we have an unpredictable news hour, my thank you to our guests, we're grateful for having you and grateful to you for watching, "mtp daily" picking up our breaking news. good evening i'm chuck todd here in washington. buckle up, it will be a very wild hour. we'll be all over the map here in the area. you're looking at the house floor where in the next 20 minutes or so they're expected to vote on what they're calling anti-hate resolution which is a giant headache for the dcs. we're going to start with breaking news on the other side of the river. paul manafort is going to price. we're also going to find out for

how long he is going to prison and we will find out for how long. he faces up to 24 years for an array of financial crimes and he will face another sentencing next week in a separate case for lying to the special council for lying about many things his contact with russian agents. those lies in that case are part of the argument that the judge should view manafort as a blazing criminal. the only thing that could save him from prison time in these case social security perhaps a commutation or a full presidential pardon. mueller's team say they think manafort lied to him to augment his chances for a pardon. we have other big news involving pardons coming up in a moment. first let me bring in outside the courthouse, paul manafort,

our own ken dilanian. i'm also joined by sal wi wisenberg, bob bower, and car carol lee here onset, eugene robinson. ken, let me start with you, you're outside, we have reporting going on inside and outside, judge ellis, we know he enjoys moments in the sun. is this going to be a very drawn out process in the next hour? >> it appears so, chuck. two things have happened already at the starting of the hearing that i think set the tone. one is that paul administramana wheeled in in a green jump suit. his days of $10,000 suits are

over. she going to prison for some time, most likely a long time. the judge started the hearing by saying to the courtroom that paul manafort is not going to be sentenced here for anything to do with russian collusion. that speaks to the unanswered question that's will loom over the proceeding. many of the key questions we have about where paul manafort fits in, if at all with any kind of conspiracy with russia, that is not what this case is about. he was convicted here in virginia. tax and bank fraud, failure for foreign bank accounts. well before the trump campaign. he was committing crimes while on the trump campaign, but none of this had anything to do with russian collusion. i can tell you, chuck, they have been working through technical and legal issues so far, and just before we got on the air, the judge ruled that manafort should not get credit for acceptance of responsibility. that is important because had he gotten that credit, he stood to

have a slightly reduced insi sentence, but the judge ruled he will not get that credit and now they're in a 15 minute recess. >> thank you, ken hang on there, sal wisenberg, if you were manafort's attorney today, would you be preparing him for how long of a sentence? >> oh, he will go away for quite some time. my guess is, just total speculation, my guess that the sentence by judge ellis will be between four and eight years, if you made me pick, i would say about six years. which is a significant reduction from his guideline range, but also keep in mind as many have reported he faces a maximum of ten years in his dc case that can be stacked and run

consecutively. does judge ellis know that going in? and he assumes that going in? >> does he know what? >> obviously he knows -- does he assume another tough sentence is coming from dc so as he thinks about his she calibrating it? >> well, there is no question he assumes a tough sentencing coming from dc. whether or not he is calibrating it or says whether or not i'm not even going to think about that, i would sentence him to what i would sentence him to and i don't know. that is only what is in his heart. for me i think it would be hard not be affected by that. >> bob bower, what does mueller -- mueller obviously wants a tougher sentence in this court, too. does he change any of his strategy in trying to push the judge harder if he feels judge ellis is too light today?

i'm curious, where are you on sal's numbers there do you they is the range? >> i don't have a basis for questioning his judgment on that. i'm not sure. i think mueller is playing this by the book. i don't anticipate that he will take out frustration with ellis by taking noir actiother action upgrade the punishment that p l manafort received. >> gene, is there a influencing, a point in this where you sit there and you say boye, jud, ju ellis is trying to send a message to mueller. >> it's not the first time. it has been that way from the beginning. when he expressed his displeasure at what the prosecutors were doing, they were squeezing him to get information on mfanafort, what s

what prosecutors do all of the time, but he was particularly that he did not like the fact that he was being squeezed on nonrussia stuff to get to russia. that was his complaint. so none the less, i do expect that the judge probably e will go by the book. you know, he began today by saying this is not about russia. but it is about crimes. it is about crimes that paul manafort committed. so white collar, criminal, paul manafort, i think they now face a sentence that i think he'll try give a sentence that he would have given any other defendant i think. >> the president's campaign chairman is going to prison. i know we're numb to this by now, but -- history -- people will read about this and go wow.

>> right there is no comparable scandal that anyone can come up with. it is different and bigger in some ways. the collection of crooks, con men, and drifters at the highest level of nominee for president of the united states is breath taking. >> one of the things that comes to mind hearing the prescription of paul manafort, wheeled in, unshaven, it was three years ago when he was a totally other person that we all coffered and it is just, if you think back then. i think we're two years into a trump president sane his campaign manager would go to jail. and all of the other piece that's we have seen since. >> let's go to the pardon part of this. saul, if you were the lawyer for

manafort, would you tell your client don't ask for a pardon, as for a communation. bell no, i don't think i would. i don't think you should argue against yourself. bargain against yourself, and i would rather ask for the pardon and get the communation. obviously something to consider is the harsher, just has a political matter, judge el lit, the ease dwrer are be for president trump to come in and say this is just ridiculous. this man is being sentenced to this draconian sentence when the information of him was basically over.

crump did not rule this out. this is the "new york times" post interview. a pardon for manufacture was never discussed, but i would never take it off of the table. why would i take it off of the table. he said we're in mccarthyism, this is no better than mccar think. i can see they want to do something but then say hey, i didn't pardon him, i just cut his sentence, but as a way to try to rationalize it, at least with republicans in the senate that may not like the move. >> that is what george w. bush did with scooter libby. so it doesn't sound a lot like the way donald trump operates. even at manafort's age he could be serving for quite some time. my own impression is, and it is

impossible to know, that he will take the action that he thinks serves his purposes. i disagree with saul, by the way. i don't think his case is strength strength strengthened if two judges throw the book at manafort. it could be more aggressive that the president behaves, i think the fire storm that follows could affect all of this. >> i have a constitutional law question for you guys and i don't think you're going to have the same interpretation but i don't know what that is. article two section two says the following about the president's powers. he shall have the power to grant reprieves and pardon ex-septembexcept in cases of impeachment.

that can be interpreted so many different ways. our own staff meeting we came up with three different ways to interpret it. it could mean anything that could impact the president, it could mean about the impeachment of others, or it could be able a specific impeachment of anybody in the country. how do you interpret that afraid? first, saul. >> i have never heard of those other spreptations you're talking about. i think it is pretty straig straightforward that he doesn't have the impeachment power. i thought the real question on the pardon which i think you talked about before is if he is dangling to a potential witness, could that constitute

obstruction of justice, and i think bob and i both agree on that that it can. >> i agree, i think that is clearly a case of obstruction. i think the constitution provides pretty consistently that the president has no power to interfere with impeachment. he can't protect others that have been impeached, or block the senate or house from impeaching them. nor can he do so in his own case. the senate has the should power to convict. >> what do you think of empowering people that could be helpful to you. >> certainly my view of that is, and it goes back to the point that saul made earlier, i agree that he is pardoning people for crime that's he believes might wind up being vafled in or

reflect in his situation. if he is trying to block witnesses, and i think we're back to the question that is a real one of whether or not she committing obstruction of justice for which he can be impeached and leave office. >> to pros kus him for witness tampering based on the use of the prom of a pardon, that you have to have crystal clear evidence because there is so much power that the president does have to empower people. and for himself, president trump said many things and potentially done many things in terms of dangling pardons that are not very smart. >> here is rudy giuliani last

night, moot court is over, over the last period of eight to ten months several lawyers and reporters have asked me will the president pardon a number of people that will come up in the investigation. i can tell you the president said he will not consider a pardon now nor will the president give a pardon now. i have never given a different answer from that. a lot of -- -- the world now is doing a lot in that response. >> that is what we heard from the president, too. that is very intentional. i think that jougiuliani doesn' know what the president will do half of the time now. and now is as in right this second. so that is part of it and you have to do that when you're speaking for this president, but it second-degree hard to know

where the president's mind is on this day today. so many pieces are moving around now. you can kind of get a sense of how he was viewing that, but you can't just look at the mueller investigation and the people who are surrounding that without taking all of this other stuff. >> we don't know if his pardons were meant to send a message, but the pardons that he did do in the summer of 2017 and 2018, let me read you the crimes he pardoned them for, contempt of court, perjury, campaign finance law laws. >> yeah, i don't see bank robbery or anything. >> all options are on the football because all options are on the table. he doesn't do a sixth month plan.

he will wake up one more, watch fox and friends or another cable television program, and make a decision about what he will do here. >> that is right, if mft goes to jail, and there is steve ducey sitting on his couch. >> he looked terrible. look how bad he looks, and then will come the pardon tweet. >> everybody, go ahead. >> well, just again, you're all talking politics, has a matter of criminal prosecution, you would need really smoking gun crystal clear evidence that he promised to somebody a pardon if they didn't tell the truth or tell the full story and that is very difficult from impeachment. that will be a very very hard case to make criminally, that's all. >> and to keep the moot court

going, i believe that saul is overstating that case, i don't know if the standard is quite as high as he articulated. >> i knew this would be moot court, i was looking forward to it. i'm pausing you adequate to come back. we're going to sneak a break here. we're keeping a close eye on the virginia courthouse. we'll bring you the breaking news once we learn it and watch the breaking news on the house floor where they will take note right now. as that rift grows in the democratic caucus over congresswoman omar's comments. congresswoman omar's comments. to be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth.

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[ sighing ] ♪ oh my momma she gave me ♪ these feathered breaths ♪ ♪ oh my momma check in from afar with remote access. and have professional monitoring backing you up with xfinity home. demo in an xfinity store, call, or go online today. welcome back, the big news about the president dangling pardons is bad news for michael cohen's credible. cohen told congress that he never asked president trump for a pardon.

but cohen directed his attorney to reach out to the president's legal team about a pardon. so the gang is back, saul, bob, carroll, eugene, carol, i'll start with you here. we had a stat that showed more of the public believed cohen than the president, 50 to 35, and we joke thad is a credibility problem. michael cohen was not the most credible person, thats amazing. >> and it helps the president's argument. >> but what does it help thousand? >> he is already a proven liar, everything he says is lies, he says if you're not paying really close attention to it it can sound like he didn't come and

tell the truth. if you're michael cohen don't you go into this next testimony making sure every word you say is absolutely true and bullet proof. >> i can see why the white house sees a chance to knock cohen down, but this didn't help the president's story because the president's story is the attorneys are reaching out to cohen. >> they were talking to this guy. >> so the president could say well my lawyers did that. >> if you want a cloud of c confusion. he says i never sought a role in the administration when everyone else in the administration knew he wanted a role in the administration. and this is undercutting his credibility. >> bob bower, it continues, i always thought it was a real

risk for democrats at the house to make michael cohen, a very extraordinarily flawed witness as essentially the first witness against the president. i know -- he has been the first star attraction. we all knew going in this was a problem, and he could not even get it right. >> i make two points in response to that. first while i realize the situations are different, by the same token john dean was the star witness against richard nicks nix nixon, and the power of the witness comes with the role they had with the president. so he is really indense penceble. the second point i make is his credibility took a hit. in the long term he opened up a line of quiinquiry. they were shaping up their

testimony, preparing as michael cohen was, and i would conclude by linking that to the issues that were raised about the trump organization payment of legal fees, what their intention was in paying fees. >> i don't think anyone is surprised that michael cohen has been out for michael cohen all of the time. you can make a case that it was consistent with everything that we learned about michael cohen. >> well, here is what i would say about that and bob bower made a very important comparison which is that michael cohen to john dean. here is the difference. when john dean decided to go over to the prosecution team, he told the truth and he was

incredibly well prepared by his lawyer. the senate watergate committee. this was, i have to say, failure in preparation by his lawyer and i don't care if his lawyer is pro bono or not. you would shed your client and you would say look, you're going out there to tell the truth about everything, the good and the bad, and to just take one example, to say he never defrauded a bank, completely inconsistent to the facts, he admitted to in the southern district of new york his attorney should ask for a resense and say you can't say that, here is what your plea papers say, and here is the crazy thing about it. cohen, the stuff they caught him not telling the truth about is all stuff that is not that port. so for god sake, admit you

wanted a job. admit you defrauded a bank, you already plead guilty to those facts. but the stuff he testified to has been corroborated by his plea in the southern district of new york. i can guarantee you he didn't talk about the hush money payments, and they did believe him. so i think it was a very unfortunate preparation of this witness by his lawyer. >> is that fair? he makes a strong case about preparation. >> in fairness, lawyers can only have so much sway with their clients. we begged him, i assume, to stop tweeting. who knows what they were working with here. they probably got 97% of it the way they wanted, and maybe because he is not the best client in the world they slipped off of the road. >> guy back to this is the

danger of michael cohen, and the danger of all of the people you're trying to get to flip. >> right, yeah, he lies about this and that. in part this is the nature of this sort of pleading. they get caught and they don't want to talk about it for a long time. i think a basis of a very good point that not that the lawyer -- not that cohen's lawyer had complete control over what he said, you don't know what they're going to send. >> he has a client that doesn't always tell him everything. >> in some ways you have michael cohen that has just done this for so long, and he is just trying to turn over a new leaf, and you're seeing a little bit

of that. >> you are who we thought you were, michael cohen, anyway, bob bower, saul wisenberg. thank you, guys, we're still keeping you around, we still don't have paul manafort's sentence, that's why we have you. panel you have to stay, too. what can't brown do for you? apparently brown can't run for president. what ohio senator's decision might mean for the democratic field. r's decision might mean for the democratic field. hey there people eligible for medicare.

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coming up in 2020 vision, we have a brown out. brown says he is out of the race. >> we fight for the values, for the dignity of work, it's how we govern govern, how we win. >> he said today that he will continue that fight from the senate, not the presidential campaign jail. he had been touring the early primary states with a simple message. dignity of work. dignity of work. >> brown said today he expects that idea will be part of the democrats messaging in 2020. frankly if you listen closely on the trail, his message was maybe already resonating.

>> we have to reward and recognize the work, right? >> there is dignity in all work and career professionals. >> we have to give it the dignity of the work that is being performed. >> well, brown's decision not to run opens up more room in the so-called moderate lane. facebook someone that is supposed to appeal to the middle class working voters. that joe biden and bet beto o'rourke. we hear that joe biden is on the verge of announcing. more on mtp after this. ouncing. more on mtp after this -i'm not calling him "dad." -oh, n-no. -look, [sighs] i get it. some new guy comes in helping your mom bundle and save with progressive, but hey, we're all in this together. right, champ?

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welcome back, after three days of discussion, debate, and controversy, the house of

represe -- house of representatives condemned antimuslim sentiment, racism, hate in general. that resolution came in response to a congresswoman omar's comments that were considered antisemetic. whether or not to include her name in a resolution sparked by her remarks is deeply divided democrats. with me now is casey hunt. the panel is still here. so casey, all right, there is a couple things here, we have michael steel here, who is intrigued about why, what the republican plan was on this and if there was one or if it was implemented too late to have this sort of chunk of no votes, but a majority of republicans voting with democrats. what just happened on that front? >> the final vote was 407 to 23 with steve king voting present.

i'm sure our panel can explain why because he has been the target of these in the past. it didn't seem like there was a concerted plan. our initial analysis and take is that this is two different groups of republicans that voted now for a reason. first you have a lot of trump supporters that voted no, you also have congressmen that may have been frustrated by nancy pelosi referencing the president and his language on the floor in the context of this resolution vote talking about what he has encouraged and made himself tieing into this. this is one piece of it, by liz cheney, number three in the house, voted know on this.

this is a resolution that condemned anti-semitism, condemns hate speech. so why would you vote against it if you're someone like liz cheney that is politically ambitious, considered to be someone in the political moment in a shrewd way? they're angry they lumped other things in there with this anti-semitism resolution. and frankly there was a lot of house democrats that are upset with this. and they expressed disappointment that they did not have a bill that was just on anti-semitism. in this case, the progressives did not back down. she is telling people that she didn't intend it to be antisemitic. she wasn't aware that the

language was a trope, but it has offended jewish and nonjewish democrats in the congress. so she is trying to walk a fine line. that is my sense of why some of these republicans went the way they did. >> look, i just want to, guys, let me just read you a portion of this resolution. it is one of those like what didn't they put in here? white supremacists of the united states continue to exploit bigotry and weaponize hate, targeting traditionally persecuted people. jews, muslims, lbgtq, the shooting at emanuel ame church, synagogue shootings, this obviously got to the point of absurdi absurdity. it was like okay, we don't want

to offend anyone now. >> right, and they want to get past this. get it through, and get on and this, you know, this is welcome to the majority, actually, democrats, frankly this is a problem, it will create scratchiness and issues and controversies and question of identity. it is a kind of problem that the democrats should be happy to have. because they have some power now. and compare this to where they are now to where they were a year ago. and you would have to say okay, you know, this is not easy, but you would rather deal with it than deal with being completely powerless in washington. >> we said it before. when you're in the minority it is easy to be united. when you're in the majority suddenly everyone has repeating agendas. >> governing is hard. and this is a caucus that has a number of first time lawmakers, a number of people recruited

because they didn't have a background in government. no experience necessary. so there will be bumps in the road, they want to talk about the president and gun control, and they are talking about whether or not they should include the armenian genocide. >> it seems line the honeymoon period is over for nancy pelosi. and that reads like someone that someone who lost control of the car. >> just keep it and i seem to remember a time for the remember majority in the house, we were unsure if they would defaelt on their their debt. >> just you wait, eugene.

>> point well taken. >> casey at all, is there any sort of get him to meet with rabis that criticize israel? is there a man to educate her on some of these if she is truly surprise thad some of her criticisms are long-time ant anti-semitic tropes. >> there was discussions about having member to member discussions with omar. and they are more familiar with these tropes and stereotypes, but it didn't take long for it to happen again. she is much more dug in, and they are defending it as we have to have some grounds to

legitimately criticize the government of israel. they have been unable to separate that discussion from these difficult conversations. all right kacie hunt,ly let you go. all of this talk of one member of congress makes her a target and i understand the concern about putting her name in this resolution and that does deserve some attention as well. paul manafort's sentencing still under way. they just came back from recess, so maybe we will learn the official sentencing in a minute. e official sentencing in a minute. ♪ ♪ i can do more to lower my a1c. because my body can still make its own insulin. and i take trulicity once a week to activate my body to release it, like it's supposed to. trulicity is not insulin. it starts acting in my body from the first dose and continues to work when i need it, 24/7. trulicity is an injection

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welcome back, tonight i'm obsessed with what socialism means to people. gallup polled this issue this time and last year. the change in machine is remarkable. for instance in 1949 12% said socialism means inequality. 34% said it means government control. but here is the number that caught our attention. it is 6. that is the percentage of people that say socialism means being social and getting along with people. that wasn't even a choice in 1949 for what it's worth.

that got us thinking about ot r other isms that could use redefining. if you like to commune with people, does that make you a communist? how about if you're into fashion, are you a fascist. if you're left-handed are you a leftist? are you a business person that dictates will thors? dictator, anyone? if your a big reader and you dig a lot of authors are you an authoritarian. so if you're about to see commercials for fine products, and as i introduce the break, i will act just like someone who works in the nation's capitol, gisz that makes public highwme . me.

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well, it's time now for "the lid" and we're still awaiting paul manafort's fate. carol, eugenie michael are back, but we did learn the fate of another person today, and that was sherrod brown. carol lee, it's -- look, sherrod brown had hired staff, so this was done. michael bloomberg had hired staff. this was done. yet all of a sudden this month michael bloomberg is a no and decides he doesn't have a path. sherrod brown, who i think we now found out he didn't have the burning desire. if you wouldn't do this -- you wouldn't say no. this is your last shot if you're in the sherrod brown career lane. he clearly didn't have the fire in the belly. but me thinks someone called up these guys to let them know they're running and his name may have been joe biden. right? >> i think yes. i middle easteean, look, joe bi point everybody would be be very surprised if he didn't get in the race. >> sherrod brown and michael bloomberg would be the most

surprised. >> they might change their minds. yes, we've been here before with biden, but we haven't really gotten this far in terms of what the people around him are saying, you know, the moves that he's making in terms of potentially lining up staff. and it's literally his last chance. i mean, he's not -- and i think that that plays a huge role in this for him. >> gene robinson, james carville dropped -- boy, he dropped a tough line on joe biden today in "the new york times." i hope we can put it up here in "the new york times" story. democrats, even though ideologically aligned with mr. biden harbor severe doubts that the party could put forward a nominee who would turn 78 shortly after election day 2020. the only the organization in the world that is seen and run by 80-year-olds is the roman catholic church. i mean -- >> uh-huh. >> first of all, i'd love to know how the backstory between carville and biden. let's set that aside. that is a challenge for joe biden because he has to be

perfect when it comes to his health. >> yeah, he does. look, it is an issue. it's not that his likely opponent, president trump, is a spring chicken. >> correct. >> but still, 78 running for president. that is, you know, that's further than we've gone before, and that's not, you know, is that today's democratic party? i mean, that's going to be the -- going to be the question. it is -- you know, we were talking earlier -- joe biden, if he gets in the race can essentially clear out the moderate lane. >> looks like he's clearing out at least the moderate lane. can't clear the field. >> there is a crowded progressive field that has a lot of support and a lot of money. to question whether or not beto o'rourke gets in. it's not clear which lane he plays in or whether he tries to straddle both lanes. but there is a lot of, you know, there is a lot of opposition out there to joe biden. he doesn't just get this -- >> can i remind some people of something? that he's basically been in

three competitive environments his whole life on his own. two of them when he ran for president. those didn't end well. one was when he won his first race for the united states senate in 1972. the point is, we've seen -- you know, he had a -- we know he had a good fastball, but does he still have a good fastball? >> you also have to remember, as unfair as it is, these things tend to be self-reinforcing. if you're al gore and have a reputation for lying or misstating or exaggerating, people look for exaggerations. if you're joe biden, you're going to be on camera every day exhausted and any moment that your face is slack, that your attention wanders, that you seem to be nodding off, that's going to be a meme. how does he deal with that? >> i remember a delaware senate race with a guy named bill roth and carper. carper probably wasn't going to win unless there was a bad moment for roth. bad moment for roth, game over. >> biden fell asleep during obama's speech on taxes and the

deficit. >> you try listening to his speech on taxes and the deficit. all right. i was just going to say, touche. i have to go. at least we leave you with a laugh. carol, eugene, michael, thank you very much. saul and bob are still waiting. up ahead, unless it's manafort, it's a case of mistaken identity. if you're turning 65, you're probably learning about medicare and supplemental insurance. medicare is great, but it doesn't cover everything - only about 80% of your part b medicare costs, which means you may have to pay for the rest. that's where medicare supplement insurance comes in:

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>> you really have, i moon e, you've really put a big investment in our country. we appreciate it very much, tim apple. >> that's the president calling apple's ceo tim cook tim apple. never mind, there is a name placard right in front that says tim cook, but still he's apparently tim apple. hey, man, you got to think cook's happy about that. everybody keeps saying, oh, you're the guy that's not steve jobs. anyway, if you think that was a one-off, i have someone else for you to meet. >> i may ask maryland lockheed, the leading woman's business executive in this country, according to many. >> that would be maryland hewson, aka marilyn lockheed of lockheed martin. mr. president, i know you've named your business after yourself, but not everyone names the businesses after themselves. for every michael bloomberg and henry ford and walt disney.

general motors, general electric and general mills, none of them were in the military. cardinal health didn't serve in the vatican. and bed bath & beyond is not a partnership of three people. to put it simply, you can't always name a man by the company he keeps. that's all for tonight. we'll be back tomorrow. more "mtp daily," of course. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. good evening, ari. you're in waiting for paul manafort sentencing mode. good luck. >> thank you. we expect it any moment. thank you, chuck todd. there is big breaking news here. at any moment, as mentioned, a federal judge in virginia will be sent ansing donald trump's former campaign chief paul manafort. we know this will happen soon because they've already had one recess and are running late. we expect at 6:00 p.m. in this hour, we expect to get the sentence. this could be the biggest, most damaging day ever in the mueller probe so far. we know that because manafort faces up to 24 years in prison in thero