king jr. speaking at the march on washington, march 28th, 1963. >> and democrats balk at president's plan to reopen the government. and trump might have talked about building a trump tower. some big implications there. >> and another summit with north korea's dictator is taking shape. we're going to ask a top expert on the regime why. welcome to "morning joe," it is monday, january 21st. we have national international

affairs reporter john heilemann, nick cko con physical -- confis, heidi pryzbyla. we begin with president trump's proposal to fund the wall. apparently that's the only way to end the shut down, even though democrats are unitsed in opposition. it is trump's first public offer to democrats since the shutdown began on december 22nd. now at 31 days and counting.

house speaker nancy pelosi called the proposal a nonstarter and said his offers of protection do not represent a good faith effort to restore certainty to people's lives. trump's proposal came a day after reporting that the supreme court is unlikely to hear the strae administration's appeal to a lower court ruling that blocked him from shutting daca down manning it will stay in place for at least ten more months. trump tweeted several times about nancy pelosi and told her to clean up the streets in san francisco, calling them disgusting. >> if a high school daca person were to accept this deal, in

three years what would happen if that person is away in school trying to get a college degree or some other secondary education of pursuit and look up three years expired and they were back where they were before. >> what if the president made those daca provisions permanent. what that change the situation? >> yes, it would, tps as well. >> something that vice president said they will reject. >> you can open the government tomorrow. the house has passed bills to open the government tomorrow. why don't you sign this many and open the government and then you can negotiate about this? >> because i mean, frankly, chris, the american people want us to work on their priorities

and secure the bored arder. >> oh, my gosh, john heilemann. this shutdown has mass of implications. bottom line, are we any closer to opening it up? >> i don't think we're anywhere appreciably closer. first of all, the president is not in the mood to negotiate. what the president put on the table on saturday was not the product of any negotiation, it was a white house offer and one in a democrats rejected so rapidly and unequivocally, it suggests that they believe they're on the right in the substance but also they think the politics are working in their favor. you could have imagined in proposal as part of a genuine negotiation being a starting point but not as kind of a

unilateral after there on at democrats. this is not close to where the ending point needs to be. you can imagine having this as a starting point for the beginning of a negotiation but i was a little surprised at how forcibly and quickly the democrats rejected it out of hand. >> nick, what is most likely the next move? moving forward, who goes next? >> the president has offered to solve pro problems he created and in return he's asking for something the majority of the country is against. i think the actual reason why the democrats have been so firm is not to embarrass the president but the fact is if they let him win now and use the shut down to extract policy concessions he can get a different way, he will do it over and over again. if you let an unpopular president pull through an

unpopular policy with the government as hostage, it will be his only policy path for most of his agenda. that would be a dark two years for the party and everybody else. >> president trump is facing blow back from a number of his supporters and immigration hardliners over his offer to end the government shutdown. commentator ann coulter tweeted on saturday, "there are a million things to trade for a wall, a higher federal minimum wage, an infrastructure bill, trade a wall for amnesty and there's no purpose for having a wall? the president apparently heard the criticism saying "amnesty is not a part of my offer. it is a three-year extense of

daca. amnesty will be used only on a much bigger deal whether on immigration or something else. who's advising the president? is it ann coulter on twitter? is that where we are? >> i don't think so. it's rebuffed his right flank. his move is rather savvy. it's revealed the farce of this thing. li likewise, democrats have been forced to say we would entertain something like a wall for a permanent daca fix.

the fact that this is all happening in public means we're still at the posturing stage. >> at this point where does the state of the union stand? >> i reached out to some moderate democrats in the senate because clearly this was an attempt to move this issue over to the senate. my reporting is that mitch mcconnell picked up the phone and called the president and said, look, nancy pelosi is not going to budge on this, you need to shake things up. that's why the proposal came to move this to the senate and pressure moderate democrats. it was in short order that we heard from some of these democrats like mark warner, who was one of the number one targets. he represents a state with a lot of federal workers. look nick said, this is not even about the details at this point of the negotiation, it's about

the principle of having the negotiation at a time when in the democrats' word you're holding 800,000 federal workers hostage that democrats refuse to have this negotiation while the government is shut down because this will happen again and again and we're already seeing evidence of that in that groups, including pro-life groups are already saying why are we having a shut down over a wall? we should have a shutdown over planned parenthood funding. that's why they're going to have to find some kind of a vehicle to meet halfway on this. this cannot be a full negotiation, mika, to have this kind of a grand bargain while the government is shut down and federal workers are suffering. in the pa the vehicle has always been because we've had these time and given over other issues like obamacare and the vehicle has always been some kind of a temporary spending bill to try and use that time to work out a

negotiation. at this point, we're not even there yet and the specifics are very far apart in terms of the daca deal. so when is that halfway measure going to materialize? doesn't see it yet. >> reverend al, taclk to me abot the daca offer. >> it's not an offer at all. when the president says i'm going to give three years here, when you look at the fact in three years he will, if he survives the mueller investigation, he'll be reasunn for president, there is no stability there. the thing that hits home on martin luther king day is we're acting look 800,000 people are not sitting there wondering how

they're going to buy gas and groceries while we're playing this posturing game. this is not about trump versus nancy pelosi. this is about 800,000 people that work for the federal government, some of them that secure us at airports that now don't know where their next paycheck is coming from. to be so hearts wiless that we' playing this political chess game and using workers as pawns does not speak well of this president when he makes an offer is only putting back some of the things that who took away, that's not a negotiation, that's a negation. to talk to this nation and ignore the federal workers who are not getting paid, not even giving them a sense of empathy

or sensitivity was unforgivable. >> he tweeted later saying great patriots. >> too little too late. >> we're going to get to the ramifications of the shutdown, the implications on the economy and the lives of the american people who are not getting paychecks. the president's legal team just extended the timeline yet again concerning discussions to build a trump tower in moscow. first, michael cohen told congress talks with russians ended in january of 2016. then it was thought to be june of 2016. and rudy giuliani said there was active discussions until at last october or november of 2016. in an interview with the "new york times," giuliani quoted the president as saying that trump

tower moscow discussions were, quote, going on from the day i announced until the day i won. here is giuliani on "meet the press." >> it's my understanding there was conversations throughout 2016. there weren't a lot of them. can't remember the dates. >> throughout 2016? >> yeah, probably as far as up to october or november. our answers cover until the election. >> as far as the president is concerned an active project, an active potential deal until at least october 2016? >> i would say an active proposal. >> as the "times" points out, the new timeline was still out there when trump sought a deal

to end sanctions on russians, when he questioned the legitimacy of nato and during his infamous russia if you're listening remarks about hillary clinton's e-mails. rudy giuliani at this point, it seems like any interviews you do with him, the answers could be backtracked in realtime. doesn't seem like he cares about talking about the truth. is it smart for trump to keep putting giuliani out there? >> i think he's actively committed to not telling the truth. the point has been to be a giant smoke/fog machine and he spends a lot of time belching out literally things that are designed to confuse or distract.

there's not asongle lawyer that i know who is either in the defense world at the high levels who would say that giuliani was smart given from the president's point of view, the mueller's office extraordinary statement about buzzfeed on friday was a big victory on them. he could have camped out on that. instead he threw out these things that are potentially damaging. nick, from every possible angle, the trump tower moscow deal stinks to high heaven and the, tension of the timeline, well, as long as he wasn't talking about it once he was

president-elect is okay. but you can say what was wrong with it was it was all taking place in secret. there was not an american voter who had any idea that these conversations were taking place. we at least believe they went now through november or december. that was material information that any american voters would have wand have wanted to know about yet they were concealed. >> forget collusion and russian interference. a major candidate for president who became the nominee, spent the entire election in negotiations with a foreign power who is our adversaradvers trying to extract confessions and make a deal that would make that candidate a huge amount of

money, a huge score, and was saying things on the campaign trail that were unusual for a candidate for president and were thanksgiving that putin would want to hear, a tax on nato, for example. in a by itself in any other era would be a massmassive, massive scandal. >> it is and giuliani thinks it's exculpatory. >> let ta's talk about the buzzd story. are you surprised there hasn't by any other reporting backing it up and what do you make of buzzfeed standing by their store? john? >> it is extraordinary that mueller's office put out the statement it did. >> extraordinary. >> there is a lot of debate over the weekend about how much of a blanket denial that statement was, how did he read it, how did he construct it, whether tfs

saying all aspects of the buzzfeed story were false. to eevaluate the story you would need to know a lot more. clearly something material and significant the special counsel's office believes was wrong. and that's a problem for people in journalism. without knowing the facts and knowing what's in dispute and what the actual facts are of the reporting process, et cetera, it hard to evaluate what mueller said and it's hard to evaluate b buzzfeed reporting on the story. and donald trump, who had sort of pinned to the mat, this is a moment where he and his allies were able to get up off the mat.

nick, you have thoughts on this matter, i can tell. >> there's a twitch. i do think we should not give in the habit of giving prosecutors so much deference that we assume their statements are accurate and reporting is not accurate. sometimes prosecutors lie or shade the truth. however, i did interpret the at the same time from osc as a very direct denial of the core premise of the story, as a direct denial that cohen had told these things to osc. that is the key thing. it's also important to point out that this is also a piece of information that was missing from the request for comment that buzzfeed had sent in to the spokesperson and perhaps is why there wasn't more of a pushback from that prerson here. i any thethink there is a real n mark on this story. >> one of the things relates to

whether cohen relayed that was in to the special prosecutor's office and the other is whether the claim that the special counsel's office had been privy to -- prior to cohen saying those things, privy to other things, notes and material inside the trump organization. those two seem to be the factual assertions that are most controversial and i think one of the questions is was the special counsel denying both of those things or one of them? clearly it's got to be one of the two or both. if either one of them is not true, it's pretty serious and end story. >> why did bob mueller push back while staying silent on so many other bomb shells. plus, the president is planning to sit down with kim jong un. the regime gets to boost its global profile but what does the

white house hope to get in return? first, here's a check on the aftermath of the winter storms. michelle? >> we have icy spots across the area so take care as you head out. we're talking about potentially deadly cold air. in pink are wind chills 35 below zero. you want to dress head to toe in layers, light, loose layers be trap that heat inside. new york city justle, feels like 14 below zero, minus 6 in burlington and minus 10 in

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we've agreed to meet sometime end of february. we've expected a country but we'll be announcing it sometime in the future. kim jong un is looking forward to it and so am i. we've made a lot of progress as far as denuclearization is concerned. >> the week the president sad we have made, quote, tremendous progress with north korea.

on the other hand you said you are still waiting for them to make concrete steps. they don't seem to go together. >> they go perfectly together. what the president refers to, because of his strong stand and his engagement with kim jong un at that first summit in singapore, no testing of nuclear weapons, no firing -- >> but they're not denuclearized. >> there will be a second summit and we'll lay out our expectations for north korea to take concrete steps to make real what kim jong un committed to. again, the president is very optimistic. >> vice president mike pence attempted to clarify the contrasting statements coming from the administration regarding denuclearization on the peninsula. the white house announced that president trump is having a second summit with kim jong un, quote, near the end of february.

and bloomberg news reports that it is expected to take place in vietnam. it comes as nbc news has received a first look at an exclusive new report from beyond parallel, which details another secret, undisclosed north korean missile base, which could be just one of perhaps 20 more of them. joining us now, one of the authors of beyond parallel, the report, dr. chivictor cha. he's an msnbc news analyst and the author of the report, courtney cube. >> they met about six or seven months ago, came out with a very

broad statement of principles, which the president claimed was the end of the north korean threat and we essentially saw six months where there was no progress made in terms of real denuclearization. there was a big disappointment at the end of the year where nothing happened and then the north korean leader tweeted saying he was open to nor meeting and the president jumped on it. >> it seems when the president goes on to the world stage and meets with these types of leads are, there's always a level of concerns. what are the krns yconcerns you about this meeting, if any? >> the concerns are the ones laid out in the report. this is a complicated negotiation. it's not something you can just wing. we have to go after nuclear weapons, but we also have to go after the delivery systems, which are these 20 missile bases. the concern is that trump will

get so desperate for a deal that he'll take a bad deal where the north koreans will give away things they are not going to do in the future for real c concessions by the united states and they'll preserve all of these capabilities, whether on the nuclear side or in terms of these missile bases that we'll be researching. >> heidi. >> can you ploos explain why this is a good idea for the president to sit down with kim jong un given the history of previous u.s. presidents never agreeing to do this until they have actual concrete commitment from north korea or sfraefrankl other hostile foreign power before they confer on them the legitimacy of a face-to-face meeting with the u.s. president. >> what we really need to see is

a list of nuclear and ballistic missile assets. and what's so important about this report that victor cha and his researchers and colleagues put together is it explains that there are at least 20 sites that north korea has never disclosed. what that means is if they come to the table and sit down with president trump and say these are all of our ballistic missile bases and development programs, these are all of our nuclear site and these 20 locations are not listed there, it shows north korea would not be being transparent, which would not be surprising, but it would show even if they do agree to a large scale denuclearization and rolling back of their program, which would, as victor cha mentioned, would include their ballistic missile sites, if they agree to that, there still would be this vast expense of program. the location that -- the report

that we put out that location, that is one of the oldest sites in their program but it is still active today. there are photos from the end of december showing activity at this location. it just shows how expansive this program really is and how they have not shown any kind of transparency on the world stage about it, heidi. >> that inventory question is one of the biggest concerns of mine. second pompeo went and promised a list of assets and did not return with it. it w they're talking about reopening

new joint economic projects. kim is getting everything he want out of this process and we got nothing. is the president just getting played here? >> it really looks like it. the north koreans are able to either give away things they no longer need or prfor promises te not going to do things in the future to get real returns for us. at theso singapore summit, the president said we'll stop exercises and i don't think anybody knew he was going to do that, he didn't say anything to anybody about that. the timing is good for them because the president is

distracted by the shutdown, by the mueller investigation, by what's happening in syria and he needs a win. maybe he sees this as a pos possibility. >> we know him to use big news things as a way to deflect. thank you both very, very much. coming up, we heard from mike pence on north korea. also on sunday the vice president defended the trump border wall while citing martin luther king jr. we'll talk about that exchange next on "morning joe." on "morn" at&t provides edge-to-edge intelligence, covering virtually every part of your healthcare business.

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according to their public schedules, neither president trump nor mike pence will participate in martin luther king day, a day after vice president pence's speech of martin luther king's "i have a

dream" speech. >> i think president trump wants to achieve his objectives and secure the border, end the shut double plays and bring together the democratic priorities to accomplish that. that's what the american people expect to expect us to do. one of my favorite quotes from dr. king was "now is the time to make real the promises of democracy." you think of how he changed america, he inspired us to change through the legislative process to become a more perfect union. that's exactly what president trump is calling on the congress to do. >> this from an administration that separated children from their families in numbers that

are bigger than we even thought. weep have joe madison. reverend al, let's just talk about those comments. and if i could ask you to respond to those as best can you. what would dr. king make of the state of american politics today? >> well, i think that, first of all, if you listen to the quote, i think the vice president did not really understand what he was quoting. dr. king said make american democracy, live up to american democracy. you don't live up to the promise of democracy by barring those that want to seek asylum here because they're not enjoying democracy where they are. so not only is it a miscarriage of dr. king's quote, he didn't even seem to understand the english and the language dr. king was using.

but dr. king had been quoted with his son sitting with me, talk aboing about the berlin wa. for this president and vice president to not even have a scheduled appearance on king's day but to misquote dr. king when they have 800,000 federal works are not being paid when dr. king was assassinated marching for workers. dr. king was in memphis fighting for workers. workers today are being furloughed and not being paid on dr. king holiday. they had to get gifts in order to keep the martin luther king park open today for martin luther king day and the president and the vice president would misuse a quote and not even celebrate his official federal holiday. so not only have they closed down federal workers' paychecks,

they've in fact ignored a federal holiday that was signed by ronald reagan. >> and honestly using it to really push the concept of the wall and other really i guess ideas that i don't think the entire american people support. 75% of americans don't even think the wall is important at this point but it's manipulating the legacy of dr. king, in my opinion. joining us, civil rights activist joe madison. less than a year after his d.c. speech, dr. king gave a sermon in east berlin where he specifically addressed the berlin wall, which divided the city from 1961 to 1989 saying, quote, here on either side of the wall are god's children and no man-made barrier can obliterate that fact. the naacp called pence's comments an insult.

i would go further and say this administration is taking the legacy and using it to further their political needs. >> and let me add another iconic speech that dr. king gave, an amazing sermon, when he said the most dangerous things on the planet, sincere ignorance and/or conscientious stupidity. unfortunately i think in pence's case both of dock bind. the sad thing is and reverend sharp is absolutely right, dr. king was about freedom. walls are not about freedom. dr. keing was about freedom. making pop eople go to work witt pay is not freedom. we consider it slavery. african-americans make up 18% of the federal workforce. we're disproportionately on this holiday impacted by what the

trump administration has done. i mean, we're 33% of the entire civil service workforce from policemen to military. this was just absolutely ridiculous and i would suggest that before pence says anything about dr. king, he ought to listen to some of his speeches. i would say that donald trump ought to read but we know that that would be wishful thinking. >> he doesn't. he doesn't read. the shutdown has of course closed parks across the country. that includes the martin luther king jr. national historic park in atlanta, which has reopened on this day thanks to a grand from delta. so private corporations stepping up where this government is not. this vice president not only using the legacy to push political needs forward but not

talking the day to taking a look at the legacy of martin luther king jr., not one event? >> even ronald reagan as we both know, he invited the king family to the white house at the time he signed a bill. by the way, it was ronald reagan who ran and said he never would sign it but he did. the reality is what we need to do today is not so much worry about donald trump is going to do and how ridiculous vice president pence said. we should do two things today, one, celebrate the man and, number two, live the message. >> john heilemann. >> reverend, i want to ask you the question, given what we know about donald trump and his

histories of racist behavior, is there anything he could do on this day that would not be looked on by anybody who cares about civil rights as somewhere between ludicrous and hypocritical? >> i think that what he could do is immediately put the government back to work and say he will pay the workers. i think that it would be beyond even the hope of the most hopeful minister or civil rights leader to answer your question that he would do something that would bring about some racial reconciliation. but you have people that voted for hmm -- him that doesn't kn' how that your going to buy groceries or put gas in their

car. dr. king, if he were alive, would not be looking for people to celebrate his birthday but at least do something humane. >> i'm kind of curious. i think it speaks to self-awareness by the white house to not have too many activities concerning dr. king. i wonder if he were alive today, where he would be and what he would be doing? >> let me say first i think he would celebrate the fact that we have people like congressman elijah cummings, who will be chair of a powerful committee, maxine waters, a very powerful committee. he would certainly be fighting, a we all should, voter suppression. the fact that the trump

administration is trying to tear the heart out of what dr. king fought for when it came to the voting rights act. and i think he would also remind us that, you know, that he lived in a time of what we referred to them as jim crow. today it's james crow esquire. nobody is dumb enough to issue a memo to say that you can't rent to black people or people of color. they're a lot more sophisticated than that and i think dr. king would remind us that we have to be sophisticated, we have to recognize what we're facing and that we've got a president of theins who is literally trying to tear the guts out of the civil rights movement. even his department of education is opposed to affirmative action that would help students of color get into college.

they have proposed a disproportionate levels. >> joe madison, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> any time. >> coming up, rudy giuliani says so what if donald trump talked to michael cohen before his testimony to congress. we're going to go inside the special counsel's decision to dispute buzzfeed's explosive story. that is ahead on "morning joe." that is ahead on "morning joe.

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. take a look. you said you were a firm opponent of giving amnesty to

illegal aliens, that english should be the official language of the united states, you called for expediting -- if trump's positions are racist, were they racist when you held some of those positions as well? >> they certainly weren't empathetic and were not kind. i did not think about suffering in other people's lives. >> wow. new york senator kirsten gillibrand not shying away on her previous tough stance on emigration after announcing a 2020 exploratory committee last week. reverend al, the "new york daily news" says the road to the white house does not just pass by your door, it starts there. what are your thoughts about how the field is shaping up early on? >> i think they say that because the last four, five cycles most of the democratic candidates have come before networks to lay out their platforms, in large

part because i have over a hundred chapters and i'm on msnbc so they're using that to get their message out. the challenge, as i see the lineup, is we want to hear the vision, not ju the civst the ci rights vision, but what includes where the president and the vice president is ignoring dr. king. we don't want to just lock arms and sing "we shall overcome," we want them to tell us what they're going to help us

overcome. >> exactly. heidi pryzbyla, a lot of gutsy women stepping into the race, which i love, but having a number, a clear one, that has universal appeal is going to be really important moving forward. >> absolutely. just looking at the senate, you have so many contenders there with kamala harris, kristen gillibrand, elizabeth warren. think viewing elizabeth warren as the more progress of wing of the part and gillibrand having to reconcile her past with her desire to now jump on to some of those same topics like health care for all, universal health care. that's going to be something that she's going to face a lot of questions about. >> heidi pryzbyla, reverend al sharpton, thank you both for

being on this morning. coming up, president trump offers a deal on daca in exchange for border wall funding to end the shutdown, if you call it a deal. for nancy pelosi, it was dead even before arrival. we'll discuss where we go from here as the battle continues to drag down the president's poll numbers. we're back in a moment. you can do this. here we go! [ring] discover. hi. i like your card. i love all the cashback and security features, but i'm not going to pay an annual fee. i'm just not going to do it! okay. okay? discover has no annual fee on any of our cards. so it wasn't my tough guy act? no. we just don't have any annual fees. that's a relief. i've been working on that for a long time. if we had talked a month ago, that would have been a whole different call. i can imagine. excuse me, sir. can i please have no annual fee? no annual fee on any card. only from discover. every day, visionaries are creating the future. so, every day, we put our latest technology

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top of the hour, a live look at the white house. welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, january 21st. still with us we have national affairs analyst john heilemann, political writer nick confessore, associate editor of "commentary" magazine noah rothman and joining the conversation, white house correspondent for pbs "newshour" yamiche alcindor and alicea mond menendez. we're going to start with the president's poll numbers slipping perhaps because of the shutdown. "trump's job approval rating is

down to 31% among independents in gallup. his approval ratings in rasmussen are down from the 48 to 49% range last year to the 43-44 level of the past week or so. the marist data for pbs show as drop of 10% in job approval among republicans and decline of 11% among white americans. this as the pew research center asked americans what they think of the outcome of trump's presidency will be in the long run. 47% say he will be unsuccessful while about three in ten say he will be successful and 23% say it's just too early to tell. some say this ends this badly. the 47% who say trump will have

an unsuccessful presidency is far higher than what others said during the midterms. president trump is more unpopular in georgia than nancy pelosi. john heilemann, i look at the numbers and think about the moment in the white house where president trump thought he could use the media to bully chuck and nancy in realtime and announced "i will own this shut down." i don't think the public has forgot i don't know he usually tries to manipulate people to the opposite side of something he said or he can get people there or at least change the narrative. people look at this shutdown and they think of president trump. >> he made the fundamental mistake there, obviously. it's one of these things that does not look bad on in retrospect. it was one of those moments where in realtime you saw it happen you said, my god, what a

huge strategic blunder this is. does the president does not realize the last thing you want to do is own a shutdown. instead, he didn't just own it, he wrapped his arms around it and gave it a big giant bear hug. i'd say, noah, another element of this is -- the president on the basis of everything we know clearly respects nancy pelosi and understands that he's a worthy adversary, talks about her that way to people in the white house. he also, though, seems to be under the impression has many raspberry have been that you can get unending political mileage out of beating up nancy pelosi. take the back and forth last week when trump denied her the plane for the congressional visit to afghanistan. sealed like he was thinking i can bludgeon nancy pelosi, my base hates her. but then you look at these

numbers in georgia and up see something that given trump's poll unless must be befuddling that in georgia his numbers are south of hers. >> i really think the general public is prepared to swallow a lot of what donald trump does that is distasteful as long as he's demonstrating some competence in government. contrairy to popular opinion, nobody likes to see bread lines in washington, d.c. of federal workers who now have to supplement their nutritional a intake through charity. that is something people despise. if this president is behind that and responsible for it and he's incompetent in government, then that's a bridge too far for most

people. >> is there anything you could do once you announced at the outset of a battle, once you've noticed what the end game is, i'm going to on the worst case scenario here, i'm proudly going to own it, is there anything can you do to make your opponent eventually own it? >> no. >> he is on video in the oval office saying this is my shutdown, i will own it, i will not blame you for it. all you have to do is keep balleting that video over and over and over again. i think the president thought this will be seen as an act of toughness. he thought it would be an act of strength. instead it was a bad move. he didn't real use in recent political history the party that loses on the shut down fights is party perceived to trying to insert some policy -- they have

lost most of the shut down fights. >> if the shut down isn't resolved, we're looking at government workers missing another paycheck. this a political embearsment with real consequences for families across the country and for our overall economy. people can see that. yet president trump continues to belittle the very people, including speaker pelosi, whom they will need to compromise in the end to try to bring this governing nightmare to an end. his weekend offer to democrats involves protection for immigrants for just three years, protections that he himself took away by changing obama administration policy. president trump is losing this fight, but as usual, he's acting like a man who has the bottom line remains the same until the president understands he has to

lead and honor the priorities of the democrats. this stalemate is going to continue with no end in sight. yamic yamiche, i don't know how we get to friday with another paycheck that has a gleer when he came before the cameras on saturday and tried this to given put this on the democrats when he put something on the table that really wasn't an offer. >> his offer was dead before arrival. there were democrats and immigration activists tweeting me and texting me before the president even made his speech because word leaked out he was going to be offering tps and daca for the wall. there's certainly that's really clear here, the tps.

the president said they were from s-hole countries. he said haitians were bringing aids to the country. people don't believe president trump can be credible when it comes to immigration issues. >> in "the wall street journal," former defense secretary robert gates writes, "put aside the polls on who is getting more blame for the shutdown, all those involved share responsibility for the fiasco the for too long hype are part i has prevented america government with theily grags problem. instead of thinking small, trading money for a wall in exchange of taking care of the dreamers, couldn't congress and the president think big? the legislation of george w. bush provided a comprehensive

plan to harden security along the border and provide legal status for the 11 million or so aliens already living in america illegally. the u.s. cannot seasoned them all home but need no necessarily give them a path to citizenship butch the government could will theize them and ensure and make sure this in exchange for a long-term immigration solution. perhaps the way out of today's impasse is to enlarge the probl problem, not shrink it and proceed strategically instead of doesn'ting another short-term fix. >> it occur there was great reporting inside the white house about what this deal was going to look like. you have jared kushner arguing

protection should extend and that got narrowed to a smaller number. as long as steven miller has the ears of the president, can that type of compromise and big thinking really be done? because if you wanted to have this conversation it wouldn't even be about a wall in exchange for a longer earned pathway to citizenship. it would be this larger, more difficult conversation to have about who we believe should be in the united states, what we believe this country great and the reline of our economy on immigrant and investment in the central american countries. not only the poll factors that are bringing in but also the push factors. if you're looking at the debate that's happening right now in washington, it bears no

resemblance to those big ideas. >> and all of this is going on while there are so many questions around this presidency. rudy giuliani added confusion to the question of whether the president spoke to michael cohen before cohen's testimony to congress. speaking with the "new york times" about the president's written answer to special counsel bob mueller, julianny said, quote, there was no question he was asked by the special counsel. he said, quote, there were questions like "did you talk about the who moscow problem. did president trump or anyone on the trump team talk to him about his congressional snm. >> as far as i know, president trump did not have discussions with hmm.

certain -- him and certainly did not tell him to lie. >> you just acknowledged it possible that president trump talked to michael cohen about his testimony. >> which would be perfectly normal, which the president believed is true. >> so it possible that president trump talked to michael cohen. >> i don't know if it happened or it didn't happen and it might be attorney/client privilege, if it happened, where i can't acknowledge it. >> the media, including this program, struggled on friday on how to handle the buzzfeed story on the allegation in a president trump encouraged michael cohen to lie about the trump moscow project in testimony to congress. it's a thorny issue. what should a news organization do the story. saying it could lead to presidential impeachment, too many being conferring the story

off the table. bob mueller's in is really complicated for us but there is one clear lesson here. as the mueller investigation heads towards some really big moments in the days ahead, the media, that's us, need to tread so carefully and react and respond at a speed a lot slower than twitter or the next live shot the bottom line is you need to find another story to cover. with this presidency, there are so many facts we have in front of us, we don't knee to get ahead of ourselves. joining us from "the washington post," his reporting describes why bob mueller decided to go on the record to push back on

buzzfeed. quote, the special counsel spokesman told others in the government he would have more vigorously discouraged the reporter from proceeding with the story. matt, take us through the play by play of the buzzfeed story and the mueller pushback, which seemed remarkable. >> on the day that buzzfeed was planning to report this story, this sent an e-mail to the spokesman for the special counsel's office, who has become kind of famous for responding no comment, the mueller team doesn't leak, they don't give you background. they dash off a message saying

we're going to say the -- he doesn't tell him that michael cohen told the special counsel eaves office that trump directed him to lie. the e-mail doesn't address the other aspect of the buzzfeed story, which is the special counsel's office has gathered evidence to support this. he respond with a no comment and sends a transcript of michael cohen's plea hearing, where it does not say trum and then buzzfeed feels they're off to the races. this blsh bob mueller couldn't ignore it. this is causing calls for

investigation, the central pieces are wholly wrong. >> go ahead. go ahead, john. >> sorry, mika. it's john heilemann here. i wanted to be sure about a couple things in your reporting which is illuminating of all the questions related here. this is something people talked about a lot when the special counsel first issued this extraordinary rebuke to buzzfeed. do you have any doubt in your mind on the basis of your reporting that this -- that their statement, the special counsel's office statement represents a thorough going reputation of the buzz field store? that leaves out the possibility that part of the story is true and port of the story is false but on the key issue of the story, the special counsel is

saying wrong. >> on the key issue, unequivocally the special counsel's office is saying we proo they can't speak to what michael cohen my mighting saying. they it but those two central feces and did they have this o the special counsel is intending to firmly dispute in in a statement. >> so now that peter carr has done this this evening that he hadn't done before, he's now out there shooting down a story, you've got the $ tore of buzz to

elaborate and explain with more clarity exactly what was wrong with the story. so i'm curious as to why -- i understand why the special counsel's office has had the position it's had previously, but now that peter carr is out there, why wouldn't he go further and rise to ben smith's request for greater clarity in terms of what the orsigh they feel like this is unequivocal. -the-talk about statements made to the special counsel's office, evidence given to the special counsel's office. they feel it is unequivocal. look, they didn't did they don't want to get into a game where reporters can publish what they see as bad information and they have to doo that aren't the drbt

p pos. they don't want to got done this road of interesting to addressed have and i get ben smith's point and the reporter who roo pond the serious. they strong we will see the fact a pan. >> in the wake of this story, we saw a pig fly in washington, we saw the president praise the special counsel and i'm kind of curious that you think that something does that change the direction of poll tex at all in the future? >> i don't think it going to change the policyin his case he

feels as though the special counsel is taking his side. the counsel is something having do from about something and the special counsel doesn't push back and the special counsel maybe even indict another one of president trump's close allies, maybe roger stone or someone, the president willgo back on his high horse, it's a hitch hunt, the responsible hire he feels a. >> yeah, noah, i just want your thoughts. this i thought was a huge reset moment for the media on a number of levels, whether or not buzzfeed's facts are completely true and it bears out to be true or not, we will find out, but it

was a short-term gift for the president, the mueller statement. >> absolutely. i'm surprised they're not taking it for what it's worth and leaning into it very heavily. but i think, mika, what you had said earlier about twitter is particularly worth leaning into. it has become a tool that we all have to use in this business but it is absolutely pernicious and dangerous to the national dialogue. and leading in a -- curiosity and voracity, it punch ishs you for being president clinton and we're going to have to reckon with this and say is this thing actually worth it? >> and you brought up a good point, the president is not

hanging his hat on this and just pounding pa maybe they don't want to bring too much attention to the questions that have been raised. we'll see zlg and still ahead on "morning joe," many americans live paycheck to paycheck, sorry how can they possibly get by when tho anthony brown, whose district is packed with if you recall owed federal workers. we'll get his message to the voters bearing the brunt of the government shutdown. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪ ♪

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the new life worship center in capital heights is opening its doors to furloughed worker. >> we're close to 40,000 pounds of food now that we're geoffing away for free until every last dollar is gone. >> i'm with the department of commerce, four weeks with no check. >> many of these people have worked for decades and don't know what it's like to go for a check. >> i think i cry every day. >> and this mom who works for the irs. >> i have two sons. then know mommy is going to stabbed in line tod stand in line today for food. >> those are just a few of the

government workers in maryland. congressman, what are you hearing about the impact on the shutdown of the government? >> the impact is beginning to be devastating on these families. we have federal government employees who are being required to work without pay. many of them are deciding they can dmo lono longer do that. they're having difficulty paying for day care for their children having to go to work, they can't fill up their gas tank or pay the note on their car, mortgage or rent. many federal government employees, not unlook most americans, live paycheck to paycheck and if we don't open government tomorrow and the president can do that, if they don't, they'll see a zero

paycheck this friday. >> they may not. what is possible to end this shut down? >> first of all, the ball is not on in the president's court, it's in his hands. he has to open up government immediately. when he does, we will be able to sit down and engage in fruitful, productive and probably lengthy discussions around immigration reform, including border security. his position is anchored, continues to be anchored in a$57 billion wall. that's not our position and that's not the position of the american people. the american people reject a wall. we'll negotiate around border security, daca, the dreamers, tps, whether we have to increase the number of immigration judges, which we do.

reminding the president that it's notes can the, airports in for the worth, dallas. that's the border of america. >> so we'll have negotiations. >> i understand that and i understand the position on the wall and the position of most of the american people on it, but is there any way to get him the money for the wall and get something in return that that could then also end the shutdown? >> the democrats agreed last year $1.3 billion for border security. at the end of the day what we're trying to achieve is border security. if that can be accomplished with the use of technology and surveillance and more custom and border agents with some physical barriers, enhanced physical barriers, let's do that. let's literally take off the math and from coast to coast,

but that's not to be a lengthy process and president trump must open up government. >> yamiche. >> congressman brown, i have a question about the white house's strategy here. i was in a meeting with vice president pence where he said white house officials have been talking to rank and file democrats to see if they essentially can pick off some of the support from nancy pelosi and-check assumer. do you ge a-- i think the president mischaracterized the involvement of democrats at this point. he had some rank-and-file democratss have it the white house. two days ago they democrats put it reject the wall, particularly in the context of a federal

government shutdown. i anticipate democrats should and will negotiate with republicans. it will be difficult discussions. the president wants a wall, that's not our starting position. we can agree on daca and the dreamers and tps but again, you've got to open up government. with government closed it's like negotiating with a gun at your head. >> john heilemann. >> let me ask you this question. let's stipulate the following things are all true, first, that the way in which this, quote, negotiation was conducted was not really a negotiation. ets also stipulate to the idea that the confessions that you that if the sequencing was right and the president was willing to open the government up for a limited period of time and then engage in this would it at la

and permanent relief on tps but i got to have my 5 billion for my slats, which is not really a wall anyway and to start to have that kind of a conversation? >> certainly if the president is talking about a permanent solution on the daca situation, which he created and temporary protective state us, which he has created. up. what the contours are of butt are security, the american people are firm bip o'pose to a wall. physical barriers in a currently exist, there are pedestrian bare yearsiers along parts of the border is one thing but a solid wall, whether it concrete or the president now is talking about

metal slats, that's problematic. but the most important thing is open up government, we then begin to have serious negotiations and dialogue as we resolve this situation. >> so, congressman, we looked at the impact so far, and we've talked about what you think the. this friday these furloughed workers get another pay economic with a zero on it. what happens? >> familiar will with a great deal uncertainty, financial strs. this is go when men and women who put on the uniform and are on watch for our country, and that's money and women today serving in the coast guard, are doing so without getting paid. the sad eye ronny is the president has shut down

government when the largest impacted due to this sun doubt ands our customs procedure, it's the u.s. coast guard. this so shut down negatively impac impacts. all he has to do is tell mick mcconnell being vote us on what the house sent you. >> thank you very much. we have some breaking news. we have a newintory in the presidential race. woorp expecting this. senator kamala harris has nunsed she is and we've got a number of really impressive women who are looking at 2020 and looking at running for president. she announces this of course

onand, john heilemann, not completely unexpected but how does she impact the group we have some far? >> well, look, it's very early and there are going to be a lot of crap have and. we've had her on the show. she's obviously extreme had nm, as a prosecutor she's aid made a real mark in. spmt and about whether she has accomplished enough, whether it prov provedif you think about the which who that three of the --

of the most -- the earliest entrants and three of the candidates who are going to raise a lot of attention whether in a will lead to victory, we don't know. it interesting that are we saw during the midterms that a lot of women did that, they decided to step up and run and a lot of them won. we have kirsten gillibrand, elizabeth warren, gillibrand.

and it very early. so soreee sht park, in addition you have one latino, who is running with and that changes the contours to the ra i don't ever can and we saw people run and the fact there multiple canned it opens ps f ands that really the bigger question for democrats here, right? who is it? what is the message they want to go to for the american people. and house of representatives does having all of those candidates in the ras going into the johnson election.

>> waush each, certainly ter thoughts and how the midid sort of almost like we've got i don't know some confidence we didn't have before that this could pork. >> i'll say this, i sat down with senator harris about maybe two months ago now and in that interview she told me that she was very much passionate about civil rights and changing the criminal justice system. it's not lost on me she's announcing this on martin luther king day, choosing to really honor of symbolism of martin luther king. in in terms of women democrats were pushing forward in terms of taking cole of the house. i think cam la harris is feeling very excited about that and that i've had talked who she's

someone who we'll just see if it gets to be kof but she's going we're going to watch very close le because she's been someone we're watching so closely. >> john heilemann, i feel like this prem, it is the women's more that, and over the course of go years every time he tried to insult or bully a could he doesn't even ma and as shoo sits there and sort and recognizes her power and i think he's recognizing it, too, and not able to get his hand p arms around it. i do think it would be just decertificates if who replaced

him in 2020 when he is running for reelection, that is if he does. >> we'll see, obviously. but i will say a couple things. the credit -- trump certainly galvanized a lot of women around the country. >> yes. >> a lot of credit goes to people like hillary clinton who ran a great nomination race in 2008 and eventually got the democratic nomination and became the first woman nominee in the party and won the popular vote in 2016. it demonstrated you could win enough votes do become president of the united states. so she paved the way in and then we saw the mid-term elections more wimp have entered that never did before and a lot of

color in this class. a lot work and -- ideology than it is about identity. i don't wab there's no question that power if and i'd say on is going to srn kind of program. doesn't mean a while man can't be a democratic nominee but there's going to be a bunch of dynamics related to identity that may favor harris and some of the other women in 2020. >> alicea money endes, thank you very much for being on this morning.

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i think it's the toughest thing i have to do, when i'm going to meet relatives of some of our great, great heros that have fallen, i think it might be the toughest thing i have to do as president. when i took over, syria was loaded with isis. i've always said who are we killing isis for? you know the worst enemy of russia, ran, seiran, syria, is . so we're killing isis for people that aren't necessarily in agreement with us, let's put it

this way. we've done assad a very big favor. you have do have to ask yourself, we're killing isis for russia, for iran, for syria, for iraq, for a lot of other places. >> joining us now former commander of u.s. and international forces in afghanistan, retired four star general stanley mcchrystal. and professor of strategy of georgetown university's school are former service and former u.s. army paratrooper sean mcfate, "the new rules of war," which lays out guidelines for success in the future of warfare. first general mcchrystal, a few questions for you on syria right now with such a muddled question

on isis. has isis been defeated? >> no, i don't think so. and i think the tragic attack which took four comrades from us was a signal from isis that an s not. and that's their way of saying that they are not just a caliphate that controlled terrain, but they've actually by estimates have 20,000 to 30,000 fighters. so in reality they are an idea propelled by a number of people who possess and follow that idea and they are still around. >> so what's the impact of the president's message on the fact that he feels isis has been defeated and the draw back in syria, and if the message is muddled, if i'm correct in saying that, is it contributing to us losing ground on isis? >> well, i think the first thing we need to do, and you will cover it when you talk to sean and his great book, is we need a grand strategy.

we need to understand what we are trying to do in the middle east and more broadly in the world. what are our values, what's driving our objectives and what we're prepared to do for that. the decision to withdraw forces from syria or from any other place in the country is not by definition a bad one. if it's couched inside a coherent larger strategy. i think, however, how we execute our strategy, how we formulate it, but how we execute and coordinate it with our allies, sometimes with our -- watched by our opponents, determines whether it's really effective. in the case of the withdrawal from syria i think what we've done is created uncertainty in our allies, we certainly have likely emboldened some of our opponents, and so it's probably going to make the execution of it and the costs of it a bit worse than we'd like it to be. >> john heilemann. >> professor mcfate, congratulations on the book, first of all. most importantly congratulations on a blurb which refers to you as the new suchlt unsu.

i'm looking forward to reading the book. >> thank you. >> i want to ask you just to start here with victory in the age -- in the age of durable disorder, which seems like an important phrase. >> yes. >> what is the age of durable disorder? what does it mean and what are its implications? >> well, we live in a world of persistent conflict where forever wars have become the status quo and we've come to accept that as normal and we have a foreign policy that's trying to recreate a liberal world order that existed 50 years ago. the point is that that doesn't exist anymore. humpty dumpty is down and trying to rebuild it is not the way forward. the world has changed. warfare has changed and we have to change with it. >> sean, i don't suppose you're saying we're moving beyond great power conflict as a dynamic that typifies most international relations in the system. you're talking about sort of the new forms in which that kind of conflict will take place. >> that's right.

so we have a situation, we have leaders who are not forced to reckon with strategy and adaptability. we have enemies like china and russia who do, they grasp the new rules of war. we are playing by war's old rules. we think that if there is going to be a war with china or if there is going to be a war with russia, it will be fought like conventional war. it won't. there's ten new rules of war, the first of which is conventional war is dead. there's nothing more unconventional today than a conventional war. >> so, sean, our country has been at war since 2001. >> right. >> it's a very long time. >> yes. >> there are a lot of americans who wonder why, and there is often, i find when i talk to ordinary people, some mist fiction as to what our policy is for and where is it going. are we looking at essentially an era of unending conflict and military deployment and have our leadership found ways to build support or find support for that

policy? >> well, i hope not. i hope that we are not in an era of never ending warfare. that's why i wrote this book. you know, why have we -- why do we not win? and we can. and that's what this book is about. we have the best military in the world, we have the best troops, the best technology, the most money. what we lack is we need strategic leadership to articulate what victory looks like because if you cannot articulate what victory looks like, how can you create a strategy to achieve it? >> and general mcchrystal, i want to ask you, then, how you can apply the teachings of this book to, for example, afghanistan. can we win in afghanistan? >> sure. and just for everyone's knowledge, sean and i were parra troopers together in the 82nd some years ago before he became a distinguished professor and i ended up where i am. >> wow. >> sean is exactly right, what

we really are, we are in an age of complexity when we're trying to deal with these extraordinarily difficult problems and we are trying to do it with traditional methods, traditional tools at hand because it's what we built, it's how we trained our people and it's how we as a people sometimes think. we want to start a war, advance across europe, take berlin and then declare victory. in this age that's not going to happen, nor are we going to have an age in which you have a failure of politics and then you transition to war, go i have it over to generals and they fight the war and then they give it back to politicians. in reality in the age of durable disorder you are going to have something that looks and feels more like politics, more like economics, more like all the elements of power mixed in with some military power. and this is what sean so correctly says, russia and china are already doing, because they've had to. and we have not had to and yet now we are in a position where i think we've got to change our

mindset. >> but, still, can we win in afghanistan? i'm curious what that looks like and, quite frankly, what winning in syria looks like as well. but just to answer the question what does it look like in afghanistan and can we? >> didn't you hear me dodging your question, mika? >> yeah, i did. i went right after you. >> yeah. to a degree i think that we can, but what does it look like? it looks like something where afghanistan, the people of afghanistan, which i think includes the taliban, they come to this decision that, guess what, there's not going to be a clear military victory and so we're going to create some kind of accommodation and move forward. i don't think there's anything that looks as satisfying as a conventional war outcome there. >> right. all right. general stanley mcchrystal and sean mcfate thaw both. the book is "the new rules of war: victory in the age of

durable disorder." it's out tomorrow. still ahead, more than a month into the shutdown and no signs of a deal after democrats reject the president's new offer before it was even announced. and we continue to follow breaking news as senator kamala harris officially throws her hat into the 2020 presidential ring. "morning joe" is coming right back. coming right back mom and dad got a new car. it's not theirs, it's mine. the rx350l with three rows for up to seven passengers.

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one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. i have a dream today. >> that was dr. martin luther king jr. speaking at the march on washington august 28th, 1963. this morning we remember his life and legacy. also ahead, some major developments from over the weekend. democrats balk at president trump's plan to end the shutdown. they say he will have to do a lot better than simply restoring programs that he cut. plus rudy giuliani says trump might have talked to michael cohen about his testimony to congress and probably talked about building a trump tower in moscow, all the way up to the presidential election. some big implications there. and another summit with north korea's dictator is taking shape. we're going to ask a top expert on the regime why. welcome to "morning joe," it is

monday, january 21st. with us we have national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc and co-host and executive producer of show time's the circus john heilemann, political reporter for "the new york times" and msnbc political analyst nick confessore, associate editor of commentary magazine and an msnbc contributor noah rothman. host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network reverend al sharpton is with us, and nbc news national political reporter heidi przybyla. joe is still under the weather, hopefully he will be back tomorrow. we begin with senate majority leader mitch mcconnell who will hold a vote this week on president trump's proposal to fund the way. apparently that's the only way to end the shutdown even though democrats are united in opposition. on saturday the president offered a temporary three-year protection for young undocumented migrants under daca, as well as immigrants from

countries on the temporary protected status list. it is trump's first public offer to democrats since the shutdown began on december 22nd. now at 31 days and counting. house speaker nancy pelosi called the proposal a nonstarter and said that his offers of protection do not represent a good faith effort to restore certainty to people's lives. trump's proposal came a day after reporting that the supreme court is unlikely to hear the administration's appeal to a lower court ruling that blocked him from shutting daca down. meaning the program will stay in place for at least ten more months. on sunday trump tweeted multiple times about pelosi, accusing her of behaving i wish rationally, calling her a radical democrat, and telling her to clean up the streets in san francisco, which trump called disgusting. last night on msnbc assistant

democratic leader james clyburn said the white house proposal did not go far enough. >> if a high school daca person were to accept this deal, in three years what would happen if that person is away in school, trying to get a college degree or some other post secondary educational pursuit, and then look up, three days expired -- three years expired and they are back in the shape that they were in before. >> what if the president made those daca protections permanent, would that change this equation? >> yes, it would. tps as well. >> speaker pelosi says democrats will vote again this week to reopen the government, something vice president pence said they will reject. >> you could open the government tomorrow. the house has passed bills to open the government tomorrow, why don't you sign them and open the government and then you can negotiate about this? >> well, because, i mean -- you

know, frankly, chris, what the american people want us to do is to work on their priorities and the american people want us to secure the border. >> oh, my gosh. john heilemann, first of all, this shutdown is -- has massive implications on the economy and on people's lives. day 31. are we just bottom line it, are we any closer to opening it up? >> i don't think we're in any way appreciably closer to opening the government up, mika, because i do think that the way this played out over the weekend suggested, first of all, the president is not really in the mood to negotiate, what the president put on the table on saturday was not the product of any kind of negotiation, it was a white house offer, and one that democrats rejected so rapidly and so unequivocally that it suggests both that they believe that they have -- that they are in the right on the substance but also that they think the politics are working in their -- in their favor. so it doesn't seem to me like this moved the ball forward. you could have imagined this

proposal as part of a genuine negotiation being a starting point, but not as a kind of a unilateral offer thrown at democrats not part of a conversation. again, this is nowhere close to where the ending point would have to be, but you can imagine sitting around a table with democrats and republicans and the white house and maybe having this as the starting point for the beginning of a negotiation over the course of several days, but i think, as i say, democrats were -- i was a little surprised by just how forcefully and quickly they rejected it pretty much out of hand. >> yeah, nick confessore, what's most likely the next move? moving forward who plays? who goes next? >> right now the president has offered to solve two problems he created and in return he's asking for something that a majority of the country is against. it's not a great deal for democrats. i think the actual reason why the democrats have been so firm is not to embarrass the president, but the fact is if they let him win now and use the

shutdown to extract policy concessions, he can't get a different way, he will do it over and over again. if you let an unpopular president pull through an unpopular policy with the government as hostage, it will be his only policy path for most of his agenda and that would be a dark two years for the party and for everybody else. >> president trump is facing blow back from a number of his supporters and immigration hardliners over his offer to end the government shutdown. commentator ann coulter who has continued to demand that trump keep his signature campaign promise, tweeted on saturday, there are a million things to trade for a wall. a higher federal minimum wage, an infrastructure bill, a solar panel bill, trade a wall for amnesty and there's no purpose to having a wall. the president apparently heard the criticism tweeting yesterday no amnesty is not a part of my offer. its a three-year extension of

daca. amnesty will be used only on a much bigger deal. whether on immigration or something else. likewise, there will be no big push to remove the 11 million plus people who are here illegally, but be careful, nancy. referring to house speaker nancy pelosi. noah rothman, so who is advising the president? is it ann coulter on twitter? is that where we are? >> i don't think so. just by virtue of this offer -- >> pushing back a little here. >> it's rebuffed his right flank. i actually think the president's move here is rather savvy, if only because it has exposed the farce of this whole thing, his supporters are now acknowledging that the wall really isn't on the table. i mean, if we're getting this deal and we're only getting steel slats along a portion of the border for $5 billion which is well south of what they were initially asking for in the early stages of this administration, then it's not a deal at all. likewise, democrats have been forced to say, well, we would entertain something like a wall

for a permanent daca fix. so no longer is this an immortality that we can even countenance, it is part of a broader negotiation. the fact this this is all happening in public means we are still at the posturing stage, but that to me is some movement. >> yeah, and heidi przybyla, what are you looking at today in terms of how democrats will be moving forward with this and at this point where does the state of the union stand? >> mika, i reached out to some moderate democrats in the senate because clearly this was an attempt to move this issue over to the senate. my reporting is that mitch mcconnell picked up the phone and called the president and said, look, nancy pelosi is not going to budge on this, you into he had to shake things up, that's why the proposal came to kind of move this to the senate, pressure some of those moderate democrats. well, it was in short order that we heard from some of those moderates like mark westerner who, by the way, was one of the number one targets. they told me because he represents a state with a lot of

federal workers, virginia. the delegation of maryland as well. well, they are all standing firm, mika, because, like nick said, this really is not even about the details at this point of the negotiation, it is about the principle of having the negotiation at a time when in the democrats' words you're holding 800,000 federal workers hostage, that democrats refuse to have this negotiation while the government is shut down because this will happen again and again and we're already seeing evidence of that in that groups, including pro life groups, are already saying why are we having a shut down over the wall? we should have a shut down over planned parenthood funding. so that's why i think they're going to have to find some kind of a vehicle to meet halfway on this. this cannot be a full negotiation, mika, to have this kind of a grand bargain while the government is shut down and federal workers are suffering. in the past the vehicle has always been -- because we've had

these time and again over other issues, like obamacare, and the vehicle has always been some kind of a temporary spending bill to try and use that time to work out a negotiation. at this point we're not even there yet and the specifics are very far apart as we've reviewed before in terms of the daca deal and the democrats resistance to the wall. so when is that halfway measure going to materialize? i don't see it yet. >> reverend al, talk to me, characterize, if you can, what you think of the president's daca offer. >> i think the daca offer is not really an offer at all. clearly when the president says, i'm going to give three years here, when you look at the fact that in three years he will -- if he survives the mueller investigation -- be running for reelection and in reelection he can cancel that. i think that congressman clyburn is right, theres no real

permanence or stability there. but the thing that i think that is most outrageous and that hits home to me on martin luther king day is we're acting like 800,000 people are not sitting there wondering how they're going to buy gas and groceries while we're playing this posturing game. this is not about trump versus nancy pelosi, this is about 800,000 people that work for the federal government, some of them that secure us at airports, that now don't know where their next paycheck is coming from. and to be so heartless that we're playing this political chess game using workers as pawns is something that i think does not speak well of this president. when he makes an offer that he knows is only putting back some of the things that he took away, that is not a negotiation, that's a negation. he did not even bring up those 800,000 workers in his statement the other night, mika, to talk

to this nation and ignore the federal workers who are in the getting paid, not even giving them a sense of empathy or sensitivity was an insult to the american people. >> well, he tweeted about them later, reverend al, maybe somebody nudged him and said you forego the to pretend you have empathy, calling them patriots. great patriots. >> too little, too late. >> yeah. still ahead on "morning joe," first we thought the talks ended in january, then we were told it was around june, now we know the president was eyeing a trump tower in moscow all the way up to the 2016 election. we'll tick through the timeline next on "morning joe." (clapping) every day, visionaries are creating the future. ( ♪ ) so, every day, we put our latest technology and vast expertise to work. ( ♪ ) the united states postal service

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ended in january of 2016, then it was thought to be june of 2016, now the president's attorney, rudy giuliani, says there was, quote, an active proposal with the russians until at least october or november of 2016. in an interview with the "new york times" giuliani quoted the president as saying that trump tower moscow discussions were, quote, going on from the day i announced to the day i won. here is giuliani on "meet the press." >> well, it's our understanding that they went on throughout 2016, there weren't a lot of them, but there were conversations. i can't be sure of the exact dates, but the president can remember having conversations with them about it. >> throughout 2016? >> yeah, probably up to -- could be up to as far as october, november. our answers cover until the election, so anytime during that period they could have talked about it. >> so far as the president was concerned an active project to at least october or november of

2016, an active potential deal? >> yeah, i would say an active proposal. >> all right. as the "times" points out the new timeline means the active proposal for the trump tower moscow project was still out there when trump sought a deal to end sanctions on russia, when he pushed the putin talking point questioning the legitimacy of nato, and during his infamous russia, if you're listening, remarks about hillary clinton's e-mails. john heilemann, i guess, first of all, rudy giuliani at this point it seems like any interview you do with him the answers could be backtracked on in realtime. it doesn't seem like he cares about actually talking about the truth. is it smart of trump at this point to keep putting giuliani out there? >> well, i don't think it's that he doesn't care about telling the truth, mika, i think he's

actually actively committed to not telling the truth. the whole point of the giuliani strategy has been to be a giant smoke/fog machine and he spends a lot of time just belching out things that are designed to confuse and distract. >> literally. >> that's what his role has been. you could argue about how effective that's been as a pr political strategy. certainly there's not a single lawyer that i know who is either in the defense world at the high levels who would say that giuliani is smart, given that for the president's point of view mueller -- the mueller team -- the mueller -- mueller's office -- the mueller offices extraordinary unusual statement about the buzzfeed story on friday was kind of like the big victory on him and he could have camped out on that all weekend long and just talked about that and not introduced in i go new to the discussion, but instead he then threw out these things that are potentially damaging to donald trump and i will ask you,

nick, i mean, it's obviously the case that there is a -- from every possible angle the trump tower moscow deal is -- stinks to high heaven and the extension of the timeline and the claim that, well, you know, as long as he wasn't talking about it once he was president elect, it's okay. there's a lot of things you could say about it, but one of the most fundamental things you could say was wrong about it was it was all taking place in secret. there was not an american voter who had any idea that these conversations were taking place, whether they stopped in -- we now believe they -- they went through at least until november, right, or december conceivably. but even if they were through june, july, august, september, that was material information that any american voter would have wanted to know about in light of donald trump's foreign policy positions and yet they were concealed throughout the election year, yet another case it seems to me of really considerable kind of election fraud perpetrated on the american voters. >> just pull back for a second

here. forget collusion and russian interference. >> right. >> a major candidate for president who became the nominee spent the entire election in negotiations with a foreign power who is our adversary trying to extract concessions and get a deal that would make that candidate a huge amount of money, a huge score. >> and told no one. >> and told nobody, and was saying things on the campaign trail that were unusual for a candidate for president, and were things that putin would want to hear. attacks on nato, for example. that by itself in any other era would be a massive, massive scandal. it's amazing. >> coming up on "morning joe," north korea hasn't tested a nuclear weapon recently, but it could if it wanted to. the regime still possesses its full arsenal, so how exactly will another summit with president trump change that? we'll talk about it next on "morning joe." oe."

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future. kim jong-un is looking very forward to it and so am i. we've made a lot of progress. we have made a lot of progress as far as denuclearization is concerned. >> this week the president said we have made, quote, tremendous progress with north korea. on the other hand on wednesday you said we are still waiting for them to make, your words, concrete steps. so which is it? because they don't seem to go together. >> well, they go perfectly well together. what the president refers to, note because of his strong stand, because of his engagement with kim jong-un directly at that first summit in singapore, noest itting of nuclear weapons, no firing of weapons. >> but they are not denuclearizing. >> there will be a second summit and at that summit we will be laying out our expectation for north korea to take concrete steps to begin to make real the denuclearization that kim jong-un committed to. the president is very

optimistic. >> vice president mike pence yesterday attempted to clarify the contrasting statements coming from the administration regarding denuclearization on the korean peninsula. news that kind of flew under the radar on friday, the white house announced that president trump is having a second summit with kim jong-un, quote, near the end of february and bloomberg news reports that it is expected to take place in vietnam. it comes as nbc news has received a first look at an exclusive new report from beyond parallel, which details another secret undisclosed north korean ballistic missile base which could be just one of perhaps 20 more of them. joining us now one of the authors of beyond parallel, the report, senior advisor and korea chair at csis dr. victor khau. he is an msnbc korean affairs analyst and an author of the nbc news story on the beyond parallel report.

nbc news national security and military reporter, courtney cuby. dr. chau what has changed since the last time president trump and kim jong-un met? >> they met about six months ago, six to seven months ago, they came out with a broad at the same time of principles which the president claimed was the end of the north korean threat, and then we essentially saw six months where there was absolutely no progress made in terms of real denuclearization. there was a big disappointment at the end of the year because nothing happened and then the north korean leader gave a new year's speech in which he said he was open to a second meeting and president trump tweeted about it and jumped on the opportunity right away. i guess he's hopeful that they can make more progress this time than they made last time. >> it seems when the president goes on to the world stage and meets with these types of leaders there's always a level of concern and we're left with more questions than answers.

what are the concerns you have about this meeting, if any? >> so the concerns are like the ones we laid out in the report. this is a complicated negotiation. it's not something that you can just wing. we have to go after the nuclear weapons, but we also have to go after the delivery systems which are these 20 missile bases. the concern is that trump will get so desperate for a deal that he will take a bad deal where the north koreans promise to give away things that they are not going to do in the future for real concessions by the united states, troops or sanctions or stopping exercises. meanwhile, north korea will preserve all of these extant capabilities, whether it's on the nuclear side or it's in terms of these missile delivery bases that we've been research. >> heidi? >> hi, court, it's heidi. can you please explain to us why this is a good idea for the president to agree to sit down, again, with kim jong-un, given the history of previous u.s. presidents never agreeing to do this until they have actual

concrete commitment from north korea, or frankly, any other hostile foreign power before they confer upon them the legitimacy of a face-to-face meeting with the u.s. president? >> so, heidi, what we really need to see out of this next summit is a list of north korea's military, nuclear and ballistic missile assets. this he need to provide some kind of a transparent list. what's so important about this report that victor cha and his researchers and colleagues at csis put together is it explains that there are at least 20 sites that north korea has never disclosed. what that means is that if they come to the table, if they come to -- you know, in february and sit down with president trump and say, well, these are all of our ballistic missile bases and development programs, these are all of our nuclear sites, and these 20 locations are not listed there, it shows that north korea is not being transparent, which would not be surprising given their past behavior in these kinds of

negotiations, and it would show that even if they do agree to some kind of a large scale denuclearization and rolling back of their program, which would, as victor cha mentioned, would include their ballistic missile sites, their delivery mechanisms, if they agree to that there still would be this vast expanse of program. >> nbc news' courtney kube, dr. victor cha, thank you both very much. coming up on "morning joe," governor jay inslee joins the conversation, he represents washington state, but is heading to new hampshire this week. we will talk about what brings him to that early primary state next on "morning joe." liberty mutual customizes your car insurance

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justice. decency. equality. freedom. democracy. these aren't just words, they are the values we as americans cherish and they are all on the line now. the future of our country

depends on you and millions of others, lifting our voices to fight for our american values. that's why i'm running for president of the united states. i'm running to lift those voices, to bring our voices together, so please join me in oakland on sunday, january 27th, and go to kamala harris.org to join our campaign. let's do this together. let's claim our future. for ourselves, for our children, and for our country. i'll see you in oakland. >> this morning senator kamala harris officially entered the 2020 presidential race. nick confessore, noah rothman and yamiche alcindor are back with us. joining us now is the governor of washington state, democratic governor jay inslee who writes in an op-ed for the "washington post," quote, we are the first generation to feel the sting of climate change and we are the

last generation that can do something about it. the democratic party must nominate a candidate who will put fighting climate change at the top of the agenda and that's why i'm seriously considering running for president. governor, it's good to have you on board. you're considering it. so until you decide, who do you like so far in the field that we see and who has the strongest message? >> well, i think it's wonderful that we are going to have a great crop of candidates, a lot of diversity, we're going to have a lot of choices, but i'm going to make sure and do everything i can to make sure that we nominate a candidate who will put climate change foremost as a paramount duty of the united states and really will call the country to what i believe is its destiny, which is to develop a clean energy economy, to create millions of new jobs, to deal with the health threats to our children and the national security threats. i think to do that we are the openly party that has a chance

of giving our country that type of vision. so i do think it's important that we nominate a candidate who will have that message statement and call this country to that vision. this country will rise, we've seen it happen in the apollo project, the manhattan project, that's the kind of thing we need right now is a vision statement for the united states. i'm going to new hampshire tonight, they will have a college tour talking to the young people who understand the centrality of defeating climate change and the optimistic vision that i think this country deserves. >> i think young people do understand and are concerned about climate change, the request he is how do you make it into a message that addresses the concerns of middle class americans and others who feel left out by this economy? who feel left out by washington, whether it was obama, trump or, you know, longer before that in the presidencies that have led up to trump? how do we address the americans who feel left out and is there a

vision for the economy that includes climate change that actually can bring them in to follow a campaign perhaps of somebody like you? >> you bet. actually, i co-authored a book over ten years ago creating that vision of igniting a clean energy economic growth engine. we're seeing that today in my state where we have thousands of jobs now making material for electric cars and building solar panels and solar farms and wind turbine farms. we're seeing that job creation engine across the state. we simply need to really appeal to the central american character of being optimists, of being a can-do people. we are the people that sent a man to the moon, we ought to be the people that lead the world in an economic growth message around clean energy, and it is happening, all we need is a signal to the american people that this is our destiny. there is no single thing that connects more with people who

have had economic anxiety than a promise of a good paying job in the midwest, manufacturing and designing clean energy technologies. that's happening from michigan to iowa to ohio and today we simply need a president who will call forth the better angels of our creative energies to build that type of economy. so this isn't just about the economy, it is the economy. it's not just about health, it is health. it's not just about national security and the refugee crisis, it is an approach to reduce the threats to our nation. so this is why it needs to be a central premise of the next president and that's why the democratic party needs to nominate a candidate who will call forth that mission statement for the country. i'm dedicated to that proposition. >> what do you think -- what are the accomplishments as governor that you have that you think could be replicated on the national level? >> well, i'm very fortunate, i represent a state that has the

best economy in the united states, business insider magazine said we are the best place to do business in the united states. oxfam said we are the best place to work in the united states. that's nice book ends. the reason we have been so successful is we have adopted optimistic growth-oriented policies, the best paid family leave in the united states, big increases in our minimum wage. we've been the first state to adopt net neutrality. we've been the state with arguably the best voting rights. we have the state that has had a huge transportation infrastructure project, they can't build a bird house in washington, d.c., but we're moving forward with better early education, 24,000 students having financial aid for college. when you do those progressive things, what you get is tremendous economic growth. my state really is exhibit a to blow up the republican myth that if you do farsighted things it will hurt your economy. we've shown exactly the

opposite. we have an exhibit a of the washington way of how to build jobs, how to get people over the economic anxiety that they have felt, and central to that has been the clean energy economy. jobs today in the clean energy economy are growing twice as fast than the rest of the u.s. economy. number one job creation today is a solar installer, number two is a wind turbine technician. so when you put a job creation message as first and foremost around this tremendous opportunity, really great things happens. my state has demonstrated that. >> so, governor -- >> noah. >> -- all the enthusiasm that you see among the democratic grassroots is for a green new deal. we have some specific language in a proposal to create a select committee before congress which includes the following, now, transition to an all renewable economy or rather all renewable power generation from 20% to 100%, upgrade every residential

and industrial building for energy efficiency, scale down industrial agriculture, eliminate transportation emissions and create a jobs training and, quote, basic income program for those displaced. all within ten years, a lot of it on the credit card. is that too ambitious? >> it is appropriately ambitious. the time frame is short, the ipcc report, the scientific community has told us we have about 12 years to act or we are going to face potentially cataclysmic changes. these are scientific facts. they are difficult ones, but they are the science. what we have come to understand in this nation that we can do extremely bold and aggressive and entrepreneurial things if, in fact, we have a mission to call us forth. look, when we did the manhattan project, which was an all out effort to try to defeat fascism, we succeeded. when john f. kennedy said we are going to take a man to the moon and bring him back safely within ten years, people thought that was extraordinarily ambitious, but they were suited to the bold

vision of this country and i believe that if we create that type of bugle call to raise our ambitions, we are capable of doing extraordinary things. we are doing the things that you're talking about essentially in my state right now, i have proposed in my state a suite of five measures that will give us 100% clean electricity, that will give us cleaner transportation fuels, will give us commercial buildings that have net zero usage of energy. these things are capable of doing -- today we're doing in my state, we have more electric cars on the road per capita than perhaps any other state, maybe tied with california. jerry brown has shown tremendous leadership in california and we have shown when we do that do you know what we get? the best economies in the united states. so i do think being bold and ambitious is both necessary and possible. look, this is a time of great peril, but it is also a time of great promise and the promise is spectacular economic growth by developing these clean energy economies, i believe we're capable of doing that.

>> turning for a second, governor, to the shutdown in the other washington, d.c., i think with he often imagine that the shutdown affects washington and its suburbs, that it's just happening in d.c., but how has it affected your state? >> this is very painful. you know, folks have argued that you want to have government run like a business, but we didn't mean like a trump business, which is into the ground, and that's what's happening. look, we have coast guard people that are saving our lives and now this he have to worry about saving their rent and not getting thrown out of their homes. we have people who are not being trained to fight forest fires where we need to train them and my state and other places have been consumed by these forest fires but have been driven by climate change. so it's a two-fer. we have a president right now who calls climate change a hoax and now isn't paying people to train how to fight forest fires to keep our towns from burning down. i was in paradise, california, a few weeks ago and it looked like dresden after world war ii.

so this is extremely painful. how any american president can expect people to come to work and not get paid when they're saving our lives is beyond my imagination. so we need republican senators, this isn't a responsibility just to the president, we need republican senators to say enough is enough, stop this foolishness, open up government, we can have debates about how we structure appropriate border security. that's what needs to happen and we need to demand that to happen. america deserves it right now. >> governor jay inslee, thank you very much for being on. >> thank you. >> let us know when you decide. >> yeah. our next guest is a former member of the reagan administration and says donald trump has committed the, quote, most rookie mistake in the history of the american presidency. we'll tell you which one it was. presidency we'll tell you which one it was. [indistinct conversation] [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪

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( ♪ ) the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, affordably and on-time. (ringing) ( ♪ ) the future only happens with people who really know how to deliver it. we have the worst revival of an economy since the great depression, and believe me, we're in a bubble right now, and the only thing that looks good is the stock market, but if you raise interest rates even a little bit, that's going to come crashing down. we're in a big fat ugly bubble. we better be awfully careful. >> despite that warning from donald trump during the first presidential debate back in september of 2016, he has consistently taken personal credit for the market's gains during his first two years in office. joining us now, former republican congressman from michigan and director of the

office of management and budget, under president ronald reagan, best-selling author, david stokeman. in his new book, "peak trump, the undrainable swam and the fantasy of maga," he called the most rookie mistake in the history of the american presidency. that's quite a way of putting it, david. welcome back to the show. >> thank you. >> you say we're heading towards an economic crisis. are we careening toward it? what does it look like? what are you basing this on? >> there's the biggest stock market bubble in history. it's been going on for ten years. we're at month 119, the longest bull market ever. this market is way overvalued. he never should have embraced the stock market. i call it peak trump because it peaked, you know, at 2940 on september 20th and it's all

downhill from here. secondly, he keeps bragging about the greatest economy ever. we're near the end of a week-long expansion cycle that's headed for the next recession. if you take out the temporary blip that we had last summer from the exports, pulled forward by his trade policy or the extra spending that occurred because people took down their savings rate in order to spend the tax cut. if you take that away and look at the trend in the first seven quarters, gdp or final sales grew at 2.65% under trump, in the last 11 quarters under obama, it was 2.25%. no difference. there's been no boom. there's a recession coming. he's made it worse with the worst tax cut in modern history and a fiscal policy that is truly an abomination.

we're at year ten, as i said, of a recovery. you don't increase the deficit to $1.2 trillion. he has. we're at a time when the fed has to normalize. which means they're shrinking their balance sheet and dropping bonds into the market. they're not buying them. they're selling them. and the point i really think needs to be made is the bond pits are going to have to absorb $1.8 trillion of government debt, new debt from the treasury, existing debt, that the fed is dumping, and it's going to cause a tremendous cataclysm in the financial markets. we're heading for real trouble in the year ahead and i just reach all the way back to my days when i started capitol hill in 1973. nixon was riding high when he won in '73. the market dropped by 37% during the next 18 months. in august 1974, they put him on the memorial helicopter and sent

him out of town. i think that's where things are heading. >> out of town? >> out of town. >> out of town, okay. so but until then, he says we're doing very well. the president touts all of his successes. he would probably disagree with your opinion on his tax cuts. he's very proud of them. is there anything the president can do to ward off this recession or anybody in the administration qualified to deal with this in any way? >> no, because he doesn't take the fiscal problem seriously. and we have an immense fiscal problem. a deficit of this magnitude in a business cycle is unheard of. even the 1960s or '70s never would have embraced something like this. so there is a, you know, freight train coming down the road. it's going to hit in march when the debt ceiling expires. if you think the government shutdown is bad, wait until they

grapple with the debt ceiling after march. so i think we've been through kind of a two-year vacation here. but now the rubber's going to hit the road very hard. beyond that -- beyond that, trump tried to do the right thick with america first. he's been stymied at every turn of the road. he was right. they wouldn't let him do it. he was right. nato is obsolete. we should get rid of it. everybody went after him for stating. he's trying to do the right thing in korea and yet they keep coming after him on the basis of the status quo, which has been wrong for last 60 years. so on the one hand, his economic policy is a failure. on the other hand, his effort to rein in the empires i call it and get to something we can afford is being stymied. and then he's filled the swamp

with $100 billion more for the pentagon that is doesn't need. that's the deep end of the swamp. >> david, hold on a second, hold on, hold on. i just want to like hone in on one -- are you saying we should pull out of nato? >> sure. it's obsolete. it was only set up to stop the soviet union and 50,000 tanks on the warsaw front. that ended 25 years ago. we don't need nato. europe can take care of itself. russia's a pint-sized economy, 7% of size of u.s. economy. nato, u.s. gdp combined is $36 trillion. russia's $1.5 trillion. you think the europeans can't handle it? germany spends 1% only of gdp on defense. if they really thought that the russianings were heading through the brandenburg gate, they would be providing for their own defense. they're not passivists. it seems to me we're heading for the worst possible outcome.

a budget that's out of control. an entitlement state that no one wants to reform. a welfare state now with a trillion dollars a year of spending we can't afford. the economy's now going into recession just as the baby boom retires, and we have a massive increase in the number of social security and medicare beneficiaries. this isn't a pretty picture that lies ahead. i think trump just made a huge mistake by not doing what reagan did. he blamed carter and the democrats for the mess he inherited. when the thing got cleared, he could take credit for the recovery. that's not happening now. trump made a huge mistake, embracing the bubble and the aging business expansion that he inherited. >> understood. david stockman, we'll have you back to discuss nato.

i think there might be a few people that want to debate you in that. thank you so much for being on. the book is "peak trump, the undrainable swamp" and the fantasy of maga, out now. david stockman, thank you. just a few seconds left. i'll give the final thought to yamiche alcindor. what are you looking for today? another week where the shutdown is in day 31. and this friday, they'll be so many people would don't receive paychecks again. >> i'm looking to hear more stories about people that are impacted by this government shutdown. i think this is a president that, as much as he wants the wall, he is at times moved by television and at times moved by personal story. so i think as we hear more stories of people and their hardships having to deal with not having a paycheck, that this president may be having some move, they may be making some move on this offer to democrats. >> you know, i don't think he's

moved by personal stories. but to your point, he's moved by any bad branding. anything that might not be going his way in the media. so hopefully those personal stories will translate into enough for the president to budge or to figure this out without him. that does it for us this morning. hally jackson picks up the coverage. >> i'm hallie jackson in for stephanie ruhle. this morn, deal or dud? president trump throws out his offer to reopen the government. protection for nearly 1 million immigrants in exchange for border wall funding. similar to the one the president rejected this summer. democratic leaders are not feeling it and neither are the folks to the right of trump. as 800,000 federal workers enter a full month without pay. >> if i don't have my paycheck, i will be evicted.