i sat down with the breakfast club and we went deeper talking about barack obama, his relationship to hip-hop and their rebut tool fox news attacks on their interview with kamala harris. you can hear all of it on our new podcast on apple. it's on youtube. type in "the beat" with ari and the breakfast club. we're out of time. "hardball" starts right now. >> top secret clearance. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. chris will be back from his vacation maenld night. tonight though we continue to follow the explosive news that president trump reportedly lied about how jared kugszner received his security clearance. four people briefed on the

matter told "new york times" that quote trump ordered his chief of staff to grant security clearance. over ruling concerns flagged by officials and the top lawyer. it was so alarming to chief of, john kelly that he wrote a memo about how he had been oordered to give his clearance. and mcgahn outlined concerns the krr cia had as well as his own recommendation it be rejected. kushner was granted permanent clearance after the completion of the fbi background check with no involvement from the president. earlier that year john kelly had limited kushner's access to the most snsative secrets because according to the "washington post" he was uncomfortable with

kushner's interim security status. president trump backed that decision. >> that will be up to general cell a. he respects jared a lot and general kelly will make that call. i will threat general, who's right here, make that call. >> u.s. intelligence officials had flagged a number of concerns to the white house like reports foreign intelligence officials from the unite arab emirates, mexico and israel were privately discussing ways they could manipulate kushner. and two unreported transition meetings with a russian ambassador and a head of a russian state-owned bank. the russian-related contangts were of particular interest to robert mueller and his team. by kushner's own lawyer and his

wife, ivanka trump. >> there were anonymous leaks about there being issues. b but the president had no involvement pertaining to my clearance or my husband's clearance. >> the house oversight committee launched an investigations into the white house security clearance process. and today the chairman of that committee threatened to supoon a athe white house for documents related to its subpoena protocol. i'm joined by democrat from virginia and a member of the house committee. former deputy chief of staff to the deputy attorney general and nbc news intelligence. and vice president of the national security program. thank you all for being with us. first of all these memos that are being reported from mcgahn and from kelly, have you confirmed -- has your committee

been able to confirm at this moment they still exist somewhere? >> no, we have not. which is one of the reasons we're seeking documents and cooperation from the white house. try to get their individual cooperation with the committee and ask them to produce those memos. >> conversations, communication between your committee and the white house. elijah cummings is sending to the white house. he makesrapherence to making efforts to pursue this privately, to not go public with this and so forth. have they been cooperative lat? has there been explanation? >> no, they've completely stone walled these requests. and by the way our concern about security clearances preedates this incident by over a year. we've been concerned about the

interim security clearances. and you remember there was great puzzlement as to how mr. porter, guilty of domestic violence get any kind of security clearance and otherwise. so this is not the first time or the first time we've tried to get documentation about process and issues. we knew there were issues with jared kushner now we know how bad they really were. i believe mr. cummings indicated in today letter this is your final warning and after that we will resort to other legal means. >> and you ilewded to this a minute ago. if there's a subpoena issue at the same time, would you be reaching aught to them? >> i think certainly with general kelly there could be an

opportunity for voluntary compliance. because obviously he was bothered enough about the nature of the security clearance and the fact the president lied and told him to overturn that negative recommendation and grant anyhow, that he felt the need to memorialize >> again, a member of the house oversight committee where this all may be coming to a head very soon. >> my great pleasure. >> and ken delaney, right now at this moment what can you tell us about the status of jared kushner inside the white house? what kind of access does he enjoy right now? >> my understanding is he hold as top secret clearance but not that gives him access to sensitive information.

it allows you access to krrbs ia source reporting and nsa intercepts. the cia never did grant that higher level of clearance, we're told. but because of the president's orders, the white house security office did grant him a top secret clearance even though members had recommended gnsz doing that based on the fbi background check. there's two processes here. both the fbi and krrcia flagged significant concerns and it can be mitigated. but there was no such mitigation in this case. does he still have these issues? is he still subject to foreign influence? and the other issue is the lives. >> when you say potential for influence, we go tlau the headlines but specifically what are the kinds of thijs that are

setting off alarm bells there? >> obviously he's got a sprawling real state empire with foreign countries. only recently his major investment on fifth avenue got huge infusion of cash associate would a wealth fund. these are potential avenues of foreign influence on him. a concern that anyone would norm vale to mitigate. and let's go back to the beginning. he didn't fill out his initial security clearance form correctly. for a normal applicant, that would essentially you'd be done. so he got lot of special treatment here. >> take us through, for folks just hearing about the security clearance process in the executive branch for the first time, it's one of these things with the trump administration, all these different areas of government that don't get a lot

of attention day to day. this is one of them. take us through typically how this process would work for somebody in jared kushner's position? >> yes, suddenly clearance is hot in washington and around the country. one of the things ib can tell you from have worked at doj and served as an employment lawyer in term oz of dealing with people trying to come work that department and sometimes having hiccups in their background and what happens is vers are on the ground looking into your foreign contacts, into your neighborhood, former employers. they're trying to run down any issues that could impact your ability to be trusted. so what happens is the investigators sort of dig up anything there is on you and then they present it to career

officials whose job day in and day out is to evaluate across the board the types of issues that every day people have. and they then take those evaluations and recommend whether they see no issue and you have a national security access and having top secret clearance or they raise red flags. and it's incumbent upon the agency to make the call. here we know there was some dispute. and usually when there's dispute, frankly, we're on the side of not granting the clearance. >> sally yates, whom trump fired 10 days into the presidency tweeted hard to know which is more dangerous. jeopardizing our national security information or cavalierly lieuing about it. have we lost our ability to be

shocked? we have the public comments from trump. the verasty of those comments being called into question by this reporting. but in terms of the law, the procedure, has the power toishau a security clearance. >> the president is the ultimate classification authority. he can decide who sees what information. the real challenge is presidents have always looked out for the national interest and tried to prevent people who could be compromised from having access to that information and they're very concerned about leaks. about people who take it on to themselves to take that information out there and they're concerned about peopdecn mocking could be suede on behalf

of foreign interests. >> if trump sdruz the right, the power do do this. if it's not a legal thing where lee did it in a court of law, what's tlr end game? >> this is more of an issue of political norms. the president has the authority to shut down a justice department investigation as well. most presidents don't even comment on justice department investigations. we can find no precedent of a president ever ruling a establishment. sources told us they had never seen their own work over ruled by supervisor in the white house office. generally the career specialists get to make these decisions so theprocess has integrity. and wevy new statement from jared kushner's lawyer who said that time kushner got his

clearance by the book. he's now saying he, mr. lowell, was not aware that the president had intervened. speaking for himself and not his client, which i find interesting. >> that is an interesting twist. the prosability that the house oversight committee will put a subpoena saying hand these documents over, the prospects oof the house committee being able to compel the white house to do this. what are the prospects? >> certainly there's always a give and take between the white house and congress in terms of what kinds of documents they're willing to turn over. i would expect this to be a hard fight because it goes to the core of the trump family. and i expect house oversight is go having to to go other routes to get what they need and that may be looking at john kelly and

getting it dr getting it directly from him. >> and this changes our understanding of whautsz been going on behind the scenes. because the reporting when kushner had been okayed for a security clearance, in a lot of people's minds put to rest about being compromised and those sorts of things. >> i think that was a little people are kwhr you look at the financial entanglements that the kushner family had. i think the idea be eput to ris without real blind trust i think was over stating the case. but what we saw earlier this week is how exactly the president gives these kinds of instructions to people where, he repeats what he wants. he give as meaningful look, expects orders to be followed. so when he says i didn't do this, he expect everyone to fall

line even though we know he did. >> thank you all for joining us. frqtsz and coming up the growing witness list. congress wants answers from the man who knows the trump organization's finances and a blistering statement saying now we must speak out. and after a week of setbacks from president trump, one person on his mind is former fixer, michael cohen. how damaging was that cohen testimony this week? got lot to get to. got lot to get to. with venus, you're in charge of how your skin feels. so, when the world expects you to follow the rules, write your own. ♪ because no one gets an opinion on how you live your life,

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there are other people that we should be meeting with. >> so allen weiszingbering.

>> in the office with me was allen weisselberg. allen weisselberg made the decision. the bottom signature i believe is allen weisselberg's. that's signed by weisselberg. weisselberg for sure. allen weisselberg. weisselberg. but always allen wusalbering on the check. >> repeatedly implicating allen weisselberg in the scheme to cover up elicit hush money pay offs in the campaign. cohen identified weisselberg by saying his name more than 20 times and he's come under increased scrutiny. his value can't be understated. his former trump campaign manager said in his recent book quote weisselberg knows of every

dime that leaves the building. he already received partial immunity last summer on testimony to silence women. according to cohen it was weisselberg who devised the plan to make the payment to stormy daniels. he said that scheme represented a criminal conspiracy. >> are you telling us, mr. cohen, that the president directed in conspiracy with allen weisselberg and his son, donald trump jr. as part of a criminal conspiracy of financial fraud? is that your testimony here today? >> yes. >> the house intelligence committee now intends to call weisselberg to testify. the democrats on the house ways

and means committee are drafting a a letter to the irs. former senior fbi official. and president of the american constitution society and natasha is a staff writer at the atlantic. allen weisselberg, 45 years around the trump family business empire. the interesting thing to me is when you look at the circle of people around trump, in some way you see them. he's managed to stay close to trump and entirely behind the scenes for more than four decades. talk about the rel he plays in trump's world and what he would potentially be in a position to shine a light on. >> he's apparently obsessively private and how he's managed to escape all the scrutiny. it's also a very small organization in terms of the

amount of people that work there. so he was ableb to have this ability into virt everything that the trump oorganization did. when donald trump jr. said that russian assets and money makes up a disproportionate amount of their assets, allen weisselberg is in a position to tell congress whether that's actually true. when we talk about the sudden spending of millions in cash to buy certain properties, where did that money come from? how did he insert $200 million into his scottish golf courses that were failing? all things that allen weisselberg could potentially answer. he could say this money potentially came from a foreign entity. this money was used in an elicit manner. whether he's going to testify

unless he gets immunity because he could be part of these crimes, is another question. >> ifs thereler sorts of things and he might be able to connect the dots on if there's anything there and would he be willing to answer any questions on those fronts? >> i think congress is certainly going to put the questions to him. hard to know how he's going to get out of coming up before those committees and talking about what he knows. i think the committees learn very clearly that it seems like the trump organization is a criminal enterprise and to get to the bottom of this they're going to need follow the money the one who knows where the money is allen weisselberg. >> seems like he was thinking about voluntarily appear and say everything he said.

what would prevent him from showing up and pleading the fifth? >> he's already cooperating with the southern district of new york. i think he knows he's got a lot of liability out there and it's very possible and he's been involved in the role he played in these fraujial assets. he's got a lot at stake and i think the prosecutors have a fair amount over him. corroborating with the committees as well may be in his interest. >> if congress is interested, is there a concern if you're congress and there's the idea of granting some kind of immunity

to get him to talk, does that potentially limit? that limit the ability of prosecutors to take any actions? >> i will tell you anytime you can turn the cfo of an organization, whether it's a small mom and pop or a large publicly traded company, the cfo is a gold mine. so here he's a potentially very valuable witness for congress and prosecutors. there has to be a certain amount of deconfliction to maximize his value for both investigations. >> another witness set to testify now felix sater, a russian-born trump business

associate. and according to multiple reports, sater pleaded guilty in the late '90s to stock fraud in connection with a russian mafia. and a 2013 deposition trump notably down played his association to sater, saying he barely knew him. >> if he were sitting in the room right now i really wouldn't know what he looked like. >> cohen testified that president did know sater well enough to give him an office in trump tower. >> isn't it true president trump knew convicted russian mobster felix sater when he made that statement? >> yes. >> isitant true because of mr. sater's relationship to the trump organization that he had an office in the trump tower? >> and on the 26th floor. >> and that's important why? >> because it's mr. trump's

floor. >> isn't it true that president trump misled, at best, or worst, lied under oath? >> yes. >> and so look this question of sater the trump tower deal. co cohen pleaded guilty to lying to congress. what could sater -- what light could he shed? >> where to begin? it's a completely open secret. and they've told me he has the office on the 26th floor. he had a standing meeting every week. and i think that he could probably speak to the extent that negotiations actually went on and it's another corroborating witness to what michael cohen has told the committee. he's not the most credible person in the world but when you call felix sater before the panel and can him to describe

all the efforts to pursue this deal with russian contacts. and you ask him tago into that in detail and i think he would be willing to do that because he's not in the trump camp at the moment. his allegiance is with whoever can help him avoid future trouble and cohen can gain credibility by the credibility that he can provide. and the eastern district of virginia appears to be an attack on robert mueller. quote special counsel's attempt to villify him is beyond the pail. special counsel's conspreading misinformation. what's manafort's team up to?

having filed and read many such filings. look, the mueller report, mueller filing -- we haven't seen the report yet. was pretty hard. it was no holds barred. and i think for good reason based on what we know about the case and his lack of cooperation. perhaps something to gain by taking a swing at the special counsel. a very, very tough sentencing for mr. manafort. >> thank you all for being with us. and up next the governor of washington state. what can he do to stand out in a very tight presidential field? he's running for president. he said so today.

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hi, governor, what do you have to say about climate change? >> a lot. >> i'm jay insly and i'm running for president because i'm the only candidate that will make

defeating climate change our nation's number one priority. >> another day, another new candidate for president. you heard it right there. jay insley. democratic governor of washington state. he's running for president. he join as very long, by this point, list of democratic candidates and not only is he part of a long list of candidates, but if you take a look at morning consult. you're used to seeing biden in first, sanders in second. you're used to seeing all of these names. but go through all the usual suspects and what is this? a nine-way tie with 1%. below them, jay insley, i believe 19th place. not well known, ton of competition.

he's greing to really focus on climate change. we'll see if it gets traction. 23r it raise as question. anyone at 1%, 2%. the folks at the back of the pack, the potential dark horses. the ones that want to go from worst to first? how often does that happen? we're used to seeing folks that start out with a real base of support like hillary clinton. how often does it work the it other way that somebody comes from nowhere? there are a couple of examples. early on in the 1972 democratic race. not everybody ended up running. but this guy, george mcgovern ended up being the democratic nominee and of course didn't do so well in the general election. 1976. one of the first polls we saw

from gallop george wallace, hubert humphrey. all the way down the list and there he is. jimmy carter from plains, jj jj. he went from worst to first and won the presidency. in 1988 michael dukakis was a democratic nominee. what really helped dukakis, thiguy up here, gary hart imploded in scandal, threw the race wide open. and 1992 all the big name democrats stayed out. they thought george bush sr was invincible. on the republican side, one example, most recent. our poll on the eve of donald trump 's campaign announcement he was at 1% in our poll and he

over came this field won the republican nomination and might be reason why so many are looking at the democratic field and saying why not me? if trump could get to the top, maybe i could too. up next between cohen's public testimony and a bipartisan back lash. it was a tough week for president trump but when the dust settles, can we expect anything will change politically? it's coming up next. politically? it's coming up next. -their béarnaise sauce here is the best in town. [ soft piano music playing ] mm, uh, what do you do for fun? -not this. ♪ -oh, what am i into? mostly progressive's name your price tool. helps people find coverage options based on their budget. flo has it, i want it, it's a whole thing, and she's right there. -yeah, she's my ride. this date's lame. he has pics of you on his phone. -they're very tasteful.

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welcome back to "hardball." this one has been particularly rough for the president. the house voted to terminate his national emergency at the southern border. that sets the stage for what could be a similar rebuke from

the senate and maybe the first presidential veto. and michael cohen opening the possibility of new congressional investigations and trump's summit with north korea's kim jong-un went nowhere. the self-described deal maker and chief conceded he had to walk away. they asked for the lifting of all sanctions. but noting kim wanted economic sanctions removed but did not ask for the removal of all sanctions on armament. and the president drew criticism for defending the north korean dictator over the death of american college student otto warmbier. that he felt bad and takes kim at his word that he didn't know. warmbier's parents said we have been respectful during the summit process. now we must speak out. kim and his evil regime are

responsible for the death of our son, otto. they're responsible for unimaginable cruelty. no excuses or lavishing praise can change that. but president trump gave a clear indication of what part of his very bad week got under his skin the most. we'll tell you what that is straight ahead. l tell you what straight ahead

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as far as we're concerned,

he's convicted. and because he lied so much. he might as well lie about that one too. but he said no collusion and everybody said no collusion. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump reacting to michael cohen's scathing testimony to congress. president came back empty handed from the summit with kim jong-un. and spent much of his time raging about testimony. accusing cohen of trying to write a secret manuscript. shows he committed perjury on a scale not seen before. joined by a democratic strategist and a fellow at

harvard institute of politics. and a senior writer at national review. we've reached the end of the week. we're trying to make sense of everything we saw. i want to go over the politics. the plutical reality that emerges. and let me start with you on the question of democrats in congress. politically do they emerge with enough togo forward with impeachment if that's what they were looking toing do? >> yeah. what ecohen did is showed up with reseats for all the anecdotes. he showed up with evidence a trail that leads us to being able to ask more questions that if they said we want to formally start impeachment proceedings the point to open a formal investigation to be able to get to the heart of the heart of the things donald trump is hiding

and what i believe this hearing did with cohen is not only did he produce initial evidence but if you listen on the democrat's line of questioning, they were able to pull out names like allen weisselberg and others and to start to ask questions about trump's tax returns that teed up the opportunity to follow ulon some of the conversation started at this hearing. so whether they politically feel like they're in a place to formally call it impeachment proceedings and start that process what ye process what we're going to see is what umpeachment would provide. >> clearly the folks on that committee -- i won't say they were interested in defending trump but they were interested in attacking the guy going after trump. what did republicans take away in terms of how they view this president and the sense of peril around him? >> i think republicans very clearly are more afraid of the

southern district of new york than congressional democrats. again we've not had the mueller report, not had the full completion of the new york investigations. but it democrats moved on impeachment right now at this point, it would be an over reach a political over reach at a time when the president is on his heels, quite frankly. but if you talk to republicans right now, they are far more concerned about what's coming out of manhattan and that southern district perhaps than the mueller report itself. >> that's an interesting question. o cohen gave democrats plenty of amian ugz on the question of trump's character and moral fitness, if you want to call it that. i do wonder in terms of fuelling an impeachment drive.

the fact heicize i have no evidence of collusion. i have no proof he ordered he to lie. i've never been in progin my life and all this talk of the dossier. that's blow to the dossier. did that deprive democrats of some of the fuel they would need for an impeachment push. >> we've been focussed on the singular idea that collusion is the only thing donald trump is doing wrong. what impeachment proceedings would allow to happen and we need to understand trump's finances. we need to know if he's using this office for the benefit of hum and his family, as opposed to the been if the of the people of the united states. we need to understand if he is even fit to do this job. there are a lot of questions that we need to understand about

this trump administration and how it is or isn't in the best benefit of the united states that go beyond for sure just russia and that's what we're starting to get to with this character conversation and the financial transactions the shadeiness. he's literally being shown to act like a mobster the way he conducts himself with the people he works with. and michael cohen brought some reseats to start to take us there a little but. and now i think it's important for the american people to understand who this is in the white house. and if he actually working unour best interest and that's not simply that singular collusion. >> the chairman, jerry nadler told the "new york times" quote yes, we have unambiguous evidence the president committed a crime. do i couldn't we have unambiggious information for

impeachable offenses? and >> if you're asking me today if it seems more likely that the president could be removed based on what we know than it was tuesday? i thunk the answer to that is yes. >> let me ask you about -- i think what he might be alluding to is the issue of campaign finance violation. felony was committed to conseal an extra marital affair. nadler was there when clinton got impeached to consealing an extramarital fair. house about republicans 20 years ago who said that is grounds for impeachment. will they be there saying the same thing? >> you will see a complete flip-flop.

and i think the very fact of that dramatic flip-flop, the very fact that republicans would say wait a minute, wasn't this litigated in 1998 and these kinds of sxual indiscretions even if federal crimes are not sufficient? you're going to see waters muddy being a no on clinton, a yes on trump. the only thing we'd be sure of is that hypocrisy abound. and i think that's why you've seen them exercise a note of cautions. and i think that's smart because there's rar presidential election just next year. >> a year and a half away. and thank you both for joining us. and upx int how much will memories of 2016 impact bernie sanders in 2020? t bernie sanders in 2020? i really didn't expect to learn

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so call today and consider these numbers: for just $149 you'll receive five screenings that could reveal what your body isn't telling you. i'm gonna tell you that was the best $150 i ever spent in my life. life line screening. the power of prevention. call now to learn more. we're hearing about a lot of democratic candidates meeting for advice. do you suspect you'll do the same? >> look, we have differences. hillary has played a very important role in modern american politics. >> but you're not interested in any advice from her? >> i thin not.

>> not interested with sitting down with the woman who bested him in the prime ars. so the frostiness may be mutual. make no mistake there is unresolved tension between sanders, clunt clinton and their most loyal supporters. this in the wake of this story that featured clinton campaign staffers who said he acted like a prima donna. that he demanded provet flights to campaign against donald trump. i'm not shocked that while thousands braved the heat and cold to knock on doors until their fingers bled build in a desperate effort to stop donald trump, his royal majesty would only deign to leave his plush d.c. office or second home on the lake if he was flown around onkush canny private jet luke a billionaire master of the universe.

sanders, known for flying coach, said he only flew private in 2016 when there was no other option. the spokesperson quote you can see why she's one of the most disliked politicians unamerica. she's not nice. her people are not nice. at the root of this there are people who blame sanders, at least in part for her defeat against donald trump. they say he stayed too long, it got too nasty, that he did too little to heal that wounds. sanders and his allies point to the 17 events that he did for hillary in the final week of that campaign, for instance. and the question is whether this will cost sanders this time around. how deep do sentiments go with democratic voters? polling suggests may not be that deep. 75% to 15% unflavorable.

those aren't very different from joe biden's. the real question may be influence. the activists. will thaw raise their voices loudly to try to stop them and if they do, will democratb voices listen to them? chris will boo back here monday night. and "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> as far as cohen is concerned, he's convicted, he's a liar. >> liing about a liar's lying continues. >> he told me at least a dozen times he made the decision on the payments and he didn't tell you. >> yeah. >> the president had no involvement. >> the president's destabilizing assault on reality. >> every