a.m. joy. america has been waiting and waiting and waiting on robert mueller's report summarizing his finding between the trump campaign and russia, but the predictions of when that report would drop have been, shall we say, off. the fact that it was finally about to be mueller time did not pan out. the waiting game also continues for the sentencing memo from paul manafort. they are apparently working on redacting sensitive information. they are expecting to shed more light on how mueller fits in to the investigation on russian

interferen interference. it could ensure that paul man fort faces significant jail time. joining me is matthew miller and former pokes man. mia wiley, thank you all for being here, cynthia, thank you for being here. he doesn't miss deadlines, he is on point, dutiful, and to the book. what do you make of the deadline coming and going? >> it only came and went for us. it doesn't mean it came and went for mueller. my guess is that it is filed. it seems unlikely to me that they missed a deadline. they have to get it files, and also be talking to the court

about what would be redacted, they're just being careful. >> who is the decider on what comes out. we think of the trump administration as having that authority. >> no, they will probably be proposed by mueller, commented on by the defense council, and ultimately ruled on by the court. manafort is in a really horrible position, he is facing a life in prison. he was already caught being dishonest after making an arangement to tell everything that he apparently knew.

they are preparing to file criminal charges against manafort. pardons would not help him. he has a broad power to issue pardons, but no such authority in state cases and while there has been no clear indication. he has been very consistent in praising manafort standing strong and maybe because he was not onnest with prosecutors and he can't help him. what does that mean about manafort's jeopardy to trump. >> i think the jeopardy to trump has not changed in one direction or the other, this is a situation where paul manafort

made his own testy to make good on his agreement. he was always, i think he was in charge, i think the real issue is what is it that robert mueller knows and how does that impact donald trump. and whatever manafort was communicating to the white house when he was violating his cooperation agreement, whatever he was doing, that is something that we can assume that robert mueller knows. and so whatever that jeopardy is, that is the jeopardy. >> and you know, you're right, so the manafort piece of this has to do with the original prime directive. what complicity the campaign may have had with it. i want to stay with that for a moment. manafort has the potential to make that connection between that piece of it, that's what a

lot of people want to know, what is the hikely hood that that kind of information gets to the public. a lot of that sounds like just the kind of thing that one could say that needs to be classified. that touches on national security. >> i think a lot of the information has been in the public since 2016. i remember when he was on trump's campaign, and i thought oh man, he had been under federal investigation before. he is notorious for being involved in organized crime, and he changed the republican national platform to please his benefactors. and they are associated with them for 30 years. you can trace the crimes of paul manafort. post indictment he want on to commit more crimes, there is such a wealth of information, i

don't think we quite need the mueller report to see that information. we need indictments, we need people like manafort to be put behind bars as an issue of public safety. >> are you saying this guy would have could have been a suspicious hire. he has been indicted for crimes from decades ago. why did the media not go after manafort once he was colleselecs the campaign chairman. people think clearly someone would do something about it if he was a criminal, but no one did anything and now you a russian asset as the president

of the united states backed up by a transnational crime syndicate masquerading as a government. >> you have been saying this on this show since 2016. you were saying it but nobody was listening, nobody was listening. let's go to the other guy with potential incredible jeopardy for donald trump. speaking of people that know what's what about jump, they have known about it for decades, but i want to go to you on this, michael cohen who, donald trump for whatever reason discarded and knows a lot about the operations of his former business, is now set to e testify. he will go before the senate intelligence committee, and the house intelligence committee. look at on this raft of raft of

information. payments relating to efforts for the 2016 election his compliance with the laws and potential conflicts of interest, the dc ho tell, public statements, and donald trump called it a red line, for anyone to go into his businesses, you have the manafort piece. let me listen to lanny davis. >> he needs to tell his story, you will hear in personal front line experience of conduct and comments that donald trump said

in that ten-year time here, that when i first heard michael tell me all of this, as much as i knew about trump that was negative, that was chilling. >> natasha, in your reporteding does the truck team understand that not only did he expose for the world his long standing ties to the rub shan ossian olagarch. >> not even the trump campaign thought they would win, they were using it as a platform for trump. he did not think he was going to win on election night as shocked as everyone else, according to all of the reporting we have seen, but i think michael cohen

is an opportunistic person. he lost the president's support after he was raided, and he is talking to whoever will. if the mueller report is brief and provides the attorney general, if it is lengthy, it is this kind of thing, the business practices that will come under scrutiny by investigators under the southern district of new york and that is the kind of investigation that michael cohen can help with. he may be helping with the russian aspect of it, but it is my understanding that he has not been as helpful on that has he has been to prosecutors in the

southern district and the new york state attorney general that is investigating the trump foundation, for example. but i think this is where the more immediate criminal jeopardy for the president may lie even if mueller does not find evidence of a conspiracy that can be charged as such between the trump campaign and russia. when we look at what michael cohen will do, we know it will not be russia related, but there is a lot of people's eyes, especially in congress, when they're considering whether or not to watch impeachment proceedings, for what the president has been doing for the last 30 years of his business career and especially the last ten when russia has really come under skrooutny. . it is on steroids now because he is being investigating by three different committees, and it is obviously prosecutors, matthew

miller, i was talking to someone yesterday, the way that the donald trump era is kind of like we're all living in this marvel comics version of whatever was happen e.ing in palm beach and of these bizarre characters, and they're all pulled into washington in this comic book like narrative. one of those is roger stone. roger stone who has now been silenced with a gag order by the judge that shockingly allowed him to remain out of jail even half he posted this very ill advised federal judge. the fact that she had the power to jail him welcome how does he play here. he is part of the collusion and

the donald trump's past piece. >> first is his criminal exposure. we know he has been indicted, and what happens often as defendants get close to trial is they think about the possibility of jail time and decide it is time to work with prosecutors. at that point we'll find out whether or not we have any information that would implicate the president in a crime, and whether or not that investigatioinformation is valuable enough for him to bring to prosecutors for a plea deal. we have talked so much about the investigations of the president, and the bar for appropriate behavior has been proven.

i think if you look at all of the characters around the president that have gone to jail, they're preparing to go to jail, and those around the president that are engrossed in scandal in the cabinet and close to him on the outside, you look at this and say we have not yet seen direct evidence of a crime by the president that has been proven in court. that doesn't mean the president's behavior has been appropriate. he is shown as crossly unfit for office. >> one other time that we have seen actually criminality. and brilliant work by rachael maddow, could a sit the vice president be indicted, yes.

i have not heard definitive evidence that a president can't be. it is fascinating stuff. cynthia, matt, and sarah will join us again later in the show. coming up, donald trump's labor secretary may finally have to face the consequences of a very, very ugly deal. that is next. a very, very ugly deal that is next -their béarnaise sauce here is the best in town. [ soft piano music playing ] mm, uh, what do you do for fun? -not this. ♪ -oh, what am i into? mostly progressive's name your price tool. helps people find coverage options based on their budget. flo has it, i want it, it's a whole thing, and she's right there. -yeah, she's my ride. this date's lame. he has pics of you on his phone. -they're very tasteful. but i never had the time and then i tried babbel.

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alexander acosta, who was an attorney in miami, they broke the law while cutting an extremely generous deal with jeffrey epstein, the billionaire accused of assaulting more than 30 underaged girls at his mansion. he served 13 months in jail with generous time out his cell after he was charged with abusing dozens of young girls and procuring victims for others. the prosecutors that cut that sweet deal didn't tell epstein's victims about it until it was too late for them to protest. alex acosta also mislead the

victims into believing he could still be prosecuted. but his job as labor secretary seems safe because his boss, donald trump, seems surprisingly indifferent to the horror. >> do you have any concerns about the epstein case? >> it seems like a long time ago, he has been a fantastic labor secretary, that's all i can tell you, that's all i know. >> it is worth noting that donald trump was a pal of jeffrey e perpstein for many ye. they have not responded to a request for comment. acosta followed doj procedures in making the plea deal, but they're investigating whether or not he committed professional

misconduct. cynthia, i cannot fathom this could have been followed policy. this kind of a sweet heart deal. >> it's not following policy. that's what the court found. this is a near and dear. the prosecutors in this case had the responsibility to protect these girls, they treated them li like dirt. they lied to them, they said have patience, and behind their back they were doing a sweet heart deal with these defense attorne attorneys, everybody knew everybody. and the prosecutors, they're either buddies talking about going out for starbucks or they're almost deferential to the defense attorneys. they demand to see things before.

no defense attorney ever demanded twice of me of anything and i never would have been deferential to someone in a sex crimes case that abused 40 girls and should be in jail for the rest of his life. when you say he was in jail for 13 months he was not really in jail. when your driver picks you up in the morning and takes you to your office, and takes you to your fan tcy and takes you backo jail to sleep there, that is not my idea of jail. we may need a special prosecutor. this is outrageous. >> and the thing is, matthew, you know we were in an era where donald trump ran for president saying the system is rigged, but for average people, i think they're feeling like absolutely the system is rigged. a welty man being charged with

something this heinous. procuring under age victims to sell, essentially, and then with such deference because he is rich, right? you're rich, you get, you're not, you don't get. he had not only ken star, but also jeffrey -- ken star. here is morning joe talking about who he had as palled. >> a mentioned an experience i had with him where he tried to suck me into that world and in 30 seconds i could see there was something very, very wrong here and i think the real, and julie i don't know if you ever will go there but to really dig into the highest of the high, and not just one, men in this who had

friendships with him. >> matthew, what does it say about ordinary people, regular people, if they matter at all. >>. >> it is so heartbreaking, it is one of the problems, rich people that can afford good lawyers, make the department of justice know that should they indict them they will fight every bit, they will get a better deal than someone with a public defender. it is a bias that is built into the system that no one has ever really tried seriously to tackle. i think if you look at this case there are two things. one is the questions around whether or not this deal was fair or not. i have seen some people i respect that worked in that office that came out to say we

got the best deal that we could on that. if there wasn't, there needs to be serious sanctions for the lawyers involved. when you look at what the judge found last week, that they didn't notify the victims here. when i see the defense attorneys, they seem to be conspireing to keep the information away, it makes me sick to my stomach. i can't imagine how prosecutors got so involved with these defense attorneys, to be in bed with them, and i can't think of any rational for keeping information in the way of victims in the way they did, it is really revolting. >> and this is a guy who had

friends to include the future president of the investigation. he is a lot of fun to be around. he says he likes beautiful women. no doubt about it, jeffrey enjoys his social life. when people look at the criminal justice system, we have the harvey weinsteins and the r. kellys of the world they can offend and offend. they feel they have a playground of doing whatever they want. so i wonder if you're satisfied with the next steps in this case. the central judge while ruling that alex acosta wroek the law,

stop short, the judge, of overturning the plea deal or issuing an horder resolving the case and gave prosecutors 15 days to confer and come up with a settlement. >> it is a good start, it is better than where we were three days ago. and it wasn't just president trump, but it was more. it is equal opportunity slime fest down there. as i read about these cases, epstein, he does a lot of information into the lawyers and says bad things about the lawyers. he just had to pressure them to drop the case. they're not just good lawyers doing good lawyering, some of it is rich fancy lawyers doing bad

lawyering. so there is more to this case. he is playing dirty, he knows everybody, and he has influence and friends. >> yeah, let's see if the robert kraft case comes out differently. people with a lot of money comes out -- >> with the kraft case it will be plead out in five seconds. >> a nice tease there by cynthia, we'll be talking about that next, next up, thank you very much, both of you, another one of trump's buddies gets pinched for an alleged sex crime. r an alleged sex crime. to be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best

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what about the charges against bob craft? >> i am surprised to see it. >> the celebratory high of the patriots super bowl win quickly deflated on friday when robert kraft was charged with two counts of soliciting

prostitution. the arrest came amid a sprawling human trafficking probe, but kr kraft is not expected to be involved in the trafficking. a statement from his camp staid we denied in criminal activity. but authorities say they have evidence including video of him being engaged in sexual activity. and donald trump finally reacts to a several pro claimed white supremacist accused of plotting a domestic terror attack. plott a domestic terror attack

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the sheer number and force of the weapon that's were recovered from mr. hassin's resident in this case, coupled with the disturbing nature of his writings, reflects a threat to our community. >> it remains a priority at the fbi and we will continue to use investigative resources for those types of activities. >> had it not been for george washington's university program on extremism, we may not have

known about histo terror lot. they found a cash firearms and steroids. a list eerily similar to the people that donald trump goes after on twitter. it took until friday afternoon for trump to react to the news and then trump department seem to understand the effect that his language has. >> were you briefed on the coast guard member that was arrested for threatening democrats and others -- >> i'm getting a very final, complete briefing in about two hours after this. >> any thoughts on this man? >> i think it is a shame when a thing like that happens. i expressed that but i'm getting a very complete briefing in about two hours. >> do you think you bear any responsibility for your language. >> no, i think my language is very nice. >> joining me now is darrel

darreldarrell darrell lamont jenkins. and malcolm nance. author of the plot to destroy humanity. he said he wanted to create a white homeland, he wrote to a known white nationalist not named in the indictment, and some of the other things he did was go after a list of people that trump goes after. people like joe scarborough, chris hays, don lemon, a lot of members of congress, richard blumenthal, tim kaine, max seen waters, kamala harris. aoc who is frequently a target.

he went off what was presumably was elizabeth warren. he called her poca warren. can you draw a line between the rhetoric of this president and this kind of idea? this manifesto, idea. it is also tied to something separate that is white nationalists and wanting to have a white homeland. >> his writings and what he was basing his ideology was was a kbloeblist, whi i globalist, white nationalist belief, that there are these nig knights that arm themselves and take on the establishment of liberals themselves. that was make typical by a man

that murrayed 77,000 people. he started with a car bomb, then he killed 69 children to "eliminate the next generation of liberal leadership from norway." he believed he would go out and carry out a run and gun attack where he would kill the liberal leadership of the united states. granted it might have been a fantasy in his head. the probability of him getting away with that is not good, but it's not zero. that's where the problem lies. he had an siideology in his ahe th -- head that we're hearing every day. we had the pipe bomber try to do the same thing in a more crude fashion. this was a very dangerous circumstance that we have to be on guard for all of the time. >> we had it all of the way back to the posse's in the '70s and

the '80s with people refusing to pay taxes and things like that. we have not had a twhwhite hous that is tell glegraphing a messg that getting scooped up. there is a piece out right now that says trump should stop telling hateful lies that racist terrorists believe. he believed in malicious fixes similar to our president's spreads and saw them as rationalizations for violence. this is donald trump talking about the media who he used as an attack point. >> i hate some of these people, but i would never kill hem. i hate them. these people, i will be honest. i will be honest. i would never kill them.

i would never kill them, but do i hate them. some of them are such lying and disgusting people. what do hate groups take from comments like that. what does that do inside these movements. >> the fact that they are par y parodying what he says speaks to what they do and who they are. you see in this gentleman's writing that he is repeating things that trump has engaged in. it is also the people that surround donald trump.

that donald trump has surrounded himself with. you spoke of the person that mr. hassan was writing to, err he was a notorious white nationalist that wanted a white ethno state in the northwest. i bring it up swauz there are gentlemen that are involved that are connected to folks like roger stone. and when you start talking about getting that close, with this kind of rhetoric, and this kind of hate mongering, we have ourselves a problem that we need to address. >> and you had steve bannon hired by donald trump to run his campaign and alt-right is a term

that richard spencer invented because it means white nationalism. >> and he had a friend when he was at duke university, as a grad student, his name stephen miller, and we swree that comes o -- where that comes from. >> donald trump constantly attacks federal law enforcement anyway, they're not exactly getting support from the top, and now you have a sense that these people even if donald trump doesn't mean to have it sound that way, they feel they have access. what is law enforcement to do? >> that's what i want to talk about with regards to donald trump's tape, when he made those remarks, that is a siren to these people. he says i would not kill the media dot dot dot and he is

leaving it up to the foot soldier to act as an independent actor. carry out a fantasy in his head. i met the state trooper that pulled over timothy mcvay and took him into custody. i said do you have a weapon? mcvay beamed at him as if i'm with you, i'm one your your guys, like yes, sir, i do like he was in on the plot. the policeman is not in on the plot and took him into custody. the fbi and the white house support them and that is when it could into violent murderous action. >> and both of you gentlemen are

military veterans, and he worked at the coast guard headquarters. he was in a position of trust win our military. >> the person they was referring to that is close to jack, she a military and naval reservist, an intelligence officer, he has his clearance suspended after charlottesville. he was in the room when roger stone was getting his gag order. i went offer four or five years ago that was a military contractor engaging in nonlethal explosiv explosives. as far as i know he is still there, five years ago he was working with the military and this is, again, something we need to be concerned about and i

will note something else regarding the police. and i know we're running out of time here, but when you consider what is going on in portland, oregon today when they found out that some of the local law enforcement was engaging and working with or corresponding with the patriot prayer extremist groups out there and allowing notion with warns to continue on as they do, that is something that the local folks will have to be concerned about, but that's the kind of climate we have today. >> yeah, and he informs a focus group that we did during the campaign. >> he is a load of laughs. >> yeah. >> that's right, all right, oh boy, what a a world. thank you we're glad to have you as a resource for this stuff. e f (whispers) with the capital one venture card...

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there should be no fuzz on this whatsoever. the russians interfered in our election during the 2016 cycle.

they did it with purpose, with sophistication, they did it with overwhelming technical efforts. >> was the russian activity into the 2016 election a one off proposition or is this part of a long-term strategy and will they be back? >> it's a long-term practice. it stepped up in '16. they will be back. >> history is repeating itself. in 2016 russian bots infiltrated social media in a coordinated effort to affect the outcome of the presidential election and to weaken our democracy. according to a report in politico this week it's happening again. the main targets appear to be 2020 democratic presidential candidates. senators kamala harris, elizabeth warren, bernie sanders and former congressman beto o'rourke, not jet announced his candidacy, but has performed strongly in preliminary polls. joining me is shah rene mitchell, stop on-line violence

against women and welcome back to the show. >> thank you for having me back. >> of course. one of the things that you and i talk about a lot when we talk about the sustained campaigns one of the things that gets missed is a lot of the targeting is focused and fixated on african-americans and black women in particular. couple of items, elizabeth warren a hoax going around showing a generic vase behind her which people are claiming is a black face doll trying to make her seem racist and the second one kamala harris, who even tweeting her name, invites a torrent of bot activity being one of the most targeted according to the "guardian," harris attracted the most overall twitter activity among the 2020 candidates, 2.5 million mentions in a 30-day period and among the most targeted. one widely seen tweet employed racist attempts with governor willie brown et cetera what is

this about? >> this is about the success of 2016. the key to this is that social media has allowed this way of sort of messing with our democracy because people don't know what -- who they're talking to and what to believe. there's a lot of authentic accounts being funneled and amplified by inauthentic accounts. we have a problem not just with our democracy but with our congress who won't, you know, hold these tech companies accountable benefiting from extra accounts, inauthentic ones helps their evaluation and at the end of the day this is about ways we can provide disinformation and things that people might believe that's based on reflexive control. the race-basesed part is really important because it is -- it's a particular focus on the black vote and voter suppression and if we don't understand that this is about soervoter suppression negates what's happening. there's a lot of denial about

this going on and happening at all and we're so far behind this as we know has already happened in 2016, and in this report they were very clear, it has gotten to be more sophisticated and more entry gait and we still are trying to figure out that it exists at all. that's a fundamental problem for us. >> yeah. just quickly, how can people tell if accounts that are tweeting at them are real or fake? >> i mean, again, the key aspects to this is that i think people think bots are sort of automated and the information or things being said too them are sort of just a constant -- the sameness, like the same language used. actually they're way more sophisticated than that. when the russian troll farm existed we had people who came out and said i was sitting next to the guy pretending to be mexican, right, he's a russian but pretending to be mexican. he still had the linguistics and language of being mexican and the same thing of

african-americans. the algorithms are not catching it because the algorithms think that black linguistics is closer to turkish than english. we don't have a sort of technological solve to this. we have to solve this ourselves and be aware of what we're looking at and check the accounts. make sure they didn't just get started and that you're not just talking to a troll farm. >> to a troll farm, new account just formed or only tweeted about retweeting cat photos and now tweeting about kamala harris. >> exactly. only two accounts, yeah. thank you. >> absolutely. thank you very much. more "am joy" after the break. k. more "am joy" after the break. ss cookie cutter portfolios. fisher investments tailors portfolios to your goals and needs. some only call when they have something to sell. fisher calls regularly so you stay informed. and while some advisors are happy to earn commissions

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treating cancer is more than our mission. it's our passion. expert medicine works here. learn more at cancercenter.com. cancer treatment centers of america. appointments available now. we're going to barn storm iowa over the next three days, do events here in des moines, in the western part of the state, other parts of the state. >> i think you all know that i am from minnesota, the senator next door, right. i like to say that i can see eye what from my porch. >> as much as my story has all been about new jersey the reality is my roots are right here in des moines. so you know my grandmother was born and raised in this city. >> good morning. and welcome to "am joy." live from des moines, iowa, where dozens of democratic 2020 hopefuls will stop on the

campaign trail to make their case for the presidency of the united states. 2020 contenders kamala harris, julien castro and more will be campaigning in iowa this weekend and new york city mayor bill de blasio and senator michael bennett and senator john hickenlooper are here in the haw i could state, shaping up to be one of the diverse fields stacked with candidates vowing to take on donald trump in 2020. trump claims to be unfazed. >> you got a lot of people running, but only one person is going to win. i hope you know who that person is. good-bye, everybody. >> joining me now is jonathan capehart of "the washington post," political consultant jimmy williams, kathie obroadvich, charles pierce and sara, author of "the view from flyover country." thank you very much. let me go to you first, kathie, welcome to the show and we are

happy to be in your fair state. just the list of people who are here, kathie, john, be eric swalwell is here who has not announced yet, kirsten gillibrand, kamala harris we will interview today, amy cho bashar, john hickenlooper, sherrod brown, cory booker. michael bennett as we mentioned. iowans have a particular -- there's an interesting thing about iowa in that when we talk to iowans about these candidates they usually call them by their first names because iowans expect a level of personal interaction because it's unusual and a small state and what people expect here. in your reporting are any of these dozen or more candidates breaking through in these interactions? >> you know, i think that first of all you're right, iowans do expect to have kind of a relationship with candidates and people say, well, oh, you've met

so and so. yeah, but i haven't met them three or four times. i can't make up my mind yet. we're in that stage right now. all of these candidates are attracting big crowds, even during blizzards. we've had a terrible winter here in iowa, but people are actually turning out in the snow to see these candidates. i think they're just sizing them up now. it's impressive if you run into an i owe wan who can name all the candidates. you need a bingo card to keep track of all of them. it's something iowans take seriously and they are going to be interested in policy as well as personality. i personally hope that iowans will pay a lot more attention to policy than personality this time around. ultimately i think it's -- the strong personalities are going to stand out first and so you've got elizabeth warren, you've got kamala harris, even amy

klobuchar well-known to iowans, those personalities, cory booker, because they're entertaining and interesting to go see. bernie sanders now in the race, iowans have a long relationship with bernie sanders. i am getting the feeling that people are not that excited yet about bernie sanders' candidacy. i think he will have to bring be something new this time. >> yeah. it's interesting because you do have a couple of people potentially in that have universal name recognition, meaning former vice president joe biden, senator sanders, they have universal name i.d. interesting to see where they end up and how that plays out versus the people who have nor newness going for them. to jimmy, this "time" magazine cover that's fun in it shows everybody looking in the window of the white house. they even put stacey abrams in there, who is not running for president that i know of. everyone sort of looking in and jockey for position. that's the theme, right,

everybody wants to run because they think trump presents an opportunity. as a veteran political consultant, if there are 20 candidates, what can be done to stand out if you're not one of the candidates with universal name i.d. >> i think you have to be personable and make a case as to why you should be president and ask them for their vote and you have to convince them you're the guy or gal that can beat him, pure and simple. i know people are saying it's got to be a person of this or this identity politics, et cetera, but i can promise you this once we start actually voting a year from now, guess what, the only thing people are going to be thinking about is, can my guy or gal beat the serial sexual predator white nationalist in the white house. that's all they give a dam about. in the end now is a time for the candidates all from the lesser known to the widely known to make a case for themselves.

michael bennett, a senator from colorado, the senior senator, right now as we speak. in this morning's "des moines register" about it, talking about children and education. this is a white middle-aged dude been in the senate nobody knew about until two weeks ago before when he attacked ted cruz. now he's talking about education and children. key issues for people across the country. the question, though, is, can he break through? this is when you do it. this is when you build the legacy and that's how people like bennett and others will either rise or fall according to the voters. >> he's going to trip over his own governor because hickenlooper is here. >> that's true. >> sara, a lot of people know you as somebody we've had on a couple years talking about trump and the authoritarianism and you wrote a book called "a view from flyover country" and you live in the midwest and live around the

kind of people that the amy klobuchars of the world, michael bennetts hope to appeal to. we've been talking to people, as my producers and i roll around town, and a lot of the issues you hear talking about here have to do with being the working poor, not being able to afford child care, not being able to, you know, when you get off public assistance you lose pieces because you went to work so now you don't get food stamps and trying to figure out how to juggle. are those issues sizzling enough for a presidential candidate to run on? that's not -- we never hear about poverty since john edwards, we don't hear about that? >> that's absolutely something that people should be bringing up, not to win an election because -- but because their job is to serve the public and the public has been suffering a long time. most americans don't have $400 to use if there's an emergency. they have part-time jobs, unpaid labor. these are issues that any contender should address. kind of, you know, putting together what i often talk about here kleptocracy in the

election, any candidate should make a case that this kind of global kleptocratic transnational crime that we've been seeing within the trump administration is linked to domestic policy and affecting our economy all oligarchy and plutocracy are two sides of the same coin and i would respect a candidate able to make that case to the average voter. this is something that is affecting their daily lives and people are hurting and they absolutely should not have to suffer in that way. >> you know, it's interesting, that's an interesting point. when you -- if you tie together these stories about rich man's justice in the case of a jeffrey epstein, as horrible as those crimes were, the tax cut which helped the plutocrats but left everybody with the bill, everything from the trade policies that are hurting soybean farmers but ar cher daniels midland have their lobbies so they have corn and everything, there is a growing

sense that the system is rigged for the super rich and maybe even donald trump is in on it. i wonder if, you know, if an elizabeth warren gets sort of an advantage in the sense she really authentically over the course of going from being a republican to a democrat, came to this view and is that a message that democrats can embrace or do they get so attacked by this, you know, need for centuries m they get scared way from that? >> i don't know. i think senator warren's messages you point out is something whether you are a democrat or disaffected republican, is something that you can go towards, that sort of sings to you. another person who has that kind of message is south bend, indiana mayor, who the way he talks about the democratic party, he is unapologetically liberal, unapologetically progressive, in a little -- small town in red state indiana. and yet, when he was elected the first time as mayor he won by 74

or 76% of the vote. the second time he ran for mayor he won by 80% of the vote because he talks to the people in his city in a way that sort of crosses ideological lines and he talks about the democratic party in ways that sort of takes back the language that the republican party used to use to try to distinguish itself from the democratic party, freedom, security. these are all the issues where if you are looking at the system and you think that it's rigged and you think that, you know, the bills that you have due are not because of some quote/unquote bads choices you've made but been taken advantage of by the system here is someone who can talk to you. it's not just the mayor but senator warren, booker, all the candidates will have a message to the democratic party faithful but to the nation in general they are the candidate, he or she is the person who can not only take back the white house from president trump and restore some honor and dignity to the

white house, but who will also go to the white house and work for them no matter who they are in a way that the current president of the united states won't do. >> and, you know, charlie, with all of that important stuff on the table you know what we do, it's the horse race. it's how much money you're raising and where are you in the polls? it's inescapable because it's the metric we use. who is breaking through, the two metrics let's go through them both, joe biden has a universal name i.d., not surprising he's at the top of the democrat -- a poll that emmerson recently did, that, you know, just asked iowa democratic voters, specifically, joe biden is right there at the top. interesting that kamala harris has gone from no name i.d. to being at 18%, sanders in third then elizabeth warren. look at beto o'rourke not even running yet ahead of corey booker. then on the money, you have senator sanders who has a huge list he still has from 2016,

able to raise a huge amount of money in 24 hours. kamala harris the second most at $1.5 million, amy klobuchar and warren. do the numbers still tell us anything, particularly in a large field like this? >> yeah. first of all, i want to point out that what sara was talking about earlier about linking the international kleptocracy with kitchen table issues, that's something that senator warren has done since she launched. i mean last night i heard her in new hampshire and most of her speech was about her proposal for universal child care. and she linked that to the fact that you need universal child care because we're all gshs most of the wealth is being shoved upwards. i think there is a linkage to be made there and i think it's in the process. now as to what you -- as to the question you actually asked me, i think the one thing that hasn't been emphasized enough is the move of california to early

in the process. that's going to win over the field. because people are going to need a truckload of money to compete there. and i think by the time -- california is right up there at the beginning of the pro cess now. i think that that's going to be the money primary and you will see if it's a 20-person field, i think you're going to see that cut in half after california. >> yeah. you know i think -- and half that super tuesday primary is the south and a third of those delegates are california and texas. make of that what you will. kathie, the last word, everybody will be here, running, not running, eric holder was here, it's becoming a lot. at a certain point do iowans get fatigue and i think the mayor of new york city is here. do people start to seem like an also ran an addition that's one too many? >> yeah. well i mean iowans get weary and you've got kind of a split

vision about the iowa caucuses if you will. people who really love it and get involved and go to every candidate event and then people who are just dreading the ads and the phone calls and don't want really anything to do with it. the caucuses still attract a fairly small percentage of actual iowa voters because of the process. they've changed the process a little bit to make it more inclusive so more people will likely be involved. plus, candidates bring in more people. but i do think that is -- you know, right now for people like me, for political junkies this is like disneyland. the more candidates the better. let's have them here every weekend and we'll just enjoy the ride through the end of the year and the february caucuses. >> joyce, they have to come to south carolina. they can't just go to iowa. they have to come to south carolina. very important.

>> yeah. i think they know that because -- >> chamber of commerce down there. >> super tuesday a lot of black votes. >> what did you say? >> chamber of commerce down there -- >> jimmy. you better go get some brunch or something even though it's saturday. charlie pierce, shady. you will be back later in the show. thank you, kathie obradovich. charlie pierce, you get yourself a cocktail and sara kendzoir, thank you. one note before we go to break, i'm in iowa to interview senator and presidential kamala harris. you can see our conversation tomorrow on "am joy." coming up, the latest on actual election fraud in north carolina. that's next. after months of wearing only a tiger costume, we're finally going on the trip i've been promising. because with expedia,

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i love my dad and i love my mom. okay. i think they made mistakes in this process and they certainly did things differently than i would have done them and i will be frank, mr. chairman, watching all of this process unfold, we have got to come up with a way to transcend our partisan politics and the exploration of processes like this for

political gain, both parties, democrats and republicans. >> after that emotional testimony from his son, republican mark harris finally called for a new election for north carolina's ninth congressional seat. for months harris had aggressively defended himself against allegations of election fraud by his campaign and demanded that his slim victory in the midterms be recognized. after his reversal the election board voted unanimously to order a new election but after all that harris might not end up running due to health issues. according to nbc news, this is the first time in u.s. history that a new election has been called for a federal office because of election fraud. back with me, jimmy williams, joining us jed leggen, author and founder of popular.info. mark was defending himself to the end, points it wasn't clear he even knew the person who perpetrated the frauds and his son got on the stand and it changed. what happens now? is he likely to run? is there going to be any remedy

against him for this fraud? >> i think he's very unlikely to run here's why. his son's testimony, you played a clip, compelling and dramatic and essentially breaks down the idea harris had been talking about since the election that he didn't know anything about dallas or the fact that dallas was involved in illegal activities because his son was warning him, not just for weeks but years that dallas was trouble. the real problem and the reason i think he may not run again is that he was also exposed the fact that he did not turn over to the investigators, the e-mails that established these conversations with his sons and then was lying on the stand under cross-examination from the lawyer representing the democratic candidate, dan mccready, that he had told his younger son that he didn't expect those e-mails to come up. sort of knowingly withholding

information from the investigators. the combination of all of that it just looks too bad for him. i don't think harris will run, although he hasn't indicated definitively either way. >> okay. let's say he doesn't run. there's a guy named matthew dunlap who was main secretary of state and served on donald trump fictional and now defunct voter fraud commission, and he asked, where is the voter fraud crowd, the people who called crime and people like john smith vote in the same state f two people named john smith vote in the same state they don't have a lot to say. there are instances where people have gone to jail for inadvertent acts of what they called voter fraud. a woman in texas crystal mason serving five years in prison because she didn't know a felony conviction made her ineligible

to cast a ballot in 2016. it's a vestige of the post-civil war era designed to keep black people from exercising their rights under the 13th amendment. that lady is in prison but this guy lying about e-mails, associated with somebody now known to have perpetrated real election fraud, he's not in legal jeopardy? >> i think he is in legal jeopardy. a report that state investigators have subpoenaed the phone records and e-mails for dallas so obviously any communications between dallas and harris would be exposed there. the federal investigators are looking into it. his son is an assistant u.s. attorney which added a different wrinkle, kind of recused himself from that investigation, but there are multiple criminal shun investigations under way and the reason why harris after all these weeks say i give up, just hold another election, is the

proceedings in front of the north carolina election board was putting him in further legal jeopardy. we don't know for sure, but i think if i were harris i would be quite worried about what's to come. >> yeah. before i -- jimmy, before i have you comment on nate boring state's politics, one person who claims there is massive voter fraud who hasn't had a lot to say about the harris and mccray dallas situation, donald trump. >> why have you not condemned that giving you condemned -- >> i condemn any election fraud and when i look at what's happened in california with the votes, when i looked at what happened as you know just a case where they found a million fraudulent votes, when i look at what's happening -- >> there haven't been -- >> excuse me. when i look at what's happened in texas, florida, where the republican candidates kept getting less and less and less and rick scott and ron ended up winning their election, but

disgraceful what happened there -- >> just so that we're not complicit in putting out disinformation, donald trump does this, where he says excuse me and says things that aren't true and put them on the record. there was no million people found of committing voter fraud in california. he makes things up. i want to throw that out there. we know there's been shenanigans in the southern states that had to be cured with the voting rights act because of the tricks to try to reduce african-americans access to the ballot. this is very egregious and now on the record, it's been found, caught, what happens? >> what happened was the supreme court of the united states struck down title 3 of the voting rights act and basically what they -- they took away a safeguard, a speed bump if you will for criminals like this guy in north carolina. basically before that, the department of justice, the civil rights division, had to clear maps and voting patterns and you were following the law and not

disenfranchising people of color when they went to cast their ballots. that's gone because the chief justice of the united states thinks there is no longer racism in america. like he almost practically wrote that in his decision. now that we know it's gone we've lost that backstop that one speed bump that would stop criminals like this awful guy in north carolina from doing things like, you know, absentee ballot vote tampering. the bigger problem is that means that the field is just wide open now. if you don't think it's not wide open go to any of these states -- i hope investigative journalists across the country will start zeroing in as we get closer to 2020, on what's happening in these local and county voter places because i think that's where you're going to find more of this stuff. the guy in north carolina, he actually said, i live in a thousand square foot house, i'm not wealthy and i draw social security. because we're supposed to think he's a stupid country bumkin,

yet he's been doing this in north carolina for years. which means why aren't -- the new york -- i'm sorry the north carolina attorney general, he should go and look at every race that guy has ever worked on, subpoena all the e-mails from every one of those races and i bet you're going to find a consistent pattern here. then replicate that across the country especially in southern states. so we have a bigger problem here which is the supreme court thinks that we don't have racists in this country and guess what, we found one. he lives in north carolina. >> yeah. >> there are more of him all over the country. >> there's been an important ruling in north carolina on the favor of voting rights, we should note that, a federal court has overturned some of the shenanigans that had to do with gerrymandering and things like that. a good point this is going to be up to investigative journalism to fair this out. we don't have a department of justice that has an interest and the supreme court has said it's not real. >> yeah. i mean, i think that's really the way that this was exposed

piece by piece from the documents obtained by investigative journalists and great investigative journalism on the ground going to the homes of the people who were part of mccray dallas' operation and getting them to essentially admit exactly what they were doing and although these folks were getting paid, you know, $50, $25, to go and illegally harvest ballots, mccray dallas, who is at the top of the pyramid did get paid $140,000 over a period of months to do this operation and this isn't the only campaign he's worked on. he may be living in a 1,000 square foot apartment but seems to be doing pretty well for himself at least until he was exposed. i think there's a lot more going on and races that could have been impacted and this is the tip of the iceberg. >> i'm sure it is.

jimmy williams, judd legum, thank you. coming up, conservatives desperate effort to tie corey booker and kamala harris to jussie smollett. that's next. jussie smollett. that's next. guys do whatever it takes to deal with shave irritation. so, we re-imagined the razor with the new gillette skinguard. it has a unique guard between the blades. that's designed to reduce irritation during the shave. because we believe all men deserve a razor just for them. the best a man can get. gillette. the only network to win in all four major awards is the one more people rely on.

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tune in to "am joy" tomorrow for my one-on-one interview with senator kamala harris here in iowa as we discuss how she plans to stand out in an already crowded presidential field of democrats. and coming up next, the latest on the jussie smollett scandal. l

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cling to this narrative with a political death grip. what do they have to do without it? >> when it comes to jussie this could have been a race riot. when you talk about -- >> exactly. >> they attacked me because i was black, threw bleach on me, attacked me because i was gay, this is maga country, people already on the edge when they wake up in the morning, all they need is something to set them off. >> the jussie smollett case has become the right's favorite story as they use it to claim victimhood for all things maga. the "empire" star charged on thursday with disorderly conduct for allegedly filing a false police report claiming he suffered a racist and homophobic attack last month. smollett's alleged falsehoods may have opened the floodgates on the right to dismiss claims of hate crimes. ann coulter tweeted all right, this particular hate crime turned out to be a hoax but let's remember all of them are

hoaxes. joining me, john, linguistics professor at columbia university and jonathan capehart for the "washington post" and friend of the show. let me go to you, john, i want to make sure i do our due gill generals and read the statement from jussie smollett's lawyers that says the presumption of innocence a bed rock in the search for justice was trampled on and on the eve of a mayoral election he maintains his innocence and feels betrayed by a system that wants to skip due process and proceed to sentencing. john, you wrote a piece in the atlantic which talked about what you call victimhood chic. the smollett story if the trajectory leads to evidence of fakery it would actually reveal something else, modern america is about which is victimhood chic. futures will find this aspect of 21st american sad. what is victimhood chic?

>> there's such thing as victimhood and racism and homophobia and real things. i worry that if we get to the point that we treat smoking those things out as almost a kind of religion even beyond pragmatism it ends up becoming a way of thought and this is what i think is going on with smollett, that being a victim of bigotry or homophobia is the most interesting thing about you. i worry because i think that creates a new kind of conda sense or new kind of self-hatred. with john mccain he was tortured. we think of that about one tenth of what he was. whereas with somebody like smollett, he's the star of a hit show and on his way to other things but in his mind being the victim of bigotry was a way of becoming more interesting, a larger figure. he's just drinking that in from his times, but i think that sense that victimhood is not just a problem, but that it

becomes the most interesting thing about you, is something that i think we've gotten kind of used to but in terms of human history it is a peculiar way to think about being hurt. >> you know what's interesting you say that, when i read your column i thought you could apply what you're saying in a sense to the way that the right is approaching this matter in the sense that this is an opportunity to say that really maga is being victimized and sort of play out we're being attacked and therefore they, too, are embroiled in the same thing, no? >> yeah. i mean i think that the way that the right has addressed this is absolutely disgusting. i don't think that maga needs to be defended when talking about the violent aspects of it. if you voted for trump and waiting for a mythical america to come back it doesn't make a slobbering big goth necessarily, but the right making the idea that anybody who is concerned with racism and homophobia is somebody who is automatically

crying wolf or needs to get with the times or get over it that is frankly low i.q. thought as far as i'm concerned, that's ban whole others aspect of this that makes me very uncomfortable. >> yeah. you know, jonathan, not even just saying that, you know, if you say this, say anything that includes maga in it that actually they are the victims and that the real racism is people disagreeing with donald trump, right. >> right. >> or saying that this is an opportunity. you've had fundraising already happen, the trump super pac is now fundraising off of the smollett case and he's -- and the quote, who helped him try to get away with it? the liberal fake news media 2020 democrats, harris, booker, gillibrand who pushed a hate crime the fake news will only get worst. the president will need your full support and donate here. you know who one of the people is who originally said how horrible this alleged hate crime was?

let's play him right now. >> before i get started. >> wait. that's not it. >> yeah. that wasn't it. let's go to cut five. >> that i can tell you is horrible. i've seen it. last night. i think that's horrible. it doesn't get worse. as far as i'm concerned. >> i mean, jonathan, donald trump even came in and said exactly the same thing people on the left said when this first happened. >> right. the president's superlative at it again. look, joy, the height of irony to have president trump make any kind of comment about jussie smollett before we found out that it was an alleged hoax and thin he tweeted against him when it came out. the reason why so many people were so quick to believe jussie smollett and what he said and his version of events before they all unraveled was because

that man who you just played, feeds into and actually stokes the atmosphere of menace and insecurity that millions of americans feel across this country. whether they are people of color, lbgtq, trans, immigrants, dreamers, you just go down the list there are people in this country who every day feel that their very existence and own security is at stake and so, you know, the president's super pac, right wingers, far right, conservatives who are using the jussie smollett situation to rhetorically bash people who are afraid for their own existence and their own lives, you know, is really despicable. as we are talking about this and as that story was unraveling on friday all of us awoke to the story of hasson, the guy at the coast guard, self-proclaimed

white supremacist who had a cache of weapons, you talked about it at the top of the show, had a cache of weapons and a list of politicians and journalists he wanted to target and to kill. this what is we're talking about. this is what i'm talking about when i mention the atmosphere of menace. we're not making this stuff up. that man right there was targeting america. if he had been successful it would have been one of the more horrific moments in american history and this is the second time, joy, we're talking about a white supremacist targeting politicians and journalists. don't forget what happened late last year when that person who was an avowed follower supporter of president trump was thwarted in his pipe bombs that were actually delivered through the u.s. mail. this is a very real thing no matter what ann coulter wants americans to believe. >> i just worry a little bit -- >> john -- >> joy, i was going to say all of that is absolutely true. this kind of hatred is real. i just worry that sometimes

we're taught to make it our defining trait. certainly i'm not talking about being killed or something like that. but the idea that somebody -- >> absolutely. but -- >> express bigotry against you should not become what our race is or what an individual is. that just worries me a little bit. >> yeah. but what also worries me i have to say, john, is people on the right get very offended when someone ties a lieutenant hasson to trumpism even though he's saying poco warren, using trump and going after people he sees as trump's enemies people say but wait that is connected to trump's rhetoric but you have people on the far right trying to say that kamala harris, because jussie smollett mother's maiden name is harris is his aunt or trying to say she introduced the an tir lynching bill as a setup to be involved in a deep conspiracy to stage the jussie smollett case, we're

already at the place now where people on the far right and james wood, the actor, are tweeting out, that individual democrats colluded with jussie smollett. we've gone down a rabbit hole. >> some people under the impression that drawing lines between dots like that and clever ways that make people jump and are fun to follow like a tv show, is a form of enlightenment or intelligence. those people will always be be with us. so i'm not sure that that can be stopped. it's quite pathetic. let's face it if smollett hadn't been lying, then this would have been a truly horrific thing and it would have been a symbol of things going on in the country and that's something that those far rightists have forgotten, instead trying to make political scores and to get off on fake cleverness. it's a tragedy if you ask me. >> i love talking with you guys. john and jonathan, thank you very much. appreciate your time.

>> thank you. >> coming up, democrats try to stop donald trump's fake emergency. that's next. emergency. that's next. when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums smoothies. it neutralizes stomach acid at the source. ♪tum tum tum tum smoothies. also available tums sugar-free. guys go through a lot to deal with shave irritation. so, we built the new gillette skinguard with a specialized guard designed to reduce it. because we believe all men deserve a razor just for them. the best a man can get. gillette. with expedia, i saved when i added a hotel to our flight. so even when she grows up, she'll never outgrow the memory of our adventure. unlock savings when you add select hotels to your existing trip. only with expedia.

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it's nothing more than a campaign applause line for the president in one of his speeches. we will be fighting him on this use -- usurping of power of violating the constitution of the united states in the congress, in the courts and with the american people. >> house speaker nancy pelosi will make good on her promise tuesday when the house votes on a resolution to block donald trump's emergency declaration which he issued to seize funding that congress did not authorize to try and build a border wall he promised that mexico would pay for. the resolution to block the declarations is expected to pass the house easily. and in the senate, demes need to pick up only four republican votes to pass it there. that would fall short of veto proof majority. so ar fat least 16 republican senators have expressed concerns over trump's emergency declaration and another five opposed it out right. joining me is republican strategist indicate condition dawson. friend of the show.

we have 16 republicans on record having concerns about this idea of usurping the power of the purse and taking it for the white house. strong little against. how many votes would you estimate as a gop strategist the resolution will get in the senate? >> well, i'll even get past that because i think most of the 16 that are in question, the five that are there, all understand that there's not the ability to override a presidential veto. and when i've been looking at talking points i'm seeing out there now that the constitutionality of it and the ability for the president to do this which 1976, the emergency powers act was passed, 1979, 58 have been granted. 31 are still in place. there's a lot of conversation that can go on that i think is probably going to benefit the president politically inside of his base, joy. so at the end of the day, i don't see any way there's the ability to override a

presidential veto. and i think the heat's starting to turn up on republican senators in places that trump is very popular to be very careful on how they -- how they vote and how had he handle this issue. it is a base issue. i will agree with that. it is a complete base issue, but i think, joy, the politics are probably pretty good for the president on this issue especially if it stays an issue for months and months and months. that's how i see it. >> but at the same time, it's also a constitutional issue, right? what essentially the base of the republican party is demanding that senators reduce their own power. they essentially neuter the senate itself for donald trump. that's an unusual place for people to be. lindsey graham you will not be surprised, you know lindsey graham quite well is 100% for donald trump and the declination of his own power as a united states senator. all the states are saying not so fast. lawsuits are suing to stop. you can see the map.

those won't surprise you, those are more states not trump states. are there republicans who are going to live to regret that their legacy, including lindsey graham, becomes attacking the power of the article 1 branch in which they serve just for donald trump? >> i don't think so because i think there's an explanation on this issue i have already heard from the stump of how the constitution originally didn't address this is specific issue, how they did in 1976 gerald ford signed into law. i think there's a procedure there to do it, but in politics, the voters don't really get that deep into the procedure. this is an issue that's going to end up being about illegal immigration and whether you believe we have illegal immigration problem, whether you believe we have a problem at the southern border, and it was really, joy, as you and i discussed before, that we had 16 people in a primary against donald trump. and his number one issue was

this, and he beat all of them. and now we've reversed things and i'm watching the democrats come through south carolina right now and they're going to end up with 16 or 18. i tell my friends on the democratic side, welcome to my world in the past of having to wade through 16 people to find the nominee. so the it's going to be a conversation that's going to be political but remember, all politics are local. and i have seen what this immigration issue does in base politics and it mobilizes both sides. and i've watched it to a fault on how it works. i also go back to the way this presidential thing is unpacking right now and took a look, and bill clinton won with 43% of the vote, george bush 38% of the vote. so donald trump's looking in a popularity issue of keeping his basin tact. he's being pretty smart here. >> and you know, i have to say, katon, the thing sad for a lot of people and nobody can refute

what you're saying about the base politics but there's a bigger issue is the constitution. it is in the constitution that it says no money shall be appropriated but by the congress of the united states. it's the article 1 power. but republicans are just looking at what their base believes and they're scared of them. i think you have not lied about that. that is very true. katon dawson, we'll see how it goes and come back to you to see what's happening in south carolina. more "am joy" after the break. carolina more "am joy" after the break. . ( ♪ ) so, every day, we put our latest technology and vast expertise to work. ( ♪ ) the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, affordably and on-time. (ringing) ( ♪ ) the future only happens with people who really know how to deliver it. the future only happens hey, who are you? oh, hey jeff, i'm a car thief...

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