this is "up. i'm david gura president trump blinked. and i want to be clear that's what happened. i am very proud to announce today that we are reached a deal

to end the shutdown and reopen the federal government >> political theater in washington, al fresco in the rose garden was a brief distraction of the surface taking place in ft. lauderdale, florida. mueller, arrest me >> early friday morning, roger stone was arrested, charged with seven counts of lying to congress, obstruction and witness tampering, tied to a cover-up of an effort to get dirt on former secretary of state hillary clinton. any additional releases and what other damaging information organization one had regarding the clinton campaign stone thereafter told the trump campaign about potential future releases of damaging material by organization one organization one refers to wikileaks which roger stone mentioned in the same breath as october surprise in august of

2016 >> actually communicated with assange. i believe the next tranche of the documents pertain to the clinton foundation, but there's no telling what the october surprise may be. >> and wikileaks became something candidate donald trump eagerly and enthusiastically promoted on the campaign trail in the final stretch enlisting help from russia >> russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. i think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press >> president trump caved yesterday to end the government shutdown, but his long time confident roger stone made it clear that is not something he is prepared to do. recall roger stone's rules, attack, attack, attack, never defend, admit nothing and deny everything there were hundreds of reporters

and cameras on the steps, but roger stone wasspeaking to one man. >> there is no circumstance whatsoever under which i will bear false witness against the president nor will i make up lies to ease the pressure on myself >> up with me this morning, mimi roka, mark mckinnen, leah wright rigura and phillipe ryaness, former deputy assistant secretary of state mimi, let me start with you. we have talked in the past, you and i, about the part in dangle. this is some evolution of that you had roger stone there talking about how he plans to proceed. as i said, i think to an audience of one. >> yeah. that's clearly what he's angling for because he doesn't have a lot of options right now this document against him, we

all have been talking for the past 24 hours about the big picture and what does this mean in terms of collusion. roger stone, though, for him this means a rock solid case of obstruction against him. so he can say -- i think ate at one point he said he was going to go to trial he can go to trial, but he's going to get convicted so he's either going to trial, he's pleading guilty or he's getting a pardon there's not a lot of options for him. and i don't see him, you know, accepting responsibility and pleading guilty. i think a trial will be long and costly and he must, on some level or some lawyer must hopefully be telling him that this is a very strong case so a pardon is really, you know, where he's going on be looking at >> how did you interpret what you saw yesterday? you were down in d.c., i know, for the rose garden event. but as you watched one unfold in the earlier half of the day, when you saw roger stone come out of that korm wearing that blue polo shirt, flashing the vs

for victory, what does that say to you about who he is >> it says everything about roger stone. i think he loved this moment, he loves being in the spotlight even if he's being indicted. and i have a different view of the long-term play here for stone. the classic play was to take credit in the end, i think he will be prosecuted and put in prison for crimes of not telling the truth and witness tampering, perhaps, but maybe nothing to the primary crime of collusion but i think roger stone thinks put me in prison, i'll either get pardoned or i'll be the g. gourd yn liddy of this administration >> i want to bring in michael kaputa now michael, you were talk, gabe sherman of "vanity fair" about roger stone day. this was a holiday to which

roger stone was looking forward. i don't know how happily, but he thought this might happen. given that, how did it play out to what you thought might happen >> we've been going through this fire drill, roger and i and rogers that went on thursday after thursday after thursday to the point where every friday was roger stone day. and months and months. so after going through this fire drill several times, yesterday roger wab ready. the families are bolted down, the lawyers are bolted down. so if you think roger was surprised, take a close look at those photos he's clean shaven. let me tell you something, he wasn't up in the morning at 6:00 in the morning shaving this is going to go forward now with roger proch his innocence

they've been after him for two years. >> michael, hi clearly you and roger are close so i'm not going to ask you anything about that. but you have a great vantage point of the campaign. i remember when you came out of your day talking to robert mueller. do you honestly believe that no one told donald trump about this famous trump tower meeting that involved jared kushner and donald jr. and paul manafort either the day of the meeting, the day before or the day after? i'm curious what you're -- you're not a participant in that meeting. i'm curious what your thinking is >> i appreciate the question i wasn't around, as you said, and i was actually, at that time, in cleveland as head of communications for the president's operation at the convention but i can tell thaw in my time

with president trump, in the years leading up to his presidential run, there was no time i would tell him something that was speculation or something that i didn't think was relevant to the campaign if somebody came to me and offered information that ended up being a big bust like that meeting was, i wouldn't have bothered the president with it as a candidate so if the president says nobody told him, i believe the president. i know people who oppose him find that hard to believe, but i'm going to go with the president's statement here >> when you look at this statement, i have a broader question just about whether or not roger stone could have been doing this and candidate donald trump would have been unaware. when you look at the size of the campaign organization and who knew what, is it at all believable that this could have been happening and donald trump didn't know about it >> i would think almost certainly. roger was -- left the campaign in late 2015, long before i joined it. i joined in late november as the

state of new york primary director and roger was gone when i was there and he was persona non grata because corey lewandowski was not in charge and made sure roger was not involved and when i ariefrdz, i was told by paul manafort, by the way, who was an old friend of roger stone's that i needed to stay away from roger stone. the oinl contact that i believe -- and i don't know everything, but the only contact roger had in the campaign was with the president himself and the president was making those calls. as somebody who has been on the receiving end of those calls, the president does most of the talking. so i think it's entirely possible and roger stone denies that he ever spoke about wikileaks with the president i believe roger stone on this. >> if michael stone was a lawyer, he would be better off with michael than with rudy

gee giuliani >> if that's true that stone was cut out of it, when all of these allegations came out about stone, why wouldn't trump have come out and said had nothing to do with him after he left my campaign as opposed to completely embracing him and saying what a great guy, i'm there for him. >> i think it has a lot to do with -- roger stone introduced me to the president in 1988 and i overheard him talking with the president about running for president in the future. that is 1988 at the republican convention in new orleans. they've known each other for many, many years they've been on again and off again close friends. i think the president looks at roger stone as a friend, a friend in the jackpot of an investigation that he believes is bogus i don't think this has a lot to

do with the president's affection for him. >> i think a lot of people might be wondering why, when you look at this campaign, whether there were so many individuals associated with it who had experience in and for russia there was carter page, paul manafort, as well. how do you explain that, the magnetism to folks like you who had russia experience to the campaign in its earliest days? >> i was sent to russia by the clinton administration to meddle in russia's elections. so i was there at the behest of an entirely different president. and i want to note that there were 25 democrats registered to lobby on behalf of the kremlin and kremlin associated companies during the obama administration. a lot of americans from both parties are completely engaged with russia ever since the wall came down. that is the way it goes.

they're engaged with countries around the world and they register to lobby because it's lucrative kind of career move. so democrats and republicans along the way. but also, at the same time, i spent seven years there. i probably have more contact with russians than all the people in trump tower combined because i lived there. my daughter is russian, my ex-wife is russian today i'm married to a ukrainian woman. my mother-in-law is in the house visiting us and we speak russian in our home. the fact of the matter is, where i sit here in miami beach, there are 300,000 russian immigrants here outside of new york city and in the new york city environments, over a half million. russians are an incident you gral part of the united states and this xenophobic attack on russians just because it's a political spin, i think, is going to end up biting us in the backside >> they got their money's worth. >> michael, thank you very much for joining us this morning.

last i want to ask you about an entry. let's take a listen to what roger stone had to say about bob mueller and his investigation. >> the entire exchange takes place, i believe, between august 15th and september 9th many weeks after -- >> a prosecutor with unbridled power and no constitutional checks on him. this charade has to end. >> was the purpose of this inquiry if not to remove the president, to undo the results of the last election i'm sorry, that makes watergate look like small potatoes >> i don't know if that was in prime meets or where, but in some dark restaurant explain his outlook on this. i was struck how there were supporters of roger stone there.

explain just his theory of the investigation and how he fits into it. >> first of all, he's the michelangelo of conspiracy theories >> yeah. >> so one of the clips we had with interviews we did with roger stone was at the russian tea room where he famously said to us, and this was in october of 2016 that said this election is not over until we say it's over which was very cryptic at the time and foreshadowing, as well. but, again, roger's hole -- i knew him from the 1980s when i worked for the casino association. he was representing donald trump. it's a tangled web, of course, but you look at all the players in that orbit, it's roger stone, it's paul manafort it's an interesting cast of characters, which is interesting because if you were working in the 2016 presidential campaign, your a republican operative, you

had 17 interviews first before you went he to donald trump. you started with jeb bush, got to marco rubio, by the time you got to donald trump -- you can imagine the caliber of folks that get pulled in like roger stone who, by the way, said when barbara bush died after she died that was was a raging alcoholic, headed for hell and that if they cremated her body, it would burn for three days there you go >> he's in the middle of a lawsuit against wikileaks for that massive e-mail dump in 2016, dnc chairman tom perez is going to join us on "up. coming up, why some conservatives are not buying the words of the president saying the concession to end he the shutdown is not a cave >> you have to call it as it is. i mean, she has just whipped the president of the united states you're talking about the woman who is now the queen of the hill, partner. always a catch. like somehow you wind up getting less.

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z. welcome back shortly after president trump's abrupt retreat announcing an engine to the longest government shutdown in history, chuck schumer and nancy pelosi presented a united front >> the unity of our two caucuses really worked. >> our unity is our power and that is what maybe the president underestimated but on the right, conservative plead media blasted trump for caving this rare moment of truth from trump supporter lou dobbs last night. >> she has just whipped the president of the united states you've got to call it as it is this president said it was going to be conditional border security building that wall and he just reversed himself

that is a victory for nancy pelosi it will be perceived as such on every television monitor and screen in the country. and to deny it is to try to escape from reality. >> that was on business on fox news sean hannity came to his defense. >> anyone out there, by the way, thinking president trump caved today, you don't really know the donald trump i know. he right now holds all the cards. he will secure the border one way or another >> if you're curious what cards trump has left to play, jesse waters showed his hand yesterday. >> he has to get something out of an emergency declaration and if he doesn't get something done there, he has to flip the house in 2020. >> do you think he will do a national emergency declaration >> yeah. because i think they're still too far apart so he has to do the national security emergency. >> lep me understand the cacophony there. how is the president going to interpret that we thought all along during this

shutdown he was listen to go ann coulter, sean hannity. how does that effect what's going to happen in three weeks' time >> so we know the president is obsessed with media. he wake yous up in the morning, he has media he goes to bed, he has media we know he tapes media he's going to be watching these things carefully, he's going to take into account these things he cares very deeply about how people see him for a lot of reasons this is a poch layerty conseft for donald trump how much do you like me. and so as we begin to see them schism emerge, we're starting to see you fault lines develop on those who think trump walks on water. then there are trump supporters who believe trump is great so long as he gives us a wall

but it's bad when donald trump has lost lou dobbs so one thing i think we all should consider, even though donald trump has caved, we may see, particularly as he reacts to his base, we may see a ramping up of expect ages on his part and this move to do something even more dramatic >> i can it's likely to be more dramatic because he's being humiliated right now and what he can't stand is being perceived as a loser >> you were in the rose garden yesterday and it was somber. there was the clapping on the side, a lot of waiting to see what was going to happen

>> he felt like a shrunken president. what this portends for three weeks is something much worse. he needs to have a win in order to get out of this mess and i think the only way to do that is to declare a -- >> that seems inevitable >> i have to take issue trump voters accuse of of not reading enough pt so the last week, i confined myself to one credible news source i've only been reading donald trump's tweets this week this guy is not going to cave. he's nuts, obviously i'm being facetious. he has caved in every single way. and i think it shows when you show dobbs and coulter, the real fissure in the republican party,

his base is not ann coulter, it is not lou dobbs the way you know that is his base never criticizes. if you even -- if you're a 99% trumper, you are not a trumper to them. and this is a dynamic that's been going on for two years. it's been republican on republican violence with the exception of the two cord picks and taxes and some conservative stuff like regulations and i think that's going to continue what's interesting is that you have the bulk of the 33 or 34 seats up in the senate being republican and, boy, did mitch mcconnell mishandle this you hear stories about how the caucus is pointing fingers at each other and at him and it's questionable how long can they keep this up can these guys keep their seats. on the one hand, if they're shutting down the government, people are falling out of the sky and on the other hand, they might pick them. >> the end game here -- make the base happy >> yeah. >> he can do anything. he can deport his base he can take his 33% of americans

and they would say he's a genius there is no keeping him happy. there is no keeping them happy they're happy. they were happy the day he was elected. he delivered everything. he unleashed them. he got them out of political correctness jail they can say and do whatever they want. the rest of this is great. he can talk his way out of anything >> mark says he thinks the end game is going to be this national emergency how sure a thing is that we talked about that being an option he has at his disposal. what obstacles is he likely to encounter if he does that? >> the courts. this is not a legitimate use of that power >> but has it been tested like this >> it's -- no. i mean, there's only been one other time -- >> we've said that many times about this president and executive power. >> right but i think it's very clear and other people like neal catiel who are experts on this particular area, i think, have said it's clear that the courts are going to push back on that and, i mean, you don't really

need to be a lawyer to figure out why, though, even. under these circumstances, i mean, they are talking for months about a, quote, national emergency. it's not an emergency if you can drag it out for that long and go on cable tv and talk about it as, well, he's not getting what he wants, so we're going to unleash that national emergency power. i mean, it's not a policy making device it should not be and i really think even a conservative court is going to push back on that being used in that way because it has such damaging potential it really is the slippery slope. >> if i were him, i would have declared the emergency weeks ago. for two reasons. yes, mimi is 100% thright that this is wrong, but he will lie the issue is not the border. it's that we're compromising our security at the board were we're compromising air travel and i

blame the democrats. i have no choice but to force it open and then we'll talk about boarders the question is why this has gone on weeks. coming up, new accusations from michael cohen why he says president trump and rudy giuliani are using mob-like tactics to threaten him. >> i figure i can explain it to st. peter. he will be on my side because i am, soever -- i don't think as a lawyer i ever said anything that's untruthful. you know things are going great when your lawyer is already prepping hisrg aument to stay out of hell. ♪ carla is living with metastatic breast cancer, which is breast cancer that has spread to other parts of her body. she's also taking prescription ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor, which is for postmenopausal women with hormone receptor-positive her2- metastatic breast cancer as the first hormonal based therapy.

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a month from now, this iowa big shot is going to give you what you want. >> too late. they start shooting in a week. >> i'm going to make an offer he can't refuse >> giving you guys a break from the godfather 2 clips we watched yesterday. michael cohen arguing president trump and rudy giuliani have employed mob-like tactics against him and his family mark asked adam about the postponement >> why is he now suddenly refusing to come talk? >> well, i think he's generally scared the president has essentially

said that his father-in-law should be investigated rudy giuliani has said his father should be investigated. these are tactics you would expect from the mafia, not from the president of the united states >> if you do something wrong, i'm going on come at you, grab you by the neck and i'm not going to let you go until i'm finished there's been a lot of talk about when it's intimidation, the rhetoric we've all heard here. >> well, i think they're sort of two different questions, actually so i think what trump is doing and giuliani, frankly, are 100% mob tactics. >> no question >> no question right out of the playbook. and part of it is trump reminds me, again, of a mob boss in the sense that what he's saying, he's not being as

explicit as michael cohen was. cohen is threatening physical harm trump is using intimidation. it's more subtle ite not saying i'm going to hurt the father-in-law. it's saying, you know, let's somebody take a look at this guy. so it's insinuating that there's criminal behavior on the part of the father-in-law, the department of justice, which i, the president, have power over, i'm sending them a message it's sending a message to cohen. and that's how the mob works for the most part, the higher level people which trump is more analogous to, trump is the -- the mob boss doesn't have to be explicit it's the power of the boss he can say two words, you know, i'll -- i'll talk to you later or watch your father or, you know, just something very subtle and it means so much because of who it's coming from and i think about comey and

other people have talked about trump being in this mafia culture, this is a great example of that. the second issue, though, about whether cohen is indeed afraid, i do believe this has triggered or is enhancing a fear that he probably, you know, already felt because you don't even need someone to tell you that, hey, if you're going to be a witness against the president of the united states, everyone in your family is going to be under a microscope i don't know anything about what his father-in-law has or hasn't done, but sounds like there might be some issues there but i don't think that's the only reason cohen isn't testifying so i think it's a factor, but not the only factor. i think it's complicated, what he's trying to do this dance here of cooperating with different people at one time he can get himself into more trouble. so i think it's a factor, but not the only factor. i think that isn't relevant, though, to our analysis of the fact that i think trump is, indeed, trying to tamper with a witness here >> mark, you're nodding and i'm

thinking to the degree this is arlene, there's an e-mail in there, roger stone writing to person two, you're a rat, a stooler. you back stab your friends, run your mouth my lawyers are die to go rip you to shreds >> you get the whole culture of the trump organization and people, which is not far removed from the godfather but there's no lack of irony that michael cohen is now complaining about intimidation he was trump's key intimidator for years. that was his job i'm skeptical about this notion of that's why he's evading the hearing. it's not like testifying is going to enhance that exposure my question is why was he testifying in the first place? there's not really anything he can say because he's in the middle of a -- what was he going to say that he can talk about that mueller has that's sensitive to the case? i don't really understand the

whole kabuki of this thing >> parallelly an politically and legally, it doesn't seem like he can add anything the mob boss can give two words and that person is gone. but it was only two months ago that someone sent more than a dozen pipe bombs to former elected officials, current officials, all because donald trump says something out loud. he says maxine waters is an enemy of the people. he says that about hillary clinton. and boy, they're getting pipe bombs. so his words have consequences his words might have violent consequences yesterday for those who follow the conspiracy of pizza gate, someone went back to the pizza store and tried to light it on fire these people are feeding off a negativity they're feeding off a hate that he is either throwing gasoline on or doing nothing about. >> the last word to you just about where this leaves us if this is what our political discourse has become >> at this point, it's obvious donald trump is a bully.

and the question is what happens when a bully is running the white house, but not only that, the bully is running his entire, you know, enterprise as a criminal enterprise who his entire history has been running this industry, running his business with for rules, for transparency, for, you know, compassion which is an interesting choice with it comes to donald trump. so i think what we see here, again, is that he's going to continue in this pattern, regardless of, you know, the intentions of his formerly loyal subjects for his loyal, you know, lieutenants for whatever reason for testifying for getting out of things, getting out of saying things but we're going to continue to see the ramping up of this kind of language, this kind of engagement and a complete disregard for the rule of law. that's just how it's going to work >> we'll leave it there. coming up, he calls donald trump an active participant in russia's attempts to hi jack the

election tom perez is going to join us next ♪ ♪ memories. what we deliver by delivering.

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welcome back to "up. i'm david gura the dissemination of tens of thousands of e-mails from the dnc, this month the dnc filed a

alleging additional meddling the tom perez tweeted this yesterday, the trump campaign was a willing and active participant in a conspiracy are russia and wikileaks to influence the 2016 election. there are more conspirators yet to be named and at least one of them is donald trump >> i can't see i was surprised by what happened, david, simply because we've known for some time roger stone's involvement you may recall the indictments summer of last year arising from the dnc hack and it explicitly referenced -- it different reference stone by name, but everyone knew it was stone, the contacts he had with the russian military

intelligence services. so we've known for this some time that stone was a bridge to wikileaks, he's the inner circle and this is again, yesterday's indictment is further collaboration. there were people from the trump administration and elsewhere who criticized it as a witch-hunt. it's start to go look pretty smart and i take no pride in that this was an attack on our democracy. it wasn't simply an attack on the dnc. and you see -- you just take a step back, the number of people that have now been ensnared in this who are part of the trump inner circle and you've talked a lot about photograph 12 of the indictment. and the question presented, when you read this, a senior trump campaign official was directed to contact stone so you just do an org chart.

who could possibly -- there's a very small universe of people who could possibly be telling a senior trump campaign official what to do so, again, i'm not surprised by what we saw yesterday. this has been a methodical investigation by the mueller team we have taken great pains not to interfere. we have not sought discovery we understand that the first and foremost thing that has to happen is that robert mueller needs to do his job. i am glad that we filed this because we need to make sure that justice is served in an article 3 court. >> tom, i know your lawsuit from the 2016 election was dismissed. i'm wondering if you have any more hope in this lawsuit in what you think might come next as you just said, we know exactly what happened. now it's what should happen about it

the democratic caucus is pretty split. especially the newer members, the freshmen members seem to be reluctant to use the impeachment word but last night, we saw speaker pelosi issue a very, very strong statement as a result of the mueller indictments. and it seems like she's getting there. >> let me correct something you said our lawsuit was not dismissed. we filed a lawsuit in april you of last year we've filed two amended complaints since and the lawsuit is under way in the southern district of new york so that lawsuit is continuing. >> this is why i'm not a reporter >> so i just want to correct the record on that and we -- again, our amended complaints have pointed out that their attacks on the dnc continue they did not abate and it should come as a surprise to no one that the attacks continue because there were no repercussions to the impeachment questions. >> the second part of phillipe's question >> sure. i think that -- i spent over a decade at the department of

justice. and i started under president george herbert walker bush as a career prosecutor. i think it's really important to law that process to run its course and for director mueller to do its job, which is why we haven't filed our lawsuit, we haven't wanted to get in the way of that investigation in any way, shape or form. at the same time, i have great confidence in the judiciary committee chair, the intelligence committee chair, in chairman cummings, as well that they understand that they have an important oversight responsibility and they're areaing that out in a responsible way, but we also have to let the mueller investigation run its course i think that's going to happen >> leah, go ahead. >> sure. so i'm really interested in what comes next for the democrats there are a couple of things that come out after the

shutdown, including that, you know, donald trump's popularity among independents are a crucial demographic in terms of the political process has plummeted. and then also two things, we know that speaker pelosi was instrumental in pushing back and challenging as part of this shutdown process, but also that, really, it's workers, right, workers and laborers, including, you know, flight attendants, tsa agents, air traffic controllers who are instrumental in pushing donald trump in getting him to concede on this demand so what's next in the process? >> we're fighting for workers. i was there in 2013 when ted cruz shut the government down. i stood in front of the department of labor when we reopened and said welcome back and i am sorry that you were put through this this was a hostage taking, plainly and simply and speaker pelosi was spot on to do what she did and what democrats are doing from here and your question is

spot on is over the past two weeks, you've heard no talk from donald trump about what we're going to do to bring down the cost of prescription drugs, no talk about protecting people with pre-existing conditions, there's no talk about making sure that we put workers first he ran for president saying i'm going to have workers back this shutdown stabbed workers in the back, not simply federal workers, but waiters and waitresses here in d.c. and elsewhere. those last 30 days, they weren't serving meals, they weren't able to pay their rent and they're not going to get that back that was unconscionable and unnecessary and what we're doing moving forward as democrats is we are going to continue to fight for the issues that helped us win historic gains in the november election. i'm proud of the folks that are running for president. they are going to talk about the issues how we, again, address health care, how we create jobs that pay a decent wage, how we make sure that we restore our democracy and address this

culture of corruption that is a rot. we cannot allow lying to be normalized we need leaders, not liars and yesterday's indictment is further evidence of the need for leaders. >> tom perez, thank you very much for the time, as always coming up, those house investigations into trump's ties to russia are egg ka lating. speaker pelosi was just asking overnight, what does putin have on donald trump politically, personally or financially? that's next. so again, using "para," you're talking about something that is for someone. pretty good. could listening to audible inspire you to start something new? download audible and listen for a change.

♪ this is "up. i'm david gura house democrats wasting no time putting their power on display the house intelligence committee is working alongside the house financial services committee to probe the trump organization's ties to deutsche bank, while the house oversight committee looks into how the white house granted security clearances to officials with questionable backgrounds. all this comes on the heels of house intelligence chair adam schiff promising to release all transcripts of its russia probe to the special counsel mark, you spent some time on capitol hill this week, talked to councilman schiff we saw in the indictment that brought to bear the house intelligence committee sharing transcripts with bob mueller and his team what's your takeaway about the path forward from the congressional investigation? >> one thing that was clear is it doesn't matter what michael cohen wants to do, adam schiff is going to subpoena him he's already been subpoenaed by the senate side. adam schiff's going to subpoena him. so at the end of the day, they're going to get that.

the other interesting thing to me, and you can jump in on this one. to the question about bob barr, who i have a lot of confidence in -- bill barr, sorry and about whether or not people will see this report ultimately, because that's kind of the one caveat he said in the hearings, otherwise, 98% of what he said could have come from sallyates, i think. but schiff basically was saying, listen, we can subpoena everything we can subpoena all those fbi forms, all of the witnesses. so this story's going to get out one way or another. >> last night, they were saying if there is a fight, he will lead the charge on the senate floor to make sure that report gets out >> we're going to see it, right? >> i think that's right, and that's the power of having people in congress who can do that, right? that just wasn't an option before, but now that we have that, i think that is right, that ultimately, it will get out. you know, i just think it's such a hard question. everyone i think for so long, because there was no oversight going on in congress and we didn't have the power of people who could subpoena a report if they wanted to was just waiting

for mueller, you know. and it was waiting and waiting and waiting. and we're still sort of in that mode and i think what's starting to shift is the idea that we can't just wait for that and i'm saying this as a former prosecutor who does not want anyone to interfere in any way with what mueller is doing, but i think we need to start having some movement on the congressional side. >> and if you look at the intelligence committees on both sides, the chairman of the senate committee, richard burr, he's a republican. he's a trump fan -- >> fellow north carolinian. >> right and at least with that, when he worked with mark warner, the minority leader of that committee, they find a balance what's happened on the house side, devin nunes essentially just completely just neutered house intelligence for the last two years. so, adam schiff is almost starting from scratch. >> yeah, he's playing the retreat. there's going to be a retreat where they come together and set privates leah, to your question to tom perez, your sense of where things going, focusing on chuck

schumer and nancy pelosi and the front they put on the shutdown issue. your sense of where it goes from here. >> i think in particular, in the house, in democrats, they're feeling themselves i mean, they're feeling, one, that they've had a victory, a very clear victory with the public on their side, and with shifting sentiments towards the president. but also, too, that they have an agenda, right? they said this once the new term began, they were going to go full steam ahead and push and push really hard and that's what we're going to see. >> all right, mark mckinnon has put the stenson open road on his -- >> kick it up. >> time to go. >> thanks for joining us catch the season premiere of "the circus" tomorrow night, sunday, 8:00 p.m. eastern time. tomorrow, i'll be joined on set. up next, the man who wrote "the art of the deal" will explain how donald trump failed so miserably in his first real encounter with house speaker nancy pelosi

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that does it for me today. thank you for watching "a.m. joy" with joy reid starts right now. i am falsely accused of making false statements during my testimony to the house intelligence committee that is incorrect. any error i made in my testimony would be both immaterial and