nicole wallace starts right now. hi, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. it's one of the most dramatic and potentially devastating developments in the donald trump versus michael cohen saga to date. a new report so damning that, if true, could very well put in motion donald trump's impeachment. a late-breaking report in buzzfeed last night claiming donald trump has president, quote, directed his former lawyer and fixer michael cohen to lie to congress about negotiations to build a trump tower in moscow. according to two federal law enforcement officials involved in the investigation of the matter. the special counsel's office learned about trump's directive to lie to congress through interviews with multiple witnesses through the trump organization and interm company e-mails, text messages and a cache of other documents. cohen then acknowledged those instructions during his interviews with that office. cohen's testimony marks a significant new frontier, it's the first known example of trump

telling a subordinate to lie about his dealings with russia. this is an explosive charge that the president of the united states directed michael cohen to lie. it has the poem to bring down this president on charges of obstruction of justice. donald trump's own pick for ag was asked specifically about this scenario in testimony this week. >> so if there was reason to believe that the president tried to coach somebody not to testify or testify falsely, that could be obstruction of justice? >> yes, under an obstruction statute, yes. >> so if there's evidence the president tried to conceal evidence, that would be obstruction of justice potentially, right? >> right. >> donald trump's lawyer rudy pushing back against the story today saying, any suggestion from any source that the president counseled michael cohen to lie is categorically fault. today's claims are just more made-up lies borne of michael

cohen's malice in desperation to refute his sentence. democrats responded to the buzzfeed story cautiously, seemingly aware of the potential impact of the revelation if it proves true. california congressman adam schiff in a statement said -- these allegations may be unfounded but if true, they would be perjury and obstruction of justice. it's the greatest magnitude, given the efforts were intended to interfere with our investigation, our committee is determined to get to the bottom of this and follow the evidence wherever it may lead. how long does january 2019 feel already? here to break us break down the day's developments, some of our reporters and friends, joining us former u.s. attorney joyce

vance, former federal prosecutor paul butler, at the table jonathan revere. let me start with the way i read this last night, on phone, in my jammies, with my jaw on the floor. >> same here. i think it's important before we get too far into it, nicolle, remember there was one story based on comments from two senior law enforcement officials and the things prosecutors like to do when they see a story like this is investigate and see if it's borne out. it looks from the story mueller has already done this. as we always say on this show, mueller knows a lot that we don't know. what will be interesting is when the full body of his knowledge is transmitted to congress, because, of course, they are the people in the best position to make use of information regarding the president.

>> for context into how these stories land signed a news organization, at the time we came on the air the story had neither been matched or refuted, meaning no one else could corroborate the information but no one else reported anything different. let's take the substance of the story and try to understand it, as congressman adam schiff said, because if true, it has potentially dramatic and drastic ramifications. the substance of what michael cohen allegedly testified to, is it donald trump is the person who advised him or weighed in on his lie to congress, which is the final crime he pleaded guilty to before sentencing? >> that's right, nicolle. heretofore, the obstruction investigation of the president has evolved from gray areas like if the president lied about the reasons why he fired the state of the union -- fbi director, does that count as obstruction?

if the president directed michael cohen to lie to congress, that's not gray. that's as black and white as can be. the president, if true, would be guilty of subordination of perjury, of obstruction of justice, of aiding and abetting an offense against the united states, and against conspiracy to make a false statement. and no prosecutor, especially robert mueller, is going to again on the statements depend f one witness, especially robert mueller. there's documents, e-mails and i magical end magical calendar records that said michael cohen met with him ten times about this campaign, all of the while denying it on the campaign trail. >> joyce vance, i can't go any further without having you define what it means to sabourin

perjury. >> when you commit perjury, you make a lie under oath. when you suborn perjury, you help someone commit perjury. in other words, if the president told michael cohen under oath, he incurred perjury. >> and at the end of the day what did richard nixon get impeached for? >> of course, nixon resigned but perjury was the key charge everyone was focused on. >> article of impeachment for both. serious stuff. let me talk a little bit about the behavior. the behavior that buzzfeed is allegedly or they're reporting is donald trump directed someone to lie. donald trump directed -- i don't know why i still call him poor sean spicer but i can't get rid of the poor, poor sean spicer to lie to the presidency to the sides of his -- >> crowds. >> and sarah sanders huckabdonas

national security agencies to lie about all manner of things. donald trump, when he doesn't think people will lie for him, simply kicks them out of the meeting and destroys the notes. donald trump asks people to lie about things as small as his weight and as big as american foreign policy. so donald trump asks people to lie the way the rest of us breathe. >> right. donald trump lies. donald trump asks people to lie. michael cohen, which the story alleges, very much fits a pattern of behavior. it's not much of a leaf to suggest donald trump would ask his former fixer, who worked for him over a decade, who is a key surrogate during the campaign, who had aspirations of an important white house job, although that didn't turn out. but his right hand on a lot of things. we know already handled very delicate and illegal business for the president in terms of his campaign finance violations, hush money payments to stormy mcdaniels and mcdougal. it's not much of a leap that the

president would ask michael cohen to do this. downplay his knowledge of the moscow project or perhaps go before congress and not tell the truth there as well. we should point out, it took the white house quite a while to push back against the story. they since have. last night, rudy giuliani, his attorney said -- >> first off, i never said the campaign didn't collude. >> correct. very unorthodoxed appearance on cnn a few days ago. he again last night talked to him and others did as well, if you think this story is true, i basically have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you. but it wasn't a firm denial. it took the white house until this afternoon to do so, despite repeated asked questions to the staff and rudy giuliani again. he has since said this is not true, sarah sanders huckabee on a gaggle on the driveway reiterated that. certainly there's a sense in the white house of real fear of what this is, and more than that, sans of the unknown. this is probably one of those matters that only two people, perhaps, donald trump and

michael cohen know and the white house is scrambling to get their hands around it. >> this idea of fear in his inner circle is something i first picked up after helsinki, that even people closest to him said the same thing, listen, i don't know what he had keen off doing for him. it's not like there were staff meetings and everyone asked to do some sort of dark operation, traded notes about, you know, serving donald trump. let me read a little bit more from the story that may fall in that category. trump also supported a plan set up by cohen to visit russia during the presidential campaign in order to personally meet president vladimir putin and jump-start the tower negotiations. make it happen, the sources said trump told cohen. but two law enforcement agents said he had at least ten face-to-mace meetings during the campaign and cohen was made awares he was speaking to russian officials during the deal. the ten meetings, we know cohen tape recorded some meetings about hush money.

i imagine the fear you're picking up in your reporting has to do with the fact if there were ten conversations there, there were maybe one to ten recordings of them. >> there certainly could be. the buzzfeed report, and nbc, other places have not matched yet or corroborated, this 120st is not just built off what michael cohen said. there's evidence to back it up. >> e-mails, text messages. >> that's right. there's evidence in its possession supporting the case. we don't know if one of the things might be audio recordings of michael cohen but we know cohen as a common practice did tape recordings with journalists, with co-workers and occasionally with donald trump. we've heard the tape discussing the hush money payment. it's not much of a leap to suggest that this is another sensitive matter that he decided for whatever reason, perhaps to protect himself, to record. >> the other person that woke up to perhaps new headaches is donald trump jr. it's long been believed that he lied to congress. it's long been questioned whether or not he would be

charged with lying to congress. it's long been i think feared in his own circles -- i think sometimes about once every six weeks a rumor comes out of donald trump jr.'s peer group he expects to be charged withing some. the buzzfeed also reports that even as trump told the public he no business deals with russia, the source said trump and his children ivanka and donald trump jr., received regular e-mail updates about the real estate development from cohen, who they put in charge of the project. the source said cohen gave trump's children very detailed updates. donald trump jr. potentially testified when asked, like i said, i was peripherally aware of it but most of my knowledge has been gained since as relates to hearing about it over the last few weeks. it's possible he lied to congress. >> yeah. i think that's a real big possibility. i think we take a step back for

a moment and sort of process everything up to this point. even go back to the where everybody was clamoring, why don't you release information about your business and tax returns. now we understand why he didn't want to do that, because he was continuing to engage in business. the campaign, presidency are conduits through which he conducts business. so it's not surprising to see that these meetings were going on and the conversation was ongoing between him and the russians and donald jr. and the russians and michael cohen and the russians. because as donald jr. himself said, the rigss financed all things trump. golf courses, hotel enterprises. so why is trump going to cut off that gravy train? he's not, which is why he could not show us his tax returns. he could not say i'm going to build a chinese wall around my businesses, i'm going to step

out, turn them over to the kids? right. this is a seminole moment, because in one sense, it completes the puzzle for a lot of other thing that's we're kind of scratching our head going, well, why? because he's still doing business. >> michael, someone reminded me this week donald trump never thought he would win. so he didn't release -- didn't pull the curtain back. >> why? >> he wasn't a normal candidate. even he thought it was impossible to win. he did not write a victory speech. he did not think he would win. he didn't do any of the normal things. i remember mitt romney calling him to release his taxes, a normal pressure point, the last nominee from your own party saying it's what everyone does, but never did any of those things, one, he's donald trump. two, he never thought he was going to win so the collusion wasn't so much about political ambition, it was about being bought and paid for and owned by the russians. >> why would i expose all of that if i'm going to lose an election? and now all of a sudden on the back end, i've got to have investigations into my private

business affairs after having been a candidate for the presidency in which i lost. well, you won. which now puts even greater pressure on exposure to all of those things. and here we are two years into ongoing investigations. >> this is also an inflection point for democrats. bays we have now -- the i word, impeachment, is one certain forces on the left side of the party have been clamoring for all along. speaker pelosi and other democrats are saying let's go slow on that. we will worry about the political risk, that could backfire. remember what happened to bill clinton and he got impeached and his poll numbers went up. instead, let's run a series of investigations from the house. those investigations are coming and congressman schiff said last night they're going to look at this matter certainly. but if this story is proven to be true, that impeachment talk is going to grow. it's going to grow quickly and it's going to grow very, very loud. it's going to happen from within corners of the democratic party who initially were hesitant to go down that path >> can i quickly on that point

that's so important, the thing about those investigations which is really naturaling at a lot of republicans, particularly those who served on the relevant committees, is their behavior now comes under a greater scrutiny. the things they did inside the committee process that done to the benefit of the president, to protect the president, and that will be exposed in this. and put the party in the unenviable position to absorbing as much as the trump mess as they can. >> paul, can you weigh in on the questions about what sort of illegal exposure? we don't talk about ivanka trump as a witness or potential target in any of this. it seems like if the question becomes pay to play, on russia's part, she was at the center of all of those interactions and conversations. >> she is. so she, unlike her brother, has not testified in congress. if we look at who has the most exposure, it's don trump jr. for telling congress he was only peripherally involved in the investigations. and here is an opening from

lawler to get to the president of the united states, reportedly he's going to follow the deal guidelines that the president cannot indicted while sitting in office but that doesn't mean he can't excerpt any fluns. influence. he can use a threatened prosecution or tough sentence against donald trump jr. to try to get donald trump sr. to resign from office for agree not to run for re-election. and if we ask would mueller do that, use somebody's kid? he's done it already. did he it with michael flynn jr. to get michael flynn to cooperate. and with jerome corsi, his stepson, being summoned to the grand jury, threatened, so mueller can get corsi's cooperation. >> joy, i want to play you all the time that donald trump said he didn't have any business dealings in russia and ask you what it looks like with the picture becoming clearer. >> i have nothing to do with russia. i mean, i have nothing to do with russia.

i don't have any jobs in russia. i'm all over the world but we're not involved in russia. i have no deals in russia. i have no deals that could happen in russia because we've stayed away. we could make deals in russia very easily if we wanted to. ' just don i just don't want to because i think that would be a conflict. john, how times do i have to say it? are you a smart man? i have nothing to do with russia. i have nothing to do with russia. how many times do i have to answer this question. russia is a ruse. >> joyce, buzzfeed reporting last night, two law enforcement sources said he had, donald trump, at least ten -- ten, ten -- even he should remember ten, ten face-to-face meetings with cohen about the deal to build trump tower in moscow during the campaign. >> trump was even made aware that cohen was speaking to russian government officials about the deal. all of those statements, that should play in a loop not for us, we know, but his own voters. he lied to them. >> yeah. people tell big lies when they

have something big to conceal. and so it could have been possible that trump was forgetful or that the deal went on later than he thought. but when you hear the lying, you hear it told over and over and over again, and now we hear reporting that he asked at least his lawyer to not be truthful when he spoke with congress about it. it becomes apparent trump has a big problem connected to the trump moscow deal. whether it's a quid pro quo, whether it's something else, we don't know yet but i think there's not just smoke here any longer. there's pretty certain to be fire. >> daunting words from joyce vance. you guys are great. thank you so much for making sense of this. after the break, the buzzfeed story answers one of the longest and hottest burning questions in the mueller probe. we were just talking about it, just what donald trump jr. lied about and what happens to him next? also ahead, the nation's capitol is an unruly sandbox. new reporting in "the new york times" that describes the oldest

deliberative body in the country is acting like 7-year-olds. that's mean to 7-year-olds. and donald trump's separation policy is ongoing and more far-reaching than reported. what we're learning about the ongoing tragedy at the border. t. let's see, aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol extra strength. and last longer with fewer pills. so why am i still thinking about this? i'll take aleve. aleve. proven better on pain.

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that simplify your experience. my name is mike, i'm in product development at comcast. we're working to make things simple, easy and awesome. the president directed michael cohen to lie to congress, then that's a clear case of participating in perjury and obstruction of justice, and he should resign, but if he doesn't resign, he should be impeached. >> buzzfeed's new bombshell

report already has democrats going around the i-word for impeachment but the new allegation the president of the united states directed his former fixer michael cohen to lie to congress, virtual radio silence from republicans in congress. joining us at the table, the reverend al sharpton, host of "politics nation" here on msnbc and president of the action network and senior adviser to move on.org and my favorite part, brand new contributor. johnath jonathan and michael are still here. it looks like the part where they have to be super careful is over. whether this bears out or not, we know he committed campaign finance violations. the southern district put them in court documents. we know the fbi was suspicious enough to open a counterintelligence investigation. and impeached doesn't mean you get impeached, that means you have hearings. >> right, and that's the least

congress should do is start an investigation. they need to get to the bottom of this. here's the thing, cohen did not just lie to fbi or mueller, he lied to congress. they should really look into it to see what happened. what we learned from barr this week is, he may not share the full report of mueller. so we have -- they have to figure out at least how to get to the bottom of this. and we've learned from barr and lindsey graham back during the clinton impeachment times, obstruction of justice is impeachable. as lindsey graham said, it could remove the president from office. so we are at a turning point here. individual number one is in big, big trouble and not just him, individual number one jr., and individual number one's daughter. so this is where we are stowed. we have to get to the bottom of this because this is a serious, serious time that we're in right now. >> so, rev, i don't know michael cohen. you know michael cohen better than i do. it seems like this reporting is consistent with the life he now

acknowledges he led, blind loyalty to donald trump, asked to do unsavory and in instances illegal things for donald trump, but now maybe the only true thing they've said in attacking him is that he's trying to shorten his sentence. he shortens his sentence not by lying but by telling the truth. >> no, i think that is the moist telling thing to me, and that is if you are michael cohen, and michael cohen may be a lot of things, stupid is not one of them, you don't lie about lying to congress to shorten your time where if you are now found to be lying about that, you may limp in your time. clearly he knows if he makes a statement, they're going to look into it since he's been convicted of lying. the worst ally of the world is accusing a man convicted of lying a shorter time for lying. it doesn't even make donald trump sense.

>> right. and the folks over at fox news aren't even buying it. chris wallace was just on fox news with shep saying, i can't even get someone from the white house to come on. there is a sense, it looks from the outside, the wall is closing in. >> i think the wall is closing in a little bit and i think it's interesting and stretelling our friends over at fox news are sort of taking down the proverbial wall they kind of built up around to protect the president, and are at least punching some holes in it. >> sort of like the steel slats now. >> you have that. you have that. and that's why i think the white house itself is now realizing that they don't have the kinds of space to maneuver and to be cocky, quite honestly, where the president is going to be

engaged, he's shuttering. and today at the opening, jonathan talking about people at the white house going out and saying and denying 48 hours later, get your story and now you go push it. >> why is it, it took them just as long to respond to rudy giuliani saying, i never said no one on the campaign colluded. i just said the president wasn't involved in the collusion. what is going on there that -- they're not busy. the government is shut down. there are not that many of them. it's not like it takes a long time to vote consensus. it's like family breakfast and nick mulvaney. >> the problem is the white house is short-staffed because of the shutdown. that's slowing some movements down but the principals, of course, are still there. in terms of giuliani, the west wing sort of felt like he's out of their control. there's moments he will go out and say things, and sometimes it's in corn sternation with the president and sometimes he freelances and they wave their hands like we had nothing to do with this.

it blindsides them as much as us and certainly the no collusion thing the other night, he tried to clarify the next day but it even took giuliani almost 24 hours to say i am just representing the president, et cetera. which, of course, was different than he was previously saying. in terms of this, it was telling early this morning that hogan gidley went on air and point-bloifrpg asked on fox news, they pressed him on this to say what happened here? and he didn't answer. he danced around it for a while. the president's only comment wheres one tweet, treating someone else suggesting it isn't true and impedes michael cohen and his father-in-law out there. >> hogan better hire a lawyer. he goes out and says this never hand. robert mueller may want to know who told him it never hand. >> it took until this afternoon from a forceful deny from giuliani and sarah sanders huckabee this didn't occur. >> i don't want to let this point go calling michael cohen a liar being a stupid legal

strategy and hopeless pr strategy. michael cohen, the one thing he isn't going to do now is lie. why can't they come up with something better, like i don't know, i will part everybody that tells a new lie? it's a bad -- you know what i'm saying? it's a terrible and if you think about it for just a second, i know we're all dealing with a sandstorm of sort of incoming and they say crazy things but one thing, and this report may or may not be true, but one thing cohen isn't going to do in any context, he's on his way to jail and hoping to be there as few nights as possible, is tell more lies. >> this is less about trying to convince us of that. but more broadly creating the narrative and creating the space for that narrative as more and more of the bricks come off of this thing and it starts to crumble. there will be a significant pocket of american citizens out there who believe that cohen, to your point, reverend, is lying.

and that this -- >> you just have to remember he's the same guy who rigged the online polls for trump. >> exactly. but you're talking about connecting dots. >> they're like boulders! >> but they're not the way the president has articulated this whole thing from the very beginning. it points to various spaces. none of it has been connected. on these shows we do, but out there, a different story. >> you've got to realize is the problem the white house has with coming up with a more sensible story as you asked, the only one that really knows is donald trump and michael cohen. so if i'm in the white house's west wing, i'm like how do i create a story when the only one that really knows is donald trump, talking to his lawyer, possibly with nobody else there. how do i know what he told him and how far out there do i want to go? that's the reason they can't come up with a good story. >> donald trump, who lies all

the time. >> no! >> the point is, why would they stand up for him, somebody who lies constantly and they can't trust that. >> why would they indeed? when we come back, why is donald trump canceling flights for the good folks on a good day instead of reopening the government he shut down. a source told me shutting down the government was the plan, not the consequence of not getting a border wall. that story is next. that story is next wrinkles. wrinkles. and i don't add up the years. but what i do count on, is staying happy and healthy. so, i add protein, vitamins and minerals to my diet with boost®. boost® high protein nutritional drink has 20 grams of protein, along with 26 essential vitamins and minerals your body needs. all with guaranteed great taste. the upside- i'm just getting started. boost® high protein be up for life. little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla.

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this is important, guys. we've got a crucial update on the government shutdown to bring you and it's important to hear it straight from the mouths to the people in charge of it. >> just play this out, keep it focused on immigration. as long as people are talking about immigration, you're winning, mr. president. but whatever happens, just build the wall. >> so why is he digging his heels in on immigration? >> that is why. >> why now? >> it's self-preservation. he's dead in the water if he doesn't build that wall.

dead, dead, dead. >> i really believe if he hangs down and continues down this road, and at some point there's going to be a shift in public opinion and the vast majority of the american people are going to end up with him on this, if he hangs in there. >> we tried to save you the steps. there you have it, people in charge of donald trump and donald trump's shutdown, they predict it's going to continue because apparently there's about to be a shift in public opinion. that is the sad state of play in washington right now, a sad, upside down environment, oversaturated with chaos even before the buzzfield story dropped last night. here's how it's described -- washington these days resembles nothing such as an unreally sand box as the shutdown drags on, except politicians squabbling like 7-year-olds. demonstrations poised a protest march to the empty office of the senate majority leader and president's lawyer went spectacular off the rails in a television interview. there did not seem to be an

adult in sight. at the epicenter of all of that turmoil, 1500 pennsylvania avenue, where panic over the russia probed seemed to reach the 9.uh-oh on the richter scale. politico describes the mood as a circular firing squad, writing, bickering and bab stabbing were trump world tradmarks long before the former businessman launched his white house bid. now the sniping could have long-term legal consequences and the president and his former aides have used press interviews, social media posts and court filings to take shots at each other in the interest of protecting themselves and their reputations. joining our conversation, josh lebowitz, from "the times" magazine and msnbc contributor. you have seen a lot of things and covered goat rodeos, i'm old enough to remember that's what we called them. what are you making of this in washington? >> there was a feeling even before the buzzfield story, this was one big mess. bhis i mean the government

shutdown. the distractions have been russia news, they've been steve king news. none of this is good for the president. and, look, i think we don't have a sense that things are going well at all and there's any end game to this. i think what democrats are trying to focus on is staying out of the goat rodeo as much as possible. i think there have been lapses this week, the back and forth between nancy pelosi and donald trump. i don't think they want nancy pelosi in the frame. but overall, there there is not a sense things are going well by any stretch of the administration. and also a sense of what kind of calamity could end this. >> you're nodding. your reporting suggests this is not a crisis. it seems that a crisis only ends when people believe ending the crisis is the goal. we don't even seem to be at the point where people agree ending the crisis is the goal. >> we're not there yet, certainly. the president in his inner circle, are they happy the government is shutdown? of course not. >> really?

i have heard donald trump -- >> i don't mind the fight. let me say it better, they don't like how it's being portrayed. he feels like he's losing the media war. in fact we reported today when nancy pelosi made her move to cancel the state of the union, that the president's first reaction was actually sort of not of admiration. that was a good play. he appreciates that and thinks of her as a worthy foil. then, of course, as coverage went on and people praising his tactics, he felt like this looks bad upon me and seized upon the idea the next day to cancel this congressional trip to europe and then afghanistan. so that in which he was being perceived more as a petty, tit for tat than certainly than statesmanship. they're looking for some way to get out of this. but only on their terms. the white house is not willing to compromise yet. the president is not budging off the idea of this wall. he wants it. he's telling people around him he's willing to fight it. he's willing to ride this for a while, even as the real-world

consequences of the shutdown pile up. workers about to have their second pay period without pay pay stub with zeros on it. and there are those in the president's circle afraid of those object, the president himself is not willing to budge. >> i believe everything anthony just said but i don't want to make the folks in the control room use the delay button. but my disgust -- my disgust, i'm sure that is right, but this is all about optics, narratives. it is disgusting! he should be impeached for having no soul. >> you look at the fact we're discussing politics, tit for tat, there are 800,000 people that are not getting paid. >> right. >> and children whose mothers can't get milk and rush limbaugh and ann coulter sitting around talking about politics, he's dead in the water? they're not even saying there's a threat at the border. they're not even using that line.

>> because there's not! it's at a 40-year low. >> they're not even trying to use the boogieman stuff. he better use this or he's dead in the water politically. he's responded. good move by pelosi. i've got to counter it. what about the people that are impacted that are going with no money? will they be on the agenda, mr. president? will they be on the agenda right wingers? i think it is that kind of disregard for what's happening to real human beings that's going to backfire on them politically and it should in turns of the human -- the human -- >> carnage. >> insensitivity. >> human carnage is a good word. >> here's the problem, he doesn't care. he doesn't have empathy. he doesn't have sympathy. he doesn't care. the building at the other end of the street. >> this is why i bring it back to mitch mcconnell. he could end this. he could end this if he says, you know what, i'm not playing your games anymore, donald trump. we're going to put the cr that was passed by 100%, i'm sorry,

all 100 senators passed this before the holiday and we're going to open up the government. the clean cr, which everybody, bipartisan, agrees on. but he refuses to do that. he could stand up to the president and say, enough is enough. there's 800,000 people who are suffering who can't pay their mortgage, who can't send their kids to school or pay for day care. >> can't put gas in the car! >> let me bring mark lebowitz back in. mark, i heard from a close trump ally who before the holidays said the shutdown was always the end. it wasn't a means to an end. the shutdown was the end. and he didn't have an exit tragedy before he shut down the government, he sure doesn't have one now with the numbers plunging and numbers declining and waning. we showed rush limbaugh and ann coulter because they are, for better or worse, running this president.

>> there are a number of inflection points of logic if you're making an argument against what donald trump is trying to do, you have very easy things to grab on to. first being mexico is supposed to pay for it. that's not happening. that where we are. number two, they controlled all chambers of government for two years and you could easily ask what was donald trump doing the last two years, and why wasn't this happening two months ago? why is the end game happening now? >> you just earned another segment. please stay with us, mark. you don't get to leave. >> cool. after the break, while the shutdown heads in the fifth week, the crisis at the border is the one he created separating children from parents and it's wider spread than we knew and ongoing. and ongoing. fact is, every insurance company hopes you drive safely.

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[indistinct conversation] [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪ government shuttered over his pet project, a border wall that he wants to erect, at a moment in our history when border crossings are at a decades-long low. two real reports shine a real

crisis at the boarder. you won't be surprised to learn donald trump created it and there's no sign that it's getting better any time soon. as two new reports expose more details about the trump administration's family separation policy. the department of health and human services inspector general's office released a report saying on top of the nearly 2,800 children taken away from their parents during the zero-tolerance policy, quote, thousands of children may have been separated during an influx that began in 2017, before the accounting required by the court in hhs. they faced challenge in identifying separated children. nbc news obtained a draft memo from late 2017 that said, trump administration officials weighed speeding up the deportation of migrant children guy nighi migrant children by denying them the legal right of separating from their parents. they also specifically wanted to target parents in my grant families for increased

prosecutions. the authors noted the increase in prosecutions would be reported by the media and it would have substantial deterrent effect. mark is still here. the table is still here. this is cruelty operationalized by an incompetent and vapid administration and the consequences for children are irretrievable. i have a 7-year-old. you could hurt a child by having them experience fear in one night. these are children separated from their parents for weeks, months, perhaps forever. >> i thing i would disagree with you on, and i don't think this administration is vapid in the sense i think this is calculated and well executed as part of a longer plan to create the kind of fear around the immigration issue, to symbolize as the immigrants who are identified who commit crimes in the united states and that happens like it happens every day, in some

community in the country there's another immigrant who's killed another american. and the children and their parents become part of that symbol as well. the goal is to sort of desensitize us to the idea that these are human beings, these are children, these are parents, mom and dad. instead, they're breaking the law, they're illegals, they're people who are trying to take something that you have, your job, the classroom, health care benefits, creating this sort of victimization among u.s. citizens in terms of looking at those who are perpetrating the offense on the victims, that's what this has been about from the very beginning. it's not about anything other than that's the medium through which we will exercise our policy on immigration. >> mark, take michael steele's theory on the case and let's hold that as the assumption of what the trump administration is doing. do you think anywhere in the democratic caucus they are

thinking, all right, you want your wall? reunite every single child with every single lost parent, and then we will sit down and talk. is this an issue there? >> sure. i mean, look, there's any number of things you could do if you want to play that game. i mean, it's sort of unclear when you sort of step back and look at this. again, you want to sort of put your -- you're tempted to put your pundit hat on and say, got, what terrible optics but it's not a optic, it's humanitarian. it's just brutal to look at for no matter who you are. i think this contributes to a sense of chaos and the administration, whatever is at the heart of what they're doing, doesn't have a plan to get out of it. it's the epitome of a self-inflicted mess but also the intention of what they're trying to do here. look, if you look back, what is the good news that the administration has to point to right now? i mean, you obviously can't do the economy now when 800,000 people are out of work. with the government shutdown. and it's just one thing after

another, and it gets a little relentless. >> mark is right. this is cruelty as a strategy. this is cruelty as a default. you're correct. point conceded and taken. and taken, but what is it, this is how he beat 16 of the republicans, they were playing by the old rules. they were attacks and marco rubio went to hand size and they said he is done, so what do they do with someone who has cruelty and lielt as their -- highlight that as the effect. >> yeah, they went around and touted and was proud in san diego to talk about it. we did see donald trump's approval ratings go down because it was so horrific.

it was so pure evil, and people reacting to it. >> why did melania go with her "i don't care what you say or do jacket." i don't think she cared at all. i went down there to el paso. and you saw the pain. and it is really just inhumane. this is part of donald trump looking at the other and dehumanizing them, and saying this is who you are supposed to be afraid of. what he did in the election was you have to be afraid of your own identity. these folks are coming to take everything away from you but what are they coming here to do, they're coming to get away from violence and impoverished. my parents landed as immigrants but they came for the same

reason from haiti because of political persecution. this is why people come here. they believe they have an american dream and they want to be part of it. they will work three and four jobs to did that but donald trump dehumanizes them. >> he is a symptom, not the cause. he was that person, he was that monster you just described. jeb bush sid illegaid illegal immigration is an act of love and he was politically crucified. >> but you were right, they played it like they were using the old model but someone should have said i'm not accepting this new model. they fought his fight and then they stopped trying to play along with his fight plan when they should have called him out and said america does not stand for this kind of dehumanizing

people. your mother and father-in-law came here as immigrants, what are you talking about you don't believe this. you're playing games, no one took them on. if someone calls him out and takes them on, he is a bully, he can't take that. unless you accept his premise, if you take his premise you come to this conclusion, you have to take the premise upstairs and don't play his game. we're talking about children, children didn't come here to do anything to anybody. they don't know where they are. i have been to texas to the border as well. the kids have no idea. their parents brought them here for a better life and they're being turned into murderers and rapeists. >> and it is so sensitive. unequivocally that our goal as a

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the man in the middle of the moment, that is lanny davis, he will be on "mtp daily." his one point should be that my giant has no rp to high, his sentence gets shorter if he tells the truth. now he is only going to tell the truth. >> having work with him and we were in partnership together, that is the advice coming to him, and it will be well framed and argued at the appropriate time. >> and you talked to rudy

julia juliajuliaewe giuliani. they know the mission, program what rush limbaugh used to call low information voters. >> he is a smoke someone and he will just hammer point after point. he should nould, but he is not the most trust worthy character to this moment. they have been painting him as a liar and they're going to keep doing that. they hope their voter wills go with it. >> the problem with trump is the people he is repelling, he they may not be his base, but i think richard nixon had a similar rating. what do you think the end game is for this white house? >> i think they will keep fighting rounds and they're going to lose the total fight

because he is so caught up in the give and take that he is not looking at the fact that people are suffering. people don't know when they're going to get paid again. i think he is tone deaf and he will bring them down. >> that is my thanks. michael steele, thank you for my all-star panel. "mtp daily." he is already saying hi, if it is friday and if it is true, this presidency is in peril. >> good even, welcome to mtp dal daily. if the