my thanks to reverend al sharpton, nicolle, i know you will be thrilled to know will be back on monday, you won't have to look at me, chuck, it's only three seconds over. >> you're right it is bad for you and i when nicolle is not here to do the hand off. >> what are you doing this weekend, buddy? >> what am i doing this weekend? i work for the weekend? >> not me, i'm drinking. >> are you drinking all weekend long? >> starting in about five minutes. enjoy your happy brother. if it's friday, hielman is drinking, but today it's

mueller's time. good evening, i'm chuck todd here in washington. welcome to "mtp dalily." it is 5:00 on a friday in washington and that is when news usually breaks. there is no clear indication that it will happen this hour, if it does, obviously we'll be ready but it does seem like another friday will go by with no mueller report, no new indictments. the president said he discussed a pardon directly with michael cohen. that is an enormous emission even if the president didn't grant one. something bigger. the president's campaign chief is going to prison. the president's campaign chief from the 2016 successful election is going to friday. some folks out there claim that his 47 month sentence doesn't mean anything.

that's not true. it doesn't mean that the president has been cleared of collusion which president trump is trying to falsely claim. this was not a case about russian contacts with the trump campaign. if you that want case, paul manafort will be sentenced next week for lying about russian contacts with the rush shan campaign, but the judge yesterday did not say there was no collusion with russia. >> the judge said no collusion with russia. it has nothing to do with collusion, there is no collusion. it's a collusion witch hunt. i don't collude with russia. the judge for whatever reason, i was very honored by it, also made the statement that this had nothing to do with collusion with russia. so keep it going, keep the hoax

going. >> katie turr covered the trump campaign, she the host of this show occasionally. and mimi rrr roeka is our legal guru, i feel like we need to give a history lesson about the paul manafort window. his time at the trump campaign is at the heart of so many questions. the first full screen, when manafort was campaign chief. the dnc says the rub shassians hacking themselves. the dnc platform is made more pro russia. trump tries to justify russia's

a an anexation of crimea. the senior campaign official that supposedly directed stone about wiki leaks. that is what is alleged. casy, explain how important paul manafort informs that period of time. >> paul manafort was really important, what i did was go back and look at an interview i did with don junior when lewindowsky was ousted. and paul manafort was put in charge because they need ad grown up. they needed a grown up, someone that could ensure that donald trump was going to maintain his hold on the nomination.

that at the convention he would be able to rs g on to all of the delegates. convention. something happening, and paul manafort was brought in to make sure that everyone stayed in line. who was paul manafort, he had to be in american politics for a little time how did he know paul manafort, and what was paul manafort getting out of this deal. he wasn't taken a salary, why did he want to work for donald trump's campaign. it seemed like it would be a uphill battle for anybody. what was in it for paul manafort, all of these really important events when it comes to the questions we have, the major questions about whether or not collusion happened, what is going on with the special council's investigation, all happened in that summer of 2016

while paul manafort informs charge. he informs that meeting where they were offering dirt on hillary clinton. he handed over poll numbers paul administrate should have known these would be problematic. >> you did a -- and you went back through an interesting profile on manafort in march of last year. i really need to get to trump manafort told an old friend in the early months of 2016. when manafort asked for ba barrick's help grabbing trump his services. he would provide his counsel, he said, free of charge, what was paul manafort expecting if he was getting nothing from trump,

do we think he was working for free? >> the documents you're reading, that mueller's officer put out, can they were trying to leverage their position to value advantage his personal vie fanss that were a complete disaster. as soon as he got to the campaign he owed money to a russian oligarch, and he immediately sends his old aide a note saying pass clips to me on to see if there is a way we can get whole with him. we three is a super pack that he was involved with that went to another company that he owed money to. so he was trying to get a loan

from this bank in chicago, and he offers the guy that runs the bank a spot on trump's council of economic advisors. and he helps get a cab nice position in the trump administration. so everything was for sale. >> mimi, we painted a picture that paul manafort was essentially trying to use the trump campaign to make money, pay off debts, maybe sell out to whoever, but what does that mean for donald trump? >> well, it depends which i know is a frustrating answer. it depends on what trump knew about what manafort was doing. we have not yet seen direct evidence yet about what donald trump knew, but i think we knew based on how trump operates now,

operated in the past, how the campaign was run, how small it was, and trump's personality. i think it would be really surprising for him to have gone off and done these type of things and try to use the trump name if you will for his own benefit, and trump's reaction would be different now than the praising it has been since the day that manafort got into trouble. it was hard for him to get rid of manafort from the campaign. and his praising of manafort constantly lased one to believe that he knew exactly what was going on. >> this is something guy back and forth on. how close were they? roger stone has been basically at the creation of donald trump

the politician, but it wasn't roger stone that brought him into the campaign, it was barrick. it has been a head scratcher to me. i feel like we're missing piece of the puzzle. >> and he owns an apartment in trump tower. even though he was someone in trump tower, owned an apartment there, they didn't seem to have a good relationship in the campaign. he didn't like to listen to him, he would throw him under the bus. dru donald trump would say that manafort was going to be the grown up, and he chafed at that,

and he chafed at manafort not being at his beck and call. manafort would go to his house in the hamp ttons when donald trump expected everyone to be at the office because he was still working, or he still wanted to talk to people. >> to this day i can't believe i had an interview with manufacture and on the split screen we had the hamptons, they didn't care that he was not reaching out to americans, he was at the hamptons. >> yeah, his campaign manager at the hamp totons was the last th he was worried about, but he was basically just dealing with the convention and he wasn't there for the day in and the day out. so the question of how much he was telling manafort about what was going on, and what paul

manafort offered donald trump, that is still unanswered. the reality is that the two men did not get along. frankly part of me has said that manafort and his ties to eastern europe in particular, he had a reputation, i first started covering politics in 1992 and his reputation was a little shady then. here we are later, is it possible this is still a confluence of events that the president, while he may have had empathies and sympathies, and maybe he want today do a deal for moscow trump tower, he didn't know what manafort was doing on the oligarch front when it came to the ukraine. >> yeah, the incompetent part of the campaign can't be urn dated. it was just a funny note on this, trump actually liked

having manafort in the hamptons because he thought it was classy and he liked -- and manafort would brag about that. but the question that you're asking is how do the pieces fit together and they may not fit. you look at administrate's greed and a lot of manafort's secrecy. so while it seems possible and maybe likely that he could go boasting to donald trump about the stuff he was doing, but he was tending to his own personal financial situation. he would not want trump to know about that. >> there has always been too many people that want to assume that manafort ties everything together, these may be separate ven diagrams that just happened to overlap. >> yes, absolutely. we certainly cannot sit here right now and say that whatever manafort was doing trump knew

and was involvemented wid with, depends on what we're talking about. if we're talking about manafort trying to profit himself, okay, but if woe're talking about meeting and getting poll data, that is in direct e contradiction to trump. and look, we may never see it and you're right, it may be that what is revealed will not give us the missing pieces, but it seems like there is a lot of coincidences that can't be explained any other way, really, without the reality that trump at least knew that manafort was trying to rep the ruhelp the ru what they were doing, which was help trump. >> the convention thing, whatever it is, trump did know it was being watered down on that front, and p on behalf of

somebody that was not in the united states. katie tur, you have to stick around. pardon mee? the president makes a big admission that he discussed a pardon with michael cohen. does that matter? l cohen. does that matter the right gear... matters. introducing the all-new 2019 ford ranger, it's the right gear. with a terrain management system for... this. a bash plate for... that. an electronic locking rear differential for... yeah... this. heading to the supermarket? get any truck. heading out here? get the ford ranger. the only adventure gear built ford tough. they're america's biopharmaceutical researchers. pursuing life-changing cures

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internet that puts you in charge. that protects what's important. it handles everything, and reaches everywhere. this is beyond wifi, this is xfi. simple. easy. awesome. xfinity, the future of awesome. welcome back, the president today painted michael cohen has a liar. he said he didn't lie to congress, and the president said he directly asked me for a pardon. i said no. the president is acknowledges he discussed a pardon with michael cohen. one thing seems certain, there is more to this story than

either one of us would be asked to believe. and the president of the center for american progress, and former senior add vie store president obama, and alfonso agular. mimi, walk us through the law when it comes to the president's part. what league jeopardy could he be in when it comes to dangling pardons or is there jeopardy? >> if trump is using pardons to get o or trying to use his pardon power to get people to not kroop rate in the investigation, any investigation, mueller, congress, or the southern district, that is potential witness tamperring and or

obstruction. there are legal experts out there that take a different view and say because of the pardon power, he can pardon anyone he wants, that can't be viewed in this way. this isn't about him grants pardons, but it is about him dakdak -- dangling them. i am not privy to the conversations -- he admitted it in an interview with the "new york post." he said i could do it. he did it in plain sight in that sense. and the point i was going to make is that we see him doing it on television and twitter. he is making clear that those

that don't cooperate are good, and this is sort of out there. i don't know what facts are. i don't think any of us really do. that is part of the problem here. you know what we, the american public, should not have to figure it out. this should be something that happens under oath and you know who is gone under oath? michael cohen, and you know who hasn't? michael cohen, and he made himself a witness. if he were not president of the united states he would have to testify about this. >> i want to run through this. cohen says he never asked for a pardon. lanny da nny davis says he dires attorney to ask. and rudy giuliani says that multiple people were asking for pardons all of the time. what should we believe? >> i don't think the american

people know what they should believe at this point. you have them each making accusations against one another, i don't know how you sort this out. the american public needs a way to get to the truth and i think because of the structure of this operation and because we're dealing with the president of the united states, it is almost impossible to get to that. maybe i'm wrong. >> you can't say for sure there is inaccuracy in cohen's testimony. he said he would not ask for a pardon, lanny davis said his previous legal representation had tried to negotiate a pardon. so in terms of the press in talking about this we said it many many times. when you're under investigation you should not be talking about this, right? but it also depends on whether or not it was a pardon request or did he end up talking to

cohen about it, but it is troubling that he is talking act it, yes. >> i think what you said is an indication of why this is so crazy and an indication of guilt. any other president, i worked for a president that was under investigation, your lawyer says don't discuss the legal details, don't get into things like this, you cannot imagine any other president even using the wor pardon for fear of retribution, and i think this is a way that donald trump lowered the bar. it looks like he is dapgling a pardon. he also copped to essentially firing comey because of the russian investigation. there is a pattern here and i find it amusing that the argument is michael cohen might not be telling the truth when donald trump has a historic land mark problem with the truth. >> i understand, but aren't you

bothered by, michael cohen was a star witness last week. >> he did lie to congress. >> but he lied twice last week. >> so mimi, you have been through, take your average rico case, the average rrk ico case, you're dealing with people that lie for a living, and some have to be believed by grand juries, and the president is bucking surrounded by people. he can pick and choose their lies, when cohen said he doesn't have any "direct evidence of collusion." trump said he is telling the truth. he is trying to pick and childhood, it is really hard to

determine, the hardest thing that prosecutors and what they do. first of all you do, someone under oath is more likely to tell the truth. we know that he lies, you look at the history of the person, and both of those fact vors here, it is both problematic. will we have other evidence here other than trump says and cohen says, doipt know, if we don't it would be almost an impossible case to charge criminally. it may not be an impossible thing for congress to come to some determination on in terms of impeachment, but as a prosecutor you would not charge this just based on cohen. >> this question has cropped up today, it is interesting and potentially damaging, but michael cohen was there to

testify about a lot of other things, for which presumably he provided corroborating evidence. or has provided corroborating evidence. we opened up another vein that raises the question to the degree that the president has in one way or the other trying to tamper with witnesses. >> the interview that mooul der conduct with the president in writing, we're finding out about some of these conversations now, alfon alfonso, but when was the president questioned about this stuff? and maybe he was already questioned about this stuff, and suddenly what do those written answers mean? >>. >> right, but the focus was on collusion. what cohen did last week was bring up a number of issues, very serious allegations, that i agree that based on michael

cohen's allegation, a prosecutor would not move forward with charging the president, but he mentioned certain things that -- the southern district of new york could actually find evidence, for example, when he says he inflated his assets to get a loan from a bank, i think that would be pretty easy to corroborate. >> he did bring a check written out while he was president of the united states that was essentially a hush money payment. >> you don't know. >> he is paying michael cohen money. there is going to be -- he is on retainer. >> i think this is an important issue here. how many other facts are around this. the fact that there is multiple crimes, not just conspiracy or collusion, is not something that makes the president look better, he looks work. >> mimi, all of the questions we

have for the president, how is it that mueller didn't try to subpoena him. i have to say, until recently i did get it, and i thought why would mueller waste his time with that. he is just going to lie, and not they think it is a perjury trap, but he will not get new information, it was a way to get him stuck with a set of facts. think now where you have something that may come down to the credibility of the president or someone else. there could be other witnesses to this there could be other things to corroborate it, it's not hard to believe this is what trump was doing, we kind of see

him doing it publicly, and he is incrementally admitting it. i didn't know about rush money. i think that now to me i'm asking that question. maybe the southern district could as well. >> i they is the question that a lot of people will have. he still might, he still good. mimi rocah thank you for being here. coming up i will talk to a democrat that questions cohen at that hearing where the president says cohen lied about asking for a pardon. join us this sunday for a special on the relationship between donald trump and vladimir putin. that is sunday at 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. we'll be right back. msnbc we'll be right back. ensure max protein... to give you the protein you need with less of the sugar you don't. (straining) i'll take that.

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welcome back, tonight in 2020 vision, if he runs, joe biden would be the most experienced in the field. that could be his biggest asset and his biggest liability. >> i think america is in a better position to lead the 21st century than any time in american history. >> some of his positions from

the last century may be problematic. >> madame president, we have predators on our streets that society has in fact in part because of neglect, created. >> biden's exampling of what is now considered a controversial crime bill is just a ghost of his past that could come back to haunt his 2020 candidacy. his handling of aany ta hill's testimony, and there are more. biden's experience in the senate and as vice president gives him the gravitas and name id that would serve him well. could he get through the new democratic party in a primary first? it's not just the baggage or past issues that could be a problem, his long time identification is as a so-called centrist or center-left guy is an issue for the democrats progressive wing hoping to push the party to the left. speaking of the progressive

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welcome back as we said the president is claiming that cohen lied to congress about never asking for a pardon. if that is true, that happened in a hearing that was among the guests that were doing the questioning. we have to start with a different mess on the hill. the democrats deep divisions on full display this week as they failed to respond to congresswoman omar's comments that were viewed as anti-semitism. but the difficulty in crafting that bill may be a sign of more trouble ahead.

joining me is one of the new democrats that won in orange county and turned it from red to blue, good to see you, sir. >> thank you, chuck. >> do you find this to be a lost week since the party and majority, you had to spend a lot of time fighting with each other. >> thankfully we got some other things established but yes it was a distraction that none of us need. >> how do you articulate what happened here. do you take congresswoman omar at her word that she wasn't trying to be anti-semitic, and she has never apologized. >> i think it would behoove all of us in elected positions to do a better job of choosing our words correctly, acting like the diplomats that we're elected to

be and make sure that we're not denigrating anybody. we want to see a nat is a leader in how we should behave, and hopefully the rest of us can follow suit. >> i know that the democrats want to say this is great. you're going to have people from all walks of life, at what point can you not unify? is there a point where your tent is too big? >> both tents are big. republican or democratic you have steve king saying outlandish remarks, and i don't think he represents the majority of republicans. i don't think that is the case and i would not suggest it. all of us on the far right or the far left that sometimes we make antagonistic remarks, it doesn't serve us as lawmakers in

congress. >> should that resolution have been as watered down as it was. the only thing missing was people who hate puppies. >> no, i don't think it was watered down. we had a whole list in there, that is what we should be fighting back. hate is hate, anti-semitism or otherwise. >> so you're not disappointed it didn't address the issue? >> i think it did. even this week in newport beach in my district, we had a situation with kids that were celebrating naziism and doing the hitler sign. it's not funny or appropriate at any time. >> michael cohen said his testimony is being called into correction, his lawyers having

to protecorrect part of it. do you believe it? >> you don't take him on his word at anything? he has to bring receipts. >> yes, with a shaker of salt, we need to corroborate what he says to be true, when he brings in cashed checks by the president of the united states while he is sitting in office, that is pretty good evidence. >> do you think what is being alleged is enough to pursue? i don't think we have enough evidence there, let's continue to dig. to me the bigger issue that came up today was a discussion that president trump had a

conversation with him about pardoning him. i'm very concerned about that. there was a quid pro quo that was discussed, and if so that is clearly obstruction of justice and tampering with a witness. >> but how do you know unless you get testimony from the witness. >> exactly. let's see if we can keep pushing and get mueller's report public. >> your committee got some leaked information, these are papers you asked from the white house. that is somebody leaking it from the white house. >> i will certainly defer to elisha cummings about the timing on that, but we should all be

concerned about people getting national security clearances that were determine to be people that should not be getting clearances. >> should we know why the cia did not want to give them the highest access available? >> i do, and if the president will disregard their device and demand the security clearance be given to them. i look at what is right and what is wrong, and the clintons tried to give chelsea a security clearance, and they said no, i would be up in arms about that as well, it is just plain wrong. >> you have not endorsed kamala harris, a lot of your colleagues have. are you still shopping? >> i sam taking a position to wait until august to do endorse mentes for congressional and local races.

she is a dynamite candidate and there are some others as well. lest see how dhthey do in the nt few months and thenly up head, president trump the projector in chief. plus, honestly, what is joe biden waiting for? honestly, wha biden waiting for? "slow turkey." along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. with chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting. chantix reduces the urge so when the day arrives, you'll be more ready to kiss cigarettes goodbye. when you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix. you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. stop chantix and get help right away if you have changes in... behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions, seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking,

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welcome back, tonight, i am not obsessed, but you know who is obsessed? you, you're obsessed. specifically with president trump's constant efforts to project on to others. it is one of his all-time favorite defense mechanisms. deployed more often than not on twitter. who exited real crime? the democrats committed them? who is spitting lies, misrepresentations and contradictio contradictions? michael cohen, and for projections you don't have to even project on to specific people, it be can be generic and nameless people. denuclearization. it is an important world. a lot of people don't know what it means. >> a lot of people don't know what it is, they don't know how to define tariff. >> a lot of things are happening that people don't know about. >> people don't realize -- >> people don't realize how

important governorships are. they can destroy your state or make it really great again. >> in reality, a lot of people do know things, even if the president doesn't always know them, so the next time you hear president trump call someone out, try this, replace the he, she, or they with i, me, or we. things might start to make more sense. then maybe, just maybe, a lot of people will know. people will know little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable, with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting.

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there. michael bloomberg, sherrod brown, those don't look like decisions made in a vacuum. we know that staff's being not just hired but there's also events being planned. it's all -- but there's something holding him back. you know him as well as anybody. what could it be? >> well, i would say two possible things. one is still that tick of indecision in him about whether this is really the right thing to do and what's the downside of doing it if he doesn't make it. and family considerations even though he says the family is fully behind it including his wife. so that's one thing. i think the second is waiting has not cost him anything. >> not yet. that's right. >> and the longer he is not in the line of fire, although it's beginning to happen even if he's not in, but the longer he's not the line of fire, i think he feels good for him. >> speaking of the line of fire,

your newspaper resurfaced biden's interview with a delaware newspaper back from 1975 talking about the desegregation plans. biden took a lead role in the fight speaking out repeatedly and forcefully against sending white children to majority black schools and black children to majority white schools. suggested that the government should have a more limited role in integration. it is a reminder to me in this. joe biden has been in the mainstream of -- which what makes him a lethal candidate. that is also what may make him a problematic primary candidate. how can he handle the primary if it's death by a thousand cuts like this? >> i think this is one of the tests for joe biden which is he does have a very long record. there are issues like this. there's anita hill. there's the crime bill. you know, he's talked about some of that.

he's talked about the challenges with the crime bill. he's talked about his long civil rights record. he does have a lot of support in the african-american community. and that is long standing and it's not just the last few years. >> that's right. >> it is over decades. so this is the issue which is i think the question for democratic voters is going to be the electability and how important they think these issues are. do they think it's 40 years ago, do we know this guy and he's been with us in the battles and we have a good sense that he's battle tested. or is it, you know, this offends and weakens a coalition. he has to demonstrate to voters that he can put together a broad coalition to defeat donald trump and he can do that across the board. >> look, i've said it before. i think joe biden is a formidable candidate. i think conservatives see him as the one that can present the

biggest challenge to president trump. in fact, at cpac, there was a tussle and joe biden came up as the biggest challenge. conservatives think he's the biggest challenge to president trump. having said that, you know, he's attractive because he's more moderate. he can engage working class voters. that in the past election supported trump. my question is, when he's the only moderate, perhaps the other one is klobuchar, but will the primary process move him to the left so much that if he wins the primary, he would not have the appeal he has right now? >> the one thing i'd say about that quickly is in 2018, democrats made these decisions all over the country. >> and for the most part picked electability. >> yeah. they went with the candidate they caught could win. that was the issue. they made this decision.

moderate candidates who did not take -- >> the progressives wanted to win before. what do they want this time? >> they want to win still. >> i think they want a progressive candidate, but electability is still going to trump that. but joe biden has to prove, "a," that he can handle this. and "b," that he's a candidate for now and not before. >> it's the most electable progressive. can joe biden prove he's a progressive? thank you. up ahead, of moose and men 3 progressive? thank you. up ahead, of moose a nd men 3 we humans are strange creatures. other species avoid pain

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. well, in case you missed it, diplomacy, not dead. canada and norway have reached a deal to end a bitter long standing feud. you think it's a hockey thing, don't you? nope. it's over which moose statue is the biggest moose statue. 32 feet in moose jaw, canada. and the other corner the shimmering masterpiece in gleaming steel probably with a slash through the "o." for weeks now they have been at the center of a great conflict which could truly lay claim to the moose mantle. canada and norway have reached a moose truce. under the mutually agreed upon terms, canada's moose is officially the bigger moose but norway's is the shiniest and most attractive. win/win. two nations standing tall together like the mighty fake beasts they so adore.

diplomacy, it's not dead at least among the nordics and the canadians. finally the whole world can acknowledge you are both outstanding in your field. everybody gets a moose trophy. that's all for tonight. and if it's sunday it's "meet the press" on nbc. "the beat" with ari melber starts now. >> thank you, chuck. we're going to get right into it. we have a special show this friday night. senator elizabeth warren, she made big news today with this plan to take on major corporations. she's my guest in studio tonight talking about that plan. a lot of other news is also going down today from the fallout over a paul manafort's light sentence to where is this mueller probe headed. i'm going to get into all of it with her in this interview. right now let me tell you the

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