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clip of dr. king that was incredible. >> thank you. >> you have a pa that i'm thinking about -- >> we'll talk. >> okay. >> very good day everyone from msnbc. it is 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome. >> i am here today to break the law. >> not so fast. the president's plan stopped in its tracks after another national appeal. it is rejected by democrats and his some of his die hard supporters but not all. >> if you bring a plan to him that doesn't include a wall it is dead as 4:00. >> the debate over the wall, barriers, slats, fence, it rages on. plus a new report on what prompted mueller and whether the president spoke to his fixer about in his testimony in congress. you just knowledged that it

is possible that president trump talk to -- >> which to would be perfectly normal. >> rudy giuliani and the timing of the president's efforts to make a deal with russia on a tower. first, new reaction from the white house as democrats and republicans struggle to find common ground. day 30 on this impasse with no end in sight. the president still wants 5.7 billi $5.7 billion for a border wall. the government is not funded by tuesday then 800,000 federal workers will miss their second paycheck friday. democrats hoping for an opening in the negotiations.

>> both sides have completely hardened their positions and are unwilling to come together and work out the differences and that's the problem here. >> what the president proposed yesterday, increasing border security, looking at tps and the dreamers, i'll use that as a starting point but you have got to start by opening government. >> the few elements, get those resolved. get the government back open. it is absurd. >> another major development this morning. telling nbc news that negotiations extended beyond previously known dates and it

improves why trump was denying wh any business in russia. >> it is our understanding that they went on throughout 2016. can't be sure the exact date. it is probably up to could be up to as far as november or december. it is until the election. any time during that period they could have talked about it. the president's recollection of it is the thing had peted out quite a bit. >> the house intelligence committee reacting to the revelation. squl that >> that is news to me. most voters, you name it, that knowing that the republican nominee was actively trying to do business in moscow and those negotiations were ongoing while up until the election i think that's a relevant fact for voters to know. >> we are following this hour's

new development at the white house and mike on capitol hill. welcome to you both. first to you kelly here we have two big pieces of news. one, the timing of the russia tower deal and the other on the cohen testimony. fill us in. >> one of the things we have heard many times is that he had no business dealings with russia. russia didn't have any kind of control over him because he didn't owe money. he said that in a lot of different times and places. he also said this is something that he consider bed but didn't act on. it seemd like a new piece of information. it is especially that he will be

appearing on capitol hill again. he was of course convicted for lying and for other financial crimes and will be reporting for a prison sentence in the spring. there is time pressure to get michael cohen in front of house democrats. today the president's lawyer also talked about interactions that the president may have had with cohen before the massive falling out. there is a difficulty in understanding what the president's lawyers are saying about conversations between the president and cohen and was there anything improper there? here is a combination of a couple of answers on meet the press. >> are you 100% confident that the president never once asked michael cohen to do anything but tell the truth to congress? >> 100% certain. his council to michael cohen was tell the truth. >> as far as i know president

trump did not have any discussions which he told him or counciled him to lie. if they had any they would be about the events that michael cohen gave which they all believe are true. >> you knowledged that it is possible trump talk to cohen. >> which would be perfectly normal. >> so it the possible that that happened? >> i don't know if it happen or didn't happen. it might be attorney/client privileged. i had no knowledge that he spoke to them. >> so the president did nothing wrong but as you listen through that, alex, our viewers can make their own judgments about whether they think it was a full and complete answer or if it resolved any of the questions, alex. >> yeah. i have an answer to your last statement. i'll leave it be and pose perhaps this next question. thank you for that. joining me now is white house correspondent, washington

co correspondent. do you have an answer to the last question that kelly asked there or stated? did giuliani clear anything up today? >> he cleared something up in a sense that you have a statement on the record from the president's lawyer saying he did not do anything illegal in telling cohen to lie to congress which would be clear obstruction of justice. of course giuliani has said a lot of things and can contradict himself. the question is really whether people believe that and take him at that word. >> and i'm curious how significant you think it is. he has moved the goal post now on the moscow project talks. >> sure. yeah. in terms of the timing of when trump was talking about that. you know, that's -- if trump was talking about the moscow deal up

until the election it means he was still negotiating that even after he had been warned about the u.s. intelligence of russian influence operations. it adds a new context to trump's denials and new contacts to some of the softer things he had been saying about putin. cohen will testify before the house in a couple of weeks. i'm sure one of the first questions is did the president instruct you to lie? >> we watched giuliani over the past couple of years. do you get the sense that he is becoming more and more like his boss? he is shooting from the hip here. you have to talk to someone to drill down on these issues. the person that is willing to go

on tv and answer questions. he is completely unbelievable. he contradicts himself on issues of whether he knows there were conversations at all between the president and michael cohen about his testimony within the same television appearance. it's not clear if he knows what he knows or if trump told him these things. here we are trying to get through something that has very little value. that's what we have when you drill down to the bottom of it. >> what about the response to the buzz feed story? he gave a much more definitive answer. what do you make of that? >> so, you know, going off of what charlie was saying we are trying to make sense of this.

no one has seen or none of the press has seen the documents that may have contributed to that. the question is what the special council knows about what trump may have talked to cohen about and whether there was any illegal activity. >> what's your take on that? >> well, the really extraordinary step makes me think that this is an area in which -- that may have been a read hearing. it doesn't look like there is something there to really latch onto at this point. i doubt that cohen will answer questions about this because the

special council will not let him talk about stuff which includes the russia and trump tower thing. one other thing, i do think it is the case that giuliani said that the written answer they had given to mueller included the possibility about trump tower going through the election through a couple of weeks ago. to that extent saying that's what they had said is not entirely new today. >> okay. we are all watching for cohen, that's for sure. stay with me. we'll get the latest ton shutdown in day 30. of course rejected out of hand

by nancy pelosi and following that lead. they want the government opened first before they will negotiate anything. it would put us back to president trump are not going to go for that. that is mcconnell blasted out his statements saying he was going to bring the president's proposal to the floor. that is a change for mcconnell. he was saying it had to be negotiated. what if he doesn't get to the 60 votes to start debate on that bill? then what happens to republicans unity in the senate? that is something to look for. the senator from louisiana, a republican, here is how he summed up things this morning. >> it represents progress, not perfection but progress.

pelosi's response was predictable. i can promise you the more senseless are glad the president put something on the table. the third point i will make is i talked to the president for this issue for about an hour last week. if you bring a plan to him that doesn't include a wall it is dead as 4:00. >> okay. i'm not sure what that means but i think it means that the president is not negotiating on the money. democrats say the president is offering a temporary fix for daca and temp rir fix for tps in exchange for a permanent wall and they are not going for it. >> i'm kind of thinking 4:00 was offended. >> yeah. >> all right. thank you so much. appreciate that. same question to both of you. did the president succeed in shifting public pressure on democrats after yesterday's

announcement? which do you see as being on the defensive side now? >> it is still trying to not give an inch. i think part of the the his offer to grant temporary relief to the dreamers would be removing a problem that he himself created by giving the order to recend the daca program. it is not really from the democratic perspective. thank you for that kind offer. it's also a little bit weird because justice department has said that the program was illegal. by what legal authority could he extend it? it shows a certain bad faith. that said it has been a problem which both sides leadership wise have been completely dug in and mcconnell, the fact that he is willing to take on apparently of his flank and mcconnell that

will put something on the floor does indicate an inch towards progress. it starts to see there could be light at the end of the tunnel. >> we'll see. to you, your thought sns. >> i agree with charlie. trump initially was saying he didn't want toem them -- mike pence was very clear in saying that trump was persuaded in conversations that this is the right thing to do. this proposal is a result of listening to democrats and trying to work with them. of course many democrats including pelosi have already said it is a nonstarter. it represents a little bit of motion. i think it shows particularly on the republican side and that he is willing to start opening up a little bit more to some negotiation to try to end this. >> okay. good to see you both.

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that's how xfinity makes tv... simple. easy. awesome. so you wouldn't rule out a wall? >> i would not rule out a wall in certain instances. the notion that we can't have barriers is just something that's not true. clearly democrats are for border

security but we are not for this constantly moving the ball just far talking point. >> chair of the homeland security committee on whether they would be willing to discuss funtding the wall. is it a problem among democrats? i spoke with katie hill who said she believes in supporting piecing of a wall. you have pelosi saying i'm not paying more than $1 for a wall. >> i think president trump is intractable. even when he spoke yesterday he never said a thing about the government employees that aren't working. these are real human beings. it's not okay we have six other

departments that are close. he'll only talk about a wall. i don't know a democrat. i keep telling you this, that doesn't care about national security. national security is much broader than this wall and quite frankly the wall he talks about isn't even effected. we need to talk about how we keep our borders safe including let's start with fuelling the 3,000 jobs. >> so have you agree today a $5.7 billion when it was about 11 months ago that they said we'll give you $25 billion in exchange for daca being fully implemented. where enlies the difference now? >> we need to reopen the government. we have six departments. we'll bring to the floor of the house this week.

it is senate and house negotiators. >> but to the president he can't distinguish between the two concepts he can't. >> he should. >> what are the -- i don't disagree with you. what i'm saying is why would the president then believe when you have pelosi saying i'm not giving him more than $1 for the wall. why do you believe there would be anything to negotiate? >> pelosi said she will talk about border security. there is a whole number of things that we need to do. we need to secure -- by the way, let talk about securing our ports which is where most of those illegal drugs that he talked about yesterday are coming in. i just taukd about that border patrol. we need to be using more increased technology. there are parts that whatever -- a wall, a fence, we have -- along that border there is water

that a wall doesn't even work? . >> is donald trump the one that is to the prospect of a visual huge wall? it was concretes and whatever it is, 20, 30 feet high is he the one that has to be convinced you can be equally effected with infrared, any number of things? increased border patrols? does the problem lie exclusively with him or is it with republicans that are backing him as well? >> look, quite frankly president trump said i own this shutdown. this shutdown is where our major problem is. during his campaign he said i will build a wall. the wall has become a symbol to him. what we need to be doing, and let's have a real conversation, is how do we keep our nation safe? how do we keep the border safe? that is not the wall.

we are goings to see a major problem happen by public service that isn't happening be it tsa or how long that the tsa workers will stay in place? do you know that the four or five groups, the coast guard not being paid, tsa, fbi, secret service isn't being paid, custom and border patrol isn't being paid. these guys are worried about what's happening at home. >> and if things aren't resolved soon i don't think they will be able to distinguish between republicans and democrats. let me ask you something, the big news with thousands of women taking to the streets. >> justice is about making sure it is not the same thing as being quiet.

in fact oftentimes the most righteous thing you can do is shake the table. >> shake the table tlchhere. do you think they can get the change that voters want to see? >> when you take her words and her -- you know, this freshman class has got a lot of energy and a lot of passion. i haven't been afraid to shake the table over my career. i have a different style than many people do. i talk to everybody. if you want to bring about change some times you do have to shake the table. i think we need to embrace this energy and passion and combine it with seasoning. it is the result in the room, the president that worries more than any of our freshmen right now. >> speaking of talking to everybody -- >> i'm more excited to talk to

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giuliani says were active as

late as november 2016. take a listen. >> it's our understanding that they went on throughout 2016, not a lot of them but there were conversations. can't be sure of the exact dates but the president was having conversations about it probably up to could be up to as far as october, november. our answers cover until the election. >> an active potential deal. >> yeah. i would say an active proposal. >> joining me now are two former federal prosecutors. big welcome to you both. ladies first here. you heard giuliani confirm negotiations lasted until november of 2016. if true trump was secretly

trying to strike a deal with moscow even after warning of the count counter intelligence. does this matter from a legal perspective at all? >> beside the fact that it matters that the president is a liar and that he was telling the american people he had no business dealings with russia and he was briefed in august of 2016 by the fbi which apparently he did not bother to tell them about this deal, it matters this way. it backs up the general impression and he did nothing about it. when we know he went in and lied -- i'm sorry, that cohen went into the congress and he lied, when he did that the president knew he was lying. that is a failure to faithfully execute the laws and will

eventually come back around. >> interestingly giuliani also says that trump may have spoken about his testimony beforehand. let's take a listen to that. >> you just knowledged that it is president that president trump talk about his -- >> which would be perfectly normal. >> i'm quite sure it is. i agree with cynthia that all of this matters. the problem it is coming from an unreliable source. what giuliani says has no value if you think about the short history he said at first the president knew nothing and he said he did know about the stormy daniels payoff.

the assertions can't be viewed as fact chul. to pick and choose which ones i think we need to await mueller's indictments and report before we can really pull the curtain back on the nonsensible claims. siem curious your take and how credible can we expect cohen to

be here you are to think it is if he is a cooperating witness. >> i think it's not a good idea. i'm dying to hear. from a prosecutor's point of view you don't really want your witness in a house committee where jim looked the other way and jordan is doing a cross exam. there will be ugly yelling and screaming. that's weird set up. what has happened is people like jim jordan are framing this case. even if mueller doesn't allow him to testify it will dissolve into a circus. we want to control the way the

witness, you know, maybe he will never be a witness. but the way it is presented to the jury. because of way it is it is never doing to happen. let me make one more comment about giuliani. what if you did talk to him? mueller was appointed may of 2017. cohen had no business discussing his testimony with the president of the jiets united states -- it one more thing that's a consciousness. >> do you agree with her? >> i do agree with her. statements of attorneys are generally not add messable.

i use that broadly against the clients. all of the statements ultimately will probably never see the light of day inside a courtroom or impeachment hearing. it is about what trump says and what mueller has found out. you know, we are going to have to wait on bob mueller. >> all right. i'm glad to have you both with us. >> that's yus. republicans turning on steve king, but what took them so long? ng, buwht at took them so long after months of wearing only a tiger costume, we're finally going on the trip i've been promising. because with expedia, i saved when i added a hotel to our flight. ♪ so even when she outgrows her costume, we'll never outgrow the memory of our adventure together. unlock savings when you add select hotels to your existing trip.

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this bears repeating. it is day 30 of the partial government shutdown. groceries are flying off of shelves like pop-up food banks. >> i'm with department of commerce. yeah. four weeks, no check. i think i cry every day. this morning i prayed for compassion that there would be compassion from the federal government, the politicians, have compassion for us. send us back to work. >> joining me now, former president and ceo and then former candidate of governor for maryland. thinking about tears and prayers and all of that people trying to get by. it is heartbreaking right now.

i know your state has been hit hard by the shutdown. what are you hearing about how people are coping? >> folks were disheartened that the president when he gave his comments didn't say one word about our workers. >> right. >> about our workers that have been furloughed. he has made comments in past weeks. most of them are people and they serve our country and deserve our respect regardless of party or color or anything else. for the president, you know, to not show any sympathy to them is simply disturbing. >> last time i checked they don't ask you if you are democrat or republican they are keeping all americans safe. >> that's right. that's the deep irony of this. all of the people that are keeping us safe. it is tsa, the coast guard. you know, it's the border patrol.

our borders have never been less safe than they are right now. the president is stressing all of the workers. >> there is extraordinary irony. >> i think i was very clear. his meants were racist. under the guidance stripped him of committee assignments. >> why do you think republicans are taking action now and did they go far enough and what about the president? >> steve is too blatant for them. the spirit of what he says for half a century.

you know, this has been building for some time through the trump campaign and through ronald reagan and launching his campaign in mississippi. it is just a few miles from where they were and talking about states rights. they have sought to court white supremacists for a very long time. i think steve king is a bit too blatant. >> he was reportedly fundraising off of his comments saying that he was being targeted because of his support for the president. i mean what is he trying to accomplish there? >> i think frankly steve king sees donald trump as a great leader who they can look up to. you know, we have seen the ku klux klan marching with their recruitment phone number ending in trump. we have seen them saying that

russia is our friend. what is going on inside the gop is quite disturbing. they really need to stop supporting trump. watching them be afraid of trump is deeply depressing for me. you know, here, you know, we recall that it was a long time ago but there was a time when republicans actually stood up for civil rights. we just don't see that. you know, they either are outspoken against them or they cowar. >> i do want to ask as we look at tomorrow and celebrate mlk day, what do you think of the racial environment all of these years? >> we have to really get back to pulling our country together. we had great hope a few years ago that we were raising the first generation that truly would be united across racial

lines. we have seen this presidency to tear a deep divide through our country. what that means as it comes down to all of us, deciding we will stand up for our brothers and sisters. dr. king told us if there were three great triplets that we had to fight against racism and greed and we need to frankly get back to doing that to pulling our country together so we can all move forward. >> always good to talk to you. appreciate it. >> thank you. we invite all of you to watch headliners tonight at 9:00 eastern and then following that at 10:00 eastern we will air hope and fury, the movement and media. it explores how social movements and the civil rights movement through today. after the president's offer to congress yesterday is he still walled in as this week's new yorker cover says? neyow rker cover says?

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government shutdown day 30 and the president is taking to twitter to vent his frustration, writing, nancy pelosi and some

of the democrats turned down my offer yesterday before i even got up to speak. they don't see crime and drugs. they only see 2020 which they are not going to win, best economy. joining me now, former democratic governor of vermont, howard dean, msnbc political analyst susan del percio and msnbc political analyst, carlos car bello. so the democrats did turn down the offer before he spoke. could that turn out to be a risky move? do you think democrats may appear just as unwilling to compromise as they accuse the president of being? >> look, trump is using the same technique he used not to pay his subcontractors throughout his real estate career. he basically took a whole bunch of stuff away from the people that we care about which are americans along the border and people who have lived here for 20 years with american residency. he took that away from them and then he offered it to give it back if we give him $5.7

billion. it's extortion. >> temporarily. >> right. it's extortion. we're not going to do it. it's a silly offer. he was never serious. it's typical trump bs. >> i want to play what kirsten gillibrand said this morning. >> we said we will give you the border security money that you want, we will let you start doing the things that you want to do but you must protect all the dreamers. that was something we were willing to talk about. that is still there for him. the fact that he's saying three years just for daca just shows that he's not serious and he doesn't actually care about moving the country forward. >> wait, susan, if that is truly still there for the president when they agreed to give him $25 billion, do you think that could be a viable path forward? is it still there? >> the president rejected that offer. that was the problem. he agreed to it and then at the last minute he pulled the plug much like he did at the end of last year in december which has

led us to this shoutdown which is about to enter its second month. the president did put something out there, to go to your earlier question, to the governor, i think there may be a little miscalculation by the democrats to respond before the president even spoke, because as we do enter the second month, i definitely think that the president does own this shutdown, but as millions of people are affected by it, not just the 800,000 furloughed but their families and other vendors, we're going to see people blaming washington in general, and that will start taking a toll on everyone. i think it's time that the house bring back their offer. at least start the negotiation. i think it was a mistake the president did it the way he did yesterday. there was no reason to go on television, but that's how he chose to do it. but now they have to look like they're negotiating because this is now, like i said, entering its second month. >> congressman, do you think the president thinks, ah, if only i could turn back the hands of time and go back to that offer

that i rejected? and the question to you really is, why did he reject that offer? is he someone who gets so easily influenced by, say, the twitter feed of someone like ann coulter that he gets poisoned by that and it turns his mind, he doesn't want that kind of bad pr among his base? >> that's right. the president does change his mind often and he is influenced by some of these individuals on conservative media. i do think there are probably some regrets in the white house about not taking advantage of a couple big opportunities they had in the last congress to advance immigration reform. but here's the bottom line and i agree with susan, up until yesterday the president fully owned this shoutdoutdown becaus asked for it. he said in front of the country and speaker pelosi and leader schumer that he would be the one to shut down the government. however, yesterday he did take a step in the right direction and i think democrats were wrong to

summarily reject the president's proposal. what they should do, they don't have to accept what the president is proposing. what they should do is make a counter offer. they claim a lot of us worked in the last congress to protect dreamers, to protect tps beneficiaries. here's an opportunity to say let's do something permanent for them or at least do six years instead of three years. just saying no is really going to turn off a lot of americans who aren't part of the democratic base. >> in terms of picking up on the word permanent, howard, democrats have been taking the stance that funding a border wall, a physical structure, a permanent structure, would be immoral. but back in early 2018 as i said, they were willing to trade the $25 billion in funding for that path to citizenship for the dreamers. so how can they justify their current assertion of moral high ground when it didn't seem like it was a morality question last year? >> the problem is trump's word is no good. it's never been any good since he was born really.

so nobody trusts him. he changes the rules. he pulls the plug. he says one thing. don't forget, a bill to fully fund the government passed the senate and the house, and trump then pulled the plug and mitch mcconnell, who is absolutely as complicit in this as donald trump is, pulled the plug on that. this is republican nonsense. it's republican b.s. it's a republican shutdown. we're happy to negotiate but we're not negotiating with blather, b.s. and trump phoniness that he's exhibited his entire career. >> look, back to the whole ann coulter thing and the twitter feed, susan, it's no secret that the right wing pundits are in the president's ear and the congressman has agreed with you on that, but yesterday ann coulter tweeted, trump proposes amnesty. we voted for trump and got jeb. do you, susan, feel like you're getting jeb and not trump with this president? >> i wish we had jeb. but that's just me. >> me too. >> me too.

>> all in agreement. end of conversation. i'm just kidding, go ahead. >> but that being said, i mean, the president was very fond of coming out with a line early on in his presidency, i'm president and you're not, and that's exactly what he should tell the commentators out there. there's no one doing him any favors. he's got to be the president and abl act like it. >> congressman, are speaker pelosi's hands tied here? is it possible she would like to end the shutdown but she can't accept a deal with border wall funding because it won't be supported by the caucus of democrats? >> that's right. speaker pelosi -- and i got to know her over the last four years -- is at heart an institutionalist but she has the same dynamic that the republicans had for 8 years when they were in the majority. there's a left flank that's very powerful, that essentially has veto power and that's going to make it more difficult to make a deal. however, time is running out and i think at some point she's going to have to convince liberal democrats in her caucus

that it's time to move forward, that we have to put an end to this. everyone has to get back at the table. by the way, i propose miami as a place where people can negotiate. there are no signs of the polar vortex here as you can tell and i think it might miake it more likely we reach a deal. >> we've just booked our tickets to miami. thank you all so much. so did we learn a new and potentially explosive detail about president trump's efforts to build a tower in russia? we have that new information next. russia we he avthat new information next he background and she's watching too, saying [indistinct conversation] [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪

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