o'rourke team up, where biden hard who married very well, it's would run for the presidency and my daughter ivanka. name in esense beto o'rourke as i stole her husband. the vic he is so great. if you can't produce peace in ones to watch in a field that the middle east, nobody can. every day becomes more exciting okay? for the democratic party. >> let me ask you about that, all my life, i've been hearing tara. you worked in politics for a that's the toughest deal in the world to make and i've seen it, minute. but i have a feeling that jared it feels like this cycle is so much about the power of black is going to do a great job. women voters and the power of >> all righty. good morning. welcome to "a.m. joy." young voters. that was the first kind of would a ticket with two white strange thing we heard about male candidates on it to be jared kushner. donald trump's son-in-law at the time of trump's inauguration. blunt, joe biden and a beto namely that trump was putting o'rourke, would that work in that kind of an environment? >> i don't think white generate kushner who has zero foreign the same level of excitement policy experience in charge of solving the crisis in the middle that you would see if there's a woman on the ticket in east. next, we learned about 666 5th particular a black woman on the ticket or a woman of color on the ticket period. avenue, the billion dollars i think the democratic voters headache that kushner created want to see a woman on the for his family's real estate business for which he owed a lot ticket. i will tell you why. i think one of the points that we as democrats need to make of money. that he reportedly was hunting very clearly is it's not about for in the middle east. diversity for diversity sake. later in 2017, kushner raised it is about the fact that women more eyebrows when he slipped have historically been

overlooked despite how qualified off to saudi arabia and the white house refused to tell the they have been in business and public who he met with at a time in politics. when kushner was becoming bff i think that's a point we need to continue to drill home. this is not about -- because people, what conservatives want with the saudi crown prince to do is paint diversity as giving someone an opportunity muhammad bin salman. all that time jared kushner held a very high security clearance who is undeserving and democrats which we now know senior need to push back against that intelligence officials did not want him to have, but to which narrative. every single women running this donald trump really, really cycle is extraordinarily wanted to give him. qualified, point one. point two, every single democrat according to the "new york times," giving jared kushner that top security clearance met running is infa it inially more defying the recommendations of qualified than donald trump. senior intelligence officials including the cia. we are the party of diversity donald trump did it any way. and the party of america and we need to be proud of that as democrats and we need to speak which as president he has the perfect right to do and yet, he it forcefully. i think the other piece that and his administration and even people are looking for in addition to what fernand pointed his daughter, jared kushner's wife, ivanka, repeatedly lied to out, people are also looking for a fighter, not just someone who the public about it. is going to beat donald trump, but someone who will be why would they do that? joining me now david k. unapologetic in fighting for democratic values. johnston, founder of dc >> on that point, nayer, first, joe biden is a tough guy. report.org. he's the guy who said, about

rudy giuliani all he says is a noun and verb and 9/11 which malcolm vance and frank figulisi ended rudy giuliani as a presidential candidate to be honest. he has a tendency as people would say to make a gaffe here and sarah kenslyier. and there and sometimes a gaffe thank you all for being here. is when you say what you think and not the thing that you ought to say in the political moment. i rarely have these two gentlemen at the desk with me. it's not politics to say. i'll turn to my illut trius here is joe biden making what people are saying is a gaffe, might just be joe biden being panel. malcolm and david. joe biden. >> guys, a decent guy, our vice it is unusual, although the president has the right to offer this security clearance and president, who stood before this override his national security group of allies and leaders, and officials, doing so for this particular person was unusual for a lot of reasons. said i'm here on behalf of can you remind people of why? he wasn't exactly honest in the president trump. ways he described his there was dead silence. qualifications. >> no. dead silence. for the first time in my career >> you know, nayer, the part where i held the top secret clearance for a quarter of a about the dead silence when the vice president greets our allies century, i have never heard the on behalf of the president and phrase unclearable before and it being humiliating for that was one of the phrases that was used about jared kushner and americans to be silent that part people didn't have a problem 30 other individuals in the

white house. with regards to kushner, some with, calling pence a decent guy, was that a mistake be? rumors came up rather early on >> it shows how joe biden in november 2016, there was a represents the evolution of america and that's actually the report that was passed on to the alternative argument to his appeal to millennial voters is fbi that he went to the russian that's his appeal to boomers and embassy along with general folks who are trying to become michael flynn and asked them for woke and didn't wake up woke a secure communications back channel that couldn't be every day. intercepted by the cia and nsa. it's going to be balanced by joe biden's history with women, he explained that away that it particularly anita hill. was supposed to be about syria, he's yet to apologize to her yes, but that makes us directly how will that play with suspicious that you're an act of black women voters. this is part and parcel of a foreign power. then there's all his financial actually what makes joe biden appealing to many people is that dealings being almost a billion dollars in debt and these not only does he represent the relationships which were now evolution of america, but he is being exposed to saudi arabia also willing to come out and and other countries, this would admit to making a mistake. give anybody who is adjudicating >> yeah. >> and let me come back to you, fernand, the other issue, of authority pause. they couldn't be explained and course, with these guys, i think the point you made about biden then he updates his cf 86 100 and beto, i heard all over iowa about biden and kamala harris, that people were saying what they wanted ideally was the times. i've never heard of being safety of biden with the next updated one time before they thing whoever is going to be the pull your clearance. next person with him on the he could not be cleared and the ticket and the person we heard other agencies did not want him

to have access to their it over and again people wanted information. a biden harris ticket. >> and david, let's talk the search for safety. money wise there's also a about -- there was the back channel communication that certain safety in picking a good malcolm just talked about. fundraiser. beto o'rourke raised a whole lot there were these weird meetings of money. it's interesting to me that a f between the head of a bank that was aligned with the kremlin that was secret during the lost their races, campaign that he also lied about. in the open i talked about 666 bill, heidi, four out of five 5th avenue. this was the thing that to me, lost. personally was the strangest raising money doesn't mean you're going to win. thing about jared kushner. what'st in going through those typically somebody who comes in with a literal billion dollars first four crucial states headed debt that they really need to into expensive super tuesday? pay off -- there was a balloon is it how much money you're able payment that was due last to raise or how much exkrooikci january. >> and they overpaid heavily for the building which was at the among the base? core of the problem. >> i think both. joe biden has a problem in >> talk about 666 5th avenue. particular that not a lot of people are talking about yet, it felt like jared kushner was but i think it's going to become more and more an obvious one on a money hunt as he's jaunting called barack obama. around the middle east looking remember that the barack obama primary is going to be for cash to pay off this extraordinarily important for democrats. who barack obama says should be the next nominee i think is building. >> they did have this huge going to be important. balloon payment and the kushner family, which owns a lot of whether obama endorses or doesn't endorse joe biden, i think is a challenge for him

rental real estate, low end because he was his vice rental real estate, slum lord president, they talk about the celebrated bromance, if obama real estate, leveraged itself up doesn't say this is my guy, the to buy this building at the top of the market and paid too much for it. guy he should be president if i wonder who else i know paid too much for buildings like the anything happens is a big problem. plaza hotel, and the need for >> lightning rod, first nayer, do biden and beto get in or both money to get out of these deals, or one and which one? jared kushner went to, among >> oh, i think they both jump in others, the qatarrys. and any one of these candidates is going to be better than they are very much seen as a donald trump. threat by the saudis and what is >> fernand, both or one? >> they both jump in. >> tara dowdell, both or one? going on here between the >> i'm going with both as well. qataris and the saudis, who have >> it's going to be 4300 people running. very different views, they >> yes. >> tara, fernand, and nayer, thank you. coming up it's been a wild crazy beheaded 40 different people just for praying for change, week. presidential historian michael goes to the why we should be beschloss will sort it out for us and put it in perspective. worried and how does somebody like that get a security clearance, although i think that the back channel alone should be enough. >> let's talk about this, frank. the "new york times" report set off this round -- new round of speculation about kushner. said that even john kelly who

pretty much did what donald trump wanted him to do on most things and helped out some other questionable people that probably shouldn't have been there, one that was accused of domestic violence, et cetera. he wrote a memo about he had guys go through a lot to deal with shave irritation. been ordered to give mr. kushner so, we built the new gillette skinguard with a specialized guard designed to reduce it. a top security clearance. the white house counsel at the because we believe all men deserve a razor just for them. time, don mcgahn also wrote an internal memo outlining the the best a man can get. concerns he had raised -- that gillette. had been raised about mr. kushner including the cia and about how -- and how don mcgahn had recommended that he not been this round is on me. giving a top secret clearance. hey, can you spot me? frank, how odd would it be for come on in! find your place, today, with silver sneakers... somebody who's in substantial debt, somebody who's in need of included with many medicare plans. money, somebody who has taken call the number on the screen now or visit meetings including trying to get a secret back channel to the getsilversneakers.com kremlin, for that person who's got all these red flags coming up from the cia to still get a

security clearance? >> the word unprecedented is overused but i can tell you that in my 25 years including in the fbi, including running counterintelligence, i've seen serious issues, i've seen clearance decisions made and not made. this is unprecedented and when you hear that his form had to be changed maybe 100 times, that has never in my experience happened with the clearance then later being granted because it smacks of deception. you can't forget 100 things on your form. he had to be corrected likely numerous times and then when you look at the fact that kelly and mcgahn felt compelled to go in writing and use strong language like, we were ordered, you know that's a clue that something in that background or likely many multiple things in that background report disturbed them to the point that they felt they had to go in writing. >> sarah, the next piece of it,

but donald trump at the end of the day no matter what red flags were in his background as the president can overrule it and get the security clearance done. he can do that. it's not illegal to hire your son-in-law. none of this is against the law. what's weird about it on top of all the rest is that he lied about it and his daughter lied about it. let me play sound bytes of each of those two things. >> did you tell general kelly or anyone else in the white house to overrule security officials? >> no. i don't think i have the authority to do that. >> you do. >> i wouldn't do it. jared's a good -- i was -- i was never involved with the security. i know that he just from reading, i know that there was issues back and forth about security for numerous people,

actually, but i don't want to when heartburn hits, get involved in that stuff. fight back fast with tums smoothies. it neutralizes stomach acid at the source. >> there was some issues early ♪tum tum tum tum on and there are a lot of people smoothies. that question whether you were also available tums sugar-free. given special treatment by the president overriding other officials. can you speak to that? >> there were anonymous leaks about there being issues, but the president had no involvement pertaining to my clearance or my husband's clearance, zero. >> what were the problems early on? >> there weren't any, other than a backlog that exists of close to a million clearances across government. this isn't new. i'm an shaped that i chose >> so she directly lied on that to take part in concealing and also she has a top security mr. trump's illicit acts rather than listening to my own clearance too. neither of those lies had to be told and yet they were, what does that say to you? conscience i am ashamed because i know what mr. trump is. >> basically, trump has been grooming those two. he is a racist, he is a con man. this is very common. this is something you see in autocracy and mafia states where and he is a cheat. the leader will put his children >> lordy what a week. or relatives into office in order to keep the corruption joining me is michael beschloss, going, keep the money flowing,

not get caught, override author of the terrific book prosecution. of course the talking about "presidents of war." jared kushner and the fact that michael, it's always a treat to he lied on his clearance forms, talk to you. that he's done elicit dealings i'm going to jump right in. >> thanks. and giving away state secret and >> what did you make of the he's a massive national security cohen moment as a john dean risk and so is ivanka trump. moment, was it that or because the only way that we would be able to finally stop having this had he so many personal things insights was it something more? conversation on national tv is >> i think the most important if he is indicted. thing is what elijah cummings that is is what needs to be said at the end which is take a done. this problem is enormous. look at the transcript of this it's going to persevere. hearing and what he was even if he is gone, he's suggesting is that that might be a road map for the carrying around this information, other people are investigations of donald trump carrying around classified information. they do not have loyalty to the by the house. maxine waters, financial country. they have debt. they have financial interests. services, ways and means perhaps they have personal interests. this problem needs to be handled getting donald trump's tax returns. other committees with other now. it is ridiculous that we are in jurisdictions. so that if donald trump is this day ja news cycle where i forced from office, prematurely, appear on here as do others to have the same conversation future generations of americans again. might look back to this week as just indict jared kushner and a very important week. >> indeed. following the testimony we heard indict ivanka trump and get this from john dean during the nixon crying family out of the white era, you had seven nixon aides house. >> sarah, you have the same -- you're not alone in it. indicted. >> right. >> people actually were indicted off it. i feel like we do kind of -- you could see similar things

happening here. >> i might add not only did that we're living in groundhog day forever. happen but that same day, which when jared kushner first got this job, sarah, i think sarah was 45 years ago yesterday, and malcolm were on the show there was a sealed briefcase, that we talked about. you guys were both on that show. very dramatic brought into the courtroom and inside that was a let me just come back to you. piece of paper saying that you and i probably have had the richard nixon, the sitting president was an unindicted longest deja vu, i feel like we just talk about the same thing co-conspirator, americans didn't find out for three months. for three years. >> we do. the reality is, what are the worst case scenarios? >> the difference though, republicans aren't there yet at >> that's not funny. the point where they feel like no. >> honestly, if he's looking for they can make a break from this money from the qataris, they say president. >> nowhere near. what also happened with no, they get caught off, bam. republicans in 1974. it took until probably the late a place where we have -- where we have all sorts of spring of 1964 which was more relationships, we cut them off. than a year after the watergate he needs money badly from them. scandal began for republicans to he needs money badly. the saudis have a lot of money. begin coming off the fence and that happened to some extent he has all this information to give if he wanted to stharks the because richard nixon began dropping in the polls. worst case scenario? hasn't happened yet with donald >> he was the single largest trump of course, among requester of intelligence in the republicans. >> i want to turn to this other white house that exceeded all moment i thought was white house staff other than the extraordinary. donald trump was obviously in

national security counsel staff who, by the way, live in a skif, vietnam during the cohen hearings. he was there for this supposed summit that would have a live in a secure facility. it makes you want to question, break-through with north korea that did not happen. he made a comment about the why do you need all that data? death of a young man named otto maybe he was getting back warmbier, a young student who information, reading died after he came back from intelligence assessments just to give himself that backgrounder. incarcerationings in a north we will give him that. korean gulag. here is what he said, donald for the most part, you have to trump. >> i don't believe he knew about ask, as you said, what's the it. >> did he tell you he did not, worse case scenario? when he went and had that did kim jong-un. meeting with the russian bank, >> he felt very badly. he knew the case very well but the bank of spies that was led he knew it later in those by an ex-russian intelligence prisons and camps, you have a lot of people and some really bad things happened to otto, officer and asked them for some really, really bad things. whoever knows what that maybe >> are you -- >> he tells me he didn't know that there were some quid pro about it. quo. i don't believe that would and i will take him at his word. happen because guys like frank >> donald trump took vladimir and the counterintelligence people and the cia would have putin at his word he didn't picked up on that right away. meddle in our elections in jared kushner's problem is and helsinki and does the same thing what i think is going on is, he with kim jong-un. is trading intelligence for as a historian, what do you make of this tendency? favors and the one thing that we >> you have a president know he did -- and prince truckling to dictators in a way

muhammad bin salman in saudi we have never seen before in american history. a lot of american presidents arabia bragged publicly that jared kushner brought him the negotiated with soviet leaders. names of all the tax cheats in were they required to say stalin saudi arabia and he carried out that massive sweep of princes did not know gulag and the and billionaires and then number killed under his watch? extorted almost a trillion dollars of money that was being you can negotiate with someone withheld out of them and that came from u.s. intelligence, without an basing your country. according to the saudis >> what about that kind of themselves. >> a lot of nodding here. behavior doesn't hurt him with >> absolutely, and here's an republicans? >> if you had told me two and a opportunity that we should be half years ago that a republican thinking about. we know that in private many of the republicans, the principled president would say such things, i would have thought the republicans are shocked and republican leaders and upset, but they can't go against republicans certainly in the trump if they want to get house and senate would have been shocked and expressed re-elected. >> they're still principled? themselves. >> if donald trump survives just sayin'. these allegations of tax >> now is the time for them to start separating themselves. cheating, of financial crimes, this is a national security of potential collusion with a issue. selling our secrets. foreign power being an agent of >> yeah. >> this is where they need to a foreign power, what will that step up or we need to say, do to the presidency of the united states? sorry, your career should end. >> before we go, both the house >> it will say that all the oversight chair elijah cummins mechanisms, the founders built into our system to make sure has threatened to subpoena the white house if they don't turn someone who violates the law if

over their documents regarding donald trump has violated the these security clearance. law is thrown out of the house intel chair adam schiff presidency, that those have not worked. and if his party is an has raised huge alarms about accessory, it would suggest that these security clearances, the the rules that applied to father-in-law, everything. if you were briefing these american politics for most of committees, what should they be our history are suddenly changing really fast and not in asking jared kushner and should they subpoena him? a good way. >> michael, always a treat to >> so, first, i would say to talk to you. thank you very much. them let's go beyond the memo >> me, too. >> more am joy after the break. o written by mcgahn and kelly and >> more am joy after the break let's go to the heart, let's get i know what it means to have reliable support. the fbi background investigation itself. let's find exactly what the intelligence concerns were that caused even the cia reportedly to this day to not give them the special compartmented clearance that gets him cia information, that's out there and let's get the whole report and then let's go more than that. let's look at the system that's broken that allows a president to override career professionals and investigators that client relationship on backgrounds came up even in the kavanaugh hearing, that needs to be looked at and changed, so that we put the decision in the hands of

career professionals. >> indeed. >> one quick point. there is one way to resolve this whole issue, jared kushner right now could request a full spectrum polygraph done by a joint agency, you know, by the cia, fbi and then they can ask him all the questions related to his past just like people bhor suspected of being -- spies and people who want to get special access information. you have to get that clearance. >> he'll never do that, right? >> of course he's never going to do that. he has multiple interests. he wants to make money and he needs to stay in power. one thing i want to add, this is not just a destabilization of america, this affects the security of the entirely world and we need to be looking closely with the people he's been collaborating with particularly mbs and netanyahu. that is his circle of political colleagues. >> that's the last word for this segment. david's will be back. thank you all very much. coming up, trump's former attorney and fixer and his john dean moment testifying to

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but i like the smell of it next, alex witt with the latest. laughs ♪ >> we've got bernie. >> you guys are going for it. >> we're watching and we'll see you tomorrow, my friend. thank you so much. from right here msnbc world headquarters in new york. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." ready to rally, senator bernie sanders is about to hold his first 2020 campaign rally. how he's changing the race and getting personal. democrats demanding all documents related to jared kushner's security clearance and they want it by monday. there is new fallout to discuss. ripple effects of michael cohen's testimony. how it could haunt the president all of you. even after he leaves office. how you live, tax time. what you love. the house poised to call for the that's what inspired us to create america's most advanced internet. president's tax returns. what democrats are expecting to internet that puts you in charge. find especially after cohen's that protects what's important. testimony. but first, at the top of the it handles everything, hour, bernie sanders set 0 kick off his 2020 presidential run at and reaches everywhere. this is beyond wifi, this is xfi. any moment with a rally in

brooklyn college. there you see a woman simple. easy. awesome. xfinity, the future of awesome. i'm responsible for your silliness because i did the same thing that you're doing now for ten years. i protected mr. trump for ten years, and i can only warn people. the more people that follow mr.

trump, as i did blindly, are going to suffer the same consequences that i'm suffering. >> michael cohen issued a warning to congressional republicans during his blockbuster testimony this week. cohen continued talking thursday behind closed doors with the house intelligence committee and will be back for another round this wednesday. it's among the first signs of just how different washington is with democrats in control of the house. david's back with me and joining me now he willy ma stol and jill wine banks. jill, i'm coming to you first in that fetching red top. i hate to be shallow, but that's really cute. let's talk about -- i do love to have you on to talk about all the convergences with watergate. it does feel like a lot of it is deja vu. this was the john dean moment, when somebody who was involved with the president got up and just laid it all out at least in public. we now know that house democrats

want to in light of the things said by michael cohen, they want to talk with the trump organization cfo allen weisselberg, they want to interview felix sadder who is an informant but a big time fixer in the murky world of russian business, et cetera, the house financial services wants to talk about whether donald trump exaggerated his wealth in order to get bank loans and lower his insurance premiums. the house financial services committee wants to come after the trump foundation and, of course, house ways and means wants his tax return. one little thread starts getting pulled and then everybody gets pulled in? >> in a way, it is, but that little thread to get pulled takes a very carefully planned attack by the prosecutors of getting the evidence. you mount the evidence by getting one piece and another and building it so that they all

fit together. it's not just an independent piece. it takes putting them so that they all merge and fit together and that's what's happening here. the most important thing i think about last wednesday was just that it was public. it's one of the first times that the american people can judge the credibility of witnesses, can listen to what they're saying, watch their body language, their tone of voice and evaluate whether they think it's true and he came in with corroboration actually more corroboration than john dean had. john dean wasn't corroborated until much later when the tapes were revealed. >> yeah. can we just note that people were trying to make a big deal, republicans on the dais, jill, that he's headed to jail. wasn't john dean also headed to jail? >> at that point he wasn't. he was given immunity. we made him plea to at least one

count before we would accept his cooperation, because we knew that juries don't often believe people who are getting off scott free and so he did plead and he did end up going to jail although most of his time he served working with us every single day. he was in the office and he was like a computer back then. his memory was incredible. he has basically a photographic memory. he left the white house not voluntarily and without any documents and he did not know about the taping system, so when he testified he was testifying from his memory which turned out to be 100% accurate. when he said the president, i told about cancer on the presidency on march 21st, then we got the tape of march 21st and sure enough that's exactly what he said. everything proved to be true and we have some corroboration from cohen that check is a very dramatic piece of evidence. the president as president signed this check just like he signs legislation with that very

dramatic up and down bold handwriting and seeing that is proof that you just can't dispute. >> absolutely. i was surprised, guys, that the democrats didn't just hold the check up every single question because that was damning. let me come to the table for a moment. the republicans have tried to vilify michael cohen as a liar. he did lie to that committee and he admitted it, but that to me misses the point. john dean really was the hero of watergate in a lot of ways because he was willing to tell the truth about what happened in his white house and he was heroic in the end in the fact that he was willing to tell the truth. michael cohen is telling truth that we can only get from him. here is his lawyer lanny davis talking with rachel mad do you on thursday. >> new information was developed that really could be game changing. this new information is the reason he's coming back next wednesday. it's not core to the russian

investigation, but mr. trump has missed the big picture. there is plenty of evidence of a conspiracy to collude with russia, but this is about lying and obstruction evidence. >> so on the point of new evidence that could be coming forward. let's listen to alexandria ocasio-cortez who really used her time effectively. she truly did. here it is. >> to your knowledge, did the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company? >> yes. >> who else knows that the president did this? >> allen weisselberg, ron lieberman and matt calamari. >> and where would the committee find more information on this? do you think we need to review his financial statements and his tax returns in order to compare them? >> yes, and you'd find it at the trump organization. >> problematic. that came out because michael cohen testified. >> that's how to conduct an examination with all of the

congressman and done so well. she follows up with the right question. who do we need to talk to? in the case of cohen's credibility, we use people in court like him all the time to get convictions, many of the best sources i've had in my life were crooked cops who were telling the truth when it was in their interest to do so -- >> i want to come to this quickly. the trump organization, even before this president, it clearly appears that donald trump inflates his assets and deflates them and destroys records. >> correct. >> let's listen to a piece of sound that i think is a problem that donald trump could have as a result of michael cohen. this is about what else might be out there. take a listen. >> is there any other wrongdoing or illegal act that you are aware of regarding donald trump that we haven't yet discussed today? >> yes, and again, those are part of the investigation that's currently being looked at by the southern district of new york.

>> sdny is coming up. the irony here that i hope is not lost on people is that the trump organization which appears to be a massive criminal front, is so small potatoes that if trump hadn't run for president, sdny wouldn't care. sdny cares about stop terrorism. putting sdny on the trump investigation, is like bringing in sherlock holmes to figure out who framed roger rabbit. now that sdny is on it, they're all going down. the key thing from michael cohen's testimony beside all the information he laid out, he issued basically a warning to the rest of the people in the trump organization from the cfo allen weisselberg all the way down to the secretary. you lie for trump, you're going to get got. sdny is lining all of them up. when you talk about new information, i found the most compelling piece of information, the stuff from deutscha bank, for people that don't follow

financial news, they are on fire. people think that they are engaged in serious money laundering. when cohen says that he's -- i have a message for republicans. there are easier ways to get a book deal. when cohen says that trump was inflating his assets to get a loan to buy the buffalo bills, michael cohen wasn't trying to buy the buffalo bills, donald trump was. you know what the statute of limitations on bank fraud that happened in 2014, it's ten years. >> wow. >> this election is so important for donald trump because if he does not win, sdny is going to be waiting with cuffs on his way out the door. >> wow. >> that is the -- to me the key that cohen said was that he brought this new information, that the statute of limitation has not run on and he warned the other people in the trump organization that you can't lie. >> you just also warned us for donald trump winning the election then becomes existential. he's got to win.

before we go, if you were on that committee, on the house intelligence committee, who would you call next? what witness? >> well, i have a personal favorite, rhona graff and that's just based on having question rosemary woods. they know everything and i know that rosemary woods was an adviser to president nixon. she was not just an assistant and rhona graff has been with him for years, but i would say allen weisselberg would be a close first as well. i think that that is very significant. >> before we go, what's your pin? >> my pin is a rooster crowing the truth and saying that the republicans ought to start listening to the truth and also crowing about arizona about to become the 38th state and the last necessary state to pass the equal rights amendment. there's a big walk, a 38-mile walk starting in phoenix on

march 11th and i hope everyone who can will get to phoenix and join that march so that we can pass the equal rights amendment. >> we need to have you to come back just to talk about that. okay. jill, bringing the fire and the fashion. thank you very much, jill. have a great day. >> thank you. >> and david and elly will be back with us. why michael cohen's testimony could put ivanka and don junior in the hot seat? you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? most pills don't finish the job because they don't relieve nasal congestion. flonase sensimist is different. it relieves all your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. it's more complete allergy relief.

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mr. trump had frequently told me and others that his son don junior had the worst judgment of anyone in the world. and also that don junior would never set up any meeting of significance alone, and certainly not without checking with his father. >> michael cohen's seven hour testimony to congress spared no one in trump world, least of all first children don junior and ivanka creating a potential road map for house democrats in their continuing investigation. >> we'll figure out who we want to talk to and bring them in. >> ivanka trump. >> just follow the transcript. >> let's jump right in to it. one more little bite about what michael cohen said about don junior, here it is. >> i recall don junior leaning

over to his father and speaking in a low voice, which i could clearly hear, and saying, the meeting is all set and i remember mr. trump saying, okay, good. let me know. so i concluded that don junior was referring to that june 2016 trump tower meeting about dirt on hillary with the russian representatives when he walked behind his dad's desk that day. >> so there's two ways to look at it, you know, that cohen is saying that donald trump felt his son don junior had the worst judgment of all, but -- maybe actually they go together but then he's don junior does the meeting or sets up the meeting, this trump tower meeting but he has to tell his dad z that track with what you know about the family? >> absolutely. let me tell you why -- it tracks with two things. it tracks with what i know about campaign and it tracks with what family. the way trump has his

organization set up and it should be noted that the trump organization is not some big sprawling enterprise with hundreds of employees. it is a small real estate business and most real estate businesses, no matter how much money comes through the doors, are pretty small in terms of staff. but the way trump sets things up is he wants people jockeying for his approval and so there's no way in a scenario where the principle as we call it in the business, where the principle wants to create a situation where people are jockeying to gain his approval and gain his adoration that you wouldn't then do something that benefits that person and bring it directly to him. that was the situation that trump had arranged. he also engaged in splitting, the way parents split children. he engaged in splitting amongst people generally and that's how he maintained -- >> what is splitting? what do you mean? >> it refers to when you basically pit people against one another.

>> he pit the kids against each other. >> often times, the kids against one another and employees against one another and that's how you maintain them. that's a very common dynamic on campaigns is where people want to get the candidate's trust, they want to gain the candidate's support so when later jobs and opportunities are ready that they are first in line. >> yeah. >> and so you have those both dynamics it's hard to believe that trump junior wouldn't have run to his father. >> that's one piece, that donald trump would have known about the trump tower meeting. point two, on the moscow tower which cohen has admitted he lied to congress about. that's what he lied about. how long they were trying to get this tower done. here is michael cohen about who he briefed regarding the trump tower. here it is. >> who are the family members that you briefed on the trump tower/moscow project?

>> donald trump jr. and ivanka trump. >> do you recall how many of these briefings there might have been? >> approximately ten in total. >> problem for donald trump jr., potentially. the testimony of michael cohen under oath is that he briefed don junior and ivanka about the tower meeting. question, did you have any involvement in the potential deal in moscow? answer, i was peripherally aware of it. michael cohen says ten briefings. >> that's the artful answer trump has learned to give. donald's style is to work through other people, his children, michael cohen and not only pit them against each other but to create deniability. this is what i told them. i didn't tell them to break the law, i told them to do x. that's what you're seeing play out here. don junior will have a very tough time asserting that he had no idea. >> how about ivanka?

here's ivanka answering abbey huntsman of abc about the same project? >> the moscow project in russia -- >> barely know about it. i've learned a lot more about it watching the news. >> but you did have a role on this? what was it? >> literally almost nothing. >> that's going to be hard to maintain. let's talk about ivanka and jared. jared and evivanka are the favorite. tell us about jared kushner. >> jared kushner is the son of charlie kushner who's a huge real estate developer first in new jersey and now they have a lot of properties in new york as well. charlie kushner was, basically, went to prison -- he went to prison because he hired a prostitute to sleep with his brother-in-law because there was a family battle over the family fortune, the real estate enterprise and the empire. he hires a prostitute to sleep

with his brother-in-law and then he sent the recording of that encounter to his sister and he wanted to send it to her children, to his nieces and nephews and the criminal goon that he hired to orchestrate the whole thing said, oh, that's too much. that's over-the-top. i can't do that. what people should know about jared kushner is that jared was the one who was selected of the children to be the heir apparent for jared kushner. charlie kushner personally groomed jared kushner. the other thing that people should know is, ivanka and don junior were almost indicted by the manhattan district attorney for lying to potential buyers at trump soho. that's another thing that's important for context that we remember. >> all three, jared, don junior and ivanka should all worry. none of them have been called yet but that doesn't mean they won't be. none of them have been interviewed by mueller or sdny

but that doesn't mean they won't be. trump tweeted about his golf course in scotland. you had some thoughts apparently on why he might be doing that. >> beneath the dignity of the president to do this -- >> that's daily, but any way. >> what prompted this? the scottish courts have ruled that donald trump's lawsuit against winterbins were so baseless that trump has to pay the scottish government its legal fees. >> i think the moral of this story is, had donald trump not run for president, a lot of these business dealings, it's his business being just laid bare because he decided to run for president. david, thank you very much. coming up, the star of the conservative political action conference, aoc? what? more on that next. and it really shows. with all that usaa offers why go with anybody else?

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tax rate. >> this green new deal, they're trying to get cows. they want to take your pick-up truck, they want to rebuild your home, they want to take away your hamburgers. >> here on earth the president of the united states is donald trump and he's being investigated for a range of potential crimes and for potentially being under the influence of a foreign power. on earth two known as cpac under way as we speak in maryland the president is 29-year-old alexandria ocasio-cortez of the bronx and socialism is coming for your hamburger. joining me now from c spak daniel dale, washington correspondent for the toronto star. you are so good at truth squadding things that aren't

true i have to read a thing myself, according to the "washington post" josef stalin was unambiguously pro-hamburger. he sent his food supply on a research mission to the united states which resulted in soviet rip off of the classic ground beef burglar popularized throughout russia. what's stood out to you so far at cpac? >> i missed your question. someone was talking behind me. >> what has stood out to you at c spak. >> they're talking about socialism and i talk to democrats and say this is always their playbook no matter who the democrat candidate is or president is, but it's come back with a vengeance in a way that it didn't happen at cpac last year or the year before. it seems this is going to be the playbook running against a version of socialism that democrats aren't campaigning on and i'm from canada, people in canada are used to things like

single payer universal health care, people in skands nave ya used to the programs the democrats are running on but republicans are determined they made it clear here to claim that any version of socialism even the soft democratic version we have in canada is going to lead the u.s. down the road to venezuela or the soviet union. you've heard the word venezuela a ton here, they're going to steal your hamburgers and make you eat dog food. it's been dark and apocalyptic. >> don't tell anyone there about social security and medicare it's going to blow their minds. has there been talk about the cohen testimony that you've heard? >> there has been a little bit, but only to mock michael cohen. they've talked about it in passing. they don't want to talk about it and this is their forum and they're on stage and can talk about whatever they want. socialism, knocking the mueller investigation, illegal immigration. this is not a place where anyone is compelling them to talk about cohen. >> what we've heard on earth one

where you are at cpac, alex andrew he ya ocasio-cortez's name coming up a lot, are you hearing her from ordinary attendees or on the stage? give us a bit about that. >> behind me as we speak, as you went into commercial the right wing talk show host on stage insulting alexandria ocasio-cortez mentioned more than any potential democratic candidate. she is the clear villain of this gathering and the clear policy villain is the green new deal. it's interesting to me this is sort of the setup to the republican 2020 campaign and they are running against someone who is not running for president in that election. it's fascinating to watch. >> it's so loud behind you, i will play you don junior at the event. here he is. >> put it all out there, don't redact anything. if i'm even the subject of this thing and, you know, perhaps one of the initial catalysts of it just because they would do anything. >> i'm wondering how don junior

is playing at cpac. what is the view of the trump family? >> they love the trump family. he's a star here. he was here briefly. he got mobbed by people patting him on the back trying to shake his hand. this family is beloved. and, you know, early in the rise of trump the stories out of cpac were how are these people going to take to the donald trump and the trump family given his departure from traditional conservative views on many issues. that's over. this is, you know, vehemently pro-trump gathering. the mere mention of the president gets standing ovations. there's no dispute anymore. >> talk about donald trump himself senior. he is speaking at cpac. is there a read out on what he's going to say? >> we have no idea. i mean, i'm sure as usual his aides have written him a full speech that he is very unlikely to perform. he usually uses cpac to rant. he treats it like a rally which

it basically is. these are his people and supports and i find that interesting we'll see what he says. >> i'm interested in the mix of sort of the different wings of the democratic party. there's the evangelical wing, the kind of -- there was a national security wing, i'm not sure if that exists anymore. what's the preponderance there? a christian right crowd or straight up maga hat crowd? >> it's hard to know. it's a very young crowd. as someone on stage more than half of the people here are under 25. sort of a half party, half training session for young conservatives. they're not very representative of the republican base around the country. it's a more affluent crowd than usual. my sense it's less religious and slightly more libertarian leaning. it's hard to get a full sense. >> all right. daniel day, love talking to you. appreciate all of the info from cpac. there will be more "am joy" after the break. after the break.

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born in birmingham, alabama, there is no way that she would work for an individual who was racist. how do you reconcile the two of those? >> as neither should i as the son of a holocaust survivor. >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." michael cohen opened his testimony before the house oversight committee by unequivocally calling donald trump a racist and describing jaw-dropping conversations that he said he had with trump that proved as much to him. one republican congressman who like all of the members received cohen's opening statement in advance was ready. congressman mark meadows of north carolina hadn't come to the hearing empty handed. meadows invited lynne patton the former wedding planner for trump's son eric and his wife, whose job is overseeing all of new york and new jersey for the department of housing and urban development. under equally unqualified hud secretary neurosurgeon and also black person ben carson.

miss patton, despite not being in the legislative branch, and despite not being a witness, and despite not being a member of the congressional staff, was seated behind congressman meadows so he could ask her to stand up at the appointed moment to prove with her bodily presence that there's no way donald trump could be a racist because look at that black lady. look at her. he hired her. is she not black? she's standing right there. case closed. congressman lawrence of michigan was the first of several women of color on the -- of members of congress to object to that spectacle. >> i just want to put on the record as being a black american, and having endured the public comments of racism from the sitting president as being a black person, i can only imagine what's being said in private and to prop up one member of our

entire race of black people and say that that nullifies that is totally insulting. >> joining me is congresswoman of lawrence of michigan. when you said that, my entire text messages became filled with texts about you. you were the first of several black women and women of color let me go through this for a second. miss patton, what time did you guys receive the opening statements from michael cohen? what time were you as a congress person aware of what he was going to say? >> it was sent to us in the evening of the day before. >> right. >> so we had it for over eight hours. >> so if one of the members of the congress on the other side, if one of the republicans, mr. meadows wanted to call lynne patton as a witness even if it wasn't in that hearing but wanted to call her as a rebuttal witness could michael cohen could they not have done that? >> they could have? >> in your time in congress have you ever seen a physical demonstration like that where a

person's body is used and words put in their mouth by another member as a form of rebuttal? >> joy, first of all, thank you for having me. >> i'm so sorry. i sped right in. sorry. >> that's okay. i am so proud of you. i just want to say this, i have never in my lifetime, seen a human being used as a prop. if you could have -- if you looked around the hearing that day, there were posterboards all over the place saying liar liar pants on fire all this stuff but there is a process, he broke house rules, by bringing a non-house member or employee on to the podium in the first place and the audacity and ignorance to think that you could prop up a person, and then the validation, she must really be black, because her father is from alabama. i mean, i don't -- i don't know

on what level that that was considered a good idea. >> yeah. who normally sits behind you guys? you always see people behind you. who normally sitses there? >> that's all staff. only staff. members of the house employment staff. >> have you ever seen a member of the executive branch seated there? >> no. >> so just want to ask you those questions to establish how unusual it was, even as somebody who watches congressional hearings it was unusual. have you had any conversations with mr. meadows about what he did. >> he has not reached out to me after my statement. i did look at him and tell him i was very disappointed in him and he and i, who have a very fluid relationship because he knows i will confront him on issues we disagree on, but we have always been respectful to each other, and i just don't for the life of me how did you think this was the right thing to do.

you broke house rules number one, secondly, how did you -- you know, all the flashbacks of stereotypes, i have a black friend. oh, look, i can't be racist, because look, one of my employees, he cleans my house. he's black. i mean, it was just so outrageous. >> yeah. i think much of the country agreed with you. i guess in closing, michael cohen's testimony, the republicans tried to asail it as being all lies because he is a known liar and had lied to the members of congress and this demonstration with lynne patton was supposed to be a part of that. taking in michael cohen's testimony on donald trump's racial attitudes and in total did you find him credible? >> i found him credible because you know what, he never walked back or tried to change your mind about him being a convicted criminal from him being a liar. he owned it. he said, i have nothing to lose.

and that you know what, i want to cleanse myself. these are facts. i will tell people, i am not in love with mr. cohen but i wanted to hear what a person who had ten years in the bubble with donald trump and we have all these questions, could he share light on some issues and he did. and the fact that he sat through that hearing and was very, very convincing, but i tell people, a broken clock is correct, two times a day. >> there you go. who do you want to hear from next and who would you like to call next? >> i want to hear from the chief financial officer that was named in the hearing. i want to hear from the individuals from -- that was identified, and we're going through it now, but that cfo. >> mr. weisselberg.

>> yes. >> i'm interested to hear what he has to say. >> congresswoman lawrence, it's great, welcome to the show, thank you for taking the time. >> have a great day. >> you too. joining me eli, tara dowdell and contributor charlie sikhs. i'll start with you, tara. >> the racist bone connected to the hip is the hip bone connected to the thigh bone. no. this is -- it's absurd. i have to make a joke to lessen the sting. you know, it's absurd, but it's also harmful. it's extremely harmful. so what i find fascinating is how the crowd says they don't see color are quick to say did you see my black friend over there. they don't see color but saw that. >> i know you have a reaction, i feel you might have a reaction. >> i know white members can't say this they have to work with the man, i can say it, he's so racist he needs to be put on

display as an artifact. i am so sick of republicans thinking that the only racist people left in america are david duke and louis farrakhan. people don't get a vote and held in bondage and oppression in the world 400 years. my own counsel will i keep on who is to be called racist. when these people, when these white republicans, try to tell me and standing behind, who is racist and not racist, they need to understand that i do not care. what i care about is what their policies are and what their actions are. mark meadows is a birther so he can roll his behind out of here. >> let's play this. mark meadows' comments in 2012 about president obama. here it is. >> the more we find out, the more we realize how wrong the direction we're going. what we're going to do is take back our country, 2012 is the

time that we're going to send mr. obama home to kenya or wherever it is, we're going to do it. >> let's play just in fairness what his response was when people resurfaced that for him this week. >> it was early nona primary and certainly didn't indicate any personal malice that i would have towards any president, previous or sitting president. anyone who knows me, knows that there is not a racial bone in my body. >> charlie, you know, that explanation and actually a couple instances where he did the birther thing, scott put out a second one where he was seated and also used the same line about president obama, is indicating that at minimum, mark meadows is willing to utilize birtherism for his own political advancement and use the physical body of a black woman as a rebuttal against the idea that donald trump is racist. this is like a problem a lot of people have with the republican approach on race in general.

what do you think? >> no question. by the way, note to self, don't follow elie mystal on something like this. this whole hearing was a morality play in washington how people were setting themselves on fire to serve trumpism. if you want to show you're not a racist, i have black friends is like the lamest, most awkward thing you could possibly do. simply to have someone stand behind you and not talk, i mean, which aide, which overpaid congressional aide came up with that? >> yeah. >> but yeah, there's no question about it. mark meadows is, in fact, a birther and this has been the sort of cancer in the republican party that they failed to address early on. i mean, donald trump launched his presidential bid by embracing birtherism. this is almost the original sin. and when you bring that back for mark meadows to say, yes, i was implying that first african-american president of the united states was born in

kenya, but i don't have a racial bone in my body, look, he showed us who he was and he reiterates it and his defenses dig a deeper hole. >> the thing that is confounding about it is, when meadows was rebuked by not one but three or four different women of color on the dias, started with congresswoman lawrence, then it continued rashida ta lib the last person to say it, it kept going, and specifically the women of color. >> ayanna pressley made the point. >> he was getting rebuked by black women. >> rashida talib said something, here's how that went. >> the fact that someone would actually use a prop, a black woman, in this chamber, in this committee, is alone, racist in

itself. >> miss ta lib, i want to understand you were not intending to call mr. meadows a racist, is that right? >> i do not call mr. meadows a racist. >> there's nothing more personal to me than my relationship, my nieces and nephews are people of color. not many people know that. you know that, mr. chairman. >> all are in there. the thing is that the end result is that rashida ta lib is told to apologize, the rules of the house you cannot disparage another member, that is one piece, why the chairman intervened, elijah cummings, but the over umbrage of mark meadows saying you calling him racist is worst than the things he heard that michael cohen said. >> this is the classic republican conservative play. they do or say something racist, they are then called out by it, and then they play the victim

card. this is exactly what they do in every single one of these occurrences. and now they're stepping it up going further, crying now. but the other thing is, this is a strategy. the reason why they picked congresswoman tlaib to make the person they were going to attack and vilify around her speaking the truth is because they want to make her a lightning rod. >> they do. >> over her issues on palestine. >> they have certain ones they want to make a lightning rod. democrats need to be very much proactive about this. >> yeah. >> this is a republican strategy that understand that the democrats have more to lose by the division because our party is the party of diversity. so we have all of these different groups together under one tent. and the republicans very much intend to exploit that in 2020 and the handwriting is already on the wall. it's starting. democrats need to be proactively prepared for that. >> going after the -- the fab four, these four women are the target, ilan ya na omar, aoc,

their number one target, rashida tlaib and ayanna pressley, those four and they haven't hit ayanna much. they're coming after particularly the other three a lot. i want to remind people of what michael cohen said. it cannot be played enough. the things he said are not things he heard about. he's saying they're things he heard trump said in his presence. take a listen. >> mr. trump is a racist. he once asked me if i can name a country run by a black person that wasn't a -- this is when barack obama was president of the united states. and while we were striving through a neighborho-- driving neighborhood in chicago he commented only black people could live that way. he told me, that black people would never vote for him because they were too stupid. >> very quickly. >> message to the democrats running for president. if you cannot call out this racism when you see it, you are

not getting my vote in the primary. >> yeah. really quickly you were saying something in the break. >> donald trump wanted to do a blacks versus white season of "the apprentice". >> black people and white people compete against each other. >> that tells you everything you need to know. >> charlie sikhs, where do we go from here, the idea of being called a racist has become the biggest insult in the world progress if people don't want to be called it, but people aren't addressing the it itself. >> obviously it's more difficult than a lot of us had thought. look, i got to say, i'm really hoping that -- look, michael cohen is credible on that because i think we -- it's consistent with what we know about donald trump. i'm really actually hoping and i hope you understand my point here, i'm hoping we don't actually get a tape of donald trump using the "n" word because what you're going to see, you're going to see conservatives and republicans begin to rally around and justify it. >> yeah. >> move the window once again of

acceptable behavior. i think that that would be a cultural and political disaster. >> i think you are correct about the results of what would happen. i think you're 100% spot on and that is unfortunate. eli mystal, thank you, charlie, sta tara will be back later. >> michael cohen said members of congress are playing the heavy for trump out of blind loyalty like he did. one florida congressman decided to do a demonstration of that thing and we will talk about that next. bout that next.

i want to say, publicly what i've said privately to michael cohen and his family i'm sorry if it is entirely appropriate to test the truthfulness of a witness but that could have been done in a way that didn't invoke someone's family and i shouldn't have done it. >> florida congressman matt gaetz apologized. the tweet read, hey, michael cohen, do your wife and father-in-law know about your girlfriends? maybe tonight would be a good time to for that chat. i wonder if she'll remain faithful when you're in prison. she's about to learn a lot. gaetz deleted the tweet and apologized to cohen before telling donald trump in a phone call, so happy to do that for

you, boss. sounding like somebody we have gotten to know. >> i'm responsible for your silliness because i did the same thing you're doing now for ten years. i protected mr. trump for ten years, and i can only warn people the more people that follow mr. trump as i is it blindly, are going to suffer the same consequences that i'm suffering. >> and joining me now is republican strategist christopher metzher, author of "divided we stand." and fernand amandi. two floridians. let's talk about mr. gaetz. according to edward isaac of the atlantic, donald trump gets on a call and i think -- i'm sorry, gaetz gets on a call with donald trump and says it didn't happen, gets on a call and says president trump called matt gaetz last night from hanoi to talk the cohen testimony and the

threats and was told i'm happy to do it for you. you just keep killing it. this is the response denying he did that. >> someone did at that time overhear me say the words i was happy to do it for you, and you just keep killing it. the problem, martha, is i wasn't talking to donald trump. 8:37 p.m., i was -- i got a phone call from florida governor ron desantis. ron and i spoke for 13 minutes. and he was calling to thank me not about michael cohen or payoffs to porn stars but because i made a recommendation for someone to serve on the orlando airport board. >> who do you believe in that instance? the reporter edward isaac or matt gaetz. >> there's no question the reporter is reporting the truth in this case. joy, the most disturbing thing about this situation with congressman gaetz not the fact that he's engaged in either witness intimidation or tampering, hopefully a judge

will make that final determination, but the most disturbing thing is that the congress m congressman is not an outlier. he is representative of what the republican caucus is today, which is this republican extreme is the republican mainstream, joy. he is not an outlier. he is not a single figure operating on his own. he is a front line soldier in this party that has turned itself into the guard for this president trump. they're not interested in the truth. they're not interested in the rule of law. they're certainly not interested in the constitution. and i think that that concept and that culture, that feeling, was on full display in that outrageous hearing that we saw with michael cohen where the republicans on the oversight committee did everything but what they were supposed to do which was to engage in the truth and determine if the charges leveled by michael cohen who was donald trump's self-proclaimed

fixer, admitted to by the president for ten years, engaged in criminal conduct. as someone said on that committee, they weren't there to dispel the notion of him saying the truth. they were there to keep up the pretenses of the lies of the last ten years and congressman gaetsz fulfilling his duty in that and that's why you have the president call him up and thank his soldier for doing what he had to do. >> the thing is that, you know, if somebody were to say he feels he has to be a loyal foot soldier and become michael cohen, matt gaetz has to be michael cohen who michael cohen said to them, i was this for ten years, matt gaetz has to do it to get re-elected. he got elected by a huge margin. his district is ruby red. it doesn't feel like re-election is the reason to be so uber loyal you would potentially commit witness tampering. he's being investigated by the florida bar and could lose his law license. why risk all that if you're in

such a safe seat. why are republicans doing this? >> well, you know, and thanks for my friend for painting all republicans with a very broad brush. i hope you exclude me from that. >> house republicans. not the doctor, of course. >> you know, for my perspective, look, i think what you have with the congressman here is the congressman is voting how or behaving in a way that is what his district expects. the loyalty i think is to his base. the loyalty i think is to the voters who put him in office. unlike michael cohen who was not elected to anything, he has a constituency to respond to. yes, it is a ruby red district but the congressman represents his people and he fundamentally

believes that this is what his people wantses him to do. >> hold on, chris. one thing. because at the end of the day, is there something -- is there something more important than the fact that the core russ of his voters wants to hear and just hear you constantly -- they want to hear their representative going all-out for donald trump, being the new michael cohen for donald trump, but is there not something more important than that, your personal integrity, not wanting to lose your bar license if at what point do they reach a threshold where they say more country is more important if this guy did potentially commit crimes f that check he did sign in the oval office was part of a crime that's a bigger deal? >> but again, it goes back to the fact that from the republican perspective, you know, if i were the congressman, i would have tweeted out a message relative to cohen and all of those kinds of things and just, you know, attacking from

the standpoint of who is and what kind of witness he is, i would not have gone down that road. again, i'm not the congressman. i'm not elected to anything. but i think at some point, from the republican perspective, we don't believe a lot of stuff that cohen has said. we just don't believe it. >> why not? he knew michael cohen for ten years. >> well, he did, but, for example, michael cohen said oh, i have -- i did not want a job in the administration. >> that's not relevant to the crime, the alleged criminality. he had a check. it was in front of us, we saw it. >> it's not. >> did donald trump sign that check or not? >> i don't know. here's the thing, from the standpoint of cohen it goes back to his credibility and the whole administration thing, he was lobbying for the chief of staff job. everybody be knows that. that's nothing new. >> that's not -- let me go to

fernand. this what is republicans are doing essentially. they're trying to say that things that aren't relevant to the actual evidence that was brought to the table by michael cohen, are what we need to talk about. something about boxes, whether or not he's going to write a book or wanted a job. is that relevant in your view, fernand, to what donald trump signed a check to pay off stormy daniels and to reimburse michael cohen for doing so while he was president? >> of course it's not relevant. i take exception with one of the things that my friend dr. metzler said. congressman gaetz and every member for the united states congress for that matter don't owe loyalty to their constituents in their district, they're there to represent them, they take an oath and they mental loyalty to the constitution of the united states. certainly not to a president or to a man. it is to the concepts which make america great and have always made america great. the united states constitution. when they go out and obscure the

truth, overlook violations of the rule of law, and in essence, cover for a president of their party who is engaged in criminal conduct as testified to by michael cohen, it shows you what it is that this is mob-style tactics and they're playing the role of the mob enforcers protecting the kingpin boss. >> i'm going to give you the last word, you're not saying, chris, you represent every republican in the world but you have to do it in the segment because you're the republican guest. the reality is, isn't it the case that when if matt gaetz was to lose his law license, for instance, if he were to at some point be out of office, he cannot count on donald trump's loyalty, donald trump isn't going to care about him or give him a job he would be a loser to donald trump. there's nothing he's getting back. a question people have, why would republicans defend potential criminality if as fernand just said their loyalty

is supposed to be the country and constitution, not to one guy who at the end of the day doesn't care about them. >> it's alleged criminality. if he were to lose his license, guess what, he would join michael cohen. they both would be disbarred. >> you kind of proved my point. anyway, christopher, thank you very much. fernand will be back. >> thanks. >> coming up the 2020 field keeps growing and growing and growing and growing. we'll take a look at who still might jump in and make it grow even more next. ow even more next ♪ th♪ let me be by myselfat i lovein the evenin' breeze, ♪ ♪ listen to the murmur of the tall concrete, ♪

♪ send me off forever, but i ask you please ♪ ♪ don't fence me in. ♪ don't fence me in.

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what's the conclusion? are you running? >> so, this question about -- >> will you be running for president? >> so, um, that's -- that's a big question for us to think through. >> what's it going to take -- >> shortly -- shortly -- >> what's it going to take for you to say yes, i'm doing it? >> for me, it will -- it will -- it will really be family. >> beto o'rourke playing coy about 2020 telling his local dallas paper he's made his decision and he will announce it soon. that's called a deep tease in the showbiz business. form former joe biden, given his high name i.d. outperformance his fellow democrats in primary polls and head-to-head match-ups against trump. beto and biden would join a

crowded field of 2020 hopefuls and following bernie sanders who made it official this week and holding his first campaign rally in brooklyn at this hour. bernie, biden, beto, how will they shake up the race for president. tara and fernand, mira, senior director for president obama. first to you, nyer, the late toast join the table, how might beto o'rourke shake up the race if he gets in. >> he's certainly been a compelling candidate on the national stage for having got son close to the senate race in a state where frankly a democrat has no business winning given the way voter registration and turnout has worked in recent past. he can be compelling for millennial voters, the argument, now the interesting fact there, though, is that millennial voters by the time the election happens in 2020 will be the majority of adult voters, more

than boomers, something like 69 million millennial voters compared to 67 boomers and those millennials grew up with obama and biden and crazy uncle biden memes. there is a comfort level they might have with joe biden that is different than bernie sanders or beto o'rourke. >> that's a good name. alaska pollster, should be a hash tag ask a pollster. let's look at the polls, i price in biden was v.p. and name i. djts. sanders ran last time. let's look at these match-ups against donald trump with the three white dudes. trump versus biden, biden would beat him, trump versus o'rourke, o'rourke beats him by the same, sanders and trump kind of tie statistically, even thousanders -- thou sanders is two points up. >> we have to go by the numbers and numbers one cry tear yashgs

i've polled this over and over again, about to come out with a poll on this subject next week, the number one criteria that democratic primary voters are looking for is who can beat and defeat donald trump and if donald trump is impeached, mike pence. and i think the numbers show very clearly right now, joe biden, whether it's because of a combination of name i.d. his association as barack obama's vice president, or the fact that he's just the guy that folks are saying and rallying behind has the numbers. i think what's interesting about the o'rourke candidacy, he does, indeed, engage a lot of the younger generation, the charisma factor important in politics, but i don't think it's a coincidence, joy, there were