark harris next week given all the allegations of election fraud. how do you see this playing out? >> well, i think, the soon to be majority leader is playing it the right way. he's saying we have got to see the court actually clears the way for mr. harris to be seated. but, you know, this is an issue that democrats should really put back on the white house and the president. remember, the president made such a big deal about election

fraud and voter fraud. his failed candidate of choice in the kansas governor's choice was his guru for election fraud. this just proves that the president is all talk on this and this is an issue for bluster for his base. he doesn't care about this issue. if he did, he would show real leadership by forcing mr. harris to account for what happened or to step aside. >> what say you? does the blame completely fall on the president's shoulders? >> well, certainly the president has talked about this issue a lot. it is something he has raised the awareness of. again, the proof is in the pudding. and this has happened before. i remember in 1984 a candidate ran in indiana for a house seat and was denied being seated once the new congress took place because of the controversy about the actual numbers. and he actually never took his seat in the congress. so i'm expecting this could happen as well in this case.

but, yeah, i think americans really do care about election fraud and americans ought to care as well about voter suppression, especially if you are a person of color. it is something to care about. there is still questions swirling about with what happened in some states in this last election cycle and something that ought to be at the forefront of the congressional agenda as we head into 2019. >> we have seen questions arise. to your point, i think especially for me covering georgia, for example, a lot of people were feeling like this isn't even something we should be having to face in 2018. >> that's exactly right. that's what i was talking about. >> all right. joel and joe -- >> morgan, real quick point. i agree real election fraud, not the fake election fraud that donald trump was talking about, about people voting five times. this is a real issue that he could actually have an impact on. i agree with joe's point on that the president could take it up and make a difference if he

cared about it. >> we'll see what happens. thanks so much for being with us. and you can learn much more about the new congress when joy reed hosts a special town hall with nancy pelosi on friday. that's happening 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. up next, new reporting on paul manafort's contacts with russia during the presidential campaign. was he feeling the heat over debts that he owed? stay with us. you'll find i go to my happy place. see if we let tensions run the show up here, then our bodies won't perform at their best out here. wait, aren't we going to the sound check? priorities. so i'm partnering with cigna, to remind you that how you're doing emotionally affects you physically. go for your annual check-up and be open with your doctor about anything you're feeling. physically, and emotionally. body and mind cigna. together all the way.

my ultimatum is put up or shut up, bob. what do you have? if you had anything, it is not a crime, so what are you doing? >> trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, continues his verbal assault on robert mueller this morning. but a new link between president trump's presidential campaign and russia is coming into focus. this with a bombshell story that says an ex-kremlin spy actually pressured trump's former campaign chairman paul manafort to pay back $19 million in debt he owed to a russian oligarch during the election. he owed us a lot of money and he was offering ways to pay it back. he's been approached by robert mueller's office, but refused to cooperate. so to break it all down, we have danny as well as cynthia. danny, the question of the hour,

is this a smoking gun? >> it could be. if nothing else, it is a link between paul manafort and the russian oligarch who is himself a link directly to the russian government. and what it means is at best, at best for trump, this is a situation where trump knew nothing about it, but paul manafort may have agreed to provide intel on the american campaign to russians in an effort to work off some of his astronomical debt, which ran in the millions of dollars. so the question arises, what kind of information is worth writing off a debt of millions of dollars? >> not only what kind of information, but is this a quid pro quo. is this proof, for example, that manafort may have actually used his role in the trump campaign to curry favor with russia? >> well, it certainly smells like it, doesn't it?

what we know during that time period when he was head of the campaign, the republican platform mysteriously changed to a way that nobody -- everybody is saying, oh, it wasn't me. it wasn't me. i don't know how it happened. and the republican platform changed to something that putin wanted. and nobody has ever taken responsibility for that. and that happened during that time period. the other thing that's interesting about this is when you read all the articles, they say manafort just decided -- disappeared from the debt. he disappeared and then he popped back up during the campaign. and the question that i have is did he really pop back up? or did the russian say to him, you owe. go see if you can get involved in the trump campaign. that's a question we don't know the answer to. >> we also don't know where it ended. >> exactly. >> when it comes to the special

counsel's investigation, time reporting that the russian ex-spy said go dig a ditch. i'm not going to speak to you. why would he not speak to the special counsel but he would speak to "time" magazine. >> many americans have resisted the subpoena power of the special counsel and the government. almost all have failed. but boykin may be in the smaller category that can successfully resist because u.s. courts generally have no subpoena power over a foreign national in a foreign country. maybe that's why he felt so emboldened to speak to reporters but tell the mueller team to go pound sand, go dig a ditch. i'm not helping you out under any circumstances because legally maybe he realized that mueller's team's power is sorely limited in terms of dragging him into court in the united states. he felt powerful and safe enough to say pretty much whatever to journalists. >> you mention the power. but what does that power look like turning into 2019?

seen thr what does the future of this mueller investigation look like? >> it is going to be a busy year. probably soon we will have indictments of stone and corsi. we're getting close to decisions about don jr. both on the obstruction in the russian case and obstruction in the southern district of new york case. we have the sentencing of manafort and clinton. there is so much that will be a very busy year. but upcoming is the stone and corsi indictments. >> but it doesn't stop there because now we have questions, for example, about this new jersey golf course. danny, walk us through that. >> basically, there are reports that the fbi and government have investigated reports of undocumented workers working at the trump golf course in new jersey. what a political irony for the president who promised to attack illegal immigration. but from a legal perspective, it is even thornier for the president if you violated

federal law or local state law in so employing these undocumented or illegal immigrants. if they have access to these employees as the fbi surely does, they can get the story from them. this is something that can be relatively easily verified. as you can see t, the governmen is sprinkling magic beans all over the country. theirsprouting independent from the mueller team's investigation. >> and the problems could continue through 2019, right? >> exactly. they will continue irrespective of how and when the mueller team packs their bags and goes home. >> but my question is going back to the golf course for their viewers. this is about fake green cards, whether or not the president knew that perhaps people were allegedly using these fake green cards to work there. if he knew, is that what the crux of the investigation will rest on? >> even if he did not know, so

long as he should have known or was willfully blind, even that may give rise to criminal or civil liability. and again if you have those individuals there ready and willing and able to talk, then you have got some powerful testimonial evidence about that criminal activity, if there was any. >> and what will 2019 bring? all right. thank you so much for joining us this morning. always a pleasure to speak with you both. and coming up, the year that was. a look back at the top ten stories that defined 2018.

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compelling tostories. take a look. number ten, men we are calling the good fellas. >> just because the word good appears in goodfellas, we should point out to our more sincere viewers. you mean the scorzezzian.

>> eight felony charges. >> so he's lying very simply to get a reduced sentence, okay? >> michael flynn who served as president trump's national security advisor walked into court to plead guilty to a charge of making false statements to the fbi. >> you know what, he happens to be a very good person. >> number nine. our planet. >> it felt like every week there was another story on tv and in the newspapers about another calamity, a typhoon, record rainfalls, floods, anthem, california. the worst fires that that state has ever seen. >> number eight, child separation. >> when you prosecute the parents for coming in illegally, which should happen, you have to take the children away. >> it's so hard to really explain how that story was different, but there were

babies. there were children. there were young people whose lives will never be the same. >> number seven, legal eagles. >> these are the people that are on our shows every night. they're the people we cover outside the courthouses. the lawyers. >> busy season for them. >> number six, mohamed bin salman and vladimir putin. individuals we are calling the rogues. >> british prime minister theresa mayo figures lly accusi russia of killing people with a banned nerve agent. >> this is not the first time they've acted against be our country. >> as soon as we get the facts straight, if we agree with them, we will condemn russia or whoever it may be. >> i keep asking you and all of our other guests on the air how far is this from the normal conventions of how the united states used to behave in the world? >> number five, the new wave. >> if democrats wanted any chance of flipping congressional seats in a deep red state like

kansas, they were going to need a fighter. they found one. >> they had elected a lesbian native american mma fighter with a cornell law school degree. those aren't four people, that's one person, congresswoman-elect shah rece davis. >> it's time for number four on the list, parkland. >> it has happened again. another deadly mass shooting at an american high school. this time in florida. >> 17 people are confirmed dead. >> we want change. we want change. >> they say a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun. we call b.s. >> these young adults changed the gun debate in america. >> number three, the hearing. >> brett kavanaugh is one of the finest human beings you will ever have the privilege of knowing or meeting. >> the nation got to meet d

blassey-ford. she says judge kavanaugh sexually assaulted her in a room. number two on a category on our list, fair wells. we're talking specifically the public farewells for three towering americans. this three's year is topped by bob mueller. >> robert mueller. >> robert s. mueller and he still holds all the cards and he still for a lot of americans represents all the hope that we'll get the truth about how our election shook out. who choose this president, if there was any influence from another foreign power. >> that was msnbc's brian williams and nicole wallace. coming up at the top of the hour, day nine of the government shutdown. we'll have all the latest for you coming up next. gentle means everything,

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hello, everyone. thank you so much for joining us. i'm morgan radford. joy reid and "am joy" will return next week end. new fingfinger pointing and president is blaming democrats

for the deaths of children. >> i don't like democrats using these as political pawns. >> isn't that what the president did? >> no, the president is not doing that. the president does not want them to come on a perilous journey to begin with. will democrats put impeachment at the top of their agenda. more legal woes for the president. why they're focusing on the new jersey golf course and 2020 vision. is another new york billionaire poised to shake up presidential politics? well, as the partial government shutdown now enters day nine, president trump and democrats are locked in a political stalemate over funding for the president's border wall. the blame game, going back and forth continuing all with the president tweeting, quote, any deaths of children or others at the border are strictly the fault of democrats and white house counselor kellyanne conway sharing strong words about the democratic party on fox this morning. >> border security, national

security is everyone's business and it is dismaying to watch a number of these democratic senators who instead of coming to the table and talking about border security for this nation, son dr sandra, running in 2020. >> let's bring in kelli o'donnell and mike vicara. kelli, we heard everyone say, this is everyone's business. what is the latest on the negotiations to end the shutdown? >> reporter: well, morgan, it is still crickets and quiet here at the white house. what we have today is the sunday shows as a launch pad to position both parties for the new week, which includes a new year and a new leader in congress presuming nancy pelosi is, in fact, elected speaker. today you have positioning going on where kellyanne conway is saying where are the democrats with their counteroffer after the president a week ago through the vice president submitted a really kind of a caving on the

wall number from 5 billion down to 2.5, and so far no response from democrats. and democrats, of course, are saying that the president has been too focused on a wall that they believe is not -- not only not practical, too expensive, immoral they say but also not the most effective way of dealing with border security. so today has really been a day about positioning so far with both sides trying to set themselves up for how they will sort of make the argument, perhaps as many voters around the country will tune in again as the holidays and time with family subsides and people get down to what's going on with the shutdown as 800,000 federal workers are affected by this. so pressure points to come. certainly when we have the new congress in place the president will be meeting today with lindsey graham for a lunch date, will be talking about some of these ideas we presume and then it's really about what comes next. the house has passed a measure that kind of went nowhere in the

senate so chuck schumer has been the point person for democrats but it looks like we'll be into the new week before any serious negotiations take place. morgan? >> kelly, you mentioned this question lingering in the air about where is the democrats' counter offer. mike, where is it? what are congressional democrats saying? what would it take to get things back on track? >> listen, the house already passed what the president wanted passed. nancy pelosi said, mr. president, you don't have the votes to pass it. well, it turns out she was wrong. the house of representatives was able to pass the president's $5 billions for the wall and as kelly reported, the trouble is it fell well short in the senate. they need 60 votes. they were up around 46 or 47 votes at that point. they don't even have a simple majority for it. so when the house convenes on thursday the first day of a new congress, a lot of ceremony, a lot of smiles but they will be getting down to business. nancy pelosi, of course, is expected to be the new speaker of the house.

she will have democrats put that on the floor, the bill that would reopen the government, refund the government for an indeterminant amount of time. it might be a stopgap measure for a few weeks, take us to the end of the fiscal year, that hasn't been decided. whatever they pass, can it pass the senate and would mitch mcconnell put something on the floor that the president has promised to veto? we are still in the talking point stage of this as kelly was talking about, positioning. there is nothing going on here. we are on a glide path. the expectation now is this is not goings to be resolved and there's very little movement. it would really be political malpractice for nancy pelosi to negotiate since she holds all the leverage beginning on thursday. >> can it pass, mike, with a new balance of power and new shift. thank you mike and kelly. pleasure. democrats are looking ahead to thursday as mike mentioned. that's when they have a majority in the house giving incoming house speaker nancy pelosi the chance to introduce legislation

to end the shutdown, but according to trump's attorney, rudy giuliani, the ball is already in her court. >> she doesn't mind the government being closed as long as she can -- i don't think vacation, but as long as she can wait until she's speaker. that's fine. don't accuse the president of politics. you're the one that's playing politics. the reality is the president has been sitting there ready to make a deal. >> rudy giuliani said the president is ready. joining me, james la port, investigative reporter at "newsweek" as well as kimberly atkins, bureau chief for the boston herald and jamie lynn small for "time magazine." kellyanne conway, she doubled down on the support of the president's border policy. his choice to blame democrats for the death of those migrant children. we didn't hear a very strong defense from her on that. why not? does that seem like an unpopular opinion even with the president's base?

james, can you hear me? >> oh, i'm sorry. yeah. so the tweet seemed a little bit premature. we don't even have basic answers and our basic answers to questions of why these children died in u.s. custody. so this may come back to actually, you know, ding the white house for the president to come out and say -- to already place blame on the democrats for the death of two children in u.s. custody when we don't even have basic facts. the democrats are already calling for an investigation once they take the house but it does seem like sort of a knee-jerk reaction to place blame anywhere when we don't have basic answers to questions. >> james, you mentioned we don't have basic facts. we all know we are here about this alleged wall. kimberly, i want to turn to you. outgoing chief of staff john kelly tells the "l.a. times" it's not about a concrete wall. is that true or false? will trump's base be content

with anything short of that snnch. >> you know, i recall in that meeting with nancy pelosi and truck schumer donald trump said the word wall 45 times. this has become a drum beat on the part of him and his base who did cheer every time he called for a wall, although at the time when he was campaigning he said that mexico would campaign for it. that part has fallen by the way side, but we see the president keep going back to the use of the wall. there was a bipartisan agreement on immigration that had funding for border security which included, in part, physical structures. it included a part boosting funding for personnel and a lot of different things and the president's the one who walked away from that and he keeps going back to this idea of a wall because i think he does think that that has support among his base but he knows it's going to spur a fight because democrats, as you pointed out, see that not only as just

ineffective and illogical but also as a dog whistle saying to the rest of the world, we are not welcoming these people to our country. >> and, kimberly, the question is the dog whistle working? because as reporters we were talking to everyday voters, i would go to missouri and it was shocking to me how many people said the wall was the most important thing on their agenda. this is not a border state, right? this is not a border town. people are not crossing the border. this was so important to them. so what about compromise? jay, does this suggest that the trump administration is, in fact, willing to settle for something outlined so far? will that alienate his base and put 2020 for him in peril? >> i think it's a real box for president trump here because he's gone into this basically in response to criticisms from his base, from rush limbaugh, from laura ingraham, from fox news and talk show radio hosts and the conservative side who criticized him and said he was

weak, folding, gave in to the democrats easily when he was willing to sign off on the funding throughout the wall. he reversed course and said, no, you know what, i am going to shut down the government and i am going to get the funding. the problem is, we don't know what the meme is going to be and what did they declare victory on? is it a billion dollars worth of funding? doesn't seem like enough. in one of the original bills it's clear that democrats are not going to give the sort of $5.6 billion of funding that was in the house bill and so the white house is sort of floated $2.5 billion but i think we have to wait and see from the democratic side what they're going to counter with. are they going to insist on different kind of border security protections? immigration overhaul? are they going to ask for redefining of visas for loosening up of terms filing for asylum? there's lots of different pieces that will come into play. >> different ways to do it. >> different ways to do it. we have to see what victory means for conservatives and the

president. >> jay, it seems like victory is this constantly moving target on this issue. so, james laporta, we know the conservatives have urged them not to back down. per politico democrats are asking them to take a harder line. per what jane just say, what is the democratic leadership facing right now for pressure? >> the pressure that they're facing is they have to -- the problem with the government shutdown is it sews uncertainty within families who are government workers. as a military reporter i've been looking at what this is doing to the coast guard. at the beginning of the week families didn't know if they were going to get paid. on friday they did do a temporary fix to that, but that's only going to take them to january 15th. so, you know, any time there's a government shutdown, whether it's this time or going back to when it happened in 2013, it sews distrust. for the democrats the pressure is to end it, you know?

in terms of the president's base, you know, the president tweeted out a very interesting poll today. he tweeted out an associated press poll that just came out and 115,000 mid-term voters were polled, but of that there was 4,000 current and former veterans. 62% of the 4,000 current and former military veterans approve of what the president is doing at the border. >> james, i want to jump in. >> that is the president's base. >> i want to jump in when you talk about those veterans because just very briefly, is this kind of going to backfire against the president's base? because constantly having these shutdowns, three so far under him, is this the new way of doing business? are these veterans and are people who were supporting him, are they going to tolerate this anymore? >> so far we haven't seen a backlash because the government shutdown does not affect the department of veterans affairs, it doesn't affect the department of defense because their budgets have already been passed.

however, the u.s. coast guard is funded through the u.s. department of homeland security so it does affect them. like i said, at the beginning of the week, you had about 42,000 coast guardsmen who are prepared to go to work, not going to get paid and their families didn't know if they were going to get paid. on friday there was a fix to that. myself and others who cover the pentagon were trying to figure out how the coast guard is going to cover that $75 million gap. we couldn't get any answers on that but there is a temporary fix. they will get paid on december 31st but if we're talking about their january 15th paycheck, right now they're not going to get it. >> kimberly, i have to say this morning my producer and i were scratching our heads and thinking about the last time we saw everyone in a room together. we haven't seen or heard from these democratic leaders since december 11th. how much of this is just about communication? should we be expecting more activity soon? >> i think the activity we can

expect to see is when nancy pelosi becomes speaker, she's going to swiftly pass one of three funding proposals that she knows will get through the house, at least some of which has already passed the senate in the last congress. so very likely an attempt to push a funding bill right on the president's desk and really force his hand on whether he signs it or not. i think that's the next move here but you're right, since that december 11th meeting with the president and nancy pelosi and chuck schumer, there's been very little talk. also, keep in mind that chuck schumer's not the leader in the senate. that is mitch mcconnell. we have not heard him at all in this and perhaps that's a sign of just how little republicans are interested in trying to cross the president and trying to push him to say, you know what, maybe this isn't the fight we should be having right now. i think the absence of mitch mcconnell has been the most striking in all of this.

>> you mentioned mitch mcconnell. jay, if the house and senate agrees to a deal that does not include border wall funding, who among republicans can convince the president to sign it? >> that remains to be seen. he doesn't have a lot of people who can sway him when he's dug in on an issue. kellyanne conway said this morning she believed the president would veto any bill that came to him that did not include sufficient border wall funding. so he remains committed to that idea, vetoing anything that doesn't include the right amount of funding which means we really are at an impasse. it's hard to imagine how we get out of this frankly because it is really popular with the president's base. he is really committed to this. he really wants this win. democrats are really entrenched to say, no, we are not going to give you this money and we are not going to give you that win. that really appeases their base. i think it's going to be a hard thing to get out of and figure out how to open up the government. >> we are at an impasse indeed. i want to thank our pam and we

look forward to hearing more from them a little bit later in the show. thanks so much, guys. coming up, democrats take control of the house this week amid a growing debate over whether the president should be impeached. we'll discuss that next. help fot failure look like? ♪ the beat goes on. it looks like emily cooking dinner for ten. ♪ the beat goes on. it looks like jonathan on a date with his wife. ♪ la-di-la-di. entresto is a heart failure medicine that helps your heart... so you can keep on doing what you love. in the largest heart failure study ever, entresto was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. it helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems,

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i believe that he certainly qualifies for impeachment. we may never get it done, and maybe democrats fear that somehow if we move to impeach him, maybe his base will grow

larger. i don't think so. i think they're going to shrink. i think that base is going to shrink because they're going to see who this president really is. >> now the democrats have control of the house, it remains to be seen just how far maxine waters and other democrats will go to put those wheels in motion. a reporter who covered the watergate scandal wrote a "new york times" op ed saying of the president, in the end republicans will opt for their own political survival. some senate republicans have speculated on how long his presidency would last. some surely noticed that his base didn't prevail in the mid term so joining me now chris cofenus and ron marin. ron, let's start with you. what are you hearing from republicans? because we talked earlier in the show about reports that mitch mcconnell seemed disengaged. are republicans at a breaking point with the president or are they still standing strong behind him? >> oh, i think the president has

the overwhelming majority support of republicans, not only in congress but also in the -- at the grassroots level. remember those republicans who were most concerned about where their position was with respect to the president lost their re-election to the house so the house republican conference that's left in that minority is going to be more inclined to support the president than the majority that we had before. >> chris, i want to talk about that majority for a minute because a new poll is showing that 39% of americans feel the president should be impeached. so can you give us a sense really of what the risks are for democrats of possibly over playing their hand here? >> i would say the only major risk is you want to stay focused on what the evidence is. if there's evidence for an impeachment, i think you move forward on it. a lot of it's going to depend on the bob mueller report, whenever that comes out. a lot of it i think will depend on what congress or the house may find out in various investigations. so, you know, right now i don't think it's a question of once

they get in do you start impeachment proceedings. i don't think that's what's going to happen. what you're going to have is a series of hearings and then as the evidence rolls out and if there's evidence to do it, then democrats i think will and should. >> you mentioned the evidence but, ron, i want to actually go back to something you said earlier. it plays off of this "new york times" article i saw this morning pointing out that a number of house republicans are going to be playing a new role in the new year and that of the minority party. they're bracing for life on the sidelines. so what do the next two years look like for them? >> well, if you're a house republican, the next two years looks like you get to take some time off in that the rules of the house are such that the majority party has -- holds all the cards and the minority party has no juice and the republicans will adapt to that minority role. they're not going to be instrumental in terms of passing legislation. they have to use their bully pulpit in a communications role to expand their number and to

position themselves going into 2020 and to have their message sync up with the white house. that's not an easy thing to do given where the president goes where he wants to go intuitively. so i think republicans will adapt to being in that minority role but whether they'll be truly effective in terms of building toward a republican majority again, that remains to be seen. the challenge is there and they know how to do it but we'll see if they can. >> you mentioned positioning and messaging. what about the other side of the aisle? chris, we've seeing growing tension between progressives and democrats. it's been escalating. how is nancy pelosi, for example, prepared to deal with this division? >> it's going to be a bit of a balancing act. in a strange way i think the president's decision to shut down the government has more or less coalesced and united democrats against the president. that was an early christmas gift, i think, for democrats. i think going forward, i think you've got to stay focused on what the agenda is and the

agenda is not simply being a check and balance against the president but really pushing i think an agenda that focused on the key issues that everyday americans are concerned about as to why democrats won back the house in such a significant majority. health care, the economy, jobs, retirement, pensions. those bread and butter issues are the key focus that democrats should be centered on. there will be other obviously political issues that are going to come up that will be critical, but that's how i think you unite democrats across various ideological lines. >> you mentioned health care, the economy and jobs. just very quickly which do you think is top of the agenda? >> for next year my guess is you'll see health care number one and, you know, in terms of jobs, the reality is there are a lot of people out there hurting wean low unemployment and addressing that issue is going to be fundamental to democrats. >> chris and ron, do not go anywhere. we look forward to talking with you later in the show. stay put. you can see much more about

the new congress when joy reed holds a special town hall. stay with us, up next teeing up more legal trouble. why one of donald trump's famous golf resorts is now coming under federal scrutiny. gentle means everything,

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welcome back. thanks for joining us. i'm morgan radford. president trump woke up to more legal woes. according to the "new york daily news," federal and state investigators are collecting evidence from the president's new jersey golf club and they're trying to figure out whether it violated immigration laws by allegedly providing fake green cards to undocumented immigrants that work there. let's bring in arianna burg and guy lewis. what are the possibility that the president actually knew about this? what are the legal implications if, in fact, he did? >> morgan, i think it's probably unlikely that the president himself actually knew about it, at least i'm not seeing any evidence that the president was involved in it or knew about it. however, that doesn't mean that it's a problem -- that it's not a problem, that it's not a

problem for the president and for certainly the golf course itself. it is a federal offense. you cannot hire illegal immigrants to work. it is a federal law. we deal with it all the time here in south florida when i was u.s. attorney. and it's additionally a violation of federal law to supply phony or fake green cards. again, we saw that down here in florida. you could buy them almost off the street for almost nothing. >> wow. >> so the thing i found, morgan, that was fascinating about this, at least the initial reports indicate that it's not i.c.e., immigration custom enforcement, the old ins, it's not i.c.e. investigating this. they would normally be the organization that would investigate this kind of offense. >> this is a departure from standard procedure? >> yes. and from what i'm hearing, and i can be corrected, but from what i'm hearing, it's the fbi who

are over there snooping around asking questions about this. that in and of itself, very unusual. >> guy, we do know that federal and state prosecutors are asking questions but arianna, how concerned should the president be at this point? >> well, you know, he should be concerned because this is one of his golf courses. certainly the political irony here dealing with potential immigration fraud in one of his properties is not lost on the american public and certainly not lost on investigators. as guy mentioned, there are immigration laws in place to guard against hiring illegal and undocumented immigrants and also procuring for them fake green cards, which is alleged here. the question is, of course, how far up did it go? it appears that there are at least five undocumented workers

who are willing to come forward and speak to the fact that a fake green card was procured for them, and if the fbi, if the new jersey attorney general's office is able to secure their testimony, which they may under a cooperation agreement, and if they get all the documents in place -- >> right. >> -- then certainly the supervisor, anyone at the golf course who knew about this and participated in this could be charged. whether it goes up to trump, i agree with guy, we'd have to see a lot more. it would have to be such a pervasive pattern and practice of immigration fraud in order to see it go to trump. >> arianna, i want to interrupt you for a minute and go back to something you said. you asked how far up does it go. guy, i want to ask you. there's this bombshell report in "time magazine" that says paul manafort was pressured by an

ex-russian spy to pay back millions that he owed to a russian oligarch. he owed us a lot of money and was offering ways to pay it back. so my question, guy, if trump knew, what would that mean for him legally? >> boy oh, boy, morgan, big trouble. non-legal jargon, big, big trouble. that's what always -- my point's been on this case is follow the money. there's always been -- there has to be a motivation behind manafort being involved in the campaign. was this evidence of a quit pro quo? >> prosecuted twice, they brought the hammer down on him. they're going to ask for a maximum sentence. when sentencing comes around both on both of his cases, i mean, effectively manafort's facing -- i mean, i don't want to be dramatic, but it is a --

the rest of his life in jail unless -- >> big stakes. >>unless he cooperates. >> arianna, my question to you, can mueller actually use that time interview in any legal proceedings or is this really just considered hearsay? >> so that's always the question we have to ask ourselves is what evidence will prosecutors have that they can use in court and could form the basis of any charges. what we know from the "time" reporting is that there are e-mails in which manafort offers russian oligarch private access to the trump campaign in the form of private briefings, and he does so, according to these e-mails, he does so in order to get whole on this $19 million debt that manafort owed him. so that's very powerful if the

prosecutors have these e-mails and they do, in fact, say what "time" is reporting, that's very powerful. but e-mails unto themselves may not be enough. you want some sort of inside witness to also corroborate what these e-mails show. >> that's what we're waiting to see. we're waiting to see if someone else is going to come forward and speak publicly because so much of this has been happening behind closed doors. so much of this has been happening under the shroud of secre secrecy. one person who is speaking out, trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani. i want to play some sound that he left us on the air waves. >> it should have been wrapped up in may or june. that's when they figured out they had no evidence of collusion. i'm challenging them, put up or shut up. it's time for them to submit a report. they don't have, as we would say in new york, a damn thing. >> strong words, guys. put up or shut up. there's no leverage. so what is the president's legal

strategy per giuliani? >> well, i've got to tell you, morgan, be careful what you ask for. he made -- robert mueller eventually is going to put up. he's not going to shut up. there is a point to be made that we need, the country needs and mueller needs to proceed with dispatch. i went back. it was very interesting on this point because you've heard this over and over again from the trump lawyers. i went back and looked at some of the other special counsels. ken starr's seemed like it took a long time. nine months. spiro ago knn agnew, two months. nixon himself, 12 months. we're now into the 20th month on bob mueller's investigation, who i respect greatly. >> a long time. >> i'm in favor of moving this case forward and bringing it to a close if that, indeed, is what

the evidence suggests. >> i think we are all interested in seeing this case move forward and what it reveals. thank you so much for joining us this morning. coming up, 2019 may be just two days away, but many voters and candidates are already seeing 2020. we'll have more on that coming up next. up next. re's to first dates! you look amazing. and you look amazingly comfortable. when your v-neck looks more like a u-neck... that's when you know, it's half-washed. add downy to keep your collars from stretching. unlike detergent alone, downy conditions to smooth and strengthen fibers. so, next time don't half-wash it. downy and it's done.

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campaign is underway. "the new york times" reporting that some likely presidential contenders, for example kamala harris, elizabeth warren are shifting into high gear interviews aides and scouting out headquarter locations. michael bloomberg was sounding a lot like he was also interested in the job. take a listen. >> the presidency is not an entry-level job, okay? we have some real problems. if you don't come in with some real concrete answers, the public is sick of listening to the same platitudes. we're in favor of god, apple pie. no. you have to have a plan. >> back with us, our panel. ron, let's start with you, cnbc is reporting that michael bloomberg is prepared to spend $100 million on a 2020 campaign. what message does that send? >> one is that i remember about

this time a couple of years ago when all the really, really smart people were absolutely certain that jeb bush was going to be the republican nominee in 2016 and he spent more money than anyone did in the presidential contest and walked away with barely a handful of delegates. so, number one, the amount of money that you have does not correspond to your ability to win the nomination. number two, democrats have to look for a candidate who is going to be a good fit for the times. and i think that in 2022 -- in 2020 their best shot is with a candidate who provides the opposite of what president trump is offering. that gives them their best shot. number three is that they need a campaign that is sophisticated for the times as well. there were plenty of candidates in the past who would win the iowa caucuses, for example, but they would have no game plan to capitalize to go further. >> right. >> you need the right candidate, the right campaign and you need

to be sufficiently resourced. having the most money is not the prescription for victory. >> kimberly, is bloomberg that right candidate? would voters rally around another new york billionaire? >> i think when you have someone, again, someone from new york who earned a great deal of money in the private sector and then went into politics, that seems the opposite of what you were just talking about. that seems very similar to donald trump. i think bloomberg is -- is somebody who would he make it through a primary and i think the likelihood of that is really small. might be someone who could appeal to, say, independents, but the problem is with the democratic party that we have right now and the way that it's coalescing and the issues that are on the table, including things like criminal justice reform and you have someone like michael bloomberg who was a strong proponent of say, stop and frisk, he's going to run into some serious head winds if he launches a presidential bid. >> i was talking to a lot of

trump supporters on the campaign trail, there was a lot of tension. they liked that he had money because they feel like he had nothing to win. he was doing this out of the goodness of his heart and as a public servant but on the other hand they had to acknowledge that he was breaking the traditional paradigm of what it meant to be a politician. do you think bloomberg could tread that similar line? >> i think it could be tough. having a lot of money has been replaced with bringing in a lot of small amount of donations from the broad base of people. that's the new badge that i think successful candidates are carrying. i think we saw a lot of examples of that in the mid term. i'm not sure coming in with a big cash kitty is going to get you as far as it did in the past. i think the point about jeb bush is very well taken. >> chris, i want to bring you in. i want to shift to the midwest for a moment. we have ohio senator sherrod brown and amy cloe bu char

talking about honoring midwest voices. >> there are a lot of people running but i do think it is important for people running from the midwest. the midwest came roaring back in 2018. i think it's important whoever we put up has an understanding of those voices that weren't heard in 2016 from the midwest and the middle of the country. >> is she right, true or false? can the democrats win back ohio, pennsylvania, michigan without someone from the midwest? >> she's partially right. you can't win the presidency unless you're going to win some equation involving ohio, pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin. so, you know, democrats to be effective and beat trump if he's actually the republican nominee are going to need an ability to kind of reach into those, you know, heartland states and really kind of talk to those more middle of the road voters. i think the problem with the equation is it's almost kind of looking too forward. the democratic primary because

especially when you're talking about potentially 20 candidates or more, this is not going to be a policy debate. this is going to be a debate about who can excite the base more and i think you're going to see a real tension between candidates i think who want to run more a centrist approach versus those who are going to run more of a left approach. the problem is going to be now where the energy is is much more on the left approach. it's going to move the field further left. if you can't get that grassroots excitement, that grassroots energy, doesn't matter if you have a billion dollars or no money, you're not going to go for it especially in the early states. >> chris, you mentioned the energy. ro ron, where is the energy? is there any republican that will challenge donald trump? >> there is no republican who can pose a serious challenge to donald trump. zero. no chance. doesn't matter. jeff flake, john kasich. anyone else who might have delusions of grandeur, it's not going anywhere.

all of us are going to be watching what happens on the democratic side. that's where all the action is going to be, and if they have 20 candidates the undercard debate will need its own under card debate going forward. i do think there is something to be said. it's interesting to watch these candidates, bloomberg and otherwise, they're going to try to define -- >> i think we lost -- we just lost your shot for a minute. kimberly, if you're still with me. i want to come back to you on my next question. yesterday we were speaking to some of our guests about the question of diversity and what it meant to have a lot of these fresh faces now in congress. howard dean actually said the democratic party needs diversity to win 2020. let's take a listen to what he said. guys, do we have that in the control room of howard dean. >> have a ticket with two white men at the top of it because our party relies on the following groups. one, young people who must be excited and motivated to get out or we don't win. two, people of color,

particularly women. and, three, women in general. that's the core of our party, the core base. >> kimberly, i've heard a lot from the republican party about acknowledging that they need diversity, but what about the democrats? how important or crucial is diversity for 2020? >> i mean, it's very crucial. if you just look at the dem graphics of the democratic party, even its base is far more diverse than the republican base so i think, for example, focusing too much on the midwest, yes, the midwest is important, but focusing too much on the midwest seems like democrats trying to use the republican playbook to win and knowing that the democratic -- >> which may not work for their base. >> right. it's far more diverse economically, racially and in other ways that you do need a candidate who can speak very genuinely to the needs of everyone in that base. i think that's the point that howard dean is getting at. it's not that being a white man in itself is disqualifying when we've seen people like bill

clinton be able to campaign. you need somebody who speaks that language in ag genuine way to excite that base. >> i'm interested when you say the word disqualifier, even as a reporter it's kind of frustrating when you hear people say diversity when it comes down to your background, geographic upbringing. these are all things that people are considering when they look to that field of candidates. kimberly, don't go anywhere. we want to come back to you later in the show. chris and ron, we thank you for joining us. coming up next, a glimpse into the future. my panel predicts the political headlines that we will all be talking about in 2019. stay tuned. i've always been amazed by what's next. and still going for my best, even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin... i want that too. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less

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what will we see? >> so for me i'm really watching what will the withdraw of troops from syria look like and those are the two issues i'm looking at. we are seeing signs that the president will use both the u.s. withdraw from syria and pulling out -- they are planning on pulling out 7,000 troops from afghanistan. we are seeing the president sort of tout those numbers. those are two issues i'm really looking at. how does that effect the global stage in syria? is there some sort of correction plan? we are predicting that turkey is planning on wanting to bomb them

from the air. right now they don't have any aircraft support. what is that going to look like? is the president going to try to end the 17 year war? >> following that closely. where is your crystal ball? let's talk about things here at home. who is the winner? >> yeah. i think it will be one of the biggest stories of the year. it will be the first time he has someone pushing back against him. aside from the mueller investigation the political will be the battle more to come?

is this the last one we'll see? >> i think it will be a theme that we'll keep repeating. i think we are looking at a bunch of funding measures. so it leads to an opportunity to shut down the government. this is an opportunity that both sides look eager to take over and over and over again. it is potentially more furloughs throughout the year. >> do you think we are going to see a lull?

we are looking at 17 potential investigations into trump. it will be a year of investigations. it will be enormous. it is also going to be a year where democrats have to try to maybe pass something. so where are they going to work together? are they going to come together on some kind of infrastructure bill? those are areas where there might be common ground. there is a potential to do some kind of legislating. it will be fighting over what they will get for the wall and not. if they will build the wall or not and if they will shut down the government again and again or not. >> and here is to helping that window reopens. thank you. coming up, who will wind up blinking first and why? we have all of the answers ahead. l of the answers ahead. i knew about the tremors.

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that's it for me. thank you so much for joining me this morning. we'll be back at 10:00 a.m. eastern. she will be moderating a town hall. that's at 10:00 p.m. eastern. coming up next we have the latest. good afternoon to you. >> good afternoon to you. >> for now as you head off i'm

francis rivera. it is 9:00 out west. here is what's happening. new reaction from the sundays showing to the shutdown stalemate, who will brink first? >> i don't like some of the democrats using these as political pawns. >> you had two young innocent children die in american custody. >> nothing will get out of the senate without walls slash border funding. >> i think it's everybody's fault. this is unacceptable. >> john kelly opening up about immigration and what it was like, hear from the reporter who worked with him. the trump administration facing the prospect of facing the new year with a partial government shutdown. blaming democrats for not negotiating an end