nd. just one more way we go beyond at&t. right now get fast, reliable internet and add wifi pro for a low price. comcast business. beyond fast. that's it for me for this hour. i'm see you at noon eastern. stay where you are. it's time for "up" with david gura. >> well, this is "up," overnight news, the new attorney general does not expect to get robert mueller's report in the coming days. as house democrats tell bill barr americans need to see that document when it's done. >> there has to be a report from barr, the attorney general, to the congress. i very much expect that the bar report to congress will be made public. >> this morning, we are waiting for a new sentencing recommendations for paul manafort, we could get those at

any minute and new reporting on an effort to make sure that paul manafort will not be completely absolved by a presidential pardon. >> they are moving forward with taking a look at what state crimes may have been slighted. >> alexander acosta under fire for a 2008 agreement he broke with jeffrey epstein, president trump addressing the growing concern that yet another member of, of yet another member of his cabinet. >> i don't know too much about it. i know he's done a great job as a labor secretary. and that seems a long time ago. >> saturday, february 23. senator bernie sanders is running for president against. and bill maher is day dreaming about a bernie aoc ticket. >> 77-year-old jew and a 29-year-old former bartender. that's a dream ticket. in l.a., that's a third marriage. >> up with me this morning, christina, an associate

professor at political science at ford university. and former prosecutor and nbc legal analyst. and senior politics editor here at msnbc. well, despite reports to the contrary, the special counsel is not finished with his investigation or report. a senior justice department official telling nbc news we should not expect robert mueller's report to be handed over to the attorney general this week. so the waiting continues, as we learn, michael cohen, president trump's former attorney, has been talking to federal prosecutors in new york, about the trump organization, as he prepares to testify before congress next week. and there is also new reporting about paul manafort the manhattan district attorney's office is preparing a case against him that centers on state tax and bank fraud related charges. the president, with attacks on robert mueller's investigation continues, something former fbi deputy director andrew mccabe

addressed this week. >> there is clear indication of his intent, his desire to make this investigation stop and go away. were he a regular citizen, conducted the same sort of activity, it is hard to imagine that you wouldn't be in a position to be able to go forward with an indictment or charge. >> were he a regular citizen, of course, the president of the united states, is not just a regular citizen, and the decision about what of robert mueller's findings will see the light of day falls squarely on bill barr's shoulders. >> at the end of the day, what will be releasable, i am going to make as much information available as i can, consistent with the rules and regulations. >> a report clearly on the president's mind and his advisers, as president trump readies for a second summit overseas, with kim jong-un, the leader of north korea. >> should the mueller report be released while you're abroad next week? >> that will be totally up to the new attorney general. that will be totally up to him. >> let's see there is a report to even discuss.

>> kellyanne conway, let's see if there is a report to even discuss. >> let's turn to you first. i joked about this on twitter yesterday. so much ink spilled and so many hours of radio and tv about people speaking about the report coming out this week and we get the message from a senior justice department source yesterday saying hold off, it is not happening any time soon. your reaction to that, the enthusiasm, the speculation surrounding the release of the report. >> so david, what it proves is we just don't know and i think back to when bob mueller dropped that indictment, of the 12 russian military operatives, and there was not a hint of reporting that that was about to drop. so i think here we are again, we're all trying to predict, based on what we know, and the fact is we just don't know. what i do think is important to consider is this doesn't mean it's the mueller end game. because there is nothing inconsistent, with a report and indictments, there's nothing inconsistent with this being an interim report, perhaps only detailing what he's found with respect to obstruction of justice. there's a certain parallel, if

this is an interim report, because all of these satellite indictments, we've seen, are really obstruction of justice satellite indictments and we're still waiting for the core conspiracy. so one final thing is, you know, when you look at the mandate, when mueller was appointed, it was to investigate contacts between the trump campaign and the russians and any matters directly arising from that investigation. there is no mandate that also says, and you personally, and your team, will prosecute every case that you find enough evidence to bring. we've already seen cases, we've seen cases farmed out to the southern district, to the eastern district of new york, to the u.s. attorney's office in the district of columbia where my old colleagues are handling the butina cases and one of the russia cases. i can see mueller dropping the report and perhaps dropping indictments that continue to be farmed out, as a way of inoculating against what we were all concerned about, perhaps a premature shutting down of the investigation, and the bottom

line is, it is anybody's guess. >> we will get into that how crowded the lower earth orbit seems to be with all of the investigations in just a moment. beth, let me ask you, there was speculation about the release of the report, and with that, speculation of anything that we would get, garrett graph had an amazing piece seven scenarios on what the report might look like and on one end it might be noth and robert mueller might go to bill barr and say i've done my due diligence and there is nothing to do it and on the other hand it will be lurid and rich like kenneth starr more than a decade ago. >> it is speculation. everything we know at this point about bob mueller is that he does what he wants to do, he doesn't leak, and things happen, things land, and you deal with what is presented to you on the table. and i think that's probably a good idea for everybody at this point to sort of hold off and just find out what he's got in that report. i can't help but think though, that perhaps that the work is done, that the report is complete, he just hasn't, the decision to release it is being

made to not coincide with president trump's trip to vietnam, and he's going to be, you know, discussing nuclear disarmament with the dictator of north korea, you know, why land this report in the middle of that. on top of, that michael cohen, president trump's long-time fixer is, going to be testifying on the hill, this week. and perhaps there was an element of that in the mueller team's consideration about when to put this out. so let's go one thing at a time. >> one step at a time. let's shift our attention if we could to capitol hill. felipe, i will start with you, and congress interested in the report, and when it will be released, democrats from six committees writing a letter to bill barr saying in the strongest possible terms our expectation that the department of justice will release to the public the report special counsel mueller submits to you without delay and to the maximum extent permitted by law. does that pressure matter? we've talked a lot on this show, about the pressure that law enforcement is under, how inured they are and to tune out pressure from outside forces and

do their jobs. is it going to have an effect? does that pressure matter? >> in a normal righteous world, it should, and in that same righteous world, that letter wouldn't be necessary. i think there is one point that is important, that kelly ann, this might come as a shock, was wrong possibly even lying will, will be a report. the difference between this and say what comey did in july, 2016, where he just saw nothing but still said something, the special counsel staff requires a report being written and provided to the attorney general. >> he's going to see it. >> so there is a report. period. the republicans will say, well, if there was no collusion, blah-blah-blah, there shouldn't be a report. i don't know, you know, it seems to me that bill barr doesn't know when this thing is coming out either, and it is not just the five of us and the millions out there who don't know either. i think they will make a game time call. they will do whatever they do is best for trump. if this report is exonerating, i have a feeling we will see it pretty damn fast, or worse,

the -- >> the alternative report. >> which they could release now because they've had that for six months. >> or worse, they will release what is convenient an helpful to trump. but i think the real issue, we were talking about this before, bob mueller worked for the nfl, and he did a comprehensive report in '95. it was 96 pages long. if he is writing 96 pages about how the nfl's packaging and office functions work, he knows he has a larger responsibility here, and not just that, he knows that if he doesn't provide something, that it is not like everyone is just going to go home and say okay, he knows that people are going to take advantage of it. so the real question is, if the congress people who don't, if their letter isn't taken up, are they going to ask him to come testify and would he do that? if you remember, when comey was fired, he testified a week later and that testimony was probably the most damaging, it was at that moment, that jim comey said that the fbi was investigating donald trump. and we might be in the same situation, where him coming to congress is the answer.

>> the focus shifts to michael cohen, big piece in the "new york times" today, about how interested federal prosecutors in new york are to hearing his story. he has a few more months before he has to report to prison. as beth say, he is going to be on capitol hill this week answering questions, in closed sessions before the intelligence committees but open session before the oversight committee on the house side as well. what are we going to learn from him as he goes up there this week? what are we going to be listening for when michael cohen testifies in open session. >> i will be listening for consistency, because clearly and manafort didn't get the menu that you don't lie to the feds and i think manafort will be waiting to see if he is behaving the way he behaved closed doors when he is speaking to government officials. obviously the president will be paying attention as well. this is someone who has had a two decades long relationship with the president. they were very close. the president has said that. if you look at the pictures from years past, they're together. and so now, we see someone who is possibly flipping, i mean we

know the president uses mob language to talk about his one-time lawyer, who i don't believe is barred, by the way, which is always so interesting. only the best people. but i think that michael cohen clearly has some information, and if he were smart, we know that he should, his ship has sailed, the president moved on without him and bob mueller was initially brought in to investigate collusion and russia and he is realizing he is dealing with a serial criminal in donald trump, doing things below the law for over decades and surrounding himself with people who have done that as well. >> and now we're back to the satellite and the orbit. let me get your perspective on that as the federal prosecutor. what you are listening for? how difficult is the testimony is bob mueller going to hear when he is listening to what michael cohen has to say? >> on the one hand, i don't think anybody is going to be let down by whatever bob mueller

chooses to do, whether it's a report, whether it's a combination of reports, report and indictments. i do think we might be let down by some of the cohen testimony. you know, when i saw the reporting that, you know, there's this revelation that cohen is going to talk about insurance fraud, or insurance claim, irregularities, in the trump organization, i mean doesn't that pale in comparison to potentially stealing election by paying off porn stars and playmates? potentially stealing an election by colluding with a foreign adversary? lying to the american people. stead fastly. about wanting to build a trump tower moscow. i mean these are huge ticket items. and we're going to hear about things like potential insurance fraud. you know, we have to wait and see, and i think we're all hopeful that we're going to get more truthful, accurate information from cohen, because look, cooperating witnesses are liars. that's what they are. we clean them up as prosecutors and we make them understand, you have more to lose by lying, than you have to gain, we've seen

that in mast nnafort now, and l hope we get the truth and hope it is enlightening. >> coming up, bernie sanders supporters pony up. planning to take down president trump's emergency declaration. >> and manafort and the lengths u.s. prosecutors are going to ensure he ends up behind bars. e. in true british style,

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it is come and gone, and by then the special counsel was supposed to issue a new sentencing memo about paul manafort. that is an indication that the document includes sensitive information that prosecutors are seeking a judge's approval to redact or black out that material. president trump has not ruled out a pardon for his former campaign chairman, who faces a significant amount of time in prison. >> no, i have not offered any pardons. i'm not taking anything off the table. >> it what is important, a presidential pardon is not a get out of jail card or get out of every jail card. it would not work for state charges. and nbc news has confirmed new york state prosecutors are assembling a case against paul manafort connected to tax and bank fraud-related charges. if state charges were brought, trump would not be able to intercede in that case. glenn, let me start with you, help us understand a little bit better here.

paul manafort apparently of interest here to the manhattan district attorney in new york city, who has been and has not been investigating the trump organization for many years now. what do you make of this development, first, reported by bloomberg news, picked up on by "the new york times." >> i think there are a any number of state crimes that paul manafort undoubtedly is on the hook for and there is a little bit of a double jeopardy concern because new york's laws are very pro-defendant, when that defendant has been prosecuted by the feds, it can be difficult -- >> spell that out. i saw that in the piece. cy vance can't take in that mueller document and copy it and paste it in his own. it has to be markedly different. how different does it have to be? >> he can't charge manafort in new york state court with the identical crimes that manafort was convicted of or pled guilty to. but remember, manafort also took responsibility for ten crimes. those are the ten crimes that the virginia jury hung on. they couldn't reach a unanimous verdict. he didn't plead guilty to those ten crimes. if those are also new york

state-related crimes, those ten crimes could form the basis of a state prosecution, but even beyond that, you know, one thing about tax cheats, when you cheat on your federal taxes, chances are really good you cheated on your state taxes. i have yet to see a federal tax evader file his or her state taxes. so he is going to be on the hook for any number o crimes. and i would set aside the double jeopardy issue because i think at the end of the day, it is interesting academically, but it is a nonissue, and i think this is a way, no again inoculate against a pardon having complete effect. you just said, there is a get out of jail card free, it is called a cardin but d -- card, get out of every jail free. and i just stole your line. >> thank you. >> and as you see this happening here in new york, circling the president of the united states, i brought it up earlier this morning, talking about the investigation, the tree, the trunk of which is bob mueller's investigation but you look at the branches and you look at

this one and see it starting to bear fruit. what does it tell you about the play book going forward with prosecutors outside of bob mueller's world. >> let's not forget that when new york state's new attorney general came in, she said she would take a look at trump's organization as well. so it is, he faces the same situation. i mean we're, getting way ahead of ourselves perhaps, that trump, he jumped out of office for some reason, related to the mueller investigation or some such thing, he could be potentially be part, but if there are state charges coming against him from new york, that is not a get out of jail free card. so there is that looming issue for president trump as well. with the state of new york looking at him. there is also the congressional investigations that have been, you know, reanimated now with the democratic control of the house. so there's all of this, it is, you know, eventually going to bear fruit in some level, even if the mueller report doesn't give democrats what they're looking for in terms of hard cold evidence that president trump was literally talking to vladimir putin about wikileaks. i mean short of that, there are

plenty of other ways that this investigation could go that could implicate him and all the other satellites in the orbit. >> what are you thinking as you look at paul manafort today and looking for the sentencing report and the extraordinary information that we have learned about what he lied about, after he had this agreement with the prosecutors, and your sense of what he was thinking at this point, we were talking about all of the time that he faces, in prison, his path forward, what calculus he had, if any, why he would do this to himself. >> my nana had a very specific term of art for it. houtzpah. and i think if you look at both him and roger stone, while they couldn't look any more different, and there is a difference in terms of flam boy y ance but they are both looking as if they're certain they are getting pardoned. once you lie to the prosecutor once, which to me is the dumbest thing in the world, make the deal and abide by it. but these guys have, it and aside from stupidity, and the

real reason you would do that is because you don't care, and while i'm not a lawyer and my entire basis is lawyer and order svu, and the only thing consistent about donald trump is he does not in any way abide by the law. and i'm not sure if he sits around and says oh, damn i can't pardon state crimes, he's probably sitting there saying why not, he has rudy saying you're on to something. i think he can. it is the same evidence. so i don't really know. but when i watch manafort, manafort is the definition of the swamp that donald trump said he would drain. and i'm not exactly sure how the guy went from ma to being his campaign chairman. >> he brings up roger stone. we haven't talked about him yet. but this is of course another big story this week. which the extraordinary exchange that you saw in transcript form between him and the judge, about the photograph that he says he didn't post or didn't recognize it. there was iconographiy in there, next to judge jackson's face.

same thing? is it pure and simple? willful ignorance about the path he faces, about the consequences of what he has done? what do you make of it? >> i think the american people are looking at these men, and seeing, this is how they have been behaving for decades. this is a pattern and these are the people that donald trump has chosen to surround himself with for decades as well. they have been living above the law. and they're showing the american public, the law has never applied to us. therefore, they're a little confused that all of a sudden now, they're interacting, i might disagree you about flam boyance, because an 8,000 dollars ostrich suit might put manafort in the flam buoyant inventory. but i think it is deeper than that. when we look at the trump orbit, and the lying, cheating, stealing, for decades and there have never been any consequences and slowly but surely, we're

seeing one by one, sort of have to, you know, sort of face some sort of questions about their behavior and their illegal activity, and i think roger stone is just, i mean why would, you know, why would he think that this is going to be the time that he gets caught? why would donald trump think this is the time he is going to get caught? >> just worth noting the shear cowardice of roger stone, if you look at the tweet and saying this, the fix is in, the judge, he didn't have the guts to say that right to her face. >> well, i mean brought lobut l president, he likes to talk trash in front of everyone else but the minute i is in -- he is in front of someone -- >> the extraordinary moment on kpl capitol hill when michael cohen goes up there, the republicans will try to discredit him, and look at his history of bad behavior and lying and why was he working for president donald

trump for all those years if president trump does seek the best people. >> it is a job requirement. >> it is going to be the republicans making, having to be forced to make that pint. >> it is a needle to thread. this man has no credibility, no qualifications, he is a liar, a cheater, and yet, he has been one of the president's closest confidante force over two decades. >> exactly. >> how does that square, right? >> we will come back to it in a moment. another member of president trump's cabinet under fire today. a federal judge rules labor secretary alexandria acosta broke the law in a finsituation that calls for his resignation. s that calls for his resignation hey buddy! what do you wanna i be when you grow up?" i would like to be a turbotax live cpa. don't you want to be something else? yeah robochild, you could be anything!

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welcome back to "up" i'm david gura. calls this morning for another member of president trump's cabinet to resign. alexander acosta, now the secretary of labor, at issue is a nonprosecution deal forever y forever ry epsteen charged with sexual abuse. and prosecutors broke the law by concealing a plea agreement from the victims, and the white house, the president was pressed

on that matter yesterday. >> mr. president, do you have any concerns about the labor secretary tampering with the jeffery epstein case? >> that seems like a long time ago but he seems like a fantastic labor secretary. >> i want to play another part of the tape. this is secretary acosta himself. this is what he has been asked about time and time again and here is what he had to say in response to the questions about his involvement in the case. >> this matter was originally a state case. it was presented by the state attorney to the grand jury in palm beach county. the grand jury in palm beach county recommended a single count of solicitation, not involving minors, i believe, and that would have resulted in zero jail time, zero registration as a sexual offender. >> glenn, one reads the three-part series in the miami herald about all of this.

with a growing sense of nausea. it is a disgusting reprehensible thing that happened in florida. walk us through what happened this week, all of this centered on the federal crime victims rights act. how does it play in this? and what does it mean for jeffrey epstein, and the secretary of labor who oversaw this. >> back in 2004, the crime victims rights act, the cvra as we called it, was enacted in the law and gave victims unprecedented rights in the criminal justice system, which we all think, i'm not going to lie, would he were a little bit fearful of it at first because it used to be there was the prosecutor and the defense attorney and those were the two people who had rights so to speak in the criminal litigation and now 2004, victims had rights and dramatic rights. for example, this is how the acosta epstein thing comes into play. as part of the victim's bill of rights in the cvra, a victim can actually object to a plea offer that the prosecutor extends to the defense attorney.

and the victim can go into court and say judge, i don't like this. i don't feel like my rights are being protected and vindicated. >> that's what is supposed to happen. >> that's what is supposed to happen and the judge accepts that plea offer over the victim's objection, the victim can appeal that decision. so we had to implement this in 2004. we had to train our prosecutors to make sure you protect every single right the cvra grants to victims. now, we have acosta, apparently in what looks like these ugly back room deals, between acosta as the u.s. attorney, in florida, at the time, and epstein's lawyers, to not only cover up the horrific crimes that epstein had commitmented, i mean sex trafficking, underaged girls, i mean these are some of the most vulnerable victims in our country. but they lied to, acosta lied to the victims about it. don't worry, there will be a federal prosecution. we are going to vindicate your rights. and then he never did. so here, i think is the

important end game to what is going on right now. the crime victims rights act is not a criminal statute. so acosta can't be prosecuted for violating it. he can be disbarred. he should certainly be fired. as a secretary of labor. or he should resign. opr, the department of justice office of professional responsibility, has opened an investigation. and it's a crackout fit, i can tell you, into what acosta did back then, but here is one thing i have been thinking about, how can acosta be held accountable in the most dramatic way when you know what, if he conspired with epstein's lawyers, to basically pull the wool over the victim's eyes, the crime victims rights act might not be a criminal statute but conspireing to violate it is a criminal offense. and i can only hope that this thing is fully investigated, and if a criminal jurisdiction is in the mix somehow, i hope acosta is held accountable, because this is reprehensible. >> david, i think we also just

have to remember, none of these things are isolated instances. so the acosta/epstein situation, bob kraft and if it is indeed sex trafficking and not just sex, and 100 men in florida, r. kelly, we are seeing this collide in a way in our nation where these are things that women have been talking about for decades and we're seeing some of the men in the highest offices of power abusing that, in a way, and we know that the president somehow is constantly attached to these types of men. and this is also part of the problem. >> and this topic, very quickly, i want to get to this. let's play a bit of a clip there from president trump at the oval office yesterday. he was asked about bob cast, his long-time friend in the oval office yesterday. let's take a listen to what the president had to say. >> what about the charges of bob kraft? he is a friend of your. >>s -- he is a friend of yours. >> i'm surprised to see it.

he proclaimed his innocence totally. >> this is a recurring theme when you listen to the president. >> all he does is watch tv all day so when he says he doesn't know, he is talking about sex traffic, with duct tape over their mouths and that's were we need a $25 billion border will, is a total disconnect between tolerating someone in your cabinet who played a role in this, and saying that it is the biggest national security threat. it is an incredibly serious issue. he should not be a cabinet member. he should be a lot worse. it is another slow motion car wreck. and this will be zinke, tom price, where this goes on for five or six months he should be gone before the show is over. >> president trump is will be remarkable who he will give the benefit of the doubt to and who he won't. he said something recently about vladimir putin, he said he didn't do that. >> when are the pats supposed to go to the white house?

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i'm going to run for president, that's correct. >> what's going to be different this time? >> we're going to win. >> this is "up," i'm david gura and what is bernie sanders telling john dickerson he plans to run for president again. the senator from vermont joins nine democrats vying for the seat to unseat president trump in 2020. senator sanders says he wants to transform the democratic party and wants to make it even more progressive. in the first 24 hours after he launched his campaign, bernie sanders raised a record breaking $5.9 million from 223,000 donors and senator kamala harris raised a quarter of that in the first day of fundraising and senator klobuchar brought in a million and senator elizabeth warren $300,000. i'm struck how bernie sanders talks about his campaign and how he sees it as another movement in american history. >> if you learn from the civil rights movement, the trade union movement frrkts women's

movement, from the gay movement, that real change never occurs in this country unless millions of people are standing up and fighting back. >> i want to start with you. you've worked on campaigns. you've been party to campaigns. to talk about it in that way, to say a campaign for president is analogous to the civil rights movement or trade union movement, what do you make of it as to how he sees himself? >> it is hubris. it is what he and his supporters think. to say he started he announced running for president, he never stopped running for president, and it has a lot to do with his numbers. $6 million is a ton. not taking away anything from that. but he has had a two-year head start. he was very smart about maintaining his support, his core support, whatever you want to call them, from the moment the election ended, the general election, to now, he has worked his lists, he has -- >> he has been a progressive concigliaro of sorts.

>> while 6 million is eye popping, i believe it is only 5% of his full list. so i'm not exactly sure that the whole bernie movement is in the same place this time. second, is that he's going wire to wire with other people, while their numbers, whether it is harris or klobuchar, their numbers are lower but they all have plenty of money. they are going wire to wire. he is not forcing anyone out of the race with money. and he had a ton of mountain in 2016 and he lost. >> and he had a built-in infrastructure, too. so he has run for the presidency before. those other flee senators ha, t senators have not. i'm not trying to roll my eyes on the air. >> i'm watching closely. >> i'm very frustrating, you know, i think it is the audacity, it is a democracy, anyone can run but i don't think that bernie sanders is actually in touch with what is happening, and a lot of his statements about gender and race are off the mark. and his idea of class and how everything in this country is about class. in 2019, you cannot

realistically think that you should run for president, if you don't fundamentally understand the ways in which race, ethnicity, gender, are influencing how people are feeling and treated in this nation. >> chris asked him about the scandal involving sexual harassment on the campaign and he pointed to his four campaign co-chairman as evidence of the fact that his eyes have been opened, there is a lot of diversity in the campaign that perhaps wasn't there the last time, and how seriously is he taking that criticism that christina just brought up? >> unclear. i know from talking to people on his team, that they are very aware of trying to make some changes, and that they needed to bring more women and people of color on to the campaign. but fundamentally, it is not just people around him on the campaign, it is the supporters. they tend to be pretty white, pretty male, and we talked about -- >> pretty aggressive. >> the bernie bros, who attack some of us on tv, if they don't like what we say. i can't wait.

>> what will it be. >> but look, i am going to make a slightly different argument here, i am going to say that bernie brings a ton of strength to this race, which means basically because of fundraising that will keep him in the top tear of this campaign and probably throughout the entire year. so he will, he will force the conversation, in his direction, and i mean a lot of these candidates have already adopted his positions on issues, that he was espousing in 2016. >> however -- >> that's a problem for him. >> because in, they are not adapting to a multi-candidate race. in 2016, against hillary, it was if you don't like her, you come here. if you don't like him, you go to her. now the very success they have had, bringing people to this debate, you have options. you can be a purely liberal, socialist progressive voter and say elizabeth warren is looking pretty good because bernie had his shot. let's be clear, bernie went dollar for dollar with hillary and he didn't lose by 40,000 vote, he lost by 4 million votes

and there is something he has not corrected in the two years since, he has not appealed to people he lost in two years. >> that's the problem with the democrats, we're constantly running our old elections. in 2008, hillary clinton is running in the '90s. and i do think that bernie sanders actually does have a, like he might lead part of the conversation, but that is our job to make sure he doesn't dominate the conversation. because the fact that he announces on a day that elizabeth warren is putting forward a major policy platform about child welfare, is to me -- >> counter programming stacy abrams. >> don't get me started on that. >> having watched him in the campaign -- >> he taps into incredible energy, to a discontent and some ways, not to belittle him, but the same way donald trump did. there was an incredible desire for change in 2016 that he represents. there is no doubt of that. that is behind the money, that is behind the wanting him to win, that is behind the energy,

everything. that doesn't mean it's enough. it does not mean that he hasn't squandered. it doesn't mean that he is not being arrogant. in assuming that that same percentage. now if he thinks he is going to win with 20% because it is more than a anybody else, and that's not growing the pie. and i don't know if that helps you. >> the hashtag is #up if you want to include all of us in the criticism. >> please don't say that. >> and he thinks bernie -- >> to break. up next, the latest on how the democrats plan to stop president trump's emergency declaration and how they have republican support to advance their challenge through congress and how much it will matter. >> we will be fighting him on this usurping of power, of violating the constitution of the united states, in the congress, in the courts and with the american people. so this is a path i would not recommend he go down. would not

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president trump reacting to a resolution to repeal his call for a national emergency to build a wall along the

u.s.-mexico border yesterday. the speaker of the house who has called that wall immoral was in laredo, texas and has scheduled a vote on that bill tuesday. there are now 222 co-sponsors. that's enough votes to pass the house. the legislation needs only 51 votes to pass in the senate. if all 47 democrats support the repeal, only four republicans would have to cross party lines for it to go to the president's desk, and several republican senators including marco rubio, ron johnson, susan collins and thom tillis oppose the president's decision to use that emergency declaration. this is building up to what would be a hugely consequenceal moment, testing the presidential powers. >> will you definitively veto that resolution that's introduced today that would

block your national emergency if it passes? >> on the wall, 100%. >> what's the calculus that democratic leaders are making at this point, betting it goes through the house, assuming it goes through the house and being vetoed by the president, where does that get this declaration? >> at this point to me the house resolution is significant in that it's making a statement but it's a statement. the real way that this is going to be tested is through the courts and we already know 16 states have filed a lawsuit against it. it's going to be challenged legally in all sorts of other places. that's ultimately what's going to decide the future of this wall. but still, president trump is going to walk away saying he won. this is what he always does. i declare the national emergency, i stood up for what was right. it doesn't mean matter if the wall gets built. he can say he went down fighting, fought until the end, it's still in the courts. he's never going to have to say i lost that one, and that was the point.

>> you've got -- what's great about this resolution is that it's basically mcconnell-proof. he can't stop it from being passed on. he can't stop it from going to the floor and it can't be filibuster filibustered. the opposite of 2018, republicans have i think 22 of the 33 or 34 seats up in the senate and same way that mcconnell wants jammed democrats with a great new deal vote, this is going to be problematic to make his caucus vote because there's a lot more than four people that are against this in their hearts and their heads and they may have to defend it at times that they don't want to. >> to the courts, there are 16 states that filed suits. xavier becerra leading that charge and you have all these groups doing the same thing. what are these next few weeks, months, i don't know, years going to look like if this is being fought in the courts? do you see that 16-party suit as the van guard of all of this?

what's it going to look like in courts across the country? >> i can't wait for this issue to get to the courts because we all understand that a president's right to declare a national emergency, he gets extremely broad deference, right? but there are a couple of mainstays of the law once a case like this gets into court that will come into play. one is the abuse of discretion standard. it permeates the whole criminal justice system. yes, you might have broad discretion but you can still abuse that discretion and it sure looks like that's what the president did here by throwing his executive order tantrum when congress wouldn't fund his wall. so i think once this gets into court, i think the courts will enjoin him so quickly it will make his head spin. >> i mentioned marco rubio, susan collins, thom tillis. what does it say to you about the president's base and the degree to which maybe that is not the republican base?

what does it tell you about how that may be eroding as this plays out but also in the legislature? >> my fordham students and i were having a conversation about this on thursday. some of these senators are worried about primary challengers so they want to keep the president close because they know their primary challenger might be more in line with the president, but i think the genius part about the democrats and nancy pelosi forcing this issue right now is exactly what you said, getting these sick fan tick republicans on record to say are you going to vote strategically or sincerely. you know you don't want this wall. you know that $8 billion is absolutely ridiculous. so you have to say yes or no and we'll see who has the moral courage to stand up for the nation and make sure that we don't waste money and take resources away from other entities, or will they go along with their party and the president and essentially help him abuse presidential power. >> we shall see. thank you very much.

i appreciate all of you taking the time on this saturday. tomorrow, david wallace-wells and wellesley morris of the "new york times" are going to join us tomorrow morning on "up" from 8:00 to 10:00 eastern time. coming up in our next hour, michael cohen singing like a bird just days before he had set to testify before several congressional committees. one of the "new york times" reporters that broke that story that michael cohen has been talking to prosecutors here in new york joins us on set when we come back. come back. and i recently had hi, ia heart attack. it changed my life.

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welcome back to "up." starting this hour with michael cohen's tell-all with new york prosecutors. new information revealing the southern district of new york is getting more dirt on the trump organization. an explosive report from "the new york times" reveals trump's former lawyer is offering information about possible irregularities within the president's family business and about a donor to the inaugural committee, according to people familiar with the matter. unlike robert mueller's investigation, new york prosecutors have no limits on what they can investigate. here's what former new jersey governor chris christie had to say. >> the southern district of new york has no resdriksz on their per view. the southern district of new york does whatever the heck you want. you have michael cohen, the president's former lawyer, as a tour guide. that means you can go anywhere. >> michael cohen set to testify at three congress at hearings.

tuesday he will meet behind closed doors with the house and senate intelligence committees. on wednesday he'll offer public testimony before the house oversight committee. mi michael cohen has agreed to cover a wide range of topics from the 2016 election to his compliance with financial disclosure requirements, campaign finance laws and the president's business practices. joining me is one of the reporters who broke that story for "the new york times," willie rashbaum and eddie glaud, an msnbc contributor. mi mimi roca, tim o'brian. before we get to your piece, let me start with you, tim. you know the trump organization inside and out. help us understand the importance of this, the interest that federal prosecutors would have in michael cohen outside of

what they've been interested in, prosecutors largely, have been interested insofar. >> it gets to what secrets does michael cohen know. he joined the trump organization in 2006. he was essentially sort of a step and fetch it for the president. he used him as a pit bull to take on an add assortment of tasks. he was never someone who was in the middle of a lot of deals. he did some negotiation on transactions overseas but he was an enforcer, sort of a roy cohn light for trump. the issue with him is does this investigation of michael cohen get you deeper into the trump organization and get to other things the trump organization probably anticipates being under the scrutiny of prosecutors when donald trump first ran for public office. it's financial dealings, financial partners, the propryty of tax returns and other people in the organization coming up as potential witnesses. i thought for a while allen

weisberg for the trump organization, so it opens the door. >> there's the waterfront as laid out by tim. help us understand what we know the substance of this conversation or these conversations so far. >> i think it's important to remember that this is not the first time that michael cohen's been talking to the southern district and of course he spent somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 hours talking to robert mueller's investigators. so this is a sort of second pass that our understanding is came about as a result of michael's desire to go in and talk to them. >> he's hoping for a reduced prison term, crickeorrect? >> well, because he's been sentenced, the government, if they feel he's provided valuable information, they can file a motion with the judge seeking to have his sentence reduced.

what we reported was that the information that he provided them with was relatively narrow. the story talks about some business practices, possible im proprytys and business practices in the trump organization as well as their interest in ahmad zu gary. >> california venture capitalist, big donor to the right and the left. why is he a particular interest? >> he is the one -- if memory serves me, he's the one person named in the grand jury subpoena that the southern district recently issued for the inaugural committee. so they're obviously focused on him, among other things in terms of that investigation, a separate inquiry. the southern district also has been as a spinoff of the cohen investigation looking at whether the trump organization or officials of the trump

organization were part of a campaign finance conspiracy that resulted in hush money payments as we call them. >> mimi, i want to get your perspective on this. william saying this is the southern district taking a second pass at michael cohen. he volunteered to do that. but your reaction to this news, the focused way in which they've been talking to michael cohen about, yes, this donor, as michael cohen was setting up this consultancy that he wanted to have after the election, your reaction to the piece in the "times" today. >> i think it's clear what's going on here. michael cohen tried to cooperate halfway and give only information on certain topics. can't do that with the southern district of new york so he didn't get a cooperation agreement. the judge gave him three years in prison. michael cohen was very unhappy about that. he wants that time reduced so he's going back and saying, okay, you want to talk to me about more things, let's talk. >> the shoulder is feeling better, i have more time. >> not surprising, not uncommon. this happens, there's a specific provision in the federal rules

that allows for cooperation credit after sentencing because this is contemplated. people get sentenced to prison and all of a sudden they are more willing to be more full social med some in what they talk about. will michael cohen have more valuable information? my guess is yes. i think they know more than what he thought they knew. i think that we don't necessarily need to expect a smoking gun. there could be. michael cohen could have where the bodies are buried but cooperators can be valuable in different ways. the southern district tends to build cases like this on documents. they're not going to rely on michael cohen as a primary source of information. a cooperator can be a guide to the documents that you've subpoenaed, the bank records, the documents about campaign donations, about the inaugural fund. they already have an idea where

they're going. the question is, can michael cohen help explain and fill in the gaps. that's my guess. maybe he has some big smoking gun story but that isn't necessarily where prosecutors find the most value. >> your sense of michael cohen at this point in time, this is his moment in sun as he goes to washington d.c. i guess there will be more sunlight in the open session of the oversight committee. here he is, front page news today. he's going to be on the front page tuesday, wednesday, thursday of next week as he does this congressional testimony. >> and he's going to be in jail soon. look, i think mimi just hit it on the head. we don't quite know what michael cohen is going to reveal. we just know that he's trying to save his neck in some significant way. we also know this, at least from my vantage point, that his relationship with the southern district of new york, his testimony before congress on wednesday will put pressure on donald trump. what donald trump will do and

how he will behave over the coming week will be really, really interesting and fascinating. i'm just in a wait-and-see mode. we don't quite know what's going to happen but we do know that trump is going to lose his mind. the content of that will be very interest sglg wi interest. >> willie, your name was on two big pieces today. you have the manhattan district attorney working to bring a case against paul manafort. help us understand the degree to which he is cognizant of the need to do that. in other words, if the president were to pardon paul manafort at the federal level, does he see his work in light of that, does he see it as complimentary? are these two things discreet? >> i think that the district attorney, mr. vance, would not be going forward with this if

robert mueller was not if not supporting it, at least standing back. >> yes. >> i don't mean to suggest i think there's -- or certainly i don't have information that there's communication between those two offices but on the other hand it's hard to imagine that if he got waved off he would still go forward. i think you can assume at the very least that he hasn't been waved off. so does that mean that there's going to be a -- that the president's going footo pardon mr. manafort? i don't think so at all. i have no personal knowledge but i think it just makes sense from the point of view of the district attorney to have something in hand in case that eventuality comes to pass and it's worth noting that in some of the sentencing filings mueller's prosecutors pointed -- well, they speculated that

mr. manafort lied about providing the polling data konstantin kilimnik because he feared that if the president knew that he would not pardon him. it sort of cuts both ways, but if you step back for a minute and look at the larger context, mueller is winding down. that means that a lot of other investigations are probably going to be referred out to other u.s. attorneys offices and a lot of this is going to, to some degree, continue. it's not necessarily going to be the end. >> it means that the locust has shifted somehow. so much is centering on new york city. is that a fair read? >> i think that's healthy, first of all. i think we were too focused i think on one thing and i think

many people have been saying that. i feel like trump was almost getting away with that behavior and possibly criminal conduct because everyone was putting their eggs in the mueller basket which is a really important one but not the only one. i think we're hearing more about other investigations now. i don't know exactly why that is. that will continue. mueller was in such a black box. he kept everything so quiet. i don't know how he did that but he did. i think there tends to be more leaks when you're talking about state prosecutions, even other u.s. attorneys' offices. i don't think the prosecutors leak but obviously things get out. plus, you will see more charging documents and more subpoenas. you'll see more activity that can be reported on. so i think we'll hear about it more. i don't know that it means that there's actual shift but obviously one investigation in cases like this always leads to another. i think that's what we're going to see, is that it's just going

to keep growing and trump's problems are probably going to get worse, not better. >> thank you very much. great to see you on set with us. the rest of my panel is going to stick around. still ahead, president trump's best efforts to undermine robert mueller's report before it lands in the justice department. plus, systemic fraud in north carolina means the midterms are still not over. up next, the president's pick to be the next u.s. ambassador to the u.n. and the baggage she is bringing with her, presumably, to turtle bay. h her, presumably, to turtle bay

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i believe there are signs that both sides are accurate. both sides have their own results from their studies and i appreciate and i respect both sides of the science. >> that was kelly craft back in 2017 sharing her thoughts on the topic of climate change with the cbc. craft, the current u.s. ambassador to canada, is the latest of president trump's nominees to replace nikki haley as ambassador to the united nations. she and her husband, joe craft, who is a billionaire coal mining executive, are best known for being major gop donors. according to "the washington post" of their $1.5 million of 2016 contributions, more than $270,000 went directly to the trump campaign. she joins a growing list who have had questionable qualifications before joining the administration. my panel is back with me.

adrian, let me start with you. let's start with the climate change piece of this. she is nominated to be the face to the world in representing the u.s. in this body of more than 150 nations. she is going to be communicating u.s. positions to the world. that was from an interview with the cbc. how much do you make of that? what does that tell you about her qualifications for the job? >> she's exceptionally unqualified which is a trend we've seen time and time again in the trump administration. it's a combination of trump wanting people who are fiercely loyal to him, who may not be qualified for the job, combined with the fact that he's had a difficult time in some instances finding top tier talent because a lot of people don't want to work for his administration. to your point, david, this is somebody that will be the face of the united states of america to many other countries in the world, and to deny that climate change is real, to deny that climate change exists or to

question it is absurd and she's not the right person for this job. >> eddie, i'm going to get a tweet from somebody, i know it, saying she's qualified. she was the deputy ambassador. she has that, but i go back to the figures that i brought up in that introduction, how much money she and her husband have given. what does it say to you about who is representing us broadly on the world stage? we've always had political appointments when it comes to the diplomatic core but this seems like something new or novel entirely, that you can buy your way not to being the ambassador to paris or something like that, to a job that has real substance and significance here in new york city. >> it seems to me that the trump administration is full of a gang of grifters, right, and it's just over and over again. the evidence is clear. and then to hear what she's saying about climate change, the both sidism as it were, 36 inches in flagstaff, arizona. >> the snowfall. >> shattered every record by every meteorological standard.

it was unusual. then you contrast that to young people confronting senator dianne feinstein yesterday. climate change is real. we are at the precipice of a crises. this is his appointment. so it suggests not only do we have a swamp full of grifters, expect level grifters as i like to say, and someone who really is denying, i think, or waffling to be generous on the most pressing issue facing this generation and the generations to come. >> that's our first d and d reference we've had here. tim, i want to turn to you. in reading about kelly craft there was a political strategist who said mitch mcconnell wanted her to begin with, mitch mcconnell released a statement last night. he's a fellow kentuckian. this is who he wanted to begin with. he didn't want heather nauert to be in this job. think about that in the context of this piece that harry reid wrote about mitch mcconnell's

role right now. what does it say to you about this pick, that this is who mitch mcconnell wants, the strategist being quoted in that piece putting a spin on it that she's got approval of both ends. >> there's a cozy community in kentucky. remember, her husband, joe craft, runs alliance resources, one of the largest coal producers in the country. the crafts have and continue to have a very close relationship with scott pruitt. when scott pruitt was running the epa, there were a number of regulations that were beneficial to craft's company that got dumped. they live about a mile apart from one another in kentucky. mitch mcconnell has always been close to pruitt and to the crafts. i think this is a very small community of people who got access to both the regulatory power of the federal government and whetted that to their own business interest in order to pursue that was good for their waltz, n wallets, not necessarily the country. when we come back here, the president's public war with the special counsel, his efforts to

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1. welcome back to "up."

the wait continues. it was widely reported the justice department expected to see special counsel robert mueller's report as early as next week, but nbc news is reporting there has been pushback from a senior justice department official who says we'll have to wait a little while longer. that has not stopped president trump from continuing his efforts to undermine robert mueller's investigation. >> you know the nice part? there was no collusion, there was no obstruction, there was no anything. so that's the nice part. there was no phone calls, no nothing. so i look forward to seeing the report. if it's an honest report, it will say that. >> president trump tries to manage expectations, the veteran prosecutor has been following leads and tracing the contours of the trump campaign's contacts with russia. in court documents filed against paul manafort, the trump campaign chairman who lied about giving internal poll data to konstantin kilimnik, michael cohen says donald trump was pursuing a secret deal for a trump tower in moscow during the

campaign. roger stone seems to know quite a bit. we ha a former acting attorney general writes, while the report will disappointment some, brett kavanaugh -- l disappointment some, brett kavanaugh -- regardless of its conclusions, robert mueller's final report will not be the end of trump's legal problems. congressional democrats have already indicated that report is just a launching pad for congressional hearings. house intelligence chair adam schiff is intent on following the month. it's what he told my colleague chuck todd on "meet the press". >> there has been reporting that when it was alleged that the special counsel subpoenaed deutsch bank that the president moved to fire mueller and the way they talked him off the ledge was by promising that that reporting wasn't true, that the

special counsel helicopter subpoenaed deuts hasn't subpoenaed deutsch bank. if he's not he can't be doing much of a money laundering operation. >> this is kind of like the internet, you have all of these nodes and that leads to all of these jurisdictions, that one lead is going to lead to another and another. there was so much speculation about what we would see. do you say there's going to be some use to this document no matter what? >> i think yes and no. i think the length doesn't matter in terms of the ultimate result in consequences because mueller is so limited in his focus, his mandate. so he can only look at one area. if there are things that point to other areas of possible criminal

criminality, those will be pointed to but not extensively dealt with by mueller and other prosecutors, other investigators will take those up if they have not already. my guess is those are already under way. i don't think this is mueller just going to throw it out there and say, here, whoever can run with this run with it. i think there are plans for that in place. but i think that as to the central issue of what russia exactly did in our election, how they were able to do it and whether there were people here who helped facilitate their attack on our election, that needs to be answered in this report and it needs to get out to the american public. i don't know if he can do it in five pages or 500, but it needs to be as full to the american public as it can be. that is what his mission was and it is so important. it's not just about trump, it's about what the russians did and anyone who knowingly or

unknowingly, unwittingly helped facilitate that. >> that's what these congressional committees are asking for as well. let's talk about this cultural moment. there have been touch points during the course of this whole process. i think this last week was one of them where you look at the speculation, the enthusiasm surrounding the release of this report and it tells you what about the need for the report, about what americans want to see in the report? what do you make of that fury surrounding it? >> first we have to make a distinction. the fury around it, part of the talking class, the chattering class, the folks in d.c. -- >> i don't know who you're talking about. >> and the folks who are trying to make ends meet. i think where those two converge is this underlying sense that our democracy is in crises and that there's a need in some significant way to resolve the problem so that we could actually do a serious test case

about where we're standing, where we stand. one of the interesting things about trump and the russia investigation is that not only has he been attacking investigators and attacking the actors, not only has he been appealing to deep suspicion around the deep state, trying to activate that deep suspicion, and not only has he kind of hid behind the expansive powers of the executive, in exercising those three things in order to delegitimize the investigation, he has been in some ways eroding the very foundation of american democracy, eroding the trust in the system which was already at all-time lows. so part of i think the desire for this to resolve itself has everything to do with this sense and it's a looming sense, a dark sense that we're experiencing the twilight of this place, that we're at the precipice. so mueller, the burden on the investigation is so heavy. so if he doesn't come out with something that actually resolves it, i don't know where we will be. >> hand you a doughnut for that.

but to that point, adrian, there was a huge piece in "the new york times" this week about how the president has en newered so many americans to what's going on. we watched that clip and laughed when we saw him say no collusion. but if i had a nickel for every time he said that i'd be a very wealthy man. how worried are you in light of what eddie laid out there that we are becoming en newered here that he is having some success by doing that? >> i think that report also showed that 43% of the days that he's been in the white house he has criticized the mueller investigation. that's pretty significant. or he said no collusion, made some sort of reference in a negative way to the fact that robert mueller is trying to get to the bottom of what actually happened during the 2016 presidential election. this is a story that is very confusing if you're not following it every single day. i'm sitting at the table with experts here, especially mimi who was on top of everything,

but if you are the average american tuning in to the nightly news maybe for 20 minutes at night maybe watching a little bit of morning news before you take your kids to school, it is really hard to stay on top of this. so i think there is a lot of confusion around it, but again going back to the point that mimi made, it is important that every single american understand what happened and was there collusion, were there american actors involved in this that were colluding with russia. we've got a presidential election. the iowa caucus is less than a year from today which is also insane to think about. people need to know when they're going to the ballot box that their vote counts and it is not being impeded at all by foreign adversaries. so whether this is part of the mueller investigation, whether it comes out in the congressional investigations, we've got to get to the bottom of this, especially before the presidential election really takes shape. >> tim, i want to turn to you on some of the points that adrian raised. there's a groundhog day quality

to every day life in the white house. we played some of that pool spray. that was about china trade policy. maybe we got to that a few minutes in but you hit the same topics day after day. the american press being slugged by the president every day. >> there's a risk of scandal fatigue in all of this and there's unrealistic expectations about what bob mueller should accomplish here. bob mueller is a prosecutor and institutionalist. he's pursued this by the book. i think there's a lot of hope among trump's critics where people are disturbed by this craziness that we're surrounded by every day that this report is going to solve all of that and of course it won't. it's important to remember though that institutions have stood up to the president and have stood up to some of these various things that look minimal to be a criminal act but can be even worse, conspiracy to defraud the united states, and mueller has entered into that.

it's a first sort of wedge in all of this. there's been this discussion that trump is playing 3-d chess and he uses his twitter feed to destabilize the country. the reality is that his constant haranging of mueller and his investigators probably raised bob mueller's awareness very early on, that he needed to see the waters around him with other law en foorforcement agencies elsewhere in the country and in the law enforcement apparatus to insulate his own investigation. the net result is trump is probably going to live with investigations well beyond his presidency, going to the heart of his business operations, and all of those things are going to answer some of the questions that people want answered but bob mueller alone is not going to answer that. i think ultimately it's on voters. voters have to go to the polls and resolve these things law enforcement agencies won't. up next, the midterms are not over yet if you can believe it. the significance of the newly

called special election in north carolina. a huge story in my home state, the tar heel state, rooifld only by what happened wednesday night when president obama was on hand for the duke-unc game only to be overshadowed by zion williamson when his shoe exploded on the report. here with stephen colbert's take. >> check out what obama said the moment it happened. his shoe broke. so refreshing to see a president who can actually see a problem and identify it. problem and identify it. to be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪

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welcome back to "up." we've learned startling new details about an election in my states, north carolina. a house seat will stay unfilled until a new election takes place. this is the first time a new election has been called for a federal office due to admitted election tampering. president trump talks about election fraud even when there's no evidence it exists. it was no surprise reporters asked him about it yesterday in the oval office. here's what he had to say. >> mr. president, why haven't you condemned the north carolina election fraud? this is a big story. the republican candidate is calling for a new election. why have you not condemned that? >> i condemn any election fraud and when i look at what's happened in california with the votes, when i look at what happened, as you know there was just a case where they found a

million fraudulent votes, when i look at what's happened in texas -- excuse me. when i look at what's happened in texas, when i look at that catastrophe that took place in florida where the republicans kept getting less and less and less and fortunately rick scott ended up winning the election. >> suffice to say if there were a million ballots involved, that would be a huge story. my colleague has been in north carolina all week. we're going to get to her in just a moment. i'm going to start with you, eddie, and have you react to what you heard from the president there. there was amazing testimony in raleigh this week. we were talking about phillip bump's piece in "the washington post" when he brings this up. when you look at the long history of republicans talking about voter fraud, john fund has made his career about this, raising the alarm about what could be happening as he sees it or is happening as he sees it,

to have the president not come out and say something about this means what? >> he's a blatant hypocrite. first of all, he was lying through his teeth. every example was a lie. that's the first thing. second, another d and d example, his chaotic evil in some ways. we talk about institutions holding so that's in the beltway. here we see our democracy fundamentally challenged and threatened by political actors, by parties within the system itself, and the president of the united states cannot call it out. he's complicit in every single way. where is chris co box? where are these folks talking about voter fraud. part of what's happening and i'll say this really quickly. the republican party has confronted the bankruptcy of its ideas. tax cuts don't lead to growth. privacy and deregulation has destroyed the planet, inequality

growing. they have the politics of fear, the politics of hatred and trying to restrict who can vote, that the voter fraud issue has always been about narrowing our democracy. limiting it had nothing to do with democracy and this is proof. it's evidence they don't give a damn, period. >> leah, you were in that hearing room in raleigh. there were so many remarkable moments, not the least of which when mark harris, the republican candidate, came back from that lunch break and said he wanted to read that statement. i think a lot of people say this is happening in a house district in north carolina, what's the story here, why does this matter. was it immediately evident to everyone in the room how important this is not to have allegations of election fraud here but to have this kind of systemic election fraud spelled out in the way in which it was in that hearing room in raleigh? >> yeah, absolutely, david. it was really an important moment and this fascinating story that really began just a couple days after election day back in november when the north

carolina state board of election declined to certify this race and a couple other local ones twice. it came out that there was absentee ballot fraud and mark harris, the republican candidate, was closely tied to it. i think that the reason that this became such a big moment, such a national story and why the board declined to certify this race is because it was a federal race and there was such a small margin between the republican and the democrat in the final results. there's been suspicion that there's been this weird stuff going on in these two sometimes more rural counties in north carolina regarding absentee ballots and it was really this time because of the dynamics in the circumstances that it came to light. i will say though that lawyers of the state board of election, they came up to me and a couple other people and said thank you for staying on this story, especially the local

journalists, because without it, a lot of this stuff would not have come to light. it's really a win for journal m journalism. >> adrian, i'll turn to you lastly here. where do we go from here? there will be in primary. there's a secondary election this happens in north carolina but how do you, as an observer of u.s. politics, react to this story? what does it tell you about the path forward? >> what i think is going to be i interesting to watch is to see how much money democrats and republicans put into this race. democrats have full control of the house now. it's not like the democratic national campaign committee needs to put a couple million dollars in to secure this seat or try to win this seat. it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. however, at the same time i think there's a lot of democrats and republicans, regardless of your party affiliation out there in america, who want to make sure that democracy is properly represented in this district. ballot harvesting is what happened here. in north carolina, as you know, it is legal for somebody else to take your absentee ballot and take it to the voting location.

you cannot do that and that is what happened here. i think a lot of americans, again, regardless of political party, want to make sure that justice is served and that this election in north carolina is fairly executed. >> leanne, thank you very much. i like what the local reporters said about the spotlight you've shone on this. you were in that rural counties soon after the election took place. thank you very much for your reporting. allegations of a hostile work environment of amy klobuchar are leaving many to ask, how exactly do you eat a salad with a comb? we'll try to answer that question when we come back. we'll try to answer that question when we come back

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the senator hoping to win the white house with her midwestern niceness is now facing new allegations of mistreating her congressional staff. "the new york times" supporting amy klobuchar berated a staff member at an airport back in 2008 for failing to bring her a fork with her salad. senator klobuchar ate the salad using a comb from her bag, then handed the comb to her aide and told him to clean it. the story details other instances like when parched one day in the capitol she turned to

a member of her team and said i would trade three of you for a bottle of water. klobuchar has addressed allegations of staff mistreatment before. >> i know i can be too tough sometimes and i can push too hard. that's obvious, but a lot of it is because i have high expectations for i have high expectations for myself, for the people that work with e me. >> she says a male candidate could not be criticized the same way. picturing someone eating a salad with a comb which i think will make this stick. your reaction to this. this article came out a fee weeks back saying she was tough on staff, the story has not really gone away, but your reaction to it, how much is because senator klobuchar is a woman.

>> first of all, i spoke to staffers and none would go on the record. there was disgruntled staffers possibly, we don't know that. secondly the "new york times" wrote this piece last night, i want to see if for every candidate running. i have worked for some tough bosses. i have seen some of my bosses not in the most positive height, but when it comes to women there is so much pressure to be perfect and exceed expectations. i'm sure there are moments that senator klobuchar stated she is not proud of, but she has high expectations of her staff but we have to get off of this focus

consta constantly on the way she treats her staff. we we do that we have the level the playing field for everyone else and every our candidate deserves the same scrutiny. >> just a moment ago. we talked about the importance of elections, we're a year out from the iowa caucuses, but what do you make to the dlee is a point of focus at this point? >> i think it should not be. amy klobuchar, it also quoted people who said favorable things about them. you don't invite someone to your wedding, i think the perspective of people that work for someone is very subjective. i think that is a very select group of people. i care about how amy klobuchar's

character, i care about every candidate's character. i don't think these stories answer that question. let's talk about their character and let's talk about donald trump's character because he will be a candidate and his character is horrific. and we should be talking about that and the people he surrounds himself with. the fact that she used a comb to eat a salad shows problem solving skills. john hilliar dsd, you spent tim with klobuchar, how is she dealing with this? it is a story that broke overnight but it was percolating in the last few weeks, vaughn. >> yeah, good morning, david.

if i could fast to the defense of the reporters there, they had quite an accounting. they talked to two dozen current and former officials in her office and this was not new for anyone that lives in washington, these types of stories, but what about here in des moines and ohio. there is not a single individual on the ground. there is not a single individual here in ohio that told me those stories moved them away from amy klobuchar. if anything they said the word grip that is essentially the headline she starts her stunt speeches with. she says i don't have a political machine, i don't have big money, but i have grit, and these stories lay right in into that. my mother was a teacher, she comes in here and she says i'm a woman from the midwest who will work hard and i have to be frank

there is one accounted for a staffer, there was a binder that she threw and hit a staffer and she said my first thought was throwing a binder full of women. and i have to tell you out of all of the candidates, i go do these events and i say what do you think of elizabeth warn, what about kamala harris? joe biden? amy klobuchar, i have yet to fete a single individual that tells me absolutely no, i think she will be a big player here in ris iowa. coming up next hour, my klieg joy reed will be live in des moin moines, iowa ahead of her sit down with kamala harris. that is coming up. kamala harris. that is coming up.

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check in from afar with remote access, ♪ and have professional monitoring backing you up with xfinity home. demo in an xfinity store. call, or go online today. >> that does it for me today, "a.m. joy" with joy reed starts now. >> have you spoked to him about that? >> i have not. >> do you expect to? >> at some point i guess i will be talking about. if it is not honest it will say that, if it's not honest, it

won't. >> good morning and welcome to a.m. joy. america has been waiting and waiting and waiting on robert mueller's report summarizing his finding between the trump campaign and russia, but the predictions of when that report would drop have been, shall we say, off. the fact that it was finally about to be mueller time did not pan out. the waiting game also continues for the sentencing memo from paul manafort. they are apparently working on redacting sensitive information. they are expecting to shed more light on how mueller fits in to