is representing. that does it for me. thanks for watching. i'll see you back here next saturday and to keep the conversation going, like us on facebook.com/politicians nation and follow us on twitter @politics nation. up next, "meet the press" with chuck todd. this sunday northam digs in. virginia governor ralph northam refuses to resign. >> the person i was is not the man i am today. >> after denying he is in this photo from his medical school yearbook page. >> this was not my picture. i was not in that costume either as blackface or as kkk. and it's not me. >> with the democrats universally denouncing northam, how can they get him to leave? i'll talk to two leaders of the congressional black caucus. karen bass and donald mceachin. plus, democrats divided on the best way to defeat president trump.

on one side progressives like elizabeth warren. >> let's be really clear, capitalism without rules is theft. >> on the other, moderates like michael bloomberg. >> i'm a lbd little bit tired of listening to things like pie in the sky. >> my guest this morning, the democrat who says he could be one to bridge that gap. also, the president, the speaker and the border wall. >> there's not going to be any wall money in the legislation. >> she's just playing games. so if there's no wall, it doesn't work. >> will president trump declare a national emergency? republican senator rick scott of florida is here. joining me for insight and analysis are eugene robinson of "the washington post." nbc news chief white house correspondent hallie jackson. rich lauer of national review. theresa kumar and mark leibovich from "the new york times" magazine. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington,

the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. >> good sunday morning. when ralph northam beat ed gillespie in virginia in 2017 it was a racially charged race that northam won with strong support from african-american voters. >> ralph believes if we're going to talk about our history then we should do it in a way that heals. not in a way that wounds. not in a way that divides. >> now his career may be over after this photo from northam's medical school yearbook page which emerged late friday. within hours northam apologized writing i am deeply sorry for the decision i made to appear as i did in this photo and for the hurt that decision caused then and now. but yesterday a reversal. northam said he's never seen the yearbook before, and he claimed he was not in the photo. >> this was not my picture.

i was not in that costume either as blackface or as kkk, and it's not me. >> northam conceded that people will find it difficult to believe him. then perhaps underscoring that prediction, he revealed that he had worn blackface before. >> that same year i did participate in a dance contest in san antonio in which i darkened my face as part of a michael jackson costume. i look back now and regret that i did not understand the harmful legacy of an action like that. >> northam's political future is clearly in peril. virtually the entire democratic establishment including virginia's two democratic senators has called for his resignation. and northam's press conference only accelerated those calls. pretty much the democrat we haven't heard from is barack obama. the political climate has

clearly changed. democrats in particular are showing zero-tolerance especially among their own for behavior that they have condemned president trump for. and if northam won't go on his own, what do democrats do? joining me now are two members of the congressional black caucus. karen bass of california is the chair of cbc who is joining us from los angeles and also donald mceachin, an important player in virginia politics going back to the mid 1990s. welcome to both of you. mr. mceachin, let me start with you. i know you've called for his resignation. is there anything that he could do that would somehow convince you to give him more time in office? >> no, and i consider ralph a friend. we were elected to the same senate at the same time. but, look, he's lost the authority to lead. he's lost the authority to govern. he has to resign. it's in the best interest of the commonwealth. it's in the best interest of the party.

>> congresswoman bass, why is this so important nationally in your mind for governor northam to go? >> well, because i think he's been completely dishonest and disingenuous. he knew this picture was there, and he could have come clean and talked to african-americans he knew decades ago. and i think given the overall climate of race in this country especially given the last two years it's completely unacceptable. the good news, though, is there a zero-tolerance and people do understand. and he needs to resign immediately to stop the pain in virginia and frankly around the nation. >> congresswoman bass, i want to follow up on something governor northam said himself yesterday. he was making the case if he quickly left office then this gets swept under the rug and we don't have a conversation. he's trying to make the case him staying in office in some ways it's the harder thing to do and forces a conversation we don't

normally have on race. what do you say to that? >> no, he's forcing the wrong conversation. what he should do is resign and then if he has any integrity at all, he should participate in that conversation. he was completely disingenuous when he talked about he didn't understand this in 1984 and this was common place. he's basically saying he participated in it, and especially describing the time he did the michael jackson impression. he even acted at the press conference like he was willing to moonwalk until his wife stopped him which shows he still does not understand the seriousness of his actions. >> congressman mceachin, have you spoken to him in the last 24 hours and what has he said to you? >> i haven't spoken to him since friday, i believe and he was apologetic for having being in the photograph and that sort of

thing. so i was really surprised the next day when he comes out and says that was not him. >> i want to play something else he said, and that is he was talking about the climate of the '80s where he grew up. here he is, governor northam. >> while i did not appear in this photo i am not surprised by its appearance in the yearbook. in the place and time where i grew up, many actions that we rightfully recognize as abhorrent today were commonplace. >> congressman mceachin, this is one year before the state of virginia made history at that time and elected the first african-american statewide office holder in doug wilder as lieutenant governor in 1985. 1964, that would have made sense to me. 1984 in eastern virginia, this is the son of a judge and a schoolteacher, mind you. is that an explanation that you can accept? >> no. my family's been from virginia, and i've lived in the richmond area since third grade.

and i can tell you to the best of my knowledge it was not commonplace in 1984. but let's assume without conceding that it was indeed common place. slavery was commonplace. that doesn't make it right. massive resistance was commonplace, that doesn't make it right. jim crow was commonplace, that doesn't make it right. and so too if blackface was commonplace in 1984, that doesn't make it right. ralph should have known better. >> congresswoman bass, i'm sure you -- i'm sure some virginia democrats feel this way, the fact he won't leave. as i said there's only two people technically that haven't called for his resignation on the democratic side, barack obama and the current lieutenant governor. which it's understandable he would be directly benefit, so

he's been hesitant to fully call for the resignation. what other ways are there to get him out of office? >> well, i think that's up to the legislators, but i believe that they can impeach him. and i think that that is a perfect example of extending the pain. if he was sincere at all, he would recognize the pain that he has caused. but the way he described 1984, i mean that is just so not true. 1984 was a time of great hope. we were hopeful that we would have the first black president. that was in the middle of jessie jackson's campaign in the middle of the anti-apartheid movement. so he's basically shown he's not honest. he's disingeneralous. he needs to resign. and if he has any way he could regain his integrity, he should resign and then begin the conversation. >> it seems clear to me that his record says, does my public record matter at all? his first executive order is expanding what is discrimination in the state of virginia, and

that his explanation is when it's counted he's been on the right side of these issues. where does that fit in here as you make these determinations about his future? >> you know, we're certainly grateful for the contributions he's made to the betterment of virginia. but the question now is can you lead, can you help us heal? and given the actions he's demonstrated over the past 48 hours the answer is clearly not. you can't -- it can't be in the photograph one day and then it's not the next day. you can't excuse it all and say i know i didn't do blackface in this yearbook because i did it in a michael jackson dance contest. and by the way, i don't know if anybody heard it besides me, but his notion you can't get polish off your face easily suggests to me that was not the first time that he had tried blackface. so -- >> that jumped out at me, too, congressman. it was something i was going to bring up with the panel later. but, yeah, that was something you were going why do you have such familiarity with it. >> exactly. >> but he's also been inconsistent. he was great after charlottesville in terms of the

confederate monuments and then he back tracked on that and said, well, maybe we shouldn't get rid of them. maybe it should be a local decision. he's been inconsistent. >> congressman mceachin, i'd love for you to tell us about justin fairfax. there's poetic justice if he becomes the next governor. the day before he took the oath of lieutenant governor his father had done some research in his family trees and found the man you mission papers that freed his an zest -- ancestors. and he said it was the manumission papers for my three greats ago grandfather simon fairfax in 1798 and he was freed by the ninth lord fairfax. and so as i raised my right hand to take the oath of office i had the papers that freed my three greats ago grandfather. his surname comes from the descendent slave owner. that poetic justice to you, congressman? >> it's a wonderful story that

justin has. he's been a fantastic lieutenant governor. should he ascend to the governorship he'll be a fantastic governor. and i want america to remember this is the 400th anniversary of africans coming to the shores of jamestown in chains. so the look of that commemoration service combined with a governor talking about blackface and misleading us about blackface is not the look that i think virginia wants to portray to the nation. >> congressman mceachin, congresswoman bass, thank you for coming on this morning. much appreciated. >> thank you for your time. , you know, the first wave of calls for northam's resignation nationally came from those either running or considering running for president, including my next guest who just spent three days in iowa. democratic senator sherrod brown of ohio. welcome back to "meet the press." >> good to be back. >> you added your name. you said he's got to go. he doesn't want to go. let me ask this -- the question this way.

is there anything he could do to convince you he should remain in the public square to lead in the healing? >> well, he should remain in the public square by explaining and talking and working to heal. but he should do it from a position of private citizen. and i agree with congresswoman bass and congress man mceachin. about their insights. i think he should resign now. he then can contribute to this dialogue. but as i said he should do it as a private citizen. >> what does it say that something like this is now -- folks are now being held accountable for blackface in ways, frankly, we didn't have that kind of -- that strong of a moral code, i would argue, in our politics until recently. why do you think that is? >> well, i think this country hasn't dealt well with the issues of race. i mean, we have a president who is a racist. who we have -- >> let me pause you there.

you believe in his heart he's a racist? >> well, i don't know what in his heart means. i know that he built his political career knowing what he was doing on questioning the legitimacy and the birth place of the president of the united states. i know early there's been all kinds of news reports what he did early in his career on housing. we know -- i mean, read the new jim crow by michelle alexander. read the color of law about housing discrimination and decades and decades of housing discrimination. and we know the trump family including the now sitting president played to that and deepened that. so these issues that this is not a racist charlottesville was only a symptom and only a more public viewing and outing, if you will, about the president's views about race. i mean, there's just no question about that. we know the president doesn't tell the truth frequently. we know he lies frequently, and

we know of his racist comments and background. >> you spent -- >> that's not even counting the policies of this administration. we have consent decrees all over this country including in cleveland. we have a justice department that's turned its back on it. we know about voter suppression. i was secretary of state of ohio. my job when i was secretary of state was to encourage people of all races to vote, especially young people and especially young people of color. and we worked at that. we now have a government that suppresses the vote, and we know what happened in georgia and we know what happened in florida. >> one of the ways you've talked about your potential candidacy for president while you were in iowa, you talked about talking to the working class voters that you thought democrats had been ignoring. there is a racial component to that conversation as far as some are concerned, that the white working class vote, it's a cultural reason that even though the democratic policies, maybe they agree with but there are cultural reasons why they're not

comfortable with the democratic party. how do you bridge that divide, because it feels like race plays a role in this. >> listen to what we've been saying whether it's in iowa or when i'm going to south carolina in a couple of weeks or our hometown of cleveland. and where connie and i live in a racially mixed neighborhood, of course. when you talk about the dignity of work, i'm talking about all workers. whether you swipe a badge or punch a clock, whether you're working on salary, working for tips, whether you shower before work or after work, whether you're raising kids. and always recognizing women and people of color have even more challenges in the workplace in terms of wages, in terms of benefits, in terms of schedules where they arrange child care and their employer then changes the hours that they're working. so the dignity of work is clearly all workers of this country. and if it's -- it's a pitch to the broad numbers of people in this country that aren't treated well, that don't -- that work hard every day and simply aren't getting ahead.

if you love your country you'll fight for the people who make it work across all races, and that's the theme of my campaign. if i do run for president, certainly the theme of the dignity of work. >> you know, you said something else to yahoo news earlier this week. you were talking about your election in ohio -- your recent re-election in ohio. you said there are 88 counties in ohio. i won 16 of them and i won the state by seven points. but in many of those other 72 counties we got emasculated. they weren't even close. there's a bigger divide between the metro areas and the smaller towns. what did you mean by emasculated there, and what is the divide? >> that may not be the exact right word. maybe massacred, maybe blown away. what did president obama say after the elections he had a good word about how we didn't do so well in some states. one of the reasons in iowa we started in 15 below zero weather, and went to mason city and went to smaller towns

because wall street overlooks the by-passes of those towns and state and federal government just ignores those towns. like my hometown of mansfield. those towns are often racially mixed. this isn't a metro diverse area versus a white rural area. these are small towns that are hurt from globalization, hurt from a tax policy, and the president's tax law you shut down production in dubuque and we had a great turnout. you shut down production in dubuque and move overseas, you get a 15% in taxes. >> i want to talk about some of the issues that could divide democrats a bit. one of them is the issue of universal health care. and you've got some calling for medicare for all. you've got michael bloomberg who almost seems to share a little bit of your frustration when it comes to overpromising. take a listen to what michael

bloomberg said in responding to a whole bunch of these ideas. >> i'm a little bit tired of listening to things that are pie in the sky that we're never going to pass, never going to afford. i think it's disingenuous to promote those things. >> you seem to say you're asked about medicare for all, and while you said kind things about it, you seem to express a similar frustration. we talk about it, talk about it, make no progress. that's a mistake. how do you campaign on incrementalism when some voters want big, bold change that probably is difficult to follow through with? >> nobody accused me in my career of being an incremental hisist. i always fought for bold change. i live in a state where trump's promises of bringing back jobs and reindustrialization and opening up new factories has clearly fallen flat. i know a lot about a president overpromising and breaking those promises and selling out and betraying workers.

but let me answer the question this way. i was in dubuque. a woman came up to me early 60s. she told connie and me that her husband had died of cancer. she quit her job to take care of him. she is very anxious about what happens to her health care now. so i want to expand medicare. i'm for universal coverage. i did for years pay my own insurance. connie and i are on the obamacare exchanges with millions getting the insurance. if we move -- i have helped senator whitehouse of rhode island. and we work for medicare for all. i want to help people quickly. i want to pass medicare at 55 or even 50 so she can get coverage and her life can improve and she can have that anxiety allayed so she can have a better life with her kids and grand kids. that's what i want to see done. >> all right, senator brown, unfortunately i have to leave it there. much appreciate you coming on and sharing your views, and we

hope to see you first when you make your final decision. thank you, senator. >> all right, thank you for that. when we come back why the ralph northam debacle is more bigger than the fate of just one politician. the panel is next. l is next.one? life is full of make-or-break moments. that's why it's so important to help reduce your risk of fracture with prolia®. only prolia® is proven to help strengthen and protect bones from fracture with 1 shot every 6 months. do not take prolia® if you have low blood calcium, are pregnant, are allergic to it, or take xgeva®. serious allergic reactions, like low blood pressure; trouble breathing; throat tightness; face, lip, or tongue swelling; rash; itching; or hives have happened. tell your doctor about dental problems as severe jaw bone problems may happen or new or unusual pain in your hip groin, or thigh, as unusual thigh bone fractures have occurred. speak to your doctor before stopping prolia® as spine and other bone fractures have occurred. prolia® can cause serious side effects, like low blood calcium, serious infections,

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or if you need a lot, we have unlimited, too. you could save hundreds of dollars when you switch to xfinity mobile. it's simple, easy, awesome. click, call or visit a store today. welcome back. the panel is here. eugene robinson, maria theresa kumar and hallie jackson and rich lauer and mark leibovich. chief national correspondent for "the times" magazine. to reinforce this notion that's pretty much no one left in the democratic party who's not called on northam, we have to do a scroll. and these are just the prominent folks who have called for his resignation. you'll see james comey on there as well. for some reason he chimed in. he's a virginia resident. eugene robinson, the only two people left are justin fairfax and barack obama. >> exactly. >> i feel like barack obama is the closer here, the last hostage negotiator to call on

come on, governor northam. >> you would think that the two sitting senators, tim kaine and mark warner plus the dean of the congressional delegation, bobby scott, you'd think them calling and saying you have to go would have done it. because the entire democratic party in virginia is against him, says he has to go. he's supposed to be the governor of virginia. you can't do that. i mean, how do you effectively govern the state of the virginia? and the answer is you cannot if you're ralph northam. you probably could not after friday's story. you definitely could not after yesterday's -- >> press conference made it worse? >> absolutely made it worse. >> if there's one thing i've learned covering donald trump and his administration, the life span of a political scandal can be very short. there are some who say we has to stay the governor, he has to accept he's going to be a lonely pariah who is weak and

ineffective. but he could stay in that job because the only way out is for the legislature would be to impeach him. i'm not setting aside what he should do. every democrat says what he should do is step down. what he could do is hunker down for the next six months and accept he's going to be ineffective. >> because the word should it's very irrelevant here, it's confined very much to one party. you could say steve king should resign, donald trump should have stepped out of the race in 2015. the fact is one of the safest jobs you can be in america is a public figure is if you're only accountable to voters. >> i think the difference between the individuals that you mention is the democratic party has really demonstrated the brand. they actually said, look, we are going to be a zero-tolerance party. that is why al franken had to go, and this is why northam has to go. and the reason has to be a zero-tolerance party is a lot of folks will say he did this when he was 24, now it's 35 years ago. do we want to have this

conversation in 35 years when two years we had tiki torches marching down charlottesville and they're young and impressionable? that's not okay. >> and the arrival of the first africans who were enslaved in jamestown as congressman mceachin mentioned. that's going to be going on all year, marking that day, all year. >> you went to uva, went to public schools in northern virginia. you are virginian through and through. i'm just curious how are you feeling this morning? >> well, not a great day for virginia. i had no use for ralph northam prior to this. i found his comments on abortion totally repellent. last week i torched his credibility over this. i do think outside of northam and other specifics of this case and how mall adroit how he's handled this, but

i'm also concerned about political culture where lapses are used to entirely define someone's life and career, especially if there's no evidence they're part of the pattern. >> eugene, that to me is sort of what we're struggling with. we have zero-tolerance, and yet his record on the public square was pretty good. >> okay. so we could have had this discussion, you know, at another time. we could have had this discussion when he was running for governor. we could have had this discussion, this information out there for voters to use as they decided who to vote for for governor. he was elected -- he would not had not african -- he would not have been elected if african-americans had not voted for him. i mean, it just -- that's how the electorate works in virginia. and so it's pastime -- had he disclosed this question, now, he says i didn't know about my own yearbook page photograph, which is not credible. >> but he did know about -- >> but he did know about the

shoe polish and michael jackson. we didn't know. >> i think the crux of the issue really is, is the democratic party going to espouse any leeway for this to happen? i say this because in order for them to be the party of authenticity, the party of the future, they will need every single voter coming into the 2020 election. if they allow any kind of movement their coalition breaks down and they have to be clear we are moving forward. >> you talk about there's a sort of this struggle between what rich talked about, democrats aren't struggling with that. democrats have made up their mind about what they want. my question for ralph northam is what do you want? because if you want to be governor and be not effective, and you're not chair of the dga, my friend, you're not going to get a spot at the speaking convention, do you want to stay in the governor's mansion no matter what or be someone who has these conversations to heal? it doesn't seem like his path is the one. >> inject a little cynicism into this conversation. we are in washington. this is gimme for democrats, right?

because the lieutenant governor has much more political upside. he's a compelling figure, he's an african-american with a great story and he can run again after serving out the rest of northam's term. so politically this is easy. >> to follow up on it, if the lieutenant governor were republican right now, i think the resignation calls would be there, but would we have a different reaction? >> i don't think so. i don't think the reaction would be different. and again especially after yesterday i think people who watched and listened to that press conference yesterday lost confidence in -- >> i was going to play the moonwalk moment, but we're low on time. but the moonwalk moment you're just like what did i just see? >> it's a car crash. >> thank god for the first lady. >> what he was a democratic senator and there was a republican governor of virginia? that would be a different conversation. the fact is i don't think this is settled law in the democratic party. i don't think it's settled law within politics.

i think there are a lot of gray areas here. and if you talk to people who have jumped out of the ring, whether it's gary hart in 1988 or al franken in 2017 or whenever it was, they will say that they struggled with whether they should get out or not. that's the seminole question. >> the american public are sick and tired of having to rehash the conversations. so in 35 r years we don't want this conversation. you actually have to weed it out. >> i think you have to make some allowance because we're human beings for stupidity, bad taste, ignorance and be willing to accept sincere apologies. >> but i think the challenge was he did not come out and tell the american people, i may have done blackface. i mean -- >> i covered it friday night when it was breaking. you couldn't get in touch with the governor's office if your life depended on it and then he came out and said i didn't do that racist thing. so i think there are some people questioning how sincere he was.

>> if there was a ballot box, you could say let the voters decide but he's not going tock on the ballot box. >> never, no. if we weren't talking about something that in 1884 or 1934 or something like that, i think i would have perhaps a different reaction. i would perhaps accept his oh, well everybody did it. but everybody didn't do that in 1984. it's just simply the case, everybody didn't do that. everybody didn't put shoe polish on their face. >> right. again, the state of virginia was one year away from making history with doug wilder. when we come back, that sound you hear is the clock ticking down to another shutdown deadline. governor rick scott of florida joins me next. rida joins me next. fight both fast tums chewy bites with gas relief all in one relief of heartburn and gas ♪ ♪ tum tum tum tums tums chewy bites with gas relief i can't tell you anything about myself. but believe me... i'm not your average consumer.

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welcome back. with two weeks for the president and congressional leaders to make a border deal, republican leader mitch mcconnell is reportedly warning president trump both in public and in private against using his exit ramp, a national emergency

declaration. but is the president listening? >> i'm for whatever works, which means avoiding a shutdown and avoiding the president feeling he should declare a national emergency. >> i think there's a good chance that we'll have to do that. but we will at the same time be building -- regardless we're building a wall and we're building a lot of wall, but i can do it a lot faster the other way. >> joining me now is republican senator rick scott of florida. and i say senator because this is his first time on the show as senator. senator scott, welcome. and have you decided like a bunch of other senators that you miss the old title? >> chuck, it's a different job. i ran for the job because i want to get something done. d.c. is dysfunctional. it's very frustrating. >> let's start with this frustrating topic. you actually -- it's ironic. you had to take the oath during a shutdown. all of these new members elected

in 2018 taking an oath -- talk about a metaphor for dysfunction. has the president in his threat of the shutdown still, does that undermine the negotiations that are happening now on capitol hill? >> well, first off i don't think it's the first thing you want to do is use your emergency power to do things like this. but if i was the president right now, i'd be pretty frustrated. everyone says, oh, gosh, we don't juan government shut down and everybody says we need border security. and you see nancy pelosi sit there and say there's not going to be any money for a wall and say you have to have barriers. it's like they're actors. there's just a lot of hatred up there for president trump on the democrat side. and we've got to get something done. it's not my first choice for using an emergency power. he's proposed things. chuck schumer and nancy pelosi are not negotiating with him in good faith, i don't believe. so if i were sitting in his position i would go out there

and say i'm going to use whatever power i have to solve the problem. we have to take care of the daca kids. we need to have a permanent solution for tps. let's go start solving these problems instead of talking, talking and nothing gets done. >> tps, by the way, temporary protected status in quite a few communities in florida and i know it's particularly some central american immigrants in particular on that. i want to ask you about something you just said. you said nancy pelosi and chuck schumer were being disingenuous and the president wasn't. i'm just sort of curious. he walked away from two deals on the table and then he walks away, so why should democrats trust the president? daca for the wall was about a 48 hour deal and then the president walked away from that. and senator mcconnell thought he had a deal at least to avoid a shutdown and the president walked away from that. is this really just on the democrats? doesn't president trump own some of this disingenuousness? >> everybody does. you know, you've got -- everybody's got to act in good

faith. everybody's got to stop saying this is all about -- if this is about winning and losing, it's not. it's about what's good for the american public. the public wants border security. the public doesn't want a government shutdown. you know, i ran basically saying we've got to change direction in washington, we need to have term limits. you do a shutdown, you don't pass a budget, congress shouldn't get paid. we've got to make sure people start working together, and i think everybody's got to figure out how to do that, and i'm going to try my best to be part of that. >> what is it you think is a reasonable compromise at this point? would you advise the president to take half of the money he's asking for at this point, actually come to a compromise, acknowledge a divided government? what would your advice be to the president? i know you and him are professionally very close. >> what i would say to him is we have to have border security. from my standpoint what i would want is i want a permanent fix. let's fund and let's talk to -- which i did a week or so ago. i sat down with border security. what do you need?

they need people, they need technology, they need barriers. we need to do a permanent -- i think what i like is to fix everything. fix that, welcome our dreamers, permanent solution for tps. but i'd start the path. what i did as governor what could i get done today, and i did it, and i went forward with the next thing. >> you know, there is a compromise on the shelf. in fact, your colleague marco rubio in the senate was one of the -- essentially one of the sponsors and organizers of it. the gang of eight compromise of 2013, you were governor of florida at that time. what's wrong with that compromise? it had new barriers, it dealt with daca. as michael bennett said very dramatically on the senate floor, it had $46 billion in border security funding, not just $5 billion. >> well, first of all, i want to thank marco rubio because i know he's been a big proponent of taking care of the dreamers and working on trying to fix tps and

working on border security. i think we need to look at all the provisions and look at where we're at today and look at things like that and do a big deal. but i want to get something done. i do not want government shut down, i want to have border security. people have to stop being actors and sit down and get something done. we shouldn't going go to a negotiation like nancy pelosi did and say there's going to be no money for a wall. there has to be border security. there has to be barriers. we all know that. >> this issue of shutdown versus national emergency, if the president doesn't want to do national emergency but won't sign this deal, you're stuck with a shutdown. what do you do as a senate republican? >> i think it's going to be tough. i think it's going to be very difficult. i was very frustrated as it example, our coast guard didn't get paid during the shutdown. first off, i don't like shutdowns. but our coast guard, part of the military didn't get paid, and we had a bill sponsored to do that and chuck schumer stopped that, even. there's so much hatred up there right now and people aren't working together.

we've got to stop and say let's act in the best interest of the american public instead of how do i win the next election? >> i want to switch gears here. the issue of venezuela, which is the line -- the president has not ruled out sending the military in. we've sent humanitarian aid in. i assume it has some military protection as we send that aid in. when do you think it is appropriate to send in the american military to overthrow maduro? >> well, chuck, what you hope is if maduro understands that is an option, if he actually believes that's an option and world leaders all over are telling him you've got to step aside and you see those protests yesterday, then i think he'll hopefully step aside. >> do you think the president needs to be more aggressive and threatening the use of force? >> no, i think they've been clear. i think they've been clear that everything's on the table. i mean, we're seeing -- look at the number of people that protested again yesterday.

we're starting to see the military move now, which is the key right now. that's the only thing that's propping up maduro and the cuban thugs that are there. so i'm optimistic something is going to happen here. i spoke to juan guaido last week. i said i'll do everything i can to help. you feel so sorry. nine out of ten families don't have enough money for food. the kids have malnutrition. i heard stories on friday from a lot of venezuelans. and you can't believe why would maduro be doing this to his citizens. everything's got to be on the table. i hope we never have to use military force but everything has to be on the table. >> all right, rick scott, thank you for coming on and sharing your views, sir. good to see you here. >> thanks, chuck. when we come back, for decades politicians like to claim there's just little difference between the two political parties. people don't believe that anymore, and we have the numbers to prove it. that's next. that's next. is this for real? yep. we match all the cash back

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we are back. data download time. two years into the trump presidency and americans now agree that the two political parties represent two drastically different points of

view. that doesn't shock you today but it's shocking. 54% of americans say there's a great deal of difference between the two parties. this is actually the first time that a majority of the country has agreed on that issue. consider in 1987 only 25% of respondents said the same thing. in fact, the exact same especially of people said there was hardly any difference between the two parties in the late 1980s. right now, though, this divide seems just fine. particularly with republicans. in fact, they want more separation from the democrats. 57% of republicans say they want the party to be more conservative than it is now. only 39% think it should be more moderate. democrats, on the other hand, though, seem to be a bit more uneasy about the party's move to the left. only 40% of democrats, not a majority, think the party should be more liberal. that's not something you'd like to hear if you were, say, bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.

54% of democrats think the party should take a more moderate route. do any of these divides provide an opening for a viable third party candidate? according to a gallup poll from the fall, 57% of americans still believe that a third major party is necessary. i have seen it as high as 65%. in this poll it includes 54% of democrats, the same percent who want democrats to be more moderate. hmm. those could be the voters that someone like howard schultz ask hoping to pick up if he runs as an independent. looking at this data we can expect more of the same from president trump heading into the 2020 election. he knows what his voters want and it's not moderation. on the other side though, we keep hearing of democrats lurching to the left. that may be true of some democratic candidates but this suggest that party voters may want something a bit more moderate. they may be looking for someone who is a bit more electable. and when we come back, we'll look at the fight for the democratic nomination and at the looming deadline for another government shutdown.

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built. >> the chant now should pea finished the wall as opposed to building the wall, because we're building a lot of wall. we haven't declared a national emergency yet and yet we're building a lot of wall. we have a lot of appropriation, it's already been done. >> is there a white house strategy? i know that's -- >> i mean, listen there is in the sense they're keeping this national emergency idea in the president's back pocket. i don't know it's going to happen tuesday night at "state of the union." i think there's some question marks around that particular piece of it. i do think here's what i see when i talk to my sources in the administration and sources on the hill. the common area is it's fencing. we are now in the semantics argument of what is a wall and when is it a barrier. there are people in the white house who would be happy with the idea of fencing. there are democrats who have now signaling increaseingly okay wih the idea of fencing.

this could be where this is heading as long as there's not some last minute curve ball from president trump. >> it's obvious how this deal looks like. >> he goes back and forth on messaging. either it's being built or we need to shutdown the government or declare a national emergency to build it. you just take what you can get in this negotiation, do the same next year and then you have a convention video with this slat fence that will look quite impressive and that seems to me the most realistic alternative. because the national emergency is not another way to win, it's just another way to lose. even if you win in the supreme court, that's 12, 18 months of nothing happening. >> you said the word realistic, and so that's so last century. that's not the trump presidency. so, yeah, that deal is obviously there. and it's about semantics. but will the president take it or will he blow it up at the last minute?

and i think he probably will -- >> mitch mcconnell actually led a vote into the floor, and i think the challenge for the president is he knows the majority of americans want this, but do his pundits, the people in his ear want it? do the rush limbaughs of the world want it, and that is his challenge. >> if he tries to do this a semantics thing to say this wall has already been built, he will be mocked by his base. it might be like the rank and file, but this will accept him to a great degree, and he'll be seen as weak and it'll embarrass him. >> i want to pivot to 2020. we had a lot happening this week. the howard schultz was among them, cory booker getting in. the question is which way democratic primary voters will bet. on some boring centrist who will never even try to deliver the radical change so many of them crave -- that's probably as good

of an expression of this divide as any. >> sure. because i cover the white house and donald trump, on the campaign side for that, sources sort of familiar with that, you know who they're looking at very interestedly is howard schultz just as much as democrats are as well. buzz that changes a lot of the ways they're going to go strategies and plan and do some of their -- >> are they looking at him with enthusiasm? >> obviously enthusiasm. it changes the way they would end up doing some of the things in their strategy moving forward. >> howard schultz is sort of a budding campaign. it's not official. but they did some polling. they did polling following this week where he got beaten, the living daylight out of him in the media, there's two match ups of trump, harris, schultz and trump, warren schultz. this is poll conducted after the roll outs. essentially trump and harris tied, schultz sitting at 17.

the point they wanted to make sure is, hey, even after this horrible rollout where he got battered less and sometimes right, he's still sitting in the mid-teens, which their argument shows you how much room there is for an independent. >> well orb its the half castro. look, is he trying to make the point of the democrats, because they could be up by 7, 8 points in these polls and yet you have donald trump in the lead. so it's hard to see what they're trying to do here except he has gained some traction. >> there is room for him. >> room for him to lose. there's no path for him to win the presidency. there just isn't. >> and for the democrats to lose, i think what the democrats are really counting on is more of a piece of the nominee on their end to bring in a lot of independent and moderate americans who do not like where their party is going. schultz basically tears that way

away. >> if you're really worried about this liberal democratic good standing the day before standing, cleaving off enough moderate voters to swing the election, moderate on some issues. and that's one thing basically the democratic party seems to have zero interest -- >> no, what's happening in the democratic party is about interest. it's very healthy, very good. to talk about actual issues -- you know, universal health care has been democratic policy for -- >> that could end up being the biggest issue come iowa note. please join myself along with my colleagues and the entire nbc news team on tuesday for the president's "state of the union" address. our live coverage will begin at 9:00 eastern, 6:00 pacific. that's all for today. thank you for watching. enjoy the super bowl. for everybody except in new orleans enjoy the exhibition game. >> missed highlights of the

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i'm kasie hunt, a special edition for you and to the. the results of which even tony romo can't predict. just in, the president sending more u.s. forces to the border with mexico. plus, we have a brand-new scoop out tonight from axios as they get hands on months of the president's private schedule. let's just say there's reportedly a lot of executive time. and later, i'll ask republican deputy whip tom cole where negotiations stand to keep the government running, with the