i do try. i think you try, too. you say things about me that are not necessarily correct. i do try and i always want to tell the truth. when i can, i tell the truth. sometimes it turns out to be where something happens it's different or there's a change but i always like to be truthful. >> that's what president trump said back in november. remember that? but he lies to the american people and he lies all the time and his lies have grown only more blatant, seemingly more compulsive and more damaging. we're going to fact check the president's lies against, which have helped drive the government shutdown into a third week. now donald trump's "art of the deal" is an offer to substitute a wall the democrats don't want with a different type of wall the democrats don't want and i believe 75% of americans and this is after the president rejected a deal last week that both democrats and republicans did want. also this morning, national security adviser john bolton is

in the middle east to try and tamp down concern over the president's hasty announcement on syria, as republican opera at the mike murphy noted on twitter, you can tell that things at the white house have gone totally bat blanc whk had go-to guy for public policy clean-up is bolton. welcome to "morning joe." with us we have national affairs analyst for msnbc news and executive producer of showtime's "the circus, joel heilemann, nick c nick, and "washington post" and political analyst philip rucker is with us as well. joe, what a way to start the week. there's so much going on and so many lies to cover.

>> well, there really are. more importantly, instead of looking at the blizzard of lies that are at us right now, i think this government shutdown provides an opportunity to actually look at the foundation, not only of donald trump's presidential campaign but donald trump's administration, his reason why he's president of the united states right now and, in fact, the state of the republican party, of trump's republican party and conservatism. and it is based on a caravan of lies. and you hear it and we've heard it throughout the weekend, we've heard it over the past week. again, this is a wonderful opportunity. when up hear your friends or your family members say, well, we have to build a border wall because of the 4,000 terrorists that are coming across the southern border. well, that's a lie. and the president's administration's own stats prove that to be a lie. when you hear about, you know,

all the illegal immigrants that are coming across. well, that's a lie. you can look at government statistics to see that, in fact, the number is, as we say on this show and we've been saying during the campaign, there's actually a negative net flow going back into mexico. and, mika, you you could literally go line by line by line, the president talking about applying for citizenship at the southern border. that's not where you apply for citizenship at the southern border. their entire ruse of this wall, which we found out in fact was just a memory device so the president would remember to talk about illegal immigration. it's all a farce. it's all the little fat guy behind the curtain in the w "wizard of oz," except he's no wizard, he's a shameless reality

tv game most turned demagogue and our country is in a shutdown because of it. debunked by the president's own statistics. >> absolutely, they poured out of the administration all the lies, since friday. fundamental, the reason why this is evening happening. >> we are nearly two weeks into a government shutdown, but our nation is also in the midst of a crisis on our southern border. >> but the entire argument for a government shutdown is based on a fallacy. >> the crisis on the southern border, yeah, we had a crisis on the southern border when george w. bush was president and when blnt was president and the number of illegal immigrants kept sky rocketing, but that

number went down through the obama administration and is at its lowest point in a decade. >> "the new york times" has reported based on the government's own data, the number of people, it's not just from you, joe, it's from the government's data, have either been apprehended or turned away at the southern border has actually decreased over the past decade. the pew research center reports numbers have fallen according to the census data. >> john heilemann, we said it throughout the entire campaign, we talked about how donald trump's wall argument -- even mike pence lying through his teeth last week and mike pence knows he was lying through his teeth last week when he talked about the crisis at the sudden border, this caravan, this invasion of illegal immigrants. the number has gone down steadily over the past decade.

>> it has. there was some good sound on this, joe, over the last few days as people go back as we are this morning to some extent and looking at the foundations of not just the kind of edifice of lies of the administration but this big lie at the core his campaign and trump was on the record in 2016 basically saying whenever one of my rallies seems to be flagging and there's not enough energy in the room, i've discovered that the go-to thing, just say "build that wall," it riles everyone up and it sparks all this energy and enthusiasm in the room. it provides that instant dopamine hit. he became wedded to it because

it was so reliable on that front. the facts don't matter to him in those situations and it continues to be the case that he holds it now very close for the same reasons. >> and he even admitted, nick, that when people got distracted or wandered off that he would bring back the wall. he said it was the best applause line. what about his own people admitting to the "new york times" that actually this was just a memory trick for him in 2014, they came up with the idea of a wall because they knew donald trump didn't like to read or perhaps he doesn't know how to read, it's hard to say, but everyone around him says he never reads. so they came up with this trick to say build that wall and that would remind him to talk about illegal immigration. >> joe, it's kind of astounding to imagine that we're here at this point right now to debate a

solution to a crisis that isn't there by building something that we mostly have already, which is a steel fence along the border. and it goes to the point of how the president had won election, by creating a sense of crisis that our trade deals were terrible, that our country was getting screwed around the world with bad deals on nato and trade, that there was a crisis at the border. he had to create that sense of crisis to win and he has to keep the sense of crisis to keep his popularity from going even further down. it's hard to govern if you are constantly trying to create a sense there is a huge problem that can't be fixed. more importantly, this is a man who said he was a great deal maker, that his virtue as president would be i can make a deal. and the first time he has to make a tough deal with somebody who can't be pushed offever, wh

is house democrats in this case, he starts saying a state of emergency has to be called. make a deal. make a deal. >> he can't do it. both the president and the secretary of home land security tried to scare people that thousands of terrorists are pouring over the southern border. >> we have terrorists coming through the southern border because they find that's probably the easiest place to come through. they drive right in and they make a left. >> cvp has stopped 3,000 southern aliens trying to come over the border. they have been identified as concern. they either have travel patterns that are identified as terrorist travel patterns or they have known or suspected ties to terrorism. >> we're going to hand things over to fox news's chris wallace for this fact check that he did with white house press secretary sarah sanders.

>> we know that roughly nearly 4,000 known or suspected terrorists come into our country illegally, and we know that our most vulnerable point of entry -- >> wait. i know the statistic, but i studied up on this. do you know where those 4,000 people are captured? airports. >> not always. certainly a large number. >> the state department said there hasn't been any terrorists -- >> it's by land, by air, by sea. the most vulnerable point of entry we have in this country is our southern border. >> but they're not coming across the southern border, sara. >> they're coming a number of ways. i'm not disagreeing with you that they're coming through airports. >> oh, my goodness. >> so elise jordan, sarah huckabee sanders, the president's spokesperson, caught lying on fox news. i think as troubling as that is and that's very troubling --

>> something we're used to. >> -- you have the person running the department of homeland security in the rose garden lying to the american people and the world about these 3,000, 4,000 people streaming across the southern border. again, she knows it's a lie. she knows that her own statistics prove it out to be a lie. so she's lying through her teeth for political purposes. what happens, elise, when we have a real crisis and the american people are trying to figure out whether she's telling the truth about what we need to do next or whether she's just lying through her teeth because she's a political sycophant? >> i'd argue we're already at a real crisis point because of all the lies, because there is so much absolute nonsense that has no basis in factual reality emanating from official government sources paid by the american people. i really think that we need to

give chris wallace his due respect for studying up on the frequently misused and abused facts that are spouted by these administration officials and giving it back to sarah huckabee sanders in realtime. and look at what she tried to do. she tried to still cast aspersion and say oh, by sea, maybe they are coming by air. it was complete nonsense when confronted with the reality that, yes, most illegal immigrants are detained at airports, people usually overstaying their visas. you know what? this government shutdown is really putting some pressure on tsa if you're actually concerned about border security. >> i don't know if we're desensitized but there's something when the president's press secretary tries to spin, i guess that's one thing. a little chilling to see the head of the department of homeland security lying about how people infiltrate this country or come in literally

lying for this president. the president of the united states also got this wrong. just remember, huge human traffickers, remember drugs, drugs are pouring into this country. they don't go through the ports of entry. >> yes, they do. the president's own drug fighting agency says so. according to the associated press, the dea said in a november report the most common trafficking technique is to hide drugs in passenger vehicles or tractor trailers as they drive into the united states through entry ports. >> we talked about how the government's campaign was based on a lie, a trick, so he would remember to bring it up at campaign rallies, how his campaign was based on the lie, how this shutdown is based on the lie. what is next, though, for a

republican party, who is now the trump republican party, who used to be about smaller budgets, nato, aggression and russia and now there's this caravan of lies and that's become of basis of abraham lincoln's grand old party. how does that party win another election in the foreseeable future? >> joe, the continued lying, the continuing of creating this false narrative, creating this false reality around so many issues, we've seen it throughout the presidency, it hurts the credibility of the administration and of the republican party when they're trying to negotiate through a very real crisis, which this government shutdown is. the government is not open and

fully functioning as it needs to be and there's an inability for the administration to negotiate fairly on a common set of facts with democrats in congress. the other day speaker pelosi had that briefing along with the other congressional leaders and she had to interrupt secretary nielsen as she was presenting information about the border because she did not believe that the information coming from the department of homeland security was accurate or credible. so the lack of credibility in the administration and data points the federal government is sharing on behalf of president trump is creating a real problem for the republican party in solving any kind of solution that can get this government back open. >> the president also said this about people in caravans from central mamerica who present themselves at the southern border. >>they can apply for asylum and they can -- most importantly, they can apply for citizenship.

>> oh, my god. >> no, they can't! >> his statement shows how little -- >> he is ignorant about just about everything that has to do with the federal government. ai according to the u.s. immigration law, you have to wait for a year after applying for political asylum, you have to apply for a green card and you must be a green card holder for five years to apply for citizenship. there is a great video going around this weekend from a news site saying i know more about x than anybody, i know more about y than anybody. he knows less about his signature issue than anybody out there on the stage except for

some people who still support him. >> i don't understand how he can get high-level cabinet members around him to lie for him. that part is chilling to me. trying to justify the last two years president trump said this -- >> we've already built a lot of the walls. we've been working very, very hard. >> only he hasn't. the a.p. says trump's claim is only supported when counting work done under past presidents. >> so he's talking about the ballpark wa obama wall. >> and the fact that fences from prior administrations are not walls. he was renovating barrier. >> i said i was going to build a wall. i never said i'm going to build a concrete -- i said i'm going to build a wall. >> here he is saying exactly that. >> when are the walls going to be made out of?

>> it's going to be made out of concrete. >> it's concrete plank. it's precast. concrete plank. you have to be kidding me. >> president trump wrote on twitter "an all concrete wall was never abandoned." >> john heilemann, we could keep going for three hours showing these lies. >> we could literally keep going. again, we know donald trump's a liar, we know he's been a liar and we know he's lied about immigration, we know he's lied about the wall, we know he's lied about all the statistics, we know he's ignorant about how people become citizens. we know all that. i ask the same question about the historic rout of republicans in november as i asked before the historic rout of republicans in november, and that is why does this party continue marching over the cliff like

lemings behind a guy whose approval rating is about 40% on an issue where 75% of americans oppose the president? 75% of americans don't want the government shutdown for his so-called phony wall. what -- what comes next? at what point does mitch mcconnell say, hey you know what, maybe we don't want to lose ten senate seats in 2020. maybe i don't want to have to retire in 2022 early because i don't want to be minority leader for the rest of my life. when does that happen, john? it's got to happen soon or this republican party is reduced to dust. >> right. well, let's be clear. the question you're asking illustrates the fact that the republican party at the e intellectual moral level has already been reduced to dust.

it's already happened. and it illustrates the point, the reason they continue to follow donald trump is very simple, straight forward, it's fear. the fear is the fact that they believe that president trump continues to dominate their party, that his approval ratings within the republican party are sufficiently high that if they were to deviate from his course, however suicidal it is in any given instance, that they will pay a price within the part. mitch mcconnell is a good example. mitch mcconnell sits every day and worries about all the long-term things you're talking about but in the short term what mitch mcconnell gets primaried in 2020. that's mitch mcconnell's main concern, the concern of a lot of republicans is they can see trump is driving them off the cliff but they look at the short term and they fear not the johnson election in 2020 but

they fear the potential that trump and a trump-backed candidate could primary them and beat them before they even got to november. is that fear? panic? cowa cowardice? stupidity. it's all of those things. when will it change? it will change when they look at the math and the math costs them less to leave trump than this costs to stay with trump. >> i must say, if a democrat had concocted -- well, actually donald trump was a democrat most of his life. let's say donald trump is a shrewd democrat who wanted to destroy the republican party, he could not have created a more effective political virus to tear through the gop and rip it to shreds and have people afraid to stand up and fight for the

values, at least, jordan, that the republican party always stood for. our republican party, the reason i went to washington, to fight democrats is because i believed in balanced budgets, less debt, a smaller government, a strong, unified defense against russian aggression and against chinese communist aggression. these were the basics that we all believed in, that held us all together. now -- well, i didn't even talk about free trade. now none of this is part of what the republican party stands for anymore. donald trump has undercut every single one of those first principles of the republican party and now it's about fighting for a phony wall. >> well, it's just amazing to me how many truly big government republicans there are in the party. and after, you know, about eight

years or so during the obama years of hearing about cutting the deficit, cutting the budget, cutting spending, you have republicans who really just seem to not care at all about the ballooning deficit. i think that the turning point for trump, you know, john is talking about how his popularity somewhere like kentucky is over 80% with voters, the turning point is going to be if the economy really takes a nosedive and if we go into a recession. you look at how things have been fairly steady, but donald trump's unpredictability is not helpful to the overall economy. does it look like 2019 is going to be a year where dronald trum is going to be a steadier policies and is going to calm down his rhetoric when it comes to the fed, i think

that's doubtful. plenty of republican voters will forgive donald trump for pretty much anything as long as the economy is doing well. but when the economy goes, so they go. >> but, mika, i don't understand why. because they are following the biggest spending republican, the biggest spending liberal in the history of this republic. the budget is bigger than it has ever been under any democratic president. the national debt is bigger than it has been under any democratic president. and it just keeps exploding by the day. these are not big government republicans in donald trump's party. they're what we would have called big government liberals not so many years ago. and the question is why are all of these republicans -- >> what are they doing? >> -- why are they supporting big-government liberals who call themselves republicans?

>> they're under a spell. i don't know. it seems certain that president trump is going to break his half-baked promise to build a wall on the southern border paid for by mexico. remember during the campaign how often donald trump said he was a master negotiator, that he alone could break the log jams in washington, that he alone could do what career politicians could never do, he could do it. this morning most of the government of washington, madison and hamilton is closed to the american people. hundreds of thousands of people are working without pay. others are in danger of losing their tax rebates, their housing, even the support they need to put food on the table for their children. and yet this president has skipped many of the key negotiating sessions. and when he's been present, not a thing gets done. he insults his guests, he goes on profanity-laced tirades,

obsesses about impeachment. master negotiator? ask the many americans whose families are desperate for this shutdown to end what they think of donald trump's negotiating skills. not much, i'd guess. >> still ahead on "morning joe," trump may have more to attack, the republicans who want this shutdown to end with or without the funding of the wall. we'll tell how is breaking with the white house when "morning joe" comes right back. itis. itis. but you're still moved by moments like this. don't let psoriatic arthritis take them away. taltz reduces joint pain and stiffness and helps stop the progression of joint damage. for people with moderate to severe psoriasis, 90% saw significant improvement. taltz even gives you a chance at completely clear skin. don't use if you're allergic to taltz. before starting, you should be checked for tuberculosis.

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have you considered using emergency powers to grant yourself authorities to build this wall without congressional approval? and, second -- >> yes, i have. >> reporter: you have? >> i have. and i can do it if i want. >> reporter: so you don't need congressional approval to build

a wall? >> absolutely, we can call a national emergency. we can do it. i haven't do it. i may do it. i may do it. but we can call a national emergency and build it very quickly. i am a loud to do it, yes. it's called a national emergency. what we're doing with eminent domain is in many cases we'll make a deal up front and we've already done that. the secretary has done a lot of that. if we can't make a deal, we take the land and pay them through a court process. >> reporter: couldn't that hold up your wall? >> it's not going to hold it up because under the military version of eminent domain and under actually homeland security we can do it before we even start. >> a military version of eminent domain. it's astounding. so astounding that eric eriksson who just last week said he would vote for donald trump again over mitt romney if that was an

election said a president does not get to declare an emergency and spend money not allocated by congress. doing so would be impeachable. meanwhile, republicans on capitol hill weren't so pleased. justin amash of michigan tweeted "i am not aware of any military version of eminent domain. i am aware of executive overreach and this sounds like it. evan mcmullin wrote the "military version of eminent domain" is tyranny. >> that's all you need to know. >> i think this is why we had a revolutionary war against the british, and it's actually why we were given a form of government that actually protects property rights. with the president getting this desperate, phillip, let me ask you, obviously he is spinning wildly and coming up with new what some people have said are

tyrannical theories. where does this negotiation stand right now? >> well, we're at a standstill, joe. the democrats have said repeatedly they will not fund this wall. trump is trying every which way to get the wall. he's now saying he build it with steel slats instead of with concrete, he's offering some humanitarian aid to go along with the 5-plus billion dollars he's demanding for the wall. you're starting to see some pressure from some republicans growing fearful of the shutdown continuing for much longer? >> which ones specifically will put pressure on the majority leader to actually get moving towards a deal? >> one that jump last week was senator cory gardner of colorado. that is a state where trump is unpopular. he lost there in 2016.

cory gardner said to garrett haake of nbc, let's get the government reopened. we'll see this week if there's more pressure from some other republican senators. but you could see that that's where it starts to build and mcconnell could eventually come to the white house and say, guys, we got to get this government open, we got to figure something out. >> nick, is that where the pressure comes, whether it's susan collins in maine or tom tillis in north carolina? these republicans in what are still swing states, are these the republicans senators that go to mitch mcconnell saying this is a joke, we're shifting down the government over a myth? we're going to get killed when we go back home politically. >> you know, it's partly them and partly the voters, joe. this wall is not popular as a metaphor or as a reality.

people are going to see the consequences of the shutdown just go on and ramify, especially at the airports, tsa, monuments and parks. people are going to start seeing kind of more and more the import of this on their daily lives. you know, applying for a mortgage and having it not be processed. it goes on and on. the side that loses these shutdown fights i think, joe, is the side that holds the ransom for a thing that isn't that popular. and the democrats know that if they give in this time, it will be an unending stream of ransom for everybody budget over and over and offer again. so they can't let it happen this time. it's the same lesson that president obama learned in his office. over and over and over again the president will drag out something he can't pass normally and try and stick it in.

>> at some point, mika, the democrats are going to keep passing these republican bills that they've been passing? and they're going to keep passing them and they're going to fund every part of the government piece by piece by piece? and it's just -- it's going to be too hard for mitch mcconnell to hold his members, i would think, unless cory gardner and susan collins and thom tillis and a lot of other republicans want to go into early retirement next year. >> all right. our thanks to philip rucker for being on this morning. still ahead, there's a crisis emerging at the mexican border, not thousands of terrorists, though, streaming into the country. rather it's the conditions at migrant shelters. that new reporting is next on "morning joe."

i have never had so much support as i have in the last week over my stance for border security, for border control and for, frankly, the wall or the barrier. i have never had anything like it in terms of calls coming in,

in terms of people writing in and tweeting and doing whatever they have to do. i've never had this much support and we've done some things that, as you know, have been very popular. >> you know, mika, at the risk of repeating ourselves, that was a complete lie. >> i know. >> only 25%, as you know, only 25% of americans support this president shutting down the government to build his phony wall. >> joining us now, columnist for the huffington post, kurt bardella is a spokesman for the house oversight committee and national reporter for "the new york times," she's out with a new piece, "new chaos on the border." tell us about your latest piece, about the impact of president trump's immigration stance. >> sure. what we found is that there are

migrant families piling up at the southwest border and that for months authorities there have been asking for support and for help. and it's not just these large numbers of families, but many of them are sick because it's flu season. but rather than getting extra support to try to address them and adjust the conditions such that children can be taken care of, all of the focus has been on deterrent policies. so the directive from the white house is we're not accommodating families who are arriving now. instead we're coming up with new policies to replace things like family separation, like the asylum ban, both of which have been blocked by the courts with new policies, even though these officials are telling the white house that these new ideas, whether we're tacking about one to force asylum seekers to wait in mexico or vast tent cities, they're likely to face the same fate. they're either likely to be blocked by the courts again or

to be so expense of they're not justifiable to taxpayers and yet they're pushing forward anyway because that's what donald trump has asked for. >> i want to ask you given your history in the house and your history with the republican party, how do we get out of -- how does this log jam get broken? you have donald trump beating his head against his wall. there's literally been as far as i can tell, except for a couple of cosmetic things there,'s bee no sign of anything happening. >> clearly donald trump is not going to back down. house democrats and speaker pelosi have drawn a line in the sand, they're not going to fund this. where is mitch mcconnell and the senate on this? if mcconnell starts getting pressure from senate republicans

saying we need a solution, saying it needs to end, finally we can have mcconnell involved in this. with all the meetings with mike pence and jared kushner, we're not seeing any movement on this. >> caitlin was talking about the administration and you mention wilbur ross and his role of secretary of commercial, his role that should be looked into by house oversight committee, what can we expect from house oversight now that democrats are in power? >> elijah cummings sent 51 requ

date to comply, how they want to at a citizenship to the census for the first time in almost 70 years, why did the idea come from and why did wilbur ross lie about it? he said it came from the justice department and it actually came from steve bannon. today right now the judiciary democrats are going to be there trying to get answers firsthand about what happened at the border, why people are dying. there's a lot of activity and oversight going on right now. >> caitlin at this moment woor fighting f-- we're fighting for $5 billion for a wall at the border. what things has the administration not planned for or properly funded that you are seeing down there? >> so can i talk about one sector, for example. uma, arizona, one of the largest

crossings where 87% of people who cross are part of families and more than half are children. officials told me they've been asking for a modular facility that is nothing fancy. officials said it's basically more than the concrete cells we have now. you'd see beds, places for children to play. right now children are walking around clutching bottles of pedialyte. their requests have been denied. at the end of the day you still have kids sitting on concrete cells who are sick waiting to be processed. >> thank you so much for your reporting and kurt bardella, thank you as well. still ahead, john bolton does some foreign policy clean-up, reassuring allies, including

israel that, the u.s. troops will not immediately withdraw from syria, despite what the commander in chief, president trump, says. that new reporting is next on "morning joe." "morning joe." i hear it in the background and she's watching too, saying [indistinct conversation] [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪

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so our boys, our young women, our men, they're all coming back. they're coming back now. we're going to be removing our troops. i never said we're doing it that quickly. >> how long? >> it's going quickly. >> we have won against isis. we've beaten them and we've beaten them badly. >> we won't be finally pulled out until isis is gone. we won. that's the way we want it and that's the way they want it. >> those were some of president trump's conflicting statements that began two and a half weeks ago when he tweeted that isis in syria has been, quote, defeated and he was ordering the

immediate withdrawal from the country. but it turns out that quick pull-out may not be happening at all. carol is traveling with national security adviser john bolton. >> reporter: the u.s. may not withdrawing all troops, so it won't be the complete withdrawal that he had promised and it will be the u.s. who is going to finish the job in syria, not turkey. john bolton is here trying to reassure allies like israel about the president's withdrawal plans. in doing so, he's outlining a very different policy than the one the president put forward last month. he told us yesterday that no u.s. troops are leaving northern syria until turkey can guarantee it won't then go in and attack the kurds, who have been a critical al lie for the u.s. in the fight against isis. he also told us, quote, there are objectives that we want to

accomplish that condition the withdrawal. and he said that the u.s. may leave some troops in southern syria as a deterrent to iran. president trump responding to this yesterday said he never said this was going to be a quick withdrawal, which is not true, and he said that the u.s. is going to stay in syria until isis is gone, which is a shift from what he said last month. now, bolton seems to have accomplished his goals in reassuring israeli officials but he flies today to turkey where frankly he faces a much tougher audience from president erdogan, who has shown no signs of wanting to agree to the terms that bolton has presented so far on this trip. >> thank you very much. john bolton also addressed a timeline for u.s. troop withdrawal telling reporters, quote, this is a cause-and-effect mission, timetable or timing of the withdrawal won't actually be established until all the conditions are meant. john heilemann, is trump going

to repudiate him? was this not the issue that mattis left on? i wonder what happens next. >> i do, too. i can never presume what trump will do. there as a lot of kind of lunatic cop/sane cop dynamic in how trump conducts foreign policy. each says what's he's going to say and does what he's going to do and then someone goes out to reassure allies about what really is about to happen, don't pay attention to the president, he's a nut, he's saying what he's saying but this is what's really going on. now john bolton in the absence of rex tillerson, john mattis, rex kelly, now john bolton gets to play sane cop to donald trump's lunatic cop. whether donald trump ends up attacking john bolton, he end up

attacking everybody at some point. this is enough foreign policy that it's perfectly possible that the president is fine with what bolton is saying because he recognizes that is sort of the chosen role -- the assigned role, he's doing kind what he's supposed to do. >> elise, what do you think? >> i think this is absolutely incredible. donald trump apparently has no control over his foreign policy whatsoever. if we're relying on john bolton to be the sane cop, we are really, really screwed. donald trump, the policy, 2,000 troops out of syria. then he dps to iragoes to iraq the case that the war against syria can be prosecuted from bases in iraq and he failed to meet with iraqi officials and apparently gave officials in baghdad only a couple of hours'

notice he was coming and to meet with him. he squanders the political capital there. it doesn't take much for the iraqi to rile up against the troops. now john bolton is now talking about troops for the long haul in southern syria. it's baffling to me and i wonder who is president. >> yeah, me, too. >> coming up, we'll continue to fact check the president's many lies about the border, the wall, the shutdown, a shutdown which is now on day 17. plus, the "new york times" peter baker joins us with his new reportings on the origins of the border wall idea. "morning joe" is coming right back. ing right back (voice) you know what you're doing right now?

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or the one awarded by the people? uh... correct! you don't have to choose, 'cause, uh... oh! (vo) switch to the network awarded by rootmetrics and j.d. power. buy the latest galaxy phones, get galaxy s9 free. i can relate and i'm sure that the people that are on the receiving end will make adjustment. they always do. they'll make adjustment. people understand exactly what's going on. but many of those people that won't be receiving a paycheck, many of those people agree 100% with what i'm doing. we're trying to do everything possible to get money to our incredible people, but many of those incredible people but agree with me and they say make sure you win this battle. this is a very important battle to win. >> you know, mika, this is

getting so confusing, so confusing on so many levels. the president -- remember had he said that jim and all the others -- is it jim that goes to paris all the time? jim and all these other federal employees are calling him and saying i'm with you, i'm with you. then he said i don't have to open the government because none of those people are calling me anyway. now they're calling him and saying, hey, i'm with you, i'm just hanging out in paris, mr. president, boy, it's not what it used to be but we're with you. no, actually, donald trump has no idea what these people are going through. >> none. >> none. none. they're not getting their paychecks. and, by the way, i do know what they're going through because my father was unemployed for about a year and a half, and every two weeks was painful.

every month was painful. i mean, you didn't know how you were going to get by, how you were going to be able to pay the mortgage, how you were able to fill up the gas tank, how you were able to put food on the table, how you were going to be able to take care of three young, growing kids. donald trump says they're going to make do. mika, i wonder what working class americans in pennsylvania, what working class americans in alabama, in wisconsin, in minnesota and all these places where donald trump claimed he was one of them and where they thought he was one of them. i wonder what they're thinking today s today. i wonder what farmers in illinois, farmers in iowa, farmers across america are thinking about p today about a man who says no worries, no paycheck, no worries, you'll take care of it it i.

unfortunately for families like my family back in the 1970s, sometimes it's extraordinarily hard, sometimes you can't just, quote, make care of it, especially if it's the president of the united states who is taking that paycheck out of your wallet for no good reason. >> and these are government workers who you're talking about. and for those government works are who wonder whether their paychecks will ever start up again and they turn on the television and watching the president talk, flouting and laughing, even saying he'll drag it on a year. are you kidding me? >> john heilemann, what about the small business owners that are going to be waiting this year to get their tax refunds that the federal government owes them, tax refunds they're counting on so they can hire another worker or pay past debt so they can do what they need to

do to keep their small business operating for another three months. >> that's obviously a huge impact, joe, and therei's tens f millions of americans who are not small business owners who will get decent-size refunds from their taxes and look forward to that as an important moment for them in their spending decision, how they plan their lives. you and i are hold enough that we've seen the theatrics around shutdowns on multiple occasions in our career. there is always a period, the natural cycle. the shutdown happens and there's a period where everyone says, broadly, you know, i don't even notice that the government is not open anymore. it's only partial, it doesn't directly affect my life. hey, who knew that it has no impact. and then a moment comes, some moment, either a story happens with some neglect kicks in where

there's a vivid illustration of the pain or there's widespread pain. something either cataclysmic or striking that gets a lot of news coverage or we get to the point where wide number of americans are affected and that's when the politics and political dynamic tends to really shift. >> we have the "new york times" peter baker with us. you've been through a lot of these shutdowns before, as have i. we've seen them, either been in the middle of one or reported on one. you've reported on all of these government shutdowns. they're usually about something. in '95 and '96, it was balancing the budget. in 2013 it was about obamacare and sequestration and cutting spending. now it is just remarkable. this is like the "seinfeld" shutdown. you have republicans and democrats who came to an agreement, the president deep sixed it because two talk show hosts told him that it was a bad idea. and now here we are with the

longest running government shutdown in u.s. history. >> it would be next weekend, you're exactly right. >> the trick is a lot of these shutdowns as you say are on disputes that can be resolved somewhere in the middle, right? you want x dollars, i want y dollars, i want to billion the budget in seven years, you want nine, let's meet at eight. we're not in that situation now because the wall has become such a symbol, it's not a matter of cutting the $5.6 billion in half, it's now become a question of morality. that's what speaker of the house nancy pelosi says. she said the wall is immoral. the president on the other hand said it's imperative to our national security. those are hard positions to walk back from. what is a middle ground between must have toe defend against an invasion versus an immore ralt, there's not a lot of middle ground there. you haven't seen any movement in

the last few days of any consequence, nobody projecting any kind of movement in the next few days. >> and, mika, it is a shutdown based on a symbol that is based on a caravan of lies. and so how do you when the president says we need this extra money because we've got 4,000 terrorists that are coming in through the southern border -- >> which they're not. >> which is just a complete lie. the president's own statistics from the government show that. when he says we've got to shut down the southern border because that's where people apply for citizenship. that's a complete lie. or he says we've got to shut down the southern border because we're having an invasion when again, illegal immigration from t the south has been going down steadily for oafver a decade. so fighting over symbols? we're fighting over lies.

as a democrat, how do you trust that? >> you can't. >> let's bring in kasie hunt. elise and nick are back with us as well. senator king, mitch mcconnell has i think three senators so far to call for an end of the shutdown. how many is it going to take for this president to realize it's a no-win battle. >> it only takes one more to get to a majority in the senate. if you're talking about a veto, it will take a lot more. there are underlying institutional issues here. this is not only about a wall but it's about a president that doesn't seem to realize that there are constraints on what he can do. he can't build a wall. and there are constraints in the constitution in the theory of this country and that's really what's more deeply at stake

here. if he is able to extort a policy that he wants out of the congress that isn't popular in the country based upon holding the government hostage literally, that's what we're tacking about, then -- talking it had happ-- it will happen ag and again and again. this is what the framers were worried about was an executive who overreached and tried to act like a monarch. that's what the constitution was all about in 1787. >> do you have examples of constituents who are being hurt by the shutdown or what have you heard about its impact? >> it's starting to come through to regular people. we always talk about the 800,000 federal employees. there are probably another 500,000 or more contractors who service various government agencies. they're going to be hit by this

and once it's settled, they're not going to get back pay. so they're in the cross hairs. we've got acadia national park up in maine. all the parks are open but they're not being managed, if you will. that's one of the ridiculous things about this. let's pass the funding bills for things like the national parks, the treasury department that have nothing to do with the treasury department with the border walls. apropos of nothing we've been talking about, there is nobody in the congress who is for open borders. i'm so tired of hearing you're either for the wall or you're for open borders. that's nonsense. everyone is for good border security. we're just not for border security that doesn't make economic or practical sense. >> congressman, it's good to have a little bit of maine wisdom here in gotham city.

you were talking about this kind of action that trump is holding hostages basically -- >> he reminds me of a guy who says you have a nice little form here, it would be a shame if you had a fire. you've got a nice little business here, a shame if you put it out of business. >> you said this kind of thing is the framers were concerned about, you invoked the word tyranny. you're not nancy pelosi, you're not a california liberal, you're an independent senator from maine tocaucuses with democrats. is nancy pelosi correct that this is a moral issue? >> i don't understand her saying that it's immoral. i didn't get that. i don't see it that way. i think it doesn't make sense, it's uneconomic, there are lots of places where we don't need a big wall. there are all kinds of problems with it. what i'm talking about, though,

is the deeper institutional level of a president who basically says i can do whatever i want, anyone who gets in my way, i'm going to bully them in some way and in this case holding up the jobs and functioning of the entire u.s. government. >> you think not compromising even a little bit on this issue is a matter of principle that trump cannot win on this issue? >> i do think that there are principles involved, but i do think there always is going to be a way out. he's going to declare victory no matter how this ends. for example, there are places along the border where a wall makes sense and, in fact, there is one. i've seen it in southern texas. so let's say there are places where we can build a wall. one of the problems, john, is we've never been given a plan that i know of. where do you need wall, where do you need fence, where do you need sensors? the wall has become this mythic entity, but we've never been

told what are you really talking about here? because there may be places where everybody can agree, yeah, a wall makes sense there. the problem is he's stilling this as the wall or nothing and we're going to keep the government closed. that's not the way we make policy in this country. >> and the problem, kasie hunt, is his style is to lie and bully and not be trusted. what's the thing withle room that democrats would offer in any scenario. i think that would be incredibly risky. he has proven to be unpredi unpredictable and not care. if he's agreed to something in a room, he'll walk out of the room and say something completely different. what do you hear about how democrats are approaching this? >> you mentioned that trust issue. i think that's at the root of all of this. it may have to do more with republicans than democrats pause

vice president pence went up to capitol hill and assured everybody that the president was on board that was psed just before christmas. mitch mcconnell goes out in public in front of the microphones and says i'm confident that we're not going to have a government shut down. and that -- mitch mcconnell says i'm not going to put these house bills on the floor, if i read it as how can he trust the president again? he got really burned. senator king, there as what is your perception of how this is being worked out? and do you think that his sort of lack of engagement in this process is something that's really hindering everything?

>> my understanding is that he has not been engaged. basically he said on the floor, i'm watching my hand of this is, this is between the democrats and the president. come back to me with an agreement that the president will sign and we're good. yob i don't think that's sustainable. if that he's been adept in the past of finding compromise and working with people to find a compromise. he said i'm not going get involved in these negotiations because i can't rely on the foreclosure so this wall has been called a metaphor, it's been called a symbol, it's been called a bad idea.

tell us about your reporting about how it got started in the beginning. >> at first it was a num on being device way back to make sure he would talk about imbrags on a real estate guy, a talk about wall or something he can get his fingers on. once he gets out there, he finds it's a they adviserally get. as unyou can hear the beat, beat, beat, and if you talk to a lot of immigration activists, hardliners who think the imprigs

there are a lot of other things they think will be more important toward shutting down that light line and has taken on the quality that it as -- but this is so hard to figure out when you're looking at the republicans' actions and what they're doing. this is an idea during the middle of the campaign when donald trump was talking about building a wall, if you look at pew polls and poles from organization organize and here we are three fours of americans are against shutting down the government to build this one. again, i keep trying to figure out what is the end game for the republican party, who will tell you and tell me and tell everybody who will listen and

they understand that it nothing but -- at what point -- i mean, do you see anybody in the party standing up and trying to at that we can't destroy our sen e senate. >> there are advisers who tell him he doesn't have to worry quite so much about the base. if for some reason the wall doesn't get build or and who believes they're fighting for the things he believed in it. they seem him as sharing their values and their fears and their concerns about the bothereder. so there are those who are telling him he has more wiggle room there han he might thing pb

if he doesn't get the wall, it means he didn't succeed. >> elise jordan. >> you said that it's not like everyone in congress is for democrats or for open borders. and you agree that there are areas that could use some kind of wall function. >> sure. >> on the born and in spots that really need for theification, principles, but not getting into a sweeping offer. >> yes, that's exactly the point. i mean, a 2,000 mile wall, john kelly i said think it won't be 2,000 miles. we don't really know what they're talking about when they say that. i think there ought to be a blue rib on commission, if you will,

but everyone in the senate has voted for strong border security at one time or another. . i did, all the members of the democrat being caucus back in 0 2013. it's a question of how do do you it as a practical matter? in some when you could do it with fences or senses of dron. you need smart border security, not just building something that will cost $20 million a mile. and, you know, think what you could do with that money in other with let's start with the fact -- here's something we've lost in a, half of the illegal

people in our country is because they've come here on visas and overstayed them. and the other problem is asylum seekers who come to ports of entry. they're not trying to sneak across the border, swim crass the river. the to a 21st century problem and it not the right solution. let's talk about what the real problems are, how shall we deal with them. the $5 billion isn't the issue. it the wall, which as akeep saying, isn't the the right thk the i actually think the chinese thought of it a couple thousand years ago. >> and emperor hadrian's wall. >> yes. so here we are in 2019 and the president, speaking of national security, has sent troops down

to get a border for a nonexistent caravan, nonexistence yet he's talking about ripping troops out of syria, which go and to isis, allow them to rebuild there. right now it's hard to read the tea leaves. the president said the troops were going to leave and then he said, well, we're not going to take them out all at once. now we hear that the national security security adviser is assuring allies like israel, i don't and do you have any knowledge of what the president's plans are in syria and what ought they need to be? >> then john bolton today or over the weekend is doing the

aiming part, which should have been done months ago about the conditioned base leaving, reassuring our allies, the israelis, telling the iraqis and that should have been the way that was handled in the first place. the ning that worried me the moe myself, jeanne shaheen, marco lube yet. i can't claim -- the banning of the turks was just irresponsible and awful. that seems to be where going to pull back. now, we'll see what happens when john bolton goes to turkey today or tomorrow and deals mr. who

apparently -- but this just demonstrates the kind of reason you want to think about these things, consult about them. the sad thing for me is john bolton is doing what i'm sure secretary mattis recommended and the fact that he didn't do it with and i don't sleep as well with jim mattis gone, i got to tell you. >> i don't as well either. senator angus king, thank you. say hi to mary. tell her i'm listening to my andy gibb record all the time. >> by the way, if i look familiar today, it's because i arrived at the studio without a jacket. this is joe's jacket and tie i have on. >> you look handsome. >> i knew it. >> i thought your game was a little off. you're wearing my $25 jacket. >> peter baker, thank you as well for your reporting.

still ahead on "morning joe" the people versus donald j. trump. our next guest says the president is demonstrably unfit for office. so he asks what are we waiting for? that's next on "morning show."

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explore cost support options. amazon prime video so when you say words like... show me best of prime video into this... you'll see awesome stuff like this. discover prime originals like the emmy-winning the marvelous mrs. maisel... tom clancy's jack ryan... and the man in the high castle. all in the same place as your live tv. its all included with your amazon prime membership. that's how xfinity makes tv... simple. easy. awesome. welcome back. joining us now is jason, writer for "the new york times." he writes the united states has

never had a president as demonstrably unfit for the office as trump, and it is becoming clear that 2019 is likely to be dominated by a single question, what are we going to do about it? the president must go. achieving this outcome won't be easy. it will require honorable people who have served in the trump administration to share publicly what they have seen and what they believe. it will require congressional republicans to acknowledge that they let a conman take over their party and then defended that conman. it's a fine balance. >> it is a fine balance. david, let's start with the last sentence that mika read, that a rushed impeachment actually

helps the case of donald trump. i remember back in '98, '99, when i was voting on impeachment against bill clinton, i had a lot of my base enraged at me because they wanted me to say out of the gate they wanted me to vote for all four articles of impeachment, and i said that's not the way it works. i'm going to read them all and i ended up voting for two. can you explain to incoming democrats why there must be due process, why there must be hearings, why evidence must be taken in by the judiciary committee, by the oversight committee, why due process actually even matters in a case

of impeachment. >> i think there are two answers. i think there's the due process answer, which is in substance the more important one. the founders thought impeachment was so important but they also want it to be a considered process. we should be waiting for the mueller report, we're should really know what actually happened and didn't happen with russia. in my column i list four reasons why i think he's unfit for office. collusion with russia is not one of my four because i don't think there's evidence of that yet. remember bill clinton was impeached and didn't leave office, richard nixon was never impeached and was still forced from office. so the key here is persuading republicans that donald trump is not fit for office and i don't think an impeachment process that's actually going to shore up his support and focus the news on house democrats who are

never going to be popular with republicans, i don't think that helps the case here. so that's basically my plea for some caution and so sobriety here around the subject. >> and again, going back to my own personal experience, i've said it before, my father loved richard nixon from the 1950s forward, he stayed with nixon and he stayed with nixon until the house investigation or the joint investigation got the tapes out to the public. and when that happened, my father, who had been a nixon staunch supporter for decades said the man's unfit for office, he needs to leave. >> if you go back and look polling, nixon's support among republicans well into late 1973 and even into '74 was extremely strong. his approval rating among republicans when he resigned was

50%. so i think people are confusing the fact that trump hasn't lost a lot of support with republicans with the idea that he still could lose that support. it's not inevitable he's going to keep the support. you guys have been talking about the shutdown all morning, it's clear trump doesn't know how he's going to get out of this. when republicans start looking at the politician, even setting aside whether he deserves to be removed from office, which i stronger believe, when they start looking at the politics, it's going to get messier than it was before the mid terms. >> david, we have quite a few people who want to ask you questions, bullet point your four reasons why you think donald trump should be removed from office. >> the first is he has used the presidency for personal enrichment. he's accepted money from foreign government at his hotels. every other president, republican and democrat, has separated their finances from

the presidency and he's done the opposite. he's benefited from it. number two, he -- hiding 280,000 in campaign money is a big deal. he has repeatedly obstructed justice and has repeatedly tried to subvert the check and balances system. he said that the free press is an enemy of the people he rejects basic findings from the central intelligence agency. there are a couple others i imagine others would want to consider, like he doesn't do the basic part of the job, including reading briefing papers.

>> there's that. >> small evidence. >> the evidence may still come out on russia but for me those are the four points. >> hey, it's heilemann here. this is the position of a fair number of thoughtful liberals and it's been their position for a couple of years. of course he's unfit for office, of course there's ground for impeachment but i don't think he should be impeached for the following reason. if he's impeached, some large chunk of the country, millions of people under any scenario, under any process, are going to regard it as a coup. so the only good outcome here to get rid of this particular president, with all of his defects, many which rise to impeachment, is to get him out through the form normnormal pro

2020, beat him at the ballot box. not my position but the position of a fair number of liberals, how do you respond? >> i think it's a fair position. i understand it. if he maintains 90% of republicans supporting him, i don't think we're going to get there. impeachment is in some ways normal or at least it's extraordinary but the founds are didn't want to us say when there's an unfit person in office, just wait for the next election. they were clear. this is in the constitution for a reason. let's imagine, and this is dark so i hate bringing it up, but let's imagine a true external national emergency, a war started by another country, a terror attack, a natural disaster of the scale bigger than katrina, a financial crisis. can you fathom the damage that could be done when there is a corrupt president in office?

i completely understand the idea the healthiest solution would be to have him rejected at the ballot box but i worry deeply about the consequences if he's left to respond to a true national emergency. >> 100% amen. >> you moved from running the washington bureau for "the new york times" to being unchained and writing anything you want to write in op-ed pieces. what do you think the responsibility of the press is in the next two years. if you were still runs the washington bureau, we heard marty baron say we're going to work, not war. what guidance would you give over the next two years given some failures of the president over the last three years? >> yeah, i mean, look the president is not perfect. i agree with marty baron's line, the executive editor of the the "new york times," he's not my boss because i'm on the opinion

side and he says we are not the opposition and i agree with that. look at this morning's "new york times," it was an investigative piece the times broke about democrats using underhanded tactics in alabama. progressive readers say don't do that and make the democrats look bad but my job in the media is to report what they see out there and it's not to be a member of the opposition. that's what the press is here for. so, yes, you're going to have people on the opinion side arguing all kinds of things, but i think the press isn't perfect but i think this idea of just going out and doing old fashioned reporting, without fear or favor, whoever it makes look bad or good is the right way to do it. >> all right, david leonhardt, thank you very much. can you read his piece in "the new york times." and we'll talk to a government leader on whether the solution to the shutdown should include funding for a border wall.

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the new trade deal we have with mexico and canada, what we save on that just with mexico will pay for the wall many times

over just in a period of a year, two years and three years. so i view that as absolutely mexico is paying for the wall. >> joining us now, a member of the house ways and means, republican congressman tom reid of new york. last week the congressman broke with his party and took the unusual step of supporting the democratic majority's rules package. welcome to the show. good to you have on board this morning. >> always great to be with pup. >> let me start by asking how has that worked out for you? are you still allowed to go in the republican cloak room? >> of course. we're going to just continue to doing what we think is right. we put our voting card where our mouth has been and cuedio to m colleagues for joining us to work to solve problems for america's people.

>> eric eriksson tweeted this weekend a president does not get to declare an emergency and spend money not allocated by congress, doing so would, impeachable. of course this follows donald trump saying that what he can't achieve by democratic means, he will achieve by emergency, by declaring an emergency and seizing lands. would you support what he calls this military-style eminent domain? >> well, you know, i do see the position that the president is articulating but i think the better course is to use the legislative process, to go through that process with the house and senate that we're going to have to do. it's untenable for us to remain in this position as a legislature. so i encourage the president to continue his efforts to work with the house and senate and get this taken care of, get the government open and fix the border. both sides of the aisle, joe, border security is where the common ground in.

let's just embrace it and get it done. >> do you think building the wall is the most effective use of taxpayer money from your detective to secure the border or do you believe there are more effect of means? -- effective means? >> i think it's going to take a wall in part, it's going to be or technology. this is becoming a battle about a word, the wall, it's so assanine. people are coming up to me and saying you're a member of congress? it means a border wall, means technology, it means people. why doesn't we solve the problem. >> kasie hadn't is with us. >> hi, congressman. democrats this week plan to start introducing one bill at a time essentially to reopen parts of the government one at a time.

do you plan on voting in favor of those? >> well, we'll see what they are but obviously what they're doing is raising the political stakes. let's be honest. this all right now is all about politics. this isn't about substantively doing what's right for the american people. >> but these are republican bills, these are bills you wrote as republicans in the house. it's very unusual that democrats would put on the floor bills that were written when republicans controlled the chamber. >> sure. >> presumably you would have voted for them then but you're not sure now? >> well, we got to see what those actual bills are. you never know. people will take positions and then you read the text. >> it's pretty straight forward. >> i'll take a look at them. >> they did put the text out over the weekend. the first would open treasury and irs and back pay some employees. >> so why are they doing that is the question? why are they doing it in piecemeal? tax refunds, food stamps. people going without paychecks, absolute lich we should-- absol

should address the shutdown but we should fix the problem and that's border security. let's go over this political battle and substantively once and for all come together and do what's right for the american people. >> congressman, you said this was about the border, you're exactly right. there's a debate on how to best secure the border but following up on what kasie had said, if bills are passed -- if bills are put on the floor that were drafted by republicans and they were not changed and they are to open up parts of the government that, for instance, would allow people to get their tax refunds, would allow people to get food assistance to feed their children and if those were republican drafted bills that democrats put on the house floor without changes, would you support those bills? >> joe, i'll let my record be clear, i'm willing to cross over and support legislation that i

think is right. if those are the types of measures, i'm open to them. and we'd be open to relieving the shutdown. but why do it piecemeal? why not just get over, stand up to the extremists in both of our parties and say let's put the american people first, not partisan-based politics. that is what we're dealing with right now at its height. it's a shame because the people losing that are the american people. >> congressman, elise here. it seems pretty likely that piecemeal is the only way that anything is actually going to get done. or do you see a likelihood that both sides could come together and actually end the shutdown and not have this go on until state of the union? >> yeah, i believe that's the course we're on. i mean, it is untenable for -- people say we can't build a wall, we can't build a structure at the border and then also to have hundreds of thousands of american citizens go without a paycheck, have disruption in their life. this is going to come to a head

and i think it's going to come to a head with a deal that will pass the house and senate because you got to get 60 votes in the senate, 218 in the house and something the president will sign. let's all take a cooler head approach to this, sit to this,k it out and the funny little secret in d.c. is people know what the parameters of a deal look like, they just hadn't had the hutzpah to stand up to their extreme party bases and say enough is enough of the shenanigans. >> republican congressman tom reed thaw for being with us today. >> thank you, sir. coming up, from medicare for all to a green new deal, princeton's eddie glaude jr. and commentary magazine's noah rothman debate the policy ideas that will likely drive much of the 2020 democratic primary. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. i can't tell you who i am or what i witnessed,

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final thoughts this hour go to kasie hunt. we've been asking for, what, 17 days now how does this end? what are you looking for today? >> honestly i don't see an end in sight right now. the reality here, mika, and i've covered a number of these shutdowns now for better or for worse, is that they only end when one side or the other is insomuch political pain that they give in, and right now neither side is in that kind of pain, and it's not even clear in the case of the president what that would even look like. would it just be, you know, sean hannity and laura ingraham turning on him? we have no idea. and these impacts are just starting to be felt across the country and the people that are caught in the middle are people who are not getting their paychecks, who are furloughed, contractors who may never get paid and, of course, it seems potentially every tax paying american who may not get their tax refunds. so i think that is something that might make a difference, you know, if you're -- >> yeah. >> -- i would say in a state,

you have representatives to call, call them, call your local news station, tell them, you know, make your politicians in washington aware of the pain that you are in because otherwise i really don't see how anyone here in washington is motivated to solve it. >> kasie hunt, thank you very much. still ahead, we will confront one of the biggest lies of the trump campaign, that the u.s. is in crisis over the number of people crossing the border illegally. plus new reporting describes how the president's fixation with the wall actually started. it was just a memory trick invented by staffers to remind him to talk about immigration on the campaign trail. we will be right back with much more "morning joe." i realize i love you, but as long as you're with jessica, there can never be anything between us. listen cassie, there's no need to cry. besides, i've got really great news.

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in this journey, i will never lie to you. i will never tell you something i do not believe. >> can you tell me now honestly, have you kept that promise at all times? >> well, i try. i mean, i do try. i think you try, too. you say things about me that are not necessarily correct. i do try, and i always want to tell the truth when i can. i tell the truth. i mean, sometimes it turns out to be where something happens that's different or there is a change, but i always like to be truthful. >> that's what president trump said back in november. remember that? but he lies to the american

people and he lies all the time and his lies have grown only more blatant. seemingly more compulsive and more damaging. we're going to fact check the president's lies again, which have helped drive the government shutdown into a third week. now donald trump's art of the deal is an offer to substitute a wall the democrats don't want with a different type of wall the democrats don't want, and i believe 75% of americans. and this is after the president rejected a deal last week that both democrats and republicans did want. also this morning national security adviser john bolton is in the middle east to try and tamp down concern over the president's hasty announcement on syria, as republican operative mike murphy noted on twitter, you can tell that things at the white house have gone totally bat blank when the go-to guy for sober-minded adult foreign policy cleanup in bolton. wow. good morning, everyone, and welcome to "morning joe."

it is monday, january 7th. with us we have national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc co-host and executive producer of show time's "the circus" john heilemann. political writer for "the new york times" and msnbc political analyst nick confessore. former aide to the george w. bush white house elise jordan and political analyst for msnbc and nbc news phillip rucker is with us as well. joe, what a way to start the week, there's so much going on and so many lies to cover. >> well, there really are, but i think more importantly instead of just looking at the blizzard of lies that are at us right now, i think this government shutdown provides an opportunity to actually look at the foundation not only of donald trump's presidential campaign, but donald trump's administration, his reason why he's president of the united states right now, and, in fact, the state of the republican

party, of trump's republican party, and conservatism. it is based on a caravan of lies. you hear it and we've heard it throughout the week, we've heard it over the past week. again, this is a wonderful opportunity, when you hear your friends or your family members say, well, we have to build a border wall because of the 4,000 terrorists that are coming across the southern border. >> right. >> well, that's a lie and the president's administration's own stats prove that to be a lie. when you hear about, you know, all the illegal immigrants that are coming across. well, that's a lie. you can look at government statistics to see that, in fact, the number is, as we say on this show, and we've been saying during the campaign, there's actually a negative net flow going back into mexico. mika, you could literally go line by line by line. the president talking about applying for citizenship at the

southern border. that's not where you apply for citizenship at the southern border. their entire ruse of this wall, which we find out was just a memory device so the president would remember to talk about illegal immigration. it's all a farce. it's all the little fat guy, you know, behind the curtain in the "wizard of oz," except this guy is no wizard, he's just a shameless tv reality show host turned demagogue. our government shutdo down becae of it and our country is going in a dangerous direction because of it. let's just go through the lies, mika, that are, again, debunked by the president's own statistics. >> absolutely. they poured out of the administration all the lies since friday. first of all, the reason why this is even happening --

>> we are nearly two weeks into a government shutdown, but our nation is also in the midst of a crisis on our southern border. >> but the entire argument for a government shutdown is based on a fallacy. >> the crisis on the southern border, yeah, we had a crisis on the southern border when george w. bush was president, and when bill clinton was president, and the number of illegal immigrants kept skyrocketing, but that number went down through the obama administration and it's at its lowest point in a decade, mika. >> the new york times has reported that based off the government's own data, with slight variations from year to year, the number of people -- it's not just from you, joe, it's from the government's data, have either been apprehended or turned away at the southern border has actually decreased over the past decade. the pew research center finds

the number of unauthorized immigrants in the united states has fallen according to the latest census data. >> i want to stop there. >> government data. >> it's government data. john heilemann, we said it throughout the entire campaign, we talked about how donald trump's fall argument -- even mike pence lying through his teeth last week, and mike pence knows he was lying through his teeth last week when he talked about the crisis at the southern border. this caravan, this invasion of illegal immigrants. the number has gone down steadily over the past decade. >> it has, and, look, i mean, we've heard -- there has been good sound on this, joe, over the last few days as people go back as we are this morning to some extent and looking at the foundations of not just the he had if i say of lies of the trump administration but this particular big lie that was at the core of his campaign. trump was on the record in 2016 basically saying, you know, whenever one of my rallies seems to be flagging, wherever it

seems like there is not enough energy in the room i discovered that the go-to thing, i just say build that wall and it riles everyone up and i get that -- it sparks all this energy and enthusiasm in the room. we all know that that is the thing that -- it's the -- it's trump's err oj nous zone, he gets all excited to hear everybody else get all excited. this particular lie has the quality that he craves most, which is that it provides that instant dopamine hit and he became wetted to it because it was so reliable on that front and the facts in that case as we know with all of these matters related to trump, the facts don't matter to him in those situations and it continues to be the case that he holds it now very close for the same reasons. >> and he even admitted, nick confessore, that when the audience started to get bored or distracted, when they seemed to wander off, he would bring back the wall and he would talk about the wall because he said it was the best applause line.

what about his own people admitting to the "new york times" that actually this was just a memory trick for him in 2014. they came up with the idea of a wall because they knew donald trump didn't like to read or perhaps he doesn't know how to read, it's hard to say, but everybody around him says he never reads. so they came up with this trick that to say build that wall and that would remind him to talk about illegal immigration. >> well, know, it's kind of astounding to imagine that we are here at this point right now to debate a solution to a crisis that isn't there by building something that we mostly have already, which is a steel fence along the border. it goes to the point of how the president had won election, by creating a sense of crisis, that our trade deals were terrible, that our country was getting screwed around the world with bad deals on nato and trade,

that there was a crisis at the border. he had to create that sense of crisis to win and he has to keep the sense of crisis to keep his popularity from going even further down. unfortunately it's hard to govern if you are constantly trying to create a sense that there is a huge problem that can't be fixed. more importantly, joe, this is really important, this is a man who said he was a great dealmaker and that his virtue as president would be i can make a deal. the first time he has to make a tough deal with somebody who can't be pushed over, which is house democrats in this case, he starts saying a state of emergency has to be called. right? make a deal. >> yeah. >> make a deal. >> he can't do it. >> no, he doesn't know how. >> both this president and the secretary of homeland security tried to scare people that thousands of terrorists are pouring over the southern border. >> we have terrorists coming through the southern border because they find that's probably the easiest place to come through.

they drive right in and they make a left. >> cbp has stopped over 5,000 special interest aliens trying to come into the country on the southern border. those are aliens who the intel community has identified are of concern, they either have travel patterns that are identified as terrorist travel patterns or they have known or suspected ties to terrorism. >> we're going to hand things over to fox news's chris wallace for this fact check which he did in realtime with white house press secretary sarah sanders. >> we know that roughly nearly 4,000 known or suspected terrorists come into our country illegally and we know that our most vulnerable point of entry -- >> wait. i know the statistic, i didn't know if you were going to use it, but i studied up on this. do you know where those 4,000 people where they're captured? airports. >> not always. >> at airports. >> certainly a large number. >> the state department says there hasn't been any terrorists they have found coming across

the southern border of mexico. >> it's by air, land and sea. the most powerful point of entry we have in this country is our southern border. >> but they are not coming across the southern border, sarah, they are coming and they are being stopped at airports. >> they are coming in a number of ways. i'm not disagreeing with you that they are coming through airports. >> oh, my goodness. so elise jordan, sarah huckabee sanders, the president's spokesperson, caught lying on fox news. i think as troubling as that is, and obviously that's very troubling -- >> something we're used to. >> -- more troubling is you have the person running the department of homeland security standing next to the president in the rose garden lying to the american people and the world about these 3,000, 4,000 people streaming across the southern border. again, she knows it's a lie. she knows that her own statistics prove it out to be a

lie. so she's lying through her teeth for political purposes. what happens, elise, when we have a real crisis and the american people are trying to figure out whether she's telling the truth about what we need to do next or whether she's just lying through her teeth because she is a political sycophant. >> i'd argue that we are already at a real crisis point because of all the lies, because there is so much absolute nonsense that has no basis in fact actual reality emanating from official government sources who are paid by the american people. i really think that we need to give chris wallace his due respect for studying up on the frequently misused and abused facts that are spouted by these administration officials and giving it back to sarah huckabee sanders in realtime. look at what she tried to do, she tried to still cast aspersions on it and say, oh, but by sea or, you know, they come -- maybe they are coming by

air. it was complete nonsense when confronted with the reality that, yes, most illegal immigrants are detained at airports, people usually overstaying their visas. this government shutdown it's really putting some pressure on tsa if you are actually concerned about border security. >> we will pick up the fact check straight ahead using data from the president's own administration that completely undercuts his claims. plus, the president suggests asylum seekers can quickly apply for citizenship. they, of course, cannot, but if anything, that false claim might entice more people to try to make the journey to america. >> thank you, mr. trump. >> you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. >> great stuff.

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string of lies from the president and his team in recent days. among that long list of falsehoods, this -- >> just remember human traffickers, remember drugs, the drugs are pouring into this country. they don't go through the ports of entry. >> yes, they do, and the president's own drug fighting agency says so. according to the associated press and the dea said in a november report that the most common trafficking technique by transnational gangs is to hide drugs in passenger vehicles or tractor-trailers as they drive into the u.s. through entry ports. >> so phillip rucker, we've talked about, again, how the president's campaign was based on a lie, a trick, so he would remember to bring it up at campaign rallies, how his campaign was based on the lie, how this shutdown is based on the lie. what is next, though, for a

republican party who is now the trump republican party, which used to be about smaller government, balanced budgets, nato, a strong defense against russian and chinese aggression. now you see the minority leader standing there next to the president in the rose garden being part of this caravan of lies, and that's actually become the basis of abraham lincoln's grand old party. how does that party win another election in the foreseeable future? >> well, joe, the continued lying, the continuing of sort of creating this false narrative, creating this false reality around so many issues, we've seen it throughout the presidency, it hurts the credibility of the administration and the republican party when they're trying to negotiate through a

very real crisis, which this government shutdown s the government is not open and fully functioning as it needs to be and there's an inability for the administration to negotiate fairly on a common set of facts with democrats in congress. the other day speaker pelosi had that briefing along with the other congressional leaders and they had to interrupt secretary nielsen as she was presenting information about the border because she did not believe that the information coming from the department of homeland security was accurate or credible. so the lack of credibility in the administration, in the data points that the federal government is sharing on behalf of president trump, is creating a real problem for the republican party in solving any kind of solution that can get this government back open. >> the president also said this about people in caravans from central america who present themselves at the southern border -- >> they can apply for asylum and

they can -- most importantly, they can apply for citizenship. >> oh, my god. his statement shows how little -- >> wait. how -- he is ignorant about just about everything that has to do with the federal government. according to the u.s. citizenship and immigration services, you have to wait a year after you've been granted asylum to apply for permanent residency. a green card after that. you must be a green card holder for at least five years to apply for citizenship. >> i'm not sure he cares about facts. >> no. there is a great video going around this weekend from a news site about donald trump saying i know more about x than anything, i know more about y than anything. mika, time and time again, he knows less about -- and this is his signature issue. he knows less about his signature issue than anybody out there on the stage, except for some people who still support

him. >> i don't understand, though, how he can get high level cabinet members around him to lie for him. that part is chilling to me. coming up on "morning joe," president trump says he is willing to drag out the shutdown for a year. wouldn't that seem to invalidate the claim that there is some immediate emergency along the border? that's next on "morning joe." e border that's next on "morning joe. >> tech: at safelite autoglass we know that when you're spending time with the grandkids... ♪ music >> tech: ...every minute counts. and you don't have time for a cracked windshield. that's why at safelite, we'll show you exactly when we'll be there. with a replacement you can trust.

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back now with the head-on collision between the president's claims and reality. among the most easily disproven lies from the president, his suggestion that construction of the wall is well under way. >> we've already built a lot of the wall. we've been working very, very hard. >> only he hasn't. the ap says trump's claim is only supported when counting work done under past presidents. >> so he's talking about the obama wall. >> and the fact that fences from prior administrations are not towering walls, he promised. he has, however, renovated some of the existing barrier.

what he was really renovating was his signature campaign promise. >> i said i was going to build a wall. i never said i'm going to build a concrete -- i said i'm going to build a wall. >> here he is saying exactly that. >> what are the walls going to be made out of? >> i will tell you what it's going to be made of. it's going to be made of hardened concrete. >> it's concrete plank. it's precast. >> concrete plank. you have to be kidding. >> in fact, just last week the president wrote on twitter, an all concrete wall was never abandoned. yeah. >> well, so john heilemann, we could keep going -- >> we could literally keep going all day. >> showing these lies. again, we know donald trump is a liar and we've known he has been a liar and we know that he has lied about immigration, we know he has lied about the wall, we know he has lied about all of the statistics, he know he's ignorant about how people become citizens. we know all of that. >> yeah.

>> i ask, again, the same question after the historic rout of republicans in november as i asked before the historic rout of republicans in november, and that is, why does this party continue marching over the cliff like lemmings behind a guy whose approval rating is 40% on an issue where 75% of maeamericans oppose the president. 75% of americans don't want the government shut down for his so-called phoney wall. what comes next? at what point does mitch mcconnell say, hey, do you know what, maybe we don't want to lose ten senate seats in 2020. maybe i don't want to have to retire in 2022 early because i don't want to be minority leader for the rest of my life. when does that happen, john? it's got to happen soon or this republican party is reduced to

dust. >> right. well, let's be clear, i think the question you're asking illustrates the fact that the republican party at the intellectual moral level has already been reduced to dust, it's not a question of whether it will be, it already has been. this question you have been asking, we've been talking about now for at least the last year or so illustrates exactly the point. the party is -- the reason that they continue to follow donald trump is very simple, it's straightforward, it's fear, and the fear is the fact that they believe that president trump continues to dominate their party, that his approval ratings within the republican party are sufficiently high that if they were to deviate from his course, however suicidal it is in any given instance, that they will pay a price within the party. mitch mcconnell is a good example. mitch mcconnell sits every day and worries about all the long-term things you are talking about, but in the short term what mitch mcconnell worries about is getting primaried in

2020. in a state like kentucky where trump's approval rating among republicans is north of 80%, that's mitch mcconnell's main concern, the concern of a lot of republicans is they can see that trump is driving them off the cliff but they look at the short term and they fear not the general election in 2020, but they fear the potential that trump and a trump-backed candidate could primary them and beat them before they even got to november. is that fear, panic, coward he is, stupidity? it's all of those things, but it is the thing i think has been the governing dynamic in republican politics. it will change when they start to look at the math and the math changes enough that it costs them less to leave trump than it costs them to stay with trump in their judgment. >> coming up on "morning joe," from rewriting the tax code to a green new deal, some progressive policy ideas from democrats are roiling their new house majority

while drawing dividing lines between the party's presidential contenders. we have asked two of our friends noah rothman and eddie glaude to pour over the proposals and debate the merits. that conversation is next on "morning joe."

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do you have a specific on the tax rate? >> you know, you look at our tax rates back in the '60s and when you have a progressive tax rate system your tax rate, you know, let's say, from 0 to $75,000 may be 10% or 15%, et cetera, but once you get to like the tippee tops, on your 10 millionth particular sometimes you see tax rates as high as 60 or 70 percent. that doesn't mean all $10 million are taxed at an extremely high rate but it means as you climb up this ladder you should be contributing more.

>> those democratic congresswoman alexandria owe cass joe ortiz of new york calling for dramatic change to part of the tax code to help fund her plan to eliminate the use of fossil fuels, a so-called green new deal. it's one of the many issues being promoted by soops come incoming members of the new democratic majority in the house of representatives, it's also putting some pressure on the party's presidential hopefuls who are staking out ground right now among primary voters. about you how realistic are the policy pro else po? with us now we have associate editor of commentary magazine noah rothman and processor at princeton university eddie glaude jr. they started hashing out these issues on the show last week but we wanted to bring them back to dig even bigger. we are going to limit the discussion to three main issues, the frein new deal, income taxes revenue and medicare for all.

eddie, we will give you the floor first. what do progressives mean when they talk about a green new deal and is it even feasible? >> well, i can answer the first question -- the last question first. i think it's feasible. it has to be feasible in the sense that we are facing a crisis. if you look at the intergovernmental plan on climate change, a report on climate change, it let's us know that we are at a tipping point. that within the decade or so that we are going to experience irreversible tag to the planet. so something has to happen. so what the green new deal is all about is a set of policy frame works to allow us to think about how will we decarbonize the economy, how will we think about jobs in relation to a new economy that isn't exploiting the planet, how might we think about transitioning in a just way. what i think ocasio-cortez is doing is setting out a broad agenda to capture the myriad of forces that inform and shape the green movement in the country. let me just say this, it's not

new. tom friedman in 2007 used the phrase green new deal. we see it with regards to the afl-cio and their blue-green alliance. we saw it with regards to nader. we see it with snide. so part of what we're hearing underneath all of this conversation is an attempt to really change the page, to turn the page here. >> but, eddie, let me ask you, it's a follow-up question, i actually talked about it in a book i wrote in 2009 and didn't use the words a green new deal but said that we needed to revolutionize alternative sources of energy, but what we've seen time and again is that there is a trigger point and the trigger point comes when it starts to cost working class voters, working class consumers, more money. we saw it actually in the riots across france over the past month. wouldn't that happen here as well? wouldn't working class americans, wouldn't consumers

revolt against paying higher taxes and higher energy prices? >> i'm not sure that's the case, joe. i think if we make the argument that we are all stewards of the planet, if we make the argument that this is not just simply a question for tree huggers, but it's really about revising and reconceptualizing our economy so that it's sustainable over time for our children and our children's children, that it's in my interest and your interest and the interest of your grandchildren that we address this problem. if not it's irreversible. we can have differences as democrats and republicans, progressives and conservatives, but if we don't have a plnt those differences don't matter. so i think if we present the argument correctly, i don't think that we would see a revolt among every day ordinary folks. >> noah, what's wrong with the green new deal, especially when you see the cost of fossil fuels, not only to our planet, but also to our foreign policy over the past 40 years? >> i think eddie summed up what the philosophy behind this

proposal is, but there are concrete set of proposals that are addressed, particularly in the draft resolution to create a green new deal committee, among them are shuttering every fossil fuel plant in the country, eliminating c02 emissions, a job guarantee for the displaced and exporting this technological revolution around the globe all within the space of ten years. whether you think those proposals are feasible or not they are certainly ambitious. the proposal calls for massive investment to fund that. we don't really know what that means, but at one point it says even a trillion dollars has been criticized about i climate experts as wholly inadequate, suggesting that it idealizes a kind of post income tax financing of this sort of thing, a deficit financing and it says that the fed will create credit for these proposals. that to me is more than a little ambiguous and it also discounts on two occasions the efforts to

incentivize private sector efforts to reduce climate emissions. it says that that won't work. i don't know if we have the graphic, but i think that's actually disparaging of the private sector's efforts to create a reduced carbon footprint in the united states in 2017 the u.s. carbon emissions declined so a 67-year low. power generation has cut emissions by 28% since 2005 and in this century nine times -- >> let me stop you right there because this is an important -- eddie, we don't have a whole lot of time on this because we have two other issues we want to get to, but this is so critical. even if the united states pushes forward with a, quote, new green deal, as noah said, this is actually something the united states of america has done quite well. we have reduced our carbon footprint through the years. we have actually succeeded in becoming cleaner.

how does that impact what's happening in china, what's happening in india, what's happening across the world with the world's biggest polluters? >> right, i think we can have an impact on these other actors, but i think we could control what we can control, joe. and the question -- the question that we have to ask ourselves as we pat ourselves on the back about reducing our carbon input, is it enough to actually address the crisis? so on the one hand we have to assume that what we're doing currently is sufficient in relation to the scale of the crisis. i doubt that claim. if it isn't then we need to do more. it seems to me as the united states we should be leading the way in this regard. so the first thing i would say is that you cannot stipulate to the claim, i think, at least i won't stipulate to the claim that market-based solutions will be sufficient to address the nature of the crisis. we need something larger, something on a much grander scale and the united states can lead the way in this regard. >> all right. so, eddie, i want to ask you how are we going to pay for it, but

i'm going to start by saying when the gop and congress propose a tax cut plan we on the show asked how do you pay for it and they say it will pay for itself. of course it nt did. of course it won't. let's talk about this. assuming these investments are worth making, how do we come with the money and some people are saying let's have high tax rates again, you know, 70% perhaps, so what's the best way to pay for this in your opinion? >> i think it's a combination of things. it could be raising the marginal tax rate as representative owe kcass joe cortez said. >> 70%. >> yes, 70%. the point that we have to kind of acknowledge here is that the policy landscape is shifting, joe. >> to a 70% tax rate? for people in new york after you add 70% -- hold on -- after you add 70% on to what new york city taxes, on to what new york state taxes, my god, for that for

people who live in california you are talking about 85%, 89% tax rate. >> wait. wait. a tax rate of 70% on the top dollar of the richest people, not their entire income, not for everybody. >> exactly. >> go on, he had. he. >> part of what i'm saying is that there is a shift in the policy landscape. it used to be the case that since reagan's election in 1980 that we have had a policy landscape that emphasized deregulation, privatization, cutting corporate tax rates, eroding the social protection, small government and the like. what we are witnessing is a shift in that landscape and so the idea that we can begin to think about increasing the marginal tax rate is now something that's plausible and feasible. why? because we are facing a crisis. and the request he we have to ask ourselves, is our commitment to market-based solution sufficient to respond to the crisis?

is our selfishness because part of what i want to get at is what are the moral values driving the policy initiative? what do you stand for? what kind of human beings do we want to be? what kind of country do we want to be? so i think these policies whether it's the green new deal, whether it's medicare for all -- i'm go on and on. go ahead. i'm sorry. >> one part of that platform i do like quite a bit, taking on big ag, that would be incredible for not only the environment, but for local communities that have been taken over by these factory farms and just in terms of our morality with animals and actually challenging. we look at small local level farming is cleaner and the way animals are treated, it's just so much better for our entire environment. >> eddie, unfortunately i have to challenge your premise here. it is the fact of the matter is that the market economy is the moral innovator behind our climate solutions. >> what? >> yeah, on two different occasions. the reason why we have reduced

carbon footprint in this country is innovation. the technological sector has created smart thermostats and market forces have created the incentive to buy them. we have created market forces that have made natural gas, clean burning natural gas ubiquitous because of technology like hydraulic fracturing. >> does government investment have anything to do with that? >> a little bit. but what alexandria owe cass kwloe cortez is talking about is a small amount of time. the ten millionth dollar is about 16,000 people. the estimate from the tax policy center is you can get $720 billion over ten years from that. that doesn't cover the cost of one year. >> cut defense spending. this year democrats and republicans voted for $1.5 trillion more in defense spending whereas doing that that's a symbolic gesture against the highest earners in the country. >> let's stipulate to the claim that it's difficult to pay for t i will stipulate to that. but can we agree on some

baseline things? one, that we shouldn't stand by and let the planet collapse. >> and we are not. we are the world leader in carbon emissions, nine times this century we have led the two recalled in reduced carbon emissions. >> yet the reports continue to come out. >> you cannot say we have to do something and then ignore what we're doing. >> i'm not ignoring what we're doing, i'm just saying it's not sufficient. >> let me ask you, noah, the united states -- patting myself on the back, i'm just stating facts just like i do when i talk about how the number of illegal immigrants coming to america has dropped over the past decade, carbon emissions, we are improving, but if we are talking about a global problem, which we are, then certainly we have to figure out a way to bring china in on this, to bring, again, as i said, india and other major

polluters in on this. would you, noah, support president trump once again engaging in the paris accords? >> we are meeting quite a few of our paris agreements, actually, even though we are still in this agreement until 2020. >> i'm asking, though, would you support the united states becoming involved in that process again so we would be able to sit at the table with china, with india, with other polluters and move them towards goals that actually would -- would actually improve the quality of life and slow down climate change? >> i think it is absolutely imperative for the united states to engage in the world on this issues and lead on the two recalled in these issues cla i recall in a diplomatic format, but the way in which you demonstrate to the world that you can care for your environment and have economic growth, too, is to incentivize economic growth. you get the environment that you pay for and particularly in the work done by national bureau of economic research, gene grossman

and alan krueger they demonstrate that economic growth and individual purchasing power are key to ensuring that you don't have a conflict between growth and natural disasters, environmental disasters. >> what's the answer -- >> they have these disasters as a result. >> what's the answer on paris? >> i think paris was a toothless agreement and the demonstration is the fact that the eu with china and india are leading last year in 2017, rather, the emissions increases. the eu is signatory to this agreement and yet places like spain had a 44% increase in their carbon footprint, the united states by contrast is still reducing it's carbon emissions footprint, suggesting that paris is not the incentive here, it is other forces, markets forces. >> eddie, i've long believed that the united states has led, has led by example at times and when the united states leads by example others follow. we can in talks with china and

india and spain and the eu and other countries there can be length analo linkage if we're involved in paris. if we are not involved in pairs how do we have any moral authority to agree. if we double down, be even more aggressive with regards to how we respond to climate change, we can be more of a leader. let me just say this really quickly. we have to answer the question, what do we value? we have to understand that over the course of the last few decades everyday ordinary people have fallen behind. they're struggling to keep their noses above water that is rising. our only problem is not donald trump. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. the problem is the fact we are too comfortable pursuing our own self-interest and we've give be up on the nature of the public good. the question is, who are we as a country? when nancy pelosi says the wall is an immorality, that's one

question. the question is who do we take ourselves to be? i want to suggest that this unabiding faith in the market as a solution to problems that confront us as a country has put us right here in this place. so we're at an inflection point. where are we going to go? what pathway will we choose? >> let's get -- go ahead. >> i'm sorry, i can't argue with that because it was so passionate. i agree with all of it with the exception of the fact that the data suggests -- what i've demonstrated. anything but faith. there's a few data points that suggest what we're seeing is real innovation, real change. the kind of stuff that people who are frustrated with this should see as a good thing. >> we've got to leave it there. but noah, eddie glaude, let's continue that conversation. let me just -- to channel harold ford jr. here, i think your both right. i think you're both right. because i do agree that market

forces have to have a role. in creating a new way foofrd. and a new energy revolution. but at the same time, we can't expect market forces alone to take care of that. the government is going to have to be involved. there needs to be a public and private partnership. let's get you all back and we can discuss what that might look like in the coming weeks. the trump administration fires back at apple for blaming its revenue shortfall on the dispute with china. china discover card. hi, i'm just looking at my account, and i've got all this extra cash back. yep. that's your cashback match. only discover will automatically match all the cash back new cardmembers earn at the end of their first year. you matched everything i earned this year? yeah. whoo! more money! more money! it's all very exciting. i'm going to spread the news! spread it wide! it's cashback match people!

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yes, absolutely. everything you want. one low price. td ameritrade. ♪ i think we're doing very well. china's paying us tremendous tariffs. we're getting billions and billions of dollars of money pouring into the treasury of the united states which in history we've never gotten from china. >> one more fact check of the president this morning. the united states does not send china a bill for the cost of those tariffs. the president knows that. my gosh, he should know that. because freshman high school student in economics knows that. those costs are of course passed on to american importers and then of course, most importantly, passed on to you. let's bring in cnbc's sara eisen. the u.s. and china are kicking

off talks today, trying to end this ongoing trade war. what can we expect to come out of the meeting? is an agreement even possible? >> it's possible but it's hard to predict. the meeting that's happening this week in beijing, it's sort of a midlevel meeting. it's at the vice ministerial level. that means the number two in the trade representative. the next step would be to send u.s. trade rep robert lighthizer, potentially treasury secretary mnuchin. there's also some reason for optimism. this morning, "the post" is reporting that president trump will be meeting with china's vice president in davos at the world economic forum in just a few weeks. good thing that the talks are happening. very difficult to predict. you just played a sound bite of president trump. the u.s. is still coming at this from a position of strength. where president trump and the administration, and we just got

confirmation on this from u.s. commerce secretary, see this as hurting china a lot more than the united states. while that could be true, there's growing evidence, joe, that this is hurting the united states as well. we're getting some manufacturing numbers that are coming in a lot weaker than expected. we just got that very high-profile profit and sales warning from apple. fedex also issued a warning that the weakness in china and abroad as a result of the trade war and both companies specifically mention the trade war is hurting their business. so it is increasingly hurting the u.s. though the trump administration is approaching these talks as if china is in the weak position. they need to make the deal. will bu willburt ross just telling us it's hurting the ability to create jobs. so the pressure is on. the deadline is for march. if they don't make a deal, those tariff rates are going to go up. >> all right. cnbc's sara eisen, thank you so

much. greatly appreciate it as always. nick, what are your final thoughts? >> this really is a "seinfeld" shutdown. there is almost nobody in congress who is against having a secure border and almost no one in congress against having some kind of barrier on the border. this is all about politics and about trump and the wall. if he is denying the wall, it is the end of his presidency in a certain sense. if he gets it, it actually helps him politically. >> elise jordan, final thoughts? >> i'm watching to see what will happen with the syria drawdown. john bolton abroad talking completely differently from donald trump and outlining a policy that's completely different from what donald trump said he was doing a month ago. he said a full drawdown in syria by january 18th. does not look like that is going to happen. just makes you wonder who really is calling the shots at the top. >> all right. elise jordan and nick, thank you so much. we appreciate it.

we thank you for watching "morning joe" this morning. we'll see you tomorrow. right now, stay tuned, stephanie ruhle continues with the news. >> thanks so much, joe. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. very excited to be back with you this morning. there are certainly a lot to cover. starting with walled off. the president negotiating with himself. going from a concrete wall to a steel barrier. from mexico paying for it to the u.s. taxpayer. the democrats are standing firm with their priority to reopen the u.s. government. >> this president does not want border security, he wants border theater. >> how about some market mania. we're keeping a close eye on the numbers as u.s. trade talks with china are picking back up today. this comes just after friday's huge jobs number. the big question everyone is asking, what do voters actually want. we have a great team headed across the country as the top contenders