to tv on any device. beyond low-res surveillance video. to crystal clear hd video monitoring from anywhere. gig-fueled apps that exceed expectations. comcast business. beyond fast. that is a wrap for me on this hour of "weekends with alex witt." see you at noon eastern. now time for "up with david gura." this is "up with david gura." glad to be back. a huge story in "the new york times." federal law enforcement so concerned about president trump's behavior they began to investigate whether he, the president of the united states, was working on russia's behalf against american interests.

>> historic decision of opening up a counterintelligence investigation into the president. is the president tied to the adversary? >> what triggered that investigation? president trump's decision to fire fbi director james comey. >> i was going to fire comey. my decision. >> you had made the decision before they came in the room? >> i was going to fire comey. >> we're going to dig deep into that new reporting which casts the russia investigation in a whole new light. plus, it is day 22 and we are in uncharted territory. this is the longest government shutdown in u.s. history. >> now the easy solution is for me to call a national emergency. >> in case the president does do that, democrats are gearing up to fight that declaration in court. >> that's not democracy. that's dictatorship. >> the 11th of january and what constitutes a national emergency. >> it's the easy way out.

>> not only can i do national emergency, many say i am national emergency. >> up with me this hour, covering the white house for the ap, a former federal employee, tim o'brien is the executive editor of bloomberg opinion and the author of the book "trump nation: the art of being the donald," and the anchor and executive producer from npr. i want to start with the bombshell piece that landed overnight that has the president tweeting this morning. as i mentioned "the new york times" reporting the fbi decided to look into whether president trump was working on russia's behalf when he fired fbi director james comey. according to "the times" investigators had to consider whether the president's own actions posed a threat to national security. this was a counterintelligence investigation, and this

reporting fundamentally changes our understanding of the russia investigation. that's where i want to start with you. you've been following the ins and outs for so long. now this counter intelligence investigation. explain the significance of it, what we learned in "the times" overnight. >> i think it falls under the category of shocking but not surprising, which is true with so many things about trump. we've learned so much over the past couple of years that -- two years -- that the things, to many of us, trump has acted like someone compromised by russia, right? we've seen it publicly in his kowtowing to putin, his acceptance of putin's explanations as opposed to his own intelligence agencies. there are so many examples. and this was sort of a feeling of, wow, our president is acting like russia has something on him. why is that? this takes it back to the beginning and it tells us that it isn't just a hunch we're all

having but something the fbi took seriously and seriously thought, and that is what i think is the significance. the sort of standard, the threshold for them to open an official counterintelligence investigation on the president of the united states is so high that i don't think people necessarily understand what a high bar that would be. it cannot happen willy-nilly. it doesn't happen because of one agent. it doesn't happen because of a hunch. it didn't happen just because he fired comey. i don't know what information they had, but i know just when you prosecute any public official -- >> true. >> when you investigate any public official, i know the sort of bureaucracy you have to go through to make that happen. so this would have been just enormous. so, to me, that's the significance. >> john, we're talking about the president of the united states. the sourcing of this is interesting. "the times" got their hands on congressional interviews, so

this begs the question of who knew about this and when? we remember you going to that helsinki question asking a question of the president when he met privately without any staff with vladimir putin for well over an hour's time. help us understand that. who knew what and when? >> certainly on the helsinki summit we do not know what was said in their two-hour private meeti meeting. that remains a question that hangs over a lot of this. this is -- the headline is so striking. it can't be said enough. this is a first for the president. >> i'm going to interrupt just to hold up the headline of the paper. fbi investigated if trump worked for the russians. as you say, this is a first for the presidency that something like this would happen, the fbi would feel it would need to open this investigation. it is now, as we understand it, part of special counsel mueller's ongoing probe which, of course, adds new light to that as well. it must be said the white house has denied this, sarah sanders

put out a strongly worded statement saying this was, again, bashing james comey as a bad actor and suggesting it was people around him ginning up something that was real. >> james comey, total sleaze. lying james comey. all the greatest hits. >> usually he saves these for the encore but is opening up with the hits this morning. >> all four. >> and probably more to come. this is, again, historical perspective how significant it is, but it also casts light the battles this white house is battling, sort of facing every day. it is part of it and we, of course, don't know how "the times" came across the story. credit to them, it's terrific reporting. whether this came from the newly installed democratic house or not, i think the white house should be prepared -- i know they're taking steps to prepare -- that now that the democrats have control, it's going to be leak after leak after leak in an effort to win these public relation battles to put the white house even further

on its heels as the mueller probe is heading to the second-year anniversary. >> tim, "the washington post" had a great tweet that there's a forecast for snow with a high chance of tweets today in washington, d.c. let's talk about the catalyst here. the firing of james comey as identified by the "new york times." the interview my colleague lester holt did with the president of the united states in which he gave his rationale and the draft memo explaining that's why he was going to be doing this. your reaction to all of this. >> to go one step beyond what mimi said, it isn't surprising. i don't know it's shocking to me. it's an important story. haven't we sort of suspected from the very beginning that the collusion piece and the obstruction piece of this were deeply intertwined, they weren't separate strands. i think what's important -- >> there are people who disagree with that, right? >> well, they can't now and that's not a matter of opinion. it's in the fact pattern. what's important about that is goes to the heart of people who

have criticized the mueller investigation from the beginning about being overreached, that he's exceeded the mandate the justice department gave him to explore what occurred here. and what we're seeing now is the learning process the fbi itself went through, first seeing russian intrusions in the election and then indications a lot of it targeted hillary clinton. lo and behold there appeared to be people in the trump administration who are participating in it. and to the point they think trump himself is an actor in the event and pose as national security event. that is very, very important. the other thing that i think comes out of this trump's defenders have routinely invoked the powers of the presidency to say that he couldn't have obstructed here. but obstruction of justice occurs if you're trying to underminl an investigation. it occurs if you're trying to tamper with an investigation. article 2 does gin't give the president the right to willy-nilly upend the rule of law. >> so important. >> and you're seeing this with the wall argument as well. he is trying to reach into the

powers of the congress to control the purse. he is trying to unilaterally subsume all of these powers in the federal government under himself. in the wall example to get his own way. in this event it's to subvert justice. this story will make it very hard for barr and other trump defenders to continue to say he's simply exercising the partners granted him under the constitution. >> tim brings up the wall. we are talking about this, talking about the russia investigation again. you listen to what nancy pelosi has said. the shutdown is an excuse not to be talking about robert mueller's investigation, not to be talking about the russia investigation. your reaction to that, the political backdrop under which all of this is unfolding. >> oh, my gosh, that's kind of a daily for me just because of the fact that, you know, the wall is not new. there have been sections -- bill

clinton actually pushed through a lot of this. the conversation about the wall is very depressing as the president says that's the only way to get border security and on this network it has been repeated this is the time when the least amount of undocumented immigrants are actually crossing, that people are presenting themselves are legally presenting and asking for asylum. so there's no crisis in terms of what the president said that this country has been overrun by people he calls illegal. he continues to create this. it's a normalization of a crisis that he has imagined in his mind. but, for me, you held up "the new york times," why is this not double -- >> five columns across. >> absolutely. i understand what you're saying that we're not surprised, but at the same time there's a kind of normalization, oh, well, here is another side of the story and we're going to get all worked up about this because it's huge that the fbi is doing this. by the way, important to know that the fbi has become more

white, less diverse since 9/11. so the element of kind of white men in power at the fbi deciding to look at this president, i think, is a really important moment. >> let me play off that, mimi. we will talk to the reporter who broke this piece ahead of its publication. he will talk about his read of it. he brings up this distinction between criminal investigations and counterintelligence. marie is talking about changes since 9/11 and an argument ben makes in his piece things have changed since then, those walls, those silos have broken down since. the degree to which law enforcement did change as a result of this and this is an example of those changes. >> oh, absolutely. i saw it firsthand in the u.s. attorney's office. they merged what was a terrorism unit with other units because terrorism now became something where you start an investigation based on counterintelligence but it leads to underlying possible

criminal activity. i think the point here that ben makes in detail in his article, that tom is making, really this idea that the act of obstruction here, the firing of comey, what was being looked at is was that part of this effort by russia really through trump to subvert what was going on in our country first through the elections and then through getting rid of comey who was leading the investigation into it. and that is the ultimate merging of counterintelligence and criminal because it would be both a huge counterintelligence threat or problem, and it would be criminal and it does knock out really, you know, with one fell swoop, the idea of this defense that this is the proper use of executive power. >> as i mentioned, ben will join us as we continue to look at the ramifications. meanwhile, this is what paychecks look like for hundreds

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comcast business. beyond fast. welcome back to "up." this is the longest shutdown in u.s. history and lawmakers, well, they have left washington for the weekend. yesterday was supposed to be payday for hundreds of thousands of federal workers and it was

not. and president trump continues to weigh his options. >> if they can't do it, i will declare a national emergency. i have the absolute right to do it. i'll be sued. it will be brought to the ninth circuit and we'll probably lose there, too, and go to the supreme court. >> nbc news reporting the president is now considering using disaster money including funds set aside for puerto rico to build that wall on the u.s./mexico border. house speaker nancy pelosi stands between the president and his campaign promise and this is what she's had to say. >> federal workers will not be receiving their paychecks. the president seems to be insensitive to that. he thinks maybe they could just ask their father for more money, but they can't. >> with negotiations at a standstill everyday americans are paying the price. >> i shouldn't have to pawn my belongings to pay for medication

when i do have a job. i'm just not able to do that job. >> we've discussed should i get a second job, but, unfortunately, i can't because he can't be in daycare with his health issues. >> it's infuriating. i feel stabbed in the back. i'm trying to do the best i can for our public lands and my feet have been kicked out beneath me. >> fbi irs and tsa agents are not getting paid because of the shutdown although we learned tsa agents will get a $500 award, aircraft safety inspections and food inspections, immigration courts are at a standstill, and the president, who proudly calls himself a deal maker has yet to strike a deal. >> i've watched the politicians, i've dealt with them all my life. if you can't make a good deal with a politician then there's something wrong with you. >> that was back in 2015.

here we are 22 days in, where are we going. nothing much happening in congress. the president holed up in the white house, nothing on his schedule over the weekend as well. is there any talk? >> there's a sense of paralysis that's set in. we've seen the president use the trappings of the office to make his case. during the holidays when he stayed in washington and the democrats left that was a missed opportunity. we barely saw him other than the tweets. the president had very few events. we saw him have his oval office address. he thought he came off as lifeless and boring and flat. he didn't like the setting, the straightahead camera look. this week's trip to the border was a trip he made reluctantly. i don't think that will change

any minds. he's probably right about that. here we have yesterday the most tangible and most painful sign yet of this shutdown, the workers are receiving pay stubs literally have zeros on them. this is a president that has not been part of his argument. he has struggled to show empathy when he's been called to respond to storms or some of the mass shootings and this is a moment he has made claims. the white house has not provided evidence of those conversations but, again, it speaks to his inability to sort of frame this in human terms. right now the white house -- there is some momentum building for this defensemen largs. congress is tapping the brakes. right now we're nowhere. there's no reason to think this

will end anytime soon. >> can i ask a question? i don't know if i missed it. sometimes i'm deep in writing. has there been a poll that has looked at the percentage of federal workers who voted for president trump who are now not receiving a paycheck and where they stand? to me what we do know -- and this is where i don't know if it engages with federal workers, the counties that were the least diverse in the united states were the ones that voted for donald trump. so they're believing what he's saying about needing a wall to stop this invasion. now that the push has come to shove and they're not getting paid in order to build the wall that they voted for donald trump to support, where are they now? >> i don't know if there's precise polling but the president has characterized the workers impacted by this are democrats and they didn't support me anyway.

he painted they all live inside the district, the beltway. the vast majority impacted by the shutdown live outside of washington including some states and some counties that, as you say, would have voted for trump. there's no question this shutdown is impacting some of his own supporters whether or not they are actually for the shutdown. >> a brilliant piece looking at trump, the deal maker. we saw that clip from 2015. he went in saying i can do this in the private sector, as effectively if not more so. broadly speaking what has he miscalculated? >> well, i think it's the same thing when he was in the private sector. he lacks actually all of the strengths to be a good deal maker. he's not intellectually sophisticated, not patient. and he has routinely taken to the cleaners on his most significant deals by people across the table to him who are

better informed, more patient, and really put him in a corner. >> the point you make in this piece he wasn't so hot in the private sector as well. >> this idea when he campaigned that he was an epic deal maker who was going to bring business know how to washington was a complete farce. everyone knows he's something of a cartoon figure. in the broader business landscape he's not -- he wasn't steve jobs. he wasn't henry ford. >> he was the guy who had all the bankruptcies. >> he had six corporate. that's the other irony when he's talking about the federal workers is he's a trust fund baby. he was born with a silver foot in his mouth and has no empathy or understanding for what average people go through confronting things like not able to buy groceries, pay a mortgage

or the utilities bill. they completely escape his purview. >> the idea federal workers are telling trump go ahead and we want the wall is a complete lie. there is no way that if someone who worked for the department of justice or the fbi tried to reach out to give their opinion on something, how would they do that? they would be fired. even if there are people in the federal government who support the wall, and there very well may be, none of them support a shutdown. i lived through -- i was in the u.s. attorney's office during several shutdowns much shorter than this. not getting paid for 99% of the people who work in the federal government is so stressful. this started around the

holidays. people returning christmas gifts. you can't even believe the stress. >> and who is essential and who is not. >> exactly, that's right. prosecutors and fbi agents are deemed essential. they did not get paid on friday, though. what it means that they're essential, they have more of a chance of getting the back pay. they can't even take a sick day. if you take a sick day, you're not essential anymore. the workers deemed nonessential is demoralizing. >> we'll talk about why some are begging the president for a national emergency to end the shutdown plus the dozens of national emergencies that are still in effect in the u.s. today. that's next. today. that's next.

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we will not engage in appea peasement. security cannot be bought by appeasement. >> harry truman declaring a state of emergency 26 years after that pronouncement president ford signed the national emergency act and that

legislation authorizes presidents to seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel and control the lives of the united states citizens. there have been dozens of national emergencies since 1976. and behind me here a list of 31 of them still in effect. it takes a joint resolution in both houses of congress plus the president's signature to overturn national emergencies. let me turn to you first. we talked about this. you wrote a great piece for the wire about this. we're in this circumstance where we have the president saying time and time again i have the power to do this, but he's dancing around whether or not he's going to do it, seeing a bit of a divide in the republican party, those saying he should go for it. this is an exit ramp of sorts. others saying perhaps rightfully you head down this path it will change things forever.

>> we're seeing a real schism within the white house and the republican party as to what to do. the republicans controlled both houses of congress, they made clear they have no interest in giving him that money here. the white house thought when pelosi secured the speakership, the president does have a fondness for her and thinks they can strike bargains. pelosi has made it very clear. they're in a corner right here. the president, we saw him yesterday, he said publicly we want congress to handle this. that is his preference in private as well. there is a growing sense behind closed doors that they might need to make this decision for a national emergency. there's some pushback within the white house about that. jared kushner is suggesting let's slow down and not go there unless we absolutely have to. the president is being counselled by outside allies that this is the way to do it.

lindsey graham met with the president yesterday, put out a statement saying do this now. the democrats are only saying no because they hate you, i believe was the exact phrase, and that this is good policy and you should just do it. but there are other republicans who do worry about this. this is taking away powers that should belong to congress. and, also, as some lawmakers told my colleagues yesterday, if you do this now, aren't you opening the door for some future democratic president to declare a national emergency for one of his or her campaign promises, some liberal idea that they, of course, would not want. so there is a real bind here. the white house's office has searched the declaration possibility and is a little more dubious. as a final point just that the president, though, sees this, that if it goes to the courts -- kind of hinted at it -- that they would face a legal challenge and would be a big

fight. he doesn't necessarily mind it. the fight is more important. >> a tweet from chris murphy, senator chris murphy. hey republicans, some day soon there will be a democratic president and once you open the national emergency bottle the genie doesn't go back in. bet you could build a single payer health care system faster than a wall with mexico. just saying. i will turn to you and i will bet that if all of us around the table you've been to the border the most. and what you've had this week, as jonathan mentioned a moment ago, the president trying to make his case, first in the oval office sitting behind the desk to the american people during this prime time address and going to the border for a photo opportunity there in front of some pieces of the wall on the border. any sense that it's working, as he talks about this being a crisis, invents and uses figures about terrorists coming over the border that's having sticking power with those who were not in the 30 plus percent of his base. >> i would venture to say no. one of the top ten safest cities

in the united states of america is where he went. if what the president is saying we know there are segments there is no wall, clearly he has not been to the border very often and understands the geography. we know where they're coming in and where they're taping up the women's mouths and bringing them over. if you know why are the border patrol not there actually? why not? so it is a very strange argument that he has made in his mind and, of course, now he's repeating it all the time. without a wall there is no security. what we have to remember continually this is the lowest point of immigrants coming across undocumented. most people are actually coming by plane. they're overstaying their visas. they have been approved to come into the united states. there is not a scary threat. we are not taking over. this is not what's happening. i just continue to go back to what is this all about? it is a wall that is saying you stay out. you stay out. i was born in mexico.

it's basically saying to me, we don't want your kind. specifically we don't want your kind. we have to remember to bring it back. that is what this wall is going to symbolize and symbolizes. we're better than you, we don't want you. everyone says we have to have security, but that's not what this wall is about. this wall is about sending that message. >> we'll leave it there on that point. coming up robert mule aellm report. does the departure signal the rest of the game could be played without an umpire and to continue the tortured baseball metaphors president trump's latest pitch for a border wall. here is stephen colbert's take on the steel slats. >> mr. president, steel slats are not the metal bars we want you behind. clearer. and stay c. most patients who saw 90% clearer skin at 28 weeks stayed clearer through 48 weeks. tremfya® may lower your ability to fight infections and may increase your risk of infections. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis.

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back to "up." i'm david gura. february will be a pivotal month for the president, playing defense like never before. reports robert mueller may submit his report as soon as mid-february. before that previous for some must-see tv as the former fixer michael cohen is scheduled to testify in open session before the house oversight and government reform committee. "the new york times" says the hearing threatens to further damage the president's image and could clarify the depth of his legal woes. michael cohen has implicated the president with hush payments to women. he's revealed plans for a trump tower project in moscow. they were in the works as

president trump clinched the nomination in 2016. >> he knows the truth. i know the truth. others know the truth. and here is the truth. the people of the united states of america, the people of the world, don't believe what he's saying. the man doesn't tell the truth, and it's sad that i should take responsibility for his dirty deeds. >> dirty deeds. mimi, i will turn to you first as we look ahead to february here. you have michael cohen saying in a statement i look forward to having the privilege of being afford add platform with which to give a full and credible account of the events which have transpired. elijah cummings is heading up the committee, says i want to make clear we have no interest in interfering with any ongoing criminal investigations. dove tail what we're going to see in february with what robert mueller is doing, the chairman of that committee there indicating that he's going to move cautiously to make sure nothing interferes. how much will that limit what we're going to hear from michael

cohen? >> it could limit it a great deal and probably should. there's plenty to talk about without talking about russia -- >> the dirty deeds are many. >> right, exactly. let's start with the fact that he has already implicated him in a crime. >> yes. >> i, for one, would like to hear more detail about that. it's one thing to know. michael cohen in two sentences in federal court under oath said that -- and it was in court papers filed in the southern district, adopted by a federal judge, that trump directed and coordinated this election fraud effort. but it's very different to hear someone talk in detail about that. i mean, i've put hundreds and have been involved in hundreds of cooperating witnesses who have gone on the stand and hearing someone tell their version of the facts in detail is so compelling. juries are riveted by it. now i think this could go very

well with michael cohen or it could go badly. i think in part it depends on how much michael cohen owns his past and i am not 100% sure he's there because he didn't totally come clean with the southern district. he didn't lie to them but he didn't want to talk about all of his past criminal conduct. but the consequences are different for him now. he didn't want to tell the southern district because he probably would have had to plead guilty to more crimes and be facing more jail time. that's how it works when you want to become a cooperator. he now can go before congress with immunity and talk about his crimes and probably not face more jail time and, in fact, only help, theoretically, his case before the judge that he should get a reduction in his sentence if he's truthful about it. so i think the incentives are different. i think he needs to own the fact that he has led a criminal life, he has done it in large part, i think, through and with and on behalf of donald trump. and if he accepts that and is

honest about that, i think it will be very compelling testimony. >> jonathan, i want to turn to you. when he goes and sits down at the desk and begins talking you're going to have the chairman of many other committees rubbing their hands eagerly awaiting their opportunity to get michael cohen. this is the beginning, i should say. this is the start. >> that's the sense why some in the white house are so rattled by it, not just what cohen should say and there's a belief the president has not been totaling forthcoming with his own staff about what michael cohen might have to see, dealings that predate the campaign and the administration. this is almost like the opening act. it's not just that there will be other committee chairpersons who want to talk to michael cohen but this will be the first of many who are paraded up there on the hill who are going to be hit with a subpoena or testify voluntarily and want to be asked questions about donald trump, his business, his administration and so on, that this is sort of the first salvo in this new

battle here and new reality and we'll see this time and time again. he has faced legal consequences. he probably has to think about his post employment prospects when he gets out. rehabilitate his image the best he can. >> before he heads upstate. >> last question to you on this point. does president trump get the seriousness of this now? we saw reporting he has managed to find, i don't know, a dozen more lawyers to join his team, many well versed in responding to congressional inquiries like these. does that indicate this is going to be tough going for them for the next few months if not years? he said not worried at all. he is not ronald reagan or

barack obama. this is not a chill character sitting in the white house unperturbed by the events. he has a volcanic temper. he's ill informed so he's constantly taken surprise by events and blames everyone around him for things against him. he's on a tweet storm off of "the new york times" article. this is why every time michael cohen came into the news the last year and a half he tweeted against michael cohen, why he's been tweeting calling the mueller investigation a witch-hunt. this is front and center for him. i think when people general protest this much, they are either concerned about something or they're hiding something. and i think the virtue of these house hearings is you're going to start to get the first public narrative. a lot of what we've learned has come through court papers filed by mueller's teams, defense attorneys who have leaked or enterprising reporting by washington reporters. there hasn't been a consistent

long public narrative and as john said michael cohen is the first step in that process. and it's going to fill in these gaps about what we know about the president's actions. >> but he's a liar. just to say. unfortunately, that's one of the key issues in terms of michael cohen. he has to do the mea culpa because he's been lying for so long. >> the chillest guy at the desk. the rest of the panel will stick around. coming up from the oval office to the border, the president taking his fight for the wall on the road. who is his audience and who is he trying to convince. >> we're not changing our minds because there's nothing to change your mind about. the wall works. it's not a question maybe it won't work. it will work 100%. till had to he a cigarette. had to. but then, we were like. what are we doing? the nicodermcq patch helps prevent your urge to smoke all day. nicodermcq. you know why, we know how.

welcome back to "up." i'm david gura. president trump delivered his first prime time address from the oval office and traveling to mccallen, texas, to make his case again and again for building a wall on the u.s.-mexico border. according to the "new york times," president trump did not want to do either of those things. the speech and the visit, quote, it's not going to change a damn thing, but i'm still doing it,

mr. trump said. and he was right. so at the end of the week, he gave an interview to sean hannity and it went to a chat session for sean hannity to try to push the president to declare a national emergency. >> it's likely that you're going to likely declare a national emergency. how soon would that happen? if you declare a national emergency, the pentagon has the funds available that they would be able to help support building the wall. i guess the next most important question is when you do that would you expect they're going to go judge shopping? last question, timeline before you think you have to go the route and declare a national emergency? >> jeff jarvis joins us now. jeff, i want to talk about the evolution of this relationship between the president and fox news. bill schein now in the white house as a communications adviser and something that i thought was particularly striking in the "new york times" this week. mr. trump thought he was getting roger, meaning getting roger ales who built fox with a keen

eye for aggressive political strategy. but mr. shine has shown understanding of the conservative media beyond the cable news echo system and his former network where mr. shine has few admirers. he had this president giving this address rounding out the week going back to where he's most comfortable talking to or being talked to, i suppose, by sean hannity. >> but he's most comfortable with a crowd. donald trump is not a politician. politicians try to convince the public of something. he doesn't convince anyone or anything. all he does is shout what the public wants to hear and then they shout back and he feels like he's popular. the wall is not the wall. as marie ya said, the wall is racism, pure and simple. you can't go against african-americans, you can't go against jews. you can go against people from outside the country. and that's what he does. and the shutdown is about disrupting society and government which is putin's

strategy. that's all he cares about. so having to go on tv, the cool medium, and explain this, he was bored. he had no interest in that whatsoever. that was bill shine's version of tv, roger ales version of tv is use it to take over the country. >> there's the medium is the message. we'll get -- maria, let me turn to you, though. there's the absurdity of the evolution of this metaphor. jeff talked about the wall as metaphor. we reached peak absurdity yesterday saying democrats can call it what they want, they can call it peaches, it is what it is. your interpretation of that as to what the president is trying to do here, what he's trying to communicate? >> in his very first sentence, i thought he was trying to sound like my mother who is a mexican immigrant when he said i'm here es-speaking to you. you all heard that, right?

es-speaking. people presented to donald trump a very simple thing that he could kind of have in his brain which were three words, build the wall. and that was implicated into him to repeat. i actually think that he has kind of more innate kind of anger and hostility towards puerto ricans in manhattan because this is where he grew up as opposed to mexicans, who have only been in new york city since the mid 1980s. so it's not that he was -- had always been anti-mexican, but it was something that he could kind of understand. and what's happened now is we have got a national crisis going on, not on the border, but i'm thinking of people not getting their paychecks and how that is affecting real lives. and it's all because of this image which has been created and repeated which is why whenever i'm out and about in the country, i'm always talking to people like hi, i'm mexican. i'm a mexican immigrant, okay? my family is not a threat. let's talk about what you actually see in your communities. it's important for people to

think. okay. yes, there are areas where there is violence and crime and gangs, yes, but overwhelmingly? look at your neighbors. look at the people who your kids, your grandkids are going to school with. that's who we're talking about. not this mass that they've created which are all illegal that need be county by a wall. >> the main job that we have in media, and entertainment and news, is to make strangers less strange. the other is being used now, is being demonized. we have to say, look, maria is mexican and she's very nice. >> one other question to you, the president had this off the record lunch that came out in the in, times what is discussed there. we got some reaction from the president there and the president was furious. explain what that says, just his relationship to those who are not at fox news. what did we learn about that this week? >> i think everything resolves around at his core, the president is a performance artist. jeff put his finger on it when he said he's not a politician. he's in the white house because

for him, it's a stage and the wall is a prop on that stage. the military standing behind him at the border are props. it's object scene that he's using the majesty of this office and the powers of the federal government as stage perhaps, but that's what he does and that extends into his understanding of the shows he's directing. whether it's a meeting with reporters or a tv appearance, he wants to control the entire environment around it. so if he says this is an off the record meeting and he wants it to stay an off the record meeting and it doesn't, he's furious because someone is not obeying the director's orders. >> my thanks to all of you. thanks for coming in. in the words of the president, bye-bye. more on that bombshell report in the in, times about a counterintelligence investigation launched after president trump fired james comey that centered on the president himself. as the government shutdown continues with no end in sight. t your mornings were made for better things than rheumatoid arthritis. before you and your rheumatologist move to another treatment,

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welcome to "up." the decision to fire fbi director james comey is continuing to haunt president trump. overnight, the "new york times" published a bombshell, the firing prompted the fbi to look into whether the president was working on behalf of russia. james comey's firing was one catalyst, according to the report. this was another.