donald trump to get what he wants that america doesn't need. a sanity war that does it for me, thank you for watching, i'll seal you back here tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. eastern for a new life edition of "politics nation. up next "the beat." >> a historic day in the mueller probe and the entire trump era it started with an early morning raid and arrest of roger stone within mueller indicting him for obstruction and witness tampering. this is the first indictment of someone involved, and unlike oth every other associate, he came out to defiantly address the charges against him. and donald trump picked this day to cave on the shut down aagrees

to temporaryly reopen the government without a single dollar for the wall. now tonight we will go through all of this with some of the bex exports available. first, the stone indictment is not like any that we have seen thus far roger stone is not like any of the other people charged and bob mueller knows it, so he has his reasons for blepressing forward stone pressing suggestion quarter million dollar bond, and channelling his own boss richard nickson, waving his arms in a victory sa lute, it is not what he expected, and then he fit in an apparent pardon pun for good measure. >> pardon me >> if you were convicted would the president pardon you

>> the only person i advocated a pardon for is marcus garby >> how strong is your allegiance to trump >> i am one of his oldest friends, a fervant supporter >>man fort was back in court today quietly. now these charges tell a story to anyone else that has been charged. he has seven counts on lying and on tamperings it is a story that bob mueller wants you to know tonight, the lies are

directly related to e-mails that the russians stole the other indicted trump aids face serious charging but not ones linked to those e-mails the crimes are explicitly related to the stealing of those leaked e-mails and mueller charging stone for crimes, this is important, you see it up here, related directly to those leaked e-mails. the indictment spells it out, stone telling senior trump officials that he had information indicating that wikileaksed that document that's would be dangerous to the clinton campaign, and then they started to release the ae mails, and according to bob mueller, a senior trump official, he was directed to exact roger stone

aabout decisional releases that wikileaks had on clinton tonight we don't know who that campaign official is, we don't know who was powerful enough to direct them to stone mueller may certainly know but doesn't say. i can report for you that stone there after told the trump campaign about, according to mueller, potential future releases of damaging material by wikileaks. that looks bad, the narrative there from bob mueller and the speaking indictment is that roger stone lied about efforts to get stolen e-mails from the russians and the trump campaign was in the loop. that is the bad news from them what is the other news that you need to know mueller is not alleging a former election conspiracy or

acknowledging p knowledge by donald trump himself that could benefit the white house, but for the first time that bob mueller is alleging, i can't remember enough, bob mueller is alleging today that the trump campaign was in the loop about roger stone's efforts to get illegally obtained dirt on hillary clinton from wikileaks that went all of the way back to russia, and someone was directing senior campaign officials about staying in that loop, wow. all of this is the kind of thing that a white house that we reported and documented lies a lot, but even the folks that do a lot of lying had to shift today. on how they describe this from no collusion to none that involved the president >> you have the campaign chair who will appear in course today. you have michael cohen, a political advisor and someone in the trump organization, you have gates as well -- >> under indictment on businesses that had nothing to

do with the president, the president did nothing wrong. there was no collusion on his part >> the end of that statement, there was no collusion on his part, not that there was no collusion any more there was no collusion on his part tonight i can tell you that may be the most suspicious denial that we have heard yet from the trump white house. we have a special panel to get into all of this a former associate of roger stone and former trump campaign aid who has been interviewed by the mueller probe. and we asked about what they asked about roger stone. long time republican aide and founder of -- jill, a very significant indictment, what jumps out to zlou. >> there are so many things,

first how detailed the e-mails are in terms of what was said and how foolish it was for roger stone to lie about them. he had to know he created those e-mails and received those e-mails, and he lied saying i have no e-mails that connect me to russia, there are none, he denied all of those things right in front of our eyes now for this indictment. you can't read it and conclude that he is guilt of those climbs when they say he lied about them and the most horrible thing to me is his attempt to intimidate the witness by saying i'm talking your dog >> that person, who we interviewed here, they look at that as a serious tampering to intimidate him out of truthful testimony. with regard to criminal exposure, what passage is most

important to you >> the one that says a senior official pressured rog tore do something, and that that was at the direction of someone above that senior official that they did it so who is that person that is referred to in paragraph 12? that has to be the president, possibly jared kushner, possibly don junior, they could have been high enough up to be a senior campaign official. >> as a prosecutor not everything that is alleged is formally charged as a crime. do you view this as an indictment that is fundamentally about objective activities, or do you view it as obstruction with attempted collusion >> this is on it's face an obstruction indictment, but mueller's mandate is the collusion between the russians and the trump campaign so if we pre there was a quid

pro quo and offer up dirt on hillary clinton in exchange for a promise to reduce or eliminate sanctions, this would be additional overt acts in furtherance of those so they distance themselves, they didn't want their fingerprints on the wrong doing so they use intermediaries, that is how they do that. so the gru clearly has the ability to send out a bunch of e-mails. they could have called that and said that could be evidence of consciousness of guilt >> and seth, again on the law, as a prosecutor, i'm going to get to our other qualified guests what do you think of the passage that he emphasizes that stone was not just gossiping or making

big random requests, but what struck me as so damming is that stone was trying to find certain e-mails on clinton, dating back to 2011, asked for that to be relayed as a question, like a document search to assange, and person two passed that on and there was bcc'ing to make that real >> it certainly doesn't, but it shows proactive coordination, it sows overt acts taken to facility a crime because it is being done at the direction of people within the campaign, potentially the highest levels -- >> you're talking conspiracy >> correct, that is right. and the completion of that conspiracy doesn't need to take place for that to be criminal.

it may have been carried out and successful the lek may have been tampered with, but the efforts is criminal in and of itself. >> bill, i hope you will forgive the analogy but sometimes youf have been like a father to us on a long road trip i ask on behalf of some of us here, are twle yet >> no, i think we need to still see the full scope, but we have come a long way and you put it well at the beginning, the trump campaign was in the loop, that seems to be alleged and established. is it please about that he didn't direct this or he wasn't knowledgeable about the direction by effort to get it, that seems extremely implausible to me, so i will assert that trump was in the loop on the effort to get the russians to

help his election prospects. whether or not trump was enough in the loop to be legally liable, i don't know, and i defer to the lawyers about what the criminal liability would be, but in a prodder sense of politics, i think we know that trump was happy to have russian help, and he knew people be neat hymn, knew that very likely they were in touch directly or indirectly with agents of russia to help the least -- to release the illegally obtained e-mails >> sam, a difficult day for a lot of us around the trump organization they're going closer and closer and now they have roger, michael cohen, manafort, you have wei l

weiselberg, you can see that alodge with the political -- you can tell this is a republican, that the deal that the president accepted today, this is a pretty perilous situation, one that many of us wanted him to avoid, and that is why we were going to try to get him to run on impeachment at the midterm >> one thing while i'm with sam, does it look like noose is tightening >> look, i had to follow this closely and i discuss third degree with you often. you can see the narrative they're building and every indictment is closer and closer. i assume through that, i don't want to discuss my grand jury system, but they have a way, the water gate pr watergate prosecutor says it looks like you're getting to watergate here

>> did you know he was making such searching to try to nail clinton in that way. >> no. >> does it make to look to you like your former mentor was trying to collude? >> i think he was. i don't think he did i think he conspired against himself. would he have gone i can't speak for him, but maybe he would have. but once again i don't believe that he did. that does not mean -- >> but you think it adds to the evidence of attempted collusion. >> i think once you look at the indictments, yes we went from russians, russian military, to campaign people, now we have direct contact that's very close here >> one point that jill made, it seems crazy that he lied to something that was so provable, yes, but what if the strategy was better to delay than to

admit everything early on, and if you can drag things out for a year and force the prosecutor to find all of this evidence and go to court and lay in court and stuff, you end up perhaps dragging it through the whole first term and perhaps you will get pardoned stone and manafort are not fools. they are acting to drag this out as much as they can. they're hoping there is not an impeachable moment here, and that trump will make it through his first term and then they get pardoned i think pardon is central to the manafort and stone theory. >> and your analysis there, and you followed it closely, goes to the way that manafort is accused of continuing to try to help him after he claimed he would cooperate and flip and sam you look at the way they did that dramatic morning raid, i'm going to read from their

expe explanation of why they say it was lawfully made, the material related to the indictment would have increased the risk that the defendant, roger stone, would flee and destroy or tamper with evidence do you think that was a credible concern of theirs? >> i don't believe so -- >> you don't think roger would run? >> i don't believe he would run, i'm not going to say he would or would not obstruct justice, what i would say is that aaron lewinsky was in the courtroom in florida today. he interviewed me and the other associates, and i found what they did not include yet in this indictment is as am mouse as somebody who is still skeptical of the case. >> what did they not include that you're saying they could include later? >> i'm saying they have not

included who stone spoke to, even the campaign. they have not, and of course they have not said whether or not he directly had contact, nor do i know if he did. >> but you know how it worked, roger was your mentor, and -- >> hold on, i'll let you finish, and you're speaking to the fact that your reading of this is that they may identify and make actions against that small number of potential people in the future >> i think they're making a case that we have not got to the transition yet we have not got to trump tower moscow i think that this is coming you listen to a individual who was linked to stone and trump saying that who has been in the grand jury room, what does it say to you. number one, why wasn't conspiracy been included

for the fbi to go in unannounced he won't flee, he will enjoy his attention. he was not above destroying the evidence let me say where we go from here in september 2017. >> i am falsely accused of making false statements in my testimony and house intelligence committee. any error they made in my testimony would be both immaterial and without intent.

i will plead not guilty to these charges. ly defeat them in court. i believe this is a politically motivated investigation. >> mueller allege that's stone did not make a single false statement to congress but rather made many false statements including about the documents that he said he didn't have. about the source for those big, big claims that he made as well as requests that he made for fgs from julian assange, and the way that he talked to his self proclaimed, identified intermediary stone maintains that erg had gone well that day >> we had a very frank exchange. i made the case that the accusation that i knew about john powe december tapodeta's ek

was false. what does today's indictment say about the consequences for allegedly misleading your committee? >> i think that many of those who testified before our committee while the republicans were in power were under the impression that they were -- and we're going to see in short order near roger stone is not the only one to lie to congress and they're all consequences it is a felony to lie to congress and we're seeing results of that in this indictment >> your view baited on what we now know to be the trigger that mueller is willing to use is that you knowledge of other individuals that you think by this standard would also be charged? >> yes, i do >> can you name any of them? >> i'm not going to. >> are there more than two >> there may be two. >> about two are any in the president's family >> i understand.

but it is my job to ask. there are things that americans may not want the campaign doing that are not criminal, and it seems mueller is also connecting some of the dots of those things let's say there was attempted collusion. >> wendy: as i put it in, it is not chargeable but it involves americans going out trying to get foreign help on a campaign what congress do about that. one of the things a that we have to do about it is look at 401 c4s. they can educate on politics they can receive untold amounts of money from foreign individuals and it is not reportable i have grave concerns that the russians contributed to the nra

and that is something that we have to explore. but dislclosure has to be a more intense focus by congress so we nowhere money is coming to all of these entities. >> i want to ask another dwhaep is obvious but blaring in 2019 a majority of both houses of congress said let's keep the sanctions on the link to paul manafort when you look more at what we're learning today, do you think is time to go back and press and maybe not have that phil buster? or somehow keep the pressure on? do you think that is a dead issue now? >> i don't think it is a dead issue, certainly the house in a very bipartisan fashion passed a resolution saying sanctions should remain, and we need to now expect the senate to take action >> his relationship is overwhelming, and there is a

relationship between between mr. manuchin >> thank you for coming on the beat, i really appreciate it >> what we're going to thank everyone here, bill crystal, coming up, i'm going to get exactly what the indictment says are his crimes and what he said in public including what he said to me. >> you said you denied it -- >> and we're tracking key figures, most of it is based on witnesses, person one, person two, they said a lot about roger stone on "the beat." >> is he trying to tamper with you as a witness >> i'm not going to get involved in a dispute or debate with roger stone. >> he is afraid i'm going to unload on him. >> stone says he will never unload against president trump we'll get to all of it with the

filmmaker imbedded with roger stone for years. coming up on downtown tuscaloosa... it was as bad as you could imagine it being. (911 operator, muffled) 911, what's your emergency? (overlapping radio calls) there was a lot of people that didn't make it through that day. the first responders were there, and i did make it. thank you is, is nowhere near enough. ♪ heartburn and gas? ♪ fight both fast tums chewy bites with gas relief all in one relief of heartburn and gas ♪ ♪ tum tum tum tums tums chewy bites with gas relief

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amazon prime video so when you say words like... show me best of prime video into this... you'll see awesome stuff like this. discover prime originals like the emmy-winning the marvelous mrs. maisel... tom clancy's jack ryan... and the man in the high castle. all in the same place as your live tv. its all included with your amazon prime membership. that's how xfinity makes tv... simple. easy. awesome. tonight's news on the indictment of roger stone starts with his back channel dealings in 2016. mueller nailed him for crimes after trump's election without seeing what he said and did during the election.

we have been reporting on this from the start from san antonio claiming his allies were intermediaries for wikileaks we got his denial on the record. >> i have never been to russia, i have to contacts in russia, i have no contact with any representatives of the russian state or russian investigation i had no kcontacts with people who may have been a go between without any knowledge. >> that is your denial on the record. >> flat only did -- denial >> his friends say that he was bragging about access to julian assange. even a good defense for stone was looking like it would require admitting that at least he lied in the past. >> maybe the only question left for roger stone if he does ever face investigators, at this

point, is your best defense to tell them i lied about everything instead they're waiting and now dieti indicts him for yes, lies, saying he uses associates to contact wikileaks. anyone can criticize stone, but mueller needs evidence mueller's indictment is build on evidence from two stone associates, person one and person two they're the mueller witnesses jerome coursey and was that collusion of course he told his side here on "the beat." >> you wrote to stone that the word is friend in the embassy plans two more dumps word is sounds like a reference to the word on the street or

things you're hearing. >> i grant that. >> you typically say it before you share a thought that is your own deduction. >> my entire life, my father said jerry when you come up with these deductions that are often right, you will have trouble getting people to believe them >> you have coursey helping stone's defense arguing it was not collusion, maybe just attempts collusion, then coursey hurt tone by backing up what mueller charged today. that he did intend to obstruct and mislead congress >> referee: why of did roger stone want you to do that. >> my lawyer did not want know be held for perjury. he use thad memo in his testimony that sworn testimony >> that is coursey saying that

his friend was committing perjury. but in one of his only tv interviews about this whole saga, person two, flatly denying stone's depiction of him as sharing information from assange to stone >> the allegation is that you are the intermediary between assange and him. >> i have no idea what i said to him, but i did not pass frfgs from julian assange to roger stone. taking stone's request and passing it on for specific e-mails. it doesn't state in the request was acted on, but mueller shows these two men's relationship started to frey charging that stone threatened him to prevent him from cooperate and threatened his pet stone writing

he would "take that dog away from you." stoep is denying these charges today, but the evidence is emerging in realtime and we asked about his motivation for the threats. >> he said i'm going to take that dog away from you ly prove to the world you're a liar, is stone in your view trying to threaten you so you will change your account of his activities in 2016 >> he's afraid i'm going to unload on him. >> we have been watching all of this, it may sound like a movie and that is deliberate the is a self pro claimed dirty trickster. and because this is 2019, this is the second time that reference has come up this very week michael cohen's lawyer invoked it to explain witness tampering last night when they talk about the god father, it is an analogy

when bob mueller puts the godfather in an indictment, she alleging it is a crime shoot it you you actors wick like movie directors this is not a movie, doing, no, it's not everyone should now that now from san antonio to that witness to that witness's dog. and that brings us to the associates that we heard from this week. rush shan witnesses, and many angry with san antonio charged in mueller's new indictment. >> and i think that you're putting your old friend in danger >> he put us all in danger by the way welcome michael. >> the reason that us three are essentially in there is because of stone >> i get that, but i don't -- >> two, roger, number two he is not donald trump okay he is not going to get away with

witness tampering, he should shut un. >> he will not get away with witness tampering, that was sam nunberg former stone associate today, today he charges stone with witness tampering we'll be back in just 30 seconds. better bank starts with looking at something old, and saying, "really?" so capital one is building something completely new. capital one cafes. inviting places with people here to help you, not sell you. and savings and checking accounts with no fees or minimums. because that's how it should be. you can open one from right here or anywhere in 5 minutes. seriously, 5 minutes... this is banking reimagined. what's in your wallet? today i talked again to jerome corsi who said she person one in the stone indictment, i

asked him about this evidence that mueller has against stone in the new indictment and corsi who is a one-time alley of stone says if i was going into a casino and mueller said he had the evidence, i'd bet on mueller. i am joined now my morgan penna, and jason johnson, and jill winebanks. what do you think when you look at all of those stone associates and how much we learned in realtime that now mueller is charging >> i believe mueller completely. the indictment is detailed and specific it quotes from e-mails that make a very clear and compelling case that there was coordination, that there was a conspiracy to get these documents. now we don't know that they originally stole the documents there is no evidence of that, no allegation of that, but that they used them, and there is

such a thing as an accessory after the fact that makes you guilty for having stolen them. >> jason, when you look at how much of this was spilling out into the public view, at the very same time that stone was taking what mueller alleges are illegal extreme measures to prevent that with people that he had some history with. they started out together. i want to play for you something cited basically in today's indictment which is that stone is urging critico. >> why take the fifth when you're a self identified member of the media, why not disclose journalist tick resources. >> i have four or five lawyers that said take the fifth >> he said his lawyer rs told him to do it, which could be

true, but he says stone threatened him into doing it >> stone threatened him into doing it, he made a god father reference. the more modern reference is like proctor from power. he is coordinating all of these different illegal activities, telling this person to lie, finding this bit of information, this contact here and there, and always talking to the people at the talk but just like proctor at some point you're going to get busted there is no way you have this many deals going onand not hav a written record of it and that will catch stone he can front right now and beat his chest and claim i'm not giving up anybody. but when he looks at manafort time or worse i think he will flip on the president or people close to him >> i want you all to stay with me, morgan is here because of the new territory that we're in in the mueller investigation it is undeniable that the roger stone circus has now gun not like any of mueller's prior

defendants they have known about each other far very long time and self described dirty trickster, stone didn't go into hiding, he swaggered to the cameras >> did anyone tell you to contact wikileaks. >> no that is incorrect. >>. >> did you in any way work with the russians to help president trump? >> categorically not, no absolutely not, no >> stone also addressed questions about his relationship with trump >> i am one of his oldest friends, i think he is doing a great job making america great again sflep no circumstance whatsoever under which i will bear false witness against the president if you were convicted would the president pardon you

>> the only person i have advocated a bar dpardon foris m garby. >> look at how this kicked off with roger stone's signature catch phrase >> the only thing i can think of worse than being talked about is not being talked about >> as i have always said is the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. >> he doesn't plan to flip on trump, look at the newest post on stone's instagram last night. proud of my president #maga. and this morning someone authorized on his instagram post "who framed roger stone, not rabbit, and selling "roger stone did nothing wrong" shirts, they say it will fund his defense

we just showed on your documentary, who is out there outside of the white house will he fold >> i they roger has such a reputation as a scoundrel that he embraces that you would think that he would drop a dime on the president in a second if he informs position to say his own skin, but i think that he has a begin win affection free trump it is almost bordering on true love for trump i asked him one time if he considered trump to be one of his closest friends and he said hewasn't worthy of being one o trump's closest friends. he saw himself as subordinate to someone as great as trump. >> do you think it is guilt on an ip securitnsecurity? >> i think it is decades of friendship that he is making him into a

president, and over these many years they have fashioned a true and sincere friendship >> on a scale of one to ten, how effective is roger at getting his message out? >> we saw today that roger is very astute at his messaging >> is that an eight? >> compared to whom, you know? >> compared to trump compared to paul manafort. i asked because i'm going to play a little more of him, bob mueller chose to pick a fight with someone who knows, like trump, to fight big, loud, and rough. the question is is this the end of the probe or the middle, because this is quite a risk even for as talented of a prosecution team as mueller has attemptabled look at what stone does turning it all around on them today. >> at the crack of dawn, 29 fbi agents arrived at my home with

17 vehicles with their lights flashing when they could simply have contacted my attorneys and i would have been more than willing to surrender voluntarily. they terrorized my wife, my dogs -- >> that is the message, like i said, he is the only one to come out and speak on the steps, look at it echoing in this brawl, take a look. >> the most embarrassingly excessive raid on a person's house i have seen -- >> roger san antonio is asleep, armed agents stormed into his home >> heavily armed long guns for someone like roger stone -- >> like the predawn raid that captured gonzalez. >> he knows how to capture the narrative and he is very astute at doing some. he is paefing the ground work for whatever is the outcome to

be favorable to roger. >> lightning round for the panel, percent odds that stone flips on donald trump? >> i think it is unlikely. >> unlikely? >> under 30% >> 50% >> i can't see him in an orange jump suit >> i think there is an 80% chance of flipping on jared and don junior, but not on trump >> very interesting coming from people that have followed this and doing the analysis not with standing what one might think of mr. stone's record. thank you very being part of our special coverage coming up. what will roger stone do next? i have a long time friend of his who has faced a grand jury, a witness in the russia probe. he is back on "the beat" next. tments tailors portfolios to your goals and needs.

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. we are back with our special coverage of the bob mueller indictment of roger stone, and i'm joined by another former trump advisor and michael kap caputo you worked as you said pub luckily for russian interests. you spoke with the mueller team, and you have been a long time friend and ally of roger stone what do you think of these charges against mr. stone tonight? >> i know that when i sat in front of the mueller team, they were very clearly focused on collusion and conspiracy when it came to the questions regarding roger stone. and when i sat with him it was clear they want today make a case for conspiracy and collusion eventually against the president. but what i see in this indictment today is there is no collusion, no conspiracy really in my mind

and he has two guys -- >> do you see attempted collusion? >> do you see attempted collusion, sir >> i don't know. nowhere that anyone has said or believed that coursey had any contact at all with wikileaks. and if roger was attempting to get e-mails and ere reporter was trying to get their hands on them, i understand that. it makes sense that roger who is working for infowars was trying to track the story down. >> then you mentioned personal one, jerry corsi, but person two, it says that roger was looking for specific e-mails, from clinton at specific times, and it was submitted to lawyer, blind copying to him does that look like attempted collusion? >> it looks like attempted and foiled contact

e think we will all of that out today. >> do youf believe that the pressure would get to him and he would ever flip, cooperate, or plea >> you know i always wondered about roger's limitations when it comes to what he can take and the pressure that he can bear up under, and i have seen no end to his boundaries i have seen no boundaries. you know that -- you were talking about the investigation, u every thursday night people were calling him and saying is he okay. cnn is trying to get cameras in his bushes and every friday morning he probably woke up and

pinched himself. he has six months to prepare for this >> thank you for coming on >> my pleasure >> talkup, i have an announcement about person one from the stone indictment next lawsons, carnevales, at their family reunion to show them the family of chevy suvs. all: (cheering) this is the trax, the equinox, and the traverse. looks amazing. so, which one's your favorite? going for the trax, actually. it's more compact. man: the traverse? equinox is jumping out at me. that red is saying, like, "i'm a fun car." if i wanted to be a cool dad, the traverse. i like the blue one. the red one. and i would take that traverse. well, luckily you don't have to agree, because no matter what you want in an suv, chevy has the perfect one for you. man 2: i think you got it covered. woman: i love them all. (laughing) man 2: our grandparents checked zero times a day. times change. eyes haven't. that's why there's ocuvite. screen light... sunlight... longer hours... eyes today are stressed. but ocuvite has vital nutrients... ...to help protect them. ocuvite. eye nutrition for today.

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bob mueller revealed about where he's headed today. monday night we may learn even more because person 1 in this

indictment from mueller today will be on the beat live jerome corsi a key witness a former roger stone associate, stone also called him, quote, judas 12 right after spoke to me earlier this week. we're going to get into everything, all the uestions, nothing off limits jerome corsi monday right here we'll be right back with one more thing ♪ ♪ memories. what we deliver by delivering. but prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory.

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[friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪ one more thing before we go on this abuse night. we're going to have one of those

special podcasts extras for you that goes up this weekend. we're going to show the entire discussion when corsi was speaking out on "the beat," speaking of roger stone and what prosecutors want to know find it sunday whenever you get your podcasts. you can always check out the beat on msnbc. caveman. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening i'm chris matthews in new york what a day it's been we're covering two smashing news stories tonight. both pummeling the trump presidency the arrest of his long-time dirty trickster in the russia probe, roger stone and trump's big cave in the shutdown reopening the federal government without getting a single penny for his prized wall.