a get your questions answered by awesome experts store. it's a now there's one store that connects your life like never before store. the xfinity store is here. and it's simple, easy, awesome. that's a wrap for me on this weekend. stay where you are it's time for "up" with david gura >> this is "up". roger stone, the still newly indicted roger stone is not waiting until court to make his case >> the fbi director who had to have approved this raid should

in my opinion be fired over it. >> his media blitz continues he's continuing to krittize robert mueller's investigation and promises made were not promises kept. >> we're going to have the wall. we're stopping the syrians from coming into this country >> front page story in the washington post today. more than a dozen workers the trump administration properties fired after years on the job because they're undocumented >> i told them i don't have papers i don't speak english and that i was an immigrant they said no, it doesn't matter. >> the reporter who broke that story joins us later this hour when the president wanted someone to negotiate an end of the government shutdown, he went to jarod >> jarod, jarod's become more famous than me >> it's sunday, january 27th roger stone seems willing to talk to anyone with a camera with the hope that someone is

watching >> thank you for your time, mr. stone. >> pardon me >> i said thank you. >> oh, no. i thought that wasn't a question i was stating that to the president. pardon me. >> up this hour, tim o'brien, kristina belltron, eugene scott, and joyce vance. here in new york a professor at the school of law at the university of alabama and msnbc contributor as well. it is no prize candidates make promises they cannot keep. those promises can come back to haunt them here are a few from recent memory >> we are not about to send american boys, nine and 10,000 miles away from home >> read my lips. no new taxes >> as president, i will close kwan tau moe >> president trump's most famous promise was to build a u.s. wall

on the u.s./mexico border. it was the corner stone of his platform >> build that wall build that wall. build that wall. who's going to pay for the wall? 100% >> today the government is open again thanks to a temporary budget deal that's set to expire on february 15th the deal that does not include any new money for a wall says the clock is ticking. this week they'll meet to hash out a plan for border security some of the president's most loyal supporters are not happy he folded on friday which is surely a surprise to a man who once said this >> i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldn't lose any voters >> i want to start with where he are. eugene, there was a piece in the new york times talking about how this shutdown made us realize how reordered the country had become over the 35 days.

it made difficult and ruined the lives of so many people not able to get paychecks and go to the office here we are where there's hope congress is going to do something. paint a picture of what this country looks like now that we're out of the longest shutdown in u.s. history >> this has a base that he actually cannot shoot on fifth avenue and get away with it. one thing i don't think the president realized and this started with the midterm 2018 elections. many people who were on the trump train were getting off we've seen him lose support with white evangelicals, independents these are three groups that helped him get the white house in 2016. i think he slowly began to see the base wasn't with him as a result, republican lawmakers were not as with him if he continued to go down this path, things were only going to get worse. >> we'll get new nbc wall street journal poll on american's attitudes toward the president

in light of the shutdown kristina, you watched all of this unfold. what does it say to you about that relationship with the base, the president saying as recently as that speech on friday in the rose guaarden that he heard from many who thought he was doing the right thing, there was a greater good >> who supported him, but there was massive upheaval against it. it's interesting the wall is kind of nativist performance art. it's the performance of refusal to imagine america as a multirelation shall democracy. his base is deeply invested in this this was a spectacular failure i think two things are interesting. one thing that's interesting is he was simultaneously sort of immas cuelated on the left and right. i wonder how that plays with the right with ann coulter and pelosi i'm interested in how the base -- i think about their base how are they going to manage that the other part is i teach political theory

i think of the point about in the prints where it's said if it better to be loved or feared the idea that -- and he says it's better to be feared because you can maneuver fear, but love is good, but what's really dangerous is hate or contempt. we're in a situation where the base is moving toward the left hate him and his own base is starting to feel a kind of contempt for him. that's dangerous before what you had was a base that loved him and a republican party that feared him. i think now you have an emotional stew that's going to be dangerous for him >> let's move. mcclun could write a book on the last 35 days it's the metaphor of it. you see the republicans embracing the metaphor of the wall you have republican legislators saying we're misinterpreting and reading him too literally on this i ask where the country is in light of the shutdown. where is the wall? wall without the article, if you're going to go with the president in his cabinet

>> i think the wall is the alamo. trump dug into this as a vanity project. he lacked, i think, both the intellectual and policy skills to dig into what he wanted out of the negotiation he was pandering to critics on the right and pander to what he thought his base wanted. when it came down to deliver it, he shout down a functioning government his constituents had to deal with the consequences of that. >> flights backed up irs returns not coming in the mail paychecks not arriving, et cetera >> so glad you bring that up julie, that piece in the times as an incredible line. it says the shutdown revealed unflattering truths about american's finances. even neighbors and friends with steady paychecks teetering on the edge of despair. joyce vance, the indictment of roger stone, the arrest of roger stone, there was this delicious side bar to it

the fact that the fbi acts, the marshals who arrested him at home in florida were doing it in an unpaid capacity you couple that with the video from christopher ray, the head of the fbi, things were beginning to build within the government apparatus at the end of the 35-day period >> it's true one of the points is we exposed this shadow economy of government workers, people who work 40 plus hours a week in white collar jobs living hand to mouth. the irony of seeing the fbi analysts and prosecutors all going into court unpaid doing the government's business while the government didn't have their back was a powerful image. >> eugene, the district gets a bad wrap from the beginning of the shutdown aspersions were cast on people in d.c you grew up there. you've seen the shut downs play out before how was this one different as you looked at lines for food

banks set up last minute >> i have family working in the federal government who were victims of this government shutdown i've also been a reporter in real america one thing i don't think a lot of people realize is there were people directly impacted by this federal government shutdown in places that voted for trump. those were people who said i am not going to vote for this president again, because he's campaigning on promises kept, and it looks like he's not keeping his promises never mind he said that mexico would pay for the wall when you can't feed your own kids because of a decision a leader has made that isn't support bid data or research and causes you more harm than help, you find yourself asking is this the first i want to lead the country as we move forward >> let's talk about the way the president wanted to or wanted to try to end the how he tried to negotiate. you're good of the art of the deal in fact how the president approaches these things we're learning the role jared kushner played

i'll read from another piece in the times. mr. kushner agreed to take the lead when the president asked him to find a way to end the month-long steal mate. the pitch was simple he said he was the person who could land this plane. as the ground stop happened at la guardia, it was clear that was not the case he was not able to land the plane metaphor cal and real. what about his role? you have other reporting from my colleagues about the difficulties he faced getting a security clearance ultimately the white house bestowed it on him your thoughts on his role? what this failure means for him in the pantheon of this administration >> i think the notion that kushner is a seasoned veteran deal maker was laid bare he came into this administration with the family's fortune in sort of play because he overpaid for 666 fifth avenue when his father went to jail.

most of his deal making prowess was from the fact that his lawyer left him money. not that he had the skills then he comes into the administration and he's the person that solves the middle east people that people haven't been able to solve he's going to streamline government he hasn't delivered on either of those first two things he did deliver criminal justice reform but the reason that happened was there was a bipartisan consensus around it. it wasn't because jared was a good deal maker. you saw in this event, one of the signal down falls or black marks on the trump administration, he misread the democrats and nancy pelosi he misread how much his own -- trump's own constituents cared about the wall, and he walked into this blind and ignorant and got burned >> that's one of the reasons i think a lot of people did not want to see jared kushner in the white house. everyone thinks it's solely about bipartisanship they didn't want trump's son in the white house. but the truth is he had not

proven himself to be a senior adviser for a congressman much less the president of the united states and the point about criminal justice reform is important. a lot of people have given him a lot of credit for criminal justice reform it had bipartisan support before trump launched his campaign. >> the stage was so set in that regard for criminal justice reform i thought the most amazing thing was that it was delayed because of kushner's involvement it should have come about sooner it was set to go >> this is another person. an example of privilege thinking it's merit he's convinced he's talented this way in reality, that plane was landing and he happened to be on board. and then he thinks he's the pilot. >> first off the plane >> coming up here, he's put himself front and center since the arrest again and again roger stone trying desperately to reach a man he talked to throughout the campaign. -ah, the old crew! remember when we all used to go to the cafeteria

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this was an egregious overreach by mr. mueller, the fbi director who had to have approved this raid should, in my opinion, be fired over it. i will plead not guilty. i will fight the charges >> roger stone taking on the special counsel saturday mounting his opinion in the court of public opinion. he's flashing the v for victory

sign >> i guess it's an effort to intimidate me, but i am not intimidated. >> the allegation that two campaign officials instructed me or inquired of me about wikileaks is false i suspect that they can induce somebody to say that >> brian on my left has a great column where he says it dispels the notion the trump campaign was not working closely with russia interest during the race. it shows us clearly in graphic form donald trump's associates and his contacts with more than 100 contacts with russians before the inauguration took place. tim, let me return to your column you wrote it shows a full portrait of how actively the trump campaign colluded with the

russian campaign text exchanges, excerpts from e-mails, et cetera how does it change the narrative, this indictment >> i think it makes the narrative rip and grounds it in a fact pattern which mueller has done every step of the way you saw it in the sentencing memos. he's presenting these new narratives each time that lay out a lot of things that some of the stuff has been in the public record some of it hadn't. there's rich detail that shows that the trump campaign wasn't just occasionally bumping up against russian interests. they were actively soliciting information from the russians in order to undermine hillary clint clinton's campaign the russian's interest was sabotaging the 2016 campaign i think this indictment really lays out how stone was a bridge. for whatever bravado roger wants to say, this is a pretty airtight indictment. all of the facts are there one of the things i think is missing from the indictment that is interesting is they didn't

charge him with conspiracy against the u.s. everything in this fact pattern would suggest there's even a more serious charge they could have laid at his feet. why didn't they? i suspect that mueller is keeping it in their back pocket. when they sit down with roger not in front of a camera, they're going to say we have further charges. we can lay at you. do you want to cooperate or not? >> let me wander into speculation. are you worried that's not in this document because of the attorney general who is overseeing this investigation? >> i mean, the other -- i should say all this no one knows what robert mueller knows so this is speculation i think there's people who aren't named in this indictment who i think mueller probably knows what their identity is i think part of this indictment is signal sending. joyce would know better than i i don't worry about the attorney general here i think robert mueller still has a lot of the cards >> joyce, let me turn to you on what we've seen so far, we're

going to talk later about rudy giuliani's approach. when you look at roger stone wearing that t shirt, what he said to reporters outside that fort lauderdale courthouse, what's his game as he approach that's going to happen in court on tuesday and the legal proceedings thereafter >> he doesn't have much legal game to the extent he has a game, he's reaching out to the president asking for a pardonen because that's about all that's left when you have an indictment which is just as airtight as ironclad as this one is. this is false statements obstruction. witness tampering. it's a speaking indictment prosecutors don't usually put all of their evidence into an indictment but here mueller goes to a lot of trouble to tells the narrative so we can understand what's going on and based on what's in this case, t not going away for roger stone >> let's talk about roger stone the man. i'll turn to eugene. he has richard nixon on his

door >> and back. >> a tattoo of him on his back and the nixon foundation distanced themselves from stone. what do you make of the obsession that he has about for lack of a better word, his weirdness and the way that's changing the conversation here >> yeah. i think he's an individual who has proven he wants to be at the table and involved in decision making and help shape culture and politics as we know it the problem is he also perhaps by his own admission and those around him, he's a dirty tricks center those ethics change how he goes about making decisions i remember in the profile of him in the new yorker, he said something along the lines of it's so rare that i'm accused of something that i'm not guilty of like, that's a quote and when you choose people like that to advise you and work with you on your prshl campaign, that gives a bigger idea of how

yourself view yourself and the country and what you would do to it >> kristina, your reaction here we have roger stone in i assume his apartment >> i think what's interesting is the fact he has a fittietish ovr our most criminal president. around trump a group of mostly men who have contempt for the law. only suckers play by the rules when you think about trump and stone, laws never embody values for them law only involves constraint and truly strong people are able to go beyond the law they're able to break the rules. that's a sign of strength and power. it's no wonder these people are always edging, engaged in illegal activity and this is sort of the logic of the people around him there's this sense of there's no respect for the idea of law. it's not unconnected to the fact

that trump is so attracted to authoritarians that's an image of strength of people who exceed that that's why he loves doing edicts and executive action for him rule is beyond law >> help us with the personal history here there are a lot of similarities i suppose between the sitting president and roger stone. how did they come to know each other? >> we were talking before, donald trump is sort of the crypt keeper of 1980s fringe characters and new yorkers roger stone and donald trump were both mentored to a certain extent by roy cohen. roy cohen was a political fixer. he was a communist witch hunter during the 50s and became an influential new york attorney who got things done by legalizing the weapon system when trump came to new york, came into roy cohen's world, roy

walked donald how to get things done in new york and roger was part of that universe i think they were kindred spirits in the capacity that they both liked to break things. they don't care if they break things as long as it's in the service of their own ego or position in the public realm >> roger was one of the first people to suggest that donald trump should run for president. >> in 1987 he convinced him to go to new hampshire and see what would happen trump got up there and everyone flooded the gates. he thought i can do this every now and then and get good press. up next, workers were fired. that's according to new recording in the washington post the reporter who broke that story joins us in a moment i hear it in the background and she's watching too, saying

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new questions this morning about president trump's businesses "the washington post" reporting on undocumented employees at a trump golf course in new york while talks were at a standstill over the president's demand for border wall funding. a dozen employees who spent years working at the course were

fired. one worker said that's about half the club's winter time staff. one of the by lines on the piece belongs to david he joins us now. great to have you with us. great reporting as well. walk us through what happened here remember the piece in the new york times in december focussed on another trump organization property in bed minister, new jersey undocumented immigrants were making beds as the headline proclaimed how is this a continuation of that >> this is a different golf club a few miles away in suburban new york after that new york times story in december revealed that there was some undocumented workers at that club in new jersey, the trump organization came to this club in new york and started -- did an audit then called in as you said about half of all the staff working in the winter time. one by one and said we found problems with your documents these are documents in many cases the workers gave them years before when they were first hired. we found problems, you're illegal. you have to leave.

there were about 12 folks fired. a huge amount of their labor is seasonal there's a bunch of other undocumented workers who left as usual in the fall and will be expecting to come back in the spring and now won't >> the fire wall between the president and the trump organization so much as there is one is just his sons who are running the company. he reached out to eric trump at the trump organization he gave you this statement we are making a broad effort to identify any employee who has given false and fraudulent documents to unlawfully gain employment where identified any individual will be terminated immediately help us understand here the irony. it's laid bare in terms of what you're reporting and what's happening here this was not even two weeks ago this happened. put this in the national dialogue we've been having about immigration in this country. >> well, as people might recall, we had a long government shutdown that was caused by president trump's demand for a border wall. he thinks the situation of the illegal immigrants driving down wages for americans here legally, he thinks that's a dire

crisis, and we need to build a wall on the border at the same time, his golf clubs, his own business, was apparently surviving sort of built on top of the labor of undocumented immigrants. it seems like the trump organization even within its own ranks wasn't going to extreme measures to try to figure out if its own people were here illegally. they didn't enroll themselves in the federal government that lets you check your employee's governments. >> your colleague with me at the table. he has a question for you. >> when we talk about this issue with trump supporters, they often say that these individuals misled trump and misled their employers. is there any evidence to suggest that people at the top of the trump organization knew this was happening? >> that's a good question. certainly they did present fraudulent documents they came into the country often on foot. they got to queens and bought fake social security papers and green cards and presented those

when they got hired. the trump organization says they checked them at the outset and didn't find anything wrong so it's possible the trump organization's point seems to be they didn't know the workers themselves say look, we are sure they knew. because they did so little checking and in many cases they said -- a couple at least, they presented document and the trump organization said there's a problem with this document go get a better one. not are you who you say you are. but go get a better fake those stories and we haven't been able to find someone on the trump organization to confirm them th they were taking small steps to make the facade hold up. >> david, as you know, trump owns or has his name on over a dozen golf courses worldwide a large portion of those are in the united states. what's your suspicion that the same problem exists at a number

of other trump propertys >> certainly that possibility seems to be out there. we've found illegalworkers at two trump golf clubs there are a number of other ones in that same area. one sort of proxy here might be how many trump golf clubs were involved inner verify before those clubs seemed to have a big problem with illegal workers without the checks the only trump golf clubs i found were his club in north carolina where it's required by law and the club in california that leaves more than ten golf clubs around the u.s. where this problem may exist. >> david, you sat down with a number of workers in a small apartment and detail that you convened there by attorneys, or an attorney for the now former workers. pull back the curtain and talk about their approach to you. the conversation you had i think a lot of people are wondering what's going to happen to the workers who bravely told you their stories. >> well, as you said, the lawyer -- they have a lawyer who contacted us let us know these folks had been

fired. it was a couple days after they were fired and said look, we think their best chance to sort of stay in this country, to avoid deportation is publicity we think it's better for them to tell their story so they're not swept away before anybody else knows what happened. so they trusted us we went up to new york, a town right next to the golf club. we talked to them. many of them on the record they gave their names, let us photograph them. we talked them for hours on thursday of this week and wrote their story on friday. they certainly are in real limbo. they don't have jobs they're finding it hard to find a new job. they have kids, many of them they're worried about whether they can pay the rent or pay for food and whether they'll be deported and i think they're hoping publicity is going to give them some measure of protection we'll see if that's true >> incredible piece by josh at "the washington post." thank you very much for the time, david. president trump's favorite refrain is witch hunt. why his go-to defense is getting

less traction. first one of president trump's cabinet members criticized for comments about the government shutdown >> here to comment is secretary of commerce and man of the people, wilbur ross. >> all i meant was that all we have to make sacrifices in times of hardship. for example, instead of going out to dinner, you could open a restaurant in your house or for a period of time, you could have your horses attend public school. better bank starts with looking at something old, and saying, "really?" so capital one is building something completely new. capital one cafes. inviting places with people here to help you, not sell you. and savings and checking accounts with no fees or minimums. because that's how it should be. you can open one from right here or anywhere in 5 minutes. seriously, 5 minutes... this is banking reimagined.

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let's come to our senses, everyone this witch hunt is turning into a circus >> she's the witch >> i was just about to accuse her. >> this is crazy i'm not a witch. >> well, i've heard enough burn her >> burn her. >> burn her. >> the simpsons there with a nod

to the 17th century. an echo of president trump's reaction to the latest arrest. witch hunt president trump has tweeted those two words 153 times in total. that's led to an amazing response from seth moulton, the democratic congressman who represents the sixth congressional district in massachusetts which includes a salem. i live in se lem can confirm this is still false. the president continues to use the phrase even though six of his advisers have been charged by the special counsel joyce, you hear the refrain over and over again you see him doing it when things are getting bad? not a thought out response to what's going on? what's the effect of calling it this is it sticking with his base, with others? >> you know, he's a bumper sticker kind of guy.

and this was a good bumper sticker he could use with the base but over time, i think the force of this gets turned back against him. he'll end up putting a pointy hat on before this is over >> there is a resonance to what the during the water gate days >> right and the reality is they have caught a lot of witches. paul manafort and roger stone among them i also think there's a certain power when this gets put on paper that convinces people that it's not just air and it's not just emotion i think that's one of the key things that mueller's team has done they've created a narrative on paper that's sub substantiated with raw fact. it's the justice system functioning. >> and that's why polls support that most americans want to see the information continue when you look at the list, you're forced to see this isn't

a coincidence or a case of rare individuals doing something that's suspicious. >> it's an effort again and again to devalue language and the meaning of words no collusion, witch hunt it's an effort to constantly sew dissent and confusion. it's true. it stops having any meaning and people stop -- he becomes the background kind of just -- it's like a background buzz trump has become for a lot of the public other than the tiny position of his base >> for this reason, i'm glad we have a cultural theorist at the table. talk about that. i mentioned he's done it more than 150 times you can just hit retweet on the initial tweet. he doesn't that. he types it out. when you have refrains like this, what's the effect of hearing it over and over again >> i think it's desensitizing. and at the same time i think it also produces this effort to kind of construct it own reality. i think we don't think enough about the fact that trump's strength has been in the pleasure his base gets in hearing him speak words. i mean, the -- we talk about

undocumented immigrants. when he dehumanizes them over and over again the saassault on migrants has bn bipartisan but no other president has taken pleasure in dehumanizing that population it's important to realize how much his base enjoys hearing that i think a lot of this is feeding the pleasure that he gives people in speaking that way and the pleasure they take in hearing it i think what's going to be interesting is the disdense between his ability to accomplish anything and the reality in that language are crashing into each other >> he's a propaganda they use language in a classically propaganda way sarah huckabee sanders does it kellyanne conway does it and propaganda can have short-term value when it gets you around a short-term goal he did it as a campaigner. during the 2016 campaign he slagged almost every one of his

republican opponents with a demeaning nickname that can work in the short term. in the long term, people need to see substance. >> it's also effective in a hyper partisan media climate which the president is aware of. he launched his journalism or political career on "fox and friends. he's aware many of the people who support him only are reading outlets that are going to quote him, quote these republican lawmakers saying the democrats caved and won't actually push back on the fact that we have data we have research supporting interviews and evidence that this just isn't what he says it is >> but remember on the apprentice, you're fired was a signature phrase i think he learned that he could get a lot of traction out of coupling a couple words together and repeating them endlessly >> but there's something unsustained about those kinds of performances he's done and now the practices of governing are -- it's a sustained practice nobody is going away so i think that's what's

interesting is all these strategies simply don't hold as the years go on and the results show themselves. >> joyce, whet our whistle for the next segment part of the strategy is to create more fog in a foggy environment. when you look at the indictment on friday, when you look at where things are headed, is there a point at which they have to get serious and engage with these things in a more engaged way, more directly >> on the one hand the tag lifted with the indictment on friday we have this important phrasing early on in the indictment where mueller alleges that someone directed and he uses the passive voice to avoid identifying, someone directed senior campaign officials to ask roger stone to go back and find out what else wikileaks had. that's a small universe of people who could have been doing the directing. either the campaign is complicit, or perhaps it goes up to the president this is why i think the strategy of telling people what your eyes tell you and what your ears tell

you is wrong, that's why he's had to use this strategy all along. >> we give roger stone the credit for creating the wall the met or taphor. how about this witch hunt as well to what degree do you give him responsibility for making this part of the narrative? him saying what he's been saying all along, we should be casting doubt on the investigation >> this is the sustained narrative of this investigation. you can't trust law enforcement. the fbi is full of angry democrats, and i have to conclude that that's because they knew this moment was coming all along. they knew what they had done they knew it would ultimately be uncovered. when you have the facts on your side as the defendant, you argue the facts. when you have the law, you argue the law. people like to say when you have neither, you pound the table, but you put the prosecutors and the police on trial. >> it's been a fascinating message. when i talk to activist voters trying to communicate to

americans that there are real questions we should have about the fbi and law enforcement and conservatives pushed back saying blue lives matter. you need to believe police and fbi all the time only for trump to get in the white house and convince them these communities are not believable >> we'll come back and talk about rudy why president trump's rudy problem could come back to haunt him. body but yourself in a world which is doing it's best to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪

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sick and tired of the defamation of donald trump by the media and by the clinton campaign. i am sick and tired of it. >> rudy giuliani defending donald trump at the national convention after giuliani had to walk back comments he made on television quote, i'm afraid it will be on my gravestone he told the new yorker staff writer. rudy giuliani, he lied for trump.

"politico" reports there is a method to rudy giuliani's madness. they think it is a calculate effort to blunt the findings of robert mueller's report in an attempt to move the goalpost to accommodate the facts. >> i have no dealings with russia i have no deals that could happen in russia. >> can you share what communication the president had with michael cohen about trump tower moscow >> it's our understanding that they went on throughout 2016, could be up to as far as october, november. >> did michael cohen make payments to other women for the president? >> i would think if necessary, yes. >> so the president did know one of that during the campaign? >> that's a possibility or rumor. >> you stated a misfact. >> maybe i did. >> he didn't have a conversation -- >> no, it isn't truth. truth isn't truth. i never said there was no

collusion between the campaign. >> there was no russian collusi collusion. no russian collusion. >> joyce vance, incredible piece. we've been using vivid language. when you say there is bad news snews, rudy giuliani can socialize the bad news. >> the first time you hear the president paid off women he was having affairs with, it's shocking, right? the second time a little less and the third time finally you become numb to it. so this is what giuliani is doing. he socializes bad news so that by the time it's full impact should be hitting, it somehow diminished and the president has done this effectively throughout his presidency giuliani has been out there championing this approach for the president when it comes to the mueller investigation. >> it would give him more agency a lot of people are asking what is wrong with giuliani and saying he's mentally unstable to my colleague on friday

your reaction to that. do you think this is entirely calculate in keeping with what you know of giuliani, the former federal prosecutor. >> maybe it's crazy like a fox but what good prosecutors do in trial, if there are bad facts coming, you get them out early you don't want them to hear them from the defendant's lawyer. you explain them yourself. >> tim, i'll turn to you given us good perspective of the '80s and '90s and another character emerging, rudy giuliani. to what degree were they in the same circles and what is their relationship like historically or is this the same rudy all along? >> he made this out as new yorkers watched this transit from dedicated and passionate city official of 9/11 to loose lipped wako. and that's been remarkable to watch, but i really agree with joyce, if you put that transition aside, i think he's

running interference for trump and laying smoke screens because they are trying to fight this first and foremost in the media and trying to win control of the narrative and sort of win hearts and minds how to think about this the problem with rudy, he's actually really bad at remembering what the facts are, remembering the details of a story. he's appear to only read an hour before he goes on tv and he steps over himself all the time. i don't think trump cares about that i think trump is happy to have pit bulls out there that jump at the media and gnaw at people's knees and raise doubts about the quality of a prosecution, and i don't think trump is going to get rid of him any time soon. >> should we be listening to him? i thought after having to walk it back, what's the added value of listening to somebody that doesn't seem to know the story, can't remember the most basic facts of it? are we doing ourselves a

disservice by listening to rudy giuliani >> it's the hardest thing. he speaks on behalf of supposedly donald trump. our country is being destroyed by the narcissim of old men. that's like the theme of today, roger stone, trump the fact he is simultaneously tactical but frantic and sad, those are both realities so i think whether we watch him, it's this constant effort to figure out you know that it's demeaning, the discourse and it's muddying the waters so i think it is this question how do you absorb a culture of lies that trump has placed on the public and we're forced to reckon with it you can't ignore it. the ability for us to talk through why it's so hugely problematic. i think that there is something about the fact he is out of control to some extent and that frantic sadness. we're all afraid of dying but we don't need the psycho drama.

>> it's shaping his legacy this is one once known as america's mayor and so many people are shaped and affected by 2000, what happened in september 11th and we're seeing someone who very much could have one of the most memorable contributions be he lied for trump. >> we'll leave it there. thanks to all of you nice to see you, joyce, here in new york joyce vance here in new york and tim o'bryan again with me here in new york city brand-new l polling from nbc ne. the president's approval rating and who was to blame for the 35-day shutdown and could we have another businessman with no experience and politics turned presidential can tender? the man with the political world buzzing this morning and whose candidacy many democrats preemptively ground, i apologize, to a halt ♪

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welcome back to "up," i'm david gura the longest government shutdown in history ended and the poll lit. >> caller: fallout h-- latest fa just begun and the state of the union is heading to the state of the