that does it for me. thank you for watching. "a.m. joy" with joy reid starts now. >> managed to get the other gun and start shooting at me. i managed to get in between the cars and get away from the firing. when i went to the site of the mosque and saw there was a dead body with a shotgun there. i just grabbed that shotgun. >> good morning. welcome to "a.m. joy." firsthand accounts are beginning to come in from survivors of the mass shootings at two mosques in christchurch, nz. we have grim details on the attacks. one additional victim was found while officials were clearing the shooting sites. the suspected shooter is an australian citizen and

self-described white nationalist. he's in custody charged with murder. the gunman used facebook to narrate and livestream the assault. his apparent manifesto is filled with racist, anti-muslim and anti-immigrant diatribes and he praised donald trump as, quote, a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose. the prime minister confirmed that the suspect's manifesto which spread wildly on social media was also circulated by e-mail nine minutes before the attack. nbc news correspondent sarah james joins me now from new zealand. just to get an update, there were two different mosques attacked. do we now know whether the same gunman is responsible for both attacks or have other people been arrested? >> they believe the australian

in custody was the sole gunman, that he was responsible for the attacks at both mosques. they believe he's responsible for the incredible carnage. 50 people killed and 50 people injured. in fact, there are more than 30 people in hospital. 12 of them are in critical condition. at the height of this they had 12 operating rooms in operation at the same time. it is hard to comprehend the scale of what they have had to deal with. the other two people who were arrested at the same time, both of them, they say, had nothing to do with this particular crime. but the investigation is continuing. it is an investigation here in new zealand and it also stretches across the sea to australia. the gunman is from australia. this is monday morning in new zealand. people will be getting back to work. children will be getting back to school. they were in lockdown on friday.

the number one concern for police today is ensuring public safety. they are going to have another hundred -- more than a hundred additional officers on the street. meantime they are still trying to come to terms with the scene in the main mosque where so many people were killed. this is a huge task. they have brought other people from australia to help them go about identifying the victims and reuniting the bodies of the victims with loved ones to make sure they can receive a proper muslim burial. that's been a daunting task. i'm standing at one of the memorials where people are coming to leave flowers and messages of hope and strength as the city battles on. joy? >> thank you, sarah james. appreciate that from christchurch, new zealand. joining me is jennifer are you ben, jonathan katy perrcapehear.

disclosure laws are different in new zealand. here are some of the victims. you know, jennifer, these tragedies just happened so sadly routinely in the united states. >> yes. >> it's hard to grasp that for a country like new zealand where this doesn't happen, where they don't have mass shootings every month like we do here, one in 50 muslim citizens in that community were somehow touched by the tragedy. what do you make of the response so far from the american president and white house? >> it's an abomination. can you imagine if this was a muslim terrorist? would the president of the united states say, just a few people, not a big deal. are you upset, concerned about

the rise in this type of terrorism? no, no, just a few people. it is an abomination. first of all, this is an international problem. just like islamic terrorism is international. it gets fed around the internet. people get radicalized. it has ideology. the person declares his ideology. donald trump seemed to be suggesting there was doubt about that which is a false flag theory. it has every indication, every counterpoint to islamic terrorism yet this president doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't want to hear it because it doesn't serve his purpose and may reflect badly on some of his own followers. if you take out the violence they really subscribe to pretty much the same views with the same language. >> you have this anti-immigrant xenophobic kind of id being expressed not just in the united states but around europe as well. donald trump signed on fully to the steve bannon camp of the

saints kind of terrified reaction to immigration in general and to muslim immigration specifically. but in this case what's different is this terrorist named donald trump. name-checked him as sort of a symbol of white identity. >> mm-hmm. >> yet when donald trump -- he wasn't asked about it. i wish he had been. his director of strategic communications was asked about donald trump being name-checked. the president of the united states being name-checked. here's what she said. >> the shooter in the new zealand attacks cited the president in his manifesto. i wonder if the white house has any reaction. >> it's outrageous to make the connection between this deranged individual that committed this evil crime to the president who has repeatedly condemned bigotry, racism and made it clear this is a terrorist attack. >> i'm just going to leave that to jonathan. >> you know what i will say.

child, please. i looked at the date on that video just to make sure. that was friday. >> mm-hmm. >> so she was probably in the mode of, well, i haven't seen this, i haven't heard this so deny. now we know. in the report we just saw it was confirmed by the new zealand prime minister that president trump was, indeed, named in this manifesto. how does the president himself, the administration walk away and deny the president's own rhetoric since he came down the escalator june 16, 2015, has not contributed to the actions there. there was a time when a horrific crime, murder, a slaughter like this, when people would look to the united states, look to the american president to be part of the healing to take place for a nation and for a people who matter where they were in the world. america was supposed to be that

beacon of morality, of justice. now here we are in the reverse situation where it is now the president of the united states who is named as an inspiration for murder and slaughter. this is how far we have fallen in the eyes of the world. >> indeed. the attempt to try to find alternative explanations for this terrorist act, they have gone pretty far. we don't normally play kellyanne conway on this show. we don't. but i will play her today. she might have had the most creative attempt at deflection that we heard so far from this being a white nationalist terrorist attack. listen. >> in the manifesto i saw he fancies himself -- he says the country that's most aligned with his political views or his views is china. he says i'm not a conservative, not a nazi. he certainly is a ruthless killer. >> so he's a pro china eco

terrorist. it's china. like donald trump you can always blame china. he's really an eco-terrorist, not a nazi and not right wing. >> the problem is when you use terms like mexicans are rapists, shit-hole country, invasion, one of the things we have seen in this country and around the world is when there is an uptick in immigration from other countries, when there is a refugee crisis we see this fear of what we have -- some people term as white genocide. the world is changing. it will forever be changed. the fact that the president of the united states uses this language, no one can underestimate the impact his language uses on people who want to extract pain out of others who don't look like them. >> it's not the first time. we saw the same language again used in pittsburgh when we went

after people on the belief they were somehow manipulating, somehow helping the invaders, the caravan. it happened with the bomber in florida whose van was covered with donald trump-inspired messages. >> charlottesville. the president found no fault with what happened in charlottesville. the person who committed the killings in pittsburgh said he can't stand by and watch his people be slaughtered. >> let's play charlottesville in case people forgot. this is august of 2017, donald tru trump's reaction to a neo-nazi march that ended with a woman dead. >> you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. >> on both sides. the challenge here for donald trump is he can't fully kick away from white nationalists because at least some of the

appeal of donald trump is the idea that he's defending white christian america against everyone else. if he were to really repudiate them, i guess the risk is electoral. >> right. but also let's keep in mind perhaps the president actually believes this. it is not just political but a deeply held belief. when he said it in the press conference in august, think that was the third bite of the apple to get it right. >> to fix it. >> in terms of his response to charlottesville. in that moment, that clip he ceded the moral authority of the presidency. no president of the united states should make a moral equivalent between nazis and truly very fine people standing up for the ideals of this country. no, we are not a perfect country, nor will we ever be. when people are saying, no to naziism, no to white supremacy,

no to white nationalism, no to racism, those are the angels of america. >> the right seems more angry at antifa which stands for anti-fascism. that's what they want to focus on. >> i was going to add for any viewer who is watching and believes that they're safe if they are not jewish or not black or not latino i would urge people to go back and really look at the history of white nationalism in the united states. there was a time period when, for example, there were whites who were anti-immigrant and they sort of divided classes among white people. there was discrimination against greeks, armenians, polish jews. >> irish, italian. >> we go forward and back. women are the enemy. people of color are the enemy. one day white people who somehow find themselves on the bottom of the totem pole by those in power

will be on the outs also. >> can i mention, too, this administration cut the funds for the department of homeland security agency that's supposed to be counter balancing extremism and wanted to shift to look at black extremism rather than white nationalism and lied about it. >> at a time the incidence of white nationalism is soaring, hate crimes are soaring. you have to appreciate how closely this is tied to donald trump. the entire replacement -- >> the jews will not replace us. >> right. >> that's what they are saying. >> can i ask you a question? the other thing people may find odd is at the same time he's trying to court jewish-americans and say leave the democratic party at the same time as dropping this thinly veiled globalist -- how can those things happen at the same time? >> he's not trying to cater to jews. he's catering to the evangelical

right. >> they believe in the end -- >> right. when he mentions jews it is always in the context of israel. talk about a dual loyalty implication. whatever other views they have are unimportant. >> i think he can sit back and doesn't have to say anything. what the implication is -- of course i'm not anti-jew. my son-in-law is jewish. my daughter has converted to judaism. you don't have a problem in the white house. coming up, medi hassan is here with his take on right wing extremism helping to create the tragedy in new zealand next. nd . think only specialty stores have what's new? olay has the hottest debut. new olay clay stick masks, hydrating facial mist, and brightening eye cream.

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when people are getting attacked in their own -- >> a 17-year-old boy who cracked an egg on an australian senator is being hailed as a hero. the hashtag egg boy trended yesterday afternoon. the senator blamed muslim immigration for friday's terrorist attack on two mosques that left 50 people dead. australia's prime minister is suggesting the senator should be charged for striking the boy in

retaliation. mehdi hasan from the intercept and host of the deconstructed podcast, also a presenter been aljazeera english's "up front." good to have you. >> thank you for having me. >> i wanted to have you on the show. i'm glad you can be here in person. >> i appreciate it. >> that was significant for the violent retribution he visited on a child, a 17-year-old boy -- fully punched him in the face twice. also for what the senator had been saying before which was this elaborate justification of the slaughter in new zealand by saying, well, we shouldn't be letting in these muslim invaders. >> yes. >> how pervasive is the thinking? that's australia. this is new zealand. how pervasive is this? >> thank god it's not that pervasive. there's been universal condemnation even from right wing politicians have said this is beyond the pale. it's absurd. just the humanity of it.

whether you say that about people gunned down in cold blood. here in the use louis gomer talked about it being resolved in other ways like there was a legitimate grievance on the part of the shooter. he shouldn't have shot them. he should have taken them to court. asking the muslims, victim blaming is a problem. as i say, it is not just about the politics. what kind of people do this. >> the last time my husband and i were in london several months ago, i was struck by how different london is now. it's a metropolitan city. you see a lot of women in jobs, a very international sort of look to london. not everybody loves it. if you think about brexit. >> the far right call it londonistan and attack the mayor. >> the president of the united states has a problem with the mayor of lopd. -- london. i wonder why. >> unfortunately lots of europe

and the united states, there is an underpinning and yes extremists will create an act of murder but there is a climate of islamaphobia. >> it is easy to condemn the far right nut case. look at the soil and what's been created, the culture of demonization of fear, of incitement from main stream columnists, pundits, tv hosts, politicians. the president of the united states is the world's most prominent islamaphobe. >> you taught a course that dealt with the treatment of muslims by the media. i have two sets of headlines. two "new york times" headlines. on the left, terrorists strike charlie hebdo newspaper in paris leaving 12 dead. in christchurch, signs point to a gunman steeped in internet

trolling. two daily mirror headlines. isis maniac kills 50 in gay club. on the right, angelic boy who grew into a killer. >> there is white privilege there. yes, isis killers don't get to be angelic boys though some of them may have been before they became killers. there is a case of the white mass shooter, was he mentally ill, deranged, loner, lone wolf? the muslim -- if you believe it, we are immune to mental illness. we can't be mentally ill. if you look at the coverage, the word terrorism isn't used for people who aren't muslim. we have been conditioned to believe a terrorist attack is only an attack carried out by a brown dude with a beard shouting in arabic. the adl says three-quarters of

terrorist deaths in the united states over the past decade were carried out by far right domestic terrorists. a quarter by muslims. can we say the media coverage of trempl is 75% white nationalists, 25% islam? georgia state university did a study and found muslim terrorist gets four and a half times more coverage than a nonmuslim terrorist. >> think about the las vegas killer who gunned down hundreds of people. >> hard to remember him. he's gone. >> no one talks about it. >> the georgia state guys found a nonmuslim terrorist has to kill seven people more than a muslim terrorist for equal coverage. that's a hashtag media fail. i'm reminded of the tweet that terrorism is one of the only area where white people do most of the work and get none of the credit. it is a problem. it leads to racism, fear on the part of communities of immigrants. that's where the terrorism threat is from brown people,

foreign people. not the terrorism threat in our midst even if dylann roof kills nine black people in a church. >> and gets a nice meal of burgers and fries. >> doesn't get called a terrorist. robert bowers killed 11 jewish worshippers last year. doesn't get charged with terrorism. shooter is the word used in the headline, not terrorist. i have a problem with the war on terror discourse. >> sure. >> let's be consistent. >> the other thing and i want to bring it up is people aren't familiar with camp of the saints which is a distoep yan novel about the migration of muslims steve bannon subscribes to and people on the far right. clearly donald trump must subscribe to the idea. >> he doesn't read books. >> there's been a notable decrease in immigration, migration to europe between 2014 when the real peak happened. brought on a lot by violence in syria. a lot of refugees flowed into

europe which seems to coincide with the sudden uptick and the nativist across europe attitude toward muslims, if not 9/11 sparking some of it here. how does this wind up impacting people who are in desperate situations who need somewhere to go. >> massively. the backlash has been driven through the national security prism. that's the worst language of all. donald trump ongives the statement saying it is a horrible attack and then pivots to the wall calling it an invasion t. terrorist in new zealand said the people were invaders. the president of the united states using the same language as a man who killed 50 people in new zealand hours later. it's shocking. the statistics are clear. you are more likely to be killed by a vending machine falling on you than by a foreign-born refugee terrorist in the united states. we talk about how it's to do

with terrorist attacks. there was a study a while back which showed spikes in islamaphobia comes every four years. >> elections. i said this to you when we were on "all in." it is easy to focus on donald trump. he's one person. he couldn't thrive unless there was an environment where more than just himself had this fear and this loathing. even as a kid watching the coverage of the palestinian people with no empathy, no sense that this is a people who deserve something. they are human beings. that's not a donald trump thing. it is an american thing. >> donald trump is a symptom, not a cause of this fear and hatred and loathing. he's ridden it to power and exacerbated it, emboldened it. it's not just about the

islamaphobia. if you are a brown or black person whether covering crime in the '80s, the idea of demonization, these people being the other. they don't look or sound like us. less empathy, less sympathy. think about the guy in new zealand. how do you do that? how do you carry out a massacre? i was talking to my wife. what human being does this? think of the politics. pulling the trigger on innocent people. you have to view these people as cockroaches. the dehumanzation at the core of this. that's where the language, rhetoric, fear comes in. not knowing people, there is a poll on twitter this morning which shows across the board the americans who are least likely to be islamaphobic is americans who know muslims. it is people who only know about muslims from fox news or a brett stevens column in the "new york times" or a column in the "wall street journal" or whatever it is. breitbart news.

only know the palestinians from coverage of the conflict, not having met a refugee. they are people who have the views of people that are like animals. you hear republican politicians say it all the time. >> we don't use the language of radicalization when it comes to terrorists in new zealand. >> the question isn't where was he radicalized. we don't ask moderate people to come out and condemn the extreme violent christians. the double standards are there. this doesn't happen accidentally. like it doesn't happen to jihadists accidentally. there is an infrastructure, an environment, an industry fostering this stuff online. we talk about the online stuff. we don't talk about the main stream enough. i have seen so many journalists and politicians on the right especially say horrible, sympathy, solidarity. are you saying this on the other

days of the year when there is no mad man killing 50 people in a mosque? it is easy to condemn when there is a terrorist attack. what about the rest of the year when you are fuelling it or turning a blind eye to it. >> we have to talk about guns. it is remarkable how quickly new zealand saw it and said, oh, no more assault weapons. by the way, didn't isis advise adherents to support u.s. gaun laws? >> it is remarkable. from an american point of view it is remarkable. from a global point of view it is not remarkable. australia had a mass shooting. they banned guns. no mass shootings since. in my country in the uk in scotland, horrific school shooting many years ago. i can't remember the year. more than a decade. the labor government banned handguns. no mass shootings as well. new zealand had tough gun laws but are going to semi-automatic weapons.

it is only in the u.s. where there are mass shootings and you say, oh, thoughts and prayers. we have to deal with video games. >> we blew through the break to give you time. i will give you another minute. this has been the case for so long. i feel this stream of islamaphobia is lurking. 9/11 exacerbated it and the stream of refugees to europe exacerbated it. you have marie la pen popping up. we see the outshoots of it here. what can we do about it? >> there is no easy solution. a lot of people say to muslims you do something. i was saying the same thing to people campaigning for black lives matter. the victims of persecution and marginzation cannot. i would say white moderates, liberals who have good intentions. don't turn a blind eye. don't wait to get to a stage of

mosques. this is not just a problem for muslims but for all of us. >> remarkably they have a problem with the other abrahamic religion that isn't christian. >> if you are having a problem with anti-semitism, look at our president, the people who support him. it's a problem. we have to stick through it together. >> mehdi hasan, it would be great if we had an american president to lead that. that would be nice. >> it would be. >> thank you. we'll do it again. >> appreciate it. >> up next, a closer look at the two shiny new democrats who jumped into the 2020 race. get some coffee, come right back. ome right back (vo) parents have a way of imagining the worst... ...especially when your easily distracted teenager has the car. at subaru, we're taking on distracted driving [ping]

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it's really going to take all of us. it can't be one party against another. >> 10k, right here! >> look, he's literally running. former congressman beto o'rourke hit an iowa 5k for st. patrick's day after announcing his 2020 presidential bid this week. besides getting in a good sprint he chatted up voters on the importance of unity and reaching across party lines.

meanwhile this morning new york senator kirsten gillibrand debuted her slogan. brave wins. joining me you jonathan capeheart, dana millbank and tiffany cross of the beat d.c. we have a lot of "the washington post" guests. we're in your own. i'm going to the middle. only one person here rocked the full goatee. you're halfway there. >> i didn't shave. >> you committed. you're in. >> until it's down to here. until we have a new president. >> i like that. you're committed now. let's go with beto first. his campaign is cool. it's cool to get annie leibowitz [whistle] to do a cool reaganesque photo of you. he's jumping on counters. what is the run about? >> it seems to be about having the nation talk about

psychedelic warlords and the cult of the dead cow. these are things he brought in. >> that's why i went to you. >> in the national arena. he was out with beto. we use his first name. there was beto mania. young people, latinos were going crazy for him. the question is were they crazy for him or because he was running against ted cruz. the most hated man in america. i think he does have potential to shake things up. he does have the potential to fall completely flat. people say this is a completely empty vessel. i don't know the answer. >> can we show this reagan versus time cover? i have to show it. it does feel like a thing is being created. i'm one who doesn't believe necessarily campaigns are won on substance. a lot of it is the appeal. it is things other than your

plans. in having a thin record doesn't hurt you. the cow thing is all they've got. is he sort of advantaged by not having the hard-core specifics of elizabeth warren that someone can attack? >> he's advantaged in that way and in the media. the media loves this guy. they look like beto. of course he gets live coverage of jumping on counters. he could be talking to five people. he's excited and excitable. i don't think that's necessarily fair to the other candidates. like when elizabeth warren announced her exploratory committee like, oh, the first person announced. that's not true. julian castro announced a month before and didn't enjoy that coverage. the media didn't learn their lesson. we saw what happened in 2016 when you laud a candidate with free advertising and free press. it's happening again. i agree when he ran in texas it was worthy of talking about.

we were in midterms. he was running against unpopular candidate ted cruz. still lost but definitely inched texas toward purple. this time around he's not running against a republican. they have to run against each other. he has to distinguish himself. he has to distinguish himself from other rock star candidates like kamala harris. like mayor pete buttigieg. we have been debating how to pronounce his name. >> well done. >> buttigieg. i'm sticking with it. when biden gets in, that will be another monkey wrench in the plans. we'll see. i just want to challenge some of the main stream media outlets to give folks equal coverage. again, so many people get news from the 24-hour echo chamber. when you focus on one person that's dis pproportionate it's disservice to the viewers. >> one needs to be a marketer when you run for president.

you are marketing to the media. one of the things beto is getting a lot of ink on is his views on race. there are african-american candidates, julian castro. one of the things he said is he spoke to an almost entirely white crowd in iowa and made the point that the people hurt most by marijuana prohibition do not look like the people in this room. he has an appeal to a white voter who otherwise may like joe biden or bernie sanders but he's talking race, unity and doing a thing that's obamaesque. does that matter more than some of the substance of the other people? >> it's terrific he goes before white audiences and talks about important issues not just to black and brown people but to all people. putting black and brown concerns

before the nation saying this is important. it may not be important to you. it is important to us as a country. that's great. my issue with now candidate beto o'rourke's campaign so far is it seems flash. not a lot of substance. you came into the segment showing him doing the 5-k race, running. that's what we are talking about now. meanwhile on another network already concluded, pete buttigieg -- >> wait a minute. he changed his name. doesn't mayor pete get to decide? >> i'm going with it. pete buttigieg was on with chris wallace today, one of the hardest sunday show interviews. that's one of the first things he does as a candidate. mayor pete is there talking about substance. he's there talking about real big issues.

from what i can tell on the twitters, the performance he gave with chris wallace is the same one he gave. you ask mayor pete any question on any issue, he'll give you an answer. i would love to see the kind of substance that we are getting from mayor pete come from beto o'rourke. >> warren is running a substantive campaign. she's running on all issues. >> the real problem is us in the media. it's really not our fault. there are 15 candidates, maybe 17. there is a lot of shorthand. are you for the green new deal or against it? are you for medicare for all or against it. putting everybody in boxes. you have a nice quote. there is substance in all of these guys. i don't know how you get it out when there are so many of them. >> before we run out of time here is her announcement video.

>> we need a leader who makes big bold brave choices. someone who isn't afraid of progress. that's why i'm running for president. it's why i'm asking you for support. will brave win? >> all of the women have to distinguish themselves. how does kirsten gillibrand stack up? >> she's actually going to have challenges. i don't know if she's the most exciting candidate out there. she's running on this me too movement that she's been a huge champion. nobody will disagree. everybody is on that page. >> people will disagree with the al franken part of it. >> that discussion deserves to happen on the campaign trail. she has a sexual harassment issue herself. >> on the staff. >> her staff, not her. thank you, jonathan. not her. on her staff. some people are calling

hypocrisy. there was a staffer who complained that a married superior was harassing her. she didn't fire him. she said, nobody could corroborate the story. this is the opposite of what she said about kavanaugh and the fact she was outspoken on al franken. these things will come up to bite her. and there are people, i count myself among them who don't identify white women in the movement of diversity. when you look at that, i don't know if there are -- a white man, a white woman. i feel great about it. that will resonate. >> people said give me pete buttigieg, whichever way you are going with it. and biden. putting forward ideas of beto/biden, two white men. is that possible and viable in today's democratic party? >> perhaps not.

everybody will have to be the flavor of the week. it may be more about ideology than gender or race. gillibrand was conservative and is moving away from that. that's hard in a democratic party. moving from the right to the left. tulsi gabbard, kirsten gillibrand. you have biden who was making a slip the other day of saying he says things like we need to be friends with the other side. beto says the same thing. does the bipartisan talk work in a democratic primary? >> i don't know if it works in a democratic primary when you have a democratic party base that's

so enraged still about what happened in 16 and we saw it play out in all the special election elections. tidal wave, tsunami. that rage is still there. democrats are angry t. . in the end if democrats are smart -- >> why do you laugh? >> democrats always snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory. i think democrats are so angry that in the end no matter who the democratic nominee is, the job is to evict donald trump out of the white house. >> you cannot be friends with a bully. you can't meet a bigot in the middle. anyone who wants to walk the middle of the road and get the mysterious trump swing voters it doesn't happen. >> if they are with trump, they are with trump. they'll walk over broken glass

to re-elect him. be sure to tune in tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. eastern for the town hall. my colleague chris hayes is moderating. kirsten gillibrand. he'll ask her a lot of questions i'm sure. coming up, speaker nancy pelosi throws cold water on impeachment. stay with us. olwad ter on impeachment. stay with us rself in a world which is doing it's best to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪ it's the most wond[laughter] on earth. ♪

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they want to be impeach president bush, i did not believe in it then. it divides the country. unless there is some conclusive evidence that takes us there. >> impeachment will be divisive as nancy pelosi told the washington post. >> thank you for being here. >> you tweeted out that you agreed with speaker pelosi that this is not the time to start an impeachment but there should be

an investigation about donald trump. >> the question is whether the donald trump is worth it but it is whether the constitution is worth it or saving democracy is worth it? the answer is yes. we have to be smart and strategic about it. we can't just launch an impeachment inquiry when only 40% of the country is in favor of impeachment. even the power of abuseme of por is really strong, what we need is fact-gathering investigation. let the people of the united states see how corruptly this leader won his office and how corruptly he's trying to hold onto it. then the time may well come. it may be too close to the next election. we are in a tough spot >> indeed, a conservative writer wrote in "time" magazine of the

american people to your point of the election in 2020 would be a far better position to render judgment. he writes evidence of richard nixon that did not fully emerge in second term and voters have no opportunity to make the direct direction. what do you make of that? >> i think that's much too simple. elections happen every four year. sometimes some leaders much too da dangerous to lead in power. this may be such a case. the fact by 2020, the amount of damage that will have been done in our rule of law to constitutional norms is very great and we can't count on it being as voter out of office in 2020. he's efficiently kcorrupt and we'll have enough help from not too friendly foreign powers,

russ russia, saudi arabia and maybe turkey. we can't count on removing this guy by an election. he may fabricate by another so-called national emergency to influence that election. what we have to do is persist t persistently gather the facts and if the american people can see what some of us already think is there soon enough then the time will come for impeachment proceedings. >> you go. >> i was going to say that impeachment is in the constitution for a purpose. they knew there would be an election every four year, they knew we can have dangerous demagogue that we could not put in office for four years. >> i am glad you made that

point. i think what concerns a lot of people about speaker pelosi's statement that donald trump is not worth it. she took impeachment off the table in 2006 when it came to the misleading information that was put out to the american people to convince people to support the invasion of iraq. there is some concerns i would say on the democratic side that as a political manner, the speaker sees this as bad politics for the party rather than and she has been capably asserting the constitutional powers of congress and the constitutional itself is what's most important. >> well, i hope she did not really mean to take it off the table completely. it is clear in terms of nancy pelosi's history that she recognizes that the party that pushes impeachment make her e itself in the end. we have a deep commitment to our constitutional democracy that has to be our guidelines.

it is possible that all she meant to do is give cover to the committees that are investigating so it is not so easy for the republicans to say every time a new subpoena is issued or a new witness is called that the democrats are held impeachment. they need to be given the opportunity to investigate in a public way, unlike what robert mueller is doing nearly everything is found is under cover. >> professor lawrence, always a treat. >> thank you very much. >> thank you, you too, joy. >> thank you, more "am joy" after the break.

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amazon? >> too big. >> google? >> too big. >> mark zuckerberg? >> too powerful. that's really the point of the too bigs. it is they got too much power and they got to use that power now to dominate markets and change consumer experience. >> welcome back to "am joy." senator warren proposed big ideas for preparing the american economy including a new proposal to break up the big tech companies including amazon, google and facebook of her

antitrust down. the shooting in new zealand weaponized and using social media. as the washington post media columnist sullivan noted, they depended on the tech giant and not protecting safety or decency. >> joining me e.j. dion. and taylor lawrence of the atlanta. i want to come to you first on this viral video aspect of this terror attack. that's one of the many things

that made it different. in the first 24 hours, reportedly, facebook removed 1.5 million videos globally of which 1.2 millions were blocked and uploaded. >> facebook are having hard to keep up with the viralis murder theater. what role did social media played in allowing people to be radicalized or allowing people to share their violence. >> if you take back the golden age of terrorism, these folks had to rely on newspaper and tv to get their message out. now, it is effective and it is plain directly to their conti e constituen

constituency. people that have been kicked out of every corner of the internet because they are so terrible and they have racist aviews. within a few minutes they uploaded all over the internet on various different services that really don't care about morals or ethics or about whether or not people are upset of things being uploaded to there. while facebook was used as a mechanism in this case, it is not why this went viral. it went viral because there are other services out there that catered these kinds of people and allowed this stuff to propagate. >> this is what they are ma marketing themselves at. he made a comment on facebook that attacks like the one in christ church happening because of the establishment.

referri you have people who are using the medium to further radicalize other people. >> exactly. >> when you saw this happening, they were banning people from speaking up. instead allowing those who have free speech who happen to be right men mostly become radicalize. milo is those who targeted those who are marginalized. that culture and those individuals who have been given freedom to be this way are now feeling like we are being oppressed now. >> george washington university reported in 2016 comparing nazi verses isis ideology on twitter. it found that white nationalists and nazis have accounts than isis supporters and tweeted more often.

it is attributedable in part of isis networks. >> that's exactly the type of problem that we have. the freedom of speech for white man who happens to be white nationalist are protected and these platforms basically put censorship against safety and these instance and they get to run them up basically unchecked. >> quickly before i bring in my journalist, robert rice, noticed 90% of internet searches go through google and facebook and they account together 58% of digital ads. amazon is the first step for third of all american consumer. in antiterrorism work is now the social media world of a primary place where you have to hunt for these kinds of terrorist actors. >> definitely. >> they are not using twitter anymore or facebook. what we are seeing is instead,

we are seeing clones pop up. it is exactly like twitter, it caters to white supremacists and right wing extremists. the reason is they have been deep platformed in other places. facebook and twitter, they're never going to be 100%. they are making significant steps forward. in 2015 when twitter was basically free open space for isis, they don't use it anymore. they move over to telegram. telegram is an encrypted space where anyone can do whatever they want, they can upload beheadings and others and no one can stop them or intervene. as long as there are these safe sf spaces out there, these folks are going to move over from twitter and facebook to youtube, they're going to move to a space where they'll speak to their constituencies and it will still go viral. >> the ideology is not going

away. >> ellie hall has a great thread that people should look at. the th we need to begin to see it clearly that this is not a form of politics nearly as much of a form of violence. these terrorists. i am sorry to think that maybe we should stop use the term right wing extremists. these are white nationalist terrorists. i am a very as you are, a strong supporter of the first amendment. >> absolutely. >> there is no right to anonymity. there is no right to get into the algorithm of these big tech companies and these extremists are good at using and finding ways to push their messages out

of the bigger platforms. people running the big platforms have to realize they are p publishers and they are publishing these stuff and they have to take responsibility. >> they are publisher of content and carrier of content. they're like the cable company and the content company. >> yeah, that's a big problem. i know evan was mentioning earlier this move into smaller and private spaces, i think it is a problem. it is true that facebook has done a lot more in moderation but we saw the huge issues of radicalization. i think before they even roll out the certain new features and products in the platform, they need to consider how people can abuse them and that does not seem anything that any of these tech companies are doing. youtube had a bunch of problems recently, too in terms of

accusatio accusations. >> amplications of these are not all humans. >> no, it is not. we have not dealt with the overall systematic problem of these platforms. the more users there are, there are more challenges. in the beginning, most of these platforms are deplatforming real people, real black and brown people who are speaking up with things and using the platform to elevate their voices as well. now we have the flip side of that where quote on quote, smaller group of ethno nationalists are taking over that space because they're given more privilege than anyone else. the problem is, taylor, the way the business model works is volume. >> yes, if volume of people are humans or robots, it does not matter. >> i just want to say all of

these platforms arengagements a. instagram is another platform that's earnings and engagement over everything else that i think is the problem. >> and evan, how challenging is that for people who are of the law enforcement side trying to do to these right wing terrorist groups of what they were able to do with isis? how challenging is this? >> these folks are using individual platforms that are closed off to law enforcement. in terms of intercepting their content of mainstream platform, there is been a number of different solutions highlighted. these systems are imperfect. they're never going to find someone before the feedback -- facts. as long as major social media

companies are spending a lot of resources to come to grips to this problem, i don't think they got a solution that's perfect. they do recognize this problem and spending an enormous amount of resources and time to deal with it. there is not any immediate perfect solution. i think we are going to have to think about that and think about ways we can go after the ideology as much as the technology. as long as the ideology is out there, these folks are going to find ways to get et out theit o. >> these business models are based on giving people what they like. it is okay if you like nice puppy video or a sports team. it is not okay to give people what they like is violent and terrorism and insightment to violent and terrorism. that's why they got to say there is deep flaws in this model that

has to be changed. >> i totally agree. a lot of time you start with in kno innocuous comment. so people are not always seeking the content out. the point is they are being fed. >> some of these are our warfare. some of this as finding a way into your feed and feeding you whatever the entity whether it is foreign or domestic wants. >> exactly. >> the part about this is when these tech companies were thinking about this amplication, they were not thinking of manufacture. it was a problem before. it was not a smaller problem or a problem they did not think they would have to worry about. now they're going this can be

gained. the challenge is, everything that's being gained right now is literally the way these platforms are built. this is nothing different than the way they were built, it is used as directive. >> exactly. >> i wonder if that puts this platform at risk in terms of what elizabeth warren is saying. this is the legislation her administration would pass would require large tech platform to be designated as utilities and broken apart from any participants from that platform. she's talking about the size and the scale and of the reach. could this kind use of them can become inpotus -- >> we have been talking about the power of this platform. one of the great things that warren is doing is she's pointing out substantial ideas

busting these companies is a big deal. there is a lot of people saying well, i am a little more moderate than that. i don't want to do that. they are taking advance positions of regulating them than they did say two weeks ago. i have to say hold the conversation. >> you can't say she's not running on specific issues. >> if you think about this. the u.k. have been very much more on top of this than us. we are just getting to thinking of regulating them. that's our key problem here. >> thank you very much. e.j. will be back. taylor lorens, thank you to the show. >> "am joy" focuses on ohio voters, that's next. - [woman] with my shark, i deep clean messes like this.

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black women given how important they are to the democratic party had been forgotten and ignored and taken for granted. >> the way the system are set up, we get these candidates, we work and we get them elected and they go into office. the people that are within the circle becomes employed by the candidate and they forget to engage the people that elected them. >> yeah. >> black women are the electoral bedrock of the democratic party. are their votes being taken for

granted or their voices being heard. >> tremaine is joining me now. we don't have a ton of time. i want to go right to it. a first byte of your interview with these women. this is about donald trump. >> the administration has unleashed and has legitimatize cruelty and racism -- all the isms. you go to school and you do the right thing, you raise your children properly and, you know, you are going into a parking lot, into a parking space and someone decides they're going to call you the enemy. it is like they can just with a couple of words strip away all that you have worked for. >> and embolden from the top.

>> was there a candidate when they're talking to you could reverse that. >> when you mention the name stacey abrams, they were all excited. they were super excited about her. more than half the group liked joe biden. they need someone with experience to fight back against donald trump. they believe that if there is a unifier, it is joe biden, not necessarily kamala harris or cory booker but biden. >> let's play a little bit of them talking about biden. >> he'si think if while progress seem to be the way the party is going and progressive may prevail in the primaries that i think in order to win back the presidency, we are going to need someone who's

someone. i am not sure this country is ready and a woman, i think it may be too much. >> that's surprising, women don't think the country is ready for a person of color to be president is a woman? >> wha lot of time these kinds proxy for white working class and middle class. these black working voters from that part of the state are a little more center left than clear left. so even though it sounds a bit pessimistic, they're pragmatic. and especially when you talk to the younger voters, there was one young woman who says i am tired of dealing the devil that you know. let's get rid of the devil, period. >> the older voters have been

around the block for a while, they want to win and want to be prag pragmatic. >> you mentioned kamala harris? >> what does her relationship has to do with her blackness. just because she's marrying to a white does not make her any black. i am concerned of her policies of keeping that energy in prison and how she operated previously. is she going to keep that same energy when she gets into the white house? are we going to have a situation where we are thinking black woman, perfect and we are sitting here like -- >> it is amazing how quickly these sort of meme level of whatever this sort of meme of each of these candidates sink in. >> especially when you think of

how big of a deal in terms of criminal justice is. it comes down to criminal justice and so many of their sons and brothers and nephews walk out the house each day, they want to make sure they are coming home again. legitimacy and especially when it comes to efforts saving your young black men and women from the justice system is serious but they're still searching for authenticity. they work so hard and they get into office and they feel forgotten or abandoned or negle neglected. it is time to get out to vote and now you are banging on the doors of black women to get out there and pushing for r tthe vo. >> let's play this, take a listen, what's important for these voters? >> social security and healthcare.

>> preservation of the democratic system, it would be the voters' suppression, avoiding and eliminating any foreign influence for our election. >> prison reform is a big thing for me. >> for me is public health and collective impact. >> what's amazing is when ever you talk to black woman voter, they sound the most like the dem e dem -- democratic party. it is easy to see why these voters cohort is so important to the democrats. they sound exact lie like tly l democrats. >> if you are going to listen to anyone, you might as well listen to black women. kind of as a wrap up and take away, on one hand, donald trump and of all the fire in every corner are a smoke stream to

real issues. first and for most, they need someone that'll fight and push back. they believe from everything they have seen that the system is corrupt. some of that messaging is trickling down at the top and they don't have much faith in the system and they are practical and basic values of the democratic party. >> you sort of see why bernie sanders and some of the other candidates that did not resonate with this same group of voters. >> let's play one more. ohio is obviously pretty much a red state at this point. it is seen as something like a swing state in a way. let's play why these women think it is red. >> due to a lot of gerrymandering that has occurred in ohio, it has turned into a red state. >> we have some true efforts of voter suppression.

both efforts are either contenti contenti intentionally directed to or by accident of black and brown voters that are more likely to vote democrat. >> these women seem to get it that voter suppression is not just a southern thing. >> when you think of what happens in the stacey abrams' race and the clouds that are there and eric holder who we have not heard from recently focusing on gerrymandering of this idea that the system is rigged where politicians are choosing their voters in the district. it cuts around the black voters. these women of voters are paying attention so it is one of the top issues for them. again, waiting for an eric holder type come out and address those concerns.

tremaine lee, looking forward to have you do more of this talking cie it. >> thank you. >> coming up, we take a spin through the sunday's shows. -guys, i want you to meet someone. this is jamie. you're going to be seeing a lot more of him now. -i'm not calling him "dad." -oh, n-no. -look, [sighs] i get it. some new guy comes in helping your mom bundle and save with progressive, but hey, we're all in this together. right, champ? -i'm getting more nuggets. -how about some carrots? you don't want to ruin your dinner. -you're not my dad! -that's fair. overstepped.

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donald trump went after his least favorite show on twitter last night, no, not "am joy." "saturday night live." snl aired a rerun last night. mick mulvaney is tired of explaining donald trump is not a white supremacist. only fidelity offers four zero expense ratio index funds directly to investors. and now we have zero account fees for brokerage accounts. at fidelity, those zeros really add up. ♪ so maybe i'll win, saved by zero ♪

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donald trump said this during the campaign, look at what we have done while we have been here. i don't think anybody can say that the president is antimuslim. >> you see the president stand up for people. the president is not antisupremacist, i am not sure how many times i have to say that. >> do you see white nationalists a rising threat around the world. >> i think it is a small group of people that have a lot of problem. if you look at new zealand and i don't know enough about it yet. >> back with me, e.j. dionne. >> let's play cut five and see if we can fair it out.

>> we have to look at the muslims and we have to do something. we can't standby and be the stupid people while our country is destroyed. >> i think islam hates us. there is something there that that's a tremendous hatred there. we have to get to the bottom of it. there is an unbelievable hatred of us. >> i don't know why people would think that donald trump -- is antimuslim. >> i was watching mulvaney thinking of him saying i am richard nixon and i am not a crook. >> you can't be anymore direct than that. >> let's play a little bit of mulvaney on friend fox news

deflecting questions whether or not donald trump should react by the speech? >> why not make a speech and make it clear that there is no place in america for this kind of hatred. >> you saw that yesterday in the tweet. you may want to give him a national speech to address the nation, that's fine. maybe we do that or maybe we don't. i think you get down to the basic issue that the president is doing everything we can to prevent this type of thing from happening here. >> let's see what people want him to do. he sent a tweet, his tweet says warm and sympathy and best wishes and he used the word new zealand. a he tweeted, governance by tweet. >> i so long for the days -- i wish to god this has never happened. we would be remissed if we did not stay. if this were on barack obama's

watch, he would be the consoler in chief and give a speech that would be listened to and watched by worldwide audiences and he would denounce hatred in any form and we would not find white supremacists saying this is our man. >> that's part of the point. if this were president obama and he were to give this speech which he tried to do when he went to dcairo or doing what george w. bush did. he would have been savaged by the right and that's what would have happened. >> i go back to george bush, this was six days after 9/11 and he goes to am mosque and says people who hate muslims or stoke violence are not us. they are despicable human beings. little did he know he's talking about his successor down the

road. he actually said on air, if you are wearing the muslim head stres dress, you are against the constitution. the reason we think he's a white nationalist because he uses the same language about replacement. he calls about invaders. he tells americans that they are being over run by brown people or black people. that's why we think he is because he is. >> let's play and just so we make sure that folks believe what jennifer says was hyperbole. this was when it was interpreted as a way of campaign. this was literally this past week on friday. >> we are on track for a million illegal aliens to rush our border. it is an invasion of drugs and criminals and people, we have no idea who they are. we capture them because border security is so good.

in many cases, they are stone cold criminals. in my cases and in some case, you have killers coming in and murders coming in. our immigration system is stretched to be on the breaking point. >> the language of invasion are being used by far right nand people of new zealand talking about the immigration and muslims and including asylum seeker. he adapt that is message and talking about brown people coming from central america. >> he could not for one day change his language because invasion is a term used in that m manifes manifesto. he could not pull back, no, he had to repeat it. i think that's why everyone in the world suspects that he is not in any way ready to stand up

to lislam. >> the notion that mulvaney says why did people ask him to do it again because he gave a talk like that yesterday. i disagree george w. bush a million things but that speech he gave at the mosque is an extraordinary moment and since then you had just this steady right wood drift on this issue and you saw it with the so-called mosque at ground zero if you remember that and this is just taken over a large part of the right and that's really bad for our country. >> and the entire network was the same thing. >> fox propagates this stuff. they hire the caravan and come up with every story involving every crime that supposedly in any way connected to immigrants. so you have this echo chamber

that the president orchestrates whether it is top radio or fox or the blogs. this is what these right wing people absorbed. it does not surprise me if you are unbalanced or very unbalanced, you hear this stuff and you act on it. that's what we saw at charlottesville when people adopt, they'll not replace us. the jews will not replace us. that's what you will see in charleston and that's what you see in pittsburgh. that's what you see, there is a commonality and the challenge though. >> michelle, which is more popular among the base that donald trump is working in, the george w. bush model that is la islam is a religion of peace. while he was great for a while, it was not like this. this is popular with a plurality of people. >> that's what i was going to say. it is amazing the difference between, it looks like two

completely different republican parties. during the bush's administration, as we said bush gave that extraordinary speech but it was backed up by policies. what are we going to see in terms of policy fies from this administration. the bush's administration worked really hard with reformers all over the country and see all over the world and say how do we fix this? how do we fix this within? they did not try to stir up further or antimuslim sentiment. >> the question becomes who is far from intervening in the muslim commune, who's going to intervene among people who are open to white nationalism. if they are being radicalized, who can talk them back? >> nobody. >> the administration, who wants to? >> one thing we can celebrate is

in our civil society, there are people standing up and saying that islam phobia is terrible. there is a synagogue from the post which says muslims stood with us when we were under attack and we need to stand with them. we need a lot more people in the country saying that this president can say whatever the heck he wants but that's not us. >> let me on the way out, i want to thank e.j. and michelle, i love you guys. let's give her the last word. >> he needs to pick up the phone and call the department of justice of the rise of supremacists right here in the united states of america. he needs to look at the data information and the facts and actually listen and understand the tremendous responsibility he has and being our leader of the

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i am going to jump into it. >> the person who won the week, i don't care what y'all say is buda judge. >> he may win because he has the coolest name. >> he won the week primarily because of his response to the slaughter in new zealand. a statement that was so breathtaking in its humanity and how presidential it was. that tells us how starve we are for more leadership. the mayor of a small town in indiana can ring those bells that used to be there. >> it was spectacular. it was leadership and you felt it was new. it was really good. >> we welt food

>> he did an excellent job. >> all right. >> let's go over the data. don'tdana. >> i would also judge budajudge. but i picked another judge, amy berman jackson. she is judge to both roger stone and paul manafort. she sentenced paul manafort this week, partially getting over that travesty from earlier in the week. it was less the sentencing than how strongly she was with him. and she said in the courtroom, court is one of those places where facts still matter. >> yeah. >> and i think that was a strong voice speaking up against all of this insanity. >> i appreciated what she said, but i kind of felt she was like the mom that scolds you and still takes you for ice cream. am i being harsh here? >> it was about what was expected going in.

and she had -- ellis has this huge sentencing. this after basically hectoring the prosecution. and she was, you know, she was very much by the book, weighing this, weighing that, so, yeah, she could have been stronger. she could have been weaker. he's going to be in prison for seven years. >> and then the state will swoop in because new york state has something for him. >> exactly. >> she's waiting. >> tiffany cross, can you beat these other two judges? >> obviously. >> nope. >> stacy abrams. look, there is a lot of talk about her this week. and she clarified that 2020 is absolutely on the table. she could have been the first black woman governor, not just of georgia but in the country. she built up huge assets in georgia, even outside the state.

she built up a lot of data, cell phones, volunteers. she raised more money than any other republican in georgia. i don't know if she's going to mount a 2020 campaign, but she was letting it be known i'm up for 2020. we'll see if she mounts a campaign, but i think it may have been the bottom of ticket, which gives someone a good candidate with not a lot of controversy surrounding her. she founded fair fight elections, fighting against voter suppression, so i think she'd do a great job at tv efforts. i think she's an amazing person since she was told, you don't look right. your hair is not right. you deny the role. we are redefining what electability means. she did a great job. >> a couple things on there. >> he almost stepped on my who on the week. >> i was watching that. >> he pulled back.

he did get that answer from them, that he was saying that the person that sparked the most enthusiasm was stacy abrams. i wonder if you guys think that stacy abrams gets short shift in terms of somebody that got close and lost. >> why weren't we talking about stacy abrams immediately after election day in the way that everyone was talking about beto o'rourke. if i'm not mistaken, tiffany, didn't she raise more money than he did? >> she did. >> why aren't we talking about her? it is probably because of the very reasons that people told her she shouldn't run for governor in the first place. >> if she runs, who does she hurt? who does she draw from? >> i don't know that she's going to run. but i hate to do this because i hate when people -- you can only have one woman of color, but i think she would hurt pomela harris the most. i think if some people saw stacy

abrams as an alternative, they would feel good because black women are the backbone of the democratic community. but it is a large party. there is room for everybody. this does not take away from kamala harris. >> you have to keep in mind, you suggested people are running also for vice president, for cabinet or just to increase your stature so people recognize your name. >> and then there is a possibility. we know there is this huge dscc really trying to get stacy abrams to run. they would like beto o'rourke to run. every time they seem to want someone, that person runs for president. >> right. >> there is something about that. >> we're seeing the run and she stacy abrams met with joe biden this week. >> let's keep something in mind, though. just because they jumped in and

ran for president doesn't mean they can't then drop out. >> they can always drop out. >> this is a good way to get your name out there and your stature up. >> and then you can swoop him and say, i'm running for senate. >> these are all excellent answers. i was going to make an exception and let y'all win sometimes. >> we want to make it up, change it up a little bit, but not today. today we will do the traditional one week. i think this kid won the week because there is a 17-year-old boy in australia who stood behind a state senate who was blaming the slaughter in new zealand in those mosques on muslims and saying allowing muslims into the country is the reason why, and called them fanatics and said that just having them into the country was the problem. he was standing up and giving a talk about his beliefs there. and this young man was standing

behind him with his camera, egged him. now, we can debate the propriety of egging an elected official. but the guy turned around and cold cocked him. the boy will not face charges because he was arrested. but the presence of mind to keep the phone up while he was being assaulted and beaten up by a grown man, this guy has the presence of the week. thank you very much. more a.m. joy after the break. a. i was cured and left those doubts behind. i faced reminders of my hep c every day. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured. even hanging with friends i worried about my hep c. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured. mavyret is the only 8-week cure for all common types of hep c. before starting mavyret your doctor will test if you've had hepatitis b which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b, a liver or kidney transplant,

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that's our show for today. thanks for watching. morgan radford has the latest. >> good morning and good day to all of you from msnbc headquarters. it is high noon in the west. welcome to weekends with alex witt. alex is off today and i'm morgan radford. president trump said the calls of white nationalism is becoming a threat around the world. >> i disagree there is a causele link between donald trump being president and something like this happening in new zealand. donald trump is no more to blame than mark zuckerberg is because he invented facebook. and the democratic field just got bigger. another voice makes it official for the run for president, but will this change the conversation?