sign-up.axios.com. >> that does us this morning. "morning joe," everyone, starts right now. >> is russia still targeting the u.s., mr. president. we expect russia will continue to wage its information war against democracies. >> the whole russia thing is a hoax, a terrible hoax. >> not only have the russians continued to do it in 2018, they have continued to adapt their model. >> the agreement says there will be total denuclearization. >> we agree north korea will sees their wmd capabilities. >> we have a lot of progress not reported by the media. >> and unlikely to give up their production and nuclear production capabilities. >> i ended a horrible week, iran nuclear deal. >> and is iran -- >> at the moment, technically,

they're in compliance. >> we have won against isis. we have beaten them and beaten them badly. >> while isis is nearing territorial defeat in syria, they are returning to their roots. >> knocking the hell out of isis. >> isis still commands thousands of fighters in iraq and syria. >> a lot of contrast between president trump's rhetoric on big foreign policy issues and what the senate had to say yesterday for worldwide threat assessments hearing. one issue noybly absent, the border with mexico. trump and his intelligence chiefs did not once mention the need for a wall along the southern border president trump portrayed as the single most pressing need for the country. >> more specifically, you're talking about national security threats for america.

not only do they not talk about the wall, they didn't talk specifically about the southern border. >> or caravans. >> nor should they. or caravans. crossings again have been going down for well over a decade, illegal drugs you can ship directly to john heilemann's abode. >> please. >> actually goes through legal ports of entry, his in 1967 as an illegal port of entry. >> an app. a special custom app in partnership with fedex. >> but, it is -- willie, what's so fascinating is what donald trump said is more in line with what vladamir putin said and what he would say on all of those issues opposed to what the head of america's fbi, america's cia, america's dni, all of

america's military. american leaders have one view of the world. vladamir putin has another view of the world. if you look at those issues yesterday, donald trump's lineup far closer with vladamir putin's than they do with the head of the fbi, the cia, the director of national intelligence. >> people protecting america. >> all republicans by the time who donald trump appointed. >> and the view of russia's threat to the united states, ongoing threat, by the time, as they said yesterday, has been consistent with our intelligence agencies from the beginning. president trump has been in contrast with them for years now. we talk a lot on this show about institutions holding and what does that mean in this age of trump? yesterday, we saw institutions holding. saw the head of the cia and fbi and director of national intelligence sitting at an open hearing signaling to the american people and the world, beach still got this and here

they are despite what the president said. >> we have national affairs analyst for msnbc and cohost, john heilemann. >> now with the app makes it a lot easier for the dea to follow him around. >> roger stone melting down when you were bringing up certain issues with him is worth noting and looking at. >> especially with the flashing in si incisors and foaming mouth. >> also, republican strategist and msnbc political analyst, and cofounder and axios analyst. we will talk about one more thing, billionaires going wild, freaking out about elizabeth warren and her proposed tax plan, we give you that ahead. >> i can say this, we see,

willie, jim vanderhyde, axios had a big year on twitter. what i thought about at 2:00 in the morning, slept well last night, it's really not fair you look at their income streaming and compare to other platform, half of their 25 million in revenue, as it always does, comes from the mike allen swimsuit calendar. >> stop. >> by the time, this year, it's gone exclusively at -- >> i won't get any sleep tonight. >> troubling. >> you guys, it's multiplatform. you have holograms, you have the calendar itself. >> we have this fancy backdrop. see that? it's not those rich mahogany bookcases you have but sleep

white. >> can we do the news? >> you're talking about trump aligning with putin a lot more? >> yes. >> look at this. >> the white house acknowledged president trump and russian president vladamir putin informally met at beunos aires at the g20 summit but a new report acknowledges their conversation was longer, no substantive and included no american personnel. in november, trump pointedly cancelled his scheduled meeting with putin. >> almost like a trend here, a fear that the president of the united states ever has an american listening to his conversations with vladamir putin. >> with putin. >> almost. >> okay. it happens all the time. >> in november he cancelled his meeting with putin due to russia's provocative action to ukrainian ships and sailors. trump tweeted, i look forward to a meaningful meeting again as

soon as this situation is resolved. but the leaders huddled for several minutes at the end of an evening event with no translator or notetaker from the u.s. side to record what was said. >> susan, here's another thing. why is it that the translator's never from the american side. if it is always to be one translator, always a translator for vladamir putin but never a translator for the american side? >> because president trump does not trust the intel community, he does not trust his own staff. this goes back to jared kushner wanted to back channel with the russians right after the russians and wanted as an open line of communication. he has now said, i will find it. he doesn't care if he's not updating his security team or intel team. that's also what's good about yesterday's hearing, those

members of the intel community said we are going to be honest, we are going to be straightforward with the american public and we are not afraid of donald trump. >> they have lied time and time again. i remember, i mean, the guy, i said this before, march of 2017, asking mark halperin, quiet upset all around, this is when the whole russian thing started to percolate, he said, don junior for one. i said, what, don junior, does he not have a hunting license in idaho? you and mark and others did extraordinary reporting about all these contacts with russians that donald trump and the whole team have been lying about now for two years. >> it's pretty amazing the extent of it and the reporting

cataloging how much it's been. to susan's point a second ago, i put a donald trump spin on this, donald trump doesn't trust his community and there is a reason why american presidents even in one-on-ones in the past, do one-on-ones with other presidents and heads of state, always have someone on their side there because the rest of the government needs to know what's said in that meeting and to keep later accounts honest from the other side. trump, for whatever reason, whatever he's talking to with vladamir putin is stuff he does not want any american to know about. that raises all kind of -- a slightly chilling thing this happens every time he meets with putin and not reported or read out to the press and has no one from the american government ever present. that pattern is truly unsettling and disturbing.

>> jim, that pattern has been with us a long time. remember when he invited in the russian foreign minister and russian ambassador of the united states to brag about the fact he fired jim comey and they didn't have anything to worry about anymore and the pressure had been taken off the russian investigation, he excluded american reporters from that meeting but allowed russians in. >> yeah. i've got a lot of friends and family members who are like, wait, other presidents have done this. didn't obama do this with putin? no is the answer. i can't remember a single time in history one of our leaders has met with adversary multiple times there's nobody on the american side taking any notes or there to tell other people in the government what actually transpired. it's just plain weird. you juxtapose that with what you were talking about the top of the show. this idea of the intelligence community or apparatus or

federal government saying the opposite what their boss says about isis or russia. that doesn't happen. it's never happened with this level of consistency where they break, based on data and intelligence from what the president says rhetorically in public. those two things, they might not be impeachable and they might not be enough to move trump voters, but they are just plain weird and they break from historical precedent. >> so the report -- >> quickly -- >> yeah. >> this isn't like obama's deep state. >> no. >> these are all republicans, all appointed by donald trump, christopher wray, as we heard yesterday, was suggested by governor chris christie, jena was not a republican pick,

running the cia. republican ambassador and republican through and through also picked by donald trump, confirmed by -- these are all republicans saying what the president is telling you is just a lie. what the president is telling you is not what's happening in the world. it's happening time and time again. even the dhs secretary said that vladamir putin and russia pose a direct threat to american democratic. she said it under testimony, she said it on capitol hill. seriously. he just keeps denying and denying what everybody in his government and in the military are saying. >> so, some more details from this report, not independently confirmed by nbc news, people who had direct knowledge of the encounter or were briefed on it,

claims the discussion occurred at a theater as world leaders and their spouses were streaming out of the building, president trump accompanied by his wife, melania, but no staff and president trump with his translator, the four sat at a table and were among the last to leave. a russian government leader tells the financial times the two speak about 15 minutes about a number of foreign policy issues, including the sea incident with ukraine and conflict in syria. they also discussed when they could have a formal meeting the official said. the white house declined formal comment. this is incredible. >> 15 minutes pales to what we have seen before, two hours at helsinki with no translators, no national security of advisor or secretary of state to be next to

donald trump. think of those two narrators. donald trump and vladamir putin trying to explain exactly what happened and no account what happened in that room. imagine you were president trump, a person under investigation for working with russia. your campaign worked with russia. what would you do as a pr matter? wouldn't you have as many people in a room as you could? wouldn't you have translators and advisors? >> somebody from your country. >> of course i don't have a strange relationship with vladamir putin, it's all out in the open. he's doing the exact opposite. >> not only that, the story sourced by a russian official. this wasn't coming from u.s. sources. this is russia saying, we are going to interfere even more with this president by doing this. >> john heilemann, what this shows us is, again, the russians, at every one of these meetings, have all the read-outs. they know what goes on in these meetings so they can prepare in the future. i love what jim vandehei says,

this never happens. never happens repeatedly like this, especially it keeps happening. usually, a president is not allowed to talk to anybody without having somebody there, without getting the full notes back to the state department, back to the national security advisor so they can plan their strategy towards a country that sees the united states of america as an enemy. we may see the russians as an adversary, vladamir putin sees the united states as an enemy. >> donald trump is in no position to dispute anything they said. trump says, that didn't happen in the meeting. he's never done that. if he ever did, found himself in a situation the return media side spun in a certain way, that

i don't happen, he has no recourse from any other person that was there, i have notes from the meeting, the national security advisor never said this, he's in a position now he's vulnerable to russian spin and misinformation and puts himself in a situation he can be privately manipulated by vladamir putin and brings us back to the large questions here, what is it vladamir putin has on donald trump that compels him to allow -- for vladamir putin to call the shots how these meetings are set up and why does donald trump cap pit late over and over again. capitulate -- >> and what is happening with helsinki where donald trump says, i take the word of an ex-kbg agent over my own hand-picked fbi director, my own hand-picked director of national

against, my own hand-picked joint chiefs of staff. my own hand-picked national security establishment. my own hand-picked -- you can go down the list -- jim vandehei, you talk about your relatives, i can talk about my relatives when issues like this come up. i wonder how voters, especially in your home state of wisconsin, which seems to me to be sort of the florida florida of 2020, it is really the state that determines whether donald trump has any chance of repeating again in 2020. what are people in wisconsin saying? how do they square up the fact donald trump is siding with vladamir putin on issues regarding russia and suria a and -- and syria and north korea and the fbi director and cia

director and director of national intelligence and republican hand-picked donald trump employees? >> there's not a ton of evidence trump is losing that much support from his base. i don't know they're watching this like we are, saying, my gosh, i'm connecting these dots and don't want to support donald trump. >> shouldn't they? >> they should be. you could watch the first 15 minutes and say, geez, you guys are all very conspiratorial. there is nothing that is not a fact so far. on capitol hill yesterday, you have republicans saying it would be dangerous to do what donald trump said in syria. who wants us to get out of syria precipitously? vladamir putin. that's about it. it may be turkey, may be a few others that want us out precipitously. wait a minute, you shouldn't do that. republicans on the hill who tend to back him on anything, no, we

don't agree to that either. you have to pay attention. yes, they're not all linked but all counter to how we've done business in washington and government, you have to zero in on it and start to ask those questions. why? go back, what does vladamir putin have over trump? that used to be very conspiratorial when you say it. we now know if you listen to rudy guiliani and people in this white house, there was potential activity going on, a potential business deal throughout the campaign for trump to have a property in moscow, coordination between michael cohen, his right hand person and moscow. moscow knew that. putin knew that. putin knows every single thing that happens in rush, contact that happens and that is one thing you would have dangling over him. >> it is. there are so many coincidences. if you're sitting at a craps table and somebody rolls snake

eyes once, but if they do it 47 times in a row, the die are loaded, right? >> it's very concerning. >> anybody here watch sherlock. >> yeah. >> there's that amazing scone where the older brother is yelling in sherlock's brain and what do we say about coincidence, sherlock, sherlock respond, the universe is rarely so lazy. these are not coincidences. you can go all the way back to donald trump on this show in december of 2015, saying vladamir putin was a stronger leader than american leaders and he didn't care he assassinated people, that u.s. troops in iraq killed people, too. go back to that. it's one after another after another example. after a while, the coincidences,

there is no explanation here. again, on what vladamir putin wants the most, taking over the middle east. getting the united states out of syria. donald trump is the only person in washington, d.c. other than rand paul, he doesn't really count, does he, that wants us out of syria. >> the thing i keep coming back to, it's not an america first policy, a donald trump policy. >> it's a russia first policy. >> it is always about donald trump. it always comes back to that. any time you want to know why does he have a secret one-on-one with vladamir putin or does any of the things he does, he does it because it is in his best interests and hopefully we will learn more about what those interests are. >> jim vandehei, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," new polling says voters have more faith in democrats than the president and republicans including over border security. >> more confidence in nancy

pelosi. >> absolutely. than donald trump. >> nancy wins big time on that one. >> running against nancy pelosi, that really worked for you republicans last time. try that again. plus, senator elizabeth warren takes on the wealthiest people in america and they are freaking out including former starbucks howard schultz who will be on later on. >> bill karins was a little upset coming in here, not because he has billions of dollars he's hiding in the caymens, this polar vortex everyone is talking about. >> about five years ago the media caught onto that and everyone is making a big deal of that. going back to the late 1800s, nothing new, this catchy fraiph,

and get really cold outbreaks. a piece broke off over minneapolis and chicago this morning and have over 100 million people under wind chill warnings or advisors. yesterday, the lowest i saw was negative 66 in minnesota. that is pretty extreme and chicago at negative 45, why schools are canceled throughout this region. today is the peak of it, the worst of it and will get warmer. across the northeast, snow squalls and wind chills 5 in new york and nothing compared to anything 27 in chicago and minneapolis, negative 39. we will quickly see things getting a lot warmer. negative 27 in minneapolis, 44 by sunday. temperature goes up 70 degrees by this upcoming weekend for super bowl sunday.

this is a short-lived really extreme cold weather event. in some places like chicago, this is the coldest we've seen in 20 to 25 years. chicago's negative 27, you're about negative 19 this morning, not going to hit that record today. you will have one more chance tomorrow. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be ri. you can do this. here we go! [ring] discover. hi. i like your card. i love all the cashback and security features, but i'm not going to pay an annual fee. i'm just not going to do it! okay. okay? discover has no annual fee on any of our cards. so it wasn't my tough guy act? no. we just don't have any annual fees. that's a relief. i've been working on that for a long time. if we had talked a month ago, that would have been a whole different call. i can imagine. excuse me, sir. can i please have no annual fee? no annual fee on any card. only from discover.

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come out with, you know, a ridiculous plan of taxing wealthy people a surtax of 2% because it makes a good headline or sends out a tweet when she knows for a fact it's not something that will ever be passed, this is what's wrong. you can't just attack these things in a punitive way by publishing people. >> warren responded to the criticism, tweeting, what's ridiculous is billionaires who think they can buy the presidency to keep the system rigged for themselves while opportunity slips away for everybody else. the top 0.1%, who'd pay my #ultra millionaire wealth own about the same wealth as 90% of america. it's time for change. this is the sort of thing people thought they would be getting with donald trump, this sort of populism, where he was going to

level the playing field a bit. i'm not so sure this is not going to be extremely popular in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, ohio, in a lot of places across america. >> certainly among the people who decide who the democratic presidential nominee is. if i was elizabeth warren, i would be sending thank you notes to mike bloomberg and howard schultz right now. they gave her an in-kind campaign contribution now. this is the best boost she's had for her campaign in a while. howard schultz is understood and will be on the show today, understands his posture puts him out of step where the democratic party is. a lot of people point at mike bloomberg and rightly say he's done a lot of good work on climate change and gun control. that gives him some standing to run as a democrat. his biggest vulnerability he is

a plutocrat. he is entitled to his view on tax rates and he is ex-exacerbating his vulnerability as most democrats who will be on her side about the super rich paying more taxes. >> democrats, a, are not in the mood to hear it right now and, b, not in the mood to hear it from two billionaires. >> let's go to our reporter to talk about this. has there ever been a time in history that attack this concept and impacts the economy? >> no. mike bloomberg says it's unconstitutional. this is always the problem for mike bloomberg where he stands on economic issues, focus on the

national debt when democrats do not want to talk about that. we can argue republicans don't want to talk about it either. the mike bloomberg i saw yesterday in new hampshire looked like the mike bloomberg speaking at the republican national convention dismissing it as socialism. while he's made a lot of inroads among progressives for a couple of issues, this will always be his problem, particularly running in a democratic primary, elizabeth warren's idea may be impractical in terms of getting it passed through congress and now exactly is it going to be administered. she was on msnbc recently talking about how she would look at assets not just within the united states for her tax. if you want to put some money in switzerland or an island somewhere she will also find that and levy a tax on that. there are key questions how it will work. in terms of mike bloomberg and

howard schultz, this is not a good look going forward. this is a gift to elizabeth warren. >> willie, a fox news poll showed 70% of americans support -- 70% of americans support increasing for taxes for people with incomes over $10 million. 65% incomes over $1 million and 44% incomes over $250,000. aoc was getting some attention for raising a 70% tax for the money earned over -- >> over 10 million. >> $10 million, republicans painted as a radical idea. i would say about 90% of americans would say, sounds about right to me. if they want to pretend -- >> i can't imagine -- >> if they want to pretend that that's not where people are right now, that's fine.

we have had such a vast accumulation of wealth by such a small sector of society, we have also had -- we have also had -- made great strides when it comes to poverty, not only in this country but across the world. but, again, the accumulation of wealth and the difference between what a ceo made in 1965 and what the ceo's worker made in 1965 compared to now is just outrageous. >> there aren't a lot of people who will be weeping for howard schultz or mike bloomberg as they make the case against this. they understand because the argument has been made by elizabeth warren over the last decade the inequality in this country is so bad and so unsustainable. you have watched candidates go through new hampshire, what is

the feeling? is it the elizabeth warren vibe or is there a lane if he could make the case, for a mike bloomberg or howard schultz or someone from the center, like joe biden? >> i will make two different point. number one, this is a party that wants someone of a now reality of the base. it may not be a younger person, but younger idea. a party moving away from the clinton name for the first time in 25 years. they want to know what's new, what's next, what's exciting. at the same time, i hear again and again, electability, beating donald trump is, i think, the defining issue when we get to the fall and new hampshire primary. almost remind me of 2004, we were dating dean before he married kerry. i will say something highly controversial, in the summer of 2015, this show was all over

cable news talking about how to watch donald trump, he could be the front-runner for structural reasons, and he's interesting. i got ridiculed for that. will say something kind of crazy. democrats obviously need to or want to nominate a woman or minority. the front-runner is mike bloomberg structurally, because of the dynamic that played out with donald trump in 2016, where he got 30% of the pie in every state except for south carolina, and able to build some momentum. mike bloomberg right now does not represent the democratic party for the reasons we just said. does he represent 20, 25%? he does. he has the ability to execute on that idea. that's why i think he's probably actually the most interesting person in this race right now. he had a very good trip to new hampshire and iowa a couple weeks ago. he's far from the nominee for any reasons and the most structurally interesting person in this race.

is that because some of those progressive candidates carve up the progressive slice of the pie because there are a lot of candidates? >> exactly. kamala harris clearly has a lot of advantages. elizabeth warren has a lot of advantages but they will carve up that progressive pie so much, when we get down to it and democrats look at electability, mike bloomberg might have his own lane even when he is not clearly the cup of tea for a lot of progressives around the country. >> he has an incredible track record in terms of what he did for new york city. >> "boston globe"'s reporter, james, please come back. after the shutdown, new polls shows republicans siding with democrats when it comes to security. we will look at it next on "morning joe."

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now, we have new polling that says voters have more faith in democrats than the president and republicans.

asked by quinnipiac university on the poll who do you trust more on issues important to you. 49% say house speaker nancy pelosi. 42% say president trump. trust in pelosi, 50% to 41%, as to who is responsible for the government shutdown, 56% say trump and progressional republicans, 44% blame the democrats. and when asked whether a wall with mexico would significantly decrease violent crime -- joe, any relationship between polls like this and mitch mcconnell not speaking out for quite some time in relation to syria and disagreeing with the president? >> i think so. mitch mcconnell thought willie, it was pretty extraordinary,

mitch mcconnell, republicans were as aggressive as they were. donald trump is just melting down. his poll numbers -- those poll numbers, republicans have never seen -- >> they can read. >> -- a poll where nancy pelosi is four ahead of a national leader, republican especially. also, they have to be hearing from their base and their contributors and a lot of traditional conservatives saying, wait a second, we're turnings sir yo over to putin and a general hanging out. i thought maybe somebody would want to jump in, i'm hanging there. >> sometimes a dramatic pause. >> or to keep going. >> he also said the famous line, there's no education the second kick of a mule, asked about the possibility of a shutdown in two

weeks, there's certainly no education in the third kick of a mule. what are we doing talking about another shutdown? what's interesting, there was a report a couple days ago, the white house presented president trump, his senior advisors with pact of polling that says the shutdown worked for him. >> unbelievable. >> i confirmed that with the white house. they said, we don't think another shutdown is a good idea but we have numbers internally saying his numbers dropped a little but not as much as portrayed in the national poll. nancy pelosi's numbers went down in complete contrast to the polling we just showed there. they believe it, that that wasn't such a bad thing for him, those 35 days weren't so bad for the president. >> i want to add one other thing the republicans on the hill are also very concerned about. it's what they don't know when it comes to robert mueller. the stone indictment, and this investigation, republicans are

very nervous being so tied to the president. it's not there yet but they want to be able to break away and breakfast. >> yep. >> john heilemann, what you're seeing from mcconnell apart from everything, we are going to run into this deadline the end of this period having the government funded. you will have another conversation. it's unlikely anything will come out of these negotiations. i think mcconnell is setting the predicate for resuming the conversation with president trump, dude, if you don't open the government, we will have 75 people on the senate side and much of my conference will turn against you. that conversation will have to be renewed and i think mcconnell, along with everything else is playing the groundwork not to do this again. i think he's starting to let trump know that's where the conversation is going. >> when polls show higher

numbers of republicans want to see a republican challenge donald trump in the primary, some polls are starting to show. we're not quite at 50% yet, but more and more republicans are saying, yeah, i'd kind of like to see another republican that i'd at least have a chance to look at. that's something we saw way back at ole miss, everybody, all the republicans were loyal to donald trump. you say, would you like to see a primary challenger? they were like, yeah, mike pence, yeah, maybe, nikki haley, yeah, maybe. i'm not so sure people aren't starting to hear that in town hall meetings at home. still ahead, susan mentioned the roger stone indictment, long time trump ally pled ng with roger mueller's russia probe and here to talk about that and other developments in the investigation. inve stigation.

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all right. the democrats announce stacey abrams, who narrowly lost georgia's governor's race last year, will deliver the response to president trump's "state of the union" address. they were very delight when she accepted. she is weighing her next step for a possible run in 2020 against the republican from georgia. she announced it tweeting our nation needs to hear from leaders who can unite for a common purpose, i am honored to be delivering the democratic state of the union response. what do you think, susan? >> i think it was a brilliant choice for democrats to do it.

she was a star in 2018, no sign of it fading. she is showing the democratic party and voters there that they care about what african-american women think. that is such a strong voting block, it really will make a difference for them in the primary and election. >> it is a fascinating thing the way our world works now, the three biggest stars to emerge from the mid-terms are people that all lost. they are all genuine stars with great candidate field. she will be player going forward. whoever the democratic nominee is, she will be on the short list to be a running mate, a person who has enormous popularity in georgia, not quite enough to win this time around, a compelling figure and someone very much in tune with the party's demographics and aspirational message at this moment. still ahead, president trump

is tweeting this morning after top intel chiefs talk about things like isis, russia, north korea and more. former secretary of state, madeline albright, will be here to weigh in on that. plus, "washington post," robert costa joins us to discuss what lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are doing to try to avoid another government shutdown next month. "morning joe" back in a moment. . "morning joe" back in a moment i think it will fit. want a performance car that actually fits your life? introducing the new 2019 ford edge st. capability meets power. in the first suv from the ford performance team.

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we assess that foreign actors will view the 2020 u.s. elections as an opportunity to advance their interests. we expect them to refine their capabilities and add new tactics as they learn from each other's experiences and efforts in previous elections. >> director of national intelligence, sam coats, yesterday, on his agency's assessments of foreign influence on the upcoming 2020 elections. >> dan coats again, a republican senator, republican ambassador, appointed by donald trump to run the intelligence community. he is running the intelligence community. and he actually reads everything

that comes in and draws the conclusions. he has come to the same conclusion, that the fbi director that donald trump selected, chris ray came to, that the cia director, came to, the chairman of the joint chiefs came to, military intelligence came to, everybody in the united states government that has to do with running foreign policy an national intelligence all came to the conclusion russia is a threat to american democracy. of course, the man who is commander in chief who appointed all those people is still calling it a hoax in fact. 92 a different point of view. >> and we will get to the tweets. welcome back. it is wednesday, january 30th,

my daughter's birthday. happy birthday, amelia. we have national affairs analyst, john heilemann. "new york times" bureau chief and political reporter for the post and analyst of washington week of pbs, robert costa and national reporter carol lee is with us and msnbc contributor, noah rossman, out with a new book, "the unmaking of america". >> we have five of these for amelia for her birthday, she's so excited. >> we will get to noah's book in just a moment and the whole premise, which is quite provocative. first, america's intelligence officials appeared before the senate yesterday for its annual worldwide threat assessments

hearing. their testimony was in stark contrast to the president's. >> we expect russia will continue to wage its information war against democracies. >> the whole russia thing is a hoax, a terrible hoax. >> not only have the russians continued to do it in 2018, we see an indication they're continuing to adapt their model. >> the agreement says there will be total denuclearization. nobody wants to report that. >> we currently assess north korea will seek to retain its wmd capabilities. >> we have made a lot of progressive not reported by the media. >> it is unlikely to give up its nuclear production and nuclear capabilities. >> i ended the horrible week iran nuclear deal. >> is iran abiding by the terms of the nuclear activities? >> at the moment, technically,

they're in compliance. >> we have won against isis. we have beaten them and beaten them badly. while isis is nearing territorial attack in syria, the group is returning to their territorial roots. >> we're knocking the hell out of isis. >> isis continues to have thousands of fighters in syria. this morning, the president is weighing in again with his own rebuttal to his intelligence agencies. when i became president, isis was out of control in syria and running rampant. since then tremendous progress made especially over the last five weeks. caliphate will soon be destroy, unthinkable two years ago, negotiations, i think he meant are proceeding well in afghanistan after 18 years of fighting. fighting continues but the people of afghanistan want peace in this never ending war. we will soon see if talks will be successful.

no testing, getting remains, hostages returned. decent chance of denuclearization. at the end of the previous administration, relationships were horrendous and very bad things were about to happen. now, a whole different story. i look forward to seeing kim jong-un soon. progress being made. you don't have to be a nuclear physicist to figure this out, the president saw the intelligence leaders refuting his entire foreign policy and back making his case not on fact but his view of the world. >> how about the man who run on a position of strength is weak time and time again. >> noah, yes, things weren't going well with barack obama and the past presidents because none

of them gave him a victory without having to do anything. he's showing extraordinary weakness and they're loving it. weakness across the globe. afghanistan, the taliban. ryan crocker wrote this so-called peace treaty, it smells a lot like the paris peace accords after vietnam, that it's a complete capitulation to the taliban, who were torturing and killing young little girls for trying to seek a third or fourth grade education. it is unspeakable. the on for policy announcements of donald trump and what he's trying to do. isn't it fascinating? in every case, retreat, retreat, surrender, retreat. my greatest fear is it will be

popular. we are succumbing from a level of exhaustion from engagement in foreign affairs in an extraverted fashion north korea wants to hear they're denuclearizing when they're not and we're helping the kim regime to take its place in the world and withdrawing from syria because no one wants to engage in syria but it is a necessity, where the taliban, quote unquote islamic emirate of afghanistan, and we're negotiating with them with the 2001 leadership, many of whom were released from guantanamo bay and interlocutors and they control more territory than any time since the invasion and continue -- >> this week, what has donald trump done he always accused barack obama and other past presidents of doing? showing his hand. guess what, we're retreating, getting out of afghanistan, get

the troops out now and then you will start negotiations? it's like paris and negotiating with ho chi minh. >> they're negotiating from a position of strength and we're negotiating from a position of weakness. the parallels are so erie to south vietnam where we had an not guilty on the pakistani border where we can't really disrupt their operations and they're positioned very well-to-do what they did in the late 1990s and retake a lot of territory once they leave. >> i found it very interesting mitch mcconnell and a lot of republicans finally found their voice. >> came out of nowhere. >> on syria, of all things. i'm not exactly sure why that is. >> we'll take it. >> other than the fact that the position of turning syria over to vladamir putin, russia and

iran, i would guess has to be unpopular with the republican base. >> when mcconnell spoke yesterday, he's been fairly quiet about donald trump after two years of the presidency. i do think after the government shutdown we're starting to see more cracks with the republicans in the senate and donald trump. it was a good thing he did yesterday. he doesn't normally speak out on foreign policy and said we're a global leader and making amendments saying he does not want precipitous withdrawal from syria and afghanistan. i think this is perhaps the beginning, always looking for a sign of a break with republicans on the hill, a public break from trump, and i think this might be

the beginning. >> and after secretary mattis left, secretary mattis had written a letter saying, i don't agree with your policies. your policies are bad for america's national security. the next day, mitch mcconnell came out saying, donald trump, you need to appoint somebody that shares the same policy views with the secretary, a guy who had just attacked donald trump. >> and mitch mcconnell just speaking up, silent for 34 days of the government shutdown. i think he knows how bad it was for him and republicans, they heard about it. maybe he will rise and lift up his voice a little more. if you listen to the testimony yesterday from he heads of intelligence, a 42 page report. and what we heard from the

testimony, it's sort of a wider critique of the president's world view and policy talking about unilateralism being bad for the country and trade, and straining our alliances with long time allies. if you read through the report, of president trump. >> right. what was so devastating about that the way this played out for president trump, you hear him talk about foreign policy, it's from the gut, what he thinks should be happening, how he wishes the world was functioning. and put that against these officials his appointees, going through a very fact-based analysis of the world. really contradicting him on everything, not only the status of the world, isis and north korea and syria. the problem that sets up for the

president is he likes to talk about things in this wishful thinking kind of way. yet, all of the facts are lined up against him. he and others have reported for a number of weeks, north korea is just not denuclearizing. there is a clip that he says, north korea will completely denuclearize. then a decent chance they will denuclearize. there's a constant moving of the goalpost that syria was a breaking point for them. you have that, coupled with this hearing yesterday in this report. it's really hard to see the president be able to hold the line the way he has in the past two years. >> bob costa, what are you hearing on the hill, especially given polls are showing a lack of faith in the presidency, a show of faith for nancy pelosi. does this give republicans and mitch mcconnell a little bit of a place to step away from president trump, especially at

times it's pretty clear the base may not approve? >> mika, there are certainly signs congressional republicans at the capitol in the last few days are trying to assert themselves, whether watching these hearings on the government shutdown and trying to prevent another standoff in mid-february. mcconnell, the republican leader trying to let the the new lawmakers control the process. they would like to see this group work a new deal. that's an important point. it's been jared kushner at the white house. and senator graham. now, congressional leaders have pulled back. we ended the shutdown, let this process play out. it's already being challenged. senator graham including his own ideas of a debt limit height. the president tweeted if there's no wall he doesn't want to deal with it and a waste of time

before the committee even met. >> do you even have mitch mcconnell continuing to assert himself, basically saying, yeah, we won't allow the mule to kick us the third time. >> i think you probably do. there's a variety of reasons for that. one of the primary ones, the president's political stage, measured by public opinion polls for sure, after effects of the mid-terms, the president's standing with his party is appreciably weakened than the first two years of his term, not to say he doesn't have a strong basis point. mitch mcconnell's attitude towards trump is directly tied to how strong the president is politically. you think about the mid-terms and shutdown and risks the shutdown imposes on mitch mcconnell's members and mitch mcconnell himself all factors into how much resistance, how

much assertiveness mcconnell will show going forward. mcconnell cannot afford at this moment to have another shutdown in strict political terms. i think he has already on a variety of fronts starting to push back more on trump than we've seen in the first two years of the term and you will see that more and more as trump gets weaker. >> another thing absent, as nbc news notes, the intelligence chiefs did not once mention the need for a wall along the southern border. nor did they talk about the southern border being a threat for terrorists streaming across or drugs streaming across. it didn't make it in their top 10 countdown. >> right. as we have repeatedly reported with our fact check. there is no evidence of a crisis of the southern border intelligence chief either.

even this morning a few minutes ago, trump was tweeting there's these three caravans surging towards the border. here we go again, more caravans. >> but i do think when saying, we're talking about a wall we shouldn't be talking. he tweeted the phrase, unless we're talking a wall, a physical barrier. i do think there is a compromise to semantics and the democrats call it fencing and he calls it a physical barrier and he can tell his supporters it is a wall, that might be a place for compromise with semantics. >> democrats and republicans, there's just not many places left to build a wall, as we know. in most places, it's not necessary. >> what's the possibility for a

compromise? >> they could come up with a compromise themselves and it's what the president will accept. we've seen before when he feels he's in retreat or handed a big defeat he lashes out. i think there are a lot of people looking to whether or not he will, the end of this deadline, decide forget it, we will fund a national emergency to get the border wall and fund the government just to get a win. i don't think anybody really knows. >> aren't we again in this spin cycle, where the president kind of walks away from the wall, doesn't get the wall funding he wanted. hears from conservatives he's a joke, caved, all these things and gets his back up again, we have to get the wall. how does this cycle end? i have to get the wall to keep my base, 30, 35%, how can he give up on that promise because that's really all he has right now? >> there is really no

compromise. this is face-saving, lost in the mid-terms and looking to demonstrate who is boss. he can capture the initiative. he told ann coulter, i really don't need you. he started with $35 billion, 10, 15, 12, $5.7, talking about steel slats. if he were to call democrats out for what they said during the course of the shutdown, we want border security to the tune of new access roads along the border, more personnel reports of entry and if he were to say that at the state of the union, give me that, he would sign that, give me everything you want, i think it will split the party because democrats don't want the border initiatives and split isis. if he were to do that, put pressure on the democrats it would be the face saving. >> the 60 million people voting

for him and chanting, build that wall as a central promises campaign. >> half of the media that supports donald trump at any and all turn is really not interested in the wall. it's what the protagonists want. if they want disarray, that's what they will support. >> bob, to repeat it for thousandth time, republicans were in charge two years. republicans time and again said they didn't want a wall. john cornyn said you can go up, through, or under the wall. lindsey graham said, that wall was a terrible investment. they never, when they owned washington, passed adequate funding for the wall for the president. the president didn't push for it. are we getting to a point now where this is just going to be a quaint oldie but goldie from the

2016 campaign and we can move on to actual issues that actually do impact border security? >> if republicans do choose to move on or wiggle out of this promise on the wall in some fashion, it's in part because the dynamics at the capitol have changed. think about senator david purdue of georgia, a top ally to president trump, his usual concern looking ahead to reelection in 2020, is a primary concern. that is always the concern if you're a georgia senator. now, not the same concern. stacey abrams who ran for senate in 2018 has been tapped for a response by the democrats, eyeing a possible bid in the senate. republicans are worried as they look ahead to 2020. is president trump enough to carry them across the finish line. they may have more than primary challenges to worry about even

in the south. those challenges, as you think about it in the coming weeks, where do they want to put their last stand. >> elisabeth, on the front page of the "new york times," the story about kamala harris who had a wonderful launch and then made the mistake of deciding to have a hometown meeting with jake tapper and found the medicare stick ir for all sometimes comes with pitfalls for all and say medicare for all. this is not the end of her campaign. it does suggests democrats think 2020 is going to be a walk in the park and you can promise everything to everybody and coast to the nomination, you're just kidding yourself because it's not going to happen. >> kamala harris and elizabeth warren and the other progressives, now with the

howard schultz and michael bloomberg are showing the real split in the democratic party, whether the party should go with a centrist moderate, joe biden or bloomberg or go with the progressive left. we don't know how it will pay out. there is a lot of passion on the progressive left, women and minorities, who can best beat donald trump and should he run for re-election, playing out as we speak. >> isn't it interesting another candidate stumbles on healthcare? this has been happening since 1992. we had hillary care, obamacare. the twists and torturous turns, back room deals with big pharma. back room deals with the hospital associations, this is such an extraordinarily

complicated issue healthcare reform, the fact you can slap a bumper sticker on it and survive a 20 month campaign is really madness. it is going to continue with candidates that try to make the most complicated domestic issue of our time the easiest. >> yes. we all would like medicare for all, wouldn't we? how about also taxes on millionaires. that again is very popular among the democratic base but again that's being challenged as well. >> medicare for all, fantastic, only one problem, medicare itself is insolvent. if you look over the next 10 or 20 years, there's not a single bipartisan group that doesn't look at medicare and medicaid and say, these are the two great biggest challenges of our time.

>> for other 2020 news, eric garcetti not running. >> he's a very popular guy out there. >> carol lee, thank you for being on. >> thank you. >> still ahead, madeleine albright, when she issued a warning about growing fascism she hoped her fears would prove to be exaggerated. the former secretary of state joins us to discuss where that warning stands today. "morning joe" will be right back. orning joe" will be right back with full service brokerage firms...again. and online equity trades are only $4.95... i mean you can't have low cost and be full service. it's impossible. it's like having your cake and eating it too. ask your broker if they offer award-winning full service and low costs. how am i going to explain this? if you don't like their answer, ask again at schwab.

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warning. it's out in paperback. if you haven't read it, you should. >> and ambassador 2011-2015, who served under president clinton. >> any relation? we said before we came on the air in conversation, we said about once a week -- said to mika, once every two weeks, okay, i get a feeling, i feel your pain what it must have been like when you were debating dr. brzezinski. the brzezinskis, the force is strong. big. >> it's definitely a term of respect. >> thank you. i'll take it as that. >> such a diplomat. >> on monday, was it monday? we talked about the dinner at

dr. brzezinski's house and mrs. brzezinski's home of relations in china and the ceremony the next day. talk about that time. what an extraordinary step forward. isn't that interesting with president carter's work and dr. brzezinski's work and your work, everybody is always so hyper focused on camp david, for good reasons. it was extraordinary. this changed the world in ways that almost nothing diplomatically has changed the world over the past half century. >> it really was stunning and building on the work of dr. kissinger. what dr. brzezinski did was in fact go and normalize the relationship so it wasn't partial the way it had been in the previous administrations, we didn't have an embassy and didn't have the full spectrum of the relationship, but it was really really exciting. i had a chance to go to china before normalization with the congressional delegation.

i had followed things from my little closet office outside the situation room, as all the experts were gathering and all of a sudden then they announced the normalization. deng zhao ping coming was incredible. and the decision last week of his normality and coming and dealing with the crowds and waving and being human, i had heard a lot about this dinner because i've been to the brzezinskis a lot. it was very personal, i think. that was the thing that was the big deal. it was a personal relationship that dr. brzezinski established with deng xiaoping, and it led to a different relationship. >> and jimmy carter taught all future leaders, if at first you don't succeed, try and try again. cyrus vans, sent over there and

it didn't go as expected and president carter sent dr. brzezinski and things did seem to go so much better. doesn't jimmy carter get short shifted time and time again historically, when you look within a six month time period, you have the camp david accords, and the middle east peace agreement in our time. then, you have this. then, you have the opening of china. it was an extraordinary year for the carter administration. >> i think it was. it had really begun because president carter had a view what he wanted to do, the issue of human rights being central to american foreign policy. then, if i may say so, having people around him who prepared the work and who really spent time thinking about the steps that had to be taken, and the

fact that people walked into the oval office in order to have conversations with president carter who asked endless questions and was fascinated by information. i always loved to -- i happened to have the opportunity to sit in on every meeting president carter had with members of congress, then also the way he understood what congress had to do, and then the relationship he had with dr. brzezinski, it was quite stunning. dr. brzezinski had president carter's head in so many ways in terms of going through issues. it was so much fun to listen how those briefings went. >> mark brzezinski, i mentioned after the passing of your dad. i've been in washington off and on over a quarter of a century. like all of us, we have been in rooms privately, where people sit and talk and muse about what might have been and what mistakes were made and how i

could have won the war if they had just listened to me, i found it remarkable, that in all my private conversations with your father and all of mika's private conversations with your father, he had nothing to say but praise, offering the highest of praise for jimmy carter, despite the fact jimmy carter signed that one picture of him jogging and said, perhaps the only time we were in step together. >> absolutely. there was a great mind meld between president carter and our father. also great strategic vision. as madam secretary said, it was truly transformational, transformational not just for us in terms of containing the soviets, but china. after america normalized relations with china, 113

countries followed with their own normalization of diplomatic relations with china. it broke the political logjam for the chinese. mou's china had been isolated. deng xiaoping's china would engage the world. the result of that, 40 years later, a china and america truly more interdependent economically and even politically than the current problems with trade would suggest, which goes to the point, if things break down between the two countries, these two power houses, america and china, will both suffer. if we can get it together, like we did 40 years ago, without a formal treaty, a lot of ambiguity, remember taiwan and vietnam and cambodia, real problems in terms of our relationship with china, a lot

we can do together with climate change, regional issues and beyond. >> madam secretary, we've been talking about the threat assessment by the cia, fbi and national intelligence and the ways they disagreed and contrasted on the president's views. one area they agreed on china, china remains a threat. we have indictments handed down from one of the biggest tech companies in the world. we have the tariffs of course. from where you're seated, what is the state of the relationship between the united states and china? >> i would hate to say this, complicated. there's a lot of interaction and independence. there is competition where chinese are trying to show how they can extend their power through the one belt one road. i said the chinese must be getting pretty fat because the belt keeps getting larger and larger. they are in many different places. i was just in morocco talking

about what the chinese are doing throughout africa in terms of providing infrastructure and helping them with grants, et cetera. i do think they're the rising power and competitor. i think we have to deal with them. i think there is a whole series of relationships we have to take seriously because the defense strategy and national security strategy points out china is viewed as the biggest threat, kinds of things they're doing in the south china sea and potensioniality of accidents. we have to deal in a strong way what's going on with china. >> i asked the then ambassador to china. what drives the chinese government? what drives the leadership? he said, fear, fear that the economy may go, the gdp may go

below 9, go below 8, now, we're down to 6, 6 1/2%. chances are good it could slow down more. are there real challenges china is going to facing internally if the economy continues to slow down? >> it does. we tend to think it's all powerful, it has a communist party and a leader named for life. they do have a variety of problems, some between what i talk about the problems at the bottom of the pyramid, divisions between rich and poor or middle class and poor. urban rural and what to do with a slowing down economy. the point is we don't do well if china's economy slows down. mark said we are interdependent in so many different ways so we have figure out how to work together. it's a fascinating relationship. you're talking about jon

huntsman, i just was in china. our ambassador to china is the former governor of iowa. one of the reasons, i think for the appointment is when peng came to the united states as vice president, we all had a meeting, he talked about how much he loved iowa and what he learned in iowa. while i have some problem with ambassador appointments, this one where there really is a relationship with the former governor and peng, we have a relationship. >> you agreed to disagree on some levels, taiwan and other things, but they got there. >> they did. >> when and how did things break down and become complicated again and how did they head in that direction? >> i think secretary albright put her finger right on it.

the chinese became more competitive. they are more competitive with us than the four corners of the world. i was ambassador to sweden. sweden has a better overall relationship with china than the united states. amazing, a close friendship of the friend of the united states? as they get more economically competitive, things get a little more prickly. that should not eclipse what it is we can do together. if the u.s. and china don't work together on climate change, even regional issues, whether between india and pakistan or the middle east, some of these issues are unsolvable. it's not that china's -- this is to reinforce secretary albright's point, the internal situation is complex. in 2035, there will be over 330 million chinese over the age of 65. more than the entire population

of the united states currently well be senior citizens and they will expect a certain standard of living chinese have to provide. if there's anything common fears it's internal social upheaval. it's an homogenous country, they're 34% hahn but fear internal conflict. thank you. we'll talk to you soon. vladamir putin facing problems. we had to become so hyper focused on russia, looking through the limbs of a commander in chief possibly compromised by vladamir putin, we rarely have the luxury to sit back and worry about some things going on in russia that cannot only destabilize russia and the region. as frightening as vladamir putin

is right now, i know you can remember a time before vladamir putin was in power, when we wondered whether the former soviets were keeping a close eye on their nuclear weapons. what are some of your bigger concerns about russia moving forward, apart from donald trump's strange relationship with vladamir putin? >> i do think one thing. to bring these two subjects together, what the chinese are doing is using nationalism to motivate their people because they felt they were disrespected. they need to have that tool of nationalism to keep people working hard and to keep them regime focused. the russians are doing the same thing. what is interesting, i did a survey in russia in '91, i'll never forget this man who stood up in a focus group and said, i'm so embarrassed. we used to be a super power. now, we're bangladesh with

missiles. what happens is putin is playing off that nationalist card in terms of he was going to make russia great again. we have to watch -- one of the things i talk in my book, patriotism is one thing. hyper nationalism is very very dangerous. it is what allows leaders to make decisions that go contrary to what people in their country want or national, their real interests. the thing that worries me about this is that the russians are playing a weak hard -- a week hand very very well. we can't forget putin is a kbg agent and knows how to do that. we are playing strong hand very poorly and that's one of the in this we need to speak about. >> we had more news this morning, secretary albright, about another meeting with vladamir putin and president trump, 15 minutes or so but again with no advisors or

translators. can you advise us, as someone who's been in those meetings so many times how unusual it is? >> i think it's totally unusual and really dangerous. i do know from my own experience how much work it takes to have a meeting, all the preparations by the government to get it together, brief the president, do all kinds of things. then, you need to know what actually happens in the meeting, so if there is decisions made, they can be carried out. i teach a course on decision making at georgetown. it is hard to make a decision today. if there's nobody in the meeting except the russian translator. by the time, the translators are key to diplomacy. the way they do it, the way one depends on them, even if you know the language. having them there and then

having another person there, note taker, if for no other reason, to carry out the decision. this is operating in a parallel yurps that makes it very difficult to know what happened. it is more than unusual. i think it is something very damaging to the way we do and should make policy. parallel universe. >> can i ask you about russia you talk about in the book. one of the great tragedies for dr. brzezinski, in then final years of his life geopolitically, what was happening in poland. you have the polish leadership, of course, showing more disrespect for the rule of law and independent judicial system than even donald trump here in america. why is this happening in poland? what is happening in hungary? what is happening in central

america and can the next president of the united states be a republican, end or democrat, be it a republican, what can they do to turn that around? >> we had hopes generally after the end of the cold war, the thought if democracy was understood and that there were various parts of the rule of law and elected leaders, it would be easier than it has turned out to be. partially, there is this sense -- again, some has to do with the economy. why is it not shared, some of the wealth? why all of a sudden privatization led to oligarches and corruption. by the time, i am going over to poland in a couple of months to give a speech in honor of brzezinski. he has been and is much the love there. we didn't have a chance to talk about the most recent horrors in poland and hungary. we spent a lot of time of the

importance of getting the countries in nato. it is not just a military alliance, political alliance. that part is not being honored. i think he would be horrified what is happening in terms of how the government is treating the judiciary. what i think, and i hope this continues, there's beginning to be some protests in poland. >> there are. >> people who disagree. same thing is happening in hungary. there is a lot to look at. poland studied it so much, had revolts every 10 years and people wanted freedom. it has been suppressed. we need to pay attention. i will give a pretty tough speech. >> i'm so excited to hear about that. >> madam secretary, i wanted to briefly touch on the crisis in venezuela. i want to see how you engage the trump administration's handling so far of the effort to isolate

and essentially, i believe, depose maduro and his regime, and what do you believe are the prospects for the worst case scenario, probably looming very large on policymakers, oil, drugs, weapons, paramilitary organizations on the border and burgeoning national refugee crisis and how can we stave that off? >> i did write in my book as a very authoritarian government is something we have to be concerned about. partially, i met chavez when he first came in, he came in as a result of a coup. people thought he would take the oil wealth and distribute it to the people. instead, he took his own path of really becoming a very authoritarian leader. maduro is trying to carry it on. there were elections there's real thought had not been carried out fairly. what is happening is fascinating in terms of the leader of the

national assembly thinking and saying he is more legitimate. to a great extent he is. i think the united states is playing a mixed role, i might say. supporting what is happening is important and it is certainly also being supported by countries in latin america, the lima group, for instance, is saying what is happening in venezuela is wrong and it needs to be supported. there was an emergency meeting of the u.n. security council. what i'm concerned about is talking about military action. i think there needs to be other ways to be supportive and understand the people of venezuela deserve better than what happened under chavez and maduro. it's kind of interesting, one of the few times this administration has not identified with the strong man. i think it's worth looking at what the pressures are. i'm worried about our diplomats. what i do find interesting is

the action by the latin-american countries and by canada kind of saying there needs to be another election. they have to look at their constitution. venezuela is important to how latin america goes and the humanitarian crisis is stunning. we've been talking about migrants and people and people flowing out of venezuela into the other countries is something we have to worry about. >> former secretary of state, madeleine albright, always great to have you on the show. thank you so much. her book, "fascism," a warning is now out. >> and mika always -- >> she is right. it is a big warning still. how does it play out today? >> i'm concerned about it. one of the best quotes in the book really is attributed to muso linney. if you pluck a chicken one feather at a time, nobody notices, but there is a lot of

feather plucking going on at the moment. >> every single day. thank you so much. >> alex is going on, but alex keeps saying we have to let you go. i will say, though, isn't it heartening to see the intel chiefs yesterday, appointed by donald trump, confirmed by a republican senate, ignore all of his pressure and loyalty and actually tell it straight to congress and the american people? >> this is why i have faith in democracy. if we speak up and support those telling the truth, i think we will stop the feather plucking. >> still ahead, thank you so much, secretary albright. still ahead, acting attorney general, matthew whittaker, said this week the russia probe would be wrapping up soon. he looks really nervous about it. >> we will ask intel chief, adam

schiff, what he thinks about it? "morning joe" back in two minutes. oe" back in two minutes.

joining us now, democratic adam schiff. is the mueller investigation close to wrapping up? is that correct? >> i don't know if it is correct. i do know matt whitaker should not have anything to do with the investigation. that was the opinion of the ethics lawyer at the justice department. he's ignoring that. bob mueller is capable to speak for himself. for one thing our witnesses,

telling them the investigation is almost over and if they waited out, they may be able to wait out the special counsel is not helpful. i think matt whitaker should keep his mouth shut and have nothing to do with this. i do look forward to his aexperience before the judicial committee and i hope to find out whether he's been briefing the president at the white house defense team which . >> roger stone was arrested and indicted on seven counts yesterday and pleading not guilty to those charges. how significance of roger stone in your investigation? >> one of the thread involves with the interaction between the trump campaign and the russian cut out like guccifer and wikileaks which was the

publishing arm of russians for their hacking materials. why all the lies about these contacts and the indictment charges, roger stone, with several eyes before our committee. efforts to intimidate and prevent other witnesses to tell the truth. why go to all that trouble as to roger stone -- it does not add up. >> congressman schiff, it seems that there is such a gap between the president and his intel chiefs. does that play into questions that you would have in the committee. i have never seen anything like this. have we ever before? >> i don't think we have seen anything like this. we are going to be doing deep dives into many of the issues that were raised in the testimony yesterday. the contradictions between our intelligence agency, what they

have to say for north korea plan to denuclearize or the status of i.c.e. or elsewhere and what the president have been promoting. it is obviously very important that the american people understand the truth and what we know and the country. i will say this also that blairing absences that you talked about earlier that none of the intel chiefs brought up a threat at the border. that can be exhibit a in a challenge of a national emergency. none of the intelligence agencies think it is an emergency. congress on both part don't think this is an emergency. i think if anything it is going to undermine that legal case that the president may try to make that dealing with yesterday can be a central exhibit. >> what's the status of michael cohen testifying and what would be the importance of it? what can he offer?

>> he'll be testifying on october 8th, he can offer insights into a few things of the committee before. the trump tower moscow deal. mika, this is all in the public record of what we get to know of michael cohen and find details around it. during the presidential campaign of the presumptive republican nominee while deny any dealings are the russians was trying to make what would have been the most lucrative deal of his life. something that special counsel would have said what have made trump's family hundreds of millions of dollars and at the same time he was advocating something that would make billions for russia. all this is going on at the same time, roger stone and others are trying to get russian help and russians are offering the help at trump tower in new york. all of this is contemporaneous.

micha michael cohen can shed lights on that and in terms of money laundering. mattis testimony can be valuable indeed. >> william barr is on hold. republicans say they are concerned, what report if any if congress has if that raps. >> i am pleased to see republicans speak up for the first time that this mueller report needs to be made public and bill barr should give us a clip note portion of it. we can subpoena for the report. we can also i think pass legislation, looks like this bipartisan report and make sure it is public. at the end of the day, this public is going to see what's in this report. i want to point out over the last two years and this is

something i raise as recently as yesterday against the justice department, they provided tens of thousands of pages discovery to congress about the clinton e-mail investigation. you are setting a precedent that when the mueller investigation is over, you are going to provide answers for discovery. that goes on way beyond the mueller report. >> congressman adam schiff, thank you for being on this morning. >> it appears that president trump keeps finding way to meet with russian vladimir putin. the two spoke on the sideline at the g-20 summit last year without a note taker or a translator from the united states. that new report is next on "morning joe." oe." was so frustrating. my skin... it was embarrassing. my joints... they hurt.

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is russia still targeting the u.s. mr. president? >> the whole russia thing is a hoax. it is a terrible hoax. >> not only the russians continue to do it in 2018 but we have seen indications that they continue to adapt their model. >> the agreement says there will be total denuclearization, nobody wants to report that. >> north korea will seek to retain its capabilities. >> we have made a lot of progress that had not been

reported by the media. >> it is unlikely to completely give out its nuclear weapons and production capability. >> i ended the horrible week of iran nuclear deal. >> is iran abiding by the term of the jcpao in terms of nuclear activities? >> we have won against isis. >> we have beaten them badly. >> while isis in near territorial defeat in iraq, the group is returning to its gorilla group. >> isis still commands thousands of fighters in iraq and syria. >> a lot of contrasts between donald trump and verses what america's top official had to say yesterday of the worldwide threat assessment hearing.

as nbc news notes the intelligence chief did not want to mention the need for the wall along for the southern border which president trump has portrayed as the single most pressing need facing the country. >> what specifically are you talking about here national security threat to america, they did not talk about the wall or the caravans, crossings. again, it has been going down for well over a decade that illegal drugs owe them that which you can shift. >> oh please. >> and go to legal ports of entry. >> yeah. custom act. >> but, it is -- willie, what's

so fascinating is what donald trump said is more in line of what vladimir putin said and what he would say on all of those issues as oppose to america's di and military and american leaders have one view of the world, vladimir putin has another view of the world. if you look at those issues yesterday, donald trump is lining up closer to vladimir putin than they do with the head of the fbi, the cia and the director of national intelligence. all republicans who donald trump appointed. >> yes, the view of russia's threat to the united states, ongoing threat has been consistent with our intelligence agency from the beginning. president trump has been in

contact for years with them. we talk a lot on the show of institution holding and what it means in the age of trump. we saw the head of the cia and director of national intelligence sitting at an open hearing and signaling to the american people in the world that we still got this. we know what the real threats are in this country and here they are despite what the president says. >> we have our msnbc and co-host and show time, john hyman. >> by the way, the part of the circus that you tweeted of roger stone melting down when you were bringing up certain issues with him is worth noting or worth looking at. >> with a flashlight inside his foamy mouth. >> a major melt down. >> also with us is republican strategist, politico analyst, susan and cofounder and ceo, jim

vanderhye. >> billionaires are going wild and freaking out of elizabeth warren's tax plan. >> willie, to vanderhye here and axios had a huge year last year >> wow, congratulations. >> it is really not fair when you look at their income streaming compares to other media platforms because half of their $25 million in revenue the past year as it always does comes from the mike ellen's swim suit calendar. >> i didn't know where that was going. >> hell i am not going to get

any sleep. >> vanderhye, you guys have holograms and the calendars itself and -- >> we have the fancy backdrop, do you see that? >> yes. >> it is not those rich mohaghany bookcases. >> okay, can we do the news. you are talking about trump aligning with putin a lot more. >> the white house acknowledged that president trump and russian vladimir putin informally met in buenos aires at the g-summit. their meeting included no american personnel. >> this is almost like a trend here. like a fear that the president of the united states, a fear, the president of the united states ever have americans

listening to his conversation with vladimir putin. >> almost. >> it happens all the time. >> so in november he cancelled his meeting with putin due to russia's prok svacative capturef ships and sailors. according to the financial times, the leaders huddled for seven minutes at the end of an evening event with no translator or note taker from the u.s. side to record what was said. why is it that the translator from the american side. why is it that it is always the translator of vladimir putin never a translator for the american side. >> because president trump does not trust the intel community and his own staff. this goes back to jared kushner wanting to back channel with the russians after the election.

this is something he always wanted to have as an open line of communication. he has now said i will find it and he does not care if he's not updating his security team or his intel team. that's what's also what's so good about yesterday's hearing. those members of the intel committee says we are going to be honest and straightforward with the american public and we are not afraid of donald trump. >> and they lied time and time again. i remember -- i said this before. march of 2017, asking to offset quietly all around. this was when the whole russia thing first started to percolate. >> who's in trouble? don jr. for one. what? does he not have a hunting

license in idaho? of course you and mark and some others did some extraordinary reporting of all these contacts with russians that donald trump and the whole team have been lying about now for two years. >> it is pretty amazing. just the extent of it, we have seen reporting of cataloging of how much it has been. back to susan's point, i saw a darker spin on this. yes, donald trump does not trust his intelligence committee. what's more precisely, donald trump does not want anybody on the american side to know what he's talking about with vladimir putin. there is a reason why american presidents, even one-on-one in the past, they do one-on-one meetings, they always have someone from their side there because the rest of the government needs to know what's said in that meeting and to be able to keep later accounts of it. for whatever reason or whatever he's talking about with vladimir putin is stuff he does not want any americans to know about. that raises all kinds of, it is

slightly a chilling thing that this happens every time he meets with putin, it is not reporting initially and not read out to the press. he has no one from the american government ever present. that pattern is truly unsettling. >> the pattern have been with us for a very long time. you remember when he's invited in the foreign minister and the russian ambassador of the united states to brag about the fa ct that he would fire jim comey and they did not have anything to worry about anymore. he exploded american reporters from that meeting but allowed russians in. >> yeah, i have got a lot of friends and family members who are like wait, other presidents have done this, didn't obama did it one time with putin? no, is the answer. no time in history one of our

leaders met with an adversary multiple times where nobody on the american side taking any notes or telling the people in the government what actually transpire. it is just plain weird. you guys are talking about the idea that you guys had the intelligence community and the a invict apparatus of the government saying the opposite of -- again, it does not happen and never happened with this level of consistency where they break based on data and intelligence of what the president says rhetorically in public. those two things may not be impeachable or enough to move trump voters but they are just plain weird and they break from historical pr historical precedents. >> these are all republicans and all appointed by donald trump

christoph christopher wray as we heard yesterday was suggested by chris christ christie. dan coats, republican ambassador and republican through and through also picked by donald trump, confirmed. these are all republicans who were saying it was the president telling you it is just a lie. what the president is telling you is not what's happening in the world. it is happening time and time again. even the dhs secretary said that vladimir putin and russia post a direct threat to american democracy. she said it under testimony and she said it on capitol hill. >> seriously?

>> he keeps denying and denying what everybody in his government and the military are saying. >> so some more details from this report not independently confirmed by nbc news cites people who have direct knowledge of the encounter or briefed on it claims the discussion occurred at the theater as world leaders and spouses were guests streaming out of the building. president trump accompanied by his wife melania but no staff. while putin was accompanied by his translator. the four of them sat at the table and were among the last to leave. a russian government official tells the finance right latimese two leaders spoke about 15 minutes about a number form of number policies including the conflict in syria and ukraine and they also discuss when they can have a formal meeting the official says.

the white house declined further comment. still ahead on "morning joe," it is elizabeth warren verses america's wealthiest. two presidential rivals who happen to be billionaires are knocking the senator's new tax proposal. you are watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. i used to book my hotel room on those travel sites but there was always a catch. like somehow you wind up getting less. but now that i book at hilton.com, and i get all these great perks. i got to select my room from the floor plan... very nice... i know, i'm good at picking stuff. free wi-fi... laptop by the pool is a bold choice... and the price match guarantee. how do you know all of this? are you like some magical hilton fairy? it's just here on the hilton app. just available to the public, so... book at hilton.com and get the hilton price match guarantee. if you find a lower rate, we match it and give you 25% off that stay.

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come out with a ridiculous plan of taxing wealthy people of a surtax of 2% which because it makes a good headline or sends out a tweet when she knows that for a fact that it is not ever going to be passed. this is wrong. >> warren tweeting, what's ridiculous is billionaires who think they can buy the presidency to keep the system rigged for themselves while opportunity slips away for everybody else. the top .1% who pay for my ultra millionaire tax, own about the same. >> this sort of thing where he

was going to level the plain field a little bit. i am not so sure that this is not going to be extremely popular in wisconsin in michigan and pennsylvania and ohio and a lot of places across america. >> certainly among the people who are deciding the democratic presidential nominee is. i would be sending thank you notes to bloomberg right now and howard schultz right now. >> how not to respond to a billionaire. >> these are exactly -- those two guys, howard schultz, he understood his posture puts him out of step where the party is right now. bloomberg has done a lot of good work on climate change and gun control, that gives him some standing to run the democrats. his biggest vulnerability that

he's a democratic, to stand up in that way and talk about the propose by warren. he's entitled to his view of tax rates. he's exacerbating his biggest vulnerability with most democrats who are going to be on her side broadly speaking about those super rich paying more taxes. >> howard schultz joining us next on "morning joe." ♪[upbeat music]

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i am seriously thinking of running for president. >> that's right. howard schultz could be running for president for 2020 or as they call it starbucks venti-venti. >> swrojoining us now howard schultz, a journey to reimagine the promise of america. msnbc mike barnicle is joining us with the conversation as well. howard, i am still addicted to my coffee.

>> i think we need a little decalf this morning. >> oh, i always have the two shots and i can't help myself. >> so, talk about the first couple of days getting out there and getting the message. >> i must be doing something right to create so much interests and backlash from the democratic party. some of it is a surprise. we expected to see some of the level -- but not to the extent. on "60-minutes," i seriously said i am seriously considering to run as president as an in na independent. all of the issues that the current government both parties have been unwilling and unable to solve, whether a democrat wins a presidency or donald

trump gets re-elected, i hope not. nothing is going to change. >> let me ask you this. >> how did you get to the point of thinking hey, maybe this is going to happen. you know obviously mike bloomberg has been thinking about this for a long time and has tons of money. he always concluded every time you look at it that you could not get to 270 and whatever political party in the house of representatives would select their candidate as a president. >> i respect mike bloomberg, he's not the proxy for what's dpoing going to happen for 2020. what did i see? what i see for the last three or four or five presidential elections, only 8 to 10 battleground states are pretty much controlled or predicted. who's going to be president? >> what if the possibility of an

independent person can capture the imagination of the 42% people who affiliate themselves as an independent which is more than either party and what if republicans and democrats lifelong are looking for home, they're not going to vote for left wing elizabeth warren or kamala harris and they don't want to reelect donald trump. what if for the first time in 40 years, the 50 states which i am on every ballot really matters instead of 8 to 10 battleground state controlling who's going to be president. >> say we get rid of the electoral college. >> let me finish. if we precede, we'll be on the ballot of every state and we have done that work and we can get to 270 because all 50 states

will matter and not 8 to 10. >> i have done the work and spent the last year to look at this clearly. bloomberg is not my proxy. a democrat is not going to be able to -- all of a sudden the government is going to start working, nothing's working. i believe just imagine the mandate that if an independent person can get elected, if i was fortunate enough to win the presidency, the power that people is speaking that we can transform the government finally and get people. >> mike bloomberg is not our proxy. willie and i keep on asking him to have some of his money. >> howard, there are two strains of the criticism. you have not gotten into the race yet. the one strain is what we heard from bloomberg who says, howard, i respect you but you can't win.

the other strain, he's the master mind behind this. quote, "he can't win and damage our ability to beat donald trump, he should either run as a democratic or spend his money that'll not ruin the world." why not run as a democrat? we know you are a democrat. you supported hillary clinton. >> you are no longer a democrat? >> no, i don't affiliate myself as a democrat party who is so far left and wants the government to take over and free clench to everybody and the government to give everyone a job. it is basically $40 trillion on the balance sheet of $21.5 trillion. what can we do? what we need is comprehensive tax reform. what we need is sensible solutions to immigration. all of these things can't happen under the current environment.

now, i have also been criticized for being a billionaire. i am self-made, i grew up in the project of brooklyn, new york. i thought that was the american's dream, the aspiration of america. you are going criticize me? elizabeth warren wants to criticize me for being successful? > >> no. >> let me follow up on that. the criticism is not that you want to run for president. the criticism is that if you do run in this middle lane where votes are so precious as we saw last time, you can steal just enough to cause democratic the election. >> it is not true. >> why not make the argument you made within the democratic primary. >> i do not believe what the democratic party stand for and the american people. not the people in washington or

the people in new york, the american people want a change. the american people realize the government is not working. it is not a statistic that 40% of american people don't have $400 in the bank or five million kids in america are not in school. those are not statistics. those are people. >> not all democrats want medicare. you are citing kamala harris. why could you not get the democratic race and make the case as a center democrat. >> i think the country needs transformation. the government needs to be disrupted. it is not working. how much evidence do you have? give me one thing and show me one thing which you can say firmly. the government is really working. the shutdown of the government for months, 800,000 people not working. what's working? i spent the last five years spending time with veterans and hiring veterans and understanding their issues and giving money veterans.

i went to the va, do you know what the budget is for the va? take a guess? >> i don't have a number. >> $40 billion. >> $200 billion, the va. it is a tragic. there is nothing working in the government. why should we vote in a democratic and/or republican to discontinue the broken system. >> you don't think you can disrupt it the way donald trump disrupts it? he found that as a vessel to get in the white house. >> i am not saying you want to behave as he does as president but it was a way in the white house. >> what i am going to try to do is go out to the american people and ignite a powerful movement. i believe not just people in new york or d.c., i am hearing from thousands saying finally, someo someone's voice that i can

relate to. >> that's what they said donald trump. >> i am not donald trump. i run the company for 26 years. >> you just said howard. i don't believe what the democratic party stands for. give me five issues that the democratic party stand for that you don't agree with? >> i just gaive you three? >> government taking over healthcare, free college for everyone and the democrats and republicans under the last 20 years on both parties have been complicit in creating a $21.5 trillion debt. that's a reckless and immoral abandonment of leadership. the republican or democrats are not trusted by the american people. the problem in america is that we have no leadership that's trusted, the dignity and respect of the oval office is gone and

republicans and democrats no longer represent the essence of the people. i am thinking of running for president as a center independent. if you agree with me, i am dpoing to provide you an opportunity. i strongly believe there is an opportunity and a large people, the silent majority who wants a voice of somebody who's going to represent them. >> you do realize that many people registered as an independent and yet they still tilt one way or another. >> they never had a legitimate choice. >> they have not? >> ross perote. >> don't forget about my story. i am a self-made person. i like bloomberg, i hope he runs for president. i think it will be great for america. i came from the project, the empathy and compassion that i

have for all those people who are being left behind israel. >> when people say to me, you are a billionaire? yeah. but i am part of what i thought was the prospect of the promise of america, work hard and great opportunity, your station life does not define you? that's me. >> let's move from the decision to running as an independent and concerns someone have as your candidacy and messaging. let's say you decide to run for president. three questions, what qualifies you to be the president of the united states? >> what qualifies me is my life experience. people are going to think it is my starbucks experience. it is what i have learned along the way and sharing you can access and recognizing every business decision is not an economic one. it is a real understanding that somebody that is to restore the promise of america and what qualifies me is that i will be a leader of the country of all american people, the people will trust and admire because i will

understand. i have walked in their shoes. i am on both sides of the equation. i am somebody who was successful or somebody that came from the projects and i understand the american people. >> who is the best republican president in the past 50 year ss? >> a great respect for ronald reagan and all the wonderful things he did that really struck me compares to the current person who's despicable in the oval office. ronald reagan never took off his jacket for 80 years, why? the respect and dignity of the office. >> fdr. >> how much does an 18 ounce box of cheerios costs? >> i don't know. >> budget for the va, we can ask you questions for that. >> i don't need cheerios. >> it is four bucks.

. >> did the four of you think there should be a government take over of the healthcare system? >> i am glad you are asking questions so i can ask you the question back. again, talking elizabeth miller, everybody makes a mistake. you go out and you talk about how you are going to save healthcare. if it fits on a bumper sticker, you are going to have a long ride. barack obama saw it with obamacare. by the end he was having to make deals with big pharma and associations. it was an ugly process. where do we take obamacare from here? what do we take the affordable care act from here? and how do you do it? not just because you are an

independent and you will sprinkle magic dust on washington, d.c. how do you get republicans and democrats buy into a healthcare plan that can fix the country. when we are talking about money, one o f the outrageous things here is we spend more money per patient than any country in the world and we still have single moms with their kids at 11:30 at night in an emergency room using the e.r. as their primary healthcare provider. it is immoral. it is a disgrace. we are still going bankrupt p putting on healthcare. >> did you know my personal health story? >> no, we never talked about it.

>> my father fell on a sheet of ice with fire. i experienced as a 7-year-old boy what happened when no health insurance and worker's compensation, we had jewish family services delivering food to our apartment when we are out of luck. i experienced the shame and fear of no healthcare. that's why i built the kind of company that my father never got a chance for it and put healthcare in the place of starbucks. >> is healthcare a fundamental right for every american? >> yes. every american should have the right for affordable healthcare. >> i thought the affordable care act is the right thing to do. b >> i am remined and specifically premiums have gone up. what do we need to do? no republicans and democrats are going to be able to come together and solve this problem.

that's self evident. going back to what i said earlier, can you imagine given the fact that it is never done before that an independent person like myself, a rag to ri richess story could possibly be the president of the united states. we want change. >> but what kind of change? you sit down and you got mitch mcconnell here and nancy pelosi there, you look at them, here is the deal. we dpgot to fix our healthcare system. nancy, what's your idea? how do we do this? >> we bring in what i have done my entire career, people smarter than myself with skills and experience beyond mitch mcconnell and nancy pelosi in the room, get private enterprise in the room and realize we all need to have skin in the game. corporations need to do more for

their employees like starbucks did. we demonstrated that you can be profitable and provide healthcare. >> the healthcare steal business base. >> not only but partially. we have to realize what's wrong of the political system is pharma has many special sbrel interests in the nra. i am not playing by those rules anymore. i am going to break the log jam. pharma is going to negotiate with the government and we'll have complete transparency. if you don't, we are coming after you. >> let's stick with healthcare packages, healthcare and income of equality, what will you do to restore the union of this country? >> unions arrived in america because there were a lot of bad actors.

unions have arrived on the scene because companies were not doing the right thing for their employees. they're also very good at companies in america and good management in america who recognize that we have to share success that not every business decision is an economic one. unions have a role to play. the answer to in equality is comprehensive tax reform. i was outraged when president trump gave a free ride to corporations of 21% tax rate. that was wrong, especially wrong when we did nothing to help the people who needed most. we need comprehensive tax reforms. >> capital gains. >> everything needs to be looked at in a fairway. >> you were opposed to the trump's tax cut? >> yes, 100%. i was public about that. now we are going to see this. >> one quick question and we got to go to break.

>> this is rapid fire. >> this is going great. >> it is called hazing. >> you need to come here everyday. i am curious, so much of what's driving the american politics is impacted by 2008, of course, the collapse. >> yes. >> do you think, forget any sort of populous strand. don't you think some more people who are responsible for that crash should have gone to jail? >> yes. >> don't you think it is a crime that we have kids that spends time in jail for smoking pot and you got people that destroy american lives and have wiped out their lifelong earnings and they never spend a day in prison. >> yes, who's responsible for that? the people who are in power. the leaders of the government, the republicans and the democrats. >> and, and, the people that were running the banks and the investment firms. >> agree.

>> that were milking the system. >> but who's responsible for not putting those people in jail? >> it was the leader of the government. >> so you would. >> absolutely. the status quo is not working and the leaders of both parties are doing one thing, based on self interest. i know you will get to the book which i love. if you are democratic or republican today and you just want to go five inches away from the ideology of the party, you know this, you are out. >> it is unbelieverabable. >> it is like the god father, you never get credit. >> senator warren put out a plan. you call that plan ridiculous. we show a poll earlier in the

show. >> well, if that plan was put in place, it probably can fund the government a day or two. that's not the answer. the answer is let's take a step back after this. let's not send out a tweet or press release that does not make news. let's get serious people around the table and solve this problem once and for all which is comprehensive tax reform. >> do you think elizabeth warren is a serious person? >> yes, she is a serious person. she came to me a few years ago asking for contribution? >> did you give it to her? >> no. i did not. i don't believe the country should head to socialism. >> do you think she's a socialist? >> she's a smart woman, i respect her. this is not personal. i just don't agree with her. >> we need to have that

conversation another time. >> you need to come back. >> i have to leave already? >> we got another segment. >> you need to try cheerios. i lough love cheerios. >> i am a yoga guy. >> we need you to come back. >> i would say it right now. if you come here and said i am running as a democratic then every headline of tomorrow would be you fill the space of joe biden and you would be the candidate to watch out for. right now the question is if joe biden runs, are you guys

fighting? >> i think it would be great for the country if biden runs or bloomberg runs. i think it will be a wonderful opportunity and exchange. >> you are exactly right. did the same people predicting that donald trump would never be elected as president of the united states. >> nobody knows nothing. >> i know one thing, i love america and i want to try to fix the problem and the people that's left behind. >> howard schultz. >> his book "from the ground up" is out now. i want to do a big talk on comprehensive reform. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." rning joe.

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editor of commentary magazine noah rothman, author of the new

book "unjust social justice and the unmaking of america." with us also for this conversation is the author and nbc news political analyst and girdardis. did i say it. >> you're getting 3% or 4% better on an annual basis. >> we're almost there. >> ski. you don't say it correctly. i'm just wondering if i'm saying it closer to how you say it. >> this is the ultimate mansplaining but go ahead. >> here's how you say your name. >> your name. because i'm too many stupid to say anything more than two syllables. so tell us about your buck "unjust." >> social justice as we understand is a malleable term. most americans think it's a framework for fairness and a just society and writing historical grievances. it was once that. it has become something much different did, the anti-thesis of the pursuit after blind

objective justice. its adherents have confused a pursuit of repairtive form of justice with a form of justice much more retributive. it has become hostile to notions like color blindness, like individual agency and merit. presumption of innocence. fundamental notions of common law english common law. this is a fundamental outgrowth of an i tentitarian philosophy which is shared by right and left. the extremes on both sides share more in common than they do. >> you bring out that donald trump has basically brought white identity politics to the republican party. >> certainly. >> in a way that republicans always complained seemed to hamper democrats. >> the side of the equation on the left that proceeds itself to be the lightened arbiters of

animus are making the same argument. appealing to power sources, to the state for redress, for historical grichess and the two don't seem to realize they're reflexes of one another. >> knowia, we've had cultural flash points that probably illustrate your point. give us a concrete example of what you're talking about that people remember and relate to. >> the notion of the right to be believed which was something that hillary clinton endorsed with regard to the claims of sexual assault victims was perceived to be addressing a historical grievance and rooted fundamentally in social justice theory which holds that the united states has such misogyny engrained in its institutions they cannot adjudicate claims like this. >> when you say the right to be believed, what are you saying? >> that a sexual assault survivor deserves not just impartial but deference to their claims which is antithetical to the information justice. we had high profile examples of why that was unjust, but the

ones that never make the headlines were the students who were made victims by the title 9 reforms under the obama era. both accusers and accused deprubed of their fifth and sixth amendment rights as a result that american institutions is cannot adjudicate these claims fairly as a result of historical grievances dating back thousands of years. this is a conceptual understanding of what the american idea is. >> anand, are you here because you were the co-author of this book? i'm joking. your turn too it is so fascinating we're having a conversation about the problems of identity politics at a table with five men. >> well, to tell you the truth, mick cag -- >> i understand it may have been her choice. >> she was offended by my hair and asked if she could leave. >> i don't blame her. there are excesses in every cultural wave when you have a

rightist cultural wave, there's excesses. when you have a market kind of philosophy that entrenches itself there are excesses as well as good things. you may be right that there are excesses in the current wave of culture around identity. you can't start there. right. >> what is extraordinary that is happening in our time, the things you reflexively push back against is a real awakening at the heart of american discourse and the mainstream of american discourse about experiences of what it is like to be a woman, to be black, what it has been like to be an immigrant, to be a muslim that were not part of the discourse. as indian american growing up in this country, there were experiences i've gone through that only now do i realize were absolutely because of how i look and i didn't have that language 15 years ago going through those things. that language now exists. it's very easy to sit and say this is all looking at people by

group and this and that, but i'll give you an example of me, too. when the movement happened, a lot of guys treated it as an opportunity to say what are these people saying and women are kind of nagging us. i took it as even if you've never done the weinstein kind of things reading the testimonies of all these women, wow, there was a lot of stuff i never saw coming up as a man. when faced with these cries for justice, there are some people whose reflex is to say i don't want my perch to be invaded. and there are others and i think it's a wiser course to say there's probably things i haven't seen, there's probably realities of other people i haven't experienced. >> that i can never understand as a man. >> certainly. >> and before you answer, i'd like to tack on to what anand just said. years of sitting in municipal could yours waiting for a case to be called you were going to write about, you quickly come to the conclusion about justice in

america that it involves added stripped down to its model two things. the color of money and the color of the defendant's skin. >> i think that's frankly an unfair reading of the american judicial system and the thousands of years of history that have create rad the english common law concepts upon which it is built. this is the foundation of enlightenment. >> and black and brown peoples. that's something you've suffered in family and friends closely? have you dealt with that? >> well, i've experienced life in america. >> not that life. >> powers of ideas transcend the power of identity in many ways. not to say in this book goes at lepg to say it is adjudicating the claims of legitimate racial and historical grievances even systemic grievances which do exist beyond the scope of any one book. this is adjudication of illegitimate claims to regression, it is the notion that besign ghettoization that some sort of a form of justice owing to mere demographic traits

and accidents of birth is progress strikes me as nine. it is regression on a scale that should be resistive who has attachment to the american ideals. >> it seems like you may be actually to use begyneghettoization. >> the idea that we can create safe spaces for individuals of different racial, ethnic, demographic traits to prevent "uncomfortable learning" which is something members of the faculty are saying is something students need. that's not something i think is advancing any sort of justice. it is creating grievance-based and small-mindedness communities that are definitely not part of the american experience as i understand it. i don't think we'll have a good outcome for the american social compact. >> let's do this. are you around tomorrow? >> i think i am. >> are you just hanging out

tomorrow? can you hang out here tomorrow? >> sure can. >> that would be good. why don't we do this. expand it longer. mika will be here. and we'll have many other people here. this will be the united. >> producers scrambling right now. >> i'll do one other thing too, which is we'll find a conservative that will actually agree with you because i will say ideologically you're outnumbered here. i'm a host. i'm always right down the middle. >> you're kind of elapsed. >> i've lapsed in so many ways. i know i'm killing you alex. the more you talk in my ear, the harder you make it for me to land the plane. i've got to land the plane. i'm joking. let's do this tomorrow. let's give it 30 minutes because this is such an extraordinary conversation. and you all have said so many words that i don't even understand. i'm going to have to look them up. >> i'll send you a memo