gig-fueled apps that exceed expectations. comcast business. beyond fast. that's a wrap this hour for me, i'll see you at noon. but now it's time for "up." well this is "up" i'm david gura. the oracle speaks, the office of the special counsel issues an unprecedented statement disputing a buzzfeed news report that president trump directed michael cohen to lie to lawmakers. today, that news site is stand big its story. >> i think you know he's made these sort of, these statements and we'd like to know what he's talking about. >> the white house calls the report ridiculous and continues to attack michael cohen's

contribute. >> michael cohen is lying. he's a weak person. >> later today, president trump plans to make an announcement on the shutdown. now in its 29th day. on border security as well. will he declare a national emergency? >> when it comes to keeping the american people safe, i will never, ever back down. >> the president announces he plans to visit dover air force base to be with the families of four americans who lost their lives in syria. and the president's feud with speaker nancy pelosi continues to heat up. >> i don't think the president would be that petty, do you? >> saturday, january 19th and nancy pelosi is explaining the house rules to the president. >> you don't get to come into my house and do the state of the union in the usual televised way. no tv until you do your homework. that's what she told him. >> that would be this morning. beth fooly is the senior politics editor here at msnbc. don calloway is the democratic

strategist. jill von banks normally in chicago is with us in the new york, assistant watergate special prosecutor and pete dominick, "stand up" on sirius xm. we begin with the article that bus fooed published. questions about it raised overnight by the special counsel staff. robert mueller's spokesman doing something he has never done before, commenting on a piece of reporting that said according to federal law enforcement sources, president trump directed his long-time personal attorney, michael cohen, to mislead congress about a trump tower project in moscow. buzzfeed noted the special counsel had documents to back up that claim. this is the statement from the special counsel. quote buzzfeed's description of specific statements to the special counsel's office and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office regarding michael cohen's congressional testimony are not accurate. in short, there's some ambiguity this is what the editor in chief

of buzzfeed said to my colleague, chris hayes last night. >> obviously the spousen prefers to control the timeline and for reernl reasons wants to operate on his own timeline. without revealing a lot of details. but i think you know he's made these sort of statements and we would like to know what he's talking about. >> the "washington post" put it, that the buzzfeed news story landed like a mortar in washington. >> if this report is true, if the president directed michael cohen to lie to congress, then that's a clear case of participating in perjury and obstruction of justice. and he should resign. but if he doesn't resign, he should be impeached. >> all this happening, the reporting that statement just weeks before michael cohen is scheduled to testify before the house oversight committee. that's scheduled to take place on february 7th. beth, let me start with you. kind of back into the criticism of the piece by the special counsel.

let's start with the stir that it caused. we heard from congressman caster there reacting to the import, potential import of this piece. this was a turning point in a way on capitol hill, the way the story was reacted to. >> sure it was. it landed like a mortar is what the "washington post" said. and what was interesting is everyone was very inclined to believe it number one, buzzfeed has been doing some great reporting around this investigation. so they have a track record. ben smith is an outstanding journalist and editor. we know that michael cohen is providing information to the special counsel. and the special counsel's office who is typically tight-lipped indicated in court that his assistance has been beneficial to them. one can surmise that some of what michael cohen is telling them could be potentially as powerful as this. that said, nobody else, including nbc news has been able to match this reporting. and we all did report hanging on buzzfeed, but we don't have it ourselves, it's frustrating a

bit that the statement from the special counsel did not specifically say what was inaccurate about their reporting. we're left to try to understand and figure that out ourselves. it does cast a lot of doubt on this story. >> what was it to so many on capitol hill -- most of us familiar with the articles of impeachment against richard nixon, the first one, obstruction of justice, your reaction to the piece? >> it's one of those things where if true, it was dynamite and it was the first time that there was a direct link between the president and a crime that no one could dispute. even william barr in his hearings, said this kind of conduct would be obstruction by the president or any other person. okay he had the authority to fire comey. this was a clear-cut crime. no question. clearly impeachable. it was grounds for impeachment of richard nixon. that's why it created such a big stir. and everybody was in a feeding

frenzy about it. and then -- it was disembowelled in a way. i read the language very carefully as a lawyer. and it's hard to parse, if one of those times where i could argue either side, that it was just nibbling at the edges. but then i say, why would you, if you were the prosecutor, nibble at the edges if he was wrong on one little fact? you wouldn't bother. so that makes me think well then it is trying to say the whole thing is ridiculous, and then getting into conspiracy theories and i'll leave that to you. >> i would want to know in that statement that they put out last night, whether it's a major corporation's pr department, or in this case, the special prosecutor, isn't word every pored over and didn't every word they chose to reject the story leave room for experts like yourself, to parse that?

i mean i would, my expertise to some extent is on the media. i think the concern here is that this plays into, president trump and what he's been saying about media for a long time. i also want to give credit to everybody who during the last 24-hour news cycle went on networks everywhere and said "if true." and then, saying if it's not true we admit that it's not true. we can't buy into these conspiracies, we can't buy into things because we want, i don't like donald trump doesn't make it true. it's important that we don't become what we criticize. >> i agree with that completely. i was on air when the news of the story broke. the initial buzzfeed. and the reporter was on the telephone, so i was listening to him and watching him. watching his picture. he wasn't actually live. and he was very credible. and their reporting was very detailed. it had all the earmarks of something that you would really believe. and so i was inclined to believe

it. and then you see this other thing and you go, i have to question it and no one else has confirmed it. did goes back to things like michael cohen was in prague and mcclatchy is standing by that story. buzzfeed is standing by this and ultimately we're going to know. because there's going to be public hearings and there should be and that raises a question of whether michael cohen will be able to testify about this particular thing or whether it's barred as a russia-related thing that he can't talk about in his public life. >> all part of the string of these sort of unmatchable exclusives that news outlites have had. don, what does this mean for congressional inquiry? the fact that this landed an is now being scrutinized? >> there has to be a hearing. and part of why there has to be a hearing is from a public relations standpoint. so many democrats, including members of congress, who probably should have been more careful, took a victory lap. we were waving about the flag and it was about a good 18 hours, i would explain, though, and it's not over.

the is special counsel was particularly narrow. he did not say what details were false. perhaps buzzfeed missed a time or -- there's a lot of wiggle room here for buzzfeed. i want to point out for those of my friends who are outside of the acela corridor, buzzfeed is a legitimate news organization. my parents haven't heard of it, because they started making -- and i get so much yeah, but it's buzzfeed. those it is not the "washington post" or "the new york times" in terms of the venerated and august nature of the publication. but it is a leader in what we now call insurgent media. ten years ago you hadn't heard of politico. two years ago you hadn't heard of axios. these are legitimate professional journalists who are not waging their entire company on this story. >> or waging their entire careers. the point is if these guys did get the story wrong, the president says journalists make up stories. that's not true, because you'll lose your job.

the consequences for this, are going to be serious for any journalist. we don't have any instances during this investigation last two years of journalists making up these types of stories. if they do, they do lose their jobs. when i said that the president calls the news fake news all the time and criticize the media all the time and this hurts their credibility, maybe, we'll see, february 7, michael cohen. on the other hand he calls the investigation a witchhunt and this gives credibility to mueller if he does push back on this story. >> he travelled with ben smith on the campaign trail, know him and know what buzzfeed has done. there was the dossier first and the reporting about the penthouse and trump tower moscow that was going to be given, deeded over to vladimir putin. what happens now? buzzfeed news stand big this story. we heard from ben smith there. signed a statement, they stand by the reporting. they want to know what exactly was wrong with the story. >> i do know ben, he's an outstanding journalist and outstanding editor.

i'm sure those reporters are trying to turn another story, to bolster what they have reported earlier this week. and other news organizations are doing their own reporting, trying to see if they can watch or glean any other detail around this big bombshell. if they're left hanging out there for a while, it's going to be excruciating for them and michael cohen will one way or another, perhaps hopefully on february 7th, confirm or put to rest this situation. >> can i follow up on this thing, one of the key questions is who are their sources? will their sources come forward and allow them to be identified? and can they be somebody who we all would trust? because that's really what it comes down to. and one other theory about mueller might have been saying in that rather vague statement, we aren't the leak he may have been protecting himself, because they did identify in the story that it was law enforcement. federal law enforcement.

>> they were making a deal for a trump tower in moscow, that was happening. the question is did the president order him to do that and because he did so many crazy things that you can't even write in a screenplay, because no one would buy it, you tend to believe it. that's the one detail we don't know. >> you're right. what i took from it is him saying we're not out here talking and we have not, he's kind of trying to regain the tempo that he has controlled masterfully for 18 months now. and now that he's moved into the end game he's not going to let this thing get out of control. i do find it rich that republicans are now somehow like bigging up robert mueller after 18 months of attacking him and his character in this entire investigation. >> it's also true that he's only three other times had a press release. peter carr has been the most silent press officer ever. >> returning to the story through the next couple of hours, what does it say to you about the pressure that robert mueller is under? i saw it in the swirl of

commentary we got from capitol hill. a lot of people saying bob mueller, if you have something, come out with it, we can't wait, we can't sit on this any longer. does the release of this statement tell you anything about pressure and the special counsel? >> well i mean the pressure is obvious anyway. i think the danger of it is the comey episode. once you start on this slippery slope, how do you stop it? so now that he commented on this the next time there's something slightly wrong or dramatically wrong, does he have to say something? if he starts rebutting everything that somebody says, that's going to be completely contrary to how the department of justice functions, how a special prosecutor functions. it is, i mean we have no leaks during watergate ever and they've had no leaks, either. the three times they've spoken before this one, were announcements that were public. >> it becomes a certain sense, i don't think he will have to. because of all the talk of impeachment 15 hours, maybe he wanted to get into the fray. i can't imagine that it will happen like this again, but who

knows. every hour, every day -- >> all right. coming up we'll come back to this. she says she can't deliver a state of the union in her house. he says she can't go ahead with a trip to visit troops in afghanistan. how actions are speaking louder than words between president trump and house speaker nancy pelosi. >> how do you know the ruling came from the white house, the white house has denied it. about 50% of people with severe asthma have too many cells called eosinophils in their lungs. eosinophils are a key cause of severe asthma. fasenra is designed to target and remove these cells. fasenra is an add-on injection for people 12 and up with asthma driven by eosinophils. fasenra is not a rescue medicine or for other eosinophilic conditions. fasenra is proven to help prevent severe asthma attacks, improve breathing, and can lower oral steroid use. fasenra may cause allergic reactions. get help right away if you have swelling of your

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the longest-running shutdown is now in it's 29th day as renegotiations to open government have ground to a halt. the president is teasing an announcement today at 3:00 p.m. concerning the humanitarian crisis on our southern border and the shutdown which has created a real crisis for 800,000 federal workers, many have gone a month without pay. they've been forced to line up at food banks. across the country they're taking to the streets in protest. will the stand-off between president trump and nancy pelosi has gotten personal and petty. the president grounding nancy pelosi and bussing her back to the capitol after denying the speaker a military flight to afghanistan to visit u.s. troops there days after she asked the president to punt his primetime state of the union until the government reopens. we're getting crushed, president trump told his acting chief of staff after watching coverage of

the shutdown. majority of americans now blame president trump for the shutdown. beth phooey, let me start with you. it have to be a big announcement. what are we expecting? what do we know the president is going to say today at 3:00. >> it's been kept fairly quiet at this point. weirdly if he decides he's going to declare a national emergency after a month, to initiate funding for the wall that's outside of congress, in some ways, it will be challenged in court and perhaps you can tell us how that's going to go. but in a way it will also be a relief strangely enough. i don't think that what the president did by grounding nancy pelosi is defensible in any way it's petty. it was a security violation by disclosing where she was going to go. going into a war zone. on the other hand there has been a decided lack of urgency on capitol hill to solve this problem. everybody is belly-aching about how terrible it is that 800,000 people aren't getting paid. we've seen the images of food banks and people lining up to

get food and supplies for their families. on the other hand congress is doing nothing. the president is doing nothing. if the president is going to move this forward in some way, legally perhaps, challengeable, doing something to bring this to a close. perhaps that's your thing. this constant endless staredown, is doing nobody any favors. >> many major committees in the house. >> yesterday i was walking past the capitol, and you see this bus pull up right in front. you know something is going down, you don't know what. i think it would have been a little more consistent of the president had he also grounded melania from going to their family resort. >> on a military plane. >> the one thing -- >> he has no problem with putting his wife on a government plane, but -- to go to mar-a-lago. but he has a problem putting nancy pelosi on a plane to go visit the troops. >> one of the overhaarching thes

of this presidency is historically we don't mess with the military. nancy pelosi was going there to give aid to the troops and also going to receive classified security briefings. she has now taken over the third most important job in our government and she has the right to receive briefings. and this president obstructed that. that should not be forgotten here. but ultimately as we would say in the 'hood, it's so petty. this is truly a petty move and a direct response to her letter saying no, you can't come into my chamber and give your state of the union speech. >> what do you make of the way that this has shaken out. you've seen shutdowns before. these are often distilled into battles of personality. in '95-96. it was president clinton versus house speaker gingrich. >> this is different because the cast of characters is i think you said this before, if i wrote this you couldn't make this up because you wouldn't buy the play. >> cartoon villains. >> there's i want to take it from two different perspectives. you're a new father, are you

learning parenting skills. tit-for-tat, i'm going to take away your plane. one is ridiculous, because it was a security breach. it's a terrible thing. but as a lawyer, aside from the possible lawsuit which i think would be easily won, as a negotiator, you have to have something to talk about. and when the president stands up there and says nothing but 5.7 for my wall. i'm ignoring the facts that the wall won't stop illegal immigration, it won't stop drugs, more illegal immigrants are coming from the northern side than the south. it's ridiculous, you can tunnel under it. we had people from msnbc down in the tunnel. it's not like a temporary dirt thing. it's pretty much a secure, lined tunnel. so it's not going to work. we have to get past that. and what we ought to be looking at is first of all, the wall is in it's code in the say way that

adoptions is code for sanctions, the wall is code for bigotry. it's not going to work. it's playing to a very narrow base. and i think republicans are starting to say this is hurting and the shutdown is hurting. >> i would push back a little bit about what beth said about what kung should be doing. i think democrats are doing a lot to, to not exploit, but certainly to make transparent the struggle of the people that are working in their districts and trying to put pressure on really on the senate i mean the new house members went over to the u.s. senate for a field trip and asked where's mitch. this is all on mitch mcconnell. it's all on trump for the tantrum and the stick with your parenting metaphor. the question about what democrats can do, and nancy pelosi has said this, you cannot reward your new child, if they're crying, because if they give in, he will continue to govern this way and this is no way to run a government. by shutting it down if you don't get $5 billion for a ridiculous wall. >> my only reservation on all of

that is that the democrats believe, if by definition democrats believe in government, they believe in legislating, they believe in doing the right thing. republicans typically in the last 20 years have been the party trying to blow everything up and ignore press death ignore institutions. in that regard, in terms of being a good negotiator, why not go to trump, you know, not give him the wall, i understand that the wall is symbolically and viscerally, a very emotional issue. and nancy pelosi said it's immoral. she cannot back off on that stand, obviously. but how about giving him $5.6 billion more of things that are needed on the border. technology, more personnel. the things that actually work and then get something in return? that's where the negotiation could actually produce something fruitful that everybody, everybody could -- >> that is the conversation. they have offered border security. >> but it's been 1.8 and $3 billion for technology, for drones, for increased man and

woman power to staff the walls. this president is set in on the wall. for reasons that apply to his racist base and speaking directly to him. and unfortunately this is because of one person. mitch mcconnell isn't even showing his face in washington, d.c. on capitol hill. >> not speaking during negotiating. >> mitch mcconnell is as far on the other side of nancy pelosi as you can possibly be for two major stakeholders in washington, d.c., he doesn't want to go to his office, he doesn't want cameras in his face, where he'll have to justify this thing. he knows it's an unreasonable request. >> "the new york times" journalist talked about the ramifications about this. he said despite his inability to change the politics or institutions of washington, mr. trump has managed to change its culture. the capital now plays by his free-wheeling rules. speak to that if you would. you mentioned you were walking by the capital yesterday. on a day-to-day basis, how is the shutdown emblematic of the larger change we've seen in washington, d.c.? >> that's a great question.

all of us who participate in the congressional-industrial complex as we call it, lobbyists like myself and consultants and members of congress are all parts of the machine. the defining characteristic of this presidency is that he's not a part of the machine. therefore he has no veneration or frankly care or perhaps even understanding for the rules that govern overall. >> he doesn't know how the cogs fit together. >> he doesn't know how any machine works. >> one could say. and there's also another thing that he doesn't come from government. he comes from the private sector he was responsible to no one and accountable to no one, not own a board of directors. he has no problem with burning it down. even more so than the tea party of 2010. who at least came from local governments or came from city councils who understand the basic function of government. so it's a free for all and ultimately it's a wild time to be in d.c. >> but the democrats haven't come forward in a very -- obvious way to say -- okay, here's a picture of the border. show me where you want to build a wall and why. >> you're saying be clearer?

>> they have to be much clearer and when you're negotiating you have to look at what does the other side want and need? how can i give them that? and a lot of times it's a question that you would be shocked. it's the most obvious example is you're bidding on a crate of oranges and the price skyrockets because there's two bidders who absolutely want it and they talk to each other and find out one needs the skin and one needs the pulp. >> a futures from jill banks here at the table. >> i'm going to let you give me what i want. what do we get. i'll let you give me what i want. >> to a point about the president doesn't understand the cogs of government. he does understand polls, that's what he cares about more than anything and you showed that. you showed that graphic, david. his poll numbers are going down, down, down and the lower they go, the less that republicans on the hill are going to protect him and the more he knows that he's going to need to do something to change this. >> we're going to talk about the

polls. as i mentioned msnbc is going to bring you live coverage of the president's announcement at 3:00 p.m. eastern. anchored by my colleague joy reid. up ahead we're buzzing about the buzzfeed report. much more on that and robert mueller's unprecedented push-back. we recap the week. >> i never said there was no collusion between the campaign. [ laughter ] >> that is so shocking, you saw it, he shocked himself. makes it beautiful.

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i'm david gura, the rare and remarkable statement of special counsel's office, in response to the buzzfeed story reporting that president trump directed his attorney to lie to congress. buzzfeed's description of specific statements to the special counsel's office and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office regarding michael cohen's congressional testimony are not

accurate. that report one of several stories about russia investigation. the "washington post" detailing the lengths to which president trump went to conceal his conversations with russia president vladimir putin and "the wall street journal" with an incredible story on how michael cohen tried to rig polls ahead of the election to put donald trump on top. joining us for this conversation, is michael rothfield a reporter who worked on that piece for t"the wall street journal". your focus has been on the campaign finance angle of this for some time. what we've seen in the buzzfeed reporting, in the "journal's" reporting. trump tower moscow becoming a real source of focus, yes for journalists, assuming it's the focus for robert mueller as well. speak to that if you could, the port of that part of donald trump's biography. >> the importance of it is that trump was trying to get something from russia, from vladimir putin during the campaign and so that would suggest he was you know trying,

he would be beholden potentially in some way if he was trying to do that. and it worked out. >> you write about an i.t. guy, chief information officer at liberty university. an evangelical college in virginia who did some side work for michael cohen during the election. he expects to be paid. walk us through that story and what tells us about michael cohen and his relationship with president trump. what this i.t. guy did who works for jerry falwell jr. at liberty university is try at michael cohen's request to rig some online surveys or polls, they're not scientific polls, but to write a computer script that would send a million responses in favor of donald trump, into these polls and win. but he failed at that. the first one was a cnbc poll for business leaders and early 2014. and the second one was a drudge report, presidential poll in the beginning of 2015. >> and my favorite part of the cnbc one was the script didn't work. >> neither one of them worked.

trump didn't make the top 100 in the cnbc poll and he was fifth in the drudge poll. he did later win a lot of drudge surveys, but he lost that one badly. >> this piece begins with the scene of this i.t. guy comes to trump tower, michael cohen is there with a walmart bag of cash. not the $50,000 he's owed, but $12,000 or there's a great comment by mr. cohen. all money paid to mr. gabbert were by check. >> this is what he told us on the record and he was expecting a check. cohen invites him up to his office and he has this blue walmart bag and in addition he gives him a boxing glove. mixed martial arts fighter from brazil. he says that he knew a few years earlier. so he's like i'm not going to pay you the full amount, but here, take this boxing glove. >> equal consideration. >> how did you react to the piece what does it tell but michael cohen's relationship?

>> my favorite part of the story was the rigged poll about michael cohen being a sexy man. >> women for cohen. >> women for cohen. that's to me was like -- i can't believe this one. but you know there were a lot of cash payments in watergate. it reminded me of that. and there was one bag of cash that was delivered to the law firm of hunt. and there was a phone call to the lawyer, bill bittman and he was told to come down to a pay phone booth in his lobby. and he picked up a bag of cash. and that was distributed as hush money to keep the defendants from talking about what was going on. so it just is funny and it's not funny. and then of course adding to that is that cohen put in for $50,000 reimbursement. which is what he actually owed. but apparently never paid. >> one of the things that kind of surrounds everything around trump, the trump organization in some ways, the trump administration is its people doing bad things ineptly. and this is such a great example

of that. and michael cohen came out after you published the great story and said yes, i did do this and i did it all in the service of somebody who did not deserve my loyalty. donald j. trump. one could question whether setting up women for cohen constitutes something he did for donald trump. it shows the depths to which michael cohen was willing to take his own integrity and his own reputation down in the service of donald trump. and that's been a theme for so many people that they are willing to attach themselves to a man who is -- over the course of his whole career, not just his presidency, done very questionable things, shady things and yet people are still willing to attach themselves in this way. and for whatever reason? whether it's money or just being next to somebody who is you know larger-than-life figure, nothing ever ends well for these people. >> the same thing that always happens where people will do exactly that. they don't stand up and say -- well we could do that, but it's wrong. that's how watergate happened. nobody said no to the power and

the glamour and the money that was involved there. this one in particular may be one of those things that as joyce vance says, is awful but lawful. >> it's entirely consistent. i have no problem believing this gentleman because it's entirely consistent with the life in the professional universe of donald trump. stiffing contractors, he was effectively a contractor. this guy has done this to everything from sheetwall hangers to carpet hangers. they don't get all their money, they get a portion of it and a boxing glove. it doesn't cut it. >> but the stakes are so low. rigging dumb online polls? >> it is the idea that first of all it was done in service of running for president. it's the idea that the president has not surrounded himself with what we would consider the varsity of the congressional-industrial complex. of the profession of universe of politics. he surrounds himself with vagrants and ne 'er do wells.

they don't know that one should not do this one should not violate campaign finance laws there are certain rules and procedures that govern what we do. this is a profession the. and when you bring in people that are not on the varsity, they're really bad at doing bad things. >> last question here, we're talking about the silliness of this, it's a great story. help us understand the import of it. there was this allusion to the $50,000 for tech services in these filings. why is it so important? >> it's important in the sense that it's one more thing that was being done on donald trump's behalf to try to a, potentially influence the election. as we've said, a very inept ail tempt to do that. as part of charging michael cohen. it's possible it could come up when michael cohen testifies in early february. >> i know everybody expects me to make a watergate hay nalgy. when you talk about inept. it's the taking of the door to

break in the office which the guard caught. it was the stupidest thing they could have done. these are professional c.i.a. agents, it was ineptness that got them caught. >> thank you very much for joining us. up next, a story that may have been overlooked. how one judge's ruling against the trump administration could have a major impact on millions of americans. but what i do count on... is boost® delicious boost® high protein nutritional drink has 20 grams of protein, along with 26 essential vitamins and minerals. boost® high protein. be up for life. but prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

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because your investments deserve the full story. t. rowe price invest with confidence. my dbut now, i take used tometamucil every day.sh it traps and removes the waste that weighs me down, so i feel lighter. try metamucil, and begin to feel what lighter feels like. welcome back. there's going to be another census next year. and the trump administration wanted a question in there about citizenship. a federal judge says that question cannot be included and this week, the supreme court delayed arguments over whether commerce secretary wilbur ross would have to explain the back-story there. the census is a huge undertaking, a count of every individual living in the united states and where they live. it's critical for many reasons. what's perhaps most critical as

npr reporter hansi lang points out is it will determine how many electoral seats each state gets. the census burg currently closed because the u.s. government is partially shutdown. this is your beat this is a nerdy beat, but an important beat. let's start with this question. a lot of people maybe haven't been following this story. what was the question and why did the administration say it wanted it in there. >> the question asks, is this person a citizen of the united states. the trump administration says it wants it so that the justice department can better enforce parts of the voting rights act. specifically section 2 of the voting rights act which has protections against discrimination of racial and language minorities. but this lawsuit and the documents that have been released as part of it has shown that the trump administration officials, including commerce secretary wilbur ross. >> who oversees the census. >> he's the main guy in the story. he was looking at documents,

articles and discussing not about the voting rights act in the earliest documents released he was discussing apportionment. how seats in the house of representatives are distributed amongst the states after the census. >> you're watching all of this unfold. the decision was in a federal court here in manhattan. one of many cases related to this that are working through the courts at this point. huge issue here is this being such a monumental undertaking, there isn't a lot of time to sort this out. how big of an issue is it for the census department as it gets things ready to send to the printers? >> it's a huge issue. these are the final critical months, june is when all the questions have to be finalized, printing has to start for the paper forms this will be the first online census, but there will be paper forms, which will play a big role for places that don't have good hack ses to the internet and technical issues, pain will be back-up. to get the paper forms printed on time and on budget is a big

marker. >> great reporting, important reporting. this is such an important issue. it's nerdy, it's so consequential. the census haven't asked this question about citizenship since 1950. that's when the "make america great again" crowd wants to go back to. but more the white supremacy atmosphere of it that's what this is. it's about the rigged system of redistricting. it's about giving republicans more power and gerrymandering districts. it's a steve bannon idea, he gave it to wilbur ross, has no business in that job. sadly they actually said, this is going to be, the reasoning for it was that they said this will, this is good, so it doesn't discriminate against minorities. you see, it's the opposite of that. this, they don't want to count undocumented people. the census is so important. it comes at a very consequential

time. we have to be talking about this. >> isn't the real consequence of this, people who aren't citizens will refuse to answer. >> that's exactly right. >> so we won't get an accurate count of people. >> and the administration would be fine with that. >> except those that have kids in schools, classroom sizes 40 and more because these kids aren't counted. it's extremely count them. 161 mayors wrote a letter to wilbur ross demanding that they don't put this question in here. because it will screw up their cities. >> the legacy of the fight happening, the debate about this question being in there. even that may have a dampening effect on the response to the survey. >> i talked to a lot of census advocates who are worried that the well has been tainted. there's been so much talk about it and this has been kind of the main census story that people are hearing about that people are worried about what exactly the government will do with this information that's collected and important to remember there's federal law that prohibits the census bureau from releasing any information identifying individuals for 72 years after

its collected. but the question is, will the public trust that. >> hansi, great to see you, great reporting, you got to have your granola with your doughnuts as well. hansi lo wang of npr. up next, from the 2020 census, to the 2020 campaign. in my past i said and believed things that were wrong. my views have changed significantly since then. i sincerely repeat my apology today. >> why congressman gelsi gabbert is not the only congressperson whose past views could come back to haunt her. ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪

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talk to your doctor about mavyret. clear. you're saying you will not get out of the race and run for president and serve your six years. >> i will serve my six year term. >> senator gillibrand in october, before announcing she is exploring a run for president, spending time in iowa, not the first time she shifted her position. previously she pushed for more deportations and now she says this is her view on this issue. >> i don't think i.c.e. today is working as intended. >> you think we should get rid of the agency? >> i believe it is a deportation force and i think you should separate the criminal justice from the immigration issues and reimagine i.c.e. under a new agency. >> let's spend these next few minutes talking about political evolution. beth, start with you. dave weekle had a great piece in the "washington post."

many ways to diffy up the field. dividing the evolved candidates who the ones who never really changed. >> she says it is organic, honest, representing an upstate district and went to brooklyn and saw how things were outside of that upstate district. how big of an issue for her? >> that's her answer and she is sticking to it. >> she ran for congress, in an upstate district which continues to be very purple. you don't want to get on the wrong side of certainishes up there including guns. she was a big gun gal back then and people joked she was annie oakley before she changed. and now representing the larger state. she has a good answer. she evolved. what can one say? you're allowed to change your mind. the one danger, and politician does this all the time, and people who say they serve the first full six year term, it happens. >> it happens. >> for gillibrand, the danger here is when people elect women, what they want to see is people

who are actually honest and who they say they are. and so perhaps women candidates runs, certainly running for the highest office of the land will get scrutinized on the issue of authenticity a little bit more than men and senator gillibrand is going for the gender lane a lot of women in the race and she is grabbing this gender lane. >> i think it is great she will center gender issues and i think she is one of 25 top tier democrat, if you have a shot, shoe absolutely give it a shot, this is a particularly vulnerable president. i think she will face a dilemma which white democrats face in this primary season, having to move to the left to be competitive after having essentially come to congress and particularly be appointed to the senate as a straight-up moderate. like you said, the gun stuff and the moderate appeal is part of why governor paterson appointed her in the first place. she is not the only one who will have this as a straight up dilemma. >> from 2014 when mike am brown was killed in my neighborhood in st. louis, you have a direct shift to minorities, young women, women of color, having an

extraordinarily outsized voice in the democratic party process, and people like senator gillibrand will have to, you know, walk that tight rope. and it's not going to be easy. >> i want to ask you about senator al franken. we haven't brought him up yet in this conversation. out front. in getting him out of that job. a senator from minnesota. is that a hindrance to her or something that she will tout? >> it could be a hindrance. but it shoot no be, it should na hindrance. because she was right. 100% right. say what you say on her record in the past like issues like immigration, she is amazing when it comes to issues for women, whether it be in the military or on campus, when it comes to sexual assault, harassment, domestic abuse, violence against women, senator gillibrand has a really, really good record. and she was consistent with what she said about al franken. and i, for one person, support her. she's my senator. i grew up in upstate new york. the salt city shaker. chicago. and upstate new york, as beth

mentioned earlier, upstate new york, most of new york, is rural. it is more conservative. and that's where she comes from. and now she represents all of new york. sometimes when you learn new things, do you evolve. >> the al franken thing, i think what i hear from people, that's one of the issues they will not forgive her for. he had feel she went way too far out on attacking him. >> what do you think? >> well, i think, i have personal knowledge of al franken and i think that he was right to resign, and that if it took her or anybody else to push him in that direction, it was the right thing to do. i think he was a terrific senator. and i really thought he had a big future. and i'm sorry that it happened. but in this age, and you know, you never know what is going to be the thing that is going to turn. >> who would have thought harvey weinstein created the me too movement and led to his ouster. >> thanks for coming. we will have to leave it there. in new york for the hour.

tomorrow, my guest christina grere, lee gallagher, and mike pesca and caliper ry. up next, more on the buzz feed buzz kill. robert mueller making a rare comment on a rare report. plus the question, almost every congressional democrat is asking at the one month mark. >> he is not in the capitol building and not on the floor of the senate, and 800,000 people don't have their paychecks. 0 pee don't have their paychecks (burke) parking splat. and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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