nicolle wallace starts now. presidency would somehow evolve into a much greater place for aloha and namaste, everyone. trump. and that just didn't happen. it is 4:00 in new york city. shine doesn't have a magic wand. i'm john heilemann, in for he came in to do this job but at the end of the day the president is the president, and the news nicolle wallace, contrary to what ali velshi just said. media, like ourselves, we're president trump couldn't stay in just covering what the president the glow this morning about the does. so he grew frustrated with sentence to paul manafort, to shine. they were not sort of natural -- lenient it gives new meaning to there wasn't a lot of natural the phrase soft on crime but instead trump seized the news chemistry there and i think at the end of the day they decided cycle and turned it back to a to go separate ways and shine, topic you would think he would it's important to point out, it rather avoid, his former fixer staying in the orbit. michael cohen. he's going to be an adviser to trump tweeting seemingly out of the re-election campaign but no the blue about the testimony on longer in the white house. >> jim, i raise this question capitol hill all of nine days with you, in another world, a ago. here's that tweet -- normal world, the world you and >> bad lawyer and fraudster i used to inhabit, it was not an michael cohen said under sworn testimony that he never asked for a pardon. unconventional thing a couple of his lawyers totally contradicted years into the administration, him. you start to turn your eyes he lied. additionally, he directed asked towards re-election, there would me for a pardon. be some people who were white i said no. he lied again. house officials would would he also badly wanted to work at leave the white house and go work on the campaign. the white house. he lied. i believe that happened in your a lot of lies going on there. not only can that tweet be white house around -- right around this time. considered an act of retaliation why should we not think that against cohen, a witness who is this is just, you know, getting

ready for re-election as opposed actively cooperating against trump, it's also a brand-new to kind of what the way it's initiative that trump had a being portray ed is shine got fired and the job on the explicit conversation about a campaign is face-saving gesture? pardon when cohen was still lying on trump's behalf. >> because the campaign has come to be the place everybody goes we have been hearing for months to dump the bodies. about trump's witnesses and when you get fired from the white house, they put you on the mueller's investigation but this is the first time we've been re-election campaign. i have never met bill shine, i'm hearing trump may have been personally involved in those sure he's good at his job but discussions. needless to say, trump's tweet he's the fifth communication has opened him up to even more director that's lasting so 0 questions about whether he days for one good reason, every dangled pardons in front of any morning the president of the united states wakes up and blows of the other convicted felons up their communications plan when he gets on twitter. that was once in his inner that job is impossible. circle. and that's a topic under nobody can stay there because scrutiny by at tleeft three you have got an erratic leader personal bodies. at the top and they can put him robert mueller's special counsel investigation, southern district wherever he wants, they can put of new york and house a new person in that job, fourth intelligence committee. but as if that wasn't enough chief of staff, five communication directors, more potential peril on the pardon lawyers than you and i could front, trump also just today count but because the rot begins appeared to leave the door ajar at the top. to, guess what? >> one of the things -- i a pardon for paul manafort. believe this jay mayor piece in >> i feel very badly for paul manafort. "new yorker" you were quote in i think it's been a very, very tough time for him, but if you and rung a lot of bells this weekend with shine going out seemed incredibly well timed or

notice, both his lawyer, a maybe one of the things that highly respected man and a very highly respected judge, the precipitated his departure, from judge said there was no jane mayor -- a source has been collusion with russia. complaining shine hasn't been this had nothing to do with aggressive enough. late last year trump said shine collusion. there was no collusion. it's a collusion hoax. promised me it would get better it's a collusion witch hoax. but it got worse. trump thought he was getting roger ailes but instead he got i don't even discuss it. the only one discussing it is roger ailes' gopher. talk about this a little bit and you. i haven't discussed it. the shine perplex. >> shine, of course, was the >> that's new, collusion and person who was the lienup guy. witch hoax. that's where we start today with he went around and cleaned up some of our favorite reporters the messes from roger ailes, and friends. phil rucker, white house bureau from bill o'reilly, from all of chief of the "the washington them. post," matthew miller, former he is not the guy who makes the chief justice of the justice pretty pictures, he's the guy department, former denty who manages the talent that assistance attorney the harry litman and msnbc national helped trump get elected. so perhaps trump didn't exactly political reporter przybyla. it's great to see you. get what he wanted but as jim i wish you were here at this said, no one is going to get him desk with me. i want to start out with you, what he wants because trump is trump and he's going to do his harry litman, and start out with own thing. i do think it's very possible this question, it seems to me, the article was the tipping and i'm no lawyer, it seemed point for trump. there's one thing trump hates like donald trump may have opened himself up to additional and that is to be portrayed as

someone's pawn -- >> stooge. legal exposure. >> he's being told what to do by am i right or am i wrong? sean hannities and shine is >> you're right. he is the worst client of all there to communicate the fox time. every time he opens his mouth, message, he hates that kind of it's more problems for him. stuff. that could well have been the he hears a witness that makes all of the sense in the world and sdny and congress might both final stau straw. >> is it strikes me as kind of ask, really, mr. president? where were you? scandalous one of the things what did you say to michael jane wrote about in this piece, cohen? what did he say? bill shine was more poernlly involved covering up the record is this the only time you have spoken about pardons? of roger ailes with respect to he so far skated because of his sexual harassment in the position as president he's been workplace than any other single able to allude actually asking person i know of and it's questions. perhaps he does it again here. amazing to me he glided into but you have to imagine ned this job with almost no comment flood and all of trump's lawyers about that. it did not become a matter of are cringing once again to hear public controversy that bill shine was going to the white him basically admitting, yes, we house, given some of the dark parts of what he had done at fox had this conversation. come and ask me about it. news. he wasn't just a annual fox news >> matt miller, i ask you, guy, he was involved in a lot of you're more of a scholar of dirty stuff. presidential and legal matters >> he went to work for a guy who than i am but it seems to me has been found to pay often two it's possible donald trump in two-plus years in the white women with slush money, lineup house has mentioned the word of 18 women during the campaign pardon in public more than all who made allegations of of our previous presidents harassment. this was a guy who stuck by rob combined. what is that about? porter, who is the white house >> i think it's very clearly staff secretary, after it had

about sending a message to been revealed, really horrible witnesses and defendants and pictures of battery on his wife, others who are facing this difficult choice about whether and he was the guy who, of to cooperate with investigators course, went out and endorsed and tell everything they know, potentially implicating the moore. president or president's family so the president is a walking or other people close to the disaster in this area. so everyone is sort of like president or whether to sit and not talk to them and hold out pales by comparison but you're right, this is part of the trump until the end of a trial or a phenomenon, that he is brought guilty plea knowing that at some us all down to this very base day the president might be there level so that this no longer for them. i think that's why he sent that rings alarm bells and practically anyone can walk in message in private. the door, trump walked in the as you allude to, it's been door, why not him? reported his previous attorney >> phil, jen made a point john dowd had conversations with earlier that trump doesn't like to be seen as a stooge or puppet mike flynn and paul manafort. it's why maybe he had this and the notion he's being pushed around or controlled by outside discussion with michael cohen. it was a remarkable thing for him to put on the record. forces annoys him. no one knew that until he put it out there today. this story pointed out the extent to which trump is in and i think it's why he would constant communication with sean have said it so much. hannity. there's the bill shine element to the story. and yet today we have trump on we're the only ones talking about it. it's not true. twitter tweeting, thank you at he's tweeted about it. he brought it up in other interviews. fox & friends, great show. it's been a topic of so it doesn't seem as though -- conversation oftentimes brought trump may have gotten sick of up by him as it was in this

tweet today. bill shine but that story and controversy around it does not >> heidi, i ask you, there's seemed to have turn donald trump against fox news. reporting in "the new york times" about the fact trump's >> i don't know that we're ever lawyers have offered pardons or going to see trump turn against discussed pardons with paul fox news as long as the talent manafort and michael flynn on fox continues to praise his presidency and his agenda. previously. this pardon talk, it's been a constant feature and obviously but in many ways, shine was just sort of the nexus. on some level it's because he was the dplu that brought the there's more legal jeopardy and white house and fox together. it was shine who helped arrange more people around trump that has been in legal trouble than for sean hannity to do these any president in history. interviews at all of the big but as we get a sense how much international summits and to be this is going to become part of alongside the president as he the fabric of the discussion, especially in a relationship toured the border down in texas with some of these people who a week or two ago, a month or are convicted felons or soon to two ago rather. so shine played that role, but be convicted felons, what do we somebody else is going to just step in and play that role going make of all of that and where that discussion is headed and forward. it's not like there's going to what we should make of it? be a breach here between trump >> i would say the backdrop to and his favorite network. >> we all know that trump really all of this if i take you back only talks to fox news but it is to the speculation to what would still striking to see the happen with paul manafort is there were only two possible graphic. explanations to explain his let's put up the numbers on behavior and why he wasn't being more cooperative. interviews, news with donald even to this day the special trump, fox news 44, abc news, counsel's office said he was not

nbc news, cbs news, 10 and cnn offering very much information. the big goose egg there. so the two possible explanations would be one, he was expecting a jim, you worked in the white house where the president had pardon. or two, whatever would happen to certain networks he liked better than others, but those numbers him if he actually did sing, if are just stunning. he actually did talk because of >> it is unbelievable. his connections to the russians, and what's going to happen would be worse than what is going to happen to him in terms eventually is we're going to get into a re-election campaign and of his sentencing. if you add up the viewership of so the pardons and prospect of all of those other networks, pardons has been part of the he's now not communicating to a whole bunch of voters sitting fabric from the very beginning, and not just because of paul out there trying to make up their mind. it's not like these networks are manafort, but because of the message that it might send to going to forget it. it's not like they're going to say great, now we want to be many other potential cooperating your spokesperson. witnesses in terms of michael i think there's one other point, flynn. the white house has had one press conference in 2019 and so the investigations now are going into a phase though, john, where their press operation is fox they're going to be getting news. the way they communication is through fox news. and it's now an extension of the information off of the hill from white house. >> and part of the reason why donald trump has 38% irreducible many other people who are cooperating. i just met this morning with some aides from one of those core, incredibly, incredibly high core but incredibly low ceiling at the same time. commuti >> all of these swing voters are committees and they say they're getting kooms fr not guessing messages from him getting cooperation from because he's only talking to his witnesses who already provided base.

that information to mueller. even if we don't see that >> an interesting conversation. information in terms of a final i want to have more later but after this break, we have to do report from mueller, it is being a commercial here, the leaks are extracted now by these coming from inside the white democratic oversight committees house. not just inside the house, the white house. why the administration's on the hill. >> fiphil, i want to focus on o objection to congressional particular thing about this cohen tweet, which is the kind scrutiny may have been in vain. that's next. of out of the blueness of it. ret weapon... it was nine days ago when michael cohen testified on capitol hill. ret weapon... the scotts turf builder program. obviously he's been back and there's cohen's never really out it's the best way to get the yard you want of the news, but what is it you all year long, guaranteed. think on the basis of your reporting and intuition that all it takes is 4 feedings, would cause trump on this with a scotts solution for every season. particular morning to decide to go after -- to raise the michael and with a customized plan from the scotts my lawn app, cohen specter again? >> yeah, john, well, the reason your yard can look like pete's. i think is because all week it's that easy. this is a scotts yard. we've seen various allegations being presented by cohen's download the scotts my lawn app for your personalized plan. lawyers and explanations about trump's lawyers, including rudy giuliani in the media about the extent of these pardon conversations, what exactly they were. earlier this week michael cohen was up on capitol hill in closed-door testimony talking about these conversations, according to our reporting, he was telling congressional

investigators he had, had numerous conversations about a pardon that had been dangled before him by trump's legal representatives, including rudy giuliani. and so it's been in the ether, even though we're so removed now from cohen's testimony and i think that's why the president finally felt like he wanted to weigh in. as the panel has underscored, what trump tweeted is very different than what cohen has been alleging on capitol hill. >> translator: is actually tweeting that he himself had a conversation with cohen about a pardon, and cohen asked him for a pardon and he said no. this is a president who's never especially precise in his recollection or narration of events so i don't know if that was the truth but it was an extraordinary tweet >> harry, it does raise this issue, right, the personal nature said trump himself was involved in these discussions, it seems to me one of the things you would do, as you said, he's the worst client in the world but if you want to maintain a certain amount of plausible

deniability, can you say i don't know what my lawyers were doing, they might have talked about pardons with these folks. my lawyers are my lawyers. personally the president of the united states would never get involved in this. but instead today trump seemed to have strip add way any plausible deniability on his itreat them all as if, they are hot and energized. part. it makes absolutely no sense why stay away from any downed wire, the president would want to assert himself personally in call 911 and call pg&e right after so we can both respond out this discussion. >> yeah, 100%. why today? and keep the public safe. that path lies madness. he gets an itch, he has to scratch it. it's 3:00 a.m., and he just does. it's not in his self-interest, except, of course, we've been pillaring him as a client, deservedly, but, you know, we're in the political realm. did putting it out there now for some reason give a little jolt to the base that he felt he needed, and is that the methed in his madness? possibly. >> i want to focus a little on manafort because there's been a ton of discussion since the sentence was handed down last night about how flagrant that was and the two tiers of pg&e wants you to plan ahead by mapping out escape routes

justice. i want to focus for a second on what the president's team has and preparing a go kit, in case you need to get out quickly. directly said about this today. rudy giuliani today had a quote for more information on how to be prepared and keep your family safe, visit pge.com/safety. to the associated press where he said about manafort, quote, i feel terrible about the way manafort has been treated. i think it's not american to keep a man in solitary confinement, try to crack him. he's not a terrorist. he's not an organized criminal. he's a white collar criminal. we had a little bit of a nothing to me screams matt, matt gut-punch for the white house today. two days ago the administration had drawn a line in the sand, miller, more the two americas here or two-tier nature of refusing to accommodate the house oversight committee's request for documents related to american justice we could have a the highly dubious saga of jared conversation with someone guilty of the kind of crimes paul kushner's security clearance. turns out, the committee may manafort is convicted of is not have had those documents all a serious crime. so rudy giuliani is suggesting along. axios is reporting someone he's not a terrorist so, signed the white house had already leaked them to congress. therefore, he's a jay walker. what do you make of the sentence not only is the leak itself itself? and cast your mind forward to next week when a new judge will be looking at paul manafort's going to be problematic to team trump but the leaker as wall, other crimes and has the supplying scoops to journalists possibility of adding ten more and congress now as axios years on to his cumulative reporting about why it matters, sentence. the trump administration's somewhere first, let me say problems with leaks will now

benefit congress, making it something about rudy giuliani, harder for the white house to it's kind of become trite to point out what a hypocrite he's withhold information from democratic investigators. become as a prosecutor at sdny. joining us now at the time with my other two friends, the great but one of the way he made his reverend al sharpton, the host name in sdny was prosecuting of "politicsnation" here on people for white collar crime. msnbc. good to see you, rev. that's what made him famous, >> good to see you. >> phil, i want to start by walking into trading floors with asking you this question, if the handcuffs. they are serious crimes. house committee already had these documents, why are they they should be prosecuted. the only people in the country asking for them? who think paul manafort was treated too hash,ly, not too >> well, i don't know, it might leniently by the judge, but too be that they're trying to get harshly, is the president and more documents, additional his legal team. documentation on the same topic. the problem with the sentence is it might be they're trying to formalize the request because two-fold. they obtained the documents not one, if you look at the nature of his crime, set aside who he is, the nature of the crime, at the front door of the white house. i'm not sure. but one thing we should keep in ten-year crime spree he embarked on and serious guilty verdicts mind is this teams to be only the beginning of the house returned by that jury on eight democrats' investigations into counts, obviously, he was -- he ivanka trump and jared kushner. there are discussions under way about launching probes into a should have been given a much more serious -- not the full 19 number of different areas, abou to 24 but something along 10, 12

years would have been justified. but then when you compare it to everyone else, it drives home this problem. it isn't unique to paul manafort that wealthy, white, powerful white crime defendants are just not treated the same as poor defendants, black and brown defendants, guilty of not just nonviolent crimes but violent crimes like drug distribution. >> i want to ask matt this question about what happens next. manafort is open to potential of being prosecuted by new york state in addition to being prosecuted, the crimes he's already been prosecuted for. and you have amy berman jackson, the judge who will rule on his sentencing next week. if you're judge berman jackson, what are you thinking about what just happened? and does it play any role in what you think about the sentence you decide to hand down next week? >> that's an interesting and tricky question. mueller's sentencing memorandum drops a footnote that answers

that question and points to yes. the guidelines suggest she can go up to ten years based on his overall conduct, in other words, averting to the eastern district of virginia conduct. would i have thought though she would have tried to keep it independent and would be -- she's a tough sentencer but would be looking at something like seven or eight years. but i just do want to point out, it was an egregious departure but the system is not done with paul manafort and probably never will be. there is not just this coming up, also as you say the possibility of new york, three other states including rhode island and illinois, could potentially indict him and i think are beginning to look at that hard because of this sentence. is he by no means out of the woods. >> phil, one of the things that president trump seized on today as the most predictable thing in the world, besides like the sun rising in the east, was the notion trump would seize on the notion the judge said there was no collusion. it's not really what the judge

said. talk a little bit about that. i know collusion will be ringing in your ears probably until the day you die given how many times trump said it, but talk about that mischaracterization of the facts. >> it's been ringing in our ears for a couple years now but that was a gross mischaracterization of what judge ellis said yesterday. what he said was paul manafort was in that courtroom for crimes that do not have to do with the investigation of collusion between the trump campaign and russia. so the manafort crimes were separate from the trump collusion/russia investigation. but he did not at all arrive at a judgment about russian collusion and did not give the president a clean bill of health as the president claimed on the south lawn of the white house today. >> heidi, i want to read you a tweet from adam schiff, chairman of the house intelligence committee that agrees with phil rucker's analysis and goes a little further. here's the tweet -- the statement by paul manafort's lawyer after an already lenient sentence, repeating the president's mantra of no collusion, was no accident.

it was the deliberate appeal for a pardon, one injustice must not follow another. so schiff is basically saying first of all, what phil just said, the judge didn't say no collusion, the lawyer said no collusion. and that was intended for an appeal for a pardon. talk about adam schiff's game here and how this action can shift to capitol hill on the manafort front. >> right. based on our reporting the intelligence committee is actually getting a lot of information in coordination with other committees, like the financial services committee. if they eventually get trump's tax returns, they will get a lot more information from that but they're going hard at the issue of collusion. that is exactly what they're going to be examining. and unlike in the senate committee, where you did have some -- a little bit of partisan breakdown there, on the house side, there's going to be many more witnesses now coming in, including allen weisselberg that

they already have cooperating and based on my reporting with judiciary sources, they're bifurcating a lot of this and they're taking it very slow because they don't want it to be seen as overreach. they don't want it to be seen as just going after the president willy-nilly partisanly. but there is going to be an obstruction element of this through the judiciary committee. on intelligence, the collusion part of this still has many more characters to play out. again to repeat myself from the first part, even though -- even if the mueller investigation never becomes public, this will all ultimately become public through the intelligence committee. i thought it was notable, john, for instance one of the characters schiff wants to bring before his community is felix sater, who is very close to the trump family but also very close to the russian mafia. it is notable schiff wanted to bring him initially in public, which means they've already got their hands on a lot of information here that they want to bring now to the american

people. >> right. that felix sater hearing was scheduled next week and has now been delayed until later in march. heidi przybyla, thank you for spending time with us and your reporting. harry litman for your good looks and your genius. always great every time you're on the show. thank you both. when we come back, break out your west wing departure bingo cards, white house communications chief bill shine is out after less than a year. a new report rea the fox news alum managed to wind up on trump's bad side in the beat of a heart or beat of an eye or something. also mile inside the white house who leaked the dirt on jared and ivanka's security clearances to investigators in congress. and he's not even in the race yet but the hits against joe biden are already coming. i spoke to one prominent democrat who is saying, thanks but no thanks. we will see that video a little later. stay with us. we've got a lot coming. only fidelity offers

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the revolving door of white house communication director just keeps on spinning. trump's fifth communications director is out. two years, five. amazing. bill shine, he's resigning after serving in the position for just eight months, which by trump standards is not a just, it's approximately 22 scaramuccis, longest anyone held this position under donald trump. the hiring of shine, former fox news executive, solidified his ties to his favorite network, writing mr. shine's presence in the white house was seen at emblematic how closely trump aligned himself with fox using the network to talk with his most fervent supporters and

using it to advance on the policy and presidency. apparently bill shine's connections didn't help all that much as "the washington post" reports -- in recent months trump complained about his media coverage and blamed shine in part for not making it more positive according to current and former administration officials. joining me on this set is former obama campaign manager and deputy white house chief of staff jim mussina and matt miller and phil rucker are still with us. phil, i want to start with you because i believe the last thing i read there was from a piece that you wrote. >> that's right. >> tell us about why now the moment arrived for bill shine's exit. >> yeah, john, it was a pretty abrupt announcement today but not altogether surprising. we know just from our reporting the last several months that trump and shine have not been seeing eye to eye entirely. in part because the president expected by bringing in bill shine, the former fox news

president, he was going trump

employee. >> what's more important do you think, the fact these documents

were leaked and what's in them or the fact there's a mole willing to cough these up to democratic investigators? >> the second by far. if you look at past oversight investigations, the thing that rp always separates an investigation that produces damaging revelations, maybe some e-mails that show misconduct or inappropriate language, and the ones that are truly explosive, the ones that become front-page news and lead to resignations and departures, the difference between the two are whistle-blowers. it's always when you have a whistle-blower that can come forward and tell investigators, first of all, where to look, what questions they ought to be asking, and second of all to take away one of the white house's powerful weapons, the ability to delay turning over documents and fight it in court. if they can get those documents from a whistle-blower, it takes away the white house's ability to drag these things out for months or even years and it gets right to the heart of the matter. i'll tell you the final thing it gives you sometimes a face to put in a congressional hearing and it's extremely damaging for an administration. >> i got a lot of nodding heads

and ears around this table. everyone is about to jump out of their skins. jennifer, go. >> everything he said, yes. i would also say this, there are a lot of people who have had a pent-up desire to tell what they have to say. they have not had a democratic congress, and now they have one. they have someone to give the information to. so, again, the most important thing that has happened in this administration was the change in congress. i think one of the other issues that we're going to see here is, you know, these two were not such popular children in the white house. they were given huge, vast areas of expertise to which they had no experience. they absolutely from what we have seen used these opportunities to further themselves. there are a lot of people who i am sure resent this and they are more than happy to chitchat. the notion the democrat should be afraid going after the children, the children are there because of nepotism and conflict of interest, of course you have to go after them.

guys, grow a spine. >> they'll give you two good reasons, let me give you a third. the former guy who tried to plug these leaks up in a way -- >> i remember, you used to do that! yes. >> a whole show about that. >> great. >> but here's probably they don't want to say who gave it to them, right, because especially this document to matt's point, this document only five or six people would have been able to see. this is a very exclusive document and it's pretty obvious who gave it to congress. congress is like he let's get it in the official channel so it's not obvious joe gave us this thing and that's the bigger problem. when these things are leaking, houston, you've got a problem. >> i want to come back to the point jennifer raised and go specifically to the question of can you go too far? and the question of the kids. i want to read from "the washington post" piece of which rucker is one of the co-author as long with his colleagues. house democrats are torn over how aggressively to investigate the intersection of ivanka trump's private financial interest and service in the white house in an area that would probably inflamed the

tensions of president trump who has warned democrats about scrutinizing his family. and in some quarters reluctance, highlight concern amongst some democrats about the political optics of questioning trump's adult children, even as they insist the president's family members, especially those serving in government, should not be immune from accountability. phil, i ask you, like jend, nobody should have he's tans about this but your sense is among a lot of democrats there's division and dissension about how far to push. talk about that. >> i think it's about how hard to investigate aslankia and jared kushner but how hard and how to do it? what is the time line like? do you subpoena them? do you call them forward to testify? do you start slowly? they're aware of the optics of this but these are not children, they are not teenagers and not naive and not involved in politics. they are working in government at the highest levels and overseeing in the case of jared kushner our country's national security and foreign affairs so they're very much subject to

congressional oversight. >> reverend al, i want to ask you this question but first i want to read a quote from nancy pelosi that really agrees with jennifer rubin. nancy pelosi and jennifer rubin are on to something that must be right. here's nancy pelosi -- whomever falls into that net falls into that net. they're advisers to the president. they have security clearances. this is not their children at home. >> i think that's what critical here. you're talking about people given a security clearance. you can't have it both ways. you can't play that i'm daddy's little daughter and my husband but i've got all of this kind of security clearance, all of this kind of influence. you either are one or the other. but i think what causes a lot of nervousness around the white house when you hear about somebody leaking is they don't know what else they leaked and what may be the questioning, if they're called before congress, and if you have people at the highest level as was said only four, five would know it, you don't know what else they have.

and you know what kind of deals these people have the capacity to cut. so i would be very concerned if i was them to know people at a higher level and and getting them things. we know who they think they may have on security. but you don't know what else has been leaked about jared kushner and ivanka's possible dealings. >> i will say democrats, this will be a recurring theme going on forward, democrats are arguing and worried about every question whether they will overreach on specific things. this is one area they probably shouldn't but other areas they should. phil rucker, thufrpz for being on the show. as always, you were awesome. after the break we will have a discussion, waiting for godot or waiting for joe biden. donald trump out the door and around the corner, but the former vice president could change everything with the snap of his fingers. how likely is that man to run, according to him, next.

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the field of democratic contenders for 20 20 is among te largest and diverse we have ever seen. but this week more people have come out saying they won't run than will. one democrat that weighed in on the crowded field emerging was new york city bill de blasio. he weighed in with me for my showtime show "the surface." take a listen. >> if your pred sayser decides not to run, you can argue there's not a single human being in the party who has not done more on climate and guns. but despite all of that, he with all of his money and all of his political brains around him, all of those people, they all looked at the state of the democratic party right now and said he has no chance to be the nominee. first of all, do you think that's right? >> 110%. >> no chance? >> no chance. >> and because? >> we're a progressive party more and more. that is desperately troubled by the wealth and power

concentrated on the hands of 1%, and we know that has to change and has to change quickly. how on earth are you going to nominate one of the eight richest menn ha reality. >> could not win? >> people are too serious about the need for change. >> he made the right decision. >> absolutely. >> is joe biden a progressive or is joe biden a moderate? >> joe biden, first of all, very impressive public servant, but i certainly consider him a moderate. >> so can't be the nominee? >> i don't think this party is going to choose a moderate. i don't think this party should choose a moderate. if a moderate runs and wins, this very dangerous status quo will continue. we have an incoming economic crisis that's dangerous and destabilizing. >> you have a lot of respect for joe biden. >> 100%. >> but we can say joe biden would not win the de blasio endorsement? he's a moderate.

>> look, i have a lot of respect for him but you say what does this party need right now, it doesn't need a moderate. what this country needs right now, it does not need a moderate. >> and he's a moderate. >> he's a moderate. >> okay. >> so bill de blasio, who himself is thinking about running for president, heads to south carolina this weekend. he's been to iowa. who knows how real that is, but he's the very liberal mayor of the biggest city in america and has had a pretty successful run here. will he have a role. his endorsement will matter. he said joe biden, like mike bloomberg, could never get nominated and should never have run, he was right not to. joe biden probably shouldn't run either because this party is so part of the left now there's no way joe biden can get nominated, is that right? >> no, it's not. i understand the argument but it's just not true. 61% of democrats say the most important issue in the democratic primary is who can beat donald trump. donald trump is a unifying factor. we've seen this before remember in 2004 when we danced with howard dean and john edwards and everybody thought kerry could beat bush so we're going to

kerry. the second thing is there's no major front-runner in this race included but the thought we're going to go to the more progressive candidate is probably not true. the other thing as you covered is seven states have gone from caucuses to open primaries in the 2020 election, which is going to open it up to a much bigger group of people, including independents and republicans in the democratic primary. and likely go to electing or nominating a more electable candidate in the general election. >> you ran in 2004. you were a pretty pro grisive candidate if i remember correctly, more in line with the mainstream of where the party is now than 2004. do you think a joe biden running primarily in the way jim suggests, which he's not going to be on the far left of the party, he's not going to be even in the progressive mainstream, but is going to run more like i will take out donald trump, is he going to make a big difference? >> i think i agree the party has moved toward the left but i think the overwhelming majority of people that are going to vote in these primaries are going to

want someone that can beat donald trump. and i think that they're -- i talk to a lot of my progressive friends and i'm considered progressive, that you can eliminate a lot of people in this. many of the progressive candidates do not energize black voters and do not energize brown voters. if you look at some of the results, they lose the black vote. according to the map, and the calendar, you go from iowa to new hampshire to south carolina. south carolina is not a state that's going to be looking for the most progressive. it's a state with a lot of black voters and your super left guy can die there if they don't know how to deal with issues like that that joe biden knows how to deal with. i'm not saying he wins south carolina but i'm saying you better look at the map if you're on your way to winning the nomination. >> this morning on this air, on the morning show, john hickenlooper, self-avowed

moderate, multi millionaire, entrepreneurial story, very much taking out the chirp, which is not the progressive lane but asked on the air this morning if he was a capitalist could not come out in a full-throweded way and a i'm a proud capitalist. apparently the phrase saying you're a capitalist in the democratic party is a kiss of death. what does that say about where things are? >> it says he's a very bad candidate. there are good moderate candidates, good progressive candidates and bad progressive candidates. elizabeth warren said i'm a capitaliste society. so i don't think hickenlooper is the guy probably to carry that message if he can't get through an interview on his what, second day out of the box. would i echo something the reverend said, the democratic party, although we hear so much about the move to the left, so much about the progressives, when you look at the clear data, almost half consider themselves to be conservatives

or moderates, it's not like the party became bernie sanders overnight. you also have to include the people that desperately want to win and are telling people i don't have to have my top favorite, except someone that is good enough to win. i also add that. say that joe biden is a moderate, it really strikes me has peculiar. he did get climate change done. they act like the obama administration was some republican light operation. >> i'll tell you that bill deblasio and more say that the obama administration was not conservative enough. we'll come back after this quick break. we'll come back after this quick break. switched to chevy. we switched to chevy.

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it is not ideology, but it is identity. a lot of strong women are running. elizabe elizabeth warren is here talking about many tech giants, how much do you think being a woman in the 2020 race in 2020 is a huge advantage? >> it is a huge deal, right? the democratic party would like to nominate a woman. so i think it is a big advantage. >> i agree, i think that you

should probably have a woman on the ticket, it not the nominee. i think we have come to the time in history where people seriously want to see a woman at that level of president at at least vice president. >> one positive, one negative, the negative is there is a lot of democrats sbookpooked by the hillary loss. we have to get a white male. which is wrong, i think women in the general public are looked upon as safer bets. they don't do some of the stuff these guys have been caught doing, and it gives a little more graf as it, at least we don't have to worry about that. >> matt miller, one of the pieces of news this week we heard is that your old boss, eric holder, decided not to run. >> i think he would have been a

great president, but there is a lot of people looking at it, a lot of -- you know a big burden to ask of your family, and he decided it wasn't the right time for him to do it, but i think he will stay pretty active in politics. i think he is running this redistricting coalition and i think we will see him pop up at some point. >> real quick, a little bird told me that beto o'rourke will announce next week. will he be a good candidate? >> he needs some substance. >> you're fantastic. you have -- when you say people round at this table, people know what it means. we have one more break, we'll take that break right now and be right back. k right now and be right back ♪ i'm in the groove ♪ now do you love me? ♪ do you love me ♪ now that i can dance?

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my thanks to reverend al

sharpton, nicolle, i know you will be thrilled to know will be back on monday, you won't have to look at me, chuck, it's only three seconds over. >> you're right it is bad for you and i when nicolle is not here to do the hand off. >> what are you doing this weekend, buddy? >> what am i doing this weekend? i work for the weekend? >> not me, i'm drinking. >> are you drinking all weekend long? >> starting in about five minutes. enjoy your happy brother. if it's friday, hielman is drinking, but today it's mueller's time.