the u.s. could dial back tariffs on chinese goods during trade negotiations. we're to the sure that's true. things got dialed back after that. the white house spokesman lindsey waters said, quote, no new tariff discussions had been had. that wraps up the hour for me. it's now time for "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace. i h. everyohi, everyone, it new york. donald trump's delayed response to nancy pelosi's state of the union dis is in, 24 hours after she suggested he delay his state of the union address because of a shutdown, donald trump is responding in a letter, canceling her previously unannounced trip to afghanistan, which was scheduled to leave less than an hour after trump put out his letter. trump labeling pelosi's trip, where she was likely to meet with u.s. service members, a public relations event and an exertion. from his letter, quote, in light of the 800,000 great american workers not receiving pay, i'm sure you would agree that postponing this public relations

event is totally appropriate. i also feel that during this period, it would be bet fter if you were in washington negotiating with me. but trump adds, obviously if you would like to make your journey by flying commercial, that would certainly be your prerogative. we thought it was worth pointing out that trump just made public the speaker of the house, second in line to the presidency, planned to travel to afghanistan. even though her trip appears to be canceled, opponents and adversaries in afghanistan now know she planned to be there. also worth noting, the president also suggested that she fly commercial into a war zone. a spokesperson for pelosi responding in just the last hour on twitter. quote, the purpose of the trip was to express appreciation and thanks to our men and women in uniform for their service and dedication, and to obtain critical national security and intelligence briefings from those on the front lines. house majority leader steny hoyer also weighed in with a rebuke of the president's

response and he did not mince words. >> trump's latest stunt comes as he finds himself playing on speaker pelosi's turf, and in an increasingly weaker position than the democrats. a new report in "the new york times" suggests even he knows he's losing the public relations and split battle in the shutdown. quote, we're getting crushed, he told acting chief of staff nick mulvaney, after watching recent coverage of the shutdown. why can't we get a deal? "the times" adds this, polls show most americans blame him for the shutdown and his advisers are warning him of its negative effects on the economy. as the shutdown enters its 27th day on thursday with no end in sight, most of his top aides would like him to find a way out. joining us is nbc news national political reporter heidi president bela. at the table john heilemann, nbc news and msnbc national affairs analyst and politics and editor

of "the daily beast" sam kimes. heidi, it looks like speaker pelosi's trip is if not canceled, postponed. does this have any impact on negotiations though? >> it's hard to see, nicole, what the strategic end goal here was for the president. when nancy pelosi denied him his state of the union platform, that's obvious what she's taking away from him. it's one of the biggest rhetorical benefits the president had to be able to stand up there in front of the nation and lay out his agenda. in doing this, he took less than 24 hours. he obviously was trying to find some way to strike back at her. but what does it do? the practical impact, i can only see this draws the two parties further apart because they already were not speaking. there were no real negotiations going on, even behind the scenes. it was a my way or the highway, and i think the reason why,

according to actually democrats who i have talked to, that speaker pelosi will not go back into a room with him is because the last time she did, he thought he could just give him candy and said now you're going to agree 100% what i'm asking for on the wall and when he did it, he pounded on the desk and got up and left. >> he also revealed he doesn't value what she valued. she debrieved him of air time. when he dri brieved her of was a visit to the combat zone. he's never been to afghanistan. she doesn-- he doesn't value th information and she does. >> there will be those saying both sides are at fault here. what she did is hit him where his hurts for him, his ego and ability to convey a message, platform as you called it. i don't think this is necessarily tit for tat here. i think this is sort of a classic example of trump kind of

overreacting. that is his instinct, to hit back, punch back. what struck me that it took him a day to come up with this. it shows that he has a different type of adversary than he's used to dealing with. somebody who doesn't mind going toe to toe with him. and who also thinks of herself somewhat as an equal to him. she preshappreciates the house representatives as separate by equal branch of government where paul ryan never used that perch to that effect. this is an interesting back and forth. of course, there's real world consequences here. we're that much longer from a resolution to the shutdown where people are really starting to suffer. i do think there is some value that she's not going to go and now afghanistan's obviously a thorny situation, our longest war, and she will not have access to the information on the ground she wanted. >> let me press her actions had no victims except the 12 people that wanted to see him read from a teleprompter left on the planet, right?

his retaliation hurt the troops, who now may have had things they wanted to bring to the attention to one of the highest ranking democrats in the country, the highest ranking democrat in the cup the. his action, it's his sort of disdain for all of the institutions that he leads that leaves his actions harming innocent people. >> i think people overstate the importance of the state of the union address. it's largely ceremonial. it's almost always forgettable. but for trump, it was something he desperately craves, which is he's the center of attention and millions of people are watching him and literally every other lawmaker is down below hix. him. for pelosi, she doesn't -- there's no equivalent. no one craves that like trump does. he struggles to find something equivalent to attack for her and he ends up going after a coda, which is kind of ridiculous. >> there's always a russia threat to pull. she was also going to stop by

nato, so that visit also off. >> oh, yeah. look, let's acknowledge from the outset, and this is something you're familiar with, codeles are neither one of these sub astantively. neither one of them are the biggest deal in the world. her not going is not going to change anything particularly important in the region, et cetera, et cetera. this is not like going to have big substantive impact either way. ta tactically though and strategically, this is a politically important thing. what trump has done tactically inept, strategically nitwitted in the following way, as a tactic, nancy pelosi will now stand up and say, so you barely have been abroad ever to visit the troops. you barely have ever sit foot in a war zone and did it once and you mooned and whined about it when you went. you're essentially saying to me you will take out your personal

pique on me in my effort to try to learn more about the world and get to visit some troops. this makes trump look bad at a tactical level. the strategic level, what's the point here, right? pelosi's thing was brilliant for the following reasons, it's a way to force trump to end the shutdown. dude, if you keep the government shut down, this is not a secure event. i'm putting pressure on you to give you what i want, which is the government gets reopened. trump doing this to pelosi has what effect on her stance related to the border wall? zero. and the best-case scenario, even if he felt like it was a tit for tat, she lapped me, i slapped her back. show does that get her to change her mind and democratic party's mind on the thing he's supposed to be fighting for, which is wall funding? zero chance of getting him anything, even in the best-case scenario, zero chance of accomplishing anything at the level of political strategy. so, yeah, i mean, it's obviously kind of on the surface stupid.

but took him a whole day, if you thought through the tactics and strategy, this makes no sense on either level. >> i'm old enough to remember when republicans used to be the one who would carve out and hold sort of safe from political gainsmanship anything having to do with the troops. we should be done and dispense with the notion another norm busted. i will muultimately bust all of them because he doesn't give a bleep for them. >> it doesn't make him look good, it makes him look bad and it doesn't help him win the fight. >> i suppose we're going in the wrong direction -- >> it makes him feel good. he wants to punch back and it doesn't matter what he hits or how he hits, he wants reaction. >> as with everything else, why does trump do what he does? he does it because he does it. i get there's a benefit to trump in that he feels better right now. but in terms of accomplishing anything for him, even the

narrowest, most symbolic way, gives him nothing. i'm sorry, i cut you off. >> my point is what we woke up to, "the new york times," resenting "the new york times" story with him acknowledging we're getting crushed, with his aides acknowledging he's basically the inmate running the asylum they all work in for explicable reasons and there's no skexit strategy. >> what i love about that are the two parts that butted together. we're getting crushed. and he's deluded and moronic all the time. like the guy lives on planet earth. he's getting crushed. the next is why can't we get a deal? we're back to being totally diluted again. at one moment he's back in the place where he's doddering, uncome plending of what the political realities are.

>> just to this point because you're right, the smart move, the traditional move would be for donald trump to go on the codele, to go across, talk to the troops say thank you for what you're doing. i'm so sorry that we can't get our act in order back home, i appreciate it and put the spotlight on himself. he didn't do that. he doesn't think strategically. and we talked to every single senator from a trump won state. not a single one heard from the white house from trump. it's a remarkable absence of political leadership and vision. they just don't know what they're doing to resolve the shutdown. >> like trump is supposed to be a great deal maker. we're getting crushed. why can't we get a deal? you can't get a deal because you're getting crushed. if the other side is crushing you, they're never going to deal with you. ha he's so bad at the thing he's supposed to be good at, the

reason you're not getting a deal is because they're winning without the deal. the reason is right there. >> the other reason, heidi, next time i will do this, the other reason heidi -- >> i would rather be on set. >> go like this to heilemann, which is helpful. the other reason seems to be no one wants a wall as badly as donald trump wants a wall. and a little bit like a dynamic, personal dynamic if you're so desperate, if you're so palpably desperate for something, you already lost. he's so desperate to satiate the loudest voices, not even among the voters in his base but among the media wing of his base. is anyone in washington, is anyone that you talk to, is anyone working on anything about the substance of the shutdown, his wall? >> let me first of all add to "the new york times's" reporting about trump's strategicy. he actually acknowledged he was losing this public relations battle in that meeting, nicolle, according to my reporting, i had spoken to leadership sources after his meeting with nancy

pelosi and chuck schumer and it was almost as if he was asking them to have pity on him. he acknowledged i was losihe wa the public relations battle. yes, why negotiate? i think what we're seeing here, nicolle, is not the ends of something, it's the beginning of something. nancy pelosi is the first congressional leader in this presidency who's had the power and the grit to challenge this president and she's got the ability to actually hurt him, to punish him, to take away real things like the state of the union address. difference with trump is she is strategic and he is not, as we established in terms of trying to get to the bottom of how this helps him reach his end goal today. he took 24 hours to lash out. she will be much more strategic in figuring out her next chest move. unfortunately for all of the federal workers who are now going to food pantries and holding garage sales, this does not bring the two sides any closer. it just pushes them further apart. >> that's what i wanted to ask

you about. i understand even the fbi in some places are collecting canned goods. i don't know very many people in this day and age, and this is probably a more deeper, structural problem but i don't know very many people that could go long without a paycheck. but the difference for the federal worker, the difference between eating and not eating. gas in the car or no gas in the car. there are real world, real-life victims. and it doesn't seem like anything happening in washington moves anyone closer to fixing it. >> and now there's pride on the line here with the way that this is descending and becoming increasingly personal that will prevent us from either side moving any further either. now it's a principle for democrats. it's not just can we negotiate a deal on immigration? of course we can negotiate a deal on immigration. not when you have a gun to our heads and you're holding something hostage because it's going to teach you the wrong lesson, that president trump, you can do this again whenever

you want something from us. >> let's listen to adam schiff. >> to tell the congress it can't fulfill its oversight responsibilities, it can't ensure that our troops have what they need, whether our government is open or closed. that work must go on, and i think it's vitally important now in particular that the president announced withdrawals from syria and afghanistan that we understand the situation on the ground. we had anticipated an important defense and intelligence briefings in afghanistan. we were looking forward to the opportunity to reassure nato allies undoubtedly shaken by reports that the president has questioned his stof aff or opin about leaving nato. we're determined to make sure our allies understand on a very bipartisan basis our commitment to nato is strong. we think this is completely inappropriate action.

and the president's concern about it, going to a war zone, apparently doesn't apply to a delegation from the administration going to davos the following week because we have confirmation that is still planned. this is actually an action directed at the speaker, and we think as far as we can tell, this has never happened in the anales of congressional history, but at the end of the day, we're determined our oversight will continue no matter what the president's actions are. it's just too important that we make sure that our service members have what they need and that our nato allies are reassured of the time where there are increasing questions about the president's commitment to our alliances. i will be happy to answer questions. >> is it in some way still on? >> i'm not going to comment on

the speaker's travel plans. quite frankly, there has been far too much said about that already. and i think the president's decision to disclose a trip that a speaker is making to a war zone was completely and utterly irresponsible in every way. and i'm not going to comment on the speaker's travel plans. >> what is the state of affairs here in the country, the speaker cancels, she responds by canceling this overseas trip, what does it say to the country about what happens happening in washington? >> well, look, i can't say what the president's motivation is here, whether this is related to his disappointment that the state of the union at the time when the government is closed doesn't make much sense. i can't say that all too often in the last few years the president has acted like he's in the fifth grade. and to have someone who has that

kind of character running the country is an enormous problem at every level. we see it now. we've seen it over the last two years and my guess is we will see it in the future. but regardless of what the president's motivation is for this, one thing here is we will not let the president of the united states tell the congress you can't do your oversight. that appears what's going on here. and we are a coequal branch of government. it may not have been that way over the last two years when he had a republican congress willing to roll over any time he asked but that is no longer the case. >> does this bring the two sides any closer to reopen the government? >> certainly the speaker's office has been in communication with the defense department about this, and as far as we can gather, because we've been in communication with the defense

department until very recently, this came as news to them. and you'd have to ask the white house when this decision was made. certainly sounds like it was another impetuous act of a president who has had difficulty controlling his responses. >> that was democratic congressman adam schiff talking about how never before in the anales of history, congressional history, has a president canceled a codell to a war zone. fluf. i have to ask you, i think i worked for john mccain and lindsey graham who traveled often to war zones at a different time in the wars, which may be variable here, but you get one anecdote by someone needing something, even if it's better wi-fi. but these troops i think count on the eyes and ears visiting these regions, not for the big things, not for things like troop levels but things that affect quality of life in these

regions. this is not a victimless tactic for donald trump. i think there are real consequences when you start screwing around with travel from some of the most senior members of congress to the war zone. >> you're never going to put me in a position where i'm going to try to defend what donald trump's done in this regard. to properly frame my point, if donald trump were banning all codeles into the future, they're valuable and particularly if they're not going to do them. obviously, the troops get something from feeling they are paid attention to. my comment was more of a macro, he's not saying there will never be one again and not justifying it saying nancy pelosi can't go. it's effectively being delayed. my point is in the moment, it's not going to have a geoeffect on the war in afghanistan or the region. it will be good for the troops, but it would be terrible if we didn't have codeles. in this particular instant, it's not like this is going to change the course of the conflict of

the war in afghanistan. that's the point i'm trying to make, not justify what trump did, but it's not catastrophic. it's symbolic trying to make her look bad and himself strong. that's the point i was trying to make. >> joining our conversation, american democratic congressman anthony brown, member of the iran services committee and iraq war veteran. if you can just jump in to the conversation we're having here, it seems debrieving the natiprit from a teleprompter speech is something we can wait on. he shares his thoughts on twitter all day every day. but to deprive the military of a visit from one of the most senior officials in government could have real-world consequences. >> look, i have participated in codeles, i have been to afghanistan and nato, their invaluable. it gives us context. it gives us that added perspective as we're making decisions about appropriations and authorizations for our military that are abroad, that

are in harm's way. i also was in a way a recipient of a codell. i was in uniform with the united states army in iraq in 2004 and 2005 and it meant a great deal to me when members of congress showed up. they showed up not only to speak to the then-u.s. ambassador and commanding general of multi national force in iraq but they wanted to hear from me and similarly other soldiers and sailors and marines to find out what's going on, on the ground? how's the morale and training and quality of leadership? these are very important. sure, it could be rescheduled that speaker pelosi was going on but time is of the essence. the president is talking about withdrawing troops from afghanistan. time is of the essence. the president is talking about withdrawing our involvement in nato. so it makes no sense to push this off as a childish retaliation because for security reasons, we're deciding to delay

the state of the union. it's simply childish. >> great point. his own senior national security officials have been traveling the region, reassuring them after secretary mattis' abrupt departure. i want to ask you and get you on the record on the shutdown. another trump tactic with real-world consequences, federal workers have now gone without at least one paycheck. they're probably about to go without another one. there are people going to food kitchens. there are folks not able to put gas in their car, food on the table. where are we in terms of ending the shutdown? >> first of all, i've got the fifth largest number of federal government employees and contractors in my district, so i see it, i feel it, i hear it every day. and this is a financial stressor for so many families. look, we need to end the shutdown. the ball is not only in the president's court, it's in his hands. he needs to understand you cannot negotiate border security, which is a complicated

matter, in the context of a shutdown. open up the government and democrats and republicans agree that we are going to have structured debate and a vote on not only border security but a much broader look at immigration reform. but you've got to open up the government. you've got to open it up now. that's what my constituents are telling me and they're federal government employees. they don't want to see us capitulate to a president holding us hostage >> congressman brown, thank you for spending time with us. please come back. we appreciate hearing from you. joining us now, phillipe rains, former deputy secretary of state under hillary clinton, and bis crystal, now editor at large for the bull war, conservative news site. john and sam are still here, always here. let me start with you, not just on the tactic but on its consequences and the tactic as an ample number 5,000 of donald trump's lack of understanding about the people he's hurting

with his childishness. >> i have to say, you know, we spent a lot of time criticizing what donald trump is not good at. we don't spend niem giving him credit for one area of expertise, which is petulance. you're 100% right. the people who really suffer here are the people in the combat zone who, you know, who like seeing people from the congress, from our government come and show their support and hear their concerns and talk to ground commanders. i think it's also unfortunate, hopefully she will still -- and the codele will still go to belgium for nato but this comes at a pretty bad time for nato to wonder. but there's a big thing and small thing. the small thing first. as a staffer, maybe as a former staffer, you would agree donald trump isn't sitting there with a master calendar of nancy pelosi's travel. someone went in to his office and said hey, boss, i've got this great idea. it shows you the really low caliber of those around him for, again, the 500th time.

but the big thing is the guy never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. obviously, democrats loved the letter yesterday from nancy pelosi, essentially disinviting him from giving the state of the union. i'm not sure that the people who, the trump supporters he's on thin ice with in terms of immigration might have seen it that way. instead of saying, look, i want to address the american people. it's the time of year we come together, he gave up what might have been moral high ground, which is what he does best. >> i waited my whole life to say this, bill crystal, i want to show you something cardi b. said. we don't have it yet. >> tell bill crystal what cardi b. said. >> we don't have it. technical blitz. we got it. there we go.

>> i just want to remind you all because it's been a little bit over three weeks, okay, it's been a little bit over three weeks, trump is now ordering federal government workers to go back to work without getting paid. our country is in a hell hole right now, [ bleep ]. we need to take this seriously. i feel like we need to take some action. i'm scared. this is crazy. >> so a lot of important points made there. one, this is not a washington story anymore. there are real victims. it's not a beltway bubble. he's hurting real people over a wall that isn't popular enough in his own base to push republicans the way his base usually does on his inane thoughts. >> it made democrats getting for a tit for tat and reminds me of the campaign in 2016 when trump did a good job pulling people down to his level.

i think the democrats need to get over this in half an hour and get back to why is the government shutdown when we're having a dispute about the wall? why is the epa shut down and agriculture department shut down? trump is trump. he's got his position. republican senators are refusing to vote on various bills to open parts of the country. they have constituents, whether it's citizens, government workers, if you're a senator from iowa you have agricultural businesses that get on the agriculture department respecting your product and crops to be shipped abroad and rotating loans if you're a businessman who want to put up a furnace, you need epa to certify. they're closed. they need to go state by state, if i were advising the democrats, and put pressure on the republican senators. i think that hold mcconnell has on congress is a little more tenure that people realize. he's not an employee of donald trump. >> really? really? breaking news. >> maybe the trump states, no

one wants republicans so loyal to trump. but there are real people hurting. not just workers but a lot of businesses and a lot of r republican-type business groups. i agree with john on this. co-dells are fine. mostly for the sake of congressmen and senators. the troops, honestly, it's pain in the neck to get ready for these people to come and shake and have a photo-op sometimes. i wouldn't go too crazy about that. we should show support for our service men and women abroad but the key is for the democrats to get back to the strongest starting point which is trump is shutting down the government unnecessarily. we could have a dispute about the wall and normal appropriations process and mitch mcconnell -- >> but let me -- >> comes to the senate and bills the house passed. that's a good talking point. >> how are they -- how does a democrat sit down and even have a straight-faced conversation

about funding a wall when border crossings -- >> forget it. the wall is irrelevant. they could have the debate and there have been votes on immigration bills and democrats should say this is our position. if it becomes a wall issue, it's not 50/50, but 40/55, it's not terrible for trump. he's cavalierly shutting down a huge number of government processes and functions because of petulance when we're willing to debate the wall. nancy pelosi should promise that she will bring to the floor of the house whatever proposal donald trump wants to make for the appropriations for the wall. she will promise to bring to the floor of the house and senator should say he's willing to have open amendments -- he's minority leader so it doesn't matter, he will have open amendment meetings. but the vulnerability there, if i were tom steier, i would put $20 million of ads up in iowa

and arkansas and pennsylvania and a whole bunk of states focusing on the people and the groups in those states that are being hurt by this shutdown. and say call your senator and ask them why -- >> we're going to lose heidi. are there any other talks along the line of what bill kristol describe? >> i think there's not enough to put real pressure on mitch mcconnell but if nancy pelosi does not retaliate, i do think as time goes on, you'll see more movement. why? because you would have to. because 75% of federal workers surprise, surprise, actually work outside of washington, d.c., and they are the constituents of those senators. we've been debating many times on this show when the -- when the republicans will break in this congress with the president, well, it's when they hear from their constituents. and we cannot work hard enough and call enough sources to

report just the breadth of the impact this could have if it goes on through the month of march, through the month of february into march. >> there are three ways this thing ends. one is trump declares an emergency declaration, which appears he no longer has an interest in doing. the second is a catastrophic real-world event compels members of congress and trump to just drop it, which is possible. or it could be air travel that gets so clogged up. the third is mitch mcconnell just says enough, i'm done with this. i will hold a vote and i will probably get the numbers to override a presidential veto. to that point, that's where the most innocent end game lies essentially. and there are republicans who have come out and said let's do this. lindsey graham the other day, who is very much a trump alley at this point said open the government for three weeks. let's debate it while we have an open government. but trump dismissed that proposal.

it really comes down to does mitch mcconnell want to do this? i think it's getting there. the poll numbers this morning were fairly abysmal for the president. i don't think it's going to last once the government reopens but he's bleeding support from his base and white evangelicals, white men without college degrees. people are leaving him even though he has it in his mindset needs the shutdown in order to keep him. >> a lot of words from bill and sam and not one about cardi b. i'm waiting for reaction to the cardi b. bite. i got nothing from any of these guys on cardi b. >> we need to expedite cardi b. we defer to you. >> i'm pro-cardi b. i think this is right. this is mcconnell. i think the reality is, claire mcgas kill's been on the air for this network pointing out over and over, mcconnell has the

power. if he wants the votes, can he have the votes. he passed it by unanimous dissent in december. so he can get every republican senator to reopen the government, and trump can do nothing about by majority. but at what point is the political cost for his members, particularly up for re-election in 2020, at what point does he look like those costs are so high he can't tolerate those any longer? i think the question is what will be the triggering event for that? it's likely if i have to guess a transportation-related thing. there are storms coming to a lot of the united states the next week. a couple very large airports that could be affected. you start to get into the place with atl, big airport, dfw, all of the transportation grid and some combination of weather and enough people not showing up to work, could shut down the air travel in the united states. the minute that happens, the poll numbers will behave in a

way that i think will compel mcconnell to act. that's to me the most likely outcome. not anyone's heroism or bravery or anyone's principle. it will be as it often in is america, climate and weather will drive the end. >> a tragic state of affairs you always refuse to weigh in on cardi b. >> i weighed in! >> seriously, that it will be something so dire. that our government is so far gone, it is so far gone that you're talking about some kind of calamity. you're talking about a catastrophic weather event. pathetic. pathetic. vote them all out. heidi przybilla, thank you for spending time with us. when we come back, crazy like a fox or just plain crazy? rudy giuliani claims he never, in a million, zillion years said that the trump administration didn't clollude with russia. does he know something we don't know or did he pick up a newspaper? and this story has it all, michael cohen, bag of cash, boxing glove worn by a mixed

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now you have paul manafort giving poll data -- >> you misstated my position. i never said there wasn't collusion. i did not. there's no single piece of evidence that committed any crime, conspired with the russians to hack the dnc. >> of course, rudy giuliani said unequivocally there was no collusion between trump's campaign and russia. he's moving the goal post again. we don't know if he's trying to get ahead of some bombshell from the mueller investigation or just gone rogue or something in between. we do know the trump campaign's party line officially moved all the way in a complete 180 from the campaign had no contact with

russians at all to, someone on the trump campaign might have coluted. >> are there any ties between mr. trump, you, your campaign and mr. putin and his regime? >> no, there are not. it's absurd and there's no basis to it. >> did any adviser or anybody in the trump campaign have any contact with the russians who are trying to meddle in the election? >> of course not. >> it was a very short meeting. it was a meeting apparently about russian adoption. >> there was no collusion between the trump campaign and the russian people. they never used it is the main thing. never used it. they rejected it. there was collusion with the russians, if there was, they would have used it. >> i don't even know if that's a crime, colluding about russians. you start analyzing the crime. the hacking is the crime. >> the president hacked? i never said there was no collusion between the campaign or between people in the campaign. >> that was so good. thank you for the folks on my team who put that together.

bill kristol liked it too. betsy, i'm going to stop saying i can't believe it but i can't believe it. >> chris cuomo's face says it all. extremely relatable. i think as we're having a conversation about this particular comment rudy giuliani made, it's important to take a step back and put it in context broadly. the context is the lawyers for the president of the united states and his top aides and people very close to him, the top outside representatives of his campaign, have been lying to the american people for years. they all should have and could have known better, and instead they're deliberately giving bad, incorrect information about an issue that pertains not just to election law and not just to the integrity of our electoral systems but also to core american national security interests. and in the big picture, grand scheme of things, it's

impossible to avoid the significant implications of that. >> you worked for the woman who warned us this might happen. your thoughts? >> she was ahead of her time. watching that clip, i think you can turn the sound off and know everything you need to know watching chris cuomo's and rudy's face. to the point about not understanding what they've done, from the beginning it's strange that they didn't put this firewall in place much sooner. the idea that, who knows what everyone else is doing? who knows with these misfits like carter page and popolopodus were doing but donald trump had nothing to do with it. what's amazing the most selfish guy in the world, self-centered guy in the world uks for the first time in his life decided to extend this umbrella on to a larger thing. nicolle, can i revert a second to the previous subject? >> cardi b.? >> cardi b. no, a legitimate observation.

i was going to say the two words we neglected to mention were elaine chao. it's important noting mitch mcconnell's wife is the secretary of transportation in charge of the faa. you would like to think she has an preparation of the damage this is doing. i didn't mean to digress. >> it's hard to get a word in. i feel your pain. >> bis kristol just talks and talks and talks. >> i will let you respond, bill kristol. >> like nancy pelosi, i will not respond. >> we will fill the cup with something else. >> there are so many things to say about the giuliani spectacle last night. but i'll just start with, here's one thing to say, and i'm saying it because i'm looking at phillipe over there and i look at you. anyone who's ever worked on a presidential campaign, when you get to iowa, you say the same thing, of course a presidential candidate does not know everything everybody is doing on

their campaign at all times. but the one thing every candidate i ever talked to said in the end the buck stops with me in my campaign. i can't monitor everyone's doings but in the end if my campaign does x, i'm the one who's responsible. i hired these people. i created the culture. i'm the one if we win, i'm the one who gets the glory. if we lose, i'm the one who takes it on the chin and i ultimately have to take responsibility for anything my campaign does. that's what everyone said. in the end the flaw of any campaign is the flaw the candidate and strengths of the campaign -- the strengths of the candidate. so the notion that rudy would at this point -- i understand the tactics what he's doing and he's trying to move the goalpost. but it's a classically trump thing, this would be the one campaign, one presidential nominee in history where to would be, you know what, on colluding with russia, i don't know. i bear no responsibility. >> let me put one more thing on the table for this part of the conversation, donald trump in his own words told us what john heilemann is saying is true.

>> i'm speaking with myself, number one, because i have a very good brain, and i've said a lot of things. i know what i'm doing, and i listen to a lot of people. i talk to a lot of people. and at the appropriate time, i'll tell you who the people are but i speak to a lot of people. my primary consultant is myself, and i have -- i have a good instinct for this stuff. >> time and time again, you interviewed him about this, other people asked about this. when asked who he turns to, who gets guidance from, he says no one. i am the decider. >> when it suits him, he's the decider. when it doesn't, he's not. to your point, it doesn't pass the smell test, not because trump should have known but because the people who are actually accused of collusion are not minor players. we're talking about his son don jr., meeting in trump tower with election officials. we're talking about the trump

chairman paul manafort at trump tower. this makes no sense. but then i come back to rudy giuliani is not actually a lawyer. what rudy giuliani is, is a pr -- i don't want to say specialist but there for a pr purpose. >> he did reveal though, he did reveal an important piece of information before cohen pleaded guilty to all of his crimes. he's not as out of the loop. >> i think what he's trying to do is he's trying to manage expectations. he's hinting in a way, trying to get the public to digest the idea that collusion may have hand but not at the presidential level. so maybe when it is exposed in the mueller report, we aren't so outraged by the possibility. >> but it's bad for trump. this is like late-stage nixon. early on it was plausible richard nixon wouldn't know what gourd liddy and low-level oddball agents did. but then chuck coulson, mid-level did.

but in the end i didn't know what ehrlichman was doing. and the tell is the air force one statement, where trump personally dictated a false account of the trump tower meeting. if he didn't know, he would have said i didn't know about this detail. i was running for president. >> i predict right now in our near future we're going to hear rudy giuliani say collusion on the part of the president's family? there might have been family members involved in collusion but it wasn't the president. his son, son-in-law, daughter, wife. but the president was insulated. he had no idea what his family was doing. >> phillipe, i have to give you a quick last word on late stage watergate. >> i think rudy deserves more credit than gets. i say this as a new yorker who voted for him three times, including his first loss and someone who thinks he's lost his marbles long ago but he does, like sam said, have two jobs. one job is being a lawyer and he's really, really bad at it.

god knows how much more mueller is antagonized as a result. but he's also a human bad guy machine. the bad guys cornered the first thing they do is pull the fire alarm and everyone runs for cover and the noise goes off. he's been very effective, probably second only to donald trump himself, in terms of muddying the waters of bob mueller's report. look, polling shows that mueller's gotten pretty beat up in part because trump's been going after him in a vacuum. so rudy is simultaneously doing his job and also digging a deeper hole. but it's clear, to come up with a scenario, where the most benign scenario you can come up with, they're all just idiots and misfits and incompetent and unethical, that went out the window some time ago. this is a group of people who were doing wrong. it's only a question of how much other people knew? and when we find out, it's going

to be really bad news for donald trump and his family and associates and his campaign. >> missing the incompetence defense, something you only hear here. phillipe, thank you for spending time with us. after the break, donald made me do it. that's michael cohen's response to brand-new reporting about a bag of cash paid to his tech firm hired to doctor online presidential polls. can't make this stuff up, can you? stay with us. a lot will happen in your life. wrinkles just won't.

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we have only just begun to scratch the surface when it comes to what exactly michael cohen did for donald trump. the former fixer is pointing the finger at his boss. cohen promised to pay the owner of a small tech firm to rig two online polls at separate times.

when it came time to fork over the money, mr. cohen surprised him giving him a blue walmart bag containing between $12,000 and $13,000 in cash. and a boxing glove that mr. cohen said had been worn by a brazilian mixed martial arts boxer. and he says he did it for the benefit of donald trump because of "blind loyalty for a man that doesn't deserve it." that plot didn't even work. more from the wall street journal, in january 2014, mr. cohen asked mr. gauger to help mr. trump score well in a cnbc online poll to identify the country's top business leaders. they were able to get mr. trump into the top 100 candidates.

in 2015, mr. cohen asked him to do the same for a report poll of potential republican candidates. mr. gauger said that mr. trump ranked 5th with about 5% of the total. so michael cohen, not just telling more stories about his time with trump, but implicating the president in what i understand could be another campaign vie nans violation if this was a coordinated activity on behalf of the campaign. >> this is exactly why i think the hearing on february 7th will be both explosive and really important. cohen has spoken every time he has appeared in court, when he was pleading guilt, but there sf a limited amount of things. this is a live televised event that he was going there for

giving an opening statement that will allow him to explain these thins, but also be questioned for hours on end. why he did them, if he was directed by the president to do those things, it's why cohen has been looking forward to that hearing. as much as he is looking forward to setting the record straight, he is now concerned for his safety and the safety of his family after the president called into fox news and told judge jeanne saying a private citizen in new york should be gone after because michael cohen is complying with investigators. >> i understand that he can't talk about what he testified too, but that doesn't seem to be

what represents the gravest threat to donald trump. he is going to jail for these crimes, does he more latitude to talk about those problems. >> i think that is what he is able to talk about and that he wants to talk about. i think there is a limitation on what he will be able to talk about in terms of what robert mueller will be talking about, what could be in the final report, but in terms of the trump organization and business, i think it is open season and he is ready to spill the beans about that. >> betsy, you only have 20 seconds and i'm sorry to do that to you, but lawyers have long held it was the attorney district cases that could be a problem. >> it is worrying the legal team, there has not been as much visibility into what the southern district was doing. but when the filings were

showing individual number one, trump himself, that had knowledge of illegal activity, that was a shock to the white house. a shock to the white house. dad, i think he's dead. probably just playin' possum. there he is. there's an easier way to save. geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. fresh-baked, and hand-crafted, with 100% clean ingredients. just a few good reasons to give into your cravings. now delivering. panera. food as it should be. bipolar i disorder can make you feel like you have no limits.

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i have... ♪ that does it for us, i could talk to these friends forever, cardi b. chuck, when did you sneak in here? >> oh, i have been grounded, i don't know if you know that, i was trying to get back to dc, but someone took my plane privileges away. >> what do you think of cardi b. >> we got it through, if you want it, i will forward the tape from me to you. >> on the podcast it will be deadline white house featuring