"hardball kwaetsz starts now. false alarm? let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. two hours from now president trump will address the country in prime time from the oval office for the first time in his presidency. the power of the bully pull president trump object steroids, the ability to communicate directly with the amain r

marecon people without fact checkers and he will sway the american people on what he says is a national security crisis at our border with mexico and make political case for building a wall. the presidential primetime address has come to be used to brief the country during times of major national crisis, epitmized by president kennedy's somber address during the cuban missal crisis. >> this government, as promised, has maintained the closest surveillance of the soviet military build up on the island of cuba. the purpose of these bases can be none other than to provide oo nuclear strike capability against the western hemisphere. >> and recent presidents have continued the primetime tradition. >> just two hours ago allied air forces began an attack on

military targets in iraq and kuwait. these attacks continue as i speak. >> good evening. earlier today i ordered america's armed forces to strike military and security targets in iraq. >> today our nation saw eval, the very worst of human nature and we responded with the best of america. tonight i can report to the american people and the world that the united states has conducted an operation that killed o-osama bin laden. >> this president now finds himself in a crisis of his own making. as the partial government shutdown is in it's 18th day amid trump's stand off with congressional democrats on one side and rush limbaugh on the other, tonight's speech is the latest gambit for a president looking for a way out. the address could lay the groundwork for declaring a national emergency writing trump hopes to use his bully pull

president trump to convince vote that situation at the border is dangerous enough to warrant building a wall. and cia director and defense secretary under president obama. does this seem justified to you? discussion of a national emergency over a political fight over whether to build a wall. mr. secretary? >> well, as your program began, we saw past presidents use that very powerful forum in the oval office to address the american people either on major policy decisions or major crisis. in this instance i think the president is yoozing this moment to try to bail himself out of a political crisis and i don't think it's going to work. i think it's a misuse of the power of the presidency.

to try to basically get himself out of a political boxes that he created. and it's not going to work. >> you know my brother was at holy cross at the time of the cuban missile crisis and the president's address was so powerful and the moment of a possible nuclear war so terrified that the people fearing the end of the earth. you're at santa clara. i imagine your mmry of the kennedy incident was searing. >> i will never forget that moment. because i was in rotc, had just gotten my commission and expected to be called up any moment and when you listen on the presidents of the united states at that time, there was a real sense that we were on the brink of war. >> let's talk about the politics. the speaker of the house, nancy pelosi, is tough as nails. she's not going to negotiate trump over a dollar.

she said building of a wall would be an immorality. rush limbaugh is saying he will bring down the trump constituency, down to nothing, if the president doesn't build this wall. is this simply the alternative? he can't beat nancy pelosi or rush limbaugh, so he's going to exploit this unusual power of a president simply by making a statement. we're in big trouble right now. that's what it looks like he's going to do. >> look, you and i both know there is no justification for closing the federal government. there just isn't. whether it's war or crisis. there's no reason we ought to be closing parts of the federal government the way we are. this president, obviously is taking the blame for that. he asked to take the blame for it. said he was proud to shut the

government down and now he's trying to argue that somehow the crisis on the border justifies that he keeps the government shut and the earality is most people understand that if you've got crisis, then you ought to put the government back to work, especially homeland security, which is closed right now. this is the agency that's responsible for border security. why in god's name would you keep the government shut down if in fact there's a crisis? so his arguments are oxy morons. they're contradictions and they're not working and tonight it's not gouing to work either. >> i'm so glad we got to hear yur voice tonight. thank you, sir. president trump's surrogates have been arguing there's an emergency at the border and here's vice president pence. >> with regard to terrorists, we've seen more than 4,000 known or suspected terrorists attempt to come in through various means.

but on the southern border. >> that is a misleading claim that's been fact checked as i believe you're aware. >> it is from all ports of entree. but on the southern border last year alone 3,000 special interest aliens were apprehended trying to come into our country. >> here's a fact check. nearly every immigrant from a country outside the western hemisphere is classified as a special interest alien, does not mean they're on terrorist data bases. someone in the eastern part of the world had come from asia or europe, or europe, they would be considered special situation. not a terrorist watch list person. this is an abuse of the presidential power over information. joining us right now is national political reporter for the "washington post." and i want to talk to you.

explain why the president's using these fear numbers. >> so it will be interesting to see if he even uses numbers tonight. he may want to stay away from him because that has been undercutting his argument so much. first heard 4,000 known or suspected terrorists that border. even the white house is saying sarah sanders shouldn't have said that. and we found there are only six migrants who came through the sugtdern border who were on one of those watch lists. when you talk about special interest aliens, it is immigrants from outside the western hemisphere who happen to be on the southern border. they're also flagged as a special interest alien because of their travel pat nch. but it's a much lower bar and being a known or suspected tarbrist is much lower than being awrested. i spoke to someone today who said we're missing the forests or the trees because really most important number is zeer eo.

zero immigrants have been arrested in recent history on terrorism related charges. so if he tries to conflate any of that tonight, just remember that one point. >> you deal with him all the time but here's the question. hasn't he got -- fired all the people in the oval office, everyone in his circle who questioned him on these crazy numbers? i think of people like the itsic reitary of defense, mattis, people who gave him the actual figures and information of what's happening in reality, they're all gone. nobody in the oval office says mr. president, you got to start straightening out those numbers. so have we any confidence he has a fact checker of his own? >> sometimes the truth is standing right in front of you if you're a reporter and if you look at that picture of vice president pence sitting next to him a hardline conservative, office of management and budget,

all reiterating this idea of a crisis at the border, echoing the president. that's the message coming out and if there's anyone raising their hand in descent, they're not making it public and it's hard to figure out who, if anyone is quarrelling with the president at this time. >> i just got back from trip to cuba. i agreed to go there because the castro brothers are officially out of power. but there will be a document about the number of teachers leaving the country. and unless you quote from that document, you get in big trouble. you have to quote the number. this is what it sounds like when you tell me they're all quoting the same numbers. >> reporter: at this time is they have to set a predicate for possible executive action. if they take executive action and call a national emergency on the border and try to start building a wall with the army core of engineer, what's going to happen? immediately challenged in court.

so they've been talking to officials inside saying there needs to be steps taken to explain the emergency situation if you are going to call an emergency. >> mr. trump says past presidents told him they agree with him on the need for a border wall. all of those four presidents living denied it and here's vice president pence responding to that denial today. >> well, you -- i know the president has said that was his impression from previous administrations, previous presidents. i know i've seen clips of previous presidents talking about the importance of border security, the importance of addressing the issue of illegal immigration. honestly the american people want us to address this issue. >> well, that's not real ea answering the question because you were going to brief off the it record. but from the point of view from the reporters, there was a lot

of skepticism about these numbers. that's not breaking ground rules. they said you have a credibility problem. >> well, sure, there's a credibility problem on the three prongs. they are trying to use tonight to defend whatever they push forward, whether that's a prolonged government shutdown or a national emergency and so far all approach has hit a wall. i try not to use that word. >> robert, is pt that bothering the president that he can't find anybody on television, like right here, saying what he's saying? he's having a hard time finding backers these days. >> reporter: because unpart the data doesn't support the argument. if you look at the "washington post" fact checker and the republicans have held power for two years and it's only now at the dawn of divided government that they're choosing to describe a crisis atmosphere. of course they describe

crisis-like moments at the border over the last two years. but this is a political stand off as much as it is about anything else. >> they go all the way or just talk around it, robert. is it bill shine? jared kushner? who said it's time to basically shoot the moon. we can't beat nancy pelosi in the congress, we kaenlt beat rush bah. so we got to go somewhere else. let's go to the national emergency. >> so often in this white house we're looking for the person whispering in the president's ear but then you realize the it person who comes up with these ideas is the president himself. cornered politically, doesn't have an out, and still trying to signal ooh to his base he can still get something. this is what he started to pursue as an idea over the past

week. >> is anybody in the white house able to stand up to the president and say these numbers oare wacko? >> the only numbers that were really false was saying 4,000 came across the southwest border. now they're piecing together the numbers they want. >> that's the essential argument of why we have a national crisis. if that's not drew, then we're not in a national crisis. >> you and i can know that. they're trying to make the case we're in unprecedented territory. >> you have a tough opponent named nancy pelosi and he has people on the right of him he's afraid of. up next is republican support for the president's operation shutting down? and the chairman of the house judiciary committee is coming here. he called the tlelt dangerous and called the president's behavior like that of a tyrant.

we're going to hear a lot from him. and the latest developments. and they shed all kinds of light on the case. they didn't redact what they thought they did. this is "hardball." this is "hardball. what?! -welcome. -[ gasps ] a bigger room?! -how many of you use car insurance? -oh. -well, what if i showed you this? -[ laughing ] ho-ho-ho! -wow. -it's a computer. -we compare rates to help you get the price and coverage that's right for you. -that's amazing! the only thing that would make this better is if my mom were here. what?! an unexpected ending!

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that simplify your experience. my name is mike, i'm in product development at comcast. we're working to make things simple, easy and awesome. ♪ welcome back to "hardball." yesterday house democratic caucus chair tweeted there's a national emergency in america and that's individual one, which is the term used to refer to president trump in michael cohen's court papers. the president has said and in fact we're facing a national crisis, maybe a national emergency. he may demand expansive powers outside the normal role of a president. what to you make of it? >> there is no national

emergency at the border. it's part of donald trump's efforts to find a lifeline to get out of this reckless shutdown he's caused and now is holding the american people hostage. the it number of borders is at one of its lowest levels in about two decades. the united states congress in a bipartisan way over the last 10 or so years has significantly increased funding for border security significantly increased the number of personnel who are at our border and we're willing to do more, we're just not willing to acweesto a government shutdown and pay a $5 billion ransom. >> they're going to watch him without a fact checker, without a filter just pushing his line. what do you want to warn them about as they watch him. >> we're concerned he's going to try to fool the american people

into something that would be extra-constitutional in terms of making a declaration to fulfill a political promise. this is what it's all about at the end of the day. he promised he was going to build a border wall and that mekts co was going to pay for it. it's clear the great deal maker has failed to convince mexico to pay for it. the republicans have controlled the house, the senate and the presidency, yet no border wall. and now because of trump's inability to successfully deliver on that political promise, he's going to stand before the american people and makeup the notion there's a national emergency. >> suppose he edemands expanded powersend to? >> i think we'll be in conversation to make sure every available legal avenue that this is decided per art three of the

constitution and the judges will decide he does not have this ability to unilaterally declare a national emergency and spend billions to get something he could not get done through the normal legislative process. >> can you stop him from shifting the money? can you stop him in the act? >> i think you will see movement for injungtive relief and ultimately perhaps the supreme court will have to make that decision. >> are you behind nancy pelosi's decision that building the wall is an immorality? >> i agree with how she's characterized where we are. it's impractical, imooral. >> i don't remember truman and

the coal strike but i can sure remember kennedy coming before the country and saying we may be at nuclear war in a couple of hours. what's the president got in terms of grauv toss? is there smidgeon for him to use the primetime address on what is basically a partisan issue? >> not at all. the office does, as it should, but this particular occupant of that office has abandoned that with all of the chaos, crisis and confusion he's subjected the american people to unnecessarily the last two years. it's unfortunate he's going to try to utilize the opportunity to deliver a address from this hallowed office in order to appeal once again to the american people. >> the chairman of the democratic caucus, a man on the rise a purse on of great

interest to me politically. thank you, sir. a fellow democratic law maker that u.s. mexico border yesterday, they warned the president not usurp the office to get his wall. >> i expect the president to lie to the american people. why? because he has been lie thug marecon people and his spokes people continue lying to the american people. and we would circumvent the president making himself a king and a tyrant saying he can appropriate money without congress. that is perhaps the most dangerous thing he's talking about since becoming president. >> he is reportedly laying the groundwork for doing just that, demanding expansive powers. he over sees the committee. and articles of impeachment,

should they be needed. and last night on this show, u.s. congressman of california said if the president declares an emergency to build his wall, it could be an impeachable ofence. >> for a president to arbitrarily take billions ear marked for national defense and use it for a wall, would that be an art canical? >> it could be if hissed avers told him it's illegal and he did it anyway and put military at risk of committing federal crimes. that's a pretty significant obligation to protect military folks as well. and mr. chairman, what do you make of what mr. lou said? what's your view of a president who uses a national emergency declaration to grab power? >> it's very wrong. it's an abuse of power to try to

grab power, for the president to try to circumvent congress's power of the purse. it's in the service of a lie. the president is lying to the american people about a national emergency. there is no emergency. the illegal crossings are way down by all accounts. i was at the border yesterday and we went to the alamo border station. there was nobody there. they're not being inundated. the only people coming to the border at the south are people who want political asylum and that has nothing to do with the wall. they're saying here i am. give me asylum. so it's in the serve oofs lie and the president must not be permitted to declare a false emergency and try to circumvent the power of congress. >> would this be a high crime if he does so? >> it might. but the real issue is we cannot

permit it to happen. i think the courts will likely throw it out quickly. again it's entirely a lie only to get diminishing band of followers and true believers to be frightened and to stay aboard. >> i get back to the question. your colleague from new york. can the congress through the courts injoin the president, stop him from taking $4 billion and building a wall with it? can you stop him in the act? >> i think the odds are very high he can be stopped in court. i think a lot of people have stapding to sue. the governors, local mayors, land owners. >> does congress have standing? >> i think the house would have standing. i'm not sure but i think we would have standing. >> thank you so much.

chairman of the house judiciary. lawyers for paul manafort have responded to the special counsel's allegations that he lied to investigators. and failed to adequately redact the sensitive portions of the document. those sections show prosecutors have alleged manafort lied about his contacts with a russian business partner who has been linked to russian intelligence, specifically prosecutors say mr. manafort lied about sharing polling data with mr. killmnik. and manafort conceded he may have discussed a ukrain peace plan on more than one occasion. they appear to have taken place at more than one time in the campaign. this is right in the middle of our politics, manafort's doing business and talking about things like polling in the presidential election.

it just seems like it's so intermingled, the whole thing. >> i agree. this is more evidence of the intermingling of the trump campaign and the russian government efforts to help the trump campaign. this is more evidence of that. and seems quite clear the president keeps saying no collusion and it's quite clear there was collusion and the question is how far it went. it was cleary an effort to defraud the american people of an honest election. the question is was the president part of the conspiracy as his associates were? and we have to protect the integrity of the mueller investigation. he knows a lot more than we edo at this point. we have to protect that against white house interference so we can get to the bottom of this and find out exactly to what extent was or was not involved

in what was clearly a criminal conspiracy to defraud the american people. >> we were getting good reporting that report was coming as soon as february. do you have any information in that direction or otherwise? >> i do not. i watch msnbc to try figure out when the report's going to come. >> so do i. >> but i don't really know. we have to protect the mueller investigation from the attempts by the administration to interfere with it and we veto see where the facts lead and then act on that. >> congressman of new york, chairman of the house judiciary committee, thanks. is support for president trump's wall eroding? anyway, the white house is scrambling to stem party defections as the fight deteriorates daily. this is not a fight of. this is not a fight of fundme go

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♪ i may declare a national emergency, depending on what's going to happen over the next few days. >> you don't need congressional approval to build a wall? >> no, we can declare a national emergency. we can do it. >> absolutely. before donald trump the

republican party stood for small government and less intervention in our lives. this one would seem to upend that notion, don't you think? and now some see it as a better alternative than the ongoing shutdown. and support for the it shutdown, however, is now eroding. with 15 to 25 moderate house members expressing a declisire vote with democrats to put the government back to work again. republicans are willing to break with decades old republican orthodox to support a potential emergency declaration over the wall to save faces. i'm joined by john kasich, the out going governor of ohio. i've known what your side was, i've known it all these years. less government, more individual freedom. that has been a regan doctrine going back to lincoln and yet, the only thing people have

against lincoln is start arresting people without judicial reason and here's a president talking about expanding his power to take $4 billion away from the defense department and building a wall with it. what do you make of that use of presidential power? >> i don't think that's what's going to happen here. i could be wrong. they don't send me missions what they're going to do look, you and i have seen many shutdowns. you know i was involved in one in 1995 and 1996 and what it gets down to is both sides have to say there's a willingness to reach some kind of agreement. i've heard your previous guest talk about no emergency at the border. there may not be unless you're a kid sleeping in one of those shelters, sleeping on the floor

with sheet of plastic over you. reports these kids are getting sick. moms are upset. fact of the matter is let's get this resolved and do comprehensive immigration reform. let's have a guest worker program and chris, wea've got t invest security and economic programs for our neighbors. we've got to get those countries stabilized to work with them. that's what we got to do. >> i don't hear that from this administration. >> i know, i know. >> i don't hear stop illegal hiring, people been here 30 years that there really americans now and letting them become official amare cancons. there's no openness to that kind of a compromise. >> they're going to lose some republicans because the vote is going to be do you want to open up part of the government? of course you're going to vote to do that. they can't sustain that. if the president was smart, he'd

stop putting himself in the corner because at the end there's going to be a deal. i don't know they'll ever call it a wall. maybe they'll say we spend more money because i got to tell you this people want the border to be protected but that's not good enough. we can't solve all these problems right at the border. a lot of these emanate in places far away from the border. >> he's got nancy pelosi, tough as nails. >> she is. >> she says it's an immorality to build this wall. rush limbaugh and the world of fox say if this president doesn't build the wall he's finished politically. that's the situation the right and left have put this president in. now he's going to shoot the moon with this national declaration thing. >> i can remember when bill clinton was up at the white house saying the republicans are taking away money for the

environment and education. we're saying you're going to bankrupt the country. and some of them came to me and we said here's the peramteres for how we can get something done and we got balanced budget, the economy was growing. so all these people locking themselves in and the president's got to get off the wall thing. the does -- life doesn't work that way. not just politics. life. >> governor, when will the republicans be given an alternative that takes them back to the idea of small government, individual response lkt and friedm and not big government take overs of land and imminent domain? you? >> i can tell you this though if the republican party doesn't wake up, okay -- the democrats are way out to the left right now. but if the republicans don't do wake up, they haven't had a new idea since jack kemp and john kasich.

you don't have ideas in politics, you can't make it. you know that. and they've been burying their heads in the sand. >> i love new hampshire and you're going there. i swear you're going to new hampshire next year. just a thought. >> good. that's a prediction on your part. you thought alabama was going to beat clemson last night. i don't know what's going to happen in the future. >> all i care about is the eagles anyway. up against new orleans. up tonight will america buy, that's his word, his mesening that there's an emergency on our border? emergency on our border so, i have this recurring dream. i'm 85 years old in a job where

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♪ welcome back to "hardball." when the president talks from

the bully pullpit. he'll lend an emergency to a long-time partisan issue. and white house reporter for radio and for a "washington post." howard, i want you to start on this. this is an historic question. i'm a bit older than you, not lot and i remember the cuban missile crisis and to me that's the gold standard for when the american president has to talk to the american people and say this is frighting business and you have to know about it. >> you know the old phrase, history repeats itself first as tragedy and then as farce. this is a farce of a national emergency. and it's being done for political purposes. they're to shore up the president's base, to take attention away from whatever bob mueller's doing today, to try to

gain the initiative with democrats after he's ponted himself into it a negotiating corner and so forlgt. and and that's what it -- if anything he's laying a predicate, i guess for the idea he will declare a national emergency and proof is going to be that he had a speech about how there was a national emergency. >> let's get back to the initial thought before the national big explosion. is this all about getting his number from around 40 to 48? is this to move up the thing, always up to 40 something and back again to 40 and up to something and down a 40? is that what this is about? >> i don't think this is about expanding. i think it's making sure what he has doesn't go away. for whatever reason he seems to be really concerned if he's thought of not keeping the promise, even though the promise

was -- he is concerned that his base will turn on him and say you promised us a wall. we don't have a wall mp >> so the president of the united states is a dido head. what rush limbaugh calls his people who do everything he says >> i think it's about keeping rush limbaugh, anne coulter and the others from criticizing him. we've been down this road before. remember when the senate passed the bill and democrats went along with the bill that gave him $25 million in exchange for dreamers and he was going to go for it and it was scuttled. and here we are with the president painting himself in to a corner over a wall, which we learn was a rhetorical device to talk about immigration. he's going to use the imnens of the oval office

>> because rush limbaugh can get 10 million on a good day to listen to him. he's a fireball. but that's 1/3 of 1%. what are we talking about? it's not t it's the majority of the american people. >> and he's not been about reaching out to the majority. >> that's how being a media creation himself -- i'm talking about the president as a media creation himself this is how he understands politics. he understands it as tribal chieftens like rush limbaugh on the media and he thinks it's what politics is all about. >> wait a minute. john wayne, who was the ultimate iconic figure in my generation, the superstar, mr. tough guy. he said giving away the panama canal to the panamanians was a good thing and he had the guts to say it's the smart move and

the american thing to do. rush limbaugh, if he stood for anything besides audience, he would say let's move on here. this isn't helping. >> john wayne stood for something. he had conviction. he had things he believed in and as we've seen time and time again. >> he really was very positive about what america stands for. a number of republicans accuse president obama of acting outside his legal authority for orders he issued from the oval office. here they go. >> it's an unbelievable overreach. a matter of tremendous import and it's an affront to the legislative process. >> his actions violated the rule of law in the united states constitution. you don't have to take my fwrurd it. we have all kinds of law professors to say -- >> this is the most lawless

administration we've seen and this president routinely disregards the it law, the constitution, the congress. >> we did not elect a dictator, we elected a president. >> i think that was to prosecute without documents. >> and now you have someone saying he'll declare a national emergency and he doesn't need congress to use these funds and the question is will republicans balk at that and to a certain extent they have started to say that's a bridge too far, maybe a wall too far. he cannot do the national emergency powers. they want security at the border but they don't want that. but if president trump basically says i'm calling your bluff, republicans. are you real ea going to come out against me, i don't know what happens there. >> i'm interested not so much in

what the president says, although that's interesting as matter of theater if nothing else, as to what epeople like mitch mcconnell have to say about this. will republican senators who have some concern for their own ability to appropriate funds say wait a minute, we're not down with you doing it this authoritarian matter. year not down with that. i think the silence is going to be thundering from them later on tonight. i bet you. >> somebody in the white house identifying themselves said we have no idea how this is going to end. what an honest statement. up next these people tell me something. t these people tell me something. here we go! discover. hi. i like your card. i love all the cashback and security features, but i'm not going to pay an annual fee. i'm just not going to do it! okay. okay? discover has no annual fee on any of our cards. so it wasn't my tough guy act? no. we just don't have any annual fees. that's a relief.

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we're back with the "hardball" round table. tell me something i don't know. >> today is the day that more than a million florida residents that had felony convictions get their righting to vote. >> who did that? >> i think people have been -- activists have been working on this for years to get done and now it's done. >> is this national momentum to get people who have paid their debt to society to be allowed to vote again? >> i think so. you see a lot of these movements in other states. >> so in arizona mark kelly is seriously -- >> husband of -- >> husband of gabby giffords.

he's seriously considering running for senate and if he gets in the race, that will make three democrats are vying to run in 2020. >> it looks more and more a blueish state. >> and a state donald trump will need in 2020. >> as laungs long as we're talking about politics and elections. recent studies have known we thought the russian interference was bad in 2016 and the doug jones in alabama was something, that's nothing compared to what's going to happen in 2020. because what's getting involved is not just people but machine. machine learning and art filgszficial intelligence are going to take over. that's where we're headed. the problem is it's difficult for journalism to keep up with it. >> thank you.

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let me finish tonight with the missing link in the trump wall. the link is the number one reason why the people cross the u.s./mexican border without authority, the reason people all over the world cross countries

between poor and wealthy countries. the reason is a better life. that's the reason you see whole families racesing across from mexico, to enter a country where they expect to get a job and build a life. president trump talks about the criminal gang, drug smuggling, terrorism. he doesn't talk about the overwhelming reason people violate our immigration laws to enter our country. yet, if they want to stop the flow of immigrants coming through illegally, the primary target should be illegal hiring. the exploitation of reece ntdly arrived undocumented workers. if you truly want to stop illegal immigration, kill the magnet that's driving it. will the president even speak a word about the reality of what drives illegal immigration. will he suggest a punishment for those employers who drive it?

why? is it to protect those who insist on cheap labor you can get from those whose main job is protecting people or is it more personal on his part? "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight on "all in". >> who's going to pay for the wall? >> a president trapped by his own wall speaks to the nation. >> who? >> and the democrats will respond. >> a wall is an immorality. >> rachel maddow on the president's self-imposed crisis. steve schmidt, nicole wallace and brian williams. plus what we know about what's actually happening at the border and today's bomb shell accidental revelation suggesting trump collusion with the russians.