my thanks to my guests, that does it for our hour, thank you for watching, i'm nicolle wallace, i'm talking fast, you were fantastic this week talking to us through the staning breaking news, i could not take your eyes off of you. zlaun >> thank you, we had an amazing team here, i had everybody in place to make it all -- >> i'm going to pass this down to kacie once i'm done with it,

it has a long history here as msnbc. if it is wednesday, chaos and confusion about collusion. >> good evening, i'm katy tur. lester holt just sat down with former fbi director jim comey in an exclusive interview on "nbc nightly news". let's take our first look. >> your firing, you go before the senate judiciary committee, you decline to answer questions about collusion at that point. a few days later you're fired. a few days after that i sit down with president trump and he says when i decided to just do it, i

said to myself i said this russia thing with trump and slaush is a made up story, what did you think when you heard -- think when you heard that? >> again, the president appears to be saying i got rid of this guy to shut down an investigation that threatened me. >> it was of course the president's decision to fire comey that was part of the kruck probe. and we start with the chaos and collusion surrounding special council robert mueller's investigation. the biggest confusion remains on the issue to punt on the issue of whether or not the president punted on obstruction of jtsz. last night jim comey who had a we'll documents and close relationship with bob mueller expressed be wilderment at that

decision or indecision. he notes that the entire rational for the special council is to make sure that the politicals like ag bill barr are not making the key charging decisions. it is not just jim comey who is still scratching his head. our own legal analyst chuck r e rosenberg is confused also. so is eric holder who hired mueller at one point, and adam schiff is defiantly saying there is undoubtedly collusion despite the findings that there was not enough evidence. let's try to cut through this collusion. doug berns is a federal prosecutor. phil bump, reporter, and doug,

does it make sengs to you why he would punt on the issue of obstruction? >> no, i said coming out of the kate that after he reached the decision, it didn't make sense that he would say i didn't use the normal process with making a determination to whether or not it was obstruction. he is did it on the first part. i want to make a fairness point though, everybody kmujumped and said an independent counsel is to be separate from d.o.j. the independent statute lapsed, this is a special counctsel in d under the same umbrella. it makes it less -- never the less it is correct to say wait why didn't he make that decision, why did he let par do

it. >> especially considering, and that is if he intended to let barr do it. he sent the president a long memo outlining what his views were on executive authority. given that it should not be surprising that bill barr would make the determination he did. >> yeah, had you been asked to predict what he did, he might have come down along the lines of i don't think he will suggest that i committed obstruction. but his letter left open the door, he included that quote from mueller that was i can't say whether or not it should have been concluded. he didn't say that mueller said it reached the level.

but there we're having this conversation. >> why don't you think he did? >> i think he was acting honestly. they believed this did not necessarily hit a particular threshold and want today make that argument. they were still saying here is what mueller said it was. >> i wonder how much james comey's decision factored into whether or not mueller if he felt comfortable making this determination on his own. >> it seemed peculiar at the time, comey would determine that hillary clinton using a private e-mail server, there was no evidence to support a criminal charge of obstruction or that there was a criminal action behind using that private e-mail. however, he still stood up at that press conference and went through a litany of her apparent

miss deeds saying she had been careless in using the private e-mail server. that served up a lot of political fauder. mueller did not do that, but who knows what is contained in that report that offers similarly evidence of things that president trump did that did not lead up to the conclusion of a principal pr criminal prosecution. >> i wonder if we'll see as much as we did which was laying out everything that was there and comey ending it with saying she was very reckless. is robert mueller saying that he didn't commit a crime, but i can't exonerate him? a version of potentially a version of saying hillary clinton was reckless? >> first of all let's draw a critical distinction which was that mueller is the lawyer, he is the prosecutor, that is important. but to your question, i find it

endlessly fascinating as a trial lawyer that you're going to get these distinctions. did he commit a crime, is there evidence that rises to prob cause? and it gets mixed together very often in the political discussions and i find that interesting, fwbut it is an ope call, and these calls, i felt that was less salient and important on the collusion, but it is warptranted on the second part. >> on obstruction. >> here is one that we have not talked about in awhile, and this is donald trump drafting don junior's miss leading statement about the tower peting. they were on a podcast describing the day that hope

hicks and the president called him to discuss the statement, let's listen. >> the next day i was home and the phone wrings again and it is the white house and i pick it up and it is hope, and she says hold for a moment for the president. oh, great, okay, now they're both going to rip into me, so they start to lay into me and he is laying into me for who approved this statement and i said talk to your lawyers about this, don't talk to me about this, talk to your lawyers. the idea that a 20-something press aide would put the president of the united states on the phone to talk about a federal criminal investigation without his attorneys on the phone to protect the riff ledge, and that his president was not aware of it was just astounding to me and terrifying. >> there are so many examples just like this. >> there are a lot of examples, and why i think people are still

confused about the decision not to make a decision on the obstruction of justice is all of the behavior that people thought looked like collusion or obstruction or people wanted to know what is this behavior if it is not obstruction. i'm also very interesting in what are the details of which mueller wrote about. i any when you think about the way that the president was acting and the people around him were acting, it is clear they were lying at some parts and that he dictated a statement saying his son went to meet this russian official because of hillary clinton and that it was for russian adoptions which we know is not true, and it is critical that the report be made public after that, and it is also clear that the president may not want that to be the case. sarah sanders said there could

be executive privilege issues. and the white house asked, at first, and the president was saying of course that the report should be made public, and we're seeing the white house walk that back because of those details. >> is this an expansion of executive power? mr. mueller's decision to not take a position on whether or not mr. trump's interattentions constituted obstruction of justice means that future occupants of the white house will entitled to take similar actions, more, perhaps, an any other outcome of the mueller investigation. this may become it's most enduring legacy. that the president can go after anyone he wants in any way that he wants. he can make calls to, or get angry at the attorney gri fener for recusing himself, that there

is no activity that a president can take that can meddle with an investigation? >> i would also add to that is can a candidate now running for president, facebook a russian operative calls you and says i have opposition research on your opponent, i have dirt, i think that's why the details of the report are important. robert mueller could have said look, the president is not -- it is doj promise to not indict the president, but maybe he wrote that the president, even as he is talking about makele flynn, and saying could go easy on the national secure advisor, maybe he says look that is not good behavior and maybe they should not do those type of things, but

we don't know, what did robert mueller say about this behavior? >> yeah, he was developing at trump power in moscow and they were lying about that saying it informs the past, whatever term you want to use he was compromised, conflicts of interest, is this all laid in and out this mueller report that explains why they're bad but not criminal. >> you heard a lot of criminal law experts. i have been doing it 30 years every day, there is a distinction and i'm glad it was raised. many things are ill advised. they're conflicts of interest, they should never be done, they're horrible political but been but not everything is a full on political criminal

offense. when you say can you see clear, that's terrible, but it is not obstruction of justice unless it rises with corrupt intent, exchange of money, i will get your kid or nephew a job. that is sounding criminal but it is legal. >> is it important just to get it down in writing, this is what we think of the behavior so it lays out to a candid for president is is supposed to comport themselves? >> yeah, we created this whole legal political slurry of thinking about this. we talked about is in terms of criminality and he will gal leg. we have two key examples here. we also basically said that hope

hicks lied to robert mueller, she was not diindicted. there is all of these things that play into what robert mooul sere doing, and whether or not hope hicks may have said this or done this, this is hugely important. >> so interesting, so many questions, doug burns, thank you so much. coming up, i will ask a democratic member about all of the collusion confusion and if house democrats are ready to change mueller's findings. and watch the exclusive interview tonight of jim comey tonight on nbc nightly news with lester holt. nightly news with lester holt. it's the kind of big where you'll never have to ask, "should i scooch up?" it's big that looks at a sunroof

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circumstantial case? >> no, i geent incan't go into particulars but there is more than circumstantial evidence now. >> now schiff is the chairman of the intelligence committee and he says he is still confidence there was collusion between the trump campaign and russia despite bill barr saying that robert mueller found no evidence of collusion. joining me now is a congressman from illinois, thank you for being here. >> sure, thank you. >> adam schiff said "the washington post" today undoubtedly there is collusion. is adam schiff saying that the william barr summary is not the correct summary of the report? >> i have not personally heard him say that. i have heard him say there is evidence of collusion.

but ultimately i think that he has also old people like me that he was going to abide by the collusions that robert mueller came to with regard to these issues. but i think under lying all of this is the fact that we don't have a report or materialing s back up the findings. the people want the mueller report, not the barr report. >> so you believe he means there is evidence of collusion? >> yes, that is how i heard him say it. multiple times. so i think that with regard to evidence of collusion obviously it is well documented what that -- what those pieces of evidence are. >> what are they? >> well just a couple examples there was the meeting between paul manafort, the chairman of the president's campaign, and a gentleman named constantine

kalymnic, mr. manafort passed private poling data to him and he asked for relief on sanctions from russia. this is something we know because paul manafort lied about it in the proceedings in dc. that is just one peiece of evidence, but that being said that is just one instant. >> they say they found no collusion between donald trump's campaign and the russians, are you saying robert mueller might be wrong? or what are you saying? >> i'm saying there might be evidence of collusion, but put it together -- >> if there is no evidence of collusion to rise to the evidence of a crime, what do you

suggest is the remedy? >> i think that one of the problems that we have is again we don't have the report so we don't know for instance how does this bear on counter intelligence issues? this is an important issue that i hope folks in your audience may already know, we are charged with a committee that is broader, how do we protect our country and how do we make sure that 2016 doesn't happen again, what are i ties between members of our government and our foreign adversaries. and whether or not our connections to an extent so secret that if they were divulged they would embarrass the subject and therefore form a source of leverage for our adversaries. >> on that topic, adam shichiff

says we're going to continue our informations, lining up with what you're saying, he adds it doesn't add to any part of mueller's report that they were discussing counter intelligence. is that what you understand as well? >> i'm not sure about that, i have not seen that report, but there is a hope or a presumption that mr. mueller would brief us. at the end of the day 84% said we want that report, the fact that we have not received it yet, but there is a sign that the attorney general or the president himself don't want us to see and the question is why.

>> the attorney general says -- lindsey graham, and they said they will make it public in weeks not months, are you saying the report is going to be different from the summary. do you believe it will? >> i am not confidence about anything with regard to what bill barr will do with this report at this point, katie. one thing that i'm concerned about is he himself may redact section and ask for their edits. that would be very problematic. the target of an investigation would should have input into the redacting of that target by that report. >> you don't know if the

president of the united states was a target of the investigation. >> we know that he was a target to the extent that barr's summary had to clear him. so the fact that -- between the trump campaign and russia. >> certainly president trump was part of the trump campaign. he was leader of the trump campaign and a target of the investigation or a subject of the investigation. >> you're saying you do not trust william barr? >> it's not that i don't necessarily trust, i just want to see the home work. we may need to even talk to mr. mueller himself, but we're all

just speculating right now because we don't have that report. the attorney general set a low bar for exoneration. he set a low bar about obstruction of evidence that we can't even see. so so many people around here are willing to respect his conclusions but they want to see his report and the underlying documents. >> thank you very much for joining us. >> yes, thank you. >> coming up the president reportedly dismissing the concerns of his advisors who told him it was a mistake to push to demolish obama care. we'll talk to a top white house advisor coming up. a top white h advisor coming up.

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welcome back tonight in 2020 vision. joe biden is education pressing regret over his handling of the anita hill hearing. >> to this day i regret not getting her the testimony that she deserved. hill accused clarence thomas of sexual harassment.

she faced a group of questioning from entirely white men. >> her reputation was attacked, and i wish i could have done something. critics say that biden informs a position to do more and as he contemplates a white house run in a post me too era with the most diverse pool of candidates in history, his handling of anita hill's testimony could be a problem in the case. >> people want to know will it happen again. >> at that event last night he spoke out against what he called a while man's culture in this country, but anita is hill is just one thing that could cause him trouble in an increasingly liberal and increasingly diverse and increasingly female democratic party. we'll have more "mtp daily"

after this daily" after this

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. we have a plan far better than obama care. >> welcome back, the white house has not given any details about what the white house health care plan would be, that comes just two days after the justice department excuse me announced they were supporting the demolition of the entire affordable care act. the president's decision to try to get obama care thrown out in court came despite concerns from his vice president, his attorney general, and reportedly the top republican in the house, nbc news learned that everyone within the trump hadministratio has come together to support his decision, but they tell through is no clear path forward with a plan to replace obama care if it

is struck down. joining us now is trump's director of legislative affairs. are you working on a plan now? have you convened a committee to try to replace obama care? >> let's step back and remind your viewers how we got to this point. i think in your lead in it is important to note a couple things. we're stated with a court decision in texas where a judge ruled individual mandate. if you are recalling and your viewers recall, justice roberts used a pretty tortured logic. by that very nature if you have removed the tax as congress did last year, then the judge has ruled that the rest of obama care can't stand. republicans have campaigned for a long time about the affairs of obama care. even though they promised if you like your doctor you can keep it, that was a lie, and also

promises that would lawyer peop -- lore peop lower premiums. it has been been the last year that premiums have started to stabilize because they allowed more plans to come on to the exchanges. >> okay, but obama care right now is popular with the majority of americans, according to a recent fox news pole whl, 52% disapprove, 37% approve of it. if everything you say is view and it gois to the supreme court and it is not upheld again by chief justice roberts, again what is the plan you have to replace it. what is the plan to replace it so that 20 million americans are not suddenly without health

insurance. >> you should rest assured that 20 million americans will certainly not be without health insurance. there is promises that 28 people people would be on the exstranges. and the question you're asking is that if you throw the whole thing out people -- coverages will not be protected. the president promised that he would not sign any bill that did not protect existing conditions in the first place. the administration will come forward with more free market reforms. >> according to pete williams, if there is a time line on this, it could go to the fifth circuit, this is in the middle of 2020, it will be a political issue, but again if this is something that is struck down, t if obama can care is not constitutional or legal, what is the plan from the white house to

relace it? we have not seen a plan that has a consensus from any republicans. republicans tried to repeal to overturn obama care 70 times since it was entacted and there is still no plan that republicans have gotten around to relace it. >> remember that to your point about the politics of this and your polling data, in 2010, 2016, 2017, they won on the decision to repeal and replace and you will see the administration come forward as you said the supreme court likely won't rule on this until 2020, we hope they will side with the judge in texas who says that if you repeal the individual mandate hopefully it will come forward. i think you will see the health and human services committee do that in the comes months. >> that was done on the pacts of

coming up with a replacement for obama care. there is still not a replacement and i remind you of 2018, democrats ran on the issue of health care, more than 50% of the ads supporting democrats were on health care. many lost on the issue of health care, do you think this is a winning issue for republicans after 2018? >> slously. any there there is different reasons for thos loses. i absolutely think that we can lower premiums. and i think that it can absolute i will be a winning issue. we were not able to get enough democrats to support the plans -- >> no they failed because you could not get enough republicans. >>. >> john mccain voted it down. >> john mccain did.

there was 48 senators that -- that had the consensus of the republican party. >> 48 senate republicans and three who opposed it, you're right there was a cup that opposed it, but not one democrat came over to spot the plaupport. the same thing happened in the house. we could not get democrats to come over and support the house plan, there was a few occasions republicans could not support it. >> with all due respect this law has been in place since 2010. republicans have campaigns consistently on repealing and replacing it, the president, i was there at every rally, talking about repealing and replacing obama care, he would come up with something beautiful and fantastic and everyone would be covered, don't worry about it, it is 2019 and we're two years into the presidency and we have not seen a plan from the

white house. >> we put forward a plan, we didn't have not democrat votes. >> but you also didn't have enough republican votes. >> i think candidly we had plenty of republicans. >> how are you going to get susan collins to support a plan. >> so yeah, the reality is that we didn't get democrats to support the plan. >> how will you get susan collins behind you? >> we'll work with susan collins on a plan, we think we can have ar plan that provides more -- >> when will we see this plan? >> we will be coming forward with a plan. >> it is always good to have you, thank you very much, we look forward to seeing a plan. >> coming up next, betsy devos

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read reviews check hotel prices book things to do tripadvisor do you know how many kids will be affected by that cut? >> let me just say again, we had to make some difficult decisions with this budget. >> this is a question of how many kids -- >> i don't know the number of

kids. >> okay, it is 272,000 kids. >> the political uproar is growing after that hearing where betsy devos discussed plans to cut all federal finding for the special olympics. the trump administration wants to eliminate the $18 million it contributes to that program, that is part of the $7 billion cut back. >> it is outrageous. i'm shocked because we have a administration that likes to talk about their support for the disability community and then you see something outrageous like this. >> i think they continue to support the special olympics. >> but she standing by saying she setting funding for the

department saying our education department appropriations bill will not cut funding for the program. there you have it, we'll be right back. program. ere you have it, we'll be right back guy a promotion. you should be mad at forced camaraderie. and you should be mad at tech that makes things worse. but you're not mad, because you have e*trade, who's tech makes life easier by automatically adding technical patterns on charts and helping you understand what they mean. don't get mad. get e*trade's simplified technical analysis.

it is time now for "the lid." according to our capitol hill producer, jerry nadler says he spoke to william barr and he said the report will come within weeks, not months, and that it is a substantial report. they're not going to meet the april 2nd deadline that nadler set, and that he did agree to testify in front of house judiciary. there has been no time set for that. that is kind of a big deal. >> yeah, that is a good detail and it moves the story forward a little from where it has been. we don't know what he will agree

to. there will be a lot of redakotass, anything that mueller gleaned by talking to a grand jury, so it might be a spotty discussion of a report that no one has seen yet. it will be a frusf fruitful conversation. >> my suspicion is that the add min station will be very sensitive to playing their hand. my guess they're going to be -- they don't want people to think they're holding back hundred dollars of pages, but i think there is a problem with the whole time line that there has been established by the president and by his alleys.

everything will be pushing back. >> so is the timing. the longer it is out there the longer it is just this summary, does that go into the public's mind what is there? >> yeah. >> it totally does and what wha all this, as though trump and his ale lies have basically used this four page document to an solan -- they absolve them of everything. >> and why does the white house insist on spinning and lying about the findings on the document? they say it clears the president of the obstruction, that robert mueller cleared the president of obstruction. it did not. it specifically says this does not exonerate the president. why continue to lie about it? >> i think this is the white house that hasn't ever let truth get in the way. and i think that they feel as though that they can set this narrative and if they keep on repeating it, keep ooerepeating

things that somehow it makes it true you. there is real strength in the idea that the attorney general barr has already put out this four page letter. i think this i'm with you, why can't we just get a page number. why can't we say that the russia section is 200 pages and then we'll go with the obstruction section that is another 200 pages. just if they were really interested in transparency, we'd start to learn more about the report. >> how long was the starr report, anyone know off the top of their head? over 1,000 pages. and that was about -- a lot about a clinton affair and this is about issues of national sdurtd securit security. the number of people that they interviewed, the subpoenas, wiretapping. i imagine that this will be pretty lengthy. is the white house trying to get their hands on this before it foes to congress? >> the sources that i've been

talking to say they are not trying to get their hands on it ahead of congress. the president's personal lawyer rudy giuliani also told me that they are patiently waiting attorney general barr's decision to try to figure out when he will make the report public and that they will consume it along with the public. but of course if you are close to the president and you're someone who like us have covered this president for a long time, you understand that the president must be super anxious to read this report and super anxious to understand what he is facing. because i will say as a reporter, i pushed back on the idea that barr's letter will him onset the narrative. if there is a long passage about the president's behavior and it breaking norms and not being something that future presidents should to, i think that that can change the narrative even if it comes out a month from now. >> do you think that we'll at some point see robert mueller in front of congress? is there a strong possibility of that? >> i think there is a strong possibility of it, but i think that the white house will move very quickly to try to exert

executive privilege and suggest that he can't talk about a wide range of things that they feel as they come under -- so i don't know exactly how much he could say is what i'm saying. >> and marc short talked about how the administration is trying to do an end run on obamacare with the courts. i asked marc over and over again whether or not there was a plan and there is no plan. politically why are they making this move now? because if this is -- if this does blow up in 2020, say this is stwruk toruck down, this is middle of the election and dnls ha democrats have been strong when is coming to the issue of health care. >> and your anchoring this weekend was amazing and that interview was even more amazina. he was making the case that there weren't a lot of democrats backing their plan and that is why they haven't been able to get something through when we all know that it is because republicans didn't have a plan.

remarkably the president says once we get this lawsuit up to the supreme court, we'll come up with something. right now the president has put republicans in a tough position because he is saying i need to repeal this obamacare, get rid of it as soon as pofblg. but they literally do not have a plan and the white house has not been able to articulate any sort of plan and i've been asking all day. >> and here is the thing. having been out on the campaign trail in 2018 and now 2020, this is a topic that comes up at every town meeting or house party that candidate attends. they are not talking about russia. first question is i'm so he nervous about losing my health care. tell me about health care. why are people going after my pre-exist conditions. why is my neighbor on opoid addiction, why might they lose their coverage. this is such a stinging teking o hand republicans.

and whether there is a weird sort of scheme that marc seems to think that he can get through the congress, normal voters don't care about that, they just care about if they lose this. >> and what is the plan and will i be protected. and will my premiums go up. three big questions. beth, phillip, thank you very much. thank you for being nice to the pregnant lady. ahead, an important issue to put on the table. d, an importano put on the table [zara larsson - "wow"] ♪ ♪ baby i'm not even in a gown ♪ and the only thing u have to say is wow ♪

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in case you missed it, as we turn more are and more attention to 2020, we'll be talking more and more about where the candidates stand. and in the case of one beto o'rourke, we know. countertops, tables, places where fight ought not go. robert fwran srancis o'rourke, on you. standing on tables and in shoes no less. it hasn't just happened once. oh, no, this is a trind. trend. a trend that appears to have legs. feet go on the floor, sir. why can't you be more like mitt romney? he is so worried about spreading germs he removes the candles from his birthday blows them out. so get off the table tops, be more grounded. make it your sole responsibility to put your best foot forward. and if you are going to stand on tables, be like betty ford.

at the very least, she took her shoes off. in closing perhaps former president richard nixon said it best. >> sock it to me. >> get it, so being? that is all for tonight. we'll be back tomorrow. >> thank you so much. we have a ton to get to tonight. two mueller witnesses joining me for the first time discussing their lynns to a suspected russian spy and why all the lies if there was no conspiracy. i'll put the questions right to them. and also for the first time, eric holder will talk to us about criminal justice reform and family separations. an interview we haven't aired yet. but we begin with breaking news. tonight we have evidence of a possible breakthrough on the future of the mueller report itself. bill barr will testify before the house. this was announced moments ago