it's so nice to be back. my thanks to joyce vance, charlie sykes, the rev, phillip bump. that does it for our hour. i'm nicole wallace. i'll be back here monday for "deadline white house" at 4:00 p.m. good morning. welcome to "up." i'm joshua johnson, host of the public radio program 1a sitting in for david gurra. day 16 with more negotiations coming today. >> the president is not coming off his $5.7 billion figure. >> president trump is refusing to give in as the democrats demand the details of his border wall budget. >> you want the headline to be

the president no longer wants a wall, he wants a fence. >> the president is going to secure the border with a barrier. >> plus, elizabeth warren is campaigning for president in iowa and she's talking about the infamous dna test. >> i am not a person of color. i am not a citizen of a tribe. >> it is sunday, january 6th, and if you're interesting trouble keeping up with the border wall plan, don't feel bad, it's not just you. >> we're going to have a door in the wall. >> precast plank. >> harded concrete. >> steel slats. >> up with us this hour, l joy williams. shermichael williams and contributing host of considerate from voks meax media. pete dominic, host of standup on sirius xm insight. we begin with day 16 of the shutdown and the standoff over

president trump's proposed border wall. over the next hour he will meet with senior staffers at camp david. back in washington vice president mike pence will meet with congressional staff again at 1:00 p.m. mr. trump tweeted that yesterday's meetings made little prog kbrress but mick mulvaney the president is willing to compromise. >> if you are asked to give up a concrete wall and replace it with a steel fence so that democrats can say, see, he's not building a wall anymore. >> you want the headline to be the president no longer wants a wall, he wants a fence. >> the president is going to secure the border with a barrier. >> last night the president tweeted, the wall is coming. borrowing from the imagery from "game of thrones." that series is a fantasy venture which is how nancy pelosi guards the democrpresident's demand.

she said next week house democrats will begin passing individual appropriations bills to reopen all government agencies. the senseless uncertainty and chaos of the president must end now. are there any big goals from today's meetings? any deliverables we can look forward to? >> joshua, i still think we're in the talking point phase of this. the way this was orchestrated yesterday on the part of the white house, first of all, a very asymmetrical briefing. you had the vice president, the secretary of homeland security, you had the acting chief of staff, jared kushner across the table from who? top hill aides and assistants. this was not sort of a meeting where if anybody's going to come to a decision that's going to stick because after all it is the president himself who's going to make the decision what he's going to accept and what he's not going to accept. diametrically opposed readouts from that meeting depending

where you sit at that table, on the republican side and first they called it productive and they're waiting for a counter offer from democrats. the president saying no progress is made after that. again, sort of a contradiction there. a little bit off message on the side of the administration. the democrats for their side say the republicans wouldn't come off their $5.7 billion, that there's no how, no way they're going to do it. that's a non-starter. you saw they had the meeting across the street, for example, from the white house and eisenhower executive office building enabling the photo op of the vice president at work heading to the meeting. house leaders chose not to attend, instead sending assistance. the republicans, administration playing the long game on public relations where polls show, the vast majority, the overwhelming majority doesn't want that wall is behind democrats. republicans banking on the fact that that could change over time depending how long this drags out, joshua. >> that is michael viquera.

shermichael, let's start with you. there's a question about the role mick mulvaney might be playing. while his recently departed predecessor general john kelly often tried to restrain the president, mulvaney has been egging on the president in his confrontation with congressional democrats over a border wall. you have worked inside an administration. talk about what the pressure feels like from within when something like this happens. i wonder if the political log jam won't break, maybe this is an administrative log jam that breaks. >> this is the issue with donald trump and whether you like john kelly or not, at least we do know from a significant amount of reporting that he did attempt to sort of block the president in on some of his worst instincts that he thought would be in the negative interests of the country. with mulvaney, he doesn't have

any interest, at least from my perspective, in doing so. so not only do you have mull vab any y -- mulvaney, you have forces like rush limbaugh, fox news, significant polling indicates that 87% of republican voters stand with the president. 64% strongly stand with him. when you look at all those variables, there is no reason whatsoever for donald trump not to continue to do this. now we can say a vast majority of the country doesn't support it, but when has donald trump ever listened to a vast majority of the country since he's been president. >> you nailed it. he listens to radio talkers. you've compared mick mulvaney to john kelly, i would say the similarity is both of them, any of his cabinet secretaries are going to tell the president, listen, i know you want to do this. the reason you can't do this is because it's illegal. i don't know what to tell you, mr. president, it's an illegal thing to do. the radio guys, they don't have that consequence. all they have to do is get

ratings. much of what they're asking the president to do is illegal or unfeasible. >> both you and mike mentioned poll numbers about who does and does not want this shutdown. there's another poll from government business council at gove govexec.com. l. joy williams, the conversation has had to do with pressure from the last few weeks. where does the pressure come from? it's interesting that it's shifted to pressure as opposed to consensus, compromise, collaboration. >> those are all things that you would think of if you were dealing with a normal presidential administration, someone who wanted to govern, someone who was looking out for what's best for the country. that's not where we are. we're dealing with someone who has temper tantrums and because somebody else is getting more press than him will come out and do his own, you know, briefing at some point, right?

so he's digging his heels in and listening to the base that is who he governs for. and, you know, look, there's no -- besides the shutdown that we're dealing with now, even if a wall is included in something, he's not going to have to deal with the repercussions of that. it's not like it's going to be completely built by the time his presidency ends, right? there's still also the legal challenges that will have to be talked about and dragged on in the courts in terms of eminent domain and all of that stuff. what they're saying is a wall is going to -- what that represents to the base also, the wall is protecting us from these dangers, from these people of color. they're going to protect your jobs. the wall is symbolism to that base of all the things that is wrong in -- that they believe is wrong in the country. and so that is why also they are digging their heels in. >> since you mentioned the symbolism before i come to you, midwin, we talked about the 800 workers furloughed, prolonged

shutdown is going to affect you and me outside of the government. if you rely on your tax return, the irs, they'll take your money. >> they'll want it. >> but they're not giving refunds right now. >> or housing loan. >> housing loans, food stamps. millions of americans rely on food stamps could go hungry if the shutdown drags on into next month. sba loans, they're on hold until the administration reopens. i wonder if there's pressure not only on the president's side to make the decision between his base and a pragmatic solution but also on the democratic side because they're not budging either. nancy pelosi's response to the wall has been, and i'm paraphrasing, no. end of paragraph. >> right. right. they're not budging because of all of the things that you enumerated at the beginning of the segment which is the majority of the country is behind democrats. the majority of the country does not want this wall. the majority of the country understands that this wall is

symbolism to protect us against a danger that really doesn't exist, right? illegal immigration is down. the number of people coming through that border is not higher than the number of people who fly in here and overstay their visas, in other words, other illegal immigrants as well. i think the majority of the country understands that, but what i think the democrats understand is that they have nothing to lose by giving in right now. they understand that the country is behind them. >> i'm sorry, you mean they have nothing to lose by not giving in? >> that's right. they understand that. one of the things that i think is the most appalling about this is that chuck schumer said after he met with donald trump, that donald trump proposed that this shutdown could go on for weeks if not years and donald trump acknowledged that. he said, yes, i did, in fact, say that, which tells me that this is someone who does not care about the american people. he does not care about the

800,000 people who work for the government as well as the consequences and the ramification, and there's been reporting that he and his administration didn't even realize how a shutdown would impact the entire country. >> so how does this resolve? who goins find a solution? until someone in washington finds a solution, you still have 800,000 people who aren't working, who are furloughed. you have people going through the airports being extra nice to tsa agents. >> i can't believe you asked me the question. >> who begins to fix this? >> that question, joshua, is the most important question and everybody is struggling to answer but nobody can answer exactly how this resolves, but i'll take a guess at it. god forbid something terrible happens because there are security issues. they're calling it the blue flu. tsa agents calling out sick not because they're upset or mad, because they need money. they have to go get other jobs while they're not getting paid at tsa.

if something terrible happens. if you keep seeing these #shutdown stories, the pressure is going to mount. >> they're going to have to happen. see, i should have asked them. all y'all got -- hold on for a second. there are no easy answers to this, but this is definitely an issue that democrats are going to have to think their way through going forward. they're also trying to think through what the 2020 presidential field looks like. up next, elizabeth warren makes her first trip to iowa. yes, she is making answers to that dna test. what are her answers for taking on trump? >> interested in stability or facts? >> did you have someone specific in mind? they really appreciate the military family and it really shows. with all that usaa offers why go with anybody else?

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i am not a person of color. i am not a citizen of a tribe. tribal citizenship is very different from ancestry, and the republicans honed in on this part of my history and thought they could make a lot of hay out of it. a lot of racial slurs and a lot of ugly stuff that went on. >> that's senator elizabeth warren responding to a question about her dna test at an event yesterday during one of her stops in iowa.

she was also asked about civility in politics, big money, immigration and more. at least two dozen democrats may be considering running next year. look at all of that. and all of them rekindled the debate over who voters consider a viral cable candidate. "the new york times" said "there's a real tension." the panel is back with us. this question whether a woman can beat president trump. there's been a lot reported about the president's views towards powerful women, how he treats powerful women, how he treated hillary clinton to the debates to the point of making her do a little shimmy out of shock, but how does this question play today, midwin? is this question par for the course? does it take on new relevance? how do you see it? >> i looked at that headline and i saw it come up on my twitter feed. i said, your misogyny is showing.

it cannot be in 2019, i have to remember that, 2019 that we are still talking about whether a woman can beat anyone. at this point we need to look at the candidates and look at their platforms, look at their policies. i don't think it is good and i've seen a lot of headlines like this from a variety of different media fronts that, you know, talking about whether elizabeth warren is likeable and the kind of things that they are pointing out that they would never point out with a man. i think we need to move beyond this as a country. in fact, we are here today, we have donald trump as a president because of racism and misogyny and i think it's something that we need to address head on. every single time we see one of those headlines, we have to point it out. >> let me get to a piece of that "new york times" article, shermichael. here's one quick quote. too many americans may not want to take another chance on a female candidate, ms. cusack said, after hillary clinton was met with mistrust and even hostility in swing states. i hear what you're saying.

>> outrage. >> but, shermichael, if that's not the country we are today, don't we have to deal with that? >> i agree with everything. the reality is a lot of people aren't comfortable with a woman leading the country. >> because they read articles like that? >> i'm not saying that's okay. i'm not saying it's acceptable. i'm not saying it should be a norm but it is a hurdle that we all have to overcome, if you will. i think specifically as it relates to elizabeth warren, to be quite frank with you, i don't think she's ready for primetime. from a political strategy position, i think about her doing the dna test. there is no way in the world i would ever have advised a soon to be presidential candidate to do that. i think about how she announced her candidacy and she said to her husband, thanks for being here. where in the heck else would he be? i assume he lives there, too. i think of all of these miscalculations. she's running against someone like donald trump. whether you like trump or not, he is a very effective messenger, very, very effective. democrats are going to need

someone who can take him head on and i don't think elizabeth warren is that person. >> two things. so the first in terms of how we're going to report collectively on this race going forward, i do think that media outlets and others have the responsibility to not fall down the misogyny rabbit hole. i think there is a way to talk about the, quote, likability of candidates that is inclusive of everyone and not sexist. we know the can i have a beer with this person? why can't that same question be applied to the women that are going to be running for president in that -- >> but those are always -- who wants to have a president someone they drink a beer with? people i have beers with i don't want -- >> but from a political behavior standpoint, that is what voters are thinking about. how they identify. >> likability saying let's make a second point. the likability thing comes up with john kerry, mitt romney.

>> exactly. going to the diner. can i have a conversation? do they talk down to me? do they talk in my language? all of those things you can strip the misogyny out of it, strip the sexism out of it and have a real conversation about whether or not a voter can identify with candidates that are running for office. >> i know we have to pause for a second. could we take a graphic with all the two dozen thousand candidates? can we look at that one more time. pete, i know we have to pause. i wonder if the issue in part is that we already know what the democrats are going for in 2020. we know health care is important for the american people. we know the democrats want donald trump out as quickly as possible. maybe we're nibbling around the edges. is there somebody likeable? is it a woman, is it a man? maybe the democratic message is clear and we're doing central casting here. >> yeah, we always are. we have this conversation even far too early to have this conversation. the answer can a woman win?

yes, a woman can beat donald trump. should a woman beat donald trump? i think so, that would be great. but i think it's going to come down to not somebody who's more superficial things, but policy. where do they stand on policy like, you know, saving democracy, voter suppression, the environment, health care, education and obviously the economy. i think the thing we're not talking about now because of where the economy is at -- >> issue within the democratic party. i think you have the more centrist leaning element to the party like pelosi. you have the really progressive leaning elements of the party trying to battle which direction should the democratic party go at for 2020. we'll pause there. up next, this is the 21st government shutdown in history. the longest one lasted 21 days. 21 was a winning hand in black jack, but does everyone have losing hands in a budget battle? history may have some answers. that's up.

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this is "up." i'm joshua johnson sitting in for david guerra. the shutdown seems to have no end in sight. vice president pence will lead more meetings in watching tons. still, there are shutdowns and there are shutdowns. which one is this? let's get some perspective. there have been 21 federal shutdowns since 1976. many of them were just a day or two. the longest one was 21 days during the clinton administration. sticking points have included balanced budget, abortion funding and the affordable care act. >> you don't get to extract a ransom to do your job. , for doing what you're supposed to be doing anyway. i respect the fact that the other party's not supposed to agree with me 100% of the time just like i don't agree with them, but they do also expect that we don't bring the entire

government to a halt. >> now there have been many winners and losers from past presidents to their congressional counterparts. ronald regan had eight shutdowns, the most of any presidency, though none of them lasted longer than three days. george w. bush had none. so what might we learn from the past? let's open it up to the panel. are there any insights in the way we resolved past shutdowns? that might lead us to a source for this? >> i think it's two different because of who the president is. the american people don't like shutdowns. the morality is, the republican parties say they are blaming for this. you have 2020 coming up. i believe 18 republican senators are going to be up for re-election. some of those senators are running in states that donald trump did not win or he won by a very slim margin. those city senators are going to

have to go back to those states and explain many supported donald trump, voted for donald trump, still staunch reporters why a government is shut down and they can't afford to buy milk or mutt gas in their cars. to pay taxes, to pay debt, to pay credit card debt. how do you explain that to those folks? the reality is you can't. some are going to start defecting and saying, mr. president, this cannot continue. we have to find a compromise. >> particularly if they're in states that have a large base of government employees or contract workers with the government, which is also an unforeseen, untalked about population of people that we don't talk about. we talk about the actual workers, government workers, but then there are those who have contracts with the government who are not able to pay their workers and they may not work directly for the government but that's where their money comes from. and so i think the longer it goes though, there is going to

shift -- i think there's going to be the shift to just the republican party to that number that we see that comes up all the time where it's the politicians, all of you. and all of you i have no trust in the government, i have no trust in congress because you guys aren't doing your job. >> can i pick up on that point -- >> not doing your job and still collecting a check. i think that's a very, very important thing to point out. >> that's something a lot of people mentioned. we ain't getting paid, why y'all getting paid? shouldn't nobody be getting paid. >> and about to get a $10,000 increase. >> the trump appointees are about to get a $10,000 increase. maybe they'll turn it down. i'm sure they will. >> yeah, right. >> we should -- >> joe confidence? >> you know, my confident face looks more like this jamming a pastry in my mouth. i'm not there yet. i'm not there yet. listen, the government -- we have to reel back. your question was is this like any other previous shutdown? the only thing i can remember is when newt gingrich had a temper

tantrum. let's remember what this is about. this is about a wall. this is about a wall that nobody really wants except for trump's base and it is not needed at all. >> and it's not going to work. >> of course it's not going to work. >> keep in mind, in 2006 you had the strong fence act. customs and border patrol agents said 600 mile of fencing was breached 9,000 times. it cost the american taxpayers millions of dollars to repair those breaches and maintain the fencing. >> also border patrol agent have said -- >> data. >> data. >> facts. >> he doesn't have data, he has movie posters. >> this administration is allergic to facts. >> the facts also show that border patrol agents have said if we want to spend money on things that would help with border security, they could use more technology to track people coming across the border. >> democrats gave that money to

them. >> billions and billions in 2013 in the comprehensive immigration reform. $60 billion. recently they offered them $23 billion for border security. this wall is preposterous. >> let's get back to mitch mcconnell. since you're talking about the lawmakers, we should talk about mitch mcconnell and nancy pelosi. here are two clips of the two of them recently talking about this shutdown and the process of maybe possibly moving forward. watch. >> as i've said consistently for the last two weeks, the senate will not waste its time considering a democratic bill which cannot pass this chamber in which the president will not sign. >> i think that what mitch mcconnell is doing, and i say this as respectfully as possible, is saying, we're not needed. congress might as well stay home. all we need is one person to show up, donald trump. >> i wonder, joy, if mitch mcconnell's kind of absence from

these last few proceedings is an issue or whether it kind of makes sense? i mean, he knows he's going to have to get a bill to the president that the president is willing to sign. the president has been steadfast in saying the money has got to be there for the wall or i ain't signing nothing. so i'm not sure what else there is for him to do. >> i doesn't know. having a leader actually show up and be present during negotiations and actually, i don't know, lead is important, you know? and so even as, you know, the leader in the senate to say, you know, to the president, also be a pressure point to the president like your responsibility isn't to just carry the water of the president, it's mainly to carry the water of the people. and so to go to the president and say, the american people do not want it. it is not in the best interests. they do a bill before that we could do this, sign that. this is what i can get passed. >> is there a point at which -- there have been other shutdowns that were broken by 2/3 majority

in congress. are we reaching that point? >> i don't know. >> a few news stories away from t. a few #shutdown stories away from it. this is a real serious situation. >> if i may, to kind of go back to what he said. we have to remember what this whole shutdown is about and it's the wall. it's important to also remember that this wall is a failed campaign promise that donald trump made. so it's symbolism, but it's also one of those things that he likes to tick off of all of the accomplishments that he says he's been making as president. the last one or one of the main ones is this wall, but it's a failed campaign promise because he said mexico would pay for the wall. and now he wants us to pay for the wall. so he's basically failed at that campaign promise, and i think that that's important to point out. and now everyone's been duped. everyone's been suckered and now -- >> not everyone. >> the people who say, you know what, now we want a wall. who cares who pays for it.

you go pay for it. >> before we go to break, take that away from him. he don't need no more sugar. >> over here. >> we'll be right back. >> just ahead, russia accuses a former marine of spying. how this case is getting stranger by the day and why moscow could be retaliating over the russian asset in u.s. custody. stay close. ♪ music >> tech: ...every minute counts. and you don't have time for a cracked windshield. that's why at safelite, we'll show you exactly when we'll be there. with a replacement you can trust. all done sir. >> grandpa: looks great! >> tech: thanks for choosing safelite. >> grandpa: thank you! >> child: bye! >> tech: bye! saving you time... so you can keep saving the world. >> kids: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪

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the complex relationship between russia and the west is playing out in the case of an american accused of spying on moscow and the story keeps getting more interesting. "the new york times" reports that the accused spy, paul whelen, also holds british, irish and canadian passports. yesterday russia's deputy foreign minister told local media that it is too early to discuss a prisoner swap with the alleged russian agent in u.s. custody. let's break this down with nbc's sarah harmon from london. good morning. tell us what russia has said about the charges against whelen. why is he in trouble? >> this is tricky. there has been conflicting information about whether or not paul whelan has been charged. he's been arrested. he's in a moscow prison on suspicion of spying.

they said whelan hadn't been charged and that he would be soon and that is contradicting previous reporting from russian television saying that he had been charged with espionage. there were also reports in russian state media that whelan had received a u.s. bead desupplies his room. that was state media. at this point it seems safe to say he has been arrested on suspicion of spying and not charged. as you may know, joshua, today is russian orthodox christmas. information has been trickling out of moscow rather slowly given the huge holiday. yesterday whelan's brother spoke to "the guardian" newspaper. he said he was being used as a pawn and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. paul whelan wasn't just an american travel aing abroad.

he had four passports. it complicates the issue of consular responsibility when it comes to which country needs to sbreerd intercede on his behalf. they have all applied for consular access. so far the u.s. is taking the lead because whelan entered on his u.s. passport. john huntsman has visited him in prison. the other issue raised is the possibility that this is part of a larger scheme, perhaps a prisoner swap to exchange him for a russian who's being detantd in the u.s. you mentioned maria batina who pleaded guilty to conspiracy in the u.s., but there's also reports that a russian man was arrested in the marianna islands, which is a u.s. territory. so, joshua, as you can see, this story just gets weirder and weirder. >> thank you, sarah. that's nbc's sarah harmon in london. let's go back to the panel.

i'm not sure exactly what to make of this, but this feels like one of those small things that could become a bigger thing because it's kind of emblematic of the tense relationship between the u.s. and russia. what are we keeping an eye out for here? what are we looking for? >> i think one of the things that we can look for is is this an attempt to do a prisoner swap, which is what the reporter eluded to. when i first heard about this story initially i thought this is absurd, here we go again with russia trying to basically trying to circumvent things and try to set somebody up or what have you. then the news came out that he had four passports. i was like, you know what, i've watched a lot of james bond movies. that's a whole lot of passports. how do you get four passports. okay? >> if you don't know how to get four passports, you ain't supposed to know. you better off not knowing. >> that's what i'm saying. i'm like, okay, different,

different. >> ask my friends in national security. he served in the marines for a long time. he was dishonorably discharged. i'm not sure if the cia frowns upon that. he's good at stealing from his own government so maybe he should be a spy. i think that this is a really important story. i think that russia, of course, and the united states have a history of these types of things. the guy that was -- by the way, arrested in -- the other guy that sarah mentioned in the islands, he was indicted a few years ago. it wasn't like -- that they just made that -- we made up charges against this guy. he was indicted and we found him in a place where we could get him. >> we probably, shermichael, marina butina, according to the reporting and the accusations against her was a fairly savvy operator. she was working inside american political circles for quite some time. >> she was doing quite well. >> she was doing quite well. so i'm not sure that mr. whelan

and ms. butina are equivalent characters. >> i'm not certain. that's what makes this intriguing to me. what does the administration say. >> that's why i think it's very interesting. if we do decide to do a prisoner swap, i'm wondering why? what pressure has been placed or forced upon the president to ultimately direct the state department and say, we need to release this lady. >> and i'm interested in what the congress will have, you know, in terms of going forward, what hearings they may have on -- as hearings go on, what hearings they may have on these issues and what other things they might bring out in some of the subcommittees, right, on what is happening as well. i think this is a story that we're just getting headlines now. but i think the detail of it, you know, will come out months later and it will be a much larger story. >> i think one difference is when america charges someone for

spying, our government, our department of justice makes a case. russia does not have that type of reputation. they don't need to make a case. they snatch them. >> this turns into more of a diplomatic dispute than a -- >> but also i think -- >> it's important to note who maria butina is, what she pled guilty to and what she did with the trump administration and the republicans who were involved in the nra. there was a big piece there, too. let's pause one more time. coming up, a former boeing executive and lobbyist for the cole pharmaceutical and oil industries are coming up. why is it so hard to drain the swamp? what would a drained swamp even look like? e? we freely share our science to help find cures

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take your razor, yup. up and down, never side to side, shaquem, you got it? come on stay focused. hard work baby, it gonna pay off. under my administration we're fighting against the lobbyists, the special interests and the corrupt washington politics. >> dlan swamp. drain that swamp. drain that swamp. >> president trump said that he would drain the swamp taking power away from washington lobbyists and special interests.

now more of them have seats at his table in his cabinet. former industry lobbyists for corporate executives are leading at least four agencies. take a look at the wall you can see four of them. former exec at boeing is heading the department of defense. former coal lobbyist is the acting administrator of theepa. a pharmaceutical executive is the secretary of health and human services. the acting interior secretary is a former oil industry lobbyist. reporting suggests that could create more problems for the administration now that democrademocrat s run the house. the former epa chief scott pruitt and the former interior secretary resigned as ethics investigations focused on them. back to the panel.

i hear the talk about draining the swamp. i don't know anybody in the country who doesn't want washington to be run more by corporate interests or more by lobbyists. is this just kind the nature of the swamp? these aren't the first insiders to be heading cabinet agencies. hank paulson was the treasury secretary. is this -- >> dick cheney. >> is the way the game is played? >> i think it's really important that we understand that we don't agree on what words mean. i will speak to -- as a strong progressive, i will speak to progressive audiences. when we say what does the swamp mean to you, we don't all share the same definition. i thought government was supposed to do what's in the public's interest, not what's in a special interest, an industry's interest. i'm outraged, of course, by this. how do trump supporters see the swamp? what do they think the swamp is? >> from their perspective, they think this is a good thing.

these individual comes from industry. they have the corporate background. they would preference these individuals over a career bureaucrat, even if the career bureaucrat would have more experience running the agency, knowing the nuances and the variables to make the agency run efficiency. >> regulate. >> to them, that is swampy. they don't trust those people because from their vantage point, those people don't understand them. >> people have some kind of experience. thomas jefferson was the ambassador to france for those of you who have been watching. all the -- that's what i'm saying. there's something -- from the roots of our democracy, the people who have been doing these jobs have needed some experience in the field. the question is where is crosses the line from the national interest into self-interest. >> you have to think about what people think that running the agency is supposed to mean.

right? so running the agency, well if i believe that, yes, we should have people that have experience running businesses and running businesses in that industry, you know, they know what works. they know how to manage people. if you believe that, then having -- >> how to make money. >> the head of boeing or the coal industry in the epa makes sense to you because you believe they have the experience running a successful business. as to your point, those of you who may be leaning ro gr ining want someone who is not able to think about the business interests of those industries but then also make sure that we're regulating and doing things in a way that they don't overstep. >> you may be asking for something that i don't think is on the president's mind, per se. if there's something that has -- can become clear as the cabinet has changed is that the president is surrounding himself more with people who agree with him more solidly. look where rex tillerson is now.

having said that, that makes sense for a president. you want the people around you to reflect your world view. they are not there to set policy. they are there to execute his policy. maybe the faces we put on the wall are the faces who are supposed to be in a trump cabinet. >> there was a time when the appearance of impropriety or the appearance of a conflict of interest meant something. usually, there was a time where it disqualified you. as an attorney, if there's any appearance of impropprietimprop have to recuse myself. it's unfortunate that that standard does not seem to exist with this administration. i understand that these people who head these agencies have a job to do. the problem is, we have to wonder, who are they serving? are they serving these industry interests or are they serving the people? they do have to serve both. i understand that. we are a country --

>> but -- >> we are a country where corporations want to exist, they want to make profit. i get that. we are also a country where these agencies have to serve the public. they have to make sure the public is safe. they have to make sure our water is clean. i understand that. it's competing interests. right? to a certain extent. we want to make sure the person in that job understands that th there are competing interests and they won't sell one party or the other short. >> there's been debate as to what the proper role is of agencies, the epa -- >> i get that. >> in terms of what the law allows testimony to do, there's been debate. >> but when we're drinking brown water, it's real clear what your job is. flint is still drinking brown water. we have to -- >> those are brown people that are generally drinking it. these white -- i'm the white guy on the panel, let me say. >> are you? >> i don't know if anybody noticed that. >> i didn't notice.

>> i should note the only -- the only white guy on the panel has anything from the cornucopia. we are low on time. don't -- >> i'm going to take the plate. >> there's another hour of show. good luck with that. >> the environmental protection agency is supposed to protect the environment, not destroy the environment. >> you can't say anything else. plus, we're out of time. i know. >> are you allowed to put one back? that's forbidden? i'm sorry. >> thank you for spending the hour with us. coming up next hour, ending the shutdown. what progress will the president make at camp david or the democrats make in the house? also, could the 2018 blue wave help elizabeth warren surf to victory in 2020? that's plus the three bs when "up" continues on msnbc. nues on.

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good morning. this is "up." i'm joshua johnson sitting in for david. the partial shutdown continues for the 16th day. the president departs the white house heading to camp david. pence is syi