now that you know the truth, are you in good hands? it's so nice to be back. thanks for watching. my thanks to joyce vance, charlie sykes, the rev. i'm nicolle wallace. i'll see you back here monday for "deadline white house" at 4:00 p.m. no end in sight. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. president trump and congressional democrats are no closer to a deal to reopen the government as that partial shutdown barreled today into its 14th day, emerging from a nearly two-hour meeting from inside the white house this morning, minority leader chuck schumer

called the talks contentious. president trump called them productive. democrats saying president trump admitting that he told them he is ready to keep the government shut down as long as it takes to get money for a wall. >> we told the president we needed the government open. he resisted. in fact, he said he'd keep the government closed for a very long period of time, months or even years. >> he also said you said in the meeting, this is him quoting you, i just want to check, that the shutdown could go on for months or even a year or longer. did you say that? and -- >> i did. i did. >> is that your -- >> absolutely i said that. i don't think it will. but i am prepared -- i hope it doesn't go on even beyond a few more days. it really could open very quickly. >> the president's comments came in a lengthy rose garden news conference following that meeting with congressional leaders from both parties.

president trump and comingle democrats remain at odds over his demand for $5.6 billion for a wall. trump said he is convening working groups from both the white house and congress through the weekend to come up with some sort of a solution to the impasse. as the shutdown reaches the two-week mark now, the president was asked about the delay. >> why did it take this many dates for a working group to come together? why didn't you just hash the details out -- >> sometimes that's what happens in a negotiation. it does take longer than it should. and sometimes you agree to things that could have been agreed to two weeks ago, but that's just the way a negotiation is. >> but with congress adjourned until tuesday, the standoff is almost assured of lasting at least until wednesday at the very earliest. the president was asked if he would consider bypassing congress in some way to build the wall. >> so you don't need congressional approval to build the wall? >> no. we can use -- absolutely. we can call a national emergency because of the security of our country. absolutely. no, we can do it. i haven't done it. i may do it. i may do it. but we could call a national emergency and build it very

quickly. and it's another way of doing it. but if we can do it through a negotiated process, we're giving that a shot. >> so is that a threat hanging over the democrats? >> i never threaten anybody. but i am allowed to do that, yes. >> second question -- >> it's called a national emergency. >> for her part, house speaker nancy pelosi said the two sides made some mild progress today. >> did you make any progress on a dollar figure for what the president wants or what you all want from him? >> how do you define progress in a meeting? when you have a better understanding of each other's position, when you eliminate some possibilities? if that's a judgment, then yes, we made some progress. >> i'm joined now by new jersey democratic congressman josh gottheimer, former congressman carlos curbelo from florida, jennifer rubin, opinion writer for the "washington post."

and jonathan lemire, white house reporter for the associated press. congressman, you're the only one on this panel with a vote on this potentially if and when it comes to that. so let me start with you. the president said today that he told those congressional leaders that he'd be willing to let this go on for months, maybe even a year. what is your -- do you think it is realistically possible this thing? we're measuring it in two weeks right now. is it possible this could stretch on into months? >> i think that's absurd. i think what we need to do is actually stay the table, both sides, and keep working together until we get the government reopened. i just don't understand. we passed this week out of the house legislation to reopen the government. one of the first moves the democrats did this week. it's going to go to the senate. it's what they passed a couple weeks ago in a bipartisan way. it passed this week in a bipartisan way, including members of the problem solvers caucus which carlos was a member of until recently. i don't see why we can't get together and get the government back open. >> is that the democratic position now? because it sounded like

listening to the democratic leaders today saying they went into that meeting telling the president just reopen the government first, then have tha negotiation over border security, fencing, wall, whatever it's going to be -- any side is going to want to call it there. is the democratic position just clean continuing resolutions to reopen and no negotiations nof any sort until that happens? >> well, i know what my position is. i don't know what the other positions are. i think we should sit at the table and talk to each other. we should reopen the government. that just makes sense. it's costing us in productivity. it's costing us dollars. it's costing small businesses not getting loans here in my district. air traffic controllers tell me the skies are at risk. so what i think we need to do is reopen the government and then of course we should be talking about having tougher borders and there's plenty of options on the table. we should continue that discussion and we should keep working on it. there is no reason why you can't do both. so i think it's a false choice, and i think we should do our responsibility, the right thing, which is get the government back

open and work on making sure our borders are secure. >> the other piece of -- one of the other pieces of this, jon lemire, you heard the clip there, the president saying there's this idea of invoking a national emergency and building this somehow by executive fiat. i know he raises this possibility of dramatic if vague executive action from time to time. does this fall in the category of bluster or is there something going on in the background here where the white house is actually prepared to try to make some kind of executive move on this? >> there have been a few initial steps to look at it. it's unclear whether he actually does have the authority, whether it's going to be a legal thing for him to do. i think this falls more under the category of the president sort of talking big. wanting to present an option that is better than what he currently faced. he is in a bit of a corner right now. i think there's a growing reality in the white house that that's what happened here, that he was -- he caved to the pressure of members of the conservative media who said to him that if you take this original deal that didn't have the money for the wall that's a loss, you're throwing away your

presidency. and he balked. he signaled he was going to sign it. he signaled he was ready to go forward with this. and he changed his mind. this is a moment where there are very few -- there are not that many republicans. we're seeing some signs of strain in the senate right now, some who have said, susan collins and a few others, have said they should reopen the government, this should not be how we do this. the border security stuff should be separate to the idea of the government being open. but the president, as he so often does, is focused almost exclusively on his base, believing that they are behind him for this fight. they think that this is why he was sent to washington. this was his signature campaign promise. he is to upend government. and he thinks that if he were to suddenly cave right now, he might for the first time risk losing even some of that support. >> you mention those republican senators, cory gardner, susan collins. one person who was conspicuously absent from that rose garden today, senate majority leader mitch mcconnell. according to the "new york times," "mcconnell for the first time is facing pressure from members of his own party to step in to resolve the stalemate."

but mcconnell told politico "i don't see how that leads to an outcome and i want to get an outcome. that will be determined by the president and senate democrats." here is what trump said when asked why mcconnell wasn't in the rose garden. >> why is he not here in the rose garden right now? >> because he is running the senate. mitch mcconnell has been fantastic. >> well, carlos curbelo, somewhere in this chain here, house democrats, senate republicans, trump white house, there has to be some kind of give here to get the government reopened. a lot of folks are looking at the senate right now as most likely place for that because of that dynamic we were just talking about here. some of these republicans who maybe are up in 2020 who are more from swing states. do you think that's a realistic possibility, that there will be pressure, political pressure from republicans on the senate side that budges this along? >> i think it is a possibility, steve. when we think about what's happened here, both sides in this conflict have kind of locked themselves into a labyrinth and turned off the lights.

and i think there is one obvious way out. it's something josh and i worked on in the 115th congress, and that is a compromise on immigration. probably the most divisive issue in our country right now. there is a very elegant compromise out there that's been staring at members of congress and the administration for two years, and that is more border security to fight drug trafficking and human trafficking at the southwest border combined with a permanent solution, a path to citizenship for daca dreamers, for the young immigrants brought to our country as children. you're hearing more and more talk about this. lindsey graham is expressing a willingness to engage in this discussion. vice president pence has said this is a possibility. i think this is the obvious way out of this conflict where both sides can claim victory because otherwise, the only way out is for one side to appear to capitulate before the country. we know the president is in no mood to do that, and certainly

democratic leaders in the house and senate aren't either. so i think that's the answer, and people in congress need to listen to members like josh gottheimer and others, problem solvers who can make these deals happen, who can sit at the table and actually find some consensus here. that's what i think is needed. >> that possible compromise you're talking about, yes, it has been floated before. it did come up in the rose garden today, that possibility of daca for border security, fence, wall, again, whatever anybody would end up calling it. the president seemed to be saying that court rulings last year had changed his thinking on that. but that does continue. the possibility does continue to linger out there that that might ultimately be some kind of resolution here. but jennifer rubin, let me ask you about this as well. obviously political calculations here enter into the posture on any side. if somebody is feeling in a government shutdown the political heat, we've seen in the past that's always when that side will end up folding. democrats it doesn't seem are feeling much political heat

right now in terms of their posture on the house side. i'm wondering, just watching the president with that sort of stream of conscious press conference there in the rose garden today, the thought occurred to me more than once that he himself -- i don't know about his party -- but he himself might be enjoying this standoff. >> i don't know if he is enjoying it or not. he certainly was incoherent, however. if he is going to bring up these mysterious powers that he apparently has, he might want to ask the historians who were there when harry truman was in office and tried to seize the steel mills and the supreme court said no, you don't have these secret emergency powers. but he really is in a box. and i don't think it's fair to say that both sides are in a box. the democrats are in the cat bird seat right now. they voted to open the government. they're going through their agenda. they're going to push a whole bunch of bills on to the doorstep of mitch mcconnell. and what is mitch mcconnell doing? nothing. i don't think that's a sustainable position for him or

his members. listen, he's a part of the first branch of government too, and for him to sit back and say i have no role here, i'm just a minion of the presidency and the white house, degrades the office that he has and degrades the united states senate. so i think he's going to have to get off his back side and get into this. why doesn't he vote on the bill that came over or make changes to that bill and send it back or put his own bill on the floor? he's being entirely at this point passive, in part i grant you because he doesn't know what trump is going to do. but you know what the solution to that is? the congress makes a deal. they pass laws. they send them to the white house, and the executive branch decides if he is going to sign or veto them. that's how the system is supposed to work. the system is not supposed to work that the senate gums up the works or the house gums up the works in order to protect the president from having to do anything. that's just not our system of checks and balances. and i don't think doing nothing is a solution for mitch mcconnell.

>> carlos curbelo, let me ask you about that, because you know a little bit from the inside there, the republican side on capitol hill how the thinking goes on these things. try to put yourself -- you're out of office now, maybe it could be a little bit more expansive in your thoughts here. but try to put yourself politically in the shoes of mitch mcconnell right now, who all the reporting suggests feels he got burned by the white house a couple of weeks ago on this. he's got some members, cory gardner from colorado, who are starting to get a little politically uncomfortable. what is the play here for mcconnell? >> you're exactly right. mitch mcconnell did get burned. one thing i learned about mitch mcconnell is he only gets burned once on any one issue. and i don't think he is going to proceed until he is sure that whatever the solution is can pass the house, can pass the senate. obviously that means 60 votes. and get the president's signature. so i think in this case senator mcconnell's really doing the best anyone could given his position, which is just to

encourage the white house and democrats both in the senate and in the house to negotiate until there is something that's amenable to all parties. and again, i think the only such solution is that daca plus border security compromise. and i don't really see senator mcconnell moving. and part of the story here, steve, is that the country has grown so numb to these shutdown situations. you look at these financial markets. they're kind of ignoring it. i think most americans are ignoring the situation, obviously with the exception of the federal workers who are suffering through this. but the country is so sick of this shutdown drama, so many people don't take it seriously anymore. it's just another example, an indication of how far our politics have fallen in this country. >> i just think that's totally wrong. that's totally wrong. >> i just want to get -- well, one quick thing here i want to follow up on this. realistically, this idea, and again, former congressman curbelo is putting it out there. daca border security deal. in terms of the white house's

posture on this. we heard what the president said publicly today. privately, is there any movement there? >> there has been at least a rekindling of some discussion. in fact, it was telling last night, people i talked to close to the white house noticed that sean hannity on fox news, who frankly sometimes acts as an unofficial white house spokesman, floated this very idea on his show last night. the question is was that a float with the president's blessing or is that his attempt to steer the president a certain way, which we know sometimes advisers to donald trump find the best way to advise him is to do so through television. this is something that the president himself was -- they were considering this deal, remember, last year. a similar structure. and then of course as he said today, the courts stepped in and he sort of turned on it. they're not actively seeking out this deal, but i don't think they have ruled it out entirely just yet. it's going to depend on where else this goes in the next few days and weeks. >> thank you to congressman joshua gottheimer from new jersey, former congressman carlos curbelo from florida, columnist jennifer rubin, jojt lemire.

coming up, nancy pelosi is most powerful woman in american politics right now. joy reid sat down with the new speaker of the house today. she is here to give us a preview. plus, are vulnerable republican senators feeling any political heat to reopen the government? i'm going to head over to the big board. we're going to break down some interesting numbers there. and more from the rose garden today where president trump said the shutdown could last months or even years. are the american people going to be okay with that? and finally, let me finish tonight with democrats and the "i" word. this is "hardball," where the action is. ♪ memories. what we deliver by delivering. take your razor, yup.

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comparative wilderness on capitol hill, nancy pelosi is now the most powerful and important democrat in american politics. the speaker of the house and the highest ranking democrat in donald trump's washington. pelosi claiming back the speaker's gavel yesterday, and joined by a large and diverse new class of democrats. the democratic freshman include 24 people of color, 42 new female members and the first native american women. in the hours since retaking the majority, pelosi and the democrats have passed legislation with their offer to end the shutdown and introduce legislation on voting rights, ethics reforms, and the bid to require presidential tax returns. if those bills make it out of the new democratic house, they will still need to clear the still republican senate, where mitch mcconnell holds sway if they're ever going to reach to it the president's desk. joy reid, host of "a.m. joy" sat down with speaker pelosi for an exclusive town hall. it's going to air at 10:00 tonight. she asked about her new relationship with mitch mcconnell. let's watch. >> mitch mcconnell, your colleague, your counterpart in the senate, has made it clear that even though these were senate bills that were passed by republicans, that he won't put them back on the floor unless the president approves of them. how do you get around this conundrum?

if the other half of the first branch of government will only act at the behest of the president. >> well, i think that what mitch mcconnell is doing, and i say this as respectfully as possible, is saying we're not needed, congress might as well stay home. all we need is one person to show up, donald trump. and that's not what our founders had in mind. they talked about coequal branches of government. article 1, the legislative branch, the people's branch of government. >> and joy reid joins me now. again, counting down here to that town hall here tonight. joy, a lot of interesting stuff in here. but to connect it to what we've been talking about, what everybody is talking about right now, the shutdown is still ongoing. so you see a little bit in the answer there you got from pelosi, an attempt a little bit publicly maybe to shame mcconnell into doing something. but how is that going to play out over the next few days in terms of the dynamic between pelosi and mcconnell, the capitol hill side of the

shutdown? >> you know, i have to say, steve, i think you as a historian of sort of the way that washington has worked, history is full of powerful speakers, the tip o'neill, sam rayburn class of speakers, the newt gingriches, people who wield considerable power in the body and also full of powerful senate leaders. you think of lbj, of course, being the classic version. but at one time mitch mcconnell styled himself that kind of senate leader. when president obama was in office for eight years, mitch mcconnell wielded power quite ruthlessly and made it very clear that the president was not a more important or powerful figure than him as far as he was concerned. as soon as donald trump was elected president, mitch mcconnell immediately, as did most republicans, as did the former speaker of the house, paul ryan, subordinated himself to this president. and he's still doing it. i think what you saw today was nancy pelosi trying to push mitch mcconnell to say guard the power of the united states senate. let's make ourselves once again

a coequal branch of government. this tradition of sending bills to the president's desk and letting him veto, it's gone. the current president doesn't have to veto anything because he has to approve before the united states senate will even vote on a bill. i think both in her acceptance speech for the speakership and today in the interview that i did with her at trinity washington university, nancy pelosi said mitch mcconnell, do your job. guard the senate. send a bill to the floor, send the bill to the president's desk and let him veto it if he wants. >> another part of this town hall that is going the air, again, a couple of hours from now. pelosi was asked what kind of challenges she faces as the most powerful female politician in the country right now. let's watch. >> whatever the path, whether it's right out of college or whatever, know your power. just know your why. why are you interested in public service, or whatever it is. the academic world, the

military, corporate america, whatever it is. know your why. know your subject, why you're doing it, know why you're doing, what it is so that you can speak with authority on it. have a plan. be strategic. and communicate. if you show your vision, your knowledge, your plan, you will be able to attract that connection that is so important. so have your own confidence. dent worry about their hang-ups. >> i guess that -- that's an interesting question too. just a broader one. i'm curious what your sense of it, joy, is, what nancy pelosi's vision of the leadership is. this is something -- she's a legislative master. she understands coalition politics. politically she's a disciple -- 40 years ago phil burton who had the congressional seat before her, he was a legislative master. she comes from that same school. what is her vision of this speakership in the trump era? >> you know, we got to it a little bit later in the interview, talked a little more personally about her. this is a woman who comes from a

household of executives, two mayors, her brother as well as her father. she understands and is not embarrassed about wielding power. sees the speakership the way that past speakers, the tip o'neill school saw the speakership. it is a tremendously powerful office. it's called the third most powerful office because of the vice president, but in a way it's the second most powerful office. this office has the act to go head to head with the president. she is not embarrassed about wielding that power. steve, we're in this era where everything a woman who seeks power or holds power does gets hyper scrutinized. including by us. if you're dancing when you were in high school, we're going to scrutinize that. if you're cursing, we're going to scrutinize that. if you just want to be president suddenly we're digging into everything about you and scrutinizing down to your dna. women who seek power instantly get the question are you likable? are you being nice enough? it's a very different way than we treat men who seek power. and so one of the things that's

unique about nancy pelosi, even before she was speaker is she's not embarrassed about seeking power. she sought the speakership. she was clearly going to get the speakership. she wasn't going to be deterred by all these arguments about it being unlikable or unpleasant for a woman to step up and say give me the gavel. she did it. she said give it to me. she said, win, however you need to win, say what you need to say. but when it comes time to vote for the speakership, i'm going to win. and i think that that is a model for the way women potentially can seek and hold power, you that don't have to worry about likability. this woman runs that body. she counts those votes. she doesn't put a bill on the floor that she doesn't think she can get passed, and she, more than anyone else besides harry reid and president obama's persuasive powers, made health care happen, right? the affordable care act. now she is there to defend it. so i think that her vision of the future, i even asked what her legacy is going to be, is that the things she wants done in government, she wants to be able to at least get to a vote. if those things don't pass the united states senate, in her view, that's on mitch mcconnell.

she is going to demonstrate what democrats are capable of doing with power, and whether that's transparency, whether that's protecting health care, whether that's environmental protection, she intends to show democrats can do this led by a woman. >> okay, joy reid. again, the town hall with nancy pelosi is going to air 10:00 eastern, 2 1/2 hours from now. really good stuff there, joy. can't wait to watch it. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> and don't miss joy reid's wonderful show "a.m. joy" tomorrow morning. coming up next, i'm going to head to the big board. the shutdown and the senate. will the 2020 map lead to some surprise republican cracks in the current standoff? this is "hardball," where the action is. action is. what?! -welcome. -[ gasps ] a bigger room?! -how many of you use car insurance? -oh. -well, what if i showed you this? -[ laughing ] ho-ho-ho! -wow. -it's a computer. -we compare rates to help you get the price and coverage that's right for you.

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all right. welcome back to "hardball." so we've been talking about it. where is there going to be somebody, some group, some party that budges when it comes to the shutdown right now? there's the house democrats, senate republicans, trump white house. we talked to them in the top of the show about the potential on the senate side and why? because you got some republican senators there who made the error up for reelection next year in 2020, who maybe come from states that are swing state, vulnerable senators. are they going to be the ones who feel the political heat and change the equation? we thought we would take a look. where might, might some of those senators be? first of all, here we go. new senate taking the oath of office yesterday.

47 democrats, 53 republicans. you got those two independents who caucus with the democrats. that's the current balance of power. now let's take a look here. where are the republicans who are going to be up for reelection next year in 2020? every state painted in red you've got a republican whose up for reelection next year. a lot of these are deep red states. they're not going to be competitive races. probably not going to be a lot of political pressure on republicans in those states. so where? where possibly in this mix of states could you see republicans who end up vulnerable in 2020? this gets a little more interesting. take a look at this. some of these are probably stretches. kansas, pat robertson announcing today he is not going to be running for reelection. that's a very big stretch. you saw democrats have a good midterm there. we put mitch mcconnell on here. i know it's kentucky. the most recent polling we've seen on mcconnell in kentucky has his approval rating there in the 30s. those are bad numbers. but really, where is the action here? colorado. state that donald trump lost.

cory gardner, he has already come out and said hey, republicans just pass a clean cr and reopen the government. maine. hillary clinton won this in 2016. trump didn't win this state. susan collins running for reelection in 2020. she's made some noise and suggests she is feeling at least some political heat that is maybe different from her colleagues. keep an eye there. arizona. remember, martha mcsally just lost the senate race and then got appointed to the other seat. now she's got to run in 2020. this is a state trump won but only won narrowly in 2016. so keep a close eye there. i think joni ernst in iowa. it's a trump state but it's one democrats have some thoughts of maybe trying to claw back or at least get close to in 2020. georgia. obviously georgia as state democrats look there they think of the future they can compete there. maybe in 2020. could that be trouble for david perdue next year? texas, that might be a reach for democrats. beto o'rourke did get to within three points. john cornyn running for reelection there. so again, that's the mix of senators. you have to see these folks, a lot of these folks really start to get publicly nervous about the politics of this.

that could maybe change the thinking of mitch mcconnell, republican leadership. by the way, the flip side. i just want to show you this quickly. we talked so much in 2017 and 2018 about that dynamic of democrats. remember, ten democrats in 2018 in the senate had to run for reelection. ten democratic seats in states that trump had won, trump country. senate democrats. their biggest challenge. how many of those are there going to be in 2020, by the way? just two. doug jones in alabama and gary peters up in michigan. of course michigan a state trump barely won. only two. so that landscape for democrats looks very different in 2020 than it did in 2018. so, again, we'll have a lot more time between now and election day 2020 to talk about senate races. but i wanted to give you a sense of how that might factor in to the current shutdown conversation. up next, more from president trump's wide-ranging fact-bending news conference in the rose garden. you're watching "hardball." ballooned your car. call meeeee!

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welcome back to "hardball." there appears to be no end in sight for the government shutdown after the president's lengthy press conference in the rose garden today. digging in his heels, president trump confirmed to reporters that he told senate minority leader chuck schumer that the shutdown could continue for months or even years. the president was also asked about his remarks from last month when he told democratic leaders that he would be proud to take responsibility for the shutdown. let's watch. >> are you still proud to own this shutdown? >> well, you know, i appreciate the way you say that, but once -- i'm very proud of doing what i'm doing. i don't call it a shutdown. i call it doing what you have to do for the benefit and for the safety of our country. we're going to be working very hard over the weekend, and we'll see if we can do something. so you can call it whatever you want. you can call it the schumer or the pelosi or the trump shutdown. it doesn't make any difference to me. just words. >> and for more i'm joined by the round table. christina greer is an associate professor of political science

at fordham university. carrie sheffield is a conservative commentator and founder of bold tv. and tim o'brien is executive editor at bloomberg opinion. thanks to all of you for being with us. tim, let me just start with you, because you have a perspective on trump that not everybody has. i'm just curious what you make of the public performance we saw today from him. because i'm trying to read it and there's two possibilities that jump out at me. one is this a guy who feels cornered and is looking for a way out of this? or is this somebody who is enjoying the moment he's found himself in? >> it may be both, because i think he loves being in the spotlight so much that it doesn't matter whether he's cornered or not. if he can get people to pay attention, he loves being in that space. however, he is definitively cornered. and i think one of the things this incident is showing is that the president actually isn't a very good dealmaker. the people who supported him said he was going to go to washington, he was a businessman who would apply business skills and a long history of deal-making to getting things done in washington, draining the

swamp, et cetera, et cetera. anybody who knew the particulars and facts of his business history knew that he was repeatedly taken to the cleaner on a lot of significant deals. and the reason was because he didn't bone up on the facts, he lacked the patience to see things through to their end, and he usually made it about an appearance of winning rather than authentically getting something he wanted. and i don't think he is familiar with the history of government shutdowns in washington. i don't think he's interested in giving up ground in order to get a result that might benefit him. so he's left now without any leverage. and he is aware of it. and i think that's why you're getting all this word salad from him. >> i'm kind of wondering, and i don't know specifically. i keep trying to imagine what's the specific combination that's going to let everybody come to the table and sign off on something. but i do have this sense what tim was just saying. the appearance of winning, the appearance of victory. >> right. >> that that's going to have to be an element of this from trump's standpoint.

trying to create it somehow. >> right. and he is trying to shift the narrative. now we can call it the schumer and pelosi. the problem is nancy pelosi outmaneuvered him in the meeting they had a few weeks ago. she walked him into that trap. he said yeah, i'll own it. now he realizes this is real. we have hundreds of thousands of americans who are not getting paid. right? so his party is going to suffer pretty soon. obviously the winds of change will work against him. and so he is cornered. he's used to just packing up his marbles, filing for bankruptcy and leaving you holding the bag. he can't do that right now. so he's trying to figure out how he can change the frame. but this isn't "the apprentice." we don't have editors who can just all of a sudden change it and make it seem like you're winning when you're not. this is someone who actually as a life-long new yorker is not a deal maker. he in many ways, anyone who's done business with him in new york, knows that he has been a crook. and he's actually -- he does not really know how to do business. daddy was giving him lots of money. daddy was constantly covering for him. daddy was constantly bailing him out, and he was able to build up a reputation that said one thing but the reality was something totally different. now we're in washington, d.c. nancy pelosi, chuck schumer,

many of the democrats, they understand the institution of congress, but we're seeing now they understand the institution of the presidency much better than the president. >> so carrie, if he doesn't get 100% of what he's asking for, $5.6 billion, his definition of the wall has changed, but let's just say $5.6 billion on the wall. if he does not and is not able to get 100% of that, what could he get that that talk radio base that revolted a few weeks ago would go along with him and say it's a victory? >> sure. well, he has said there might be some talk about if he could declare some sort of national emergency because, let's be honest, we do have a national emergency on our southern border. and anyone who would say otherwise, i would really challenge them and say look at life expectancy in this country. it's declined for the second time. it's related to the drug crisis. >> are you saying that's what the base needs to hear from him? that short of getting 100% he's got to go in that direction for them to feel that he is getting a win here? >> he's got to control the border. that's how he won. that's how he mopped the floor with the establishment.

that's how he mopped the floor when he won the presidency. and also the republican nomination. it was immigration. so i think woe be unto any democrat who doesn't understand the reason trump is in the white house is because of immigration. and we do have a border crisis. we do. life expectancy declined in this country for the second year in a row. we haven't seen that since world war i. one of the key reasons was drugs. and drugs -- >> the question is -- >> can i finish? drugs coming over our southern border, fentanyl, is driving a lot of this decline in the life expectancy. this is a crisis. and so i think -- >> what's the question about the win? >> i'm just trying to figure out -- right. what does it take? we saw a couple of weeks ago, his vice president went in there with an offer. it looked like there was going to be a deal here, and talk radio revolted and there was no deal. i'm saying if he doesn't get 100%, what can he bring back? that's not going to produce that same result. >> sure. i think what he's trying to find is an alternative. if congress won't come to the table. i think the reason why he didn't get what happened with the senate, it was mitch mcconnell's fault. mitch mcconnell should have

shown leadership. the house under house speaker paul ryan passed the bill with the funding. so mitch mcconnell could have taken the quote/unquote nuclear option. >> mitch mcconnell tried to deliver a deal to trump months ago and trump pulled the plug on it at the last minute. this is again someone who can't even do a deal with members of his own party. this is not mitch mcconnell's fault. this solely resides with president trump. >> no, no, no. >> if there's a crisis on the southern border -- >> the house passed a funding bill that includes funding for the -- >> which there isn't. apprehensions at the southern boarder are at year, decade lows. there is not a crisis. that's a manufactured idea. >> well, aei, which is a very respectable -- >> okay. >> has talked about the -- >> but let's reset. again, i'm just trying to figure out, the government's been shut down for two weeks here, and we know what the position is clearly from democrats in the house. they have put their offer on the table. they've passed it. we are waiting. we just put this out there. we want to see what happens in the senate. because nothing is happening there now, and there is a question whether there is going to be some movement from the cory gardners and some of these

other vulnerable senators. and then there is the question of what will the president ultimately accept here. we listened for an hour and a half today and rhetorically i heard a lot. i heard a lot of posturing, but i'm unclear. a wall? a fence? money for this? i'm unclear exactly where that line is where he can say i still -- i would call this a victory and take it. >> right. we know the president has to use the wall as a race-baiting tactic to make sure that his base stays with him, because he is creating this dangerous bogeyman that's there. we also know that he just wants to win. so as tim said, we don't know if he really cares about this wall, if he really cares about the fight. he just likes the posturing. and so when he goes back and talks to nancy pelosi and chuck schumer and he is trying to negotiate and make these deals that he is so famous at doing, you know, they are very clear. nancy pelosi has said several times, how many ways can i say no? we are not giving you $5 billion. we can talk about sort of securing certain places along the southern border, but we actually don't have this crisis

of the caravan that the president is creating because that's for his talk radio base. that is very clear. so the problem is the president doesn't deal in facts or truth. and so when we're trying to move forward with policy, we have to sort of undo some of his mind-set. now, the interesting -- hold on, let me finish. >> sure. >> so the interesting thing though is we also know this president doesn't respect his own party. so he may actually decide to just do a deal with nancy and chuck based on however they configure their negotiation and leave mitch mcconnell looking in the wind because he doesn't speak to anyone unless it's via twitter. >> i'll ask it a different way. i was asking specifically if you have a sense what he could bring back to the base and the base would still say it's a victory. how scared of that, how intimidated by the base is he? i guess that's the question i would ask then. does he have to go back to them or could he cut some other kind of a deal here? >> that's what i was saying. when he floats the possibility of declaring a national emergency, which would give him access to potential other funds. but i do want to push back on

the question of this being a racist trope. this president has seen historic low unemployment among african-americans. >> stop, stop, stop. >> also historic wins -- >> it didn't begin with president trump -- >> okay, i'm trying to keep this on the wall. tim, let me go back to you. let me ask you this question this way. mitch mcconnell and donald trump, the dynamics that trump -- you were hinting at this before. the dynamics that trump faced in the business celebrity world that he comes from versus the dynamics of dealing with somebody like mitch mcconnell. how much overlap is there? a lot or a little? >> he has run a business that promoted him as a marketing tool. he never really built relationships with other people. he's never built strong teams around him. he's never known how to push something through by building relationships with other people. i think that informs his entire relationship with the gop, regardless of his relationship with democrats. and what he is focused on here right now isn't the policy. he doesn't have a clear sense of

what kind of policy he wants on the southern border, or what kind of policy he wants on immigration. he is focused on the wall because he is concerned about his reputation, which is an entirely different can of worms. and what he is digging in around is he doesn't want to have to say i didn't get my wall. he doesn't care about whether or not he can have an outcome that said we are dealing with a rational approach how to handle migration on the southern border and here's how we're doing that. he's saying i'm digging in for a wall because i said i was going to do it. actually people in his own party and the opposition don't think it makes sense. and until he lets go of it, he is going get beaten up on this issue. >> if you can't go two blocks in new york without seeing a trump -- the grand hyatt was brokered by him at age 28 -- >> no, it was brokered by the pritzkers. >> he was the runner for the pritzkers. he was the one who started -- why is he -- his name is everywhere. >> his name is everywhere. >> this is a useful thing to remember because his name is everywhere but he's not responsible for building a lot of the projects his name's on. and that's an issue.

>> because of his executive -- >> well, okay. again, the government is still shut down. the terms of the standoff are not entirely -- the terms of it are not entirely understood. i think that is what makes this to me different than past shutdowns we have seen. it is unclear to me exactly what the bottom line is for every party that is involved here. i think that's what makes this different. at the beginning of this i said it looks like the stakes relatively speaking in the scheme of the federal budget are not that high, and yet it's going on a lot longer than we expected. it's an unusual one. christina greer, carrie sheffield, tim o'brien, thank you for being with us. "hardball" back in just a minute. mouth, they feel like they have to drink a lot of water. medications seem to be the number one cause for dry mouth. dry mouth can cause increased cavities, bad breath, oral irritation. i like to recommend biotene. biotene has a full array of products that replenishes the moisture in your mouth. biotene definitely works. it makes patients so much happier.

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welcome back, newly sworn in congresswoman rashida tlaib made headlines today, after using an expletive and calling for the president's impeachment. here's what she said. >> people love you, and you win. and when your son looks at you and says, mama, look, you won, bullies don't win, and i say, baby, they don't, because we're going to go in there and we're going to impeach the [ bleep ]. >> today the president responded to the new congresswoman's remarks and the prospect of impeachment. >> well, you can't impeach somebody that's doing a great job. that's the way i view it. i've probably done more in the first two years than any

president and any administration in the history of our country. you don't impeach people when there's no collusion. because there was no collusion. using language like that in front of her son and whoever else was there, i felt that was a great dishonor to her and her family. it was highly disrespectful to the united states of america, yes. "hardball" is back in a minute.

let me finish tonight with democrats and the "i" word. one new democratic member of congress is all on board with impeachment. we just played it a minute ago, rashida talib making it clear with her comment last night. and another long serving member, brad sherman, introducing fresh articles of impeachment. he says it's time to get the ball rolling now. the rank and file of the democratic party is all there too. 78% of them according to the exit poll of midterms, 78% say congress should impeach president trump. that's where the grassroots energy of the democratic party

is. democratic voters want to hear it and they want to see it. democratic leaders aren't there, not now anyway. for one thing, that same exit poll finds impeachment isn't nearly as popular outside the democratic base, nearly 34% of independents say they want it, 57% are against it. there is also fear of a backlash from americans who voted for trump. this is what jerry nadler, the new democratic chairman of the judiciary committee who would oversee any impeachment hearings, here's what he had to say recently. he said you have to be reluctant to do an impeachment and you don't want the country to say to the other half for the next 30 years, we won the election, you stole it from us. that may become the dilemma for nancy pelosi and top democrats in the months ahead. their base wants this, soon there will be a whole bunch of democrats out there running for president. they will be talking to that base. how many candidates will start calling for impeachment. then, if, say, sometime in the middle of 2019 robert mueller

were to then give more of them ammunition, what will democrats with the power in the congress do then? will they gave that base the impeachment push it wants? or will they say to that base we want him out to, and the way to do it is through the election next year? it's a dilemma ha hasn't come to head yet, but in 2019 it may very well. that is hardball for now, chris matthews is back monday. "all in" starts right now. tonight on "all in". >> when your son looks at you and says, mama, look, you won, bullies don't win. >> impeachment talk took center stage on day two of democratic control. >> i said, baby, they don't because we're going to go in there and we're going to impeach the [ bleep ]. >> tonight the leadership responds and why even the president has impeachment on his mind. >> i said, why don't you use this for impeachment? and nancy said we're not looking to impeach you. >> then. >> if we have to stay out for a very long period of time, we're going to do that. >> as the president promises a