i want to tell you tomorrow we have something very special, we think unusual, related to the mueller probe. on the show tomorrow. 6:00 p.m. eastern. that's all i can say. don't go anywhere. "hardball" with cris chris matt is up next. an offer he couldn't refuse. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews. live from washington where the bs is sky high. with rudy giuliani all over the tv and the president's state of the union still in the darb. the question is will he or won't he? will donald trump appear next tuesday night? and will rudy ever not appear? claire mccaskill will join me to talk about the showdown between president trump and speebspeake

over state of the unit. a picture of a chaotic west wing and his own aids. and his confession that he pushed a real estate deal in moscow right up until the 2016 election that casts the trump campaign in a dark new light. it means he's seeking rubls at the same time kremlin launched a campaign to deliver him votes. and new suspicions about his foreign policy proposals during the 2016 election. that includes his talk of brabibra breaking up nato o, all kisses to russia. let's watch. >> i'll tell you about nato. it's obsolete and we're paying too much money. either they pay up including for

past deficiencies or they have to get out and if it breaks up nato o, it breaks up nato. >> i believe i would get along very nicely with putin, okay. i don't think you'd need the sanctions. i think that we would get along very, very well. >> we'll be looking that. >> well, giuliani tried desperately to take back his confession, he said the same thing in december. he said that president told mueller in his written testimony that talks could have gone off all the way that election in november of 2016. >> did donald trump know that michael cohen was pursuing the trump tower in moscow into the summer of 2016? >> according to the answer that he gave t would have covered up

to november of -- november of 2016. >> well, that answer from giuliani last month is exactly what he said again on sunday. let's watch. >> i'm guessing you had to answer this question in written form by mr. mueller. so it's your understanding it ended when? >> could be up to as far as october or november. our answerers cover up to the election. >> our answers cover the election. ium wrr joined by john brennan. boy, it sounded like a directs question in this room on sunday on "meet the press." did this include in the president's responses to robert mueller? and it said we had negotiations with the moscow deal all the way to the end of the election. >> i think he's trying to cover the bases up to election day but it's clear in my mind that

donald trump is not clear whether he's going to prevail and he was keen for many years in trying to get a trump tower in moscow. so keeping those engagements open and trying to entice the russians, i think it reflects that there were active business discussions ongoing when donald trump was running for president of the united states. >> the obvious conflict was obvious to donald trump. he never has admitted he was doing these dealings with putin who has to approve any real estate of that magnitude during the time he was campaigning as an american leader, trying to pretend he was looking out for the american people when he was making a deal. >> i think he was pursuing some financial opportunities while he was considering first the run for the president and during the campaign and that's why i think the mueller investigation is

really important to try to get to the bottom of what was underway in terms of what was talked about, what was promised, what was pledged, because since election day, donald trump's behavior and actions towards russia and putin are quite, quite puzzling in terms of is he trying to pay back? cover up? is he trying to follow through on some commitments? and the fbi financial investigators are some of the best in the world and i'm confident they're going to come up with whatever may have transpired. >> every time we see the president and putin, he's smirking. he's a very cold customer, very cold. i get the sense he knew everything we're talking about. the trump people informed him he was going to allow him having a penthouse suite for $50 million worth. all that time he's watching trump campaign and deny working such a deal.

he knew trump was lying to the american people. >> and it's quite clear mr. putden know as lot more about what the american people know. t the two-hour one on one conversation with putin. there's still not been a readout to his own national security team. >> he smirks every time he gets in a room with a guy. >> there's some kind of special relationship between the two of them and mr. putin, is an exceptionally well-trained kgb officer has cultivated this relationship and is now taking full advantage of it. >> would trump be behaving differently if there weren't compromises? >> i don't know the answer to that question. again -- >> doesn't he act like a guy who's been taken? >> he acts like he has an ulterior motive that is not

apparent. and whether or not he's trying to cover up something, whether he's fearful of what mr. putin might do. tl the national security establishment is critcome of mr. trump's policies towards russia. even the republican senators abandoning him with the recent vote in congress. rather than relaxing the sanctions, a number of republicans said no, that's not the right thing to do. so why is he doing this at such a political cost in his party in the national security environment? it's quite unclear. >> well, donald trump jr. is also playing down the family's moscow project and his part in it. >> when was the last discussion can about this trump tower deal? becauses rudy got everybody really confused, i have to say. >> i don't know. i don't talk about things that i don't knabout. but the reality is this wasn't a deal.

we don't know the developer, we don't know the site, we don't know the -- anything about it. ultimately it was michael cohen essentially trying to get a deal done. he wasn't exactly a deal guy, didn't bring too many to the table, so i don't think anyone took it too seriously. >> discussed the status and progwrsz the moscow oproject with trump and he briefed family members about the project. and we know trump sr signed a letter of intent for the mauvo deal. is a possible that cohen was out there as a lone rider, cut canning these deals who's being cut by the trumps? >> i feel it hard to believe he would have went out on a limb when he was such a part of the syndicate at that time. when i was director of cia there were a lot of very, very curious interactions between u.s.

persons that may have been affiliated with the trump campaign and russian officials or citizens and jim comey and i had a lot of conversations about it. that's why i said in public testimony that was right the fbi pulled these tle pulled threads to find out whether michael cohen and others were being duped or cultivating on their own with russians that they were then trying to capitalize on. i believe mr. trump was looking to enhance his financial interests in the case he didn't win the election. >> on wisconsin avenue over looking the city with a line of sight to the white house, we've got the russians. what are they saying? your can t you're the pro here. when they watch him on tv and report the soft intelligence every night about trump's kisses he keeps blowing to mosque eo,

how do they interpret 24over there? >> first of all russians are laughing at what's happening united states because we're in such disray and mr. trump is undermining u.s. national security interest. so even no mr. putin hasn't achieved his objective of getting sanctions removed -- >> it seems like a high school kids crush dream. you're going to get against within of the greatest bullwork against us since 1947. >> that the president would be saying this about the world's greatest alliance that has kept us safe. and the reckless announcement f pulling our troops out of syria it's playing into moscow o's

hands. >> is he loyal? >> is who loyal? >> to? >> to himself he is. >> joining me right now, u.s. congressman on the house intelligence committee and u.s. it senator on the houses judiciary committee. i think i'm looking at chuck schumer and nanlcy pelosi. but congresswoman, you're much looser, i must say. rudy giuliani seems out of his mind. he's making references to tapes, then he'll admit to the fact that the president signed on as his written response to robert mueller about rudy giuliani's role and all this stuff and then he denies it all.

what do you make of this carry-on white house right now? >> i actually think it's intentional. i think it's his way of leaking out explosive information drip by drip and then confusing everyone by saying one thing one day and contradicting himself the next. so when in fact the mueller investigation becomes public, people aren't going to be shocked and surprised by what they hear and they'll be confused, which is exactly what donald trump and rud rudy giuli want to have happen. >> if donald trump were to engage in a big business deal in conflict to everything he's saying to the american people, why wouldn't he be willing to collude on other matters like hillary e? beating her? >> that's an interesting question and with each passing

day and evidence that. >>s into the domain, the cloud of suspicion over pennsylvania avenue the trump campaign grows stronger. that's why we need an investigation, which is currently being led by special counsel, robert mueller, inwhethinto whether they were to artificially place donald trump into 1600 pennsylvania avenue and we as house democrats are wanting to make sure that information gets presented to the american public. >> remember this die deripaska? there he is billionaire russianole gark. he used to work with manafort. and offered him briefings during the summer of 2016. this month the trump

administration defended their sudden decisions saying he made major financial concessions for relief. and the "new york times"s released a document that shows deripaska could actually benefit the agreement. that reportedly shows it contains provisions that free him from debt while leaving him and his allies with majority ownership 06 ownership of the company. what do you make of this constant blowing kisses to moscow? i've never seen an american presidents more pro-russian. >> mr. mnuchin, who is the treasury, secretary, who put this together also sold his interest in a hollywood studio to leonard -- as it turns out gave a million. >>s to the trump inaugural and

he's the second largest holder of stock of the company that dar deripaska owns. they've seen their shares increase 25% since the announcement was made about the sanctions being removed. this is a travesty and shows once again that president trump all roads lead to russia. >> what can the congress do? before you get a robert mueller report? it could be february, next summer, god knows whether. >> i think we're going to see active investigations ongoing conducted by jacky in the intelligence committee as well as under jerry nad wler with respect to unfolding and

unraveling so that information gets presented to the american public in the event they try to block access to the muellerings have. as you know having worked in a high-level institution, we pride ourselves in being a separate and co equal branch of government and we have a constitutional branch of government and we're going to take that responsibility seriously. i think that's going to be led by the intel and judiciary committee. >> can you get enough evidence on your own to consider impeachment? consider it. people are saying around the edges that the congress should act on their own investigative ability to find the evidence one way or another and decide on impeachment. do you need mueller? >> i think we do need mueller. i think he has so much more information than we have at this time. i was struck by the poll that shows 67% of the americans don't

trust the president of the united states. is that a high crime and misdemeanor. is that a lack of trust in the president of the united states we should act upon? it's something we need to start considering. but i think the mueller investigation and its report is going to be key to the movement going forward. >> thank you. and by that way you represent my son. he lives in your district, mr. jeffries. >> i'm proud to do it. >> coming up. rudy giuliani who doesn't care that his epitaph could be i lied for trump. he'll be dad, so it won't matter, he says. and donald trump is consideringer a walk-through for his state of the union address. speaker pelosi has suggested he forgo. senator claire maccaskal is there talk about it. a new book a tell all by a

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welcome back to "hardball." rudy giuliani was hired as the public face. and he's been a twin of contraversioner -- to clean up involvement in the moscow trump tower, giuliani retreated from his previous denial saying it doesn't matter. because even if he did do it, it wouldn't be a crime. and giuliani tried to knock down the explosive allegations by

"buzzfeed" that he tries to congress by cleaning up the tapes. he said i shouldn't have said tapes. frus no tapes. i just listened to tapes but none of them concerned thi this confused? they've even left some of the white house people perplexed. a senior official said giuliani's recent comments were quote not helping. and quote if nothing good can come of the, don't do it a former assistant special prosecutor during the watergate investigation and former republican party chairman. jill, thanks for all this and i keep thinking ron zigler during watergate. they referred to it ass a clock figure. a coo coo that came out once in a while and said something ridiculously wrong and dishonest and retreated back to the clock.

well, giuliani is out there like a rodeo clown. what's his role? to distract us? to take the heat? to muddy the waters? how do you see his role? >> i think he is distracting us and we shouldn't let him distract us. if there is a theory behind his ridiculous statements, it's hard to figure out what it is. but possibly it is to deliberately distract or to sort of announce in advance what bad news is coming because as defense lawyers, it is not a typical for us to try to get out before it comes out so that sounds less bad to a jury. but in this case i think when it comes out, in context, it will sound worse because he's going back and forth. he would at least stick to one story, it would be better. he says tapes.

oh, woops, i didn't mean tapes. you can't get away with it. >> do you think he's always clear head snd is he always sharp of mind? it's after dinner. >> i think if there is any degree of confusion it comes from whatever conversation or exchange he had with donald trump behave hand. and so he's trying to mix together all the various angles trump has talked to him about. because at the end of the day, rudy is there to be the front man for donald trump and ba basically pairt back to the public -- >> the communists would say i'm not a communist but if i am so what? and he keeps saying if i did do it, so what. >> that puts the onus on you to prove what's so bad about what

i'm doing? and it puts you in a defense to go this is what's wrong with what you're doing? and he's like so what. what's tlr big deal? >> is it a prevent defense? >> very much. oh, absolutely. >> basically let them have the yardage. we're ahead in touchdowns. we'll give them a few yards. first all of he says he didn't do it. then he goes well, he may have had that conversation. he may have had the business deal right through the end of the election. he may have been colluding but that's not illegal. that seems nonlawyerly. >> the best news, as a lawyer who's heard almost every lawyer joke you can hear is he's acting as a pr agent, he's not acting as a lawyer. i don't know when he last practiced law. so he's giving pr people a bad

name instead of lawyers. it's just nonsense. >> here he is. rudy giuliani was asked if he was at all worried his legacy would be muddied for his tenure as lawyer? he said absolutely. so what if i carial are arbe dead. i have a sense of ethics as high as anybody you can imagine. >> he cares. trust me he does care very much. and the defensive tone of that. the way he comes back around tells you that, that is concerning to him how he's perceived publicly. he was the mayor of new york at 9/11. that had a level of grav toss to it that surpassed everything and now compared to what who's doing

>> announcing his divorce on television, all the terrible personal stuff, he was somebody during the hell during the days aifr after 9/11 that was giving this news when he got it. that's what you want. you want the police commission, the cop on the corner. you want him to give you the stuff. now he's giving us what you call garbly gook. it's not a good show. >> i worked with him in the organized crime section. he was a very revered and respected lawyer and he did a very good job them. something has diminished him. i don't know why he is acting this way. that's something that worries me as to why is he acting this way? >> i think it was joe lewis the

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welcome back to "hardball." will he or won't he? press secretary sarah sandards told reporters moments ago that president trump is moving forward with plans to deliver the state of the union address. according to the white house that might mean delivering somewhere other than the capitol. if trump were to deliver somewhere else and perhaps to an audience other than members of congress, pelosi was asked bout that earlier today. >> we understand the white house was sent a letter that president trump still intends to come to the state of the union next year. >> we just want people to get paid for their work. >> with no resolution for the 20, 32nd day, they will miss another paycheck at the end of this week.

today was the deadline. president trump said he's never seen mitch mcconnell and republicans so united on an issue. the firs bill is the president's proposal that includes money for the border wall. the second is the democrat's proposal to reopen until february 8th. both proposals are expected to lose. senator, it's great to have you on. not so great you lost and your a part of our family now. >> it's my pleasure. it will be fun. >> let me ask you about this crazy game of chicken. the president seems to be threatening pelosi with i'm going to show up whether you invite me or not. i might show up at senate, the saloon. i don't know where he intends to hold this thing. >> it's a little bit of theater on his part. that's what he's good at.

is trying to dominate a news cycle without outrages stuff. there is no way he's going to gave state of the union address from the house chamber without the speaker of the house signing off on it. i'm just betting he ends up with one of those rallies. he loves him some rallies. i'm betting he ends up with an auditorium full of very, very rabid trump supporters where he will rift for 45 minutes about how much he's winning and how great everything is. >> and that message will be i warned you about how the democrat, liberal, media control the government and now y78 i'm outsider. does he want to be the guy shut out of the party? >> i think he wants to be seen as against the establishment and status quo. the problem is he's gone so far. so many people are out there

that are suffering right now that aren't getting paychecks. so many people are seeing this as really, you guys can't figure out how to pay the people who are supposed to be protecting the border? who are supposed to be making sure that people who go through airports aren't terrorists? you can give all the lip service you want to national security but he is really stretching national security with his unwillingness to reopen the government and then sit down and work a deal in the middle on some immigration reform and i will tell you what we need at the border. we need more port of entree officers and we're way understaffed at the ports of entree. i'm not talking about the agents that patrol the border. that's what we should be talking about. >> you really think trump cares about drugs? i think he cares about the

hispanic, latino people coming from below the border that his constituents are worried about. it's not about drugs. it's ethnicity and race. >> i don't think he caress about anything but himself and keeping his base and so yes, there's an undercurrent of race. butted he keeps talking about drugs. if he really caress about drugs, they would hammer out a stopping the flow of drugs. but the thing they're going to vote on that mitch is going to put on the floor for the republicans and what's called a side by side for the democrats. the democrats are going to put something up. everybody's going to be able to vote to open the government. they never would have put a poison pill there, basically blowing the asylum process out of the water. they threw that in there because

they're not interested in getting votes. >> the question is how does the shutdown end? they told the washington post white house officials and gop leaders would accept virtually any offer from democrats. i think that's so interesting. you're pointing out that senators in a c.y.a. move, in other words protect themselves at home will be able to vote for the government but they'll be voting for something that has a wall and doesn't have a wall and both are deal breakers. >> right and the thing that really shows mcconnell's hands. we passed a bill last year 100-0 that would have funded the government. if mcconnell wanted to get a bill passed, he wouldn't have put stuff in it he knew would scare off most of the other side and that's the things he stuck in there about asylum, basically ending the asylum process for

many, many people throughout the world that might want to come to this country because of untenable conditions in their own nations. so i don't think he's serious about thursday. i think he's postering. if mitch mcconnell wanted this to end, he could figure out a way to get it ended before the weekend. >> what's tlr story with this guy's face, mitch mcconnell? i don't know if he has any ideology, other than less taxes i guess that helps him politically. he just survives. he doesn't stand for anything, especially during this crisis in the government shutdown, he doesn't stand for anything and he just stands by and watches pelosi fight it out with the president. how does he do it? >> first of all he does have an ideology. it's called i want to remain majority floor leader. so all you have to do is figure out what is he going to do to protect his members? he wants to make sure that those

senators, republican senators, that are in tough states in 2020 get reelecced. he's always wanted to be majority floor leader, he only wants to be majority floor leader. he doesn't care about donald trump. he cares about staying majority floor leader. what he's going to do is what he thinks he needs tootoo protect his members. >> it sounds like netanyahu. he just likes the job. it looks to me missouri is almost insurmountable. trump really seems to have your state. ohio pretty much too. should the democrats be looking at north carolina and as arizona? states that were much closer in 2016? >> first of all i think ohio is a state we have to look at. brown was reelected last year. trump's numbers are not great in ohio.

i think that's definitely going to be ea battle ground and even though he won my state by almost 20, our election was much closer than that. heerbz here's the bottom line. we've got to nominate somebody who's inspiring who has great ideas, that can convince the american people he is going to move the needle in things that matter to their life and pennsylvania, wisconsin, iowa, florida, arizona. those are the places -- north carolina. those are the places that this presidency will be in play. he is not doing well in those states and he won all of them in 2016. we just have to nominate the right person. >> please keep coming back with that leadership call. up next. tune in tomorrow night. mcmcconnell is coming on.

mcconnell? mitch landieu. it's all about loyalty. not to country or party but to guess who? donald trump. toue gss who donald trump i'm a bunch of wind. and just like your stomach after that strip mall sushi, well, i'm a bit unpredictable. let's redecorate. whatsyamatter tanya, i thought you loved being spontaneous?

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♪ welcome back to "hardball." we're getting another insider account of life in the white house. this time it's a book "team of vipers" from a little known spells assistant to the president. sims describes tas white house e calls absolutely out of control. one reference is trump's reaction shortly after the white house supremacist protest in charlottesville. >> i do believe that he messed up in his comments on tuesday

when it sounded like a moral ekwivication or at least moral ambiguity, when we need extreme moral clarity. >> according to this comments like those prompted the presidents to telephone ryan. telling ryan, paul, do you know why democrats have been kicking your blank for decades? because they know a little word called loyalty. why do you think nancy pelosi has held on this long? have you seen her? she's a disaster. every time she opens her mouth another republican gets elected but they stuck with her. why can't you be loyal to your president, paul? and shows him dist rancing from trump in the aftermath of the access hollywood tape. this is trump. i remember being in wisconsin your own people were booing you. you were throughout dying like a dog, like a dog and what did i do? i saved your blank.

and sims recall as private huddle in which he and shiler, the long time body guard and confident, helped him draw up an enemy's list. this is trump we're going to get rid all of the snakes, even the bottom feeders. he told him. but wait till you hear what 230r former chief of staff john kelly. former chief of staff john kelly. eria and just chow down midday? -you mean, like, lunch? -come on. voted "most likely to help people save $668 when they switch." -at this school? -didn't you get caught in the laminating machine? -ha. [ sighs ] -"box, have a great summer. danielle." ooh. danielle, control yourself. i'd like to slow it down here with a special discount for a special girl. danielle, this one's for you. with a special discount for a special girl. ♪ when you have nausea, ♪ heartburn, ♪ indigestion, ♪ upset stomach, ♪ diarrhea...

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although i read it all the time, pretty consistently, i'm not quitting today. i don't believe and i justed talked to the president, i don't think i'm being fired today and i'm not so frustrated in this job that i'm thinking of leaving. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was a pumped up guy, former chief of staff, john kelly, describing his job not too many months ago. his discontent was widely reported until hiss departure last month. what a great title "team of vipers." according to excerpts obtained by "washington post" kelly once conifieded to him this is the worst blank job i have. people think i care when they write i might be fired.

if that happened it would be the best day i've ever had since walking into this place. and sense of humor is a columniest at the "washington post." it seems like there's no loyalty. i'm a big believer in loyalty to the guy you work, even trump. but these books are just coming out and they talk about everything that happens in there. >> partly because the president had this kind of open door policy where you had staffers that would never usually have this much access to the president being able to walk in to the oval office and spew whatever they wanted. but in this book what you see is a trump white house out of control, where people are doing whatever they want and where the president himself is more interested in watching tv, than listening to the speaker of the house, paul ryan. that's pretty remarkable. >> he had an enemy's list he put

together of the people working for him in the white house. bottom feeders, he called them. these people he's getting advice from every day. bottom feeder. >> there are enemies everywhere frathis president and i think the remarkable thing would be if somebody writes a book and says there's order in the white house. >> rudy giuliani will do that one. >> he may be the only person left. >> it seems he wanted to spank paul ryan for loyalty. the role model he hung up is nancy pelosi and now he's going to war with her >> and it shows you that he respects her. >> no nickname. >> no nickname yet. and there's this idea she knows how to deal with her people. that whatever their issues are with nancy pelosi, they rally around her.

even if i think nazis are fine people, i deserve your loyalty and you need give to me and he's not gettinging it because they never really wanted to have him as president in the first place. >> i think they're afraid of her and they like her. excerpts of the book released by axios revealed the president's cable news obsession. in the book simses writes the most trumpian tactic the communications team employed was arguing about the chyrons. people watch tv on mute the president told them. so it's those sometimes beautiful, nasty little words that matter. in other words it's not just television, it's television without the sound. >> there are people who think in paragraphs.

just last week lindsey graham was saying trump is a one-page guy. i think he's a one-line guy. we all know msnbc has the best chryons in the business and everyone is proud of it. >> there it is. book, trump obsessed over sometimes nasty tv banners. >> it's down to the insult, the tweet, the chryon. it's how the president thinks. he just does not seem to have an attention span, any depth of understanding. >> how many karblg characters are in a tweet? the genius behind regan, he used to say a piece on and sasay thank you, leslie because they just wanted to see the pictures. >> i think he reflects american society.

there are people who call and yell at me just because of the headline and for a while i'd say you need read my entire article. then i realize sometimes people only read the headlines which a wlut of writers don't write for themselves, that could be the most important part people take ab away from the president. he's also reflecting what a lot of americans see >> and he's not wrong, as a salesman but it's wrong in 2ur78s 2ur7terms of governing and that's why he's getting clobbered in the shutdown. >> the student at the center of the face-to. e center of the face-to.

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welcome back to "hardball." kentucky high school students were in the spotlight this weekend after a video went viral showing them inciting native american. phillips says he stepped between the students and another group to defuse a tense situation. savannah guthrie spoke in an exclusive interview today. >> do you feel from this experience that you owe anybody an apology? do you see your own fault in any way? >> as far as standing there, i

had every right to do so. i -- my position is that i was not disrespectful to mr. phillips. i respect him. i'd like to talk to him. i mean in hindsight i wish we could have walked away and avoided the whole thing. >> that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." >> i am proud to shut down the government. >> 32 days into the trump shutdown. >> a steven miller sneak attack. >> i am shocked. >> donald trump's latest attempt at a bait and switch in thencer to the burning question. >> #where's mitch. feed federal employees in crisis. >> we have all the