longest government shutdown in history. what are you following with regards to that today? >> as we saw there, the people who were not getting paychecks for the first time, i was very moved by the story of iris, a customer service person in philadelphia who was not taking the tags off her christmas presents in case that she needed to return them. and something we see again and again in these stories, these people are proud of their jobs. it's great to be reminded of that. and i saw a tsa worker saying it was unethical to be asked to work for free and i think a lot of cuss agree with that. >> absolutely. mike allen, thank you. >> that does it for us on this friday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy

daniels? >> prosecutors say trump directed illegal hush money to two women. >> when during the campaign i would say mexico's going to pay for it. obviously i never said this and i never meant they're going to write out a check. >> they may even write out a check by the time they see what happens. they may. >> mr. president, did you know paul manafort was sharing polling data from your campaign with the russians? >> no, i didn't know anything about it. nothing about it. >> so he denied knowing about the stormy daniels pay off. he denied knowing mexico would write a check for the wall and he did know that. and he denied knowing his campaign was sharing polling information with russia. it is friday. along with joe, willie and me, we have national affair analyst

and msnbc co-host, executive producer of showtime's "the circus," john heilemann, republican strategist and msnbc contributor rick tyler is with us as well. joe, this shutdown, it continues. it's getting painful. people are getting paychecks today with a beg fat zero on them. >> the government shutdown is an important story. we're going to be talking about that at length this morning, but i don't want any of us to lose sight of what's happening at the same time, what's simultaneously unfolding roight before our ver eyes. we're watching the political, ideological and moral collapse of my old party, the republican party. make no mistake, donald trump's amorality is driving this collapse but his republican allies on capitol hill and in

powerful positions across america are too eager and too willing to be his accomplices. take the new republican chairman of the judiciary committee. south carolina's lindsey graham. i've known lindsey for years. we came in together in congress in 1994 and lindsey was always considered to be one of the most genial, reasonable and measured members of congress. as a presidential congress in 2016, he routinely warned us of the moral rot that the election of donald trump as the party's nominee would bring to the republican party and he said that unhinged manhattan developer would destroy the gop if he were elected. well, lindsey was right. then. but now he's one of the administration's leading henchman in hatching plots to run rough shod over our nation's traditions and turn the party into a rudderless collection of

mini me donald trumps pap can you believe lindsey graham, a guy who along with me throughout the 1990s championed the power of checks and balances, then of course -- then against bill clinton, we always talked about article one and the constitution and being constitutionalists. well, now that same lindsey graham who actually followed john mccain's lead for so long is actually the republican who is using his position as senate chairman of the judiciary committee to encourage donald trump to declare a national emergency and illegally seize article i powers if he doesn't get his way on the border wall. think about that. it is illegal. it will be jooverturned by the supreme court of the united states and if lindsey doesn't know that, he shouldn't be in congress. it's that obvious.

the courts will overturn this because in the midst of the kind of negotiations that donald trump is going through with nancy pelosi, it's a first time that this spoiled, pampered brat, who inherited $200 million from his father and then blew through it, that brat has now grown up to be president of the united states and he's 72, 73, i don't know, how old is he? 73? i'll tell you, yesterday -- whoo. but anyway, this is the first time anybody has ever stood up to him. you know what that's called? that's called madisonian democracy. it's been the norm of this constitutional republic for 240 years. and that's just been a balance between two co-equal branches of government. but lindsey says it's not going donald's way so let's just declare a national emergency. we can rob money from people that are suffering in puerto

rico, we can rob money from people suffering in california. we can rob money from our military money and women, even though the armed services chairman has said that would be deplorable. it is truly deplorable. and if that's not bad enough, the iowa republican congressman steve king, a man who has long shared a mutual admiration with donald trump spoke his truth in declaring himself a white supremacist. in days past he would have immediately been censured and remor removed from the republican party. he's just mirroring the president's views after that deadly march in charlottesville. this morning steve king remains a member in good standing of the house and the republican party. you know, i could go on.

we only have three hours every morning. conservatives like me can on now watch and wait in horror to see the awful legacy and the moral destruction that donald trump is going to have on the party that i once loved and that he hijacked to win the white house. but i can tell you this today -- trump is leading this horror show but you know who i hold accountable? lindsey graham, mitch mcconnell, kevin mccarthy -- >> steve. >> steve king. and all the republicans on capitol hill that are ducking their heads. they are the co-conspirators, complicit by their action or, more importantly, by their silence. the party of lincoln and the party of reagan, they're suffering through a massive moral collapse. it is sad and it is dangerous for this country and i believe it is the beginning of the end of my old party.

willie. >> joe, well said. i think there are a lot of people, conservatives, not the ones you've talked about there but conservatives out in public life yesterday, writes ars and thinkers who have come out against the president declaring a national emergency and against steve king, prominent conservatives withdrawing their support and donating to the candidate who has announced a primary run against steve king. it's not happening in washington and capitol hill and you listed all the names but there are people like you and many other conservatives who standing up against what they've seen over the last couple of days. let's get right into this, though, joe. as mika mentioned, it's first missed pay day for federal workers and contractors who are either furloughed or not being paid in the government shutdown standoff. yesterday appropriation tests across the country, including in washington, chicago, detroit, new york, kentucky, dallas and

ogden, utah where the internal revenue service is one of the largest employers in that area and three quarters of the workforce is furloughed. the head of the fbi agents association said nearly 5,000 special agents, intelligence analyst, attorneys and professional staff are currently furloughed, results in reduced staffing for what they call critical functions that support field operations. there were a few more republican defections as the house approved two appropriations bill thursday. 12 republicans vote with the democrats to reopen the transportation department and housing and urban development, g while ten voted to restore food stamps and the fda. the administration has begun their effort to bypass congress.

president trump said yesterday he is leaning toward a national emergency. >> i have the absolute right to declare a national emergency. the lawyers have so advised me. i'm not prepared to do that yet, but if i have to i will. if this doesn't work out, probably i will do it. i would almost say definitely. >> so, joe, i'll let you tackle that one. i want to sprinkle in nbc news and others reporting that the president is looking at diverting disaster relief funds from people like california after the wildfires, puerto rico after rebuilding from the hurricane to divert funds to the wall. >> there's no doubt that donald

trump never understands that when he thinks out loud and says if i don't get my way in political negotiations, i'll just declare a national emergency. that does not fall under the act. one seriously doubts that if harry truman couldn't compel the steel industry to not strike at time of war, donald trump will not be able to declare a national emergency because he's not getting his way with nancy pelosi and chuck schumer. courts will chew that up and spit that out and people look lindsey graham will look like idiots. >> let's hope. joe, you're a lawyer, though a simple country lawyer you often say but i'm not. >> a dumb country lawyer. >> i hope that you're right. if you thought about the precedent and you thought about the history that you cite, truman, that there's good cause

to be hopeful that if the president does go ahead with this that the clourourts will s him. as you know, the courts have kang changed over time. independent hopeful we'll never have to test the courts offer th -- over this matter. in an obvious way that we're seeing trump abuse his power if he goes ahead with in in the way he suggests but take it a little bit further in this sense, all of the things that are bad about the notion of declaring a national emergency in this context are problematic in the extreme, but they're all the more so over the fact that the entire thing is built on a gargantuan lie, which is not merely is he usurping his power, going beyond the constitution, going beyond legislative mandate

and diverting funds from where people are suffering, puerto rico, california, other places, but the whole thing would be predicated on the notion that there is a national emergency on the border when of course there is not. when you start to see an executive -- >> that's critical. that's critical. what donald trump i guess doesn't understand, what his lawyers i guess don't understand is, yes, the supreme court deals with the law and interpreting the law. they also deal with facts. there are fact patterns that go along to every case. they apply the law to the facts. donald trump will say there's an emergency at the border. what's the emergency? >> the heroin coming across. they say to the solicitor johnson general 90% of the drugs coming across are coming through legal points of entry. >> we have a caravan coming. >> no, you don't have a caravan coming up, mr. solicitor general. that was just a farce to help

donald trump get elected and you all stopped talking about it the day after so that's not much of an emergency. >> illegal immigrants are streaming across the border at record rates. well, no, actually the facts show they're at a 20-year low right now. you're right, the fact patterns do not support any ruling that would uphold an emergency declaration. it will not happen. >> there's only one emergency, joe, right now and it's not a national emergency, it's a political emergency. i'll just say that when you see a chief executive invoking a totally made up national emergency in order to actually try to solve a political emergency and in this context divert resources, invoke this national emergency and potentially be deploying the military in its service, you are seeing the actions of an auou a

autocrat. that is the behavior if you saw it in the third world country, you would say that's the guy who runs the giunta, runs the dictatorship, who is instituting martial law. that's what we're seeing and itwhy it's so disturbing. >> many are saying if we see the collapse of democracy over time and the rise of autocrats in america, it won't be by somebody bringing tanks across the 14th street bridge, it won't be by junta seizing television stations, it will be by the continue erosion of madisonian

checks and balances, all for the expansion of an imperial presidency. that's where donald trump is trying to take america right now. and, mika, that's why we're seeing some conservatives actually speak up and speak out for good reason. >> and just pointing out as i bring it back down to, you know, ten feet versus 10,000 feet, there are people getting paychecks today with a zero on them for working two weeks. conservatives not in lock step you're talking about behind the president, joe, declaring a national emergency for the wall. "the wall street journal" editorial board writes it would strain the limits of his executive authority. "the national review" calls it another unwelcomed step in america's long walk.

telecommunication as congressman matt this morniornburg said i ad to using fund for anything else. and several republican senators spoke publicly against the idea. >> i don't want to see a declaration of national emergency. that's an action that would be taken in the most extreme circumstances. >> i advise against that. s that a bad precedent, even if the president's got authority to do it, i'd advise against it. >> tomorrow the national security emergency might be climate chang. so let's seize fossil fuel plants or something. >> susan del percio, there obviously are some people speaking out. i just want to step back and imagine the thoughts of people who live in puerto rico, who

have family there, hearing the president potentially moving disaster relief funds from places like puerto rico to build his wall that most people don't want. i mean, this is incredible at this point the way he's running over people with a lack of care or humanity. >> he's shown over and over that he doesn't have that humanity. and there is a real crisis at the border, withone that he cre. there are parents and children still separated. there are people who are not being processed properly because at point of entry seeking amnesty legally because this president wants to lessen the amount of judges there as a deterrent so people are basically in these horrible camps. there is a crisis for millions now of americans who will because of those 800,000 people who will not be getting paychecks today. and i just can't help but think that every time there's people involved, the president just shows he has no heart. he has no empathy.

and to heilemann's point, he's absolutely right. the president has a political emergency and is trying to find using the national emergency as a way to get himself out of it. i hope more and more republicans do speak out about it and join a lawsuit if he does do it. the one thing that i find so shocking are all these members of congress, republicans, who are willing to cede their most important thing which they have, which is their influence as a legislative leader to the president. it goes to joe's earlier point about why the republican party is just falling apart because you have a bunch of people who are throwing away their principles and not willing to stand up for what's right. they're just trying to avoid a primary. >> not on are they ceding their power on capitol hill, they're

ceding constitutional power and union mining this constitutional republic and the checks and balances that have kept us going for over 240 years. and, rick, i want to follow uppin a point that eric eriksson made on twitter, that john heilemann has made and others have been making and that is that it's all about precedence. if donald trump can declare a national emergency on a phony issue where the facts don't even back him up, then what happened after a democrat gets elected in 2020 and there's another mass shooting a tt a high school and we're seeing images of children being carried out of their classrooms, out of their biology and english classes with bullet holes all over them, what would stop a democratic president from declaring a national emergency and seizing military-style weapons? what would stop the next democrat being president from shutting down coal-powered

plants like marco rubio said because of the national emergency, the eminent threat of climate change? what would stop the chief executive from declaring that the supreme court was packed illegally by mitch mcconnell so we're going to have to expand the supreme court from nine members to 12 members immediately? what would stop that? it's a rhetorical question. go. >> i'm hoping, joe, we would never elect a democrat or republican ever again who would use declaring a national emergency for political purposes. the reason you noknow it's political is he's saying i'm n contemplating declaring a national emergency, that's the first phase, contemplating over several days a national

emergency. the, the circumstances where a president would rightfully declare national emergency would have nothing to do with whether the leaders of the opposition party will do it or not do it. i'm glad john heilemann brought it up. this is a step towards marshal law. it brings us in that direction and that's a very dangerous precedent. i asked fellow conservatives and trump supporters and, by the way, democrats share that same -- i don't know anybody who doesn't want border security, the question is whether a wall works. the president has broken a fundamental promise. he said mexico would pay for the wall. he said they were going to write a check, he did actually say that. he goes further and says i'm going to get mexico now to pay for the wall indirectly through a great trade deal.

first of all, the trade deal isn't enacted. it has to be ratified by the canadian government, mexican government and united states government before it can be enacted. let's give him the benefit of the doubt and suppose it is enacted and there's no provision in it to provide any money for the wall. let's suppose it will grow the economy and more revenue comes into the government, right, that's american taxpayer money. that's not mexican money. so what donald trump would have his supporters believe is not only are we going to pay for the wall with the $5.7 billion now, we would pay for it twice! >> if we reach tomorrow, it will be longest shutdown in government history as we're tacking on become on the brink of a deck lar laration of a nat

emergency. there were reports all over the place including on the cover of the "new york times" that said the president was ready to walk away from his bored ader wall. he saw that, he heard from sean hannity and ann coulter who said if the president doesn't get his wall, he will be a, quote, joke president who scammed the american people. this is a reaction to criticism he heard from some conservatives and now here we are on the brink of what he believes is a national emergency. >> after he had a deal -- that's a great point -- after he had a deal that republicans and democrats could come together on and he agreed on. they were ready to move forward and then he heard from rush limbaugh and ann coulter. so here we are all this time later. and, mika, the impact, oh my lord, the impact it's not only having on those employees but even if donald trump and republicans wanted to look at this cynically, the impact it's

having on their approval ratings. just devastating. imagine if he does declare a national emergency and that's struck down by the court. imagine how bad that's going to look for him because the court will lay out in black and white why this is not a national emergency and also how the president can't say i'm going to declare a national emergency if i don't get my way in negotiations. this is a guy that wrote "the art of the deal"? this is more like the art of the steal. he's trying to steal this issue away by declaring a national emergency. mika, it's not going to happen. if he does it, the courts will strike him down. >> it's another huge exercise in branding for him. it's disturbing. still ahead, president trump's former fixer michael cohen has agreed to testify publicly before congress in february just a month before he's set to go to

prison. >> plus, senator kamala harris joins the conversation at the top of the hour. we'll get her thinking ahead of a like live presidential run. and breaking news. the military says the troop withdrawal from syria has begun. the coalition spokesman declined to discuss specific timelines or locations. we're following this. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. "morning jo" we'll be right back. ♪ saved you a seat.

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get fast reliable internet and add voice for a low price. just one more way we go beyond for your business. and now you can also enter for a chance to win $10,000 from comcast business toget your year off to a fast start. there's a new $10,000 winner every day in january. go online now and enter for a chance to win. comcast business. beyond fast. this is just a couple miles from here, from where we're standing. this is a tunnel. this is the second tunnel that recently that we have located. this is an area that we actually have wall. >> seems like they were learning something there about the wall. >> you build tunnels underneath the wall. >> mr. president, just letting you know in public during your own dog and pony show with your department of home land security director right there that your wall idea is really stupid.

yup, that was a roundtable discussion with border officials yesterday who actually know how things work there. president trump being shown that tunnels had been dug under already existing walls. trump made several carefully orchestrated appearances at the border. that one didn't go very well, aimed at dramatizing what he calls a crisis. surrounded by border agents and contraband. including at that roundtable discussion where seized stacks of heroin, meth, guns and cash were prominently displayed yet as the "new york times" points out the display of drugs, weapons and cash was mainly the product of law enforcement actions stopping criminals at international bridges where most drugs are smuggled and conventional ports of entry. law enforcement officials boasted of apprehending criminals who had built a tunnel. the money was taken from a suspect who had overstayed a

visa. god. >> in james' latest piece he dives into three main points amid the ongoing government shutdown. james, this is just a wonderful piece. it's exactly the type of piece americans need to read and maybe it's just the southern baptist in me but all preachers stick to three points and they start out by telling you what those three points are, then they preach and then they give you the three points again at the end. now this is wonderful. you break it down to three realities and then tell people if they want to hear more, read on. unfortunately when the sermon was going on, i had to stay in the pew. but i wanted to read on here. i want to start with reality two because i think it's so easy to forget that for two years donald trump and his republican party had an absolute monopoly over

washington, d.c. all the levers of power, and yet they never once made a serious move to fund this wall. >> exactly. you can contrast that with the things that it was clear that this president and his congressional majority in both houses cared about because they would do neg anything to make i pass. we had the brett kavanaughme appointment. during that time there was never any effort to have the emergency funding. so did this really matter? no, it didn't matter to them when they had the power to do something about it and it's just become a political embarrassment as you were saying before because donald trump has been

ridiculed by some of his right-wing opponents. >> and to your point, noah ross pointed out a few examples of how conservative republicans not only didn't go along with the wall plan but actually were hostile to it. senator john cornyn stood next to donald trump yesterday but less than two years ago he said i don't think we're just going to be able to solve border security with a physical barrier because people can come under, around it and through it. lindsey graham now asking the president to declare a national emergency, but graham said the border wall is probably not a smart investment. and the wall stro"the wall stre found in republican lawmakers from southwest border states who defended trump's funding request to start funding the wall. in a "usa today" survey found

less than a quarter congressional republicans would endorse border wall funding. james, i could go on and on and on. there's so many examples of that hostility. we don't have to go back to two years ago, your first point is equal li equally effective, let's go back a week or two and this were fine keeping the government open. >> go back to december 18th and all the newspapers reported on a voice vote where there was no sort of recorded opposition, entire senate under mitch mcconnell had passed kind of clean funding bill that we're talking about no that said, okay, let's keep the rest of the government going and we'll worry about the wall later on. and senator john cornyn of texas was saying we have every indication the president was behind this. december 18th is the state of play. december 19th is when ann coulter, rush limbaugh, the fox news apparatus started saying what a concession, what a

cave-in, this man is a joker, this man is weak. it's not anything that changed in realities, just this mockery of whether donald trump was a strong leader that was the turn in policy. >> and, james, it's willie geist. the president reportedly has been encouraged to use the term crisis again and again so he can walk himself up to calling this a national emergency. you've studied a lot of presidents over the years, you know history well. what are your concerns about a precedent if the president does in fact go down that road and declare a national emergency, there have been many progressives and democrats online, facetiously saying, great, we'll do that for climate change and gun control. what are your concerns about that? >> in way the worst implication is that trump is doing this cynically, assuming that this is

a way out of a box canyon he's in now. if he assumes a crisis or emergency declaration would be stopped by the courts, it's a way out for him. he can say to his base i tried really hard. if you compare the make believe of the genesis of this crisis with the real effect it's having right now on hundreds of thousands of families and on businesses and on science and on air traffic control and on the securities and exchange commission, i don't recall anything in my long repertoirial experience where a shadow boxing motivation has been as stark as this. >> you're a close observer of these matters and this is a topic of great interest on this show. i mean, the moral rot and ideological rot in the republican party, this is not the first time we've seen it. we've watched it unfold over the last two years and you could argue it's the thing that gave rise to trump in the first place

bushes is it not the case, i've always thought as bad as they are, at some point the political calculations come into play if you're on the hill and there's going to start to be costs. usually it's the political costs associated with a shutdown that drive people to the table. what is it about this republican party that makes it not just enthralled to trump but seemingly immune to the normal laws of political fiphysics tha drive them to what else is going on. >> it's astonishing that if mitch mcconnell and his colleagues were feeling uncomfortable enough about this, they can change it. they can repass the resolution they did three weeks ago. so there is something about mcconnell and the people around him that make them think it's better to stay on this ship as it heads to unknown destinations but it is at the cost of people

not being paid and the rest of the country. that's a long way of saying i don't know and i share your question. >> james, i want you to get to your third point because it's equally important. tell us the third point. >> the third point is that there really is not any crisis except, number one, the political one for trump and the humanitarian crisis of people being trapped by this. i first did my long cover story for "the atlantic" about the border in 1983, during ronald reagan's first term. and even then you had the idea of fences in certain populated areas, you had other parts of the border that were too big to fence, you had helicopters, sensors that have evolved and compared from that time to this, the border has become more under control. if you ask anybody who lives near the border, who follows these movements, over the last decade it's become a more stable,manageable, less

wild west situation than before. the things seized on display were at airports and bridges. a fantasy world trump could say look how well things are going. the objective situation of border is not a crisis. the crisis is a political one. >> james, final question. i just want you to reflect actually on what's happened since you worked like dr. brzezinski for jimmy carter. president carter was the first to declare national emergencies based on the 76 act and he used it very sparingly. in fact, only in response to very dramatic events in iran. do you share some of our concerns that whether it's a republican president or a democratic president, the continued eroding of article i

powers causes a real threat to our constitution? >> certainly. it's whatle call the chick i don't know hot phenomenon. congress never wants to teak responsibility for military action so they cede this to the president more and more. but these step-wise functions, it's a danger for 200-plus years and a more acute one now, i can say the carter administration deliberated so carefully with its justice officials and national security official and civic officials saying if we do this, what will it man for our successor and our successor four removed. i think most presidents with their different political views and inclinations have said this is a serious step we may be taking. you don't get the sense that stephen miller and trump are having that conversation now.

>> thank you very much. you should check out his latest book. coming up, house lawmakers press pressure treasury secretary steven mnuchin for answers about the president's decision to ease some russian sanctions but speaker of the house nancy pelosi called the whole briefing a waste of time. >> boy, it was. i could not believe when he -- he said absolutely nothing. >> it's what he didn't bring to the table that was stagger. we'll explain why ahead on "morning joe." i don't think anything can prepare you to hear those words from a doctor... stage 2 breast cancer.

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the president, whoever he is, has to decide. he can't pass the buck to anybody. >> the buck stops here. >> i do believe the buck stops here. it stops with me. i am the one who is ultimately accountable for the american people. >> for ultimately the buck stops with me. >> does the buck stop with you over this shutdown? >> the buck stops with everybody. >> wow. everything is just so different. >> everything is so different. >> god.

>> and you know, rick tyler, this is the same man who a week and a half ago -- >> he meant everybody but me. >> a couple weeks ago he declared on national television in front of chuck schumer and nancy pelosi and the world, hey, this is my shutdown, i take full credit. it's going to be my responsibility. i'm not going to blame you, chuck, this is my shutdown. and here we are a couple weeks later saying the buck starts with everybody. >> i've run out of adjectives to describe all the behavior. think of all the people at the rally when he says mexico was going to pay for the wall and now he says he never says that. it just -- >> can i ask you, our friends and our relatives who voted with us for george w. bush price and some for ronald reagan, some for george h.w. bush, for mitt romney, who are these people who

hear him lying, know he's lying and still blindly defend him and attack all those who just show the tape and say, look, he's lying? >> you know, i watch these same people, many of whom i've respected, admired and thought had ining it rhad logic twist t with pretzel logic and juxtapose what he's saying now and they come up with some -- they always have an excuse why it's really not quite what it is or what it seemed. and i get into discussions of what trump trying to say. why not have trump explain it to the rest of us? can't he use his words and

explain? he can't take responsibility with his own actions. what i believe is going to happen with a shutdown now, there won't be a negotiated settlement. he will either declare a national emergency and it will go to the courts, just like daca, or he'll find emergency funding designed for other emergencies like california. "the washington post" has identified $13.9 billion, more than twice of what he's asking, to divert to wall funding. that of course will get challenged and go to court, too, but it will give him an opportunity to get out of this. or my republican friends on the hill will actually join with the democrats and reopen the government. i see that as the least likely possibility. >> that's the thing they should do. >> that would be great. >> the fda is having to stop

food enspeinspections. the fbi saying their ability to track down terrorists is hampered, air traffic control, tsa agents. and, by the way, the chaos brought about by all of this will not only be on donald trump's hands, it will be on mitch mcconnell's hands as well. and if mitch mcconnell is going to get in the way of separate funding bills to allow the fda to inspect your food so you and members of your family aren't sent to the hospital with e. coli, or let's say the air traffic controllers can't do their job, the tsa can't do their jobs, somebody slips through and a plane goes down. that's going to be on donald trump's hands on on the hands of mitch mcconnell and every republican saying we're going to hold the entire government hostage, we're not going to fund

food inspections because donald trump wants to build a wall, we're not going to fund the fbi members tracking down gang mms because donald trump wants to build a phony wall, we're not going to fund safety all across this country because donald trump wants to build a phony wall. not because he wants to build a phony wall but because he wants to be able to say he did in campaign speeches in the future. it's ridiculous, mika. it is as reckless and irresponsible as anything we have seen. >> thank you so much. a group representing fbi agents now says the government shut double play is putting national security at risk. we're going to have the latest on that. and senator kamala harris joins us at the top of the hour. s joi us at the top of the hour. if you have psoriasis,

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susan, the ongoing ambiguity about what's happening in syria with our troops continues this morning. we heard the announcement from the white house that the troops were going to begin their withdrawal. the pentagon has just corrected that and said no troops are being withdrawn right now, they are just laying the framework for that to happen. again, more chaos. and not only policy makers in the united states but our allies across the globe have been waiting to see what the united states was going to do in that region but the chaos continues. >> the chaos does continue and it's because president trump is only worried about himself and he cannot focus and make real decisions about significant matters. that scares me to death. we're talking about really serious international issues and donald trump won't be bothered with it and can't even be consistent. >> what's the impact moving forward, susan? >> i think our allies are very

concerned. they used to think we can wait donald trump out but now they're going to start taking action without us and we're losing our influence on the world stage and that is going to isolate us further and hurt us economically and militarily and it seems like that will become a growing crisis for the united states. >> all right. thanks so much. stay tuned. senator kamala harris is coming up in two minutes. we're going to ask her that question, what music does she listen to in the morning. ng [indistinct conversation] [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪

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getsilversneakers.com all right. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tried, january 11th. we have national affairs analyst john heilemann, mike barnicle is with us and joining the conversation, democratic senator

kamala harris of california. she has two books out, "the truths we hold, an american journey" and a children's book, "superheros are everywhere." we want to talk to you about 2020 politics but first let's talk about the issue at hand. in washington with so many federal employees getting paychecks today with a big fat zero on them, what's it going to take to end this shutdown? what's it going to take to push mitch mcconnell over the edge and get him to cut a deal? if the president cuts a deal on dreamers, a strong one, would that end the shutdown? >> well, first, the president is holding the american people hostage over his vanity project.

that's what's happening. this is a crisis of his own making. i found it outrageous. it would be fascinating if it weren't potentially so destructive, to sit back and talk about he's talking about an emergency order over a crisis of his own making. we have a president of the united states putting politics above the needs of the american public. that's where we are. ehope that all of us who have taken an oath to act on behalf of the people we represent would step up and step up and speak out on behalf of the american people. we are talking about tsa people who are responsible for paying attention to national security security and making sure that we are safe. we are talking about fbi agents who are furloughed. we are talking about people who have dedicated their lives to working on behalf of the american people in the interest of public safety. so the irony here is this president is talking about a

wall because this is going to keep out so-called terrorists, which we know is not true, in the interest of public safety when each day he is choking the very people who are responsible for actually making sure that we have public safety every day as americans. it's outrageous. you have to put this in contest. >> should democrats and republicans at this point be meeting on their own? should they try to find their way around the president? can there be some unity in at least agreeing that crisis is a word being misused and this shutdown has to end? >> i think you're exactly right. the united states congress should recognize the crisis of leadership and where there is a void and a vacuum in particular then we should be compelled to step up. no question. there's no question. >> so, senator, this is actually a more specific problem for you in your state because the "new york times" is reporting this morning that president trump is looking and asking if he can

divert emergency funds away from your state, your recovery from the wildfires in northern california, take $13.9 billion allocated for hurricane and fire relief to take that money and use it along the border. what's your reaction to that idea? >> again, it's outrageous. it's sad to be honest with you, willie. i say this because i have traveled to puerto rico after that island was devastated by natural disaster, i went to paradise, california and i met with the families, the fires were still -- the smoke, it was in the air. i met with these families who will never be able to return to a home they only knew. i met with firefighters in paradise, california, who as they were fighting fires knew that their homes had burned down. these are the real stories behind this political man

manipulation that is happening. it is absolutely irresponsible. it is not only irresponsible, and we can sit back and drink our coffee and talk about this is outrageous, it's actually harmful on a daily basis to real people who have a right to believe their government will act in their best interest and not in their selfish interest. it's a farce. it's a farce. this is all happening in the so-called interest of public safety. well, what about first responders? what about people whose lives have been devastated by natural disasters? they should be our concern. not to mention the fact that you want to talk about throwing around $5 billion. the american public would love to see those $5 billion put into building up roads and bridges that are falling apart, into money that we need to infuse a system that maybe would allow for the first time affordable child care for working families.

a lot we could do with $5 billion instead of a vanity project. >> senator, let's be constru constructive. we know who it's hurting. what's the way out of this? we asked a lot of your colleagues. president said $5.7 billion or bust, i'm not moving. your democratic colleagues said you're not getting $5.7 billion. how do we get out of this? >> we have to speak up. we have to speak up. i'm going to give you as an example something that just comes to mind. when this administration created a policy of ripping babies from their mother's and father's arms, people spoke up and put the pressure on this administration saying this is not reflective of our values and what we want to see in terms of the role of our country when it comes to people most in need. people have to speak up. there is power in that.

there is sppower in the elected members of the united states congress speaking up. >> are you talking about republicans here? >> i'm talking about everybody. >> do you think if republican senators put pressure on the president that he might buckle on $5.7 billion? >> i do. i do believe that my republican colleagues are respected by their constituents. i do believe all of us in a position of elected leadership, the people who elected us and even those who didn't look to us to give them some idea of what's going on with their government and they pay attention when we tell them what's happening and when we are honest with them and when we speak truth. and they listen. and this is still a democracy, willie. this is still a democracy. and i do believe the people's will and their voice will be respected, but we have to encourage it. and that's the responsibility of a leader.

this is what's going on, guys. let me tell you what's going on behind the scenes. there is that rhetoric and then there's what's really happening. >> there are some republicans starting to speak out and there's lindsey graham who is encouraging the president to declare a national crisis. >> let's talk about a national crisis. in los angeles, a potential teacher's strike. 900 schools. it's been delayed until monday. 80% of the children in those school live in poverty. >> wyes, they do. >> part of the element of a debate of a strike is health care. some teachers receive lifetime house benefits along with their spouses. the cost is enormous. so this is not just los angeles. this is all over the country. >> right. >> so the national crisis that no president, at least president trump has not addressed from the oval office is the rising cost of health care. 80% of children in one school

district living in poverty. that's not unusual with like no shot for your future or the future -- >> that's right. >> what are we going to do? >> well, you know, i think that part of what we have to acknowledge is a very uncomfortable truth, which is that we are a society that pretends to care about education but not so much the education of other people's children. and we need to be honest about that. we have allowed our public education system to atrophy. to your point, i am a beneficiary of a public education. when i was in public schools, in elementary school in california, it was ranged as one of the highest in the country because we were putting the resources into supporting our teachers and recognizing their value and paying them commensurate with their value. we were putting resources into the classroom, knowing that that is going to be the best indication of what our future

will look like in terms of our economic health and standing in the world. and we've fall i don't knen sho. it has to be on a state level and local level for sure. >> how do you explain the difference between race and class and about how some kids make it and some kids don't? >> this is a long conversation. you want to sit back? i'm happy to have it. there's a lot to talk about on both pieces and both are relevant to what we see as outcomes and also what we are putting into the system. i'll credit former governor gerry brown and i'm a huge fan of the current governor. but gerry brown created a system giving local control and in particular changing the factors we consider in terms of what we put into resources into school districts, factoring the number of children in the school system who are in the foster care

system. factoring, for example, the household income of those families and zip codes. i'm going to tell you, we can get into some real detail here, i think so much public policy would be better if we really started to factor in zip codes in terms of how we distribute resources. and the beauty of it, i'm really going to get into detail, which i talk about in my book, is also that right now in terms of public policy in our country, we can't get into that level of detail because we also have the technology that allows us to collect large amounts of data and analyze it in a way that we could be so much more effective with the distribution of limited resources and i would start with public education. >> kamala, first of all, we want to talk about your book. >> both of them! >> thank you, mika. >> we can't wait to get kamala

on the show because we want to talk about both books. "the truths we hold" and "super heros are everywhere" is what we always wanted to talk about. that said, we're going to talk about that in a second. >> i'm ready, i think. >> we'll talk about it in a second. first question is there's been app awful lot of talk about you running for president. how close are you to making that decision? >> i'll make it soon. i'm not going to answer today obviously. >> well, that hurts us. >> willie and i -- >> this transaction is not working. >> willie and i, we care too much. we'll take the pain and continue through. more importantly, i want to ask you, though, if you decide to run for president, i want to ask you the roger mudd question that he asked of ted kennedy that ted

kennedy couldn't answer and doomed his presidency since day one and that is why would you want to be president? >> because i believe our country wants and needs leadership that provide as vision of the future of our country in which everyone can see themselves, in which everyone can see themselves. so let's start from that and then think about what we need to do to speak to all of the people of our country to ensure that we see them, to understand that we don't need to accept false choices in terms of how we approach blackpopublic policy. i'm a career prosecutor. i've spent my entire life almost on public safety. we can do that and focus also on building a healthy economy. we are at an inflexion point not on in the history of this country but the withhoorld. there's been so much about the focus of the significance of 2016 and what would have been

different but what would not have changed is that we are still a world, a globe, in the midst of an industrial revolution. we are seeing ascending and descending economies, shifting populations for a variety of reasons, including what we need to talk more about, which is climate change. there is so much change happening in the world. and the question i think for us as a country is where do we want to be in this moment and where do we want to be in the near future? we need to claim our position and start thinking about that. and that involves thinking about what are we doing to prepare the workforce for the jobs of the 21st century? what are we thinking about in terms of recognizing that some people will applaud china for its efficiency and effectiveness and maybe even point to it as the new model of economic power, but one of the things we have all prided ourselves on as a source of our strength is we have been an economic power that

understands that cannon should co exist with an equal commitment to human rights and equality and freedoms. these are the issues being presented to our country today. and those are the issues i think about. and read the book because -- >> well, i was just going to get to that because that's really why you're here. i just want to follow up on this last question and then we're going to get to the book. for those of us that have been following this for far too long and then connected to washington for far too long, we saw the 42nd president impeached, we saw the 43rd president come in and he campaigned as a uniter, not a divider. in fact, you talk to people in texas, george w. bush worked very well with democrats in texas. barack obama, the 44th president had that remarkable speech in boston when he said i don't see a red america, i don't see a blue america, i see one america. and then of course another eight

years of divisive presidency, not blaming bush or obama, i'm just saying they couldn't figure out a way to crack that code. of course now we have donald trump. if you run for president and you were the 46th president, how do you bring this country together? so people in tuscaloosa, alabama and topeka, kansas think that you are their president every bit as much as somebody on the upper west side of manhattan or in san francisco? >> it has to be because one knows in their core, in their being, in their soul and in their heart that the vast majority of us as americans have so much more in common than what separates us. you have to know that. there's an inference that in a

place where there is diversity and diverse populations, there is some suggestion that where there is diversity we cannot achieve unity. . think of it almost as a mathematical formula. i would propose a different formula, diversity plus x equ s equals -- not to mention what we can talk about class diversitdi. it is a mistake to suggest that in that diversity we don't have incredible common priorities and values. and here's how i think about it

as an example. when people wake up at 3:00 in the morning, or you can call it the witching hour in the middle of the night with the thing that's been weighing on them when they wake up with a cold sweat, when the vast majority wake up with that thought, it is never through the lens of our party, and when we wake up thinking that thought, it has to do with our personal health, the health of our children or parents, for so many americans can i get a job, keep a job, pay the bills by the end of the month. the vast majority have so much more in common than separate us. we have to reject the voices trying to sow hate and division among us and i think we have to recognize the truth of who we are and to speak to that truth. >> that's a perfect seg way to your book "the truths we hold."

>> thank god we're finally talking about the book. willie, this is our time. >> especially at a time when the truth is being put in question every day by the president of theins. much of the book is framed around your mother and your story. >> yes. >> how much of your story prepares you for public service, do you think? especially perhaps even the highest level of it? >> thank you, mika. and you i think most of us appreciate the impact that our parents have had on our lives. >> absolutely. >> and in particular my mother, you see a picture of my parents when they were married. my mother had a very profound impact on who i am. she was all of five feet tall but would you have thought she was seven feet tall. her whole goal in life, she was a breast cancer researcher, was to raise her two daughters and end breast cancer. and i was raised in a community of people who lived and believed and taught us that your life has to be on one level or another in

service of others. and the critical point about how i was raised is that to be clear that this is not about a charitable pursuit. you don't do it just because oh, i have a little extra to give, i'm going to just dole it out and aren't i lovely and wonderful because i'm so benevolent and give a little bit what i have to give. i was raised that it was a duty -- >> daughter of immigrants. >> yes. and that in many ways formed my life. i chose with that calling or that spirit to go to law school. i wanted to be a lawyer. my heros growing up with thurgood marshal and all those folks and then i decided to become a prosecutor because i believed there were vulnerable and voiceless people who deserved to have a voice within that system and i hoped to do what i could in terms of reforming the criminal justice

system. >> heilemann. >> i'm going to ask you a question that's not directly about the book but -- >> did you read the book, john? >> i sped read through this thing -- >> index. >> no. >> there is an index. you have to look and see if your name's not in it, people won't read it. >> i looked to see if barnicle's name is mentioned. he's mentioned like 37 times in the book so it's worth reading. the woman who wrote this book sits on the senate judiciary committee and next week will begin the process of confirming a new attorney general, who has written some things as a private citizens, expressing a lot of criticism and doubt of the special counsel, someone who has not been meeting with a lot of your democratic colleagues. i don't know if you've met with him or not yet. >> i have not. >> tell me what your attitude is. what are the kinds of questions you want to ask him and what do you think your recommendation, your vote for his confirmation or not, what are the things on

which that will turn? >> one, to your point of the question and all that we know just as a public matter, i am interested in knowing what he believes were the incentives for his nomination to be the next attorney general of the united states. did he believe that it was important for him to write letters about special counsel. if that's the case, that's troubling and i worry about that because as a former attorney general of the state of california and as, again, someone who has focused on these issues for most of my career, i would hope that the motivation would be to do the work of justice, to make sure that it would be important for me sitting on the senate judiciary committee to make sure that he is motivated by the right and appropriate interests to lead the united states department of justice. so those are part of my concerns. i'm also going to be curious, frankly, about his position on what the department of justice has done in the last two years under this administration. and because there are so many big things and big, you know,

stories that pop every day, i think we've lost sight of what quietly is happening in this administration and so many of its agencies, including the department of justice. >> do you think that if he gets confirmed, which he's likely to, do you think there's a case on the basis of what we know already for him to have to recuse himself from managing the mueller case? >> i think there's a good argument for him to recuse himself, yes. >> i see you holding your book. we'll pull it up again. >> wait, the children's book, have i to hold that up, too. >> just go on. what's the next question? >> colbert got you to might run last night. he got you there. we can speak hypothetically, if you'd like. if you were to run for president, what would be your

posture toward president trump? no one questions that you could handle him. we've watched your career, we've watched you question james comey and jeff sessions and rod rosenstein in very public settings, but this new class of democrats who come in have gone with a full frontal posture, the language we've heard from certain members as well -- >> and let's not forget the language we've heard from longstanding members in the last 24 hours. >>without question. i'm thinking back to the 2016 campaign, marco rubio tried to play donald trump's game and use insults and those kind of things and it didn't work. what would be your posture toward president trump? policy is a different question. how would you handle him? would you fight him rhetorically? would you use the kind of language you've heard in the last few days. >> candidly, my focus would be if i were going to run, it would not be donald trump. it would be the voters and the people of our country.

they deserve, i believe, it hear from anyone who wants to be a leader. they deserve to hear from any one of us who puts ourselves out there how we are going to be relevant to their lives. i believe that should be the focus of the conversation. and to the extent that it would invariably bring up what this administration has done or not done, of course that is relevant. i believe the motivation and the focus of the conversation should be how are we or whether we are relevant in the lives of people who are living every day who expect and should trust that their government is thinking of them and not of ourselves. that would be my motivation. >> senators kamala harris, thank you for being on the show. the two books are "the truth we hold" and the children's book "superheros are everywhere."

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we just spoke with likely presidential candidate kamala harris. let's take a look at the latest updates on some of her could be competitors, new york senator kirsten gillibrand eyes a presidential run. the associate press writes she looks at troy, new york as a possible 2020 campaign base. over in texas, former three-term congressman beto o'rourke took to instagram yesterday to share too much, something personal with his followers, his dentist visit. ew! no. he used his time in the dentist chair to share his dental

hygienist's personal story growing up on the u.s./mexico border. willie? >> go ahead and make your joke. >> it's pulling teeth. it's horrible. >> oh. >> i don't think we needed to see that. did we, john heilemann? >> i did not. >> washington state governor ainslie looking to hold a fund-raiser in new hampshire later this month as he considering a 2020 run and political reporting that sherrod brown plans to visit iowa in the coming weeks. >> watch out for him. >> i agree. >> we just had senator harris sitting with us for about an hour, if she runs, her argument to become president. you sprinkle in beto o'rourke,

sherr sherrod brown, elizabeth warren, what does this field look like? >> a mess. you have a large contingent of governors, congressmen, congress people i should say and then you have the mike bloomberg, o howard schultz, potential businessmen and formers who are not even sitting. so you've got this giant list. i think the biggest question over the course of the next three to six months is how much of that field end up actually running versus testing the waters and looking around and not seeing a lane for themselves. there's a limited amount -- there's a lot of interest but there's a limited number, a finite amount of staff and a finite amount of money and democrats really want to win. so the question is in this testing period, who gets the

staff that looks like it's capable of running a presidential campaign and who attracts the interest of enough donors, grass roots or traditional donor class, to start to crowd out some of these people. not all of them are going to run. we're going to have a big field but is it this giant field or is it a dozen that looks like the field in 2012 or 2016. >> it's going to be one of the more interesting campaigns because there has not been a more turbulent time since 1968. and it's going to be, you know, we have all these senators thinking of running, a couple of governors thinking of running. i truly believe it's going to come down to which of these candidates stands out who actually knows how ordinary americans live. >> not only do they want to know how ordinary americans live, but they also want -- i think they want someone who has experience

now. and that's kind of where they're jockeying position, you want someone who knows what's happening after watching what happened with donald trump who doesn't know what's happening and that's the hope for the democratic field, when you look at the wave in 2018, it came from two places, from progressive primary upsets and it came from winning swing seats. so that's going to be where i think you find the challenge of who can find not just a lane but who can have a uniting message for both sides of the party. >> willie, you asked a good question are senator harris, what kind of toneoned tenor an could they adopt against donald trump? >> that's assuming they're running against donald trump. >> they're still going to adopt that posture early.

democrats will want to see what am i going to get against donald trump? it going to be a big defining question. how do you decide to take him on? >> we'll see a lot of candidates in a few weeks. it was about this time that barack obama announced, then senator obama, announced he was running for president. >> still ahead, standing in solidarity with thousands of federal workers who will not see a paycheck today. congressman rose from new york joins us next. one hour pickup order?

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while some 800,000 federal employees won't be receiving a paycheck today, our next guest has pledged his paycheck to charity until the shutdown ends. the democrat who flipped new york city's only republican-held district, newly sworn in congressman max rose joins the conversation now. welcome to the show. good to have you on board. congratulations. >> thank you so much for having me and thank you. >> so, well, let's see.

you received the purple heart, the bronze star, you served in afghanistan and now you're in congress. is this what you expected to confront? this is crazy. >> no. it's an absolute disgrace. normally swearing in day is a moment to be with your family and it's a day of celebration. our swearing in day was a day of sorrow and disgust at the state of our government. we can't play politics with american lives and i believe that's exactly what is happening today. >> what can democrats and republicans do beyond the president? i say that because the president has already dismissed deals that had bipartisan support. and he's proven on many levels but especially in this negotiation that he can't be trusted, even if you had a deal with him, you wouldn't know whether it would actually follow through. what can democrats and republicans do without the president to end the shutdown?

>> remember these are co-equal branches. first of all, today is a significant day because, as you mentioned, the american people, federal workers, are not getting their paychecks today. so i do sincerely believe that pressure is going to continue to build. people are honestly suffering. at this point i honestly believe our homeland security is starting to be genuinely affected by this. i urge my republican colleagues in both the house and the senate to unite around these very sensible bills for us just to reopen the government, even on a temporary basis so we can have a genuine debate about how we can secure our borders as as well as uphold our values. i feel we're being presented with false choices that it's a decision between security -- no security or a wall and i think

that's a false choice. >> it's always good to see you, sir. >> good to see you, too, buddy. >> if the president does decide to go ahead and declare a national emergency, what would be your reaction to that? and does congress have any recourse there? what's the pushback if he does it? >> look, you don't get to declare a national emergency just because you didn't get your way. when i swore an oath and enlisted in the military, i must have missed that in the constitution. with that being said, though, congress will have significant tools at its disposal to include the ability to bring this issue to the courts. i would urge the president not to take this route. this is emerging as a constitutional crisis. what we need to do is plain and simple, we need to reopen the government and then we need to talk about how we're going to actually have national security, sensible national security and homeland security in this country. today on staten island and in south brooklyn, the district

that i represent, people are dying from overdoses. fentanyl is streaming into our country from our postal services as well as through our ports of entry. i haven't heard any discussion, any discussion about how we're going to secure our ports of entry. right now containers, trucks are not being x-rayed. that's the crisis. and people are dying as a result of it. let's fix that. >> congressman susan del percio here. congratulations. >> thank you. >> my question to you is you won the seat, it was an upset. you took it but it's also a district that is very much behind donald trump. who has voted republican consistently. what are you hearing from your consiste constituents in this district about the president? are they with the president? >> people in my district don't have blind allegiance to

anybody, myself included. we didn't think it was an upset on my campaign. i know the pundits did. the reason why we won is because we spoke about a vision for this country where we boldly tackle problems. there's incredible nostalgia in my district, for the apollo project, the interstate highway act, a time when it felt like people put the country first. so what you see in my district and i think throughout the country is utter disgust, disgust with the fact that we are not paying coast guard soldiers right now, disgust with the fact that when folks go to the airport, they have to pass tsa workers who they know aren't getting the paycheck and they just want to see the government open back up. i've got parks in my district that aren't being claeaned righ now. we're going to go with a bunch of volunteers and clean up the parks ourselves. this is atrocious.

atrocious. i do believe it lays at the president's feet. he started this and right now we have to unite and open this government back up. >> so max rose, in a prior life you worked alongside people and your lives literally depended on one another. you didn't know whether the republicans, democrats, gays, straight, whatever. >> absolutely. >> so how stupid does it strike you sitting there with 434 other members of congress that you can't resolve this simple issue over this stupid wall? >> stupid is exactly the word. you know, it does not feel yet like folks in congress, especially this president, are feeling the same sense of crisis that the american people are experiencing. this is why we ran. i'm not the only one. it's not just the soldiers, it's the diplomats, the cia operatives. we've got to get this government working given. the republican party, they're not my enemies.

when i was in afghanistan, the taliban was my enemy. this president is not my enemy. i just want to see us be functional again. it's not just a system change. i do believe generally there's a culture change as well. the culture is broken in washington, d.c. and it's got to be fixed. >> all right. max rose, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> thank you for having me again. >> thanks, congressman. >> good luck. >> i guess right after we hear from a democrat who flipped a republican-held district, it's good to point out the party, the republican party is suffering a bit. lindsey graham, he's so right about so many things. i just want to read a tweet from may 3rd 2016. gosh, it was prophetic. lindsey graham, if we nominate trump, we will get destroyed and we will deserve it. >> thanks, lindsey, good point prognosticating. coming up, donald trump's former lawyer and fixer michael cohen

says he looks forward to testifying publicly about trump to congress. we'll talk about that next on "morning joe."

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xfinity home. simple. easy. awesome. call, go online or demo in an xfinity store today. i'm not worried about it at all, no. >> oh, yes, he is. >> yeah, he is worried about it, isn't he? >> super worried. >> hard to imagine he wouldn't be worried about it. we don't know what's going to happen on february 7th but if you were donald trump you would imagine it would be the most horrendous days of your presidency having michael cohen on the hill in that room, still trying to bargain to get his sentence reduced with nothing to lose, nothing to restrain him

anymore, willing to tell the truth, nothing few be truth and to no longer being referring to him as individual one. telling the story of donald trump probably with a lot of beyond the basic facts of the things that cohen knows, be able to tell the story with the kind of narrative embroidery, the kind of anecdotal color that will impact viewers in a way that a lot of the dry court reporting has not. so i think the political damage here is huge. >> so let me open -- i want to open the next question up to the table really quickly. mike, why do you -- >> slide on in. >> a great shot. >> that's awesome. i love that. i couldn't even -- the transition was so smooth i couldn't even tell. >> tj is back. >> what is tj doing? even from wherever he is right now. so mike, obviously michael cohen

is going to be talking about the deal with the national enquirer and what they did and we all heard that american media did a deal with mueller and admitted that they basically, you know, participated in hit jobs of the president's enemies or else they would -- they would protect trump. so i'm just curious. why is it that they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and go to extraordinary lengths to try to destroy the life of jeff bezos, a man who has been enemy number one of donald trump almost from the beginning of this administration? are they -- are they still doing the same thing for donald trump that they did before they struck a deal with robert mueller? >> i would doubt that although it does lend itself to

conspiracy theories. no doubt about that, the bezos divorce that's going to be an ongoing story but michael cohen's testimony on february 7th is going to be one of the most pivotat moments in this saga for one reason only i would submit. everything he says to congress that day, everything that he testifies to, every element of his story is going to be followed by the universal question asked over and over and over and that question is and was mr. trump aware of that at the time. and it's going to be a killer. >> it really is. and willie geist, going back, just a quick correction, the southern district of new york is who struck the deal with american media, but again the question remains, are they continuing to do what they did for donald trump whether it was against ted cruz or whether it was against the man who now runs the hud department or whether it

was against other enemies of donald trump? mika and i got frantic phone calls from the white house begging us to apologize to president or else the national enquirer was going to do a hit on us. and that ain't a guy that's on entertainment weekly or in siel or anything like that. that's not a guy that americans say hey, i wonder what's happening in jeff bezos life. this was a direct hit job and the only people that would know about jeff bezos and care about him going down might be his competitors but also donald trump. and -- and his supporters. >> it would be a brash thing for the enquirer to do at this point having already struck a deal with the southern district of new york. but they said they filed -- jeff bezos for about four months.

but all you have to do is look at the history of what the national enquirer has done. you can ask you guys, as you just said you were threatened but ask ted cruz and the stories that were planted in the newspaper about alleged affairs that were proved to be completely untrue. so now it's a matter of public knowledge that the national enquirer was in bed with donald trump and working on his behalf. the question is would they continue it after they struck a deal with the southern district. >> donald trump is still trying to convince americans that a renegotiated trade deal is the same as mexico paying for the wall and it seems like the buck has stopped with just about every president in recent memory except for donald trump. we'll explain that. plus, john meacham jones us on the 30th anniversary of ronald ray gonereagan's farewell addre.

our current president could not be more different. "morning joe" is coming right back. different. "morning joe" is coming right back i hear it in the background and she's watching too, saying [indistinct conversation] [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪ you may have gum disease and could be on a journey to much worse. try parodontax toothpaste. it's three times more effective at removing plaque, the main cause of bleeding gums. leave bleeding gums behind with parodontax toothpaste. with retirement planning and advice for what you need today and tomorrow. because when you're with fidelity,

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going to write out a check. >> they may even write us a check. >> did you know that paul manafort was sharing polling data from your campaign with the russians? >> no, i didn't know anything about it nothing about it. >> so he denied knowing about the stormy daniels payoff. prosecutors say he did know. he denied saying mexico would cut a check for the border wall, but he did say that and he denies knowing paul manafort was sharing data with the russia linked associate. we'll leave that fact check to bob mueller. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, january 11th along with joe, willie and me, we have national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc and cohost, an executive producer of show times the circus, jon heilemann. and political analyst, and republican communications strategist and msnbc political

contributor, rick tyler is with us as well. joe, this shutdown, it continues. it's getting painful. people are getting paychecks today with a big fat zero on them. >> the government shut down is a big story. we'll talk about that at length but i don't want any of us to lose sight of what's happening right before our very eyes. we're watching the continued political side logical and moral collapse of my old party, the republican party and make no mistake, donald trump's governing immortally and amor ralety is driving this collapse but his republican allies on capitol hill and in powerful positions across america are too eager and too willing to be his accomplices. take the new republican chairman of the judiciary committee. south carolina's lindsey graham.

i've known him for years. we came together in congress in 1994 and lindsey was always considered to be the measured members of congress. he routinely warned us of the moral ride that president trump would bring and he said that developer would destroy the gop if he were elected. he was right then, bow now he's one of the administration's leading leaders to turn the republican party to mini me donald trumps. can you believe graham, along with me throughout the 90s championed the power of checks and balances, then of course,

then against bill clinton. we always talked about article 1 and the constitution and being constitutionalists. well, now that same lindsey graham who actually followed john mccain's lead for so long is actually the republican who's using his position as senate chairman of the judiciary committee to encourage donald trump to declare a national emergency and illegally seize article 1 powers if he doesn't get his way on the border wall. think about that for a second. and it is illegal. it will be overturned by the supreme court of the united states and if lindsey doesn't know that, then he really shouldn't even be in congress. it's that obvious. the courts will overturn this because in the midst of the kind of negotiations that donald trump's going through with nancy pelosi it's a first time that this spoiled pampered brat who

inherited $200 million from his father and blew through it, that brat has now grown up to be president of the united states and his 72, 73, how old is he? 73? i tell you yesterday -- but anyway, this is the first time anybody has ever stood up to him. and you know what that's called? that's called madisonian democracy and it's been the norm in this constitutional republic for 240 years and that's just been a balance between two coequal branches of the government. but lindsey says it's not going donald's way, so let's just declare a national emergency. we can rob money. >> my god. >> of course from people that are suffering in puerto rico, we can rob money from people who are suffering in california. we can rob money from our military men and women even though the armed services chairman has said that would be deplorable. it is truly deplorable and if

that's not bad enough, the iowa republican congressman, steve king, a man who has shared a long time admiration of donald trump spoke his truth and unashamedly declaring himself as a white supremacist. he would have been immediately removed from the republican conference, but in donald trump's gop they're just pro forma press releases and tweets of rebuke. because in reality he's just mirroring the president's views after that deadly march in charlottesville and this morning steve king remains a good standing in the house and the republican party. i could go on. conservatives like me can only now watch and wait in horror to see the awful legacy and the moral destruction that donald trump is going to have on the party that i once loved. and that he high jacked to win

the white house, but i can tell you this today. trump is leading this horror show, but you know who i hold accountable? lindsey graham. mitch mcconnell, ken mccarthy. >> steve. >> steve king and all the republicans on capitol hill that are ducking their heads. they are the coconspirators complicit by their actions or more importantly, by their silence. the party of lincoln and the party of reagan, they're suffering through a massive moral collapse. it is sad and it is dangerous for this country and i believe it is the beginning of the end of my old party. willie. >> joe, well said and i think there are a lot of people conservatives, not the ones you've talked about there but conservatives out in public life yesterday, writers and thinkers who have come out against the president declaring a national emergency which he continues to threaten to do and against steve

king. supporters donating to the candidate who's announced a primary run against steve king so it's not happening in washington and the capitol hill in that building and you listed all the names, but there are people like you and many other conservatives that are standing up over what they've seen the last couple of days. today is the first missed payday for federal workers and contractors who are either furloughed or not being paid in the partial government shutdown a standoff now enters day 21 and joins as the longest in history. yesterday protests across the country including in washington, d.c., chicago, detroit, new york, kentucky and utah where the internal revenue service is one of the largest employers in that area and three quarters of the work force is furloughed. the head of the fbi agents association said nearly 5,000 special agents, attorneys and

professional staff are currently furloughed resulting in reduced staffing in what they call critical functions that support field operations. there were a few more defections as the house approved two appropriations bills yesterday. 12 republicans vote to reopen the housing and urban development while some vote to help food stamps and the fda. the administration has begun laying the ground work for a declaration of national emergency to bypass congress to fund the border wall. it's certain to be challenged in court, but it is a shutdown exit plan that would let president trump claim victory on his campaign pledge in order to sign a bill to reopen the government. president trump said yesterday he is leaning toward that national emergency. >> i have the absolute right to declare a national emergency, the lawyers have so advised me. i'm not prepared to do that yet

but if i have to, i will. if this doesn't work out, probably i will do it. i would almost say definitely. >> so joe, i'll let you tackle that one. also just want to sprinkle in nbc news and others saying the president is looking to diverting funds to places like california after the wildfires. places like puerto rico, florida, money that's going to rebuild those places toward now building the wall. >> building the wall and jon hy heilema heilemann, there's no doubt the 1976 act is very broad, but there's also no doubt that donald trump never understands that when he thinks out loud, and says if i don't get my way in political negotiations, i'll just declare a national emergency. that does not fall under the act and one seriously doubts that if

harry truman couldn't compel the steel industry to not strike at time of war, donald trump will not be able to declare a national emergency because he's not getting his way with nancy pelosi and chuck schumer. >> yeah. >> courts will chew that up and spit that out and people like lindsey graham will welcome llo idiots. >> let's hope. joe, you're a lawyer although a simple country lawyer as you often say but i'm not. >> a dumb country lawyer. >> so i hope you're right. it would seem if you thought about the precedent, you thauout about the history. that there's a good cause to be hopeful, that if the president does go ahead with this that the courts will stop him. the courts have changed overtime and i'm hopeful and i'm equally hopeful that we'll never have to test the courts on this matter. i mean, look, i think all the things you said earlier and the

analysis all strike me as right in the kind of obvious way that we're seeing the republican party and we're seeing trump abuse his power if he goes ahead with this in the way you suggest. but take a little bit further in this sense. all the things that are bad about the notion of declaring a national emergency in this context are problematic in the extreme. but they're all the more so over the fact that the entire thing is built on a huge lie. which is not merely usurping his power, going beyond the constitution, going beyond legislative mandate and diverting funds from things where there are actually people suffering, puerto rico, california, other places, but the whole thing is -- would be predicated on the notion that there is a national emergency on the border when of course there's not. >> still ahead on "morning joe," if the border is a national emergency, what about health

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you can control from anywhere on any device. and it protects you with 24/7 professional monitoring. i guess we're sleeping here tonight. xfinity home. simple. easy. awesome. call, go online or demo in an xfinity store today. conservatives you're talking about behind the president joe, declaring a national emergency for the wall. it writes it would strain the limits of his executive authority if he did that. the ed doors of the national review call it another unwelcome step in america's long march toward unilateral government by the executive. when the next democratic president declares a national emergency over gun violence and takes executive actions to curtail gun purchases you can thank the people urging donald

trump to do the same with the mexican border. >> i am opposed to using national defense funds for anything else. and several prominent republican senators spoke publicly against the idea. >> i don't want to see a declaration of national emergency. i think that's an action that would be taken in the most circumstances. >> advise against that as a bad precedence even if the president's got authority to do it, i'd advise against it. >> tomorrow the national security emergency might be, you know, climate change, so let's seize fossil fuel plants or something. >> susan, there are obvious are some people speaking out but i want to step back and imagine the thoughts of people who live in puerto rico, who have family there, hearing the president potentially moving disaster relief funds from places like

puerto rico to build his wall that most people don't want. i mean, this is incredible at this point, the way he's running over people with a lack of care or humanity. >> and he's shown over and over that he doesn't have that humanity and there is a real crisis at the border, one that recreated. there are parents and children still separated. there are people who are not being processed properly because at point of entry, seeking amnesty legally because this president wants to lessen the amount of judges there is a deterrent so people are in these horrible camps. there is a crisis for millions of americans who will, because of those 800,000 people who will not be getting paychecks today and i just can't help but think that every time there's people involved the president just shows he has no heart. he has no empathy and to heilemann's point, he's

absolutely right. the president is creating a -- has a political emergency and is trying to find, using the national emergency as a way to get himself out of it and i hope more and more republicans do speak out about it and join a lawsuit if he does do it, because the one thing that i find so shocking are all these members of, republicans who are willing to see their most important thing that they have which is their influences on a legislative leader to the president. it goes to joe's earlier point about why the republican party is just falling apart because you have a bunch of people who are throwing away their principles and not willing to stand up for what's right. they're just trying to avoid a primary. >> coming up on "morning joe," you know the famous phrase, the buck stops with everybody? >> i don't think. >> no, i don't know that one. >> how donald trump's view on presidential responsibilities is a far cry from his predecessors. "morning joe" is back in a moment. i hear it in the background and she's watching too, saying

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the president, whoever he is, has to decide. he can't pass the buck to anybody. >> the buck stops here.

>> i do believe that the buck stops here. >> it stops with me. i am the one who is ultimately accountable to the american people. >> ultimately the buck stops with me. >> does the buck stop with you for this government shutdown? >> the buck stops with everybody. >> everything is just so different. >> everything is so different and you know, rick tyler, this is the same man who a week and a half ago -- >> everybody but me. >> but a couple weeks ago he was saying -- declared on national television in front of chuck schumer and nancy pelosi and the world, hey, this is my shutdown, i take full credit for this. it's going to be my responsibility. i'm not going to blame you, chuck, this is my shutdown and here we are a couple weeks later saying the buck stops with everybody. >> i've run at of words to describe this behavior. think about all the people at all the rallies when he says

mexico is going to pay for the wall and now he says he never said that. >> can i ask you, our friends and our relatives who voted with us for george w. bush twice and some for ronald reagan, some for george h.w. bush, for mitt romney, who are these people who hear him lying, know he's lying and still blindly defend him and attack all those who just show the tape and say look, he's lying. >> grow knoyou know, i watched people, many whom i've expected and thought had integrity twist themselves with pretzel logic, that's a steely dan reference. >> it is a good reference, may minute. >> but it's unbelievable that you show facts about what he

said and juxtapose it with what he's saying now and some say it's not what it is or what it seemed and i get into these discussions about i understand what trump was trying to say. can he use his words? can he use english, can he just be very clear? but he can't. he can't take responsibility for his own actions. what i believe is going to happen with the shutdown now, there won't be a negotiated settlement to the shutdown. he will either declare a national emergency which will go to the courts and just like dhak daka, he will find emergency funding that's designed for other emergencies like california. the administration according to the washington post has identified $13.9 billion, more than twice of what he's asking to divert to wall funding and that of course will get challenged and go to court too, but it will give him an

opportunity to get out of this and i believe that's -- or my republican friends on the hill will actually join with the democrats and reopen the government. i see that as a least likely possibility. >> coming up on mrc"morning joe >> all great change comes at the dinner table. so tomorrow night at the kitchen i hope the talking will begin and children, if your parents haven't told you what it means to be an american, let them know and nail them on it. that would be a very american thing to do. >> ronald reagan delivered his farewell address to the nation. we'll look at that moment through the lens of today. >> what a jarring difference about what ronald reagan said about the statue of liberty, about immigration, about refugees, about this country and what donald trump is saying today could not be any more different. >> "morning joe" is coming right back. g joe" is coming right back

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i've spoken to the shining city all my political life but i don't know if i ever quite communicated what i saw when i said it but in my mind it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind swept, god blessed and teeming with all people of all kinds living in harmony and peace. a city that hummed and if there had the city walls the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. that's how i saw it and see it still. >> that was president ronald reagan in his farewell address to the nation 30 years ago tonight. joining us now, historian, author of "the soul of america"

john meacham. he writes about that speech in a new piece for the "new york times." also with us, could ummist and associate of the washington post, eugene robinson and professor at the university of texas, victoria soto. >> jon meacham and ronald reagan spoke of a wall. if there has to be a wall erected, doors that let people through, anybody that has the will and the desire to get here. tell us how different ronald reagan's speech was and his vision of america was in 1989 and where we are 30 years later with donald trump. >> it's kind of remarkable that the two men speak the same tongue. you know, it's tricky to -- i think that the speeches that

were given in this week from the oval office and president reagan's were rendered in english today. reagan had many faults, we'll go ahead and stipulate that and we can move on. but he believed in this american openness, a kind of big heartedness, that for all of his faults and all of the nation's faults was about pressing ahead, moving west ward metaphorically and literally sometimes, and he absolutely believed as he said in the speech that it's just -- they're remarkable words written by our colleague, remarkable words that he said all the pilgrims from all the lost places are hurdling through the darkness toward home. and home was america. home is where we had lit this lamp and could rise on your own

merit as far oz your merit would take you. and that's a big hearted, open armed big spirited vision and it's remarkable to me -- the speech was per lektfectly lovel real time. a couple of luke warm pieces in the "new york times." but as so often happens with documents like that, it looms larger in retrospect now because you read it and you realize how far we've fallen and how far we have to go back. >> especially for a party that claims to be the party of ronald reagan, to be the party of abraham lincoln. they couldn't be any further from that vision. there are some people, some of our friends that suggest that things have changed since 1989, the facts on the ground have changed since 1989 and what ronald reagan said in 1989 wouldn't be said in 2019 when in fact, jon, the more things

change, the more they stay the same. the same arguments donald trump is making in 2019, racists and b bigots have been arguing that their wave to immigration in america should be the last. whether it was the germans or the irish or whoever the next group that was coming. >> absolutely. and i talked to another mutual friend of ours, craig shurley and he was very clear that with when you think about reagan in totality, his views were informed powerfully by the cold war. by the people fleeing the iron curtain but he had also been the governor of california and he's talk bd about how he believed in what we would now call amnesty, that people who had been here for a long time, put down roots,

he was not going to send back out. he was the architect of nafta in many ways. he believed in this open vision of the country, not just because it was the right thing, but conservatives as you well know used to believe in what the wall street journal believed free men and free markets. believed that the free flow of commerce, the free flow of ideas and people created an adam smith like world of prosperity and that was the vision in which reagan was operating. and i think -- i think this speech now when you watch it, it really ranks now with george washington's, with dwight eisenhower's of speeches where there's a warning, there's a real watch word offered to posterity in a way that i don't think we necessarily realized when he delivered it 30 years ago today down in the oval office. >> willie, you know, what's so

interesting is that it reflects the stark difference between ronald reagan's sunny optimism that america was that city shining brightly on the hill and if anybody wants to compete with america, bring it on, we're going to beat you with open markets and free men and free women. you combine that with donald trump's pessimism, he's const t constantconstan constantly preaching that we're in a world of scarcity, that people are ripping off the united states and we're just not strong enough to compete on the global stage anymore, that we've got to erect barriers to quote, make america great again. >> during his inaugural address he was talking about carnage in america. gene robinson, it's been fascinating how many times we've pulled out clips of ronald

reagan or george h.w. bush and compared that version of republicanism, not long ago we played the speech of bob dole at the acceptance speech where he said in stark contrast what president trump said, if you believe this republican party the not open to all races and religions the exits are clearly marked. i encourage you to leave now. >> today we have steve king. >> right. >> we have steve king embracing white supremacy that's today's republican party. would any of those earlier republicans be welcome in today's republican party? i think the answer would be no, they would be considered snow flakes. >> the point out about the reagan speech, the world was a -- a dirtier, more brutish nastier place then actually. i mean, if you look at all the sort of indicators of quality of

life around the world, the -- the world was worse objectively worse then than it is now for most people. yet we had this sort of embracing, well coming vision as expressed by reagan and believed by most americans and yet now we have donald trump. it's an astonishing fall. >> you know, jon meacham, sitting here watching that clip it does something to you. it snaps you back into a distant time across all the dust of the years past and you realize that it was a tv visual incarnation of fdr's fire side chats to the nation in a sense and you realize suddenly that despied whatever disagreements you may have had with president reagan

during the reagan administration with some of their policies that the primary -- one of the primary tasks and an important one of any president is the ability to communicate to the people of this country some sense of optimism, some sense of the future that we are all going to endure, go through and hopefully prosper with and we've lost that. >> we've lost it and there is no lost and found at the moment. and one of the things, you're right about the dust of the years and the distance and one of the things that i really want to emphasize and i believe as strongly as i believe anything is we can learn from moments like this despite the fact that we have a natural sentimental reaction to them. this conversation is not based on nostalgia. it is based on a real understanding that ronald reagan was a tumultuous political

figure. not everybody agreed with him though he did carry 49 states in 1984. imagine carrying 49 states now. on the same day, the news in the paper, in the "new york times," the transcript was covered. a very tough column about how reagan had a great first term but the second term was regrettable and now we look at him in this kind of fdr sense as someone who even though you might disagree with him strongly represented a part of the country -- the country as a bhoel whole in a way that everyone could acknowledge his heart was in the right place. and i think that's what we are missing. 40% of this country couldn't say franklin roosevelt's name. they called him that man. people wanted reagan impeached because of i ran contra. we're not being again, nostalgic

exercise. nick at night meets cspan in the morning. put that aside, but this is a real look at words spoken by an american president 30 years ago that are diametrically opposite by the words that could be spoken by the president of the united states today. and that does force us to think what happened and if you don't like what's happened, how do you fix it? >> so victoria, if ronald reagan's speech just those words, if they captured the american spirit at the very least no matter what you thought of his policies of goodness and inclusion and love, what -- how would you characterize what donald trump's trip to the border yesterday is and also the words he's using and the move he may make to use disaster relief funds some that should be going to puerto rico to pay for this wall? what is he saying to the world

and to people desperately seeking asylum here? >> right. so mika, when we talk about the wall and the way trump talks about the wall, i think there are two dimensions here. the first is the siideological one. we are talking about the optimism that we saw in the words of ronald reagan. where's the wall? if we reectothat wall it's basically placing a tombstone and saying you know what, everything we believed for it's gone, it's dead, it's buried. then there's the practical side of it. there's the economic pain that we are inflicting on our country because it's not just the 5 billion that president trump is asking for. there's a much larger cost to quote unquote the wall. there is the maintenance of the wall. the legal battles of the

imminent do main for the wall. there is the commerce that's going to be hurt on the border region and the wall that's already been built isn't the easiest part. so the estimates are given are way under what it's going to cost. so we're hurting our country morally and also in the pocketbook of every single one of us. >> i just want you to expand a little bit on one of the points you just made. this imminent domain part. republicans, conservatives are always in opposition of the notion of the federal government can just take private land through the use of imminent domain and yet for some reason in this one instance apparently it's okay. talk about that ideological inconsistency. >> i think there's a larger hypocrisy because here in texas it's the come and take it state. our land, we will fight you for

it. but what we see is the president saying, hey, americans on therd boor, we don't care about your rights. we have a bigger issue which is erecting this tombstone which is the border wall and it's going to be so costly because texans have been fighting this for a long time going back to the secure fence act of 2007. we still haven't resolved all the legal issues there. so we have again, the moral piece of it. you're trying to take my land and the fiscal piece of it. there's one case of a family on the border. the land has been in their family since the late 1700s. it was a spanish land grant and these folks are saying you are not taking my land away and we are going to fight tooth and nail and you are going to see that with every border dweller. >> all right. thank you very much for being on this morning. our next guest say watch out, richard nixon, donald trump may be about to take your spot

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to continue the fight through the months ahead for my personal vindication. almost totally absorb the time and attention of both the president and the congress. in a period when our entire focus should be on the wrote issues of peace abroad and prosperity without inflation at home. therefore, i shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow. >> the 1974 resignation of president richard nixon certainly marked the defining moment for the nation. not just in watergate but in the social shifts that were under way. and there are clear parallels to today which we can't deny. joining us now, professors of history at princeton university kevin cruz and julyian salazar. the new book is "fault lines,

history of the united states since 1974." which traces the lines of division in contemporary america that has led to our present state of a fairs. >> kevin, let's start with you. you look at the years between 1968 and 1974 and it really was a crack in time. i remember campaigning, my first week campaigning. i told the story before. my first day. my parents said so what did you find out out there? i said i found out everybody's still living in 1968 and you're either john wayne or jane fonda. the two never meet. that was 25 years ago. talk about how '68 to '74 split the country the way it did and how it still explains today. >> that was a fracture across the board in terms of what's going on in politics. '68, you've got humphrey as the democratic nominee.

you've got mccarthy on the left. you've got wallace as the independent. richard nixon at the time playing it down the middle. the country's divided over issues of civil rights, the vietnam war, feminism and gay rights. the country is really in a lot of ways coming apart in 1968. i'm not sure it's come back together since. >> i love how kevin brings up the fact that nixon actually was playing it down the middle. nixon was a moderate. people like my dad who loved nixon, they didn't really love nixon because of his policies. they loved nixon because he was a staunch anti-communist that fought against the east coast establishment, that fought against the liberal media, and, you know, he -- nixon was on my dad's side. and that's why my dad stayed with him until the tapes came out. how much is that like donald trump today? trump's not a conservative. he's not even a traditional

republican. but people still stay with him because he's adopted their tribe. >> well, there's a little bit of that. nixon did try to promote this idea that we today call conservative populism and argue the republicans could be the party of the common person. but on the other hand, he was trying to build a coalition. nixon very much imagined a grand republican coalition that could almost replicate what fdr achieved in the 1930s. it looked in '72 when he's re-elected like he was going to do it. that's a fundamental difference. president trump played to partisanship. i don't think he's trying to build the same kind of coalition nixon was at least attempting to do. >> kevin, you guys write in the book about the shattering, in the 1960s, of this idea that yes there are extremes on both sides but there is a solid middle ground holding us together.

that idea starts to go out the window when you trace it up through the 2000 election, the financial crisis, afghanistan, iraq, katrina, everything in between. how are we seeing the results of that, you know, almost half a century ago today? >> it's remarkable transformation. there was always at least these kind of forces pushing us together, right. a strong union moving the economy, the mainstream media. a few newspapers which set the pace for the media discussion. there was an instinct to cross the aisle. ever since the late '60s, it's gone the other direction. we've had an incredible fracturing across the way in terms of the economy, in terms of politics. media's a great example. just look at the proliferation of all these different stations on tv, media sources. so there's eyisolation here. there's not an urge to go back

to that common ground. >> you know when we're talking about media and different networks, social media, where people self-select. i was talking to somebody very involved in a past presidency. who said you look back to '74 and you wonder, if nixon had fox news, if nixon had twitter, if nixon had the devices at his fingertips, probably would have survived watergate. it does bring up pretty important point. and you're going to tell us what that important point is right now. >> absolutely. i will. that's why i'm here. watergate really did.

vietnam, plus watergate. the media did play an effective watchdog role. ed an ver sarallism. in many ways, may be part of what gave us the return of partisan media. had been the norm in the 18th and 19th centuries. we're basically living in the media world. i don't know whether this is -- this is probably not cheerful for a friday but the media world that gave us the civil wavr. it's not -- it's not new. walter lipman in 1922 wrote a famous book called the public opinion. he said instead of seeing and then defining, we define and then we see. it's what i want to ask the professors about. fault lines presupposes, as you were saying, that there was a moment of common ground before

there was a split in the ground. if you had to put your finger on the moment, say, in the 20th century that was the moment of consensus, what would that be? >> well, i mean, i think we august it wasn't a total consensus. in the period of the '40s and '50s there's lots of divisions over issues like race. so the federal government was a big force in the american society during the '50s and '60s. there was a lot of confidence in different parts, what the government could do. unions were also really important as a thread that held together different aspects of the workforce. i think not only define why you had a vibrant middle class but also why some of the fissures in america society moved in the direction they move today. >> if you believe one of the greatest stories ever told is the epic story of america, its

foundation, its forming and its growth and you open to any page. i opened to page 74. bobby rigs and the tennis match. you think about the expansion of the role of women. >> which is a huge change in the fabric of society. it's interesting because american history is scratching and it's full of conflict. and, you know, we reached that crescendo before the civil war. are we reaching another crescendo? i mean, on that scale do you think? >> i'm not sure we're there yet. do you think the tensions are pretty severe? and there's things that lurk in the media society that keep

propelling the divisions forward. we have to deal with that if we're ever going to have a serious talk about finding areas of consensus again. >> the new book is "fault lines." thank you, both. wow. a lot to get to today. we'll see you monday morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks, mika, thanks, joe. i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to cover today starting with a national emergency. president trump looking to flex his executive muscles in order to get his wall out of congress.