msnbc as well as on "the beat" tomorrow. i will be joined by bannon's associate who knows how he works, house intel david corn who's been in the dossier and all over the sory and strategist who worked against manafort in 2016 when he was doing some of this stuff. that's our show. "hardball with chris matthews" starts now. cohen doubles down. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in los angeles. the big news today is michael cohen has new evidence against the president. in a followup to his explosive testimony last week, cohen today appeared before the house intelligence committee in an all-day back room hearing. here's cohen -- >> hearings went very, very well. i believe that all of the members were satisfied with the statements and the responses that i gave to them.

i told them that any additional information that they want they should feel comfortable to reach out to my counsel, and i would continue to cooperate to the fullest except of my capabilities. >> well, today's hearing was behind closed doors, multiple reports indicated cohen showed up today with new evidence to back his allegation that the president's own lawyers edited his false statements to congress in 2017. cohen pleaded about the to making that false statement to cover up the timing of the president's efforts to build trump tower in moscow. here's cohen last week saying trump's lawyers changed that key part of his false testimony. >> which specific lawyers we viewed and edited your statement to congress on the moscow tower negotiations, and did they make any changes to your statement? >> there were changes made, additions. jay sekulow for one. >> were there changes about the timing? >> several changes including how

were they going to handle that message, and the message, ob, being the length of time the trump tower moscow project stayed alive. >> trump attorney jay sekulow denied the press's legal team made those edits. however, nbc news is now reporting cohen today backed up his allegation with new documents that show edits to the false written statements he made to congress. not only that but "the new york times" has now acquired eight of the 11 checks the president used to reimburse cohen for his illegal hush payments to stormy daniels. there they are. in other words, cohen left a paper trail that could be a treasure trove to investigators. this comes as a new quinnipiac poll shows that 64% of americans, almost two-thirds, said they believe the president committed crimes before he became president. the same poll shows that americans view michael cohen, who pleaded guilty to lying, as being more honest than president trump. catch these numbers, 50% of americans say they believe cohen more than his former boss, while

35% said they believe the president over cohen. that's a bad number for the president. joining me is democratic congresswoman jackie speier who was in that house intelligence committee hearing today, peter baker, chief white house correspondent for "the new york times,". thank you all for different perspectives. congresswoman, are you with the public on this that believes more of cohen than they do of trump in >> without a doubt. without a doubt. >> what about today, we're getting a report today that he doubled down saying the president's lawyers cut out, perhaps in this case, put him there to do that and helped him lie to congress. your thoughts? >> i would say the documentation that he provided us today will help us come to the conclusions that we will need to make about whether or not there was an effort to manipulate the dates and the information.

so i think it's important to point out it was michael cohen who said both that the oversight committee hearing and to this committee that he would make available the documents to support his positions. >> what this tells the american people are two things today you may have been able to get confirmed, probably did today in the backdoor hearings, number one is the president while he was running for president, was basically all the time playing big-shot businessman with moscow, trying to build an empire building over there, a bill land mark building in moscow across the red square at the same time he's telling the american people he will be their true representative dealing with a difficult country, russia. we're also finding out while he's president of the united states, meeting on the phone with putin and others, being president, he's also signing checks on a regular basis to pay off for stormy daniels. all of this is going on, this multitasking, what does it tell you? >> well, it tells me this is

nothing new for donald trump. it starts very young in his life in which he was always trying to beat the system. i think what we're going to find out over the next few months is that he's played every card to either suborn perjury and create a conspiracy to do so. i think whats going to haupt nt many people that are associated with donald trump is what michael cohen said in the opening testimony, that if you don't watch out, you're going to be in the same position that i am, going to prison. >> do we have a basically dishonest man in the white house? >> without a doubt. >> let me go to donny deutsche on this thing about the way in which the president's lawyers, there were cutouts, two people who had distance from the president for purposes of this editing michael cohen's testimony to congress with regard to the timing, especially, for this work for the trump tower in moscow. what do you make of his backing that up again today with documents? >> first of all, i want to answer your question to the congresswoman, you have a spectacularly criminal man in

the white house. anybody who's been in new york city 20 years -- worked in new york city like i have, known donald trump for 20 years, he's as dishonest and slimiest as they come and this is just the beginning. as far as michael, when people doubt michael, anything he said, you have to go into his mindset going into this. michael had everything to lose and nothing to gain. if he tells the truth, he gets a gold star but he's still going to prison for 30 months. if he lies -- we keep in mind there's 70 hours with mueller, dozens and dozens of hours with the southern district, hours with congress and the senate, the last thing he's going to come in and lie again, because he will get more prison time. when he says something in front of the american people, something as potent as basically they edited my statement, here is my statement, he's not lying. use common sense. that mad is telling the truth. >> basically the president is

subverting perjury here? >> that will be the smallest of his crimes, chris. i have said this for a long time. it's not about mueller, it's the trump organization, an enterprise that will be rico, the racketeer influencing corruption act, about organizations like this that are crime organizations, any way a person can lie and cheat and steal for his entire life, donald trump has. this is just going to be a pimple. >> athe rico statute was used against organized crime. it was written by the congress so they could catch guys like capone, modern character in the sipped kit, who basically sends signals through indirection, who talks like trump does, he says here's what isn't the truth, as i hear it. so you give it the way i'm just giving it to you. it isn't like do this, it's this is the word we've got to put out. so it's all by indirection. all of this crime gets done by a lot of different people without the person's fingerprints being on them. he doesn't have his fingerprints on the gun. that's what rico is about, and you say it applies here?

>> basically, rudy giuliani ironically was one of the first to use it. it's set up when you have multiple, multiple crimes, in the case of trump i believe bank fraud, money laundering, campaign finance, the trump university, the foundation, the inauguration, tons and tons and tons and basic businesses practice of them all. you put them all together and as you said the center guy, the mob boss, is isolated. this takes that off the table and he's responsible for all of the crimes. the other piece to you can also take back assets. they can take his buildings away. i think it will always end in the southern district. they don't just want to take this guy out, they want to take him down. he tried to undue what his forefathers did and starts to send a signal about who we are as a country. >> tough stuff. peter baker, the expert of "the new york times" reports your article today that the president's reimbursement payments to michael cohen are dated the same days he was attending to public presidential business. and one of the checks trump

signed was dated may 23, 2017, the same day he was overseaed with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu in israel. there he is. that day he was signing checks to cover up for stormy. another check for stormy is dated september 12th of that year, the day trump was hosting the prime minister of malaysia at the white house. another is dated the same day that the president held a ceremony of turkey, remember that thanksgiving thing they do, and spoke by phone to vladimir putin. furthermore, one of the reimbursement checks issued by trump was issued february 14, the same day trump asked james comey to drop his investigation of michael flynn. this intertwining of behavior, potentially criminal, in the small stuff affairs, sexual escapades, whatever you want to call them and at the same time he's dealing with the big stuff we're wondering about, what the hell is he doing with putin and why, and how does this relate to trump tower? it's all connected and you show

it's connected in time as well. >> it's very interesting, you see these parallel lives he's leading while sitting president of the united states is not just that there was money paid to stormy daniels during the campaign, it's he was still paying it off for the first year of his presidency. once a month he would sign a check for $30,000 to michael cohen to reimburse him for this money. and it did seem to coincide with just events on his calendar that show you the dichotomy between a president acting as head of state and a businessman who is signing checks to a lawyer because he's trying to fix some event that happened before and didn't want it to come out before the election. and these two para-lllel story lines take you through this first year and kind of open a window into his -- the complicated life he's been leading. >> to put it lightly. anyway, abc news is now reporting tonight that following the raid on his properties last april, michael cohen, quote, was

contacted by two new york attorneys who claimed to be in close contact with rudy giuliani. that's according to people familiar with the discussion, say the lawyers, quote, urged cohen not to leave the joint defense agreement he with the president while the president's apart was not explicitly ordered there was an implicit message if cohen hired these lawyers it could preserve or increase his chance of a pardon down the road. congresswoman, this whole question of a pardon being flashed in front of the face of these guys, really serious trouble facing long-term prisonment and the president's power to say here, body, play on my team, stick with me and you're not going signed, what do you think about that in terms of impeachable offenses, congresswoman? >> i think dangling a pardon, i think obstructing justice, i think suborning perjury, are all conduct that are high crimes and misdemeanors in my view, and would be the subject of an impeachment.

>> how did you react -- what for or against that exculpatory or probative, whatever, from cohen today can you tell us supports or doesn't support that idea that he was teased with a pardon? >> i can just tell you that we're going to have the transcripts out in a very few weeks, and it will be both revealing and explosive on yet another level. >> let me ask you one thing tonight, we're about to end this segment, but i want to go to peter baker for the news part of this thing. this roger stone thing, he was gagged by the judge. i don't quite understand the first amendment rights of judges to do this but he was told to gag, told stop talking and he has a book coming out, revised version of his book, basically who framed roger stone the point of it is. what do you make of that? is he going inside now? >> that's a good question. he's certainly poking the bear. the lawyers told the judge they didn't think about the book when she told them he had to keep

quiet. the book had basically been in process and was coming out and portions had come out in january. it somehow escaped their thinking. i don't know how the judge will buy that. she seemed pretty upset at roger stone at the last hearing she held but she restrained herself and didn't revoke his bail, simply made clear he as we not to do this anymore. whether she will decide this is enough is not clear but stone definitely seemed to be pushing her buttons a little bit and that's a dangerous thing for anybody to do in a federal court. >> how much of the reporting -- we get awaiting the result or report by robert mueller, how much of it depends on the papers and materials gathered from stone down in florida? how much is relying on going through that, prosecutors? >> they found an awful lot of stuff down there. an enormous amount of material. in fact, the question is how fast that can be processed and how material it is to their investigation. we hear all of this talk in washington that mueller's office

is getting ready to send a report of some sort to the attorney general bill barr. we don't know if he's holding back because he has to go through that or whether they feel like they have gotten ahold of what that material tells them. >> let me get back to, you have known trump over the years, you're not his buddy or anything, but you know him. what is his end game? how does he end up in the bunker? what will he do, run from the statute of limitations, run for the pardon, try to get ee reflected to keep himself out of prison? what's his end game? >> take it one step further, michael cohen in his final testimony, and i thought this and said this before, donald trump, we will not have a peaceful transition. donald trump, i believe whether he's going to be impeached, whether they're disqualifying him for running for office, even if he gets elected out, he will tell his people to take to the streets. i know that sounds extreme. that's who this man is. there's 30% of this country he believes he owns and he does

actually own them. the normal things we see, peaceful transition, i believe donald trump is not beyond starting a civil war. chris, i have known this man for 20 years. if you watch every one of his plays, he tees off what he is going to do. i think we're headed for a very ugly time in american history. i'm sad to say that. >> you know i'm sorry. thank you very much, jongwoman jackie speier, thank you very much and peter baker, expert, front page big foot of "the new york times" and donny deutsche, who knows this stuff -- and who knows trump. coming up -- donald trump's past is quickly catching up with him, don't you think, as the number of investigations pile up and up. and i said he wants a second term partly, because as i suggested, it would shield him from indictment another four years. statute of limitations, no indicts to power, all of these goodies he keeps in his bag. plus leon pa nettie comes to play "hardball." the danger of trump's actions on security clearance, did he just get taken to the cleaners by kim jong-un? don't you think so? plus the hypocrisy of donald

trump. >> all he has to do to get $5 million for a charity or charities of his choice is get his colleges to immediately give his applications and records. >> that's donald trump back in 2012 demanding barack obama's college transcripts. however, irony here, new report on efforts to conceal trump's transcripts all the way back to high school. we have a lot to get to tonight. stick around. stick around biopharmaceutical researchers.

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posture by him if the house democrats start to investigate him. true to form, the president is now refusing to cooperate. just yesterday we learned in the house oversight committee the white house counsel dismissed the committee's request for security claims documentation. meanwhile cnn reports the president intervened to help his daughter ivanka get her security clearance despite objections from the chief of staff john kelly and white house. they didn't think she qualified for this kind of top-secret clearance. last week "the new york times" did the same thing to her husband overruling objections to his son-in-law, jared kushner. why are these two people such a problem for the fbi that they can't get cleared? for more here's ted lieu, congressman from california and member of the house judiciary committee. thank you so much. it seems to me this whole investigation by the president, everybody, mueller, house democrats who are now in charge in new york district and new

york justice department up there in new york and southern district, they're all coming at him. they're coming at his kid, his soi son-in-law, they're coming at his past business practices. congressman, you have do know this is political war, you have a red line going after my past business and you're not going after my family. we're going to war and he's saying he's not give you nothing, we're going to stonewall you. your thoughts? >> thank you, chris, for your question. first thing i want the american people to ask why is the trump administration hiding information from the american people? the reason there are all of these investigations and the fact the house judiciary committee cast a wide net is because for the last two years, it looks like there's been a wide array of misconduct in what appears to be potential criminal behavior by donald trump, his family and his associates, and we need to conduct our oversight duties and investigate all of those incidents. >> do you accept the red line he put up, no focus on my family, no focus on my past business? almost two-thirds of the

american people according to the new quinnipiac poll today believe he was a crook before he came to the white house? >> chris, the law does not have a red line. if donald trump or his family members committed crimes, the house judiciary committee wants to know about it. and he if commits crimes that war high crimes or misdemeanors, we will have a conversation with the american people how to proceed. there are no red lines. we will leave no stone unturned. we're going to connect the dots if they are to be connected. >> where is this going to end up, cynthia? we have been talking about this for years with you. if trump said no mass, i'm not giving you anything, nixon tried that, you will turn over the tapes whether you like it or not, trump is acting like that never happened, he can somehow win this fight on evidence. >> to the except he's already given whatever evidence he gave to mueller, executive privilege, those are all waived. will he have to give all of that to the house. the question is those things he hasn't already given to mueller, who will force him to give

those, for example, security clearances? i believe the courts require him to do that. he's got a different argument about security clearances because whenever you're starting to deal in international affairs, there's a lot of deference to the president. because it's a security clearance and because there's these allegations out there of serious misconduct with kushner and khashoggi and what's app messages, in the end i think the court will require him to turn over all of that information. >> let me go to the congressman on this. it seems to me that's the problem here, hard rock -- what is it called, a rock and unstoppable force meeting each other. i get the fact robert mueller and you guys are the unstoppable force but i want to bring in reporter carol lee at duke university where former chief of staff john kelly just finished speaking. carol, what did we get from him? did he rat out the president or not? >> no, we weren't that lucky, chris. he was asked about the security clearances and whether he

intervened and he really didn't want to talk about it. that was very clear. he said he couldn't comment on it for two reasons, one because it's security can clearances and, two, because it's his belief whatever conversations he may or may not have had with the president about this fell under presidential privilege. and then he said something to the effect of, you know, the press doesn't always get it right and sometimes they get some things wrong in the story, if not the whole story and he repeated he wasn't going to talk about it. it wasn't something that he wanted to get into at all. >> anything else about his kids and why he had an incestuous term married, why does he have to have this romanov thing going on at the white house? why does he need his daughter, as smart as he might be to advise him on everything? and he has to get clearances for them from the fbi when they said they're not worthy of clearances? what is kelly's take on wa trump's obsession is with

nepotism? >> no, he really didn't go there. he's really diplomatic, frankly, in the way he answered a lot of questions. he was critical of some policies the president had like separation of children at the border, he blamed that on the attorney general. he didn't like deployment of troops to the border, things like that. he did say at one point that this being chief of staff was the worse job he had ever had but also the most important job he had, had. and he dropped a lot of hypothetica hypothetichints about the difficulty he had serving the president and being in the white house, the early days of the travel ban and saying there was an inexperienced group of white house official there's who didn't follow process. he went through sort of how he tried to put some controls around the white house. he denied that he felt like he was the adult in the room, which our reporting shows he certainly did feel that way while serve e ing as chief of staff. but he was generally very -- at times he invoked humor to answer some of the questions about how difficult it must be to work for

president trump. for instance, he said his advise to his successor was to run for it. >> wow. according to cnn -- thank you, carol lee -- down at duke. according to cnn, president trump's chief of staff john kelly and white house lawyer done mcghan to make the decision on daughter and son-in-law for security clearances did not appear he was tainting the process to favor his family. after both men refused, president trump pushed jared in regardless of what the fbi people said. just last week "the new york times" reported the president wanted his chief of staff and soim to run top security clearances overruling concerns about intelligence officials and white house's top lawyer. we said that. the decision was so troubling to kelly and mcghan they wrote memos documenting objections to trump's daughter and he denied he influenced the process over and over. let's take a look at that. >> that will be up to general kelly. general kelly respects jared a lot and general kelly will make

that call. i won't make that call. i will let the general, who's right here, make that call. >> there were a lot of misleaks about there being issued but the president had no involvement pertaining to my clearance or my husband's clearance. >> congresswoman, this is really troubling because the president has seen the white house as his personal property, as an acquisition of trump ink and , he brings his family with him and ignores procedures about who gets the top security information and they're apparently not telling the truth about it. where does congress come in on this? somewhe somewhe >> chris, this is not just a issue of nepotism like donald trump giving jared kushner some car to use. this is security clearance. the problem is the cia, fbi, john kelly and former white house counsel did not want to give jared kushner security clearance because he's a security risk. and he's a security risk because of all of his compromising financial positions, all of his foreign contacts.

he had to submit at least three security clearance forms. i had filled them out in the past, had to submit a form before congress, anybody who had to submit three forms would not have gotten clearance and may have gone to prison for making misleading statements and that's why congressman buyer and i have referred him to justice for potential prosecution. >> wow, thank you for that information. jared kushner's facing investigation for why he did get clearance. i wonder why the president wanted him despite he didn't get clearance. thank you very much, carol lee down in duke where coach k keeps winning. coming up, talking about the clearances and multiple investigations into this president and new miss maile activity in north korea which is scary and humiliating to our president and our country and north korea. you don't want to miss it. d north korea. you don't want to miss it.

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welcome back to "hardball." reports report that president trump intervened in security scleernss for his daughter ivanka and son-in-law jared and provided new information for the committees to look into. elijah cummings threat anticipated to subpoena the white house for documents related to the clearance protocol. the letter to cummings called the request overly intrusive and we will not concede the executive's constitutional

prerogatives. in a statement back couple,s responded there's a key difference between a president who exercises his authority under the constitution and a president who overrules career experts and top advisers to benefit family members and conceals his actions from the american people. i'm joined now by leon panetta, former director of the cia, defense department secretary, former congressman and former chief of staff to president clinton. thank you very much, mr. panetta. what do you make of watching this whole -- you have been through procedural arguments about clearances and who gets the i.d. to walk around the white house and top security clearance, what does it tell you when the fbi says no to two applicants? >> well, it is about national security. that's the reason we provide security clearances is to make sure that when it comes to highly classified information, that you are not allowing someone who could be a risk to be able to receive that

information. and, look, this kind of information is put together by cia officers and sources that are putting their lives on the line in order to bring this information to the attention of the president and those around him. to allow somebody who is a risk, a security risk, to access to that kind of information is to not only compromise that information, it is really putting our national security at risk itself. that no president ought to be allowed to do. >> what's your suspicion here, is that that jared is too close to netanyahu's government, too close to khashoggi? that sound ironic that both of them would be too close to him. is it fair he would give away the stuff, give away the information people were negotiating with, is that a fear? >> there is a security clearance process and it involves the personnel security officer in the white house, which investigates and does a

background check on anyone who's supposed to get a security clearance. obviously they registered concerns. what those concerns are, i don't know. i assume it's related to his contacts not only with the russians but with other foreign dignitaries as well. so because of that concern, that that information could be jeopardized, the recommendation of the fbi and the security office was not to give him a clearance. john kelly and counsel mcghan, obviously would have thrown the ball by the president in the hope that they would bypass, and the fbi did not do that and instead wrote memos to the record about why they were not going allow that to proceed. and the president went around them and allowed that security clearance to happen. that should not happen. i think the congress, if it's going to look at anything, has to look at how do you make sure

that when there is a security risk, that the fbi and the security people make that call, not the president or anybody else. >> what would it mean to you -- i'm not asking if you have had to do it, but you have been chief of staff to the president, keep things going. if you had to write a memo to yourself for the record if you did something you really didn't want to do, is that what they were saying? i did something i didn't want to do? >> well, look, i think it's for -- it's for the historical case, i'm sure, that both of them wanted to make sure that when history comes back, if they found that information was jeopardized because of allowing this security clearance, that they would not bear the brunt of blame for having granted it. so i think that was the reason they did it. i have never had to do that, thank god, but clearly, i think what was behind this was to try to protect their own reputation

with regards to this security clearance. >> speaking of security, here's a big question, meanwhile president trump responded to new evidence today, he did, that the north korea is rebuilding a key missile site possibly in preparation for another test. nbc news reports tonight the satellite images of the site -- there they are -- taking just two days after trump ace failed nuclear summit with kim jong-un shows the regime is quickly working to rebuild a site used to launch long-range missiles and at guess who? president trump said his first meeting with kim in singapore last june. however, here's the president today trying to explain it. >> it's too early to say, but we have to solve a problem. we have a very nasty problem there. we have to solve a problem. the relationship is good. i would be very disappointed if that were happening. it's a very early report. we're the ones who put it out. but i would be very, very disappointed in chairman kim, and i don't think i will be but we will see what happens.

we will take a look. it will ultimately get solved. >> mr. panetta, by the way, you missed this, there's the president saying that appeasing line of his, with a bronze winston churchill behind him on a shelf. here he is justifying kim jong-un's behavior with winston churchill behind him. he doesn't seem to get the fist connected if we call it that. your thoughts, why is he covering for kim? >> you know what, this whole thing was haywire from the beginning, to think that somehow he and kim could sit down and pull off an agreement that would denuclearize north korea was, i think, a basic mistake and a critical mistake by the president of the united states. and it's proven to be a mistake because this whole summitry between the two of them has

basically flopped, it's a disaster. and the north koreans now have gone ahead and started to improve their missile site with a clear message that they may very well go ahead and test another icbm. and the president of the united states is now stuck because he's given kim a world stage, he's given him a tremendous amount of credibility as a world leader by virtue of these meetings. he's lost leverage in that relationship. so the president one way or another has to regain some leverage here. i don't know how he's going to do it but he can't just do it by being nice to kim. >> yeah, flirtation doesn't seem to be work being. great to have you on, leon panetta. thank you for joining us tonight. >> good to be here. >> remember when donald trump was demanding to see president obama's college grades? guess what, in a new report, trump's allies apparently went to great lengths to prevent trump's own academic records from being exposed from his

military academy days. apparently he something to hide and is it does. stick around for a few minutes to find out what trump's hiding in his scores. that story is coming up next. ffe same quality of customer service that we have been getting. being a usaa member, because of my service in the military, you pass that on to my kids. something that makes me happy. being able to pass down usaa to my girls means a lot to both of us. he's passing part of his heritage of being in the military. we're the edsons. my name is roger zapata. we're the tinch family, and we are usaa members for life. to begin your legacy, get an insurance quote today. but prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered...

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because we know mom wants what's best. more beverage choices, smaller portions, less sugar. balanceus.org when i say con man, i'm talking about a man who declares himself brilliant but directed me to threaten his high school, his colleges and the college board to never release his grades or s.a.t. scores. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was michael cohen last week testifying that in 2015 the president directed him to threaten trump's schools to never release his grades. and now "the washington post" reports that trump's efforts to hide his grades went beyond what cohen described. according to the post in 2011 the headmaster at new york military academy got an order from his boss, find trump's academic records and he will

bury them. the pressure to prevent the disclosure of the records was coming from wealthy alumni of his school who were trump's friends. as "the post" reports this effort to conceal trump's grades happened days after donald trump challenged president barack obama to show his records to prove he had been a terrible student. just like with his false birther attack, trump had zero evidence attacking or backing his attacks on obama's academic record. let's watch. >> he was a terrible student, terrible. he went to ox departmental. i hear he was a terrible student. not like okay. i hearder was a bad student. how does a bad student then go to columbia and then go to harvard? how does this happen? let him show his records. we don't know anything about this guy. >> the people that went to school with him, they never saw him. they don't know who he is. crazy. if barack obama opens up and gives his college records and

applications and if he gives his passport applications and records, i will give to a charity of his choice a check immediately for $5 million. >> so what is it, mr. president, former candidate? is it barack obama benefited from affirmative action or he didn't even go to any of these schools? was he a phantom? trump tried both cards during the campaign and worked with the bad people in the country, the president's effort to hide his own grades is a contest of all of that boasting, by the way, about his iq over the years. that's coming up next on "hardball." up next on "hardball. fight cancer.

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what's in your wallet? so here i am, great schools, great brain, great success. i went to an ivy league school. i'm very highly educated. and i was a good student. i always hear about the elite, they're elite? i went to better schools than they did. i was a better student than they were. i was the first in my class at the wharton's school of finance. >> turns out none of that is true. welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump touting his academic success, claiming he was first in his class at wharton, he wasn't. because in 1968, the year trump graduated from bharten, his school paper "the daily pennsylvanian" published the list of 56 students who were on the wharton dean's list that

year. trump's name is not among them. in contrast according to "the harvard crimson" barack obama graduated magnum come laudy from harvard law school. i'm joined by chair, michael steele. hypocrisy is probably a word we've overused with this guy, but barack obama was an affirmative action beneficiary or something, he wasn't who he claimed to be. and it turns out trump may want well be anywhere near the claim he made, that he was mr. student. >> chris, he's like the wizard of oz. he's hiding behind a curtain. remember when that movie happened and they opened the curtain, it's this little guy, a little person like me. >> and what did he say? pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. >> that's a good one. but here's the bottom line, he's hiding behind that curtain with his lies. his grades, he's afraid people will find out what they are. the phony bone spur thing, he's afraid people will find out what that is. his tax returns, he may not be as rich as people think.

so it's a really sinks. and by lashing out at obama, it just shows that he can't get over his jealous at president obama. >> michael, your theory, i would lo your theory, your backstory on this. why was he obsessed with diminishing the first african-american -- let's face it -- to be president of the united states. that's a fact. that isn't identity politics or anything. everybody in america should have been proud of that fact. and he wasn't. he was furious about it. >> well, i think some of it is generational. you think, you know, at that -- at the age of the president, the time period in which he grew up, certainly in the 1950s, and the attitude that a lot of whites of that generation had about black success. it was not -- it was not achieved, it was given to them. it was not earned, it was somehow appropriated to them. and there grew over time a certain resentment around that, because there's always this sense that, well, the only reason you're there is because someone else got you there. and i think that played itself out.

that's why when you look at the success of obama, i mean, he's a smart guy. he's magna cum laude, went to great schools and he showed that. he would often boast that himself. and this would just twerk these guys like him. the irony of it is, show your grades, and if they're not that great, so what? you can create the narrative, yeah, i had a tough time in school, but look what i've been able to do, i built an empire financially, i'm successful in business, and i'm now president of the united states with a c-plus average, right? so there is -- but trump can't see it that way. it's the competitive nature, but i think there's also just that tinge of looking at a very successful black man and going, hmm. >> what did he mean, barbara, senator, what did he mean -- we're relatives, actually. distant, but we are. what does it mean to say, nobody knew him in school? that wasn't knocking him -- that

was saying he was a phantom of some kind! that he wasn't really in these schools. >> he has a -- i don't want to say hatred, he has this complex about barack obama. and you know, i hear what michael seas saying about other people saying, oh, well, certain african-americans got away with it, got a deal. you're talking about trump who was not only born with a silver spoon in his mouth, michael, but an entire -- you know, set of dishes and the refrigerator thrown in. this is a guy who had $7 million before he can say "hello, daddy." >> and by the way, for all of those who quibble about barack obama's academic success, he was named editor of the harvard law review in a blind test. nobody knew he was african-american. that's not how it works. he won on merit and academic ability. that's why he got these academic honors. anyway, during the 2016 presidential campaign while "the washington post" was working on a story about the time trump spent in the new york academy, he told "the post," i'm not

legislate y letting you look at anything. why would i let you look at my records, you're doing a lousy story. so i think he knew the problem, michael. >> yeah! exactly. the grades probably aren't the greatest and the best ever in the world of grading. so what? but that's the nature of the man. he is constantly in competitive mode. everything is transactional. everything has to redound to his benefit and ultimately make him look good. and so he can't show a "b" when he's been castigating someone like barack obama, whom everyone knows to be smart. and you know, in a way that would make that somehow problematic for him. so he's got to be competitive with him and put him down in the process. >> he's probably mad at you for using the word redound. these words are driving him crazy. senator? senator? >> you know, it's not about competitive. i think he can compete with barack obama in any level whatsoever. i worked with barack obama. i served with him.

brilliant doesn't begin to describe him. and you know what's so great about him? he's an old soul. he gets history. he understands it. but to me, it's about trump's narcissism. he wants people to think he's the smartest guy in the room. you have clips of that. he tells us, people, i was the greatest, you know? so he can't stand the truth, because the truth will bring him down. >> i was the greatest that was said by another american, mohammad ali, and he really did knock the guy out in the round he named. >> this is a different situation. >> thank you, former senator, barbara boxer. michael steele, thank both. up next, will the real michael cohen please stand up? there he is! the real one. you're watching "hardball." biopharmaceutical researchers.

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michael cohen was back before congress today in the similarity to the great ben stiller who place him on "snl" is striking. >> i recognize that some of you may doubt and attack me on my credibility. it is for this reason that i have incorporated into this opening statement documents that are irrefutable. >> this is a check mr. trump wrote me as reimbursement for hush money i paid to stormy daniels. and this is a copy of the check i wrote to miss daniels. i'm also including a copy of the threatening letter i sent to mr. trump's high school, warning them not to release his s.a.t.

scores. >> i have lied, but i am not a liar. and i have done bad things, but i am not a wbad man. >> in conclusion, i know that i was wrong. and i know it because i got caught. >> "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> mr. trump knew of and directed the trump moscow negotiations throughout the campaign and lied about it. >> -- michael cohen returns with receipts. >> in his way, he was telling me to lie. >> tonight, reports of new evidence backing up cohen's claims. >> i have no deals in russia. >> and new reporting on a trump campaign to keep cohen from