bader ginsburg was back following surgery to treat lung cancer. that's the first time she had missed courtroom arguments since joining the court in 1993. that does it for me. you can always check out the beneath on 6:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. constitutional shutdown. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. we've got lot of news to get to tonight, including breaking developments in the russia investigations. but first, as expected today president trump declared a national emergency at the southern border to secure money to build a wall and address what he calls an invasion. >> so we're going to confront the national security crisis on our southern border and we're going to do it one way or the other we have to do it.

not because it was a campaign promise, which it is. it was one of many, by the way, not my only one. >> it's a great thing to do because we have an invasion of drugs, invasion of gangs, invasion of people and it's unacceptable. >> everyone knows the walls work and there are better examples than el paso, frankly. you take a look everywhere. every day knows that. nancy knows it. chuck knows it. they all know it. it's a big lie, it's a big con game. we don't need a military because we'd have a wall. >> the president later signed the bipartisan spending bill to avert a government shutdown. he would not concede because he couldn't get a better deal from the bipartisan compromise which was a fraction of the $5.3 billion he had been demanding >> i went through congress and i made a deal. i got almost $1.4 billion when i

wasn't supposed to get $1. not one. and i've we've already done a lot of wall for the election. 2020. and the only reason we're up here talking about this is because of the election because they want to try to win an election which it looks like they're not going to be able to do. >> the president is hoping to unlock roughly $6.5 billion to add to the $1.4 billion congress already provided to fencing. >> on the wall, they skimped so i was successful in that sense, but i want to do it faster. i could do actual over a longer period of time. i didn't need to do this, but i'd rather do it much faster. >> house speaker nancy pelosi responded to that comment, trump saying i didn't need to do this with a tweet asking clearest sign that donald trump's fake

emergency is not legit. just a faster way to force tabs payers to the bill after congress wouldn't let him have his way. speaker pelosi vowed the congress will defend our constitutional authority using every remember diavailable. two republicans, senator mike lee of utah and tom till lis both expressed their zmoi disappointment. i'm joined by danielle modi mills, jonathan lemire, white house reporter frot associated press, and noah rothman and the author of "unjust. social justice in the unmaking of america." thank you so much for being with us. congressman, let me start with you. we just put that statement up there for your leader in the house, speaker nancy pelosi. they both said they're going to

use every tool they have at their disposal. what are you going to do to fight this? >> first of all of we should make clear there is no emergency at the border. they're at 40-year low. the president's own intelligence community when thaw did their assessment barely references the southern border and certainly dont identify as an emergency. so what we'll do is a resolution of disapproval in the congress, house, and senate that will disapprove of the evocation of this emergency. if that is vetoed by the president, then there will be a legal challenge. but look, this is the president attempting to circumvent the will of the american people through congress. we have the power to make appropriations. that's our constitutional duty. the president is trying to circumvent that process by making up a fake emergency in order to take money and taking money from military construction

and counternarcotics work, the very things he claims he's worried about. he's taking away billions of dollars of resources from them. this is really about the rule of law, separation of powers, checks and balances. this is a if you met question of whether or not our republican colleagues are going to join us in standing up to protect the prerogative of congress and the american people to make decisions about how taxpayer money is spent >> that's the question. you're talking about a resolution of disapproval here. i've seen this idea put out that maybe legislation would be offered clarifies. you would either need 2/3 majority to override that veto. you would need more republicans than we've seen break with this president on anything, would have to join with you or failing that, you would need the court to intervene. is that really the end game from

your standpoint. are you going to need the courts to step in? >> i hope our republican colleagues will join us. we haven't seen willingness to hold this president accountable and call out this abuse of power. there have been some republicans already expressing displeasure with the president's decision, whether we would have enough to sustain a veto is unclear but it's likely to end up in the courts and we will fully litigate this to make sure this president doesn't think he's an imperial king that just gets to circumvent the rule of law in this country. >> no question how this is playing on the republican side. mitch mcconnell, senate majority leader will back the president on this. we have mike lee saying he wants to revisit these powers. tom till lis, potentially, lamar alexander. how much slippage do you think

trump will have on the republican side? is it only going to be a handful or will it grow? a lot of republicans skprefd displeasure with the president's move. mitch mcconnell is a very good shepherd of his conference. i suspect that there won't be much breakage, but that's extremely frustrating. just about everybody, including the president, wants this to end up in courts. i don't think they want to go through the motions of exproposeiating property along the board, having to defend the efficacy of a physical barrier in the event it gets built. everyone wants to outsource their power to the judiciary, and it's an extraordinarily damning set of conditions here. the scheme is falling apart. no longer is congress a steward of its authority. no longer is the executive branch assuming the powers and consulting with congress. it's demonstrating contempt for congress's verdict on this measure. all in all it's not going to resolve itself

>> what you're getting is is the cynical forecast for this was all along, john. they're going to be at an impasse here, trump is going to have to reopen the government at some point. it's going to basically be on the democrats' terms because they see no incentive to fold. therefore trump will reopen the government and then he will do this executive action, declare this emergency, some court will strike it down and he'll be able to say, hey, i fought on this. are you getting any indication from the white house that that is what basically is going on here? >> people close to the president believe that the most important thing is not the wall, but the fight for the wall. that's exactly right. this is sort of been telegraph for a while. certainly the argument can be made that the white house have botched the first couple years of their term when the republicans held the house, they could have done more in terms of obtaining funding for the wall. they're left with a a democratic house. the president tried to spin it, i got a billion or so dollars.

there's no question it's a defeat, but he couldn't afford another government shutdown. the last one, which lasted more than a month, took an absolute toll on his poll numbers, rare moment in private conversations, he's shown an awareness, and he knows that was bad and can't do it again. this is way to wiggle out of that. it's going to end up on the courts and he can go on the campaign trail and talk to his supporters about how he fought for that wall. the democrats are weak on border security and maybe there will be a judge who will rule against him and he can blame that person as well. odd sing songy way. >> before he became president too, donald trump said he was no fan of the executive orders that president obama issued. >> obama signs his executive orders all day long because he didn't get along with anybody. it's not the way it's supposed to work.

>> that wasn't the way our founders set up this country. you understand that. it's not part of the deal. >> he just does executive orders and i guess he says take to us court in five years, some judge will make a determines. it's so wrong. >> i will terminate every single illegal obama executive order. i will restore the constitutional law to this country. >> he certainly did something that was unconstitutional. i think certainly he could be impeached. >> danielle, something i've been hearing from democrats is basically, okay, hey, if president trump is going to say i have the power to declare an emergency, i'm going to say the border is an emergency, i don't have to do this this right now, but i'm still going to call it an emergency, then i'll take money appropriated for x and spend it on y, if that ends up somehow holding up when the courts review this and that exists, then why can't the next democratic president say climate change is the emergency, gun control is the emergency, take any item on the progressive wish

list that you'll have trouble getting through congress, here's your answer. >> this right now is political catnip right now. the idea that this president is declaring an emergency that he himself is saying is not really an emergency, he just wants to expedite the process, is setting a dangerous precedent for the next democratic president, for the next republican president to decide on a whim whenever they want to that something is a national emergency. we are one year yesterday from parkland. mass shootings, gun violence in this country is actually a national emergency. 100 people die every day from gun violence. there have been 25 shootings since the beginning of the year and we're only at february 15th. so if you want to declare a national emergency, now would have been the time to do it around gun violence, but we're not doing that. we're doing what trump wants, which is to appease his base because that's all anybody cares about. you look at the numbers, but we know that they don't believe in facts or read, but the idea here is that, oh, i don't know, since we've had the lowest immigration

rates since 2016. we know that crime by undocumented people is actually very low in areas where there is an influx of undocumented people. and so here are the numbers, the numbers tell the truth that there is not an invasion that is happening. you just did coverage yesterday at the wall. it looked quite calm and pleasant. not like an invasion or a caravan was marching down the path. when we look at the truth and the facts of the case, it's up to democrats to lay that out for the people. >> i guess the question i'm asking is longer term -- one of the stories here with the trump era i'm seeing is democrats have changed in a lot of ways in response to what trump revealed is possible maybe in our era of politics. democrats can say two can play at this game. >> but that is dangerous for our constitution and dangerous for the american public. i don't want two can play at

this game maneuvering that's happening right now. this is our constitution and it's about the powers of the executive branch, there are checks and balances for a reason. but sure, down the road when something happens, when there is a democratic president, god willing, in 2020, and we're looking at climate change, which would by then will have been eight years until we're headed towards a meltdown, while they they declare a martin luther king jr.? maybe no one can -- the idea that you can do whatever you want when you want it as a whim or with your ego is not what the founding fathers thought about when they declared the presidency. it's not right >> in terms of the republican base, the conservative base, the question i have, take the members of congress out of it and look at the talk show crowd, if you will. ann coulter is going at trump as hard as i've ever seen her go at him on this. we're always talk about this question of trump's bias.

are they going to turn on him on this, is he going to lose? does this have bearing what ann coulter is saying because in terms of his supporters until relatively recently when it came to the wall, she was there at the forefront? >> donald trump is the president. this is the second time he's told ann coulter where she can go. if hiss base is going to abandon him over the wall, they would have abandoned him a long time ago. this is not about the wall. trump is the protagonist. it's not about border security or a crisis on the border. it is about whatever the president seeks. what the president has done here is erode the civic compact in several ways, particularly on national security. he has eninvoked national security on multiple occasions to evoke constituencies. he did so in order to right ahead farmers who were hurt by his tariff trade war.

he almost did when he almost ordered the department of energy to buy above-market price of power from inefficient coal, and now he's eninvoked national security to get his campaign trail promise met. these are precedents that cannot be unset. when you strike, ring this bell, it cannot be unrunning. and the next president will be inclined to invoke these precedents because the base will demand it. >> we'll mention that role of conservative media, it's featured into what the president said. he spoke about the influence of media in his decision. >> to what degree do the icu voices help to shape your views on this national emergency. >> sean hannity has been a terrific supporter of what i do. not of me. rush limbaugh is a great guy.

ann coulter, i don't know her. i hardly have spoken to her in way over a year. but the press loves saying ann coulter. probably if i did speak to her she would be very nice. >> i like her, but she's off the reservation, but anybody that knows her understands that. >> again, coulter has been criticizing trump for not getting the wall done. today she said that the wall is his mandate. >> no one thought, oh, look, he was governor of the biggest state in the union, he used to run the cia, he was reagan's vice president. you know, he was fdr's. no. it was one thing, the promise he made every single day at every single speech. >> on his campaign trail. >> so forget the fact that he's digging his own grave. this is just -- look, the only national emergency is that our president is an idiot. >> ann coulter during the campaign -- >> that's the first time i've agreed with her ever.

>> more broadly, though, this event today, even people who are i think a little more sympathetic to trump, said this performance by his standards was uneven. what was going on behind the scenes there. >> that's a kind phrase. you knew white house reporters who gathered in the rose garden knew they were in for something when they realized there were no he were telepromters up. he proceeded to go on for 50 minutes, beginning with a rambling defense of his administration's accomplishments that had nothing to do with the issue at hand, with border security, or the wall. and then he proceeded to joust with reporters. we saw the fake news slur he tossed out time after time and the sing-song rendition of what's going to happen to this emergency. the people i talked to, republicans were a bit unnerved. again, will any of them take that moment and step forward? we'll see. there were some republican senators in advance of this

declaration who expressed real reservations. marco rubio and others. will they stick to that now that the declaration has been declared? we've seen a few republicans do it already, but senate majority leader mcconnell is unlikely to let slippage. the president needs to sell this. one of his advisers said to me he was disappointed. this is one of the most important moments in his presidency so far. he's declaring a national emergency. you got to sell this to the public. instead it was rambling defense and then it turned into a campaign rally. i don't know that he sold that at all >> thank you to jonathan lemire, danielle moodie-mills, david cicilline. coming up, new information tonight in the mueller probe. another prominent player in the trump white house has spoken to the special counsel. roger stone is ordered to stop talking in public. plus, a possible primary challenge to president trump for massachusetts governor william

weld. interparty can inflict damage. spike lee plays "hardball" later on. >> come on. america would never elect somebody like david duke, president of the united states. >> coming from a black man, that's pretty naive. >> could the legendary filmmaker make history at the oscars with "blackkklansman? we have a lot to get to. liberty mutual has just announced that they can customize your car insurance so that you only pay for what you need. this is phoebe buckley, on location. uh... thanks, phoebe. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." we're following developments in the russia probe today. the first involves the case of roger stone, trump's former political adviser who was indicted last month. a federal judge today issued a partial gag order, ordering stone to refrain from making any statements to the press, quote, that pose a substantial likelihood of material prejudice to this case. stone has used several colorful

analogies to describe the probe and has recently pushed the theory that the fbi tipped off cnn prior to his arrest. meanwhile, white house press secretary sarah sanders confirmed that she was interviewed by the special counsel's investigators, telling nbc news that, quote, i was happy to voluntary sit down with them. there is no indication she's in legal jeopardy, however, one area of scrutiny may relate to the white house's response to news of the trump tower meeting with a russian lawyer in june of 2016, specifically the misleading statement the president drafted aboard air force one on behalf of his son. at the time sanders pubically defended that statement as being true. >> the statement that don junior issued is true. there's no inaccuracy in the statement. >> finally, the special counsel today asked a federal judge in virginia to move up the sentencing date in the case of paul manafort, asking for a sentence of 19 to 24 years. joining me me jeremy bash,

cynthia oxnard, and susan dell percentio. thanks to you for being with us. cynthia, let me start with you on that news at the end, 19 to 24 years for paul manafort. what do you make of that? >> ouch, ouch. what i make of it is we knew that was coming because as soon as the cooperation agreement was torn up. the question is not that the years, and i understand that the fine is, like, $24 million. it's not that. it's why. why would he take this risk? why would he go be a 69-year-old man who would take 20 years? what is so important that he has had to lie and to hide that? and that is the most important question, not how much money is in the restitution. and we just don't know the answer to that but it's the burning question >> do you think that's a

question that's going to be answered? >> i do. i have faith in the justice system. the wheels turn slowly, but they do turn. >> jeremy, in terms of that situation there with sarah huckabee sanders, she says she voluntary talked to the special counsel. the fact that they were talking to her, again, people are looking at that statement she made in her capacity as the press secretary for the white house about that trump tower meeting. you see in the clip there she was essentially saying that what donald trump jr. said in the statement was literally true. the count >> she's a government official. she's paid by the taxpayers. i would hope that she would voluntarily cooperate with a federal criminal investigation where a senior high-ranking government officials are the subject of that investigation, including the president. i think clearly she was not telling the truth from the

podium when she said that don jr.'s recollection of that meeting was correct. of course, that meeting was a russian government delegation meeting with the high command of the trump campaign to talk about sanctions relief. the trump campaign met at the senior levels with this russian delegation after it was made clear that it was part of the russian government's effort to support donald trump. if you combine that along with the roger stone connection with the russian intelligence officers through wikileaks as well as the meetings between manafort and kilimnik, including the one in august of 2016, there i think you can see what the prosecutors are focusing on when they think about a conspiracy between the trump campaign and the russian federation. >> you mentioned roger stone, today a partial gag order being imposed. what effect do you think that's going to have? >> lawyers have to keep their mouths shut, but they have to do

that anyway under rules of court. but when roger stone goes in and out of the courthouse, he can't speak to the media. and then at the end the judge said something very interesting. she said, and i urge him to keep his mouth shut on talk shows and twitter because if he asks for relief because of bad pretrial publicity, i'm going to look conceptically at that because, in fact, he may have been the one to have engendered that publicity. >> it's interesting to watch the roger stone spectacle. you know this is somebody with quite a bit of history here, obviously quite a bit of history with donald trump. the impression i had just watching all of this is that all of the traditional threats that prosecutors could make about you'll do this much time, your reputation will be destroyed, he seems to relish that this will be his reputation. he relishes the potential to fight this in public, and i

can't imagine from a legal standpoint, just from a standpoint how he seems to define his reputation. >> i almost thought he would plead guilty just so he can talk about it. to get roger stone is a big deal for roger stone. what drives him, let's not forget, he's always been an outlier in history. he's always been a footnote. he likes being front and center. he wants to be part of the story when it's told in the history books. he loves the attention. this is the first time he'll actually really be relative. he may go to jail and be relevant and he'll have that moment. when you look who the president chose to put himself around, whether it be manafort or roger stone, these are all people who have had questionable reputations, i'll be kind, and he likes people who play dirty. they also know a lot. >> stone too is somebody with

trump this relationship, he's been on the inside with him, but he's been there since way back. >> for decades. >> manafort was somebody who came into trump's campaign in 2016, but stone's been there from the start. >> he's been there are there's for decades, but manafort and stone have a relationship that goes back to the '70s. manafort lived in trump tower. i mean, there are these things, their histories kind of fall around each other. so it just makes sense that of course manafort would be welcome into that inner circle with donald trump with roger stone's okay because, like you said, he's been with him for decades. >> cynthia, the partial gag order, just take us through legally exactly what would separate a partial gag order from a full gag order and how unusual is it for this to be imposed by a judge? >> well, jeremy's right.

the gag order on the lawyers is really just their legal obligation, so i don't see that as a big deal. in looking at the gag order for roger stone, clearly judge jackson is not setting this up as a trap. but it may turn out to be a trap for him. you are going to behave in a way that is acceptable, and i think we all guess that he's going to violate the order. and then she's going to slap a larger order on him. to me this is just a stair-stepping way to back into a full gag order. that's what i predict will happen. there will be a hearing at some point once he goes on some television show and, again, repeats that it's all a conspiracy and he was treated worse than osama bin laden and el chapo, which is apparently what he's been doing. he'll have these little rallies out front. it's only a matter of time until there's a full gag order. >> former acting fbi director

appears to have gotten under the president's skin. andrew mccabe confirmed after james comey's firing, deputy attorney general rod rosenstein raised the possibility of invoking the 25th amendment according to a newly released transcript. quote, rod raise ed the issue and discussed it with me in the context of thinking about how many other cabinet officials might support such an effort. attacking mccabe in a tweet last night, president trump quoted harvard law professor alan dershowitz saying trying to use the 25th amendment to circumvent the election is a dispickble act of unconstitutional power grabbing which happens in third world countries. this is an attack on our system and our constitution. jeremy, you have another statement coming out today from mccabe, sort of seeming to try to downplay the significance of discussions that did take place, but it clearly was raised in some context at some point.

trying to think of other examples. the only one i can think of is in ronald reagan's presidency, the chief of staff got a memo basically saying the president was very distracted, they weren't sure he was mentally up to it. baker observed him for a day on the job without telling him and concluded nothing to this, we're not going to go forward with this. to have the subject raised with the president, there's been reporting about this before, about this extraordinary thing. >> it shows you the national security professionals were concerned the president was compromised, that the russian federation had such significant leverage over the american president that in some way he did not have the capacity to discharge his oath of office. now, the 25th amendment is an extraordinarily high bar that basically says the president has to be incapacitated and requires the majority of the cabinet and a number of procedural aspects we've never seen in our history. i don't think it was a realistic possibility to attempt to do

that, but it does show you how concerned the fbi, the justice department, and very senior officials were about why the president was seemingly acting at the behest of vladimir putin, trying to obliterate the investigation into that conduct >> jeremy bash, cynthia oxney, thank you for being with us. a former governor, a republican, is considering a primary challenge against president trump. i'm going to head to the big board to look at how past primary challenges against sitting presidents have fared and what it means for what trump may be up against in 2020. you're watching "hardball." chin. and more people than ever struggle with debt. intuit is here to change this story... with giant solutions like turbotax, quickbooks and mint that give everyone the power to prosper.

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. i'm here actually because i think our country is in grave peril, and i cannot sit any longer quietly on the sidelines. i have established an exploratory committee to run as a republican in the 2020 election. >> there we go. we've been talking about all those democrats, one after another getting in the race for president. and now today, a republican, someone who was a republican for a long time, left the party, just came back to it. you heard him there, former massachusetts governor william weld saying today in

new hampshire that he may run against donald trump for the republican nomination next year a primary challenge on the republican side potentially. weld forming an exploratory committee, the first step toward a candidacy. he hasn't been around for a while. he was the 2016 libertarian party candidate for vice president. he ran with gary johnson, remember him? before that it had been a long time for him. he was the governor of massachusetts in the 1990s. lost a senate race to john kerry in 1996 and ran for governor of new york in 2006 and that when nowhere. as a republican helping me go against trump. how do these usually go? it's every day a president gets a primary challenge. in fact, the last one who had a primary challenger who got traction, you got to go back to 1992, george h.w. bush was

challenged by pat buchanan. the bush folks felt buchanan was one of the reasons that bush didn't end up winning re-election. others say buchanan was a symptom of the problem bush had. jimmy carter and ted kennedy was a famous one. ford was the unelected president. nixon got from the left pete mcclass can i. from the right he got john ash brook. mccarthy embarrassed johnson. johnson dropped out of the race after that. here's the thing to keep in mind. all these presidents, what was their approval rating with their own party? the folks voting in these primaries when these challenges came into being? today trump is 89% with

republicans. you think back, jimmy carter, that was a serious primary challenge. carter at 40% with his own party. ford was at 60% inside the republican party. trump's sitting 89% approval rating. that's what bill weld is up against. still ahead, chris matthews talks with spike lee about hisses oscar nominated film "blackkklansman," and issues of race and politics in america. you're watching "hardball." meria you're watching "hardball. saved an average of $412," you probably won't believe me. but you can believe this, real esurance employee nancy abraham. look her up online. esurance, it's surprisingly painless.

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. welcome back to "hardball". the legendary movie director spike lee has been at the forefront of our culture discussions for decades. with movies like do the right think, jungle fever and malcolm x, his latest the "blackkklansman," the true story how an forgive them police detective in colorado went under cover in the 1970s and became a

member of the ku klux klan. movie's been nominated for six oscars, including best director and best motion picture. this is the first time spike lee has received nominations in those categories. here's actress kim basinger protesting the academy overlooking lee's film back then, do the right thing. >> we have five great films here, and they're great for one reason, because they tell the truth. but there is one film missing from this list that deserves to be on it because ironically, it might tell the biggest truth of all, and that's "do the right thing." [ applause ] yes. >> nearly three decades after that moment, lee could become the first african-american to win an oscar for best director. the cultural icon spike lee talks to chris matthews after this break. stay with us. reak stay with us s in late,

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chinese and anyone else that doesn't have pure white ariane blood. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was from a clip from director spike lee's new movie, "blackkklansman." it's the true story how ron stall worth was able to infiltrate the kkk back in the '70s. joining me is spike lee. spikers thanks for coming on to want. it's an honor to have. >> you thank you. >> tell me what it means artistically to be nominated for best director. >> well, this is the first time in many years in this industry, i've been nominated for best director and best picture. a lot of other of my fellow filmmakers, barry brown, newcomer adam driver, hi guy got nominated, so it's a really, really good feeling. the film had an impact around the world. and we're going to l.a. to have fun. >> speaking of which, the movie has a comic aspect.

no doubt most people black or white watching that conversation on the telephone and him hood winking the klan leader david duke because of the manner of hs a lot about the assumptions made by the klan leader and about our culture and the way you put this movie, comedy mixed with the tragedy of people wearing hoods and burning crosses and killing people. >> called me up and said, i want you to look at something. what is it? he said, six words i'm going to give you. black man infiltrates ku klux klan. very intriguing. absurd. that's where organically the humor comes from, just in the premise. >> he gets in the klan. it seems to make these guys like cartoon characters, they're so stupid -- >> well. >> i remember even clarence thomas, you may agree or disagree with him politically. he said that's not free speech,

that's violence, the klan. and using of the burning cross. >> well, this is a true story and ron stallworth did speak to david duke on the fume and the grand wizard thought that ron stallworth was of aryan race. so make up your own mind how smart they are. they aren't einstein. >> left me ask you about the news now. the whole history of minstrels. >> came out in 2000, that film came out. >> you're a prophet. you're way ahead of your time. but the business of blackface. i grew up a white kid, obviously, my dad had us watch -- i go what's this all about. i noticed the sequel in the late '40s, they didn't use blackface. so something was changing in the industry. this was foreboden by just a couple of years. not supposed to do it. >> that's true. when you look at it, it never

went away. it never went away. so its reared its ugly head again and it's with these fashion brands and politicians who are -- i think every politician in america had their assistants go find their yearbooks, second grade, high school, college, law school after this thing broke out. but it's amazing to see what people have in the past. you go to my yearbook, you'll see a big, big afro. that's all i got on me. that's all you got. >> spike, good luck. >> thank you very much. >> i'm sorry, like everybody is about this blackface thing. i don't know what it is. we've had our own problems in philly, but it wasn't this, it was different stuff. this is a -- there is some weird thing about white people thinking if they put the blackface on they can do stuff they normally wouldn't do and somehow that's funny. i don't know. what is the bottom line. why did they do blackface? >> well, number one, they never

thought of african-americans or before that slaves as human beings. we're considered 3/5 of a human being. it's in the constitution. so we're dealing with slavery. and the reason why you see 1619 on my hat and on my hoodie, 400 years ago, chris, the first slaves were brought to jamestown, virginia. 400 years. i think it's something that we need to talk about. 1619 to 2019. >> thank you, spike lee. good luck with the movie. good luck with the oscars. >> and there's more ahead. when we come back, the huge field of democrats running for president in 2020 and what lessons the party may have learned from reasons when it comes to debates. you're watching "hardball." as someone in witness protection,

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welcome back. the democratic presidential field is already big, nine candidates so far, and it's only getting bigger. is bernie sanders going to go through with a second campaign? how about joe biden? those are just the big names we're waiting on. terry mcauliffe, jay instantly, bill de blasio maybe even. and even more than that, there is still a practically endless list of potential candidates who are still eyeing their options. when all is said and done, it is not out of the question that the 2020 democratic field will match in size what we saw from republicans back in 2016.

16 candidates. that was more candidates, of course, than republicans knew what to to with, especially when it came to debates. logistically speaking there was just no way to get 6 candidates on the same stage at the same time and have any kind of a meaningful dialogue between all of them. and so republicans in 2015 came up with a solution. they took all of the polls and they figured out the top ten candidates. all of those ten candidates went into one debate together, the main debate, the one in prime time, the one with the largest audience. they even stood them on stage according to their position in the polls. remember, donald trump used to brag about being in the middle. and as for the rest of the candidates, well, they got relegated to a smaller debate. it took place a few hours before the first one. people started calling it the kids' table debate. the candidates stuck at the kids' table hated it. they railed against the criteria that was being used and the whole setup was generally

considered a bust. so the question has been, what will democrats do if they have an equally enormous field in 2020 and now we knew. the first debate will be held this june and eligibility will have something to do with polling. anyone getting 1% in at least three polls between now and the debate will get in. and already i count 11 candidates or potential candidates who meet that criteria. or if the candidates don't have those poll numbers, they can also prove they have grassroots support by getting 65,000 donors. but the real change is this, there will be no kids' table debate. the dnc says if there is a surplus of candidates, the first debate will be a two-night affair. airing at the same time on the same network one after another. the dnc points out it's never been done this way. it raises an obvious question, do voters have the appetite for

that? there are reasons to doubt it, but i'll bet they do. 116 people just voted in a midterm election, after all. shameless plug here, if you're one of those ones who wants to see the debate, the first one is going to be on nbc and msnbc, both nights of it. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> we're going to be signing today and registering, national emergency. and it's a great thing to do. >> president undercuts his own emergency. >> i didn't need to do this, but i'd rather do it much faster. >> as the backlash grows -- >> the only national emergency is that our president is an idiot. >> and the lawsuits begin. >> i shouldn't be sued. >> tonight as the president leaves for golf, california takes him to court. >> fortunately donald trump is not the last word. >> govern gavin newsom and maxine waters will join me live.