as we speak donald trump is in the oval office and moments ago signed a veto, the very first of his two-year-old presidency, rejecting a measure passed by congress, the stinging rebuke terminating his declaration of a national emergency on the southern border. for such a momentous occasion, it's appropriate the issue at hand is the wall, the cornerstone of president trump's political brand. we will bring you the signings and comments as soon as we get that turned around. in the meantime the latest chapter in what has been a months' long saga. remember, president trump shut down the government for 35 days to get money, billions of dollars for his wall, and when that didn't work, he decided to go it alone using a national emergency declaration as a means to get that money. but after both chambers of congress voted to rebuke him on that idea, including a dozen republicans, on your screen there, in the senate yesterday, here we are, donald trump using

executive power to officially ignore that rebuke. joining us here is axios's john than swan, "the wall street journal" national politics reporter shelby holiday and elli elliot williams, former deputy assistant of the attorney general is here, now working for an organization advocating for the protection of the special counsel. we have a great group. we will hear from the president a moment from now but i want to get your take on what this moment means. does this indicate, the fact we had 12 republicans, effectively rejecting the president here, does this demonstrate the president is losing his grip on the republican party in any way? was this a moment or all for shower because it's not going to be overpriden obviously? >> i'm on the side of it not being such a moment. yes, they took this vote but it is more remarkable this is his first veto. forget history. usually most presidents do more vetoes than trump has done so

far. i'll tell you from my own reporting, he's wanted to veto a bill for a long time. he badly wanted to veto a spending bill. we all know about that one. he wanted to veto the i reauthorization of surveillance. >> he loves these unilateral power, veto power to sign something and it happens. >> i'm told he was like positively excited to veto this bill. >> as you talk about this being the first -- >> and he tweeted. >> you can see the numbers relating to vetoes here. we will try to grab that for you. this is how other presidents have done this. over the cores of their presidency, obama 12 vetoes, bill clinton 37, george w. bush who served four yieears with 44 vetoes. what do you make of this moment for the president? is this effectively all about 2020? yesterday he made it clear this is a great election issue >> two things are happening. the first one is the president's presidency is a theater of

battle of overreach and brushback. it's normally by judges and in this case the senate. he does crave these moments. he love showing he's the warrior on the line. but i do think a little bit received a party on his side that is starting to think of a post-trump era. what are the battle lines after president trump, what principles have a stood for and arguments can i support? it's not every vote on that list but some of them, i think. >> shelby, what do you make of this? the fact of the matter is we will hear from the president and we have seen some of the k34e79s he makes in there, overwhelmingly republican voters support me on this. but overwhelmingly americans didn't support him on this. 67% of americans effectively disapproved of him declaring a national emergency to get money for his wall. that will come momentarily. i would like your thoughts on it. >> he seems to be saying this is the end of a long battle to get the money for the wall but in fact it's not. he keeps saying constitutional scholars agree he can do this and has these powers and meantime there's a lawsuit brewing and it's likely to go on for some time.

it's not the end of the road for this. i think you have to take a step back and look at all of the issues he's having with congress and the yemen vote and special counsel vote and north korea sort of rethinking their talks with him, chinese -- >> a series of -- >> series of rebukes of the president. i interrupt you only because we're going to hear from the president about ten seconds from now. he began his comments in the oval office today, where he vetoed the national emergency declaration by speaking about the massacre that took plis place in new zealand. >> thank you very much. earlier i spoke with the prime minister of new zealand to express the sorrow of our entire nation following the monster terrorist attacks in two mosques. she's sacred places of worship have been turned into evil killing. we have seen what went on. it's a horrible, horrible thing. i told him the prime minister is with him all the way, 100%. we will be there.

new zealand has been a great friend and partner for many years. our relationship has never been better. and what they're going through is absolutely terrible. so our hearts are with them and whatever we can do. we're grateful to be joined today by the vice president, thank you very much, mike, for being here. members of my cabinet, devoted public servants and angel parents. very important people to me and to a lot of other people. i want to thank you all for being here. thank you so much for being here. we appreciate it. thank you. been through a lot. as we take action to defend this nation from human cartels, human traffickers and drug smugglers, crime of all crimes coming to our southern border and other places but this is the place. this is the place we have the biggest problem by far and i want to also compliment the incredible people vat border patrol and i.c.e. and law

enforcement for the job they've done. they've apprehended so many thousands and thousands of people that if we had the proper protection, we wouldn't have to apprehend. they wouldn't be coming in. as president the protection of the nation is my highest duty. yesterday congress passed a dangerous resolution to if signed into law would put countless americans in danger, very grave danger. the democrats' sponsored resolution would terminate vital border security operations by revoking the national emergency issued last month. it is definitely a national emergency. rarely have we had such a national emergency. therefore, to defend the safety and security of all of americans i will be signing an issuing a formal veto of this reckless resolution and that's what it was. and i have to in particular

thank the republican strong wonderful people, are the republican senators that were on our side and on the side of border security, and on the side of doing what they have to, to keep our nation safe. they were very courageous yesterday and appreciate that very much. congress' vote to deny the crisis on the southern border is a vote against reality, it's against reality. it is a tremendous national emergency. it is a tremendous crisis. last month more than 76,000 illegal migrants arrived at our border. we're on track for a million illegal aliens to rush our borders. people hate the word invasion but that's what it is. it's an invasion of drugs and criminals and people, we have no idea of who they are but we capture them because border security is so good. but they're put in a very bad position. and we're bursting at the seams. what border patrol is able to do is incredible. i also by the way, want to thank

our military because our military has been very much involved as you know. they're putting up walls, in some cases temporary and in some cases they're supposed to be temporary. they're so good that they're better than the permanents so we're leaving them. we have nowhere left to hold all of the people that we captured. we're at a point with all of the horrible decisions we have been handed by people who aren't living in reality there's nothing we can do, there's nothing we can do. we're bursting at the seams. you can only do so much. the only option then is to release them but you can't do that either because when you release them, they come into our society and in many cases they're stone-coaled criminals. in many cases and some cases you have killers coming in and murders coming in and we're not going to allow that to happen. just not going to allow that to

happen. there's nearly a 2,000% increase of border and asylum claims over the last decade. part of the reason is because our country is doing so well economically that people are coming up in droves. the vast majority are rejected but smuggling organizations make a tremendous amount of money like they've never made before, are using these people to crash the system. our immigration system is stretched beyond the breaking point and that's i said, nothing much we can do. we can just do our job and do it well and if the democrats would get in, in 15 minutes we can make a deal on changing catch and release, changing the horrible asylum laws that are so unfair, changing visa lottery, chain migration, these laws are just horrendous. i won't explain them but everybody standing behind me knows exactly what they are.

fair dangerous for our country and inspired by democrats who have to change. one in three migrant women is sexually assaulted on the journey north. the border crisis is driving the drug crisis, 70,000 americans a year are killed by drugs, including meth, heroin, cocaine and fentanyl. and 70,000 is a number that's so low it probably shouldn't even be used anymore. the mass incursion of illegal aliens, deadly drops, weapons and criminal gang members across our border has to end. we're bringing out thousands and thousands a year of ms-13 gang members and other gang members that are just as bad, where they come into our country, they're able to skirt the border, come to areas where we don't have proper wall, where we don't have any wall at all, and they get into the country and they do a

lot of damage in my cases but we get them out by the thousands and we bring them back or we incarcerate them. the national emergency i declared last month was authorized by congress under the 1976 national emergencies act. and there haven't been too many that are a bigger emergency than we have right at our own border. consistent with the law and the legislative process designed by our founders, today i am vetoing this resolution. congress has the freedom to pass this resolution, and i have the duty to veto it. and i'm very proud to veto it and i'm very proud as i said of a lot of republican senators that were with me. i'm also very proud of the house, the republicans in the house voted overwhelmingly in favor of a secure border. since 1976 presidents have

declared 59 national emergencies. they often involved protecting foreign citizens in far-off lands. yet congress has not terminated any of them. every single one of them is still in existence. and yet we don't worry about our land, we worry about other people's land. that's why i say america first, if that's okay, america first. the only emergency congress voted to revoke was the one to protect our own country. so think of that, with all of the national emergencies, this was the one they don't want to do, and this is the one perhaps they should most do. we're joined today by many brave law enforcement offices including sheriff's and just people who have been just tremendous, tremendous backers of law and order, which we have to have. we're also joined by friends of mine, mary ann mendoza, ken

terry, laura wilkerson, sabine durden and streev ronbeck and i will ask steve to say a few words and some of the folks behind me to say also a few words as to the importance of what we're doing. there's nothing more important. as i said, i was elected on a very -- by a very, very great group of american people, millions of people because they want security for our country. i would like to ask secretary nielsen to say some words and attorney general bill barr and go to some of the folks behind me. and perhaps you would have something to say. then we're going to sign something that's going to give us safety at our border. madam secretary? >> president trump in the oval office moments ago, he will veto -- in fact he has now vetoed that termination of his national emergency declaration,

the president saying it's a tremendous national emergency, a tremendous crisis. again referring to it as dangerous and reckless what's taking place, specifically referring to that measure that was signed on by 12 republicans. we have our table back with us here. i feel like we've heard this so many times from the president and the oval office in the rose garden and every opportunity we hear from them. it doesn't change the fact apprehensions are at a several decades low at this point. but what it does reinforce is republicans can't override this. not going to join them here. the president has basically had congress at his back for the entire time and he's going to keep arrowing through, doesn't it, johnathan? >> this phase, it really is the go it alone presidency at this point. anything mulvaney, the chief of staff has spoken in very blunt terms internally that they cannot allow congress to get anything done so i think we will see a lot more unilateral action from the president. they're using their lawyers in ever more creative ways such as

this example but also we're going to see them drop all sorts of executive orders to go over the heads of congress. this is something that's much bigger than this particular action. >> elliott, let me ask you about where this goes next. congress, you need both chambers to have a two-thirds vote to override th override veto. they don't have that here. so what happens next, this goes to the courts and the president seemed to undercut his own argument by saying i didn't need to do this, i just wanted to do it faster but does it help these measures exist, republicans sign on and basically do congress say hey, we're not going to give you this money and they followed up with this with no, don't do this? >> not only that, congress is itself a party that can challenge the legality of the president's actions because they're the one who was wronged. in the law you have something called standing, when you're hurt, you have a right to sue.

say it once more with feeling, congress controls the power of the purse. the president does not. they made an explicit decision not to fund the president's wall. what was striking in the comments we just heard, peter, a bit of an aside, reasons he cited for reasons of the emergency, catch and release, visa lottery and chain migration, none of them would be changed by building a wall. those are immigration policy matters, not a function of people streaming across the border that there's some sort of emergency. every time he opens his mouth, he undermines his case for the national emergency. all of these votes, this most recent one can be used in court by congress. the other thing if we ever reach the point where we get to construction, which probably not because i t will take a long time, anybody whose property is seized at the border, all of that is private land in texas. >> domain issues as well. >> a lot of legal issues. all of this is going to come to court. no ground is being broken on anything any time soon just because of all of this

litigation. >> shelby, i want to ask you about this moment, two senators up for re-election, tom tillis said i oppose to emergency a few weeks ago but yesterday voted with the president. strikingly of the seven republican senators facing competitive races next year, six voted with the president yesterday. so there's been a moment where i think we've been saying, maybe this is a profile encouraged by some republicans. rob portman, mitt romney, others spoke out. but anybody facing a tough race on the republican side no, i will stick with this guy. >> they did and i think that's an important stat you just named. they're getting flak from republicans who believe trump is overstepping his boundaries. i think what in moment is showing us too is even though republicans have criticized democrats and president obama in the past for his executive overreach, they're willing to overreach themselves. so i think a lot of republicans are uneasy about what democrats will do down the line and that's

why we saw some of the defectors. but it's not enough, trump will override with the veto and he gets to say look at all of the people who voted with me, they're in my corner and i'm in their corner. that could matter in the next election. >> nick, what strikes you from the president's remarks today? >> he didn't mention his own party once, he brought the democratic led effort to embarrass him. >> 12 republican senators voted against him, 13 republican house members. >> but what i heard there was the president's campaign rational in a nutshell. you have this idea of a terrible invasion that's not true but the invasion the border was seeing crime come across and violence and danger that america is at stake if this hole isn't plugged. you saw, by the way, just to see where the ball is bouncing here, immediately jumps to legal immigration when he calls chain migration. lotteries and quotas, that's not part of legal immigration. that's not part of our current policy.

if he wants to change it, he can go to congress and say let's do a bill. instead he's wrapped up in this idea of a terrible emergency that he's the only doing anything about that campaign in 2020. >> i thought there was nothing interesting thing, it may come up in the video but he was asked by one of these reporters whether he was concerned about white nationalism being on the rise. >> he does answer that shortly. >> and trump says no, he thinks it's a small group of people. i think that's quite striking because we have statistics on this and we just saw this terrible killing in new zealand but in america, the anti-defamation league, we had statistics which show it's surging and in the last few years it's been far more of the terrorism domestically has been from the far right extremists than islamic extremists. so -- >> you're right, we're going to get to that topic. i had a conversation with a senior aide, someone close to the president, only a couple months ago when we were discussing this issue of white nationalism and rise in hate

crimes said of the adl, anti-defamation league's numbers, i believe those numbers are inflated. those numbers are inflated. when you have a fact-free presidency but also a president who's getting his information from his own sources including the people who sit by his side and feeding him that sort of disbelief of the facts, it really challenges the situation here. but at the ends of the day this is for the president, about motivating that base. we're well into 2020 right now as evidenced by the democrats. beto o'rouke announcing, joe biden likely to announce soon. for president trump, that's all there is at this point. not a lot he can get done independently. >> a colleague of my wrote, a dispatcher in pennsylvania from trump country, and what people there told him, trump voters, was they're acutely aware of the fact that america is not going to be a majority white country going down the road. they're acutely aware of it. they're sensitive to it. that's what this is all about. his basis people who foresee the day in which they are not the dominant group of people in america. and they're freaked out about it. >> by the way, that reflects

language used by -- not to suggest the president's base ha place overseas but that does reflect the language you hear in massacres like the went we just witnessed here, there's a sense we're under siege right now. >> you have to draw the line because it exists. there are more polite ways to express that sentiment but it's ruminating the idea white people feel like they're being pushed out of their country. that's the panic that's powering his campaign and presidency. >> elliot, what do you make of the fact this is the president's first veto? >> it's striking because the republicans have stuck with him up until now. because he's popular with republican senators and republican voters around the country. the one thing that can get congress -- republicans in congress it seems right now to buck the president is what is seen as a disrespect of their prerogative as a coequal branch of government. that's what this is about. i guess the question is if the president starts to get less and less unpopular, perhaps you

start seeing more republicans breaking from him. a lot of this comes down to how the president is seen within the party. but again, one guy worked in congress for a while, one thing that can really get under members of congress' skin is the idea they're being treated as lesser than the president. this was sort of a shot across the bow from senate republicans and obviously the majority in the house that hair both coequal branches of government and they will be respected. >> shelby, the president took a lot of pride in the first two years in office, some sort of in his words retiring senator bob corker, retiring jeff flake of arizona. these two that bucked him and as a result realized they would likely face challenges in the primaries. jeff flake said i can't win in this environment right now so i'm not going forward with this. do we anticipate the president retaliates against the republicans? he didn't mention them here. but does he retaliate? >> that's a good question. he didn't mention them and maybe they're encouraged by that. but a number of these republicans who voted against him have shown to not care in the past anyway. susan collins of maine, rand

paul. they go off and do their own thing quite often. mitt romney, they speak out against the president from time to time. but i think the fear that republicans have, even on twitter, even when he tweets about how he will remember who voted against him or when his people in the white house say the president will not forget this, i think the fear of the president either not supporting them in the next election or perhaps even worse, going after them like he went after jeff flake, is enough to change their minds. >> spoke to a senator this week who was with trump at the white house and they were surprised at how little pressure he put on them. they said it was quite weird. he was sort of, i know you're going to do that, fairly dismissive. let's not over interpret this moment. when we talk to republicans on the hill, none of them want to get on his wrong side. they're all still scared of him. the idea we're at some great turning point where the party is going to revolt against him, he owns the party. it's the donald trump party, and most of them are scared of him.

and if he really want to turn on them, he can make their lives miserable. >> johnathanathan, i think that function of how unpopular the president is. if his numbers started to tank -- >> but they haven't. >> i know they haven't. but if they do though, perhaps we will start seeing it more. i don't think this is sign of a mass revolt. >> we've been saying if they do for a long time. and this is a slim exception. i don't think we've seen them do it yet. elliot, thank you very much. to our panel, thank you, guys. stick with us. when we come back, president trump in the oval office answering questions as we discussed whether he sees white nationalism as a going threat around the world. i think you will be struck by the way he responded to that question. we have an expert's rebuttal to that as well. also a simple one-page status report from the special counsel's team today may indicate how imminent the mueller report may be, donald trump's legal nightmare is far from over. us as people.

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click, call or visit a store today. news today out of the russia probe suggests even if we are in the final days of robert mueller's investigation, president trump and his allies may be nowhere near the end of their long legal nightmare. a new court filing says former deputy trump chairman rick gates, who's been called a tour guide for prosecutors through the trump campaign and inauguration is still cooperating with investigators. from the status update filed this morning, quote, gates continues to cooperate with respect to several ongoing investigations, which likely include investigations that have spun out of mueller's probe. like in the southern district of new york here, which is looking into donald trump's inaugural committee, his finances and his business. today's news suggesting those investigations are likely still well under way comes as the president's anxiety over the end

of mueller's investigation is on full display. the president proclaiming in a multi tweet attack today on mueller this morning, quote, the special counsel should never have been appointed and there should be no mueller report. that is despite a nearly unanimous house vote that took place yesterday, 420-0, that mueller's findings should be made public. joining me at the tail is jill wine banks, former prosecutor and msnbc contributor. jill, let me ask you out of the gates right now. the sense is if robert mueller's winding down, this thing is all done. but this demonstrates the desire to talk to rick gates the next couple of months, next sentencing update isn't until may 14 but the tentacles, is the dny, eastern district of virginia, they're going to go on for a while. >> absolutely. i'm not one who's been predicting a speedy resolution of the mueller investigation.

i said i haven't seen any clues. and yesterday there was the clue about mr. weismann resigning and that made me think maybe they're wrapping up. but today i went no, they're not. if rick gates is still in play, they're not wrapping up. >> there's different segments to them. even if mueller's specific probe wiepds down, the other elements continue. >> exactly and there's so many tentacles, not just the new york d.a., not just the southern district, or virginia, but others in mueller's office. roger stone, the search of his house led to a delay in any proceedings about him because there was so much material that had to be reviewed. >> his trial date is november. that means we're talking about this at least nine month months. elliot, i want to bring you and ask you about the tale of two defends, mike flynn and rick gates. here's was the sentencing update

said about mike flynn, it said in the government's view the cooperation is complete. about rick gates it said something very different, which is we want to keep talking to this guy. rick gates, of course, was the deputy chairman of the inaugural committee. we know the southern district of new york has been very interested in what took place there, this sense there was a massive gala that took place in washington just days before the inauguration, where there were all sorts of foreign officials and others in the room. these concerns about illegal foreign contributions. what do you make about the fact that rick gates is who they're honing in on here? >> it's funny as a former prosecutor, i waited my whole life for the day one paid status reports were met with glee across the spectrum. here's the thing, rick gates is an central figure. it's not just inaugural ties and also august 2, 2016 meeting where we know he was president with konstantin kilimnik and paul manafort. so clearly he's a central figure

in either southern district of new york's investigations or special prosecutor investigations or frankly other investigations that we may not know about that he's still being -- being useful and cooperating. a lot of this comes down to incentive, why you keep something cooperating is they have an incentive to do so until they're sentenced, right. they're not ready to sentence him yet. it looks like there's much more corporation. and jill touched on this too, we just don't know what's out there in terms of other investigations that are still sort of in the pe perk lags phase. this should be interesting. >> rick gates is unique. there's not a single other person who has knowledge of manafort's business dealings, the trump campaign at the highest level and then continues through after the election into the transition period. he's a unique witness. and i'm not surprised they're trying to bring every single thing out of him and i'm not surprised if he's dealing with the ourn district because that's a very common thing once you're cooperating with one to be cooperating with the other.

there's no one else who has the breadth of knowledge rick gates has. >> jonathan is right but we have to remember the one meeting in the cigar bar where material was passed, polling data, to a russian intelligence officer. that is what we're calling unfortunately collusion because it's not a crime. we want to call it a conspiracy. but it's clearly related to russia-gate and that's a very important thing that we've been silent on terms of indictments but we're not done yet. >> i also think it's interesting when judge amy berman jackson sentenced manafort, she went out of her way to say the special counsel's investigation is still ongoing. she said it's not particularly persuasive for you and you're lawyer to say no collusion or the investigation hasn't turned up anything when you have been lying to the investigators. she's seen a lot more material than we've seen. >> she also said the cases she was overseeing were entirely unrelated to the collusion. >> and i thought that was interesting. >> let me read for you, this is

from "the washington post." the headline is inside the opulent trump inaugural dinner designed as a glittery overture to foreign diplomats. paid for by donors to the inaugural committee, the event, but thomas barrack, one of the president's close friends, style of global networking on display and gave foreign guests an aun paralleled chance to mingle with the incoming vice president, other members of the new administration and lawmakers. and how usual, how problematic is that? this is an administration that's been dealing with all sorts of concerns about ties to foreign governments as evidenced by jared kushner's clearance issues and the like. even before they got started, they had a ton of these folks in the same room, vetting them with cash in effect, to celebrate the new presidency >> as ritzy as the dinner was, it was a "star wars" cantina of the early term administration. aside from the idea that was accurate that the foreign corps didn't know this president, didn't have a connection to him,

was kind of freaked out about him, there was a class of people coming in along for the ride to influence peddle, to show they had connections, taking pictures with the president, show clients in other countries, impressive to those clients, right, going to make connections and get ready to do business with an administration they saw as virgin territory. >> the other thing people forget is just how easy it was to get to trump in that period. i come from australia. the way our prime minister got to trump, he had to get his number from greg norman the golfer. no meetings happened. the state department had no idea about them. >> book a hotel room not too far aw away at a guy named trump's place. >> it was a fee for all. and they spent an ungodly amount of money for an inauguration. it's unclear how you can spend that much money. >> this event, $8,000 a person. >> one thing the president tweeted was the special counsel should never have been appointed and there should be no mueller

report. this is more of that sort of disinformation campaign, the pr blitz for the president, when in fact he knows he's not going to get indicted, that's his presumption, this is political. >> i'm not sure he will not get invited. i always believed the president could be indicted and i believe could actually even be tried. if he can be put forward in a civil case, why not a criminal case? a criminal case is much more important. but his statement is what all criminals do. it's not me, it's someone else. it shouldn't happen. the prosecutor is corrupt. the prosecutor is bad. angry democrats. that's what he keeps saying and the fact-based absence is what is so scary because without a free press and facts, where are we? paula duncan, the juror in the manafort trial gives me hope because she's a loyal trump supporter who said i am, i think it's a witch-hunt and a hoax. it's not a witch-hunt. and the facts in that trial were

so obvious i had to vote to convict manafort on 18 counts. that gives me some hope. zblf but that's absurd the way it was communicated. >> i think legally he could be indicted. >> the white house folks with whom i speak say that's not with the concern is right now, they view that as a political framework and that's why the president framed it that way. jill wine-banks, thank you for being with us. and right after the break, the president on the growing threat of white nationalism. it's striking comments from the oval office are next.

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they're america's biopharmaceutical researchers. pursuing life-changing cures in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs... like a way to fight cancer by arming a patient's own t-cells... because it's not just about the next breakthrough... it's all the ones after that. 49 people are dead in new zealand after a terrible mass shooting that took place at two mochk mosques in the town of christchurch. police charged a 28-year-old australian man with murder who they extreme as an extremist. joining us now reverend al sharpton, most at msnbc and president of the action network. first we want to turn to brian,

the sent of the of hate and extremism from california state. i want to play for you what the president said just moments ago. he was asked about the rise of white nationalism at his veto ceremony signing that took place. here's what he said, people are already talking about it. i want to have you help fact check and take a listen. >> what do you say that white nationalists are a rising threat around the world? >> i don't really. i think it's a small group of people who very, very serious problem. if you look at perhaps what happened in new zealand, perhaps that's a case. i don't know enough about it yet. they're just learning about the person and people involved. it's certainly a terrible thing. te terrible thing. >> brian, that was president trump moments ago asked if he sees nationalism as a rising threat. he said i don't, i think it's just a small group of people. you know the facts who study this intensely, is white nationalism just a small group of people and is it fair to say it is not on the rise? >> nothing to see here, everyone. move along.

nothing happening, no. it's completely ridiculous and it belies the actual facts and data we have. our friends at the adl, gary port was mentioned, we have our own research that we do, adl looks at when extremists commit any kind of violence, including nonideologic, we focused in on extremists who are actually committing ideologic violence and we have the same results. there was only one, one fatality from a violent jihadist in the united states last year and it was a guy who converted from being a white supremacist the year before. we have seen an increase white nationalist far right homicide in the united states over the last three years and they flipped, in other words, we've seen them decline with respect to jihadists and definite, unmistakenable increase with respect to both the fatalities but also other kinds of things.

so public engagement, look, there was an abc news/"washington post" poll, 9% of americans say it's acceptable and we are seeing this activity occur around the world. i did something for nbc think some months ago about the global aspects of this and if anything proves it, it's the horrible attack we saw in new zealand, where the alleged manifesto is an amalgam of neo-nazi and white nationalist material from around the world. >> brian, help me if you can, i want to talk about sort of presidential leadership in moments like this. because that's something else you've looked at. you can see the impact of when presidents speak out in moments like this, after 9/11. different circumstance from that. what is the impact and how important are the words of our political leaders at times like this? >> critically important. not every time a leader says something does it have an actual immediate effect.

however, it does have a long-term potential effect balls what it does is it promotes negative stereotypes that label certain individuals and groups as legitimate targets of aggression. but let's get to the numbers. president bush spoke six days after 9/11 at the islamic center in d.c. talked about tolerance, hate crimes against muslims dropped according to fbi data we analyzed with our friends james nolan at west virginia university -- >> they dropped after the president spoke out about anti-muslim hate crimes after 9/11, and what happened after the president announced his travel ban, his muslim ban? >> after he announced the travel ban, we found a significant increase above and beyond the elevated spike that we saw from the terrorist attack that occurred in san bernardino five days before. one other quick thing, november 2016 jim nolan and i found it was the worst month for hate crimes since the first anniversary of 9/11, the day

after the election, we had an anti-muslim bomb plot and it was the worst day, 44 hate crimes according to the fbi, worst day going back to 2003. the data just did not support what was said. >> it's an issue that sparked a lot of passion here. rev, i want to get your take on this right now. this 28-year-old australian brought up dylann roof. he brought this home for americans, a young man who walked into an african-american church in charleston, south carolina, and started killing people. this is a worldwide community that's -- >> that is why it is so appalling what the president said. first of all, he was dismissive, saying it was a small group. then he said he did not know if they were involved. the man wrote a manifesto saying who he was. i know the president doesn't read his briefing papers but i thought he watched television. the man identified who he was. and he acted although he should not take the real tone of denouncing this in the rise of

hate crimes in this country and around the world. just a tone of being dismissive about this and acting as if there's something to litigate here whether or not there was a white nationalist, when the man wrote a 70-page manifesto on who he was. so who doesn't get this but donald trump. >> the president's aides today said he has repeatedly condemned bigotry and racism. this is a president who said there are people on both sides -- >> he had the world looking at him as he played this veto of press conference -- >> what should he have said? put the words in his mouth. >> he should have said this is despicable. it doesn't matter whether the group is huge or not, that white nationalists should be prosecuted to the full degree of the law, and anywhere this occurs, i as president of the united states will enforce. he should have denounced it and not have acted like there's something here to see whether or not we know what this is when

the guy said let me show you with a manifesto who i am. >> one of the stunning trends is the impact of the internet. this was a guy live streaming this attack as it took place, literally before most of the tech companies had woken up, it was all over the place, red it, blog sites used by hate groups here. this is the way we can dispute what the president said because we know the facts, this is not a small group anymore. it's a growing issue, and growing group of people white nationalists not just in the u.s. but around the world and now they have an avenue to communicate to continue to grow their ranks. >> the old day you could get a newsletter in the mail, send e-mails but now you can congregate and find other people like you and feel less alone and communicate across border. it's a global movement. they share ideas. but the president today in this very press conference used the term invasion to describe what's happening at the southern

border. the shooter in new zealand talked about invaders coming to his land. it's a commonality of the rhetoric, people who don't look like us are coming to our country and taking it away from us. that is the dangerous thing about the way the president approaches his own politics. >> to be fair the president did say this is a terrible thing, these are sick people. after his comment about it's a small group of people, he said these are terrible people. but, you know, first of all, would it be difficult to say yeah, i'm really concerned about the rise of white nationalism? >> or to the muslim community say we are with you. >> thank you. >> and it needs to be more -- it needs to be more clear that you denounce it, that you take it seriously. >> and also he had the obligation since the shooter mentioned dylann roof. there was a direct connection with a hate killing here in the country, and he could have used that. he talks always generally after the fact about bigotry. he had a specific reference to an american who killed nine

people in a church on an occasion where 49 people were killed in two mosques. he could have addressed it. he could have rose to that occasion. particularly since he said he's a nationalist but i'm not saying i'm with that group of nationalists. he had an obligation to come forward and be real clear today. he didn't do it. he was dismissive. he even said they have a problem. what do you mean they have a problem? they are terrorists, they're killers. >> jonathan, what do his aides and people talk to around the white house when you and i and people like us press them on why the president just can't say something like that? >> they tend to be defensive and they don't tend to share the opinions that are being held around this table. so i think privately fretting in a great state of, they're defensive. and they always point to statements that he's made. what they don't honestly acknowledge is that when he does talk about crime, it's typically immigrant crime and it's always case studies of immigrants who

have committed crimes. >> are you guys staying with us a second? we will take a quick break and be right back with much more on the other side. r side truecar is great for finding new cars. you're smart, you already knew that. but it's also great for finding the perfect used car. you'll see what a fair price is and you can connect with a truecar certified dealer. now you're even smarter. this is truecar.

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a terrible thing referring to 50 people who were killed in new zealand. the death toll has risen by one. the hands of a 28-year-old australian man. why can't president trump disavow in clear, concise terms white nationalism? >> i think it is in his mind to go against some of those that he considers his base. >> who is he speaking to? >> he is speaking to white nationalists. he's speaking to people that have a bigotry that he is comfortable. somebody who said there are good people on both sides of charlottesville. when you play the tape back, they're a small group, people with a lot of problems. these are not problem people.

these are terrorists. and if he spoke with the same passion that he speaks about people at the border, khrae thames are doing all kinds of things. >> he yeah. >> you notice how aggressive his language was about people coming across the border but how he was i'm not too sure about white nationalists and about a killing where the killer gave a manifesto in exactly what he was doing? that's deliberate. that is not something. he just missed the point. >> how do we combat this? >> take a page away from the white nationalists who are continuing to spread their hate across the planet. >> we need a renewed vigor with respect to the kphaoupbl institutions that hold us together. with regards to white national im, look at the polling in every single country in europe and find out about these extreme right anti-tkpwreupt parties.

what we need is a complete statement that says we want to eradicate this bigotry root and branch and we stand by our muslim friends and neighbors. a critical statement against them. and the problem is when this president says things it was said in the abstract. but then he goes and retweets false data from white genocide. that's the actual twitter handle. and, again, this other stuff, where he's retweeted stuff from hate offenders in britain. so you can't be half pregnant. you either have to stand with our fellow citizens or you don't. and these are leadership

positions, sir. >> brian, we appreciate your thoughts and expertise on this. you have to take one quick break. come on back. k. come on back with expedia, i saved when i added a hotel to our flight. so even when she grows up, she'll never outgrow the memory of our adventure. unlock savings when you add select hotels to your existing trip.

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my thank to nicole for allowing me to fill in. thank you all very much. i appreciate it. that's going to do it for this hour. mtp daily starts now. that hey, chuck. >> if it's friday, how is your march going? >> good evening. i'm chuck todd in washington. welcome to "meet the press" daily. the president used his veto power for the first time. his emergency declaration at the border which of course is about getting money for his wall, which keeps hitting a wall. the pnt