the washington bureau and we're so grateful to them. we're squatting in chuck todd's tuesday owe. >> i get to be in your studio a few times a week a as well. >> if it is friday, is president trump sinking like a stone? >> good evening, welcome here, it has been a bad day for this president. he had to cave on the shut down, the government will reopen temporarily and he gets nothing for his proposed wall. his long time associate roger sent to has been indicted on seven counts, all of which he

denies. and it looks like mueller has a gut punch. we saw the president do something we have never really seen before. he declared defeat and seemed to admit it. >>ly sign a bill to open our government for three weeks until february 15th. i have seen and heard from enough democrats and republicans that they are willing to put partisanship aside, i think -- >> to be clear the he accepted the offer that he got at the

beginning of the shut down. nbc news has cracked a few codes in this filing, and contained in the charges is an apparent road map of how trump campaign collusion including senior campaign officials, possibly mueller himself. stone appears to have been fed the knowledge of those woikileas exposures. mueller revealed that a senior campaign official has been directed to contact stone about any additional releases and what over damaging organization had regarding the clinton campaign. the indictment talks about how he got a status of future releases by wikileaks, it's information, and the high ranking official is steve

bannon. it is a remarkable indictment on a remarkable day. what does it mean from the president? it is possible collusion between wikileaks and the trump campaign. let's bring in chuck rosenfort. sal wisenberg. pete, let me start with you. this indictment seems to be in two parts, explain. >> certainly in terms of the charges that is one part. the legal trouble for roger stone is that when he was asked about all of this in front of the house intelligence committee, he lied. he lied about his contacts, the nature of his contacts, he lied about whether or not he had text

and e-mail messages. if he asked for information from julian assange, and his communications with the intermediary. you talk about collusion between the campaign and wikileaks, at best it is collusion two steps removed. he was pounding his chest and brags i know what wikileaks will do. and they said find out what else you can find. it was so embarrassing to deb by wasserman schultz. he contacts to other people that would be in touch with assange, and a radio host who had julian assa assange and his radio show. so trump said find out what he knows, and there are all kinds

of jobs. find out if there is anything more about their inabout to act effectively as sec fair of state. when he was asked about all of that he lied and he told his intermediary to lie as well and very colorfully the indictment said be like that guy in the godfather movie that lied when he was called before congress. >> if he doesn't lie before congress about his contacts, and if he was as specific, denying specific portions of "i didn't move documents from russians and things like this." would it be a crime to coordinate with wikileaks. >> well, so maybe, we're nibbling at a conspiracy here, right? pete is right i don't think this indictment of stone demonstrates at conspiracy, but it hints at

one. is it a crime to coordinate, well if they knew, for instance, that wikileaks was getting their information from hacked dnc computers courtesy of russia, sure. but if they thought wikileaks just stumbled into it and they wanted it for opposition research in the campaign, then no. the answer is a big fat maybe. based on what we see here in the indictment, we don't have that yet. >> does this explain why rudy giuliani started talking about i only denied collusion between the president and himself as an individual, not speaking for the entire campaign, all of a sudden that seems relevant now. do you find that relevant? >> i can't begin to fathom the reasons for what rudy juligiuli

says. that's long kgical but you're assuming a logical and rational world. they don't have criminal conspiracy yet as evidenced in this indictment. to have aiding and abetting you have to know something is going on that is essentially criminal and you have to knowingly decide to join it. similar with conspiracy. so the question would be always there has to be a crime at the end of that. here the krum would be gcrime w aide from russia, or knowing their hacking computers, it is certainly not there yet, but it is very embarrassing for the trump folks. >> one of our other legal analysts that i heard this morning, joyce vance, she said it looks like one-half of an

indictment. how are we supposed to interpret that. explain that in english for us. >> i think what she meant is that as an experienced prosecutor reading it, she thought they have more and they're not sketching it all out here. they're possibly holding it hoping that maybe he will make an agreement and hold it over his head. >> are they testing to see if he wants to cooperate. >> it seems like he doesn't, but what joyce may be driving at is there is things you may know but you can't prove, there are things that you know you know. i sound a little like rumsfeld. >> i didn't intend that. >> but sometimes they just not there yet. when you look at the manafort indictments, he was charged in

two districts, but in another one they super seeded when they brought more charges. i think what joyce is getting at is that there is more to the story. whether or not they tell the rest of the story by charging stone or tell the rest of the story in a report, or tell the rest of the story by charging others remains to be scene. >> can i get to a point about whether or not this was a crime or not. the skens of events, they say we have been hacked by the russians. so at that point before they put anything out in july anyone trying to get the e-mails should have known. >> the is good, this will feed off of your point here, it is five days in july that we think is significant here. that same day is when the senior campaign official directs -- is

directed to contact stone to find out more. five days more is when candidate trump asked russia to find the e-mails, that same day according to mueller they did target k clinton's e-mails. is that pattern there suddenly of criminal interest. does it paint a larger experience picture? >> everything is of potential criminal interest for special council mueller. i never bought the theory that i hear from time to time that mueller has a grand plan and he is dliribbling this stuff out. if he had a case, and he has a number of cases here, and he puts them forward, i think if he

had something greater than what we have seen, we would have seen it in charging interests. >> roger stone's attorney, grant mitt, said the following thing today, if they found anything they would be charging him with it. is that your assumption? >> i agree with that if you have the evidence. if you look at all of the agreements, those that came in and pled, you have the person pleading to the tact that he did, but you him plead to the high e highest highest criminal act. you could add a few elements and have a conspiracy but you don't have them right now. there is a difference between

what we don't like and what is criminal. we may not like that someone said find out what they're going to do next, but that doesn't make it a crime. >> we were talking about one of the challenges in how we cover this story is there is a portrayal that everything is one thread and it will all be connected. it seems to me what feels like five different threats, circles, buckets. there is wikileaks. the trump tower meeting. trump tower moscow. paul manafort and his dealings with the ukraine and russian intelligence asset, and the russian infiltration of our system. is it possible that they're all going to lead to the same maybe

countries interference in putin, but they're not connected? >> they may be connected in the broadest sense only by common players, but we speak as prosecutors of multi-object conspiracies. maybe one of the conspiracies is that the president directing cohen to pay off trump mistresses. maybe one of the conspiracies is to, you know, betweenman fort and gates to commit financial fraud. they may not be connected at all, and the five that you mentioned, they all seem to be similar but but it could be in the end their just separate conspiracies. >> one of the things that we have spoke about here. she was in the obama administration, and i'm warning

you here i'm teeing up pete on a topic i want you to comment on. it looks like mueller may be able to connect wikileaks to the trump campaign and russia to wikileaks. we have not seen the threats to connect trump to russia on the roger stone line of investigation. >> correct and nor does this indictment connect roger stone to russia. it says that roger stone was bragging that he could get this stuff and the campaign said well go for it, see what else you can get, and he then freelancing on his own, instead of in a self promotional way, he is trying to push other people to see what they can get from wikileaks. he painted this own target on his back. he was publicly claiming early on he had been in touch with julian

julian assange. but nothing directly connects him to the campaign or the russians. >> so what is wikileaks. is it a journalistic organization, which if it is, i think the questions of what is criminal and what isn't as sal put it, you may not like it, it may be unethical, but it may not be illegal. or are they a front for russian intelligence. and it seems the american intelligence community is convinced they're a conduit. what is that intelligence? >> i think first of all they may have started as whistle-blowers. none of their whistle blowing inlewded releasing cables or information that the detrimental to the kremlin. they were always very russia friendly and something happened and the intelligence community

believes that wikileaks has been an operative. they have not been part of the russian government but they are working to help them. the evidence for that is, again, an absence of any kind of leak that makes russia look bad. and the cooperation with goosifer 2.0. we later found out that was not a individual, it is the russian military intelligence unit. so you had them basically telling wikileaks we have this information and wikileaks asking for the information, but who knows what was going on behind the scenes. certainly he was not having another channel with the russian government. >> i would assume if they could make this assessment, what would

be the types of evidence they would have? they would have more than just making an analytical assessment, correct? >> sure, it wouldn't all necessarily be in roger stone's e-mails, right? there is all types of tools the u.s. government has. that they rely on, they collect, they analyze, but you may not see it in an indictment either. so this is what i was trying to say earlier but i didn't do a good job of. it may be that the mueller team knows exactly what happened, but they're not going to put it into a public indictment. we were all surprised at the evil of detail for the intelligence officials was extraordinary. we know what they're capable of knowing, the mueller team, it may just be that for some reason we're not going to see here. they have sufficient charges against roger stone, they will con vuvict him and they're keep

the jewels for something else. >> they have decided they're not a journalistic society. i have to take a break, thank you. chuck you're stuck. we are never going to let you leave this building. is roger stone's indictment just the beginning? what could come next as roger mueller builds his case. as rog mueller builds his case. ( ♪ ) so, every day, we put our latest technology and vast expertise to work. ( ♪ ) the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, affordably and on-time. (ringing) ( ♪ ) the future only happens with people who really know how to deliver it. the future only happens if your moderate to severeor crohn's symptoms are holding you back,

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♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪ itand the army taught me wa lot about commitment.

which i apply to my life and my work. at comcast we're commited to delivering the best experience possible, by being on time everytime. and if we are ever late, we'll give you a automatic twenty dollar credit. my name is antonio and i'm a technician at comcast. we're working to make things simple, easy and awesome. i made clear that i would not testify against the president. i am one of his oldest friends. i think he is doing a great job making america great again. >> that was roger stone vowing he would never testify against president trump. that has been a promise that has

been made and broken by other past trump associates, perhaps most famously michael cohen who sads he would take a bullet for trump which is not the case now. joining us is chuck rosenfort. let me begin with the idea that stone, carol lee, would never taerld e turn against the -- never turn against donald trump. >> i think your first point is the key point. not only the rupt is deeper, but she a different animal. he is a different type of person. he is a show boat. his whole persona is around

being defiant and in your faus. >> i was just going to say i'm hoping the team will put up the nixon thing. that was quintessential roger stone. >> he has a sttattoo of nixon o the back of his neck, the idea, and i'm sure you heard millions of times people say i will never flip, i will never flip, but he is just a little different in that sense. the other thing that he said when he came out was that it is better to be talked about than not talked about. and the way he would be talked about is just not the kind of thing that brought -- it just goes completely against his whole mo. >> the president tweeted this morning greatest witch hunt in the history of our country.

by the way, who alerted cnn to be there? chuck rosenberg you have been very upset by the way some are portraying what the fbi did, and why is it so appropriate? >> and i was about to get a nixon tattoo, but i'm going to hold off for now. >> you look like a tattoo guy. >> i don't think it is even a close call. here is why. even though it may be a first offense, it seems like a white collar criminalish thing, he is chargedtampering. tells a witness he will go after his dog and then he says prepare to die expletive. you fill in the blank. if you're the fb urks, if you're a federal prosecutor, you don't

tolerate that behavior nor do you risk that if you hand him a summons that he won't make good on that threat. so you ask a course for an arrest warrant, and in this case they granted it and they executed it properly. with guns? you bet, fbi agents carry webs, that's what they do. i think the outcry about arresting him is nonsense. >> anna, i think you're our expert on jerome coursey. the -- what rogers, when he was witness tampering, it was these two that he was trying to shape their testimony. walk us through that relationship and why is he depending mueller today and saying i'm praying for roger

stone, but mueller is telling the truth? >> this is really interesting when you read through the indictment and you see all of the lies that roger stone told the congressional committee. he actually gave me exclusive access to multiple text massages with the radio host that had a connection to julian assange. it is very interesting in trying to protect his narrative he remembered telling the congressional committee that randy in supplemental testimony was his back channel to wikileaks. he felt that by showing these text messages is proed that point and yet it flew correctly in the face of what he told congressional committees.

so he is probably wondering about his strategy. the fact is that mueller got his hands on all of the communications. now stone goes back a long time with both of these men and he considered them friends. until he started to intimidate randy and try to get him not to tell investigators he was the back channel. and more recently they have fallen out. once he said they provided that system, he turned on him. she a liar and somebody working. he says he was shocked by the arrest. he is praying for roger stone, and he still might sue him next week. >> would you portrait him as a

patsy here or someone that was wanting to be bigger than he was. >> i think you could use that characterization for all three of these men. >> i think that is a fair point the other riddle is why is roger stone so careful in what he says in public television interviews and so careless talking to congress. listen to these two answers to questions i asked him. >> i can say with confidence that i don't know of any rub shan collusion or any other inappropriate act that i ever had any advanced knowledge of the content, the source, or the exact timing of the wikileaks

disclosures. there is no evidence whatsoever that i had advanced knowledge of the content or the source of the material. i passed nothing on to donald trump and the trump campaign. we have been through this ad nauseam, this is a wild goose chase. >> at that point in time for what it is worth in 2016, how confident do you feel that it was nothing but a russian front? >> i think the world should have known because we had some of the evidence out there, how did they get the dnc e-mails when it was kored at t covered at the print media. everybody figured the hack was probably from a state entity,

probably from russia, and julian assange and his coordination with russia, but the world saw that these hacked e-mails that the russian government got were released by wikileaks. they picked wikileaks but i'm sure if they picked nbc we would not be accused of being come police -- cobased on the e-mail and text conversations that we now know that roger san antonio ha -- stone had, he had knowledge of it. >> he is very specific about

what he says wikileaks did and didn't do. it is almost like he was more careful with us than with congress. >> he was more careful with you than with congress. he flat out lied to congress and only sort of lied to you. >> i wonder if he got better or if he is figuring out his story. >> not clear, but where did go in order to find out what he really did in his e-mails and text messages. criminals are not careful in the end because they cannot keep up with their lives, and where do prosecutors look over and over again? that is where you find the truth. >> it could have been a great pun. carroll, chuck, evelyn, anna, thank you we're going to dig into the political fallout of the indictment and the presidential cave all on the same day. of course roger stone is a fan

of the "godfather" movies and of course there is a reference to the film in his indictment. he would have it no other way. st he would have it no other way. -morning. -morning. -what do we got? -keep an eye on that branch. might get windy. have a good shift. fire pit. last use -- 0600. i'd stay close. morning. ♪ get ready to switch. protected by flo. should say, "protected by alan and jamie." -right? -should it? when you bundle home and auto... run, alan! ...you get more than just savings. you get 'round-the-clock protection. ...you get more than just savings. our grandparents checked zero times a day. times change. eyes haven't. that's why there's ocuvite. screen light... sunlight... longer hours... eyes today are stressed. but ocuvite has vital nutrients... ...to help protect them. ocuvite. eye nutrition for today. little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats moderate to severe

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"green book" is now nominated for five academy awards. ok, here's the deal. that was a good time. including... that's good. it's perfect. so again, using "para," you're talking about something una mesa para dos personas. that is for someone. pretty good.

could listening to audible inspire you to start something new? download audible and listen for a change. welcome back, you probably predicted this one. tonight i'm obsessed with roger stone and "the godfather two." stone urged person two to

confirm what stone previously testified too. also, stone responded stonewall it, plead the fifth, anything to save the plan. and then this gem, on multioccasions, stone told person two that person two should do a frank pentangeli in front of the house committee to stick to the story. frank, under threats from another family shocks congress by testifying that he did you want have damaging information that congress knows he has. >> you are contradicting a sworn

statement that you previously made to me. i ask you again sir, here, now, under oath, were you at any time a member of a crime organization headed by michael corleoni. >> i don't know nothing about that. >> the story doesn't end well for franky five angels. as for roger stone, we'll see what happens. as for roger stone, we'll see what happens ] ♪ [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪

welcome back, as we said earlier, president trump has had a pretty bad day. first his long time associate is indicted and then he makes a massive cave on his border wall. >> i'm very proud to announce today that we reached a deal to end the shut down and reopen the federal government. as everyone knows i have a very powerful alternative that i didn't want to use at this time. >> it gets the government temporarily reopened but it doesn't get him any money for his wall. so the longest shut down in american history appears to be coming to an end without a wall and without any real progress from where we were when the shut down begun. it is the very same deal that the president rejected before

the shut down started. a democratic strategist and danielle plecka. and the president took -- when did -- everybody said the president sort of felt the need that he had to end this thing and that there is speculation that stone did it. speculation it was frustration over the faa, what's your reporting tell you. >> the air went out of this to the extent that he had any le raj at all like two weeks ago. we have been getting from there to hear ever since. the things that happened today that came on top of, you know, a building tsa disaster. there was a ground stop in delays at la guardia today.

there was tsa agents calling in sick. things were falling apart, things were breaking. and there was a republican revolt that has been in slow motion for days that picked up a lot of steam last night. trump didn't have anywhere to go and he was told he didn't have anywhere to go. he was told that by erin in the white house. he was starting to hear it from his friends and cronies. >> and this is a gigantic opening shot victory for nancy pelosi. it was a starring contest, who is in charge of this relationship and dividing governme government. >> trump is like the child that has to touch the stove, everyone warned him that it is hot.

but i want to give you a panic number. trump's reelect now, the closest ever percent of wisconsin they think that shutting down the wall is a bad idea. he is losing that sort in the heartland. his job, there was like two points between his job approval and percentage of votes in some of these states. if it continues to drop or hold steady, this is a problem for every republican in the battleground state running. i had a republican very close to the president say for system reas some reason he said this is a read my lips moment. he didn't have to make this his read my lips promise. >> he is apparently not the world's greatest negotiator. he told me that he was. >> you're like losing your voice

because of it. >> but look for trump, the biggest problem is the story is not over, he did not cotterize this wound. it was great for her to be strengthenned in the somewhat rebellious caucus. she could have said no. will she be able to say yes? >> they're doing a crazy thing in congress, they're trying to follow strixs on how a bill becomes a law. the senate has a bill, and the house as a bill, and i guess if you're the president at this point, you're only is to hope that works. >> and that if he doesn't he can blame them.

that's not how deals get done any more. the other thing that was remarkable about today is the president came out in the road carden and he took credit for saving something that he created and i think that at this point in his presidency people see through that. the people that you were just talking about and then his base is completely unhappy with this, and then it gets worse, and where does this go? >> if you're a senate republican, and you stood by him, and then you urn around and you take the tame deal, by the way now i have to answer roger stone questions? when do republicans go -- you were really making this more difficult. >> the only thing they have going for them is they're now in a place that many of their own

constituents wanted. he had no leverage to begin with and that means that republicans don't have a lot of leverage going into this three week trying to figure out borger security. i agree that nancy pelosi is in a more difficult spot than she was while trump owns this entire debacle, but i don't think that congressional republicans have a great deal date to go with this eerd. >> when is the republican pry pair date? that is when they they have a challenge nap is a whole year. the truth of the matter is chuck they're still afraid of trump and the base for as bad as his

numbers have collapsed with h d hardcore base republicans. he is still their guy. and this seems to be the real guys. you have this strong minority in the 40th that want a wall. you have somewhere in the mid 50s that don't want a wall, wra does a compromise look like? >> there is a great deal to be had here. a gang of eight? >> i'm not saying they're going to have it, but there is a great deal to be had here. which he get his wall money, he can get that, he can give daca permanently, and i think that is something they are willing to give, and other fixes to

immigration. the question is will they ever get there? >> they're going to lose their minds. >> he was getting grief from his base. >> they will take that, won't they? >> i agree, but there will be heck to pay if they take that. >> i guess the question is what will the president do next. there was a scene when he didn't take his questions. he had the long coast on today and he turned around and walked away and it was the most circumstantially defeated i have seen him. he cares about visuals, what will be his show of strength moment? >> i would say until he signs something, i think everyone may want to just stick around. we have seen him say something and then backtrack.

if he really doesn't like the coverage, it's not a lock with this president. >> hey, president, you won today. don't go shut down the government. >> up next, the race to 2020 is just starting to heat up and we have a drop out. and we have a drop out. if your moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's symptoms are holding you back, and your current treatment hasn't worked well enough

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making some people stay home when they don't want to, making others show up without pay, it's mind boggling, it's shortsighted and it's unfair. it takes a lot to get me angry, but i'm about as angry as i have been in a long, long time. >> an incredible decision today by the director of the fbi. obviously, he was worried about moral with rank and file. that was something else. i'm curious, do you think congress, in the next three weeks will pass something? they have protected social security for shut downs and military pay. it's about time to protect federal government worker's pay from the shutdowns. do you think they will do that in the next three weeks? that was powerful? >> i think they will. you could do more carveouts without the entire affected, you know --

>> what is the logic? if you do that, why? for political reasons. >> right. it's like deciding which ones are essential and which are not each time we have a shutdown. there are lasting effects, which is the larger question. will it lead to anything different? will it lead to changes? not for things to change today. they missed a second paycheck today. that's how an fbi agent gets angry, his voice gets really, really serious. >> i kind of believe that. i want my fbi agents to be like chuck rosenberg when he's happy or mad, i'm not sure. i like that. >> if they were to do a carveout or say government workers are excluded from the shutdown, what would the incentive be to open up the government? part of the reason they are in

the position they are is stories piling up about government workers not getting paid. you take that away and we could wind up in something that -- >> wind up in a place? >> no incentive to open up the government. >> we are going to wind up in a place where we keep the government open. is that a bad thing? sorry. >> we view this for political conversation. there's been gamesman ship around it. isn't this something that should embarrass the heck out of every single member of congress regardless of party? you can't do your job. maybe you should be shut down. >> i'm going to agree with you and be all in with you. >> love it. >> i'm going to go a step further. the tip of the founder fathers was not to have a king. what we are seeing happen in the senate -- look, mitch mcconnell, at some point, you have to let

the senators vote. you can't see -- >> which he did yesterday. >> you can't give that much power to the president. the president shouldn't be able to hold the entire government hostage. that's not how democracy works. at some point, you say you know what? we are not going to shut down because a president throws a temper tantrum. >> it's not just about trump, it's all of them. they don't pass bills. the fact is, they don't do their job. whether it's mitch mcconnell or nancy pelosi, they don't do their job. if you want to call a president imperial, obama, trump, they have to do it. >> one of the things we saw, we have a poll coming out sunday. what's interesting, trump gets more blame than the democrats, pretty consistent. there's an underlying anxiety/anger with the entire system, left and right. it's a fascinating -- a couple

more shutdowns and we may have a mcchrome moment in this country. both parties get shellacked. >> i mean, you can tell that some version of that anxiety was animating republicans. i mean, it's been an issue for democrats all along. but, they didn't have to own it. the republicans did. for sure, i mean, for all the fluster about, oh, the government is broken, no one will notice it, we heard some at the beginning. republican members of congress were told by constituents this was stupid and they needed to fix it. >> it's the best pr government workers had, that donald trump could make america love government workers again. >> we learned all kind of things they are doing but we also learned how significant what we do, on certain levels, flying

around on airplanes is critical to having government workers. >> guess what, folks? government is complicated. you can't run it like a business. thank you. that's all for tonight. we'll be back with more on monday. we'll see you then. next is ari melber, take it away. >> an historic day in the mueller probe and the trump era. this story began with an early morning raid and arrest of his longest serving aide for obstruction and tampering to get clinton's e-mails. serious charges. unlike every other trump associate indicted by mueller, stone wasn't quiet. he came out to defiantly address the charges against him, claiming his innocence and this scene captivated