7. rhab. i'm ari melber reporting with our live special coverage in washington. on the mueller report, this is a defining moment for the presidency, for the president and for the resistance. bob mueller did not find probable collusion. despite claims from attorney general barr, muler did not claim exemption of justice either. hey want attorney general barr to explain himself under oath. let's get right to it. former federal prosecutor paul butler, eleanor clift is here,

and former federal prosecutor gene rossi. we've been doing a lot of law here on our special coverage. in a few moments, i'm going give my breakdown on all the crimes mueller busted and what he finds. eleanor, i turn to you on what washington thinks. who what do they think of this conclusion? what do they think of barr with a big swing with a big muscle move with the person with the biggest muscle associated with the doj bob mueller. >> the focus of the media has spent the last 22 months lauding robert mueller, the integrity of his investigation, spending a lot of time on every little jot and tiddle of everything having to do with russia. and i think the results of this have really made a lot of democrats question whether they put their faith in the wrong horse. and they're not -- nobody is

going to bail on robert mueller. i think that's not appropriate. right now i think they're looking at barr, at the attorney general, and wondering just how, you know, rigged this whole thing might have been going in. >> did he work it this weekend? >> well, all those hours spent poring over those many pages. if he hadn't come out with some sort of a letter or some sort of conclusion, we'd all be jumping up and down saying what is he sitting on. >> he said i hope to update by the end of next week. i'm going take a very vigorous approach. >> he said i'm going to give some top line conclusions. and basically those top line conclusions are very favor to believe the white house. >> you were on the mclaughlin report. >> yeah. >> and i don't claim it to be anywhere near that level. what would your mclaughlin panelists say, because i've heard some criticism of barr for

his potential approach, whether he was trying to put the fix in. i'm curious, because you were such an pert in. this what about his skill here? we've seen other cabinet members of the trump administration fall on its face. >> he is so avuncular. he has that long record behind him. and he was very careful when he testified. he really dodged all the serious questions. he's operating within the lines. he hasn't done anything that is so preposterous that you -- that he makes himself a target. but i think he probably understands now that he's going to have to defend his decisions. i think there is going to be a lot of court fights going forward, and i think the democrats are -- understand that there is no easy way to get this president out of office legally. i think he's going to have to be removed the old-fashioned way which is by the ballot box. to me this basically says okay, this guy could get re-elected. he is going to spin this like he's exonerated, report from

mueller says clearly this is not exoneration. >> but your view, eleanor clift, is that donald trump is more likely to be on a path to reelection at the on the other hand this weekend as opposed to this beginning? >> he is in better shape, yes. legally, he faces a whole world of woes afterwards. but real rest election -- >> we got lawyers all over the place. eleanor, you're saying something people might not want to hear. >> reelection $25 million, and they didn't find anything. that's what he's going to say. and he's -- i think a lot of people are going to believe that. and i think the democrats need to continue to investigate. but i think they have to be careful. they also have to go about the business of passing legislation for the people, and not get totally caught up in the russia collusion, which apparently didn't happen. >> let's lawyer out for a second. let's talk law. the single most important word

in your entry today, ari, was chargeable. no chargeable collusion, nothing that could meet the reasonable doubt standard, at least as mueller and i guess with the blessing of barr could find that does not mean there was not misconduct. that does not mean there was not collusion. that does not mean there were not attempts to obstruct the due administration of justice. and the assessment here that we all need to make is what ought a president of the united states have been behaving this way? should a presidential campaign have been behaving in this manner? go back to 2016 you. have you the trump tower meeting. we can relitigate the facts here, but these are attempts to -- you're smirking. >> i don't smirk. >> he smiles. >> but i do think again the mere fact that the president could not be charged i don't think is the end of the conversation here, particularly given that congress is now the arbiter, it ought to be the arbiter. >> look, no one is trying to remove the american electorate or the citizenry from the

process. but i'm looking at you because i know you worked in the obama justice department, correct? >> i did. proudly. >> proudly. so you know that this kind of criminal probe is to deal with crimes. >> right. >> and it found a lot of crimes. and in my special report, as promised, i'm going to go through those. those though should not be forgotten. donald trump had more criminals advising him than any president at this point in their presidency in american history. we only know that because he fired james comey in such a stupid and brazen way that he triggered the appointment of a special counsel. that's all important. but it's important because it was the product of a criminal probe. likewise, is it not incumbent on people like you, sir, given that people look up to you and you were obama doj. >> i don't know that anybody looks up to me. >> how about this. i look up to you because you served your country as jean did, as paul did. i love that i get to talk to you. i love it. but i do look up to you. what i mean is i'm not being pithy about that. isn't it incumbent on people like you to say yes, on the

collusion side, the fact that mueller didn't find a crime is itself significant. >> it is itself significant. but again, the president of the united states is not an ordinary target. when there is an entire body which is the congress of the united states that can't investigate -- and not even investigate, oversee, the oversight process is a very critical separation of powerses function of our government. so why they need access to all of the findings that mueller made in making their -- in the due exercise of their duties, i don't want to say that it's insignificant that the president wasn't charged. of course. and frankly -- >> you don't want to not say it isn't insignificant? >> it's a lot of significants. >> that's a triple axel negativity. >> it's a good thing the president did not appear. >> gene? >> i look up to you. >> we're buddies. >> a bromance here. >> there is a bromance. >> here's what i want to say right now. as a threshold matter, bill barr

made a huge mistake, and here's how. he should have recused himself from pulling an all hague. on march 30th, 1981, al hague held a press conference. >> i'm in charge here. >> i'm in control, i'm in charge. bill barr pulled an al hague by saying in his letter, and i think it's pitiful, because mueller could not make a decision on the jump ball if you will on obstruction, at equipoise, he made himself al hague, i'm going to decide. he should have recused himself, and here's why. in june of 1989, when i was hired by the justice department and bill barr was either deputy attorney general, head of the olc, my supervisor told me that a justice department prosecutor, you may have heard this, has to be purer than caesar's wife. he is not purer than caesar's wife. why? >> let me see. we're going to show people.

>> it's like john flannery. where is he? >> we got this. here we go. so your notes. >> gene rossi's notes. >> i see in caps, wrong. what upsets you most that you think is not wrong in your judgment, but is improper for an ag? >> what is wrong and why this letter needs some sanitizer is -- and it really does -- he should not have made the decision on obstruction because in june of 2018, he already said i'm not going to decide obstruction. number two, in those 48 hours -- >> slow down. you're saying this attorney general. >> yes. >> took a position on this matter. >> yes. >> before he was put into power? >> yes. and that should have been grounds for recusarecusal. and that's why this letter means nothing to me. >> except he didn't just take a position. so i looked a the memo, the unsolicited memo that william barr when he was auditions for the job of ag, which the president trump gave him, he said that mueller's obstruction of justice investigation was

grossly irresponsible, fatally misconceived and potentially disastrous. this is the man who today made the decision that there were not enough evidence about obstruction of justice to bring charges against the president. so what we have here, we're living through history. this is the most consequential investigation of a president in american history, and all we have right now is some skeletal information. some of it is ominous. what is it that mueller learned which made him unable to exonerate the president on the issue of obstruction? the american people must know that. >> well, he basically said it was a close call. and so he punted. and i think that is a shock. i think it's rare that a prosecutor leaves that decision up to someone else. but as i recall, the senate democrats grilled barr and asked him if he would recuse himself, pressed himself. >> sure. >> and he said no. what's to make him? he has to do that himself.

there is no mechanism to force him. >> has barr done something that almost no one else what n the trump orbit could do? i don't know that whitaker could have pulled this off on the difficulty level. i don't know that sessions worked washington this way, because barr could have been the heavy, the closer, dennis erickson, for you oakland a's fans. >> cleveland indians. >> sure. i mean, we're doing multiple teams. >> yes, yes, yes. >> and close this in a way that no one else could have, because some of the trump folks today seemed almost surprised by how strong the letter was, almost as if they felt like the underlying material was worse for them, and they got a letter that surprised them. >> he's put his reputation on the line. and i think even with matthew whitaker, people thought that he would stop if it came to throwing his own body across the tracks. >> sure. >> and i think that's what barr has done. and people who worked with him,

democrats too say he is -- he's a responsible intellectual man who cares about the justice department. i kind of trusted him. >> one at a time. >> i respect him, but, again, what he did today, over a weekend. >> yes. >> he put people, rod rosenstein and they made a decision, a legal decision that mueller said was hard and complicated. they made it in 48 hours where they have hundreds of lawyers at the department of justice. >> ellie has the final point. this is a letter that talks a lot of what mueller found but barely quotes him, name checks rod rosenstein who we know had active oversight of the probe. but it's only signed by one person. it's signed by bill barr. elliott, before i go, i promised i have a breakdown i want to do. but final thought from you? >> he did not have to make the determination on obstruction.

>> that's right. >> mueller was silent on it. the finding of the special counsel is they did not have the evidence to sustain an obstruction charge and wash the hands and submit the letter. >> that would have handed it off to congress, which clearly he didn't want to do. >> which -- >> that's where the politics comes in. >> that's the reason why all this needs to be made public. we need to see what the findings were and what the evidentiary basis was and what the witnesses said and everything, subject to all the grand jury disclosures and so on. the people need to see what's in this. there is a huge public appetite. >> for the appearance of justice. >> i'm going to turn to the breakdown that i promise viewers as part of our special coverage. i think it was john mclaughlin who once said you could have been anywhere in the world tonight, but you're here with us, and i appreciate that. >> exactly. >> what's that, john mclaughlin? it was big false. >> if not, i'm sure he wishes he said it. >> i thought it was aaron burr, the black rapping aaron burr.

>> well, there are so many aaron burrs. i also believe he was with the cleveland indians at one point. >> maybe the red sox. >> possibly. >> paul, you want to add any bonhomie? everyone else got a shot. >> i think what you said, did barr work it? i think barr flipped it and reversed it. >> i was to be say that. this isn't "the beat." can i go there? and i just thank you, paul butler. >> well, i'll tell you something since i'm a paul butler fan, not just a sfan fan of the other three. you wrote a book a long time ago called the hip-hop theory of justice. i'm going play some very important sound. i want to thank paul, eleanor, jean and elliott for being a part of our special coverage. my special report is coming, as i told you, with my breakdown on what matters. i want to show you before i do that right now how all of this news broke live today. >> we're coming on the air right now because today after a more

than two-year investigation we finally will get a sense of what is in special counsel's robert mueller's report. >> the special counsel therefore did not draw a conclusion one way or the other as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction. while the report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him. >> we are in some instances sharing in realtime what this letter says. it sounds as though everybody is seeing it at the same time, members of congress, members of the media. >> a lot of people are seeing this all for the same time. and that's why, as promised, now i turn tonight to my special report for you on what this mueller probe in total found, what it accomplished, what it means, and what may be left to be done. let's start with something that most people don't realize by now. bob mueller captivated really a lot of the country with the way he conducted this probe in a culture full of shouting and self-promotion and polarization, in a political era defined by trolling and retweeting and bad faith arguments, bob mueller is

an old school prosecutor who never held a press conference, never dropped a tweet, and never leaked as best we know. this was more than something about style. this was government probablyism. this is prosecutorial rigor. this was an approach to public service that operated, yes, as an understated rebuke to donald trump's entire political existence. mueller was not assigned to ever get trump. he was assigned to investigate russian interference, any links to associates or any crimes arising out of the probe. the russian interference, the trump links and those other crimes. now mueller has just finished his probe late friday. his ending also marks the end of indictments on those three topics. so what's different tonight is we can draw some conclusions about what mueller found. he found election interference indicting 12 russians and

exposing their tactics, and he found a lot of other crime throughout these 22 months. a whopping 37 indictments. he did not find chargeable collusion conspiracy, and he also found many actions by trump-related to the crime of obstruction which are noted in that new letter that barr wrote explaining why mueller did not exonerate trump on obstruction, an issue that is typically decide by congress. so if bob mueller released all of that, just that right there in one day at the end, if he issued 37 indictments simultaneously, one can imagine washington and much telephone country overwhelmed and melting down. by the efficacy, by the crimes, by what he found. and of course mueller was only appointed because president trump fired james comey and then cited the russia probe as part of his reasoning. think about that as we reflect on all this. if bob mueller had never been appointed, it's not even clear whether the trump administration, your government would ever have even publicly busted the russian election

interference act detailing their acts to the public, let alone indict them. and then going out and having a trump appointee, mueller's boss making it clear those indicted russians are now wanted fugitives around the world. >> the indictment charges 13 russian nationals and three russian companies for committing federal crimes while seeking to interfere in the united states political system. including the 2016 presidential election. >> but as for the election conspiracy probe, meaning did americans help those russians, let's be clear. i've heard some people debate this, even right her on our special tonight. but we do know mueller took this seriously. he made we learned tonight 13 requests for evidence from foreign governments. he unloaded 2800 subpoenas, demanding evidence about trump campaign officials and trump business activities, and he scoured all the areas for potential collusion or bribery

or recreation conspiracies. and mueller witnesses told us right here on msnbc about the questions on trump tower moscow, about the contacts with russians, about the campaign's apparent obsession with those stolen e-mails that would eventually come out from wikileaks. and then when trump associates lied about those issues like michael cohen, mueller busted them too. but when it came to this collusion issue itself, mueller did not find a chargeable conspiracy there are no such indictments, and no sealed indictments waiting on that one. that's an important result of this probe. we know mueller investigated it thoroughly. while we won't have all of the context until more of the report comes out, chairman nadler noted that tonight, we don't need to wait for every conclusion. we do know the mueller probe is over. and we do know mueller concluded there wasn't enough evidence to criminally charge americans for conspireing with the russians. we knew the outlines of that friday. tonight bill barr has plucked a sentence from the mueller

explanation for that, releasing it to the world. now, as we take stock of mueller's results, there are the other crimes. i want to show you that too. mueller busted a crime spree by trump advisers from michael cohen to trump's national security adviser to the campaign adviser who first heard about stolen e-mails, the longest serving political adviser donald trump has, roger stone still awaiting trial, manafort's deputy rick gates and campaign chair paul manafort. in fact, we looked into this. if the mueller probe has resulted in one thing that can't be wiped away, it's that donald trump now has the fastest, highest rate of indictments for his advisers than any president evidence. so while no chargeable collusion may be inconvenient for some, the crimes on your screen tonight, which are the product of this entire probe are certainly inconvenient for any trump allies trying to celebrate something tonight. donald trump has hired more crooks than most residents ever do in their full two terms. so why am i telling you all

this? these are the public facts coming out of the mueller probe. now some people would like some of these facts to be different for different reasons. some trump supporters wish the probe didn't uncover what you just saw on your screen. so many crooks working at the highest levels for donald trump. and it looks terrible that the two people who have actually worked for trump longer than literally nonfamily member, michael cohen and roger stone have, now been convicted and charged respectively. but i want to be clear with you tonight there are others who wish this probe would have uncovered more evidence for a chargeable election conspiracy, in order to get trump associates. now some people want those charges because they just think they're true. they expected that there would be a chargeable conspiracy after hearing so much about trump publicly asking for russia's help, and his aides going to meetings that no campaign aides would ever normally go to. other people, let's be real, may just hope for charges that challenge the legitimacy of this very controversial president.

that those motivations are not what guides our justice system. consider that it's the independent prosecutors that have the far greater grasp of all of the evidence, some of it secret, who looked at this for 22 months and determined there wasn't enough evidence to press those kind of charges on conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt. the rule of law requires we respect these outcomes. without regard for what people may have hope order even expected. and we all know the trump era has been full of calls for certain people to stand up to their side or their base and to stand up and defend principles or facts or the american way. if you watch the news, if you watch political discussion, i'm sure you've seen many of those conversations. often those calls are directed at congressional republicans, and for good reason. tonight some of those calls may apply to some congressional democrats who have every

understandable right on focusing on wanting to get the mueller report released. i understand why that's important, and democrats who want to assert their congressional rule, which is typically their, not bill barr's to determine any potential obstruction. we've reported on that too. and that there may be yet other areas for presidential accountability growing out of this probe and its leads. but just as so many keep all on congressional republicans to stand up on principle, this tonight and the nights and days ahead are a time for congressional democrats to stand up too and acknowledge bob mueller did not find a chargeable election conspiracy. that may be politically hard for some, and it may be easier to focus on the other topics or wait for the report. but the report, which should come out and which we will stay on, the report will not come out with surprise indictments for a later election conspiracy. that's not going to happen, according to what mueller has submitted. our system requires respecting the results of valid investigations, not just the results that may match one's

interests. and that position doesn't preclude other consequences from the mueller report or other measures based on the national security and public interest concerns that may be raised by evidence that fell short of the criminal standard. i want to be clear about that as well. but, again, let's be real. a very big part of this 22-month mueller investigation was a criminal probe, and the results of that criminal probe are in. bob mueller busted many crimes, from russians to trump advisers. he revealed problems that the justice system can punish and wider problems that may require broader reform. that's where you and the voters come in. but there is something else here that we might want to reflect on. bob mueller and his silent steely methodical way showed through his actions, not speeches or lectures or leaks, mueller showed through his actions and approach to fact finding to following evidence, not assumptions that is not just

a total contrast to trumpism, though it surely was that, but also a contrast to how too much of our politics and our culture operates today with people searching for evidence to just reinforce our beliefs rather than the harder search for evidence to inform our beliefs, and yes, sometimes to correct them. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't.

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yeah, i just think v-mo has a nicer ring to it. so, just say "vote for world of dance" into your xfinity v-mo to choose your xfinity fan favorite to join the world of dance experience on my "it's my party" summer tour. cast your vote by saying "vote for world of dance" into your xfinity x1 voice remote. or as j-lo likes to call it, your v-mo. president trump is wrong. this reporter does not amount to a so-called total exoneration. his conclusions raise more questions than they answer. it is unconscionable that president trump would try to spin the special counsel's finds. we will ask the attorney general to testify before the house judiciary committee. we will demand the release of the full report. congress must step in to get the truth. >> we're back with ongoing live special coverage of the mueller

report. mother jones' david corn is here. you've seen chairman nadler's message. where do we go from here? >> thing are two things. the criminal aspect of this is over. we presume it's over. maybe he kicked some things to the southern district that may get to the edges of the russian stuff. let's assume it's done from the criminal perspective. we still have never had a full accounting for the public of what happened with the russian attack and how trump interacted with the russians on the trump tower deal in moscow, still with the trump tower meeting itself, we don't know what happened afterwards, and all the other interactions. george papadopoulos according to mueller's indictment tried to set up back channel communication with putin's office through the summer of 2016 while russia was attacking the united states. the meeting between paul manafort and a ukraine nan businessman konstantin kilimnik when they talked about maybe a quid pro quo or trump supporting the lifting of sanctions, there is a lot we need to know to have

a full understanding. it may not be criminal, it may just be wrongdoing. getting the foundation of the report to see to what degree mueller looked at and what he said to barr about it would be essential. but the other thing is congress. it's congress' job not to prosecute, but to tell us what we need to know as a public to evaluate and make sure it doesn't happen again. >> did the democrats in congress other than nadler look a little surprised by how this went down this weekend? >> yeah. and i've been saying for the last year or two that focusing on mueller alone was a mistake. they needed to put pressure on congress, and it was hard when it was in the control of the republicans who just wanted to protect trump, not really look at these issues. but just not to let mueller do everything. because you know this. searching for crimes is different than san franciscoing for the truth. and now we have adam schiff and other democrats in charge of committees who have committed themselves to doing a real investigation.

now there happen to be like 20,000 different things for them to investigate regarding trump. but i do hope they're not dissuaded by this, and trump and others saying it's all over and go back to what congress should have done from the very start and give us an honest, decent investigation about what happened, whether crimes were committed or not. >> david corn, as always, we benefit from your expertise here. >> thank you. >> i turn as promised to a former federal prosecutor who is actually one of the few people who served as an independent counsel, robert ray. he was the last independent counsel before bob mueller when the laws were structured differently. succeeding ken starr, which did lead to a house impeachment and that senate acquittal. thanks for being part of our special coverage tonight. >> that's really me 20 years ago. >> that's right. we do that with all of our guests. >> thanks, i appreciate that. that was a nice thing for me on a sunday evening. >> there you go. preet bharara also had a bit of

that reaction. bottom line, what do you think this outcome means tonight? >> look, ari, i take your higher road message to heart, which i think is the right tone, and that was that i hope the public comes to respect the results of this investigation. we all as citizens of this country may have minor disagreements about one thing or another, and i'm not suggesting that congress doesn't have a continuing role to play here, but after 22 months, i think it was important today that what you saw as the department spoke as one voice, i agree with you that there is more to be seen, and the attorney general is committed at least to the maximum extent possible. and again, reasonable people can disagree about it, but more of the report will be forthcoming, i imagine. it's just a question of how much time that will take.

the old school message is a good one. >> let me ask you this as a prosecutor. can you speak to the right way to evaluate a probe? because there were people who criticized mueller for pursuing the crimes he did find. that seemed odd, because when you find the crimes that manafort and cohen and others were committing, you go after them or you farm them out. in the cohen case, he farmed. in the manafort case, he went to hiss be at the time rosenstein and said i want to make sure this is in my am bit, and they said yes. as you know, there were trump allies and right wing republicans who criticized that. i wonder if you can speak to that piece and what we're seeing this weekend now which is other folks saying wait a minute, maybe he didn't find collusion crimes and that is held out as something wrong with the probe when our prosecutors are supposed to have a pieias towards fax. >> sure. he starts with a mandate. his job is to press and press hard, which he did. that takes time.

it requires that he be thorough, which he clearly was. it is in the country's interest that that be done in such a way that the public can come to respect the integrity, the investigation. i think he proved that by remarkably having very little leaks that dumped out of the office during the dependency of the investigation. and i also think it was important that as investigation go, this was promptly done. >> very fast. very fast. on that point, i wonder, do you think donald trump has further shown what a mistake it was for him on both rule of law grounds and also basic strategy grounds to constantly malign mueller and the probe as a witch hunt? trump doesn't have as much credibility as one might to invoke these findings given that he spent the better part of his presidency wantonly and often falsely impugning mueller and his team. >> look, there is a human dynamic that shouldn't be

overlooked. as i've said on many occasions, i wouldn't wish a special counsel or independent counsel investigation on anyone. now because it's a very difficult position to be in. i think obviously the president well recognizes by this point that the firing of the fbi director had the unintended consequence of putting him in the middle of a 22-month investigation. >> was he wrong to malign mueller? well, i think it's -- no it's still appropriate for a president or anybody to push back because there is obviously -- it's in a political environment. >> did you always welcome it when you were running your probe? if somebody told law enforcement folks that they were basically doing something illegal and people shouldn't cooperate with you, and people shouldn't, you know, do that or they're rats. you think that's good? >> my job was to defend the integrity of the investigation, whenever i saw a need to do. so. >> i'm curious whether you think that's good or not. >> and i'll leave others to decide what ultimately is in the public's interest.

no one ever said this was going to be easy. and what i think the takeaway from this weekend, beginning on friday is that it was in the country's interest to have this investigation. >> sure. >> it was painful. we now have the result, at least in part of that investigation. >> i have to know, robert, that while you opened by complimenting me for what you call the high mindedness towards the rule of law, you're not exactly meeting us halfway here. you're actually seeping -- i don't want to let you off air before i give you a chance, but you're seeming as a former independent counsel to say it's okay to call people rats. that's kind of mafia stuff. you don't want to fix that before i let you go? >> that's going down something other than the high road, okay. i think let's keep this on the appropriate plane, which is there ought to be -- >> that's what i want to make sure. you're defending the president call it a witch hunt. you? >> i didn't start this conversation. i sat here patiently listening to the last of your three principle guests accuse the attorney general, including from

senator blumenthal of being -- that the attorney general was clever, adroit and devious. eleanor clift referred to attorney general barr suggesting that the conclusion of the investigation was rigged, and your first guest, flannery, accused the attorney general's conduct of being that of venal, suspicious, and an operator. so, look, none of that is helpful, okay? that's not helpful either. >> you know, my viewers are too smart for the game you're playing. >> there is no game here. i listened to your three prior guests all think that this was comical. it's not comical at all. this is very serious stuff. >> it's serious to me too. >> sure. >> you have the losing end of the argument. i hate to do this to you on national television, but you know you just missed two opportunities to address the president calling people rats for cooperating with law enforcement like yourself. you can own that. flannery -- >> that's not why you're doing what you're doing.

all you're trying do is perpetuate a story. >> now you're attacking other guests. i'm happy to have -- not prepared to accept the findings of this investigation. >> what i'm going to do is turn to other guests. i did give you your time. i will say this. after flannery goes, i'm happy to give you a rebuttal. i pride myself on this, and i mean it. i just offer that so everyone knows you have the offer. i thank you, mr. ray for coming on. >> hey, ari, that's a cheap shot. i'm sorry to tell you, that's a cheap shot. >> it's always interesting when you offer someone rebuttal time and they don't say thank you, that itself is characterized differently. i work very hard on the diversity in all senses of the people we have here, and i appreciate mr. ray coming on. and my offer stands if he wants to come on after you. i give you a chance to give your views. >> well, it's really something when a lawyer doesn't fill a gap in speaking to fill it with his own views. and you gave an opportunity to contradict what he said i said venal, suspicious and operator.

that's how i characterized the attorney general. i stand by it. i didn't hear anything to contradict it. and, you know, it's very interesting. >> i guess what he would argue, and i want to stay on the substance here, he would be concerned that some of the guests were issuing sweeping judgments of barr before we know everything, but we've done a pretty careful analysis of the letter and what he is doing. i guess the question for you would be if viewers have coming in or maybe viewers tuning in late saying oh my god, what is all this? what's the fireworks? we're out of the footnotes and into the fire. what is your best evidence for your concern and what we heard from chairman nadler is apparently concern on the hill that barr has now proceeded tonight with an incomplete picture? >> well, he certainly has when you consider the fact that he cherry picked basically a press release that uphold his decision to kill the entire investigation. and now the justice department has become the just us department since the original

attacks by -- well, consider he fires comey because comey won't reassure him he's not a target, and he won't go easy with flynn. and what happens after he fires him? he goes into the oval office and high-fives the ambassador from russia, kislyak about that won't be a trouble anymore. and we're still asking whether or not there is a link between what our government in connection with russia and whether or not there is obstruction? i don't think that's a question. >> do you think when it goes to the president's intent then, do you think what you just mentioned would be in the obstruction section potentially as okay, as have i emphasized, there is not collusion indictments but mueller may have amassed evidence that that kind of behavior seemed to be a negative for anyone looking at potential obstruction? >> when you decide not to bring a case, you often put evidence in stovepipes and say independently they don't work, instead of looking at the whole picture. for instance, when the russians are setting up the equipment to

scheme with america and to set up those outlets, and then they steal the information to put into it, early on who did they identify? they identified trump. he is the beneficiary, the only beneficiary of this. so are we to believe the russians liked his show "the apprentice" and they just wanted to prefer him over all the primary candidates? no, i don't think so. so you have to define normal logic and what people on the street think. and when we tell a story, a narration of what makes sense or not, people get it and the law follows that narration. but you know, one unintended consequence of this in my opinion, the destruction of a good investigation going from sessions to whitaker to barr is that now there will be no pardon for any federal offense that could be brought in say the state of new york or the county of manhattan because there won't

be any preexclusive effect, no way to preclude what's going on. i realize i've taken a little bit of time. but i can take his time, can't i? he didn't decide to answer anything i said. >> i've had ray on several times. he felt strongly. you felt strongly. he is invited back. you're invited back. you guys are invited together or back and forth. i really believe what i say out here. let's hear all the evidence. let's have good faith debates. and everyone always says you're a great presence and you look like robert redford. well werke may have found the first person who doesn't think you look like robert redford. i don't know if robert ray will give you that honor. >> well, that's fine by me. john flannery is fine. >> you've looked like john flannery your whole life. as you can tell by if you're watching, we're flying by the seat of our pants. we have more including what the democrats will do, what is their power the get the rest of the mueller report, and one of mueller's witnesses also joins me live. you haven't heard from any witnesses yet, but you will

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welcome back to our special coverage. we are joined by a special witness michael caputo who served on the trump campaign as well as eleanor clift. thanks to you both for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> i'm happy to have you. i've enjoyed relying on you as a source and a guest, as someone who was inside and faced mueller's team. i told you we'd talk again when it ended, and here we are. give us your view of what the results mean. >> well, i think for my family it means that after two years of having our lives on pause, we can press play again. i also think for the president, it proves that his words that there was no collusion were -- he was telling the truth all along. i knew it all along. i was in the trump campaign. i knew we weren't working with the russian government in any way. and i also think we should reveal every single bit of this report. i think let it all hang out. it's time really to do that. and do it as soon as possible. i also think it's very

difficult for anybody in the audience out here across america whose decided they were going to drink every time someone on the national cable television network news said it's not over yet, because it's over, ari. >> you said let it all out. the president talked about that last week, but then, of course, he did say of course it's up to barr. don jr. said let it all out. the house voted. do you think bill barr is making potentially a mistake by slow-walking it with only a couple of sentences here? >> i don't think he is slow walking. i think the report is likely voluminous. one of your earlier commentators said we really don't know how many pages are in there. i think it's likely voluminous. i don't think anybody is going the see the documents that were behind it all, but i think the report itself is large. ag barr, who has been a strong presence in our justice system for many, many years is going to take a very strong look at this for the careful redactions that

he may need to make and protect the sources and methods of our investigation system. i think it's going to take more than a couple of days. i'd really like to get it out late this week, if he can. >> right. >> i think he intends to do it, if you believe anything he said. >> i think eleanor has a question. >> would you say it's fair to say that robert mueller is now president trump's best friend? >> eleanor, first of all, i've watched you for years. i really think the world of you and i'm really glad to be on the same show with you. it's a real honor for me. >> okay. >> but i don't think he's his best friend. i haven't liked this investigation very much. >> sure. >> i don't think like what they done to my best friend roger stone, what they done to paul manafort, what they did to george papadopoulos, what they did to general flynn, i don't like much of any of that. but you have to say straight up front that these guys are the strongest array of investigatory talent our federal government

has put together in a long, long time. so maybe the president was swinging at them pretty hard for several months. but if these guys who the president thinks were against him all this time can't find a lick of collusion and aren't able to come up with evidence of obstruction that they would charge on, you know, i think it's a pretty resounding result. >> hmm. >> does it clear the way for the president to pardon some of these people? >> and you get two sentences for, that unfortunately. >> absolutely. i think in the evidence of no collusion, he should pardon roger stone, george papadopoulos, and general flynn immediately. >> wow. do you think he'll do that soon? >> i think it's hard for him to do that politically, but all the grounds for everything that's happened to those people are based on the idea of his collusion there was none. >> michael, you had a front row seat. we've heard from you before. i hope you'll continue the dialogue with us. >> i enjoy being on. and thanks a lot for inviting

me. >> thank you, michael caputo, and eleanor clift. next we look towards the future and what comes next. everyone's got to listen to mom. when it comes to reducing the sugar in your family's diet, coke, dr pepper and pepsi hear you. we're working together to do just that.

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welcome to kasie dc. we are live every sunday from washington from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern, but this is a special night. as we come on the air, the principal conclusions we've waited for so long from robert mueller and his investigators are out. a summary from attorney general william barr explains that no american involved with president trump's campaign conspired or coordinated with russia in the 2016 campaign. but then there's the question of