e each job in energy creates many more in this town. energy lives here. i'm kasie hunt we're live every sunday from washington from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern tonight, the hangover. the government reopens, but the lasting impact will affect workers and families for weeks to come. i'm joined live by senator doug jones of alabama as the clock starts ticking to figure all of this out or shut down again. plus, get me roger stone, a man who has relished decades of dirty tricks, arrested by the fbi, and he's as defiant as ever i will talk to his longtime friend and trump campaign aid

michael caputo, who was questioned in the mueller investigation. and an estimated 20,000 people turn out as kamala harris officially launches her campaign but we begin with the wake of the preventable, predictable shutdown as of today, some portion of the government has been closed for more than 5% of the trump administration so now congress heads to conference to try to figure out all of it for real and which just three weeks in which to do it what is left behind? pessimism. in the latest nbc news/"the wall street journal" poll just 28% of americans say the country is going in the right direction that's the lowest of the trump presidency and at the same time weaving in and out of the program, are headlines like these -- michael cohen, defeated by the senate after postponing public testimony in the house paul manafort back in court with special counsel saying he shouldn't get credit for cooperating. of course, between poses invoking richard nixon, roger stone indicted on obstruction

charges. with all of this going on and denied the opportunity to give a state of the union, the president sought to have the last word with a nationally televised speech >> if we don't get a fair deal from congress, the government will either shut down or on february 15th again, i will use the powers afforded to me under the laws and the constitution of the united states to address this emergency >> with that i would like to welcome in my panel with me here on set, presidential historian and msnbc contributor jon meacham. white house reporter for "the l.a. times," eli stoeckels and nbc news intelligence and national security reporter ken dilanian welcome to all of you. jon meacham, let's start with where the president stands today in context here, because this,

the longest government shutdown, the overarching view is that he lost this battle badly to the point that there are headlines on the front pages of "the new york times" saying his team is worried about a primary in 2020. >> and rightly the two significant primary challengers in modern history, reagan to ford in '76 and ted kennedy to carter in '80 didn't help both men lost. pat buchanan running against george w. bush in '92 weakened him as well. it seems to me he's got to win something, and simply moving the goal posts and saying, all right, on february 15th, by god, we're going to figure this out, this is part of a pattern, right. does he have that reality tv instinct of saying in two weeks, tune in, x and y but i think we're seeing yet again how the reality tv

vernacular is not kme vernacular is not kmemz rit with the presidency. >> mulvaney was on the sunday shows saying the president is willing to shut it down again. >> they're aware of the fact this is not a good moment for them, the president's base is upset and the president's poll numbers and his standings with independent voters and other people who voted for him 2016, his standing is down with them they will say this isn't a retreat. they will attempt to reframe this so say he's stepping back to have better leverage to negotiate getting money for the border wall. we saw five weeks of a stalemate and it did not produce a dollar for donald trump's border wall even though they thought they could do it with pressure and miscalculated at every turn. and as jon said, this is part of a consequence and administration that doesn't bring in people with experience to give him advice and doesn't come up with a plan beyond the next day and dominating the next news cycle

headlines. there was another a reality-based plan for how to actually achieve this money. there was just a nervous reaction to some of the complaints they heard from the right from people like rush l e limbaugh that they weren't fighting hard enough but they never figured out the end game here i think they still haven't figured it out, whether in three weeks the president calls a national emergency or perhaps congress puts something together in a conference committee, funding bill, and they actually can get another money for border funding that the president will call it a win. >> the reality is this really hurt a lot of people who probably voted for president trump, and who looked around and said, this is not working for me. >> and i think people underestimated the impact that federal employees have on the economy, and that contractors have on the economy who are not going to get back pay. there are several hundred thousand contractors who are trying to figure out what does my financial reality look like i think what's important is the trump administration's m.o. for the last year has been to say we

can get 3% economic growth, we can get 4% economic growth we haven't seen that before. we're going to have growth out of this world and in reality what the shutdown has done is taken a lot of money out of everyday americans' pockets. we don't know the impact on growth yet because most of the economic advisers are furloughs. when they come back, maybe we will get data on what the impact will be. but i think this is going to ache a bite out of what the administration hoped it would create with tax reform, deregulation and a lot of the president's economic pillars. >> some early estimates $6 billion in damages ken dilanian, everyone thought it was rather -- let's say there was significant speculation perhaps the president decided to end the shutdown on friday because of roger stone >> yeah, that's right. that was just a horrible set of headlines for him. his close associate roger stone indicted for lying to congress nonstop cable news coverage. suddenly the president decides to hold a news conference and call an end to the whole thing there are reporting he decided to do that the night before but

i also want to point out there were real consequences in the shutdown to the fbi which was paralyzed, wiretaps, negotiations s and you saw the fbi director take an angry, strong stand in a message to employee that's may have helped move things along. >> jon, what's your sense of the irreversible damage that was done to organizations like the fbi? >> one hopes nothing is irreversible it was a significant shutdown. clearly the political impact is clear. the economic impact is clear there will be a cumulative cost that people are going to have to sit and with some distance and reflection, not qualities that are in oversupply in the american political life are going to have to figure out was this flyer that the country took on an unconventional president worth it was it worth it to the fbi

was it worth it to institutions like the press broadly put, which he has attacked relentlessly what it worth it to the idea of a common vocabulary of facts which we can then figure out whether we agree or disagree what to do about the facts but by undermining information that you simply don't like, that has created this remarkable, i think, and perhaps most pernicious thing he's done is undercut the idea that there is a objective reality. there are not alternative facts. there are alternative idol jis and choices in terms of policy but if we can't have a conversation -- and other presidents may have wanted to launch this kind of assault on reality, but they didn't really. and that is -- everything is precedented in some way, but that is unprecedented. and it will ultimately come out. my sense of talking to folks is they're ready to hear from director mueller

they will make a judgment then i'm sure you're hearing this. >> everybody is ready to hear from mueller, me included frankly. and then we'll figure out what to do about it but stone -- i mean, alan drury couldn't have invented roger stone. it's remarkable. the fact he's now where he is and did the fbi arrest him even though they're working without pay? they were so happy to go do it >> the black vests were not paid that day >> it was pro bono that tells you something. >> ken, you spent the last couple of days digging in to this indictment. one of the key things here is this question about who in the trump campaign potentially directed future contacts with stone and wikileaks. break down what you think we're going to be talking about this going forward. >> taking a step back, we all knew roger stone would be indicted he said he would be indicted when you look at the universe of

criminal charges robert mueller could have brought against stone. this isn't actually the sexiest thing. this is lying to congress. there's no conspiracy in this indictment there's no russian collusion explicitly there are tantalizing hints. it suggests roger stone knew in advance he had hillary clinton's e-mails and he was directed by a campaign official and was directed by an unnamed person -- and when you think of who can direct a campaign official, the candidates are small so many believe there's more coming on this this was kind of an opening salvo to see if stone with cooperate, rouse him out of bed at 5:00 in the morning with heavily armed fbi agents, charge him with the kitchen sink, not yet, but show him what the potential other charges are. another view is this is all mueller has. he doesn't have russia collusion. he's poised to file a report soon -- >> is there a university that doesn't care because stone wasn't working for the campaign

at this stage of the game? >> i'm not sure that was material because he as we talking to the campaign. in fact, if he was talking to donald trump and they both knew they were getting stolen e-mails from the russians, arguably that can be the conspiracy everybody is looking at. >> remember, the campaign was about three people literally. i remember talking to people who interviewed for vice president and one of their concerns was it wouldn't even take a minivan to hold the people who were relevant in the campaign it's a very, very small universe. >> for sure. we want to turn now to the day's other big political story. according to the city of oakland, more than 20,000 people turned out to see camilla harris officially announce her bid for president. she said, my whole life i had only one client, the people. she talked about climate change, sexual assault, the war on drugs and aftermath of the recession and about race in america. and she said this about the current state of the white house. >> when democratic values are

under attack around the globe, when authoritarianism is on the march, when nuclear proliferation is on the rise, when we have foreign powers infecting the white house like malware -- >> she seems to be having fun. joining me now from oakland, california, nbc senior policy reporter she established herself as a top-tier nominee for this election what did it feel like on the ground >> it was a really good event.

you and i have covered a lot of these campaign rallies over the course of our career i have covered a lot of these campaign kickoffs. this one looked really strong. the outpouring support of the hometown of kamala harris was extraordinary. 20,000 people, as you said, was the estimate by the county of how many people were actually in the perimeter. outside the perimeter, the roads were lined with people they were just all over the place, blocks and blocks away, they couldn't even see her and yet they came out from this big rally. from a crowd perspective, it was really, really strong. the other thing she did, she's running to be the first african-american woman president. of course, african-american woman is the most important group in the democratic party and certainly that probably will help kamala harris with a leg up it's not automatic that black women will vote for her but it will not hurt she's the first woman of collar in this race we saw through the african-american influence on the choice of speakers

there was a gospel choir there was a paster who gave a very stirring invocation there was a hip-hop group who came along and then kamala harris came out and spoke forcefully about race. she talked about young black men being incarcerated and shot for just walking down the street, minding their own business she's definitely leaning into the issue of race. she's definitely leaning in to her biography, somebody who was a prosecutor for many years. that may cause her problems with the left flank of the democratic party but she talked a lot about the dignity and respect of law enforcement people, even as she talked about how attacks on race need to stop and then at the end she brought her family up on stage, and it was just a very nice moment, sort of a benetton commercial of different people and blended family to support her. all in all, yes, as you said, kasie, she set a high bar. >> beth fouhy in oakland, thank you so much for that on-the-ground perspective. we appreciate it >> she occupies a very

interesting space. she made a statement, as beth pointed out, and made several statements on running on being a black woman. which we should in many ways celebrate because it used to be something a political coupleant would tell you to run away from. her first stop was in south carolina also if you dig into her polling numbers, she appeals to a lot of well educated whites that's another constituency that has people comparing her to the obama model. >> she pitches herself and especially today at that rally, she pitches herself as an every-woman, an 'ttithesis of donald trump, 99 to 1. but she was borrowing from the darlings of the democratic party like universal pre-k and debt-free college. >> medicare for all. >> exactly. >> interestingly, she also pitched a middle class tax cut and said she would pay for it by rolling back the big corporate tax that the president put in place last year. when have you heard a democrat run on tax cuts? well -- yes.

in recent history. but certainly she's trying to borrow a little bit of everything from the different factions of the democratic party and certainly trying to pitch herself as the candidate of the young person and as everyone. >> stark generational difference from some of the others we expect to run. we have so much more to come here on "kasie dc. we will talk about what congress has learned about the second kick of the mule on that government shutdown. and roger stone's former driver and campaign aide michael caputo stops by to talk about what's next for his close friend as we go to break, it's been an insane news cycle here are just some of the things that hand on friday. >> as though we didn't have enough breaking news to follow this morning, we have more roger stone has been arrested. >> seven indictments today >> laguardia airport went into a ground stop. >> major delays all over the

country. >> roger stone to appear in court any moment >> we're getting something else in just now. >> i'm about as angry as i have been in a long, long time. >> we've got some breaking news from capitol hill. here comes the news. the president will speak at 1:30 p.m. today. >> we have reached a deal to end the shutdown. >> he gets nothing for his proposed wall. >> what a day it's been. >> wow, what a day tion, i can't tell you anything about myself. but believe me... i'm not your average consumer. that's why i switched to liberty mutual. they customized my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. and as a man... uh... or a woman... with very specific needs that i can't tell you about- say cheese. mr. landry? oh no. hi mr. landry! liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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throughout the spending stalemate, we watched as president trump emptied the play book to try to get money for his border wall. it all started with that remarkable oval office meeting back in december, when the president said he would be proud to shut down the government over wall funding once the government did shut down, the president made a pitch directly to the american people in his first primetime oval office address then the president made a trip to the border, flanked by border patrol agents. but it later came out that the president didn't really want to go at all. leaking from a meeting with tv afrpgers, he said, quote, it's not going to change a damn thing but i'm still doing it then the president made another speech at the white house, unveiling a deal that included short-term protections for some undocumented immigrants in exchange for wall funding. that plan failed in the senate on thursday.

and the president saw six republicans abandon him. and so the next day, the president signed a short-term spending bill with no money for the wall functionally the exact same financial scenario this we would have seen had he signed that bill back then. >> 35 days ago one interesting thing about the poll numbers we were talking about earlier, how his approval rating has been dipping is no matter how unpopular the president becomes, he will still be more popular than congress. even though he said in that meeting that he would take responsibility for it, and his approval rating dipped to 40%, congress is still at 18% people still feel like congress is dysfunctional i have heard from many hill aides over the course of the last week the white house is actually the place that is dysfunctional. this is a steven miller policy all along, nick mulvaney, the acting chief of staff, has not been able to run the type of process-oriented white house that we saw under john kelly,

and then, of course, bill shine, who has taken the reins of communications, who has produced some of the moments, the trip to the border, the primetime speech, and you can argue those were ineffective as well you have to wonder whether there will be any shake-up at the white house in response to the fact the outcome we saw was the same exact outcome that you maybe would have gotten 35 days ago. >> and that's a good point about bill shine the events were almost things the president clearly felt uncomfortable with things he did not necessarily gravitate to naturally i'll old enough to remember during the midterms when several democratic candidates were unsure about whether nancy pelosi would have the votes to be the next speaker and some outright opposed her since then she consolidated power, and since then surprised the president holding her caucus together over border wall funding and state of the union. >> it's called the state of the union. it's in the constitution we're supposed to be doing it,

and now nancy pelosi -- or nancy as i call her -- she doesn't want to hear the truth, and she doesn't want to hear, more importantly, the american people to hear the truth. >> politico reports, quote, during a tense meeting with staff thursday after watching negative coverage of the shutdown, highlighting insensitive comments made by his own top officials, trump complained, quote, nancy is never going to give me what i want on the border wall, according to two people briefed on his comments. "the washington post" reports at a meeting wednesday with conservative groups, the president accused former house speaker paul ryan of having, quote, screwed him by not securing border wall money when republicans had the majority, according to one attendee. he said ryan should have gotten him money before he left, but that he had no juice and had gone fishing ryan had reportedly warned the president against a shutdown and said it would be politically disastrous i'm sorry, i could barely hold

it together reading all of this, jon meacham. nancy is never going to give me what i want? he sounds like a kid talking about his mother. >> yeah, it's sort of touching, in a way he's never going to get the stretch armstrong he wants or whatever it is at christmas. we know he doesn't -- i think the first time he's alluded to the constitution was the state of the union this is not someone who has -- how to put it -- a grasp of how politics works and he thought that, and why wouldn't you he runs for office for the first time he blows up every convention, becomes president and the lesson he's learned is, keep doing what you're doing and at some point he has to decide -- that's why the numbers are so important, if those numbers stay low, he's got to change his behavior. or not and if not, then maybe this all wraps up sooner than we think.

>> let's talk about pelosi for a second she has emerged this -- i don't want to i say a cult hero but hero across the board to democrats, many of whom wanted a changing of the guard. but i'm fascinated between the dynamic of her and president trump, just the nickname, i would like to call her nancy, every other nickname he has is to derogatory but he doesn't have one for her. >> i have heard from people who support this president and said privately, she's been slapping him around ever since she started this go back to the meeting in december when she walked out and became a meme in her orange coat putting her glasses on she's been working him over. it's really because she understands the process so much better than he does. he has -- as jon alluded to, never really grasped separation of powers thing in our government his entire life, anything that stood in his way, he found a way to remove that impediment and he cannot do that with the governor and legislative branch pelosi will see to it he can't

and she has risen in stature for be being firm with him the state of the union, some people think she could have let him give the state of the union and she said look, the security is too much and he caved on that one too. he couldn't force himself into the house when the government was shutdown he tried to anyway he sent a letter hours later and next day, fine nancy, what she said was reasonable and we have seen it throughout the presidency the last five weeks of trump going moment to moment thinking one step ahead and not really having a real grasp or real plan long term. >> and kayla, the other factor here was mitch mcconnell's relative absence there was some reporting about pelosi remarking on this saying he's basically stepped out of the room but he was, you know, played a big role, we've learned, in convincing the president to on friday finally give up the ship because this was the last thing he ever wanted. >> he was on the record before

the shutdown even started being asked, will the government shut down over border wall fund and he said no or i think he was asked, are you sure the government will not shut down -- >> yes, are you confident it's not going to shut down and he said yes, i am. >> i think he has been dressed down to a certain extent by the president by not knowing exactly what the white house will sign off on the president a couple of times has called congress's bluff by having legislation arrive where he would say actually, i'm not sure about this. i think the senate majority leader didn't necessarily want to assume that he knew what the president would favor and on friday, lindsey graham was in his office and came out and told reporters he's just going to defer to the white house on this one. he's going to wait and see what the white house will do and then we'll figure out what happens. >> they all insisted, democrats and republicans, the president do that in public before they voted on anything. kayla, jon meacham, thank you both so much really appreciate it when we come back, workers

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welcome back new questions being raised about

the trump administration's business practices, surprise, surprise "the washington post" reports about a dozen undocumented workers were suddenly fired from trump national golf club in westchester county earlier this month. we will talk to a reporter who broke that story about it in a moment first, here's nbc's kate snow. >> reporter: for 14 years gabriel sedano worked in building maintenance at the trump national golf club in westchester county, new york. >> i liked painted, plumbing, everything we had to fix >> reporter: in the apartment he shares with a wife and three kids, he showed us his uniform and years of pay stubs maria was a seasonal housekeeper at the trump club for three years. both from puebla, mexico they crossed the border on foot. why did you come here illegally? >> to give them a better life. >> reporter: you wanted to work? >> yeah. i do want to work. >> reporter: maria and gabriel both say they presented forged green cards and social security cards when hired

they didn't ask any questions? >> not questions, no nothing >> reporter: did anyone at the golf trump club direct you to get false documents? >> no. >> reporter: but gabriel told us he thinks people at the highest levels of the trump administration knew they were hiring undocumented workers to save money, paying low wages and no benefits. do you think they knew at the club that your documents were false? >> that's like what i think. because they needed employee and like they don't check like very good. >> our jobs are being stripped from our country like we're babies >> reporter: gabriel said president trump spoke with him during his years at the club and suspects the president also know there were undocumented workers on staff >> i cannot like be sure about that but he got to know. >> reporter: you think the president must have known? >> he must know. >> reporter: we spoke to six club workers on camera and others who didn't want their faces shown. a dozen say they were fired on january 18th

margarita cruz recorded her meeting. in a statement to nbc news, the trump administration administration's eric trump said we have thousands of employees and very strict hiring practices. if any employee submitted false documentation in an attempt to circumvent the law, they will be terminated immediately we take this issue very seriously. this is one of the reasons my father is fighting so hard for immigration reform the system is broken now the worker's attorney is taking some of them to capitol hill to meet with democrats. >> the trump organization is a criminal enterprise. there is a federal crime here. these people who were fired are material witnesses to a federal crime. >> of course, you broke this story for "the washington post," and this seems to be a systemic problem for the trump administration. >> yes, it's the second golf club where it's been found "the new york times" wrote a

story last year about ben minister, the golf club in new jersey he often gos that had a number of undocumented workers these are two places that seem to be doing an organizationwide check now and i think if that goes on, we're going to see more instances like this at other trump clubs. >> the president we found some campaign sound from him in 2015 in phoenix talking about these issues take a look at that. >> by the way, officially -- and i have only said this about 200 times, but it never gets reported, i love the mexican people i love the spirit of the mexican people i love them. many, many people from mexico legal. they went in the old-fashioned way, they're legal many, many people from mexico work for me, and over the years thousands of people, hispanics, have worked for me

and many, many work for me now, but thousands, they're incredible people. >> so, of course, first of all that claim as your reporting shows, not the case. but obviously the issue here is the hypocrisy considering the policies he's pushing on one hand and his behavior on the other. >> that's right. what trump said throughout the campaign and particularly last month during the shutdown is immigration is an issue of crime, all of these other things, it's a moral issue letting immigrants into this country, we want to be nice to them but if we let them in, it drives down wages from americans and takes jobs away from americans. this is a chance to see when donald trump wasn't in the spotlight for this, when he was conducting private business and hiring americans and paying them more would cost him a little money, how did he apply that moral lesson to himself? did he go out of his way did he perform audits to figure out if the documents he had on file were legitimate the answer appears to be no. the workers we talked to in westchester who were fired a week ago, the documents the trump administration audited and termed to be authentic, they had

them on five 10, 15 years. they were there for the checking if they cared to check it was clear they had not made any sort of extraordinary check, anything like what they have done now over the years, even as donald trump was saying immigration, and particularly the sort of low wage effects of immigration,s with one of the most facing the entire country >> do you have a sense from your reporting if the president was involved in the decision making around this? obviously he's supposed to have recused himself from his companies but he also talks to his children all the time. >> we don't really know. we have eric trump, who we quoted is the functional head of the association now, with his father with a role in this, who is at the white house. eric trump could have taken this decision himself we don't know about that connection. >> ken dilanian, i want to ask you about another trump family related story that unfortunately was buried under a an avalanche of news, but that does not make it any less important. jared kushner, you found, was essentially denied a security

clearance and that denial was overridden by a political appointee, do i have that right? >> not a political appointee but a political career in the trump administration administration move twoxt in the white house thought jared kushner was unfit for military secrets. >> and it was because of -- >> the things we all know, foreign entanglements, meetings he had with russia during the campaign, things that would get normal person disqualified for security clearance foreign contacts, they take it seriously, even to a faumt you're supposed to disclose every foreigner you met over the years that is sometimes very difficult and unfair, but those are the rules and the rules were not applied to mr. kushner there's another beat to this too actually, this hand 30 other times to other white house officials who remain unnamed, and that is unprecedented. and then when kushner was trying to get another type of clearance for sensitive compartment information, the really juicy

stuff the nsa intercepts, cia, source reporting, that went to the cia and cia communicators went back to the white house and said how did you give him a top secret clearance from what i understand, the secret service did not give him that top security clearance and many don't understand how he's overseaing middle east peace if he doesn't have access to the most sensitive intelligence. >> that's a very good question thank you all very much for your insight tonight. when we come back, i'm joined by senator ben cardin talking about the end of one shutdown and whether there's another one on the horizon

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now get $300 off our best phones. always a catch. like somehow you wind up getting less. but now that i book at hilton.com, and i get all these great perks. i got to select my room from the floor plan... very nice... i know, i'm good at picking stuff. free wi-fi... laptop by the pool is a bold choice... and the price match guarantee. how do you know all of this? are you like some magical hilton fairy? it's just here on the hilton app. just available to the public, so... book at hilton.com and get the hilton price match guarantee. if you find a lower rate, we match it and give you 25% off that stay. welcome back joining me from baltimore is democratic senator ben cardin from maryland. he's a member of the foreign relations committee. senator, thank you so much for being here tonight >> kasie, it's good to be with you. thanks. >> let's start with the shutdown, because this is, of course, immediately going to turn to negotiations to try to

prevent another one in three weeks. nick mulvaney, the interim chief of staff, said this morning that the president seems prepared to shut it down do you think congress can come to an agreement to try to avert that what are the hurdles in front of you? >> there cannot be any more shutdowns. this shutdown was devastating. it hurt so many people it hurt our country, it hurt our economy. we cannot let one person, the president of the united states, shut down government again so there's been lots of conversations. i've had today conversations with my republican colleagues to look for a way in which we can have a process to make sure that we can achieve a bipartisan border security package. we think we can do that. we think we can do that within the next two weeks we're going to be reasonable and we're going to do what's right for the american people. it may not be what president trump wants but we're going to do what's right for the american people on border security, and

there will be a strong bipartisan effort to make that happen. >> there's been some discussion of legislation to permanently end government shutdowns do you think that's realistic? >> that's one of the issues this we went to put in to the discussion here. we think we should pass legislation so president trump can no longer hold the american people hostage as a tool to get what he wants. so we are hopeful that we'll get some support the republicans have also joined us in this effort to stop any further opportunities for the president to shut down government >> would you prefer to see the president declare a national emergency then shut down again in the event that there is no agreement in three weeks >> i think shutting down the government should be off the table. it's never a good idea to do it. when the president did it this time, people's lives were very much impacted. to have to work every day and not get a paycheck, to be on furlough without a paycheck,

small businesses, many no longer in business, service contract workers have not yet been made whole and may never be made whole. no, don't shut down the government as far as border security, let's talk about what's reasonable to protect our southern border. democrats and republicans are willing to work with the president and the experts on border security to do what's necessary. >> let's turn now to russia sanctions. there's news tonight that the trump administration has succeeded in lifting the sanctions against oleg deripaska. your reaction, congressman, to try to stop this >> this is terrible. it's outrageous. it's the wrong signal to mr. putin. this oligarch is very close to president putin. the sanctions were put on for good reason. the changes that have been made in his organization does not affect the change of ownership of his organization. the sanctions should have remained the majority of congress thought sanctions should remain. and yet the president's softening his approach towards

russia when he should be strengthening our hand against russia >> do you read anything into this in the context of roger stone having been indicted >> you know, i have a hard time figuring out the president's policies with russia he certainly has not been consistent we had to take action early in his term to take away certain discretions on sanctions with the president in order to make it clear that russia's interference in our elections, what russia's continuing to do, requires us to make it clear to mr. putin he can't get away with that if we don't, he will continue interfere in our system. president trump did impose sanctions but now easing sanctions against a key ally against mr. putin sends a signal to mr. putin, well, maybe i can push the america a little bit further, because it looks like they won't take action against us so this is just the wrong thing to do. i can tell you that bipartisan opposition to easing these sanctions exists in both the

senate and the house and i'm very disappointed the president acted in this way. >> and finally, there has been an increase in the tension at which venezuela and the president has suggested that all options, including a military one perhaps, are on the table. would you support military intervention in venezuela? >> i don't think we should be using military intervention. i do support the president's policy here of recognizing the legitimate power in venezuela changed and there needs to be open and free elections. so i think there's unity among many of us with the administration on their policies on the recognition of the new president. but -- and we also need to guarantee the security of our own personnel that are in venezuela. the most important is to in this time when there's so much unrest, to make sure americans are safe so if we have to react, that's one thing. but to go in and try to use our military to -- for a result of

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welcome back we, of course, watched kamala harris' massive rollout of her campaign today at the same time a wave of western mostly white democrats may join the rest of the growing field. people like senator michael bennett of colorado, washington governor jay inslee and even montana's governor steve bullock. our vaughn hillyard explains how this might just work for bullock. >> governor steve bullock. [ cheers ] >> don't kid yourself. the threats are real we have to continue to build up our voices, to be even louder. >> how do you become president when most of america doesn't know who you are i first heard about steve bolic

last summer. some folks in iowa told me to pay attention to him for the 2020 presidency, a different kind of candidate than they'd seen before. >> 2016 in montana, president trump won state-wide. >> reporter: does the have the name recognition like donald trump or the money or political clout by democrats in the 2020 field. >> nearly 30 democrats considering a run against president trump. >> reporter: it's the root of what made him a success back home and why we're here. could a montana man win the democratic nomination and take on a new yorker, president donald trump >> this is the community i was raised in. i delivered newspapers to the governor's house as a kid. i've been able to do progressive things in this state and now 25% to 30% of my voters voted for donald trump when you look at the dysfunction occurring in washington, d.c.,

montanans figured how to run above that and still make government work. >> reporter: he hasn't joined the race but hasn't come out of nowhere. it's about laying the groundwork elizabeth warren, kamala harris, all visited iowa in the first week of declaring their 2020 candidacies. that's nothing new for bullock he's already visited the state four times in just the last year this is exactly how a long-shot democratic governor ended up winning the whole thing before. >> jimmy who >> i don't know who he is. >> i heard he was a peanut farmer. >> reporter: and 16 years later, another relatively unknown governor this one from arkansas >> clinton has zero foreign policy experience, but the bigtser question is whether he'll be perceived add too moderate. >> reporter: sound familiar? governor bullock currently represents one of the country's most rural places. look at the 2016 race by county. the democratic nominee suffered a cross foever america

why do montanans like him? >> he does communicate well with ranchers and folks on average being very conservative voters when i tell you steve bullock, a potential candidate for president of the united states, you tell me -- >> holy [ bleep ]. really yeah wow! >> reporter: do you think hoe could take on donald trump >> no. i don't think so >> reporter: for a guy new to the national scene bullock still has nouch answer does he support medicare for all? u.s. troop presence in the middle east? as governor he expanded medicaid, called for universal background checks and ban on assault weapons and a strong public lands about voe kadvocatn the president does not understand this is an attack on public lands everywhere >> reporter: how do you run against donald trump >> i think if anybody thinks the

job is to out trump touch, i think they're boldly mistaken. i think i consider to stand up to him and offer something better >> we shall see. our thanks to vaughn hillyard who got a nice trip to montana off that report. and for more check out nbc "left field "on youtube. in the next hour, producers combing through the sunday political shows to see if any sound bites spark joy. we'll have the kasie dvr up for we'll have the kasie dvr up for you nexte. ehhh. so when i say, "drivers who switched from geico to esurance saved an average of $412," you probably won't believe me. hey, actor lady whose scene was cut. hi. but you can believe this esurance employee, nancy abraham. seriously, send her an email and ask her yourself. no emails... no emails.

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up and running after five weeks. >> the clock is reset in the battle over the border wall. president trump gave in. >> backed down. >> backed down at least for now. >> end of the shutdown widely seen now at pointless. >> what was actually accomplished >> i would say absolutely nothing. >> this is just the next step in the negotiation. >> i give president trump a lot of credit. >> people will be surprised how much this white house is willing to do. >> i don't think shutdown's a good leverage. >> shutdowns are noit great politics. >> never good policy, ever. >> no one wants a government shutdown. >> is the president prepared to shut down the government again in three weeks >> yeah. >> let's turn to the arrest of roger stone. >> that blockbuster indictment of roger stone. >> another member of the trump campaign's orbit. >> all the stuff happening with roger steen doesn't have

anything to do with the white house. >> there is a disturbing pattern of lying to congress. >> these are very specific allegations of lies and witness intimidation. >> what i engaged in it's called politics. >> i expect to be acquitted and vindicated. >> if he decides to go to trial he's in very, very grave danger. >> this indictment is finished >> welcome back to "kasie dc." with me jonathan swan, senior writer for politico and msnbc political contributor, and jake sherman, co-founder and managing editor of "d.c. cross. and the president's allies all essentially faileded with this one marx jorty leader mitch mcconnell before the shutdown even began >> are you convinced we will not shut down? >> yeah. i am >> and then there's the state of the union. the president said this week it

was nancy pelosi's "prerogative" to delay it before the shutdown was over a day earlier hogan said this. >> nancy pelosi does not dictate to the president when he will or will not have a conversation with the american people >> turns out she does. when it comes to border wall funding, senator lindsey graham made this promise. >> he's not going to sign a bill that doesn't have money for the wall >> if he gives in now, that's the end of 2019 in terms of him being an effective president that's probably the end of his presidency >> well, of course, on friday, the president did just that. he signed a short-term spending bill without any wall funding included obviously, the jury is still out on the second half of senator graham's prediction. by the way, just out tonight from the "wall street journal," a new interview with the president. i asked him whether a deal would be reached in the next three

weeks. "i personally think it's less than 50/50, bust you hat you hat of very good people on that board. of course was president trump to the "wall street journal," and the reality here, jonathan swan is that, i mean, the president decides whether that agreement will be good enough for him endd time again they can agree. it's the president who says, no, i'm going to listen to conserve terry media. >> and the people making up this conference from what i can tell these are not -- not the build the wall caucus getting together. >> no, it's not. >> the idea trump will suddenly in three weeks get the money no one in the white house actually believes that. it seems he'll move in the direction of a national emergency, but that creates a whole new set of problems both legal and political, which -- >> do you think there's any scenario where there is a deal that he would sign or is his

only option according to your sources at this point the national emergency >> there is a deal he would sign and we flow what it is democrats giving him more money for a border barrier i don't think that's in the realm of a possibility. >> and what's the context of a deal that could strike what is the scale of that? >> there is a deal to be had here and i agree that this isn't the build the wall crowd, but this is a crowd that knows how to get deals appropriators. routinely sit down and strike compromises but they're not jex jex -- sexy and not in the media. >> we won't tell them you said that. >> i'll tell them in respect is -- there is a deal to be had. for border security, no the a wall maybe fencing, new slats, whatever you want to tall them

technology there is a deal to be had. the question is account president get his mind around it remember, they it had a deal in december $1. billion and the president indicated to senators and to the leadership he would be for that deal. >> you saw mitch mcconnell say that and he was humiliated. >> right it's tough to cut deals with somebody, with a principle who doesn't really make his intentions or preferences known ever, and when he does, oftentimes he changes. >> changes his mind. no an excellent point tiffany, the reality, coverage for this president out of this was universally that he caved. >> it was not in his favor to your point i talked to the office, backed himself into a corner i think we saw even with the wall itself, you can easy i saw through the slats. when you ask the american people they are hanging overwhelmingly against him with this and i also think $5.6 billion is a lot of money and there are people in the democratic caucus who feel

that money could be better spent giving the people of flint, michigan, clean drinking water, for example. they'll have a hard time pushing that narrative with the american people and to your point again there was already funding in the bill in december it's challenging to negotiate with an unreliable negotiator who moves the goal post consistently i don't know it's only option, a national emergency, landing in the courts which is going to -- delay any progress for beaks maybe even months. >> jonathan, quickly, what's the sense in the white house how bad the shutdown was reported in the "times" the primary challenge seemed more real to some advisers. are you picking that up? >> i haven't have conversations that far advanced. they're all in a state of shell shock. there was no plan ever there was no real strategy there's a lot of griping about jared kushner, you've seen that in the reporting that comes out. jared took charge of the

negotiations with the hill and quite optimistic he could do some expansive immigration deal. a lot of skeptics in the white house, and the skeptics were proven correct. >> i'm going to pause you. we have some details on that, because as you point out, kushneral role in the failed shutdown negotiations was important. the "new york times" reports kushner agreed to take the lead on the talks after the president asked him to find a way to end the stalemate. kushner told colleagues he believed public opinion would shift against speaker pelosi and she would emerge from the debate appears unreasonable and against this without congressional approval instead pushing him towards the short-term deal he agreed to on friday. the "times" reports since then the plaed been frustrated at everyone around him for not delivering a deal he can accept and wary of his son-in-law's advice on this issue jonathan to pick up on what you were talking about

seems that kushner learned from the criminal justice experience pshgs thought he built the relationships to do immigration on political and that seems to have not been the case. >> and the key relationship that he had sort of put a lot of stock in was dick durbin in the senate, and dick durbin, like, took a massive, you know, swing, and, i don't know what the right metaphor is was shattered trump's proposal the day after he made it, maybe even the day of that optimism he had, again, was misplaced. >> can i interject here? criminal justice reform was an issue the democrat was in favor of he didn't get them to do anything maybe organized the process -- >> got republicans -- >> like if i put a band-aid on my finger and then walked into an emergency room and said i can do this heart surgery. it's not a big deal. these are not equal in weight. this is somebody who doesn't understand the dynamics of

capitol hill i understand he might be a smart and lovely guy and people might take to him. he has no experience in immigration policy or the politics thereof by the way, politics that have knotted up other politicians who have -- >> literally splintered the republican party. >> for the last decade a guy who own add newspaper and did some -- >> i don't disagree, but the one thing he does deserve credit for criminal justice reform, changing trump's mind. trump's idea of criminal justice, medieval, hanging the drug dealers lie the rafters lock them up literally, lock them up. >> right. >> so that was the key kind of change. >> fair enough. >> seems as though his advice to the president actually prolonged the shutdown, would you say that's true? >> i -- i think possibly it is true, yeah, because they think you could get this bigger -- kept going, one senator i spoke

to said what's too bigging he thinks he sees potential for a grand immigration deal to that extent, yeah. >> and i think hubris, i think even without jared kushner he probably would have sunk his heels in stood across from a woman and said, no, meant it, wasn't on the payroll who said, no this is my playground. i am not flu to government you are. this is how this is going to work in high housmy house i'm not sure is was prolonged. if you think his confidence in jared kushner is wavering that cast a light across a lot of issues he's the unofficial adviser of all things in the white house. if he's not trusting him on this, what else -- >> exactly. >> i think generally speaking with jared kushner in our reporting, i blame myself, too, we get too sort of, he's up, he's down. he's up -- he's always got a baseline of being pretty solid

he's a son-in-law. >> he's family. >> right. >> a lot of aides i've spoken to over the last three, four days, people involved in the process, are really not happy with him. >> true. >> and think that he was -- didn't have a place in this and screwed up a whole bunch of things when it comes to the shutdown and spending. if he's looking for a deal he's not having people throwing themselves at him to get it done. >> interested to see how he tries to play in the next 20 days, the negotiations coming up a second about roger stone i'm interested in perspective from the hill and the white house. jonathan, how did this land in the white house? like, what was the perception of what happened with stone, his indictment, the problem that generated for the president compared to other issues they've dealt with dough cohen, for example. >> the challenge of actually finding out the real state of mind of trump when these things drop, if he has anxiety or any real emotions about this, he

doesn't actually convey that to his aides. the same private conversations-it's bravado witch-hunt, collusion. look at the way that they, you know, gestapo, et cetera no real difference in the tenor of public and private. as for the staff, they view roger as a very strange character who has been lurking around trump world for a very long time, and no one really understands the relationship it's a very long relationship, and it's also very hard too know how often he engages with trump. because rotcher not the most reliable narrator. >> and this fall on capitol hill, jake, it seems to me as though there has been, or there is becoming to be a certain level of acceptance that this is going to be very real in the mueller report when it comes out and republicans will have to make a decision? >> i think a lot of republicans are coming around to the reality that they can't defend the

president for much longer. i now that sounds trite, but i think they'll be a point over the next six to eight months you'll see republicans en masse dissidence themselves to a degree from some of this stuff and right now they can say, listen, this doesn't have to do with the president this is roger stone acting as roger stone as kind of a -- >> easy except for the line in the indictment they say somebody was directed some senior official was directed by somebody on the trump campaign to talk to julian assange about wikileaks. >> and i think there is a -- a true dynamic that the hill is not going to be a protector of donald trump just basically because -- >> that's pretty significant. >> because democrats are already in control, have subpoena power. we're seeing it already. >> talk about senate republicans. do you believe that's the case senate republicans won't defend the president anymore? >> if you look at the senate, it's always been a little more clear headed, and even handed on

the issue of mueller and russia than the house has been. >> sure. that's true about everything. >> that's true so i think it's tough to say, but i think this situation is going to become increasingly untenable. >> and i think that they will probably stand by this president. i think it will be something interesting to see them break at this point if this is a deciding factor i think the country likely owes roger stone a bit of debt and gratitude. without him, this shutdown might still be going on. the president was desperate to get the nanarrative. strategic on the president to come out at this point and very hard for the president wait for the opportunity for him to distance himself. i'm waiting for donald trump jr. to come out way scandal and the president come out and say i hardly knew the guy, even though i raised him his whole life. talking about what a close relationship they had.

one of his first clients when he started, he and paul manafort started their business together. >> and roy cohen. >> exactly republicans will have a hard time distancing or defending the president, but that hasn't stopped them before on a lot of other issues. >> we are just getting started this hour here on "kasie dc. i'll talk with longtime roger stone friend michael caputo. plus -- >> so let's do this! [ cheers ] >> senator kamala harris has a massive turnout for her campaign launch in oakland. we're going to talk about her speech and the growing field she's running against. first i'm joined by doug jones of alabama, republican senator e? -come on. voted "most likely to help people save $668 when they switch." -at this school? -didn't you get caught in the laminating machine? -ha. [ sighs ]

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the "wall street journal" is out with a new interview with president trump in which he paints a pessimistic pick chesh of the negotiations that lie ahead over the next three weeks. when asked if he thought a newly formed group of lawmakers could craft a deal before the next funding lapse the president thought the chances can "less than 50/50." joining me, senator doug jones of alabama, democrat nice to have you on the program. thanks for being here. >> thanks. good to be here, thank you. >> start with what the president has told the "wall street journal" already incredibly pessimistic about these negotiations what's your response to what the president has said and are you confident your colleagues can strike a deal? >> i am absolutely confident my

colleagues can strike a deal i think the biggest problem is the president. he has this tendency to walk back what he says and move, as you've heard tonight, move goal posts. i think, you know, my colleagues in the senate and in the house can try to deal -- this may take longer than three weeks but if they're making progress i think question do something to extend that i have absolute confidence we did this deal had a deal struck back in the summer. especial es spescial in the senate incredible job moving appropriations forward and i think they can do it again. >> house speaker nancy pelosi drew a line in the sand and the president ultimately had to cave to her she has called the wall immoral. do you agree with that assessment >> you know, kasie, the big effort problem now is the wall is a metaphor, everybody i talk to in alabama wants stronger border security, and the wall is used for a lot of different ways how they could -- what we need

to do is talk about strong border security. heard it over and over, over the last month whether it's a barrier, whether it's fence, drones, some kind of sensors more border patrol you name it. we need stronger border security and everybody is going to be open to getting and strengthening our borders. what i really think, though, is what happened is, this thing became purely political. the president decides he would own a shutdown if you've noticed, he's the only one throughout this who said he welcome add shutdown about a month ago. no one else has said that, and what we've seen is the art of the deal is not the art of governing, and by trying to cut a deal as opposed to govern, we had a 35-day shutdown. i don't think that's going to happen again i think we're going to do everything we can to prevent that, and that will mean talking about what we can do best to secure the southern barder. >> you voted against the president's proposal on the senate floor on thursday your colleague joe manchin of

west virginia voted for it the white house was surprised you voted no why did you vote no? >> very simple unfortunately, the administration continues to walk back you go back to what happened earlier in 2018. when i first got to the senate what we saw last year, we had a bill for $25 billion of border security, but the president didn't like that there were other things about it so it failed he walked it back, listened to his hard-liners and walked it back the same thing happened this time on saturday when he announced a potential daca solution along with border security and funding for barriers i said it was a positive sign. i was looking forward to trying to work with him as well as members of the house who were going to put another billion dollars in there, but when it got to the senate floor it was different. it was a bridge too far. he not only included those things he said but started talking about limiting asylum,

charging people more money started walking back after listening once again to the hard-liners in his administration and it got too far. i was fed up with it, to be honest se seen it time and time again with this administration. if we're not successful it's because the president will make it almost impossible for democrats and moderates to really vote for it. >> your state voted 66% with the president in 2016. are you at all concerned that that vote might come back to haunt you in your upcoming re-election jnchtsz it's interesting. originally i was the only democrat to vote for it on december the 21st. we had a unanimous consent what we have now, same thing on december 19th. two days later, house sent over a package that included disaster relief funding for farmers who have been hit hard in south alabama. it included money for border security and a wall. i'm the only democrat even

senator, my friend senator manchin voted against that one i voted for it this past time was just too much when he went farther than he said saturday. and i can explain that vote to anyone, and i'm not afraid of that a bit >> before i let you go, senator, i have to ask you about 2020 we saw kamala harris announce today, but i'm more interested to know if your longtime friend joe biden is any closer to making a decision and what you're expecting do you think he's going to run >> i don't know. i talked to joe recently we met for a long time and discussed the pros and cons. i think he would be an incredible candidate known him a long time and thought of all the people i met he would be the greatest president that i've seen in my lifetime i still believe that so we'll see he is weighing his family, weighing the pros, the cons. i think he's becoming clowe closclowe -- closer to a decision i'm not sure at the end. we'll see. we'll have a crowded field and a very talented field.

>> he's obviously run in the past what do you think might be different about this run that could make him potentially more successful >> i think it's a combination of factors. i think he is very popular among all democrat graphics. i think he's popular on the left popular in the middle. i think he's popular with the white working class and in the heartland of america, popular with african-americans and incredibly popular with millennials and young people i see that even in alabama i think his appeal is a broad section from his eight years at vice president put him's in a stratosphere and the contrast between he and president trump, someone who really believes in the institutions of government and respect for governing in such a way as joe biden people see that, and that's what they like. >> all right, senator doug jones, thank you very much, sir. see you on capitol hill this week >> got it, kasie thank you. much more to come including a look at kamala harris' 2020

announcement speech that brought out a massive crowd in oakland as we go to break, on friday as roger stone let the world know he is pleading not guilty and members of congress tried to figure out a way out of the shutdown, senator bill cassidy of louisiana had something else on his mind. "kasie dc," back after this. >> i also want to address one other issue particularly serious to folks in louisiana. i hope it doesn't seem out of place with the shutdown, but i can tell you the folks bak home it is something which continues to disturb them. >> mr. president, i'd like to bring up the nfc championship game what happened in my belief and in the belief of many was the most blatant and inconsequential blown call in nfl history. i switched to liberty mutual

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as we embark on this campaign i will tell you this. i am not perfect lord knows, i am not perfect, but i will always speak with decency and moral clarity and

treat all people with dignity and respect. [ cheers and applause welcome back that was kamala harris kicking off her presidential campaign in oakland. coincidentally we talked about this in the break. her crowd was huge, jonathan swan. >> yeah. it was, i mean i remember the 2016 early crowds. that was substantial and impressive also, a strange applause line that that created like uproar and delightment and jubilation what is it dignity and respect or something? >> yeah, well, in fairness -- >> that's bait for the -- >> well -- tiffany, actually -- >> i was overly optimistic thinking she wouldn't last more time before she was suddenly facing racist and sexist undertones but it's always out there a guy -- willie brown, something

alleged in california politics with a column saying, yes, i dated kamala harris. like every ex's nightmare. obviously racial overtones they had to deal wit rye away a version of birtherism. running against donald trump, how do you combat that if you're kamala harris? >> easily and i think she's n e navigated that well. put forth in the midterms and what their staffs look like, the gop is increasingly out of step with the growing rising majority if the country and looking like an anachronism didn't get married early like elizabeth warren and other candidates pap long dating history, people will come out but i am salivating for the

opportunity when somebody brings up her relationship part and willie brown, when you have the president of the united states and his sketchy past in relationships. a space she'll navigate well has a very diverse backgrounds mother south asian, father jamaican the crowd reflected that looked more like america look at the maga rallies and contrast it to, i remember the swearing in at the house had the chance to be on the house floor and look at the crowd. the democratic side, a rainbow of all people and look across the aisle, a sea of old, white men. i think the republicans, if they wantany chance at being competitive in 2020 they're going to have to address some of these issues not necessarily in the white house, even with senate seats coming up. they have to start and look to the rest of america. >> jake, there has been a debate inside the democratic party about you know, kamala harris firm when you talk to her privately on one side of this dee debate she'll say a woman, you know, of color in california and a white

woman in ohio, they care about the same things. both trying to feed their families that the democratic coalition shouldn't make the mistake of overlearns from 2016 we're still waiting on biden and bernie, the white men of the democratic field in addition to being the bs. where do you think the party will come down on that debate? >> good question i think there isn't necessarily a demographic play when it comes to the candidate to winning back some of those voters in wisconsin, ohio, michigan, and across the midwest voters democrats had lost a lot of people would argue it's a message issue. not necessarily a demographic issue. i do think a lot of the trump coalition, curious what jonathan thinks about this, but the trump coalition that came out and voted republican for the first time in so many years.

did so because they thought trump was a candidate who was uniquely qualified to break gridlock and cut these kinds of deals in washington and what we're seeing now is he's not been able -- he's not been able to do that and not the only one who could get these deals done in fact, he has the same sort of gridlock other candidates had experienced before him i think that's one tool stripped from donald trump and taken out of his arsenal and interesting to see how voters react to that. >> do you think democrats who switched -- >> people who thought trump was uniquely qualified to take care some of the gridlock. >> a bit iffy. i don't think it's true. a study came out from priston, ucla, and hostile views on race. we have a narrative, the economy. he'd going to drain swamp. obviously not proven. >> and obama, if they were

racist >> that's the question -- >> what kind of campaign did donald trump run pushed those racial buttons. >> voting for obama does not absolve somebody. >> not saying it does. i hadn't seen that study it that was the primary motivation and obama voters switching to trump, that's just as surprising. >> an interesting question a lot of people raised that point. i'm eager to address it. some people say, i'm not racist. i voted for obama but that's just not true. you can still hold racist views. a lot of people raised that question, but i highly recommend the study. you have a highly represe lly re research it was not the economy, it was the race. >> and a high profile of bernie sanders who struggled with his issue in 20916

he remains a critic issues of race while important are not as determinant as that of class big into diversity but views are not sympathetic to working people whether white or black or latino my main belief we need to bring together a coalition of people around a kroggive agenda, which is prepared to take on a powerful ruling class. he says this is my view. jonathan swan, do you think it hurts in the primary has to. >> it may. we're seeing a corrective to that with elizabeth warren she's clearly doing -- making a class argument and a race argument talking about racial inequities in a deliberate way, which bernie sanders didn't do in 2016 and also making -- to contrast her launch with kamala harris, it's interesting elizabeth warren is much more ideological, making a real argument about how america is organized and about real structural upheaval. we haven't seen that from kamala

harris yet and i think that she's going to, one of her big vulnerabilities, past as a prosecutor the new democratic party, she has spoken positively about i.c.e. on television there is video of that and now the new suspicion abolish i.c.e. that's an area of vulnerability. >> and some of the lines on crime, written by a republican with kamala harris, i think you're right. >> she told me in an interview she supports abolishes i.c.e aisle say that before that. >> and old footage of her saying i.c.e. is important and illegal immigrants, et cetera. >> clearly a conversation we could have for a very long time. up next, we'll speak live with michael caputo pap long history with roger stone about what's with roger stone about what's flex for his longtime friend means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop.

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ahead of his scheduled arraignment here in d.c. on tuesday, the question remains, will roger stone cooperate with robert mueller here's what he had to say about that in an interview this morning. >> that's a question i would have to, i'd have to determine after my attorneys have some discussion if there's wrongdoing by other people in the campaign that i know about, which i know of none, but if there is i would certainly testify honestly >> joining me now, longtime friend of roger stone, and a former trump campaign adviser michael caputo thanks for being here.

i want start with that exact question do you think knowing roger stone he will end up cooperating with the special counsel? >> well, i have to go with what roger said today if there's some additional information that the special counsel wants that somebody else has comitted a crime, someone else working on the campaign that he is not aware of at this point i'm sure he would testify honestly, but the indictment tends to be pointed upward, it seems, and roger is convinced, as many of us are, they really want somebody to bring donald trump into this whole mess, and that's something roger is not willing to do. to do that he'd have to tell a lie. >> do you think there's any circumstance under which roger stone would crack a plea deal and plead guilty to mueller? >> if you recall, there's, if you look at it now, there's no -- he's not being indicted or

charged on anything with his, like, time in the barrel tweet that everybody was discussing on a daily basis. no discussion of his guccifer 2.0 communications they were leading the news for a lot of weeks there's no discussion of him having any direct contact to, with wikileaks that's not in the indictment anywhere now they're drilling on statements and e-mails, the fact -- looking at some things that are a little thin for example, with credico, he said he contacted him by phone but not e-mail, and this is in a house testimony, but, in fact, they discovered some e-mails seems like kind of a thin accusation also they are saying that roger was being, had a go between between him and wikileaks. roger had testified that it was credico and now they're charging him it was also corsi. of course, course hay had zero contact with wikileaks so i think where roger -- >> i realize jerome corsi

claimed that, but how can you believe him when the series of coincidences based on communications that we know corsi had, things he knew about what were going to happen, what was going to happen in the news, turned out to be true and he turns around and insists, no, no i had no advance knowledge it was all a coincidence that's inplausible on its face. >> it is, but i think if you look back on the totality of jerry corsi's predictions about wikileaks he was wrong most of the time and also thought at the time it was going to be, you know, about the clinton foundation and things like that. of course, he was wrong a lot of the time if you remember, there was speculation of plenty about what the october surprise would be. some people got it right some people got wrong. most of the time jerry corsi was wrong. >> what's your sense of the exposure that steve bannon may have in all of this? he's been noted as one of the officials that perhaps communicated with roger stone?

>> well, we've seen e-mails in the press between roger and steve, and i haven't spoken to steve about this or roger about steve's exposure, but i know that steve has cooperated and in interviews he's had himself, and his name has come up i don't believe that we're going to see this pointing up to president donald trump directing someone as people are speculating now in the media. >> who in the campaign could have direct add senior trump official hoop on that list. you were part of the campaign. if not the president himself who else >> i wasn't part of the campaign at the time. i left the campaign in late june at that time there -- >> you still had a sense of who could have possibly been close enough to direct a senior trump campaign official toll say something like this. >> i see roger speculated it could be rick gates. i suspect any senior member of the leadership team there. there are four, five people at the top there, but roger insists it's not donald trump.

donald trump insists that it's not him. roger has said over and over again that he's never talked to the president of the united states or even during the campaign season about wikileaks or guccifer 2.0, and i'm going to go with roger on that. >> so far you've been saying that none of these people we've talked about tonight did anything wrong in the course of the campaign quickly, before we wrap up, did michael cohen do anything wrong in the course of the campaign? >> we've seen michael cohen plead guilty to crimes, and also plead guilty into what i think is not a crime this kind of bogus campaign finance violation. if michael cohen says that he's lying, i'm going to have to believe him. if he pleads guilt ty to lying about the trump tower negotiations, so, yeah, michael cohen is guilty of lying and probably guilty of other things but in the end, you know, roger stone's indictment is not as big as people thought it would be. it's not about direct contact to wikileaks. not about his prediction of the

podesta's time in the barrel not about his time with guccifer 2.0 3 roger said it's a lot about context in the e-mails and hopes to reveal those and especially this bit about campaign -- sorry, witness tampering with the witness when he said he was going to take away randy credico's dog if you see, once you see the way that randy credico and roger stone talked to each other in e-mails you'll find this was not an unusual turn of events. especially roger stone did not like the way that randy treated his dog. >> michael caputo, thanks very much for your insights much more on "kasie dc" in just a moment i've always been amazed by what's next.

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welcome back the "new york times" reports new concern about what lies ahead for the president in 2020. system of trump's 2016 aides are pessimistic. associated press poll on wednesday showed mr. trump's overall approval rating had fall on the 34% with support among relationships dipping below 80

jonathan swann, how much concern is there about these problems in the white house? bill crystal is arounding essentially argue we are this inflated sense of trump's stance and really he's fundamentally weaker this 34% number would support that. >> i haven't heard anyone internally worry about a primary challenger they assumption and you can argue whether it is collect correct or not but certainly among the people i've talked to around the president their assumption that he would crush anyone who tries to take him on in a republican primary. i don't think there is any concern about people like kasich and others you hear about. >> larry hogan governor of maryland. >>ive a never even heard his name mentioned among the circle around trump he's squarely thinking about democrats. he loves talking about the warren in particular he's mused privately about michael bloomberg but his head

is squarely in the election, not in the primary. >> i tend to be with jonathan and you look at a map and think there is no way that the president could lose a republican prime are you but holden is potentially thinking about it. >> i agree with jonathan think it is going to be really hard to fracture the republican party. they have been loyal to this president since the beginning despite so many countless scandals, even including possible collusion with a foreign adversary. so i don't know that people would be so willing to jump even from a sinking ship. i think he might be safe from a republican primary. >> i feel like i should disagree with them. >> say something contrarian. >> listen, i don't -- my view of the mueller report is that there is -- in my view there is a very narrow alvin of things that will surprise us totally and say oh my godky not believe he did that i think we're kind of seeing what the shape of the mueller report is going to be eventually look like. we know the players involved and

we know the general outlines of what went on in the 2016 campaign based on just the indictments that we've seen so far. >> question is -- >> -- yeah there are i just -- >> -- digital operation of the campaign -- >> all right tiffany across jonathan swann jake sherman we clearly have a lot to talk about thank you vu very much for joining us tonight. kp for what i need. oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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that does it for us tonight

here on "kasie dc. we'll be back next week from washington up next, msnbc's headliners. an in-depth look at facebook for now good night from washington."headliners". an in-depth look at facebook for now good night from washington \s >> i really think that the best is yet to come. >> mark zuckerberg's quest to connect the planet sparked a to life in a college dorm room. >> it exploded people were signing up left and right. >> the goal was to change the world but i do think it happened faster than anybody could have imagined. >> but the idea that brought together friends and friends ever friends grew to make more dangerous connections. >> it is important to realize the russian troll factory walked through facebook's front door. >> facebook is the