that does it for me, i'll be back tomorrow at 8:00 eastern. thank you for watching, "a.m. joy" with joy reid starts right now. this report is all going to come out. and it's just going to reflect more poorly on the attorney general if when it does come out, and we look at the difference between what he redacted and what was under those redactions, it shows an effort to cover up or conceal. either evidence of impropriety or evidence of a lack of morals or ethics or judgment. and that is shy of criminality. or in the case of obstruction of justice, is criminality. >> good morning, and welcome to "a.m. joy." adam schiff issued a warning to

the attorney general and donald trump that the full mueller report will come out. schiff spoke soon after attorney general william barr announced he will release a redacted version of the mueller report by mid april. and that he will testify before congress on may 1. barr defended his four-page memo characterizing the mueller report saying quote i'm aware of some media reports and other public statements mischaracterized my march 24, 2019 supplemental notification as a summary of the special counsel's investigation. it was not. it did not purport to be an exhaustive recounting, but a summary of the principal conclusions. joining me is glen kirscher. glen to you first, this barr report, which i have here, this very brief four-page summary of what he says are the principal conclusions in the report. what are the chances that this is an exhaustive recounting of

what robert mueller found in what we have now learned is about a 400 poij report minus the supplements and amendments. >> the chances are slim to none and slim is fading fast. the four-page report, what was most troubling about it is he, when bill barr was relating some of bob mueller's conclusions he said bob mueller found no evidence of conspiracy between the trump campaign and russia that would warrant criminal charges. set that aside for a moment. what was bob mueller's other conclusion if we can take barr at his word? it was that bob mueller could not clear the president for obstructing justice. when you let that sink in, that is dramatic. why? because bob mueller is the king

of sir couple specircumspect. what did bill barr do? bill barr said bob mueller, then let me go ahead and clear him. and joy he tried to clear him, without any supporting evidence. without any legal analysis. without any evidentiary basis. >> bill barr poisoned the well of public opinion. just as if he were the water plant manager in flint, michigan, he poisoned the well of public opinion. but congress is going to get the report, the american people are going to get the report and bill barr's summary will mean nothing at the end of the day, because the evidence will speak for itself. >> our understanding would be, glen that the gang of eight, meaning four democrats and four republicans who bill barr cannot keep from this information, he can't keep it from them, then it's a question of what gets redacted.

>> this letter specifies two things that he said mueller was looking at. one direct assistance by or participation from the trump campaign in the internet research agency's hacking of the dnc. which i've never heard any reports of anyone saying, anybody even alleging that they did. but he said that narrowly mueller looked at whether or not the trump campaign helped the internet research agency in attacking operation against the dnc and whether it participated in the dissemination of the emails by wikileaks. those two parts of what we call russia-gate. we don't know all of what mueller did. is that all that robert mueller was looking at? >> i would say that's contrary to the may 2017 appointment letter which set out the jurisdictional mandate. the scope of bob mueller's investigation, it was worded much more broadly than that. in the first of three

paragraphs, it said that bob mule certificate directed to investigate any contacts or coordination between members of the trump campaign and russia. that's a fairly broad mandate. so i don't understand sand i don't think any of us will ever understand until we see the full mueller report. why bill barr would try to constrict the actual scope of bob mueller's investigation? but what i remain confident of is that in those 400 pages without even counting the attachments, bob mueller will have done a thorough job and woe will all see what it is he found. when he can't clear the president of obstructing justice, i suspect what he found is going to be pretty dramatic. >> one would think that if there was, if the entire report was exculpatory, it would be in the interest of bob barr, based on the memo he wrote to get the job, the audition memo, he would

release an executive summary. i want to go you, charlie. let me play a couple more sound bites of adam schiff, speaking with rachel maddow on friday. talking about what william barr was required to do, versus what he did. >> required by law or by the regulations, he certainly didn't need to provide that summary/nonsummary. presumably in a 400-page report by the special counsel. the special counsel wrote his own summary. there would be nothing to preclude bill barr from releasing the summary. >> i think what the concern that people have is, william bar did write a much longer memo, this memo, a much longer memo, 19 pages before he got a job that was circulated around washington in which he concluded in advance by saying that in his view of

presidential power, a president cannot commit obstruction of justice. the president is the executive branch. he embody it is the executive branch, he has that much power. looking at the history of william bar and his attitude towards presidential power. should anyone have been surprised that he then concluded on his own. didn't let congress do it, but he concluded that this president did not commit obstruction of justice. return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear. those of us who are iran contra obsessives who have been waiting for this moment for a long time. no one should have been surprised. it was william barr who advised president george h.w. bush when lawrence walsh was closing in on him and when president george h.w. bush was leaving office, christmas eve of 1992 to pardon six of the iran contra conspirators, including casper weinberger, as a 1986 campaign

diary. kept by then president bush had fallen into the greedy little hands of the iran contra prosecutors. and earlier, when the iraq-gate scandal, about the covert arming of saddam hussein by successive administrations, using various banking shenanigans and agricultural credits, when that broke, he was the attorney general who declined to present a special prosecutor then. so no, i think the chief characteristics of william bar as a government lawyer is covering for republican presidents. >> well we know william safire, the conservative essayist and columnist in 1992 referred to him as the cover-up general in the iraq-gate scandal. i wonder to go with you, glen kirscher for a moment, setting aside whatever someone might think that this man might do, he's a partisan, he's a republican. he said in advance he doesn't

believe that presidents can commit obstruction of justice. could it be that william bar simply has a view of presidential power that sets him up to do what he did? to say in his view, this can't happen? that no matter what is in that 400-page report, his past views on presidential power might mean in his own view that obstruction is impossible? if that's the case, then should he be the person deciding that rather than congress? >> no, and i think congress will get to decide it once they see the report. probably in the setting of considering impeachment hearings, i think there were two significant hurdles to overcome if the president was ever going to be held accountable in a court of law for what he has done. one was bill barr's unduly expansive view of a power of a president that he can never obstruct. i know he walked that back during the confirmation hearings. but the 19-page memo sure makes it seem like he views the president as a king who can do whatever he wants regarding firing people and pardoning

people. regardless of what his intent was. so the first hurdle was that unduly expansive view of executive power. but the second, which remains is the doj office of legal counsel opinion that says you can't indict a sitting president. so i don't know that we were ever going to get to a place where we could haul the president into court and hold him accountable for the crimes he committed. barr has sealed that fate. but i don't think that barr's opinion that i'll clear the president of obstruction with no evidentiary basis, i don't think that really matters much at the end of the day. i think it matters because it poisons the well of public opinion and now sv is hearing the president say he's been completely exonerated, which he hasn't. but i do think at the end of the day it's not the statement of bill bar that will control. it's the evidence that bob mueller has found that will control, once we see it once congress sees it. that's when we'll be able to make an informed opinion about

whether this president colluded with russia. we know there's not enough evidence to charge according to bob mueller, a conspiracy with russia. but did he collude? different question. and did he commit obstruction of justice? >> right. and just the fact to what you're saying, judge napolitano, this guy is on fox, you know, and here's what he had to say in the same regard on thursday. >> i think that congressman schiff is correct in that report will be evidence of the existence of a conspiracy. not enough evidence to prove the skpisens beyond a reasonable doubt. in that report will be evidence of obstruction of justice. interfering with an fbi investigation for a personal gain. but not enough evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. >> i mean charlie pierce, you know, it's, i don't think that it is in quebec qew that bob barr is not the deciding authority here, as glen just said, as you heard judge napolitano said. the evidence in the mueller report will come out, people

will get to read it but the public opinion, the well has been poisoned. on the republican side, you have people like kevin mcarthur, who used to joke, i think putin pays trump. that he thinks he's compromised, lining up on the side of singing the "no collusion" songbook. as a political matter they've written this narrative and this is what republicans are going to try to use against democrats. >> it's funny, joy, because you make the same mistake a lot of us have been making which is to say bob barr, not bill barr. bob barr was the congressman who pursued the pill clinton impeachment. i don't think there were any republicans going around saying a president couldn't obstruct justice ins that days, i don't remember any. i think what happened was, this goes -- again goes back to as i said, the sterling days of yesteryear, the republican party made a commitment in the late 1970s that watergate was never going to happen again and they formed a template to handle

scandals. first put it into place during iran contra. where you stonewall the investigation, string it out until you can make a charge that it's wasting taxpayers' money. and then ultimately you have somebody in authority have you issue pardons or close the investigation down. and alas, a lot of the media in the 1980s went along with that kind of strategy. now it's set in stone now you're seeing it being activated again in this particular instance. >> it's interesting because you did have devin nunez attempt to do a similar thing. had you the senate intelligence committee issue a report that was similar to the bill barr one seems to be the one that's going to carry forward into 2020. i think it was a term called gaslighting. thank you so much. and more on this conversation after the break. no♪

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that mueller report should have been produced to the congress without his commentary. but clearly, you know, bill barr views his role in the unitary executive theory as being the hand of the president. the president's roy cohn, there to do the president's bidding and his will. he was a brilliant hire for the white house. but the long-term consequence of this is that in the future any

president under investigation if he doesn't like what the attorney general is doing, will fire him and find another that's more suitable to his liking. >> it's been quite the week for house intelligence chairman adam schiff, who is standing firm on the april 2 deadline for the full mueller report to be row leased as republicans stage calls for his resignation. joining me is former assistant watergate special prosecutor and bill butler and natasha bertrand of the "atlantic." i recall reading that richard nix-to go through a few people before he could find someone willing to fire archibald cox. finding his roy cohn was harder than donald trump. donald trump has projected for three years, two years since he's been in the white house that he was angry at his first attorney general for recusing himself. and there are numerous stories, headline stories, "washington

post," "new york times," high-level stories stating that he wanted mueller to be fired. the mueller probe to be ended and for his attorney general to protect him. so the record from trump seems to be that he wanted what bill barr has done. not to accuse bill barr of covering up the vults of the mueller investigation. we don't know what's in the mueller report. it does seem that his public statements have been sufficiently exculpatory that they're helpful to the president. >> they're very helpful. and the real problem with this is, time is the enemy of the truth in this case. because it will set in in the public's mind, particularly in the minds of those who support donald trump, that what bar said is the answer. it may or may not be. we don't know until we see it we only know that partial sentences from the mueller report were included. which always suggests that something important has been

left out. or you would use the full sentence. and until we see why mueller did what he did, why did he leave the decision? was because there wasn't enough evidence or there was counterveiling evidence or was it that he felt it should go to congress for a political judgment on what the evidence meant? was it because the counterintelligence information was what was so compelling? rather than the narrow elements of a criminal case? and until we see the full report, we will not know. but we do know you are right, that the attorney general has done the job he was hired to do. he has concealed immediately and put out a narrative that is dominating the stage and first out, has a very lasting impact. it's hard to undo first impressions. and so we need to really keep that in mind that he has done a huge favor just by delaying the results. even if they do come out. and i think that the democrats

in congress, adam schiff and all of the others, are definitely not going to rest until it is completely public and we all can read it. everything was made public in every other prior investigation. and so, let's see what happens. it did take nixon firing two attorneys general before he got to someone who would fire the special counsel. and we need to go back to the laws that came after that. so that the special counsel is more protected than currently exists. >> you know, paul, one of the challenges with what william barr did is that what's the point? of having a special counsel if the attorney general just going to decide, right? if the only person that's going to be able to see the special counsel's work is the partisan political appointee of the president, then no president could ever be held accountable by a special counsel. because essential list his roy cohn as you heard adam schiff refer to william barr, could end

the probe whenever he wants, or when it ends, draw what are principled conclusions he wants. he says in the barr report, below i summarize the principal conclusions set out in the special counsel's report. meaning he's telling you what the important things are that you need to know. then the only quotes in here, the only things in quotes are a truncated sentence that says the investigation, it looks like a lower-case t, now an upper-case t did not establish that the trump trump administration skpirs conspired, as far as he's concerned, case closed. >> when we get the full report we'll understand why he punted on the question of obstruction. he said he could not exonerate the president on obstruction, which means he has evidence that the president committed obstruction. he may have mitigating evidence as well. but it cannot be that it was just so hard to make the

decision about prosecution, that you threw up his hands and said -- even though i've got 20 of the best prosecutors and fbi investigators in the country, it's too tough for us. so why don't you decide, mr. attorney general? probably he intended for that evidence to go to congress. so that congress could decide whether it met the standard of high crimes and misdemeanors for impeachment. but again, as we keep saying, the attorney general then did the job that he was hired to do. he had called the obstruction investigation before he was attorney general, fatally misconceived and when that came up in his confirmation hearings, he back-tracked a little, saying i didn't have all the facts, i don't have all the facts about the russian investigation. joy now we know he didn't need the facts. all he needed was the opportunity to do the president's bidding. the president famously made that mistake about hiring sessions.

he didn't make that mistake when he hired bill barr. ? you know natasha bertrand, he's a very fast reader. he apparently went through 22 months of investigation, 400 some-odd pages, not including the notes, which could make it quite a bit longer and was able to quick, fast, conclude in four pages -- nothing to see here. the president has done nothing wrong. is there any reporting on why, having come to such a firm and fast conclusion, suddenly he's back-tracking and claiming that what he called a summary, it says "summary" here, summary of the principal conclusions, isn't even a summary. why is he so confident of whatever is in the mueller report. >> it's my understanding that the justice department did not expect the level of blow-back that it got. by releasing this four-page memo and i think that's also why it took around five days for us to even learn how many pages the mueller report actually was.

but i think that we have to go back to barr kind of stepping into this process in a way that might prevent congress from making its own decisions about the president's behavior. the special counsel regulations are kind of fatally flawed, because they were an over-correction from the starr era. no matter what people say about the appropriateness of barr stepping into this process and determining for mueller essentially whether or not the president was guilty of obstruction, that is what the regulations say. the regulations say that mueller has to provide this report to the attorney general unlike the independent counsel, ken starr, who had to provide all of his findings directly to congress. i think what we may see is perhaps a rewriting of the regulations here. to find some kind of middle ground between going directly to the a.g. and going to congress with the findings. because clearly this is not working. you can't indict a sitting

president, that's doj policy. but mueller was never going to do that. because you can't indict the sitting president, because you can't charge him with this, then of course the only recourse is to provide that evidence to congress. but the special counsel regulations prevent that. they make it so that the attorney general is that blockade between the special counsel and congress. i think that's something that we have to remember as well. but also this was a significant walk-back. i think from barr. it just shows that from people i speak to the way they perceived it was that this was a rushed letter that barr got the full report, and he rushed out in order to give the president that cover. and by doing so, he gave the president and his legal team the head start. what is significant, though, is that it does not seem or he has no plans according to the letter he sent to congress yesterday, like he's going to take the report to the white house and give them the benefit of scrubbing it for executive privileged material.

so bar said he will, the president has said publicly he would defer to the attorney general in that case. so that i think should put people at ease. knowing that the white house for now is not going to be able to see that report and redact the information that it wants to be redacted. >> we're relying on william barr's word for that? >> he said he has no plans to do that. i think that's the careful choice of words. and honestly, it would be quite surprising if the white house didn't try. but you know there's also the point that the white house may have already waived that executive privilege by giving information and witnesses over to the special counsel. in the first place. so it may be futile to even try. >> very quickly, jill, we learned with the clinton impeachment, the challenge was that if you had a majority of the other party determined to take down a president, you could simply use the independent counsel statute to go after them. you could start with whitewater and end with the sexual affair and get what you got there.

but on the other hand in this version, you wind up doing an entire investigation, putting in all that work with the finest prosecutors the country has to offer, right? all coming together and they hand it to the president's man. so there doesn't seem to be a proper constitutional means of holding a president accountable that doesn't either allow a true witch hunt or prevent a president from being held accountable. >> well, i agree completely with what natasha just said. it's what i was saying before. that we need to relook at the rules under which this independent counsel is operating. they aren't working. it was well intentioned, i'm sure. but it clearly has shown the defect in them. the, there have been three different ways of operating. the way that special prosecutor archibald cox was appointed. the way that the whitewater case proceeded. which obviously had a huge defect in the report that they

made. and then this one. we need to rethink it and go back to something better. >> i know what paul butler wants to say is congress, congress was different during the nixon era. you had republicans that were willing to live with whatever the result was of the special counsel investigation was until look at it, in a not, not in a part san way. but just in looking at it and that's not the way we have it now. thank you very much. coming up. donald trump's quest to have his new attorney general take to his next thing. which is erase obamacare. that should be great. that's next. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't.

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the republican party will soon be known as the party of health care. >> remember the republican obsession of getting rid of obamacare. remember the 50-plus votes republicans took in congress to try to get rid of health care. remember how their attacks on health care. they decided to give the ending obamacare one more go. and now he's found his roy cohn in his attorney general william barr.

donald trump has refused to defend the duly passed law against a suit by republican attorneys general that claims the entire affordable care act is unconstitutional. joining me is the opinion editor at "forbes" magazine. great to talk to you. >> this idea of donald trump through his attorney general william barr that they will jump all precedent and refused to defend a duly passed law. signed by the previous president, passed by congress. just because donald trump doesn't like it. i don't understand that as a political matter and i don't understand it as a policy matter. can you explain why that would be a good idea? 20 million people would lose their health care if this thing were to go through and be affirmed by the republican majority of the supreme court. why would that be a good idea? >> well i think the biggest issue is that the constitutional issue. which is that obamacare is a 1,000-page law with a lot of different provisions in it that have nothing to do with the

individual mandate. it's the individual mandate that's at issue in this particular litigation. ing the arguments of the lower courts, the attorney generals that are suing and now the trump administration is that the entire law should be overturned as unconstitutional if one believes the individual mandate is unconstitutional. it's not the position of anyone i know. it wasn't the opinion of the trump administration until a couple of days ago. that's the thing i'm most concerned about. is that we should be overturning large laws for flimsy reasons. let the congress repeal the law if it wants to. don't ask the supreme court to do your dirty work for you. the congress, this current congress, the republican congress has already undermined the individual mandate by making it so that people don't have to suffer the penalties. if congress didn't overturn the entire law and they were willing to go after the one piece of it, it does seem a strange legal

argument for people like josh holly, who was elected over senator claire mccaskill in missouri on the basis of this very thing. he was part of this lawsuit. these guys are determined to get rid of this law by any means necessary. since you and i agree that it's a strange thing to overturn laws because you don't like one piece of it, from a policy standpoint, donald trump is claiming republicans will be the party of health care if this goes through. that's the opposite. republicans were against any form of universal health care going back to fdr. the american people like having health care. as a policy matter, how does it make sense to try to go after this law? >> as it's been widely reported. and you talked about on your show, there was a lot of disagreement. there's a lot of disagreement among republicans as to this particular decision by the trump administration, to support overturning the entire law through the courts there are a lot of republicans who support universal coverage. who said on the record they want every american to have health insurance. i'm a person who has been advocating for that for ten

years for my entire career, in this line of work. so there are a people who want that. but there are a lot of people who disagree. if the republican party is to be the party of health care like the president wants, there's going to have to be a real agreement about that goal. the goal that every american should have that basic financial security of knowing -- >> but that's not the case. the republican party, the only agreement that we've seen among republicans in congress is that they want to overturn the affordable care act. they also wanted to get rid of medicare. ronald reagan argued it would be the end of the republic if they passed medicaid and medicare. republicans are four-square in the main against the idea of universal coverage. you may be for it, but you're in the minority in your parties, republicans do not believe that these things should happen. they creations of insurance marketplaces allowing people to have medicaid. there are governors elected now on the promise to not allow medicaid to be expanded in their states, and they are republicans. >> that's true. but there are also republicans fighting for universal coverage.

there's a congressman in the house from arkansas bruce westerman, that puts more money into health insurance. it does the things that would actually not only make health care affordable for those uninsured but for people who have coverage today, but are struggling to afford the premiums they're already paying. >> that's one guy out of 435 person. >> you got to start somewhere. >> can you name two? >> there's a guy named jim banks. >> that's two. >> i mean the reality -- i can name a lot of people. >> you can't count on the fact that republicans have voted more than 50 times attempt to repeal the affordable care act. do you think it's smart right now for this to be the next fight of your party? for the next fight to be to find a way to come up with some sort of alternative to the affordable

care act that will get all of the more than whatever, 200 some-odd members or almost 200 members of the party in the house, let alone mitch mcconnell put something on the floor. is that smart politically? >> what runs shouepublicans shos come up with a plan that insures that every american can afford health insurance. >> we agree on that. >> the affordable care act is not the only way to cover the uninsured, joy. >> but it's the law of the land. >> medicare for all would also repeal and replace obamacare. there are alternatives to the affordable care act as a method for covering the uninsured. some people like aoc and bernie sanders have one approach and people like me have another. >> i don't think they would repeal obamacare. >> they would. >> at least we agree on the legal matter and on it being a terrible idea. i think that's wonderful bipartisan agreement. thank you very much for being here.

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congress that our immigration system is at the breaking point. the breaking point has arrived this week at our border. cvp is facing an unprecedented humanitarian and border security crisis all along our southwest border. >> the number of migrants crossing the southern border reached near record highs this month with border officials saying they're on track to apprehend up to 100,000 migrants in the month of march alone. kirsten nielson is requesting new authority from congress to address what she calls the root causes of the emergency by allowing her to depart unaccompanied children faster and to keep families in detention until their asylum cases are decided. joining me former secretary of homeland security under president obama. secretary johnson this idea of kierstjen nielson putting up, the border apprehensions are up. can you see the red line at the

top. at the top is 2019. what do you make of the current homeland secretary's idea that ? >> well, first joy, that's for having me on. i lived with them month by month, day by day. we had that in 2014. there are ways to respond to this. one thing i would not do, which is secretary's letter to congress proposes is amending a law called the tbpra, in a way to make it easier and faster to send kids back to central america. we might be at the doorstep of another separating families at the border crisis, joy. the idea of sending a 7-year-old back to central america without due process is something that most americans should have a

serious objection to. there are other ways to deal with this situation right now. as kevin, the commissioner of cvp pointed out, on tuesday, there were 4,000 apprehensions, one day alone. we are on pace this month for 100,000 apprehensions. the highest we saw on my watch was 64,000. it's a crisis. there are ways to deal with it. there are answers. there are no easy answers. the one thing we should not do as americans is simply send a 7-year-old, an 8-year-old back to central america without due process. >> you know, the cruelty of the policies of the trump administration are meant to be a deterrent. it would deter people. it's the opposite. more people are coming. the crisis like in venezuela and

guatemala, they are coming despite what could happen if they get in the hands of i.c.e. and cvp. that seems, on its face, true. here is how the president of the united states is reacting to the idea more people are coming and seeking asylum in the united states. >> you have people coming up here. you know, they are all met by the lawyers. the lawyers, they come out and they are met by the lawyers and they say, say the following phrase, i am very afraid for my life, i am afraid for my life. okay. then i look at the guy. he looks like he got out of the ring. he is a heavyweight champion of the world. it's a big, fat con job, folks. a big, fat con job. >> i think we sort of have to force ourselves not to be surprised. when you have the president of the united states in front of an all white audience and mock

people, literally mock them for seeking asylum, i don't know what to make of it. what do you make of it? >> we have to remind the american people, with we created the asylum, the laws. they were implemented by the u.n. saying if someone comes into the border, by law, they get due process. this president wants to throw due process out the door. they start with the most vulnerable, then u.s. citizens. one reason this has been exasperated is when the obama administration faced a lot of the issues with unaccompanied minors, they created programs in the countries and be processed from there so they wouldn't have to make this journey. one of the first things they did is zero that item out. the same thing when it comes to the idea of trying to go across the border. the president and secretary

neilson decided they were going to close ports of entry, forcing people to go through more dangerous deserts and rivers and then present themselves, yes, they cross illegal lie and say i want asylum. they did it with metering. folks, again, completely legally, across the border, made them wait a couple days and weeks. we are seeing more, but some of it was its own doing by the trump administration. the question we have to ask ourselves as americans, if we want to make sure we want to mitigate what is happening at the border and we are protecting young children, what a better way to spend $21 billion on a border wall than investing it in home countries where it can go a long way and work on securing those countries in a way they won't have to make the treacherous journeys.

>> in addition to that, what the trump administration is doing is close the border and e ensshlly blaming mexico for what they are receiving is an inundation of migrants crossing to get and present themselves at legal ports of entry, changing when you were secretary of homeland security. you have lopez saying, hello, the problem is the united states. the problem is -- this is a problem of the united states with central american countries. it's not up to mexico. trump overlooks the mexican immigration efforts saying this is not mexico's fault. that's what trump is doing, threatening to close the border and threaten mexico. >> i'm going to repeat what i did on fox. you cannot close a border, a 1900 mile border. you don't have to be secretary of homeland to know this is

common sense. the president might have the legal authority to close ports of entry, bridges and so forth, but what you are doing is driving illegal migration away from the place they have been encouraging them to go and simply cross the land borders. we know less about people entering our country and it's really having an adverse effect on legal migration and legal commerce. mexico is one of the biggest trading partners. there's a lot of commerce that occurs on a daily basis on the u.s. side, on the mexican side. simply closing ports of entry will do a lot to hurt lawful immigration and lawful commerce. >> thank you very much jay johnson. thank you for your time. thank you guys. more after the break. thank you guys more after the break ♪ baby i'm not even in a gown ♪ and the only thing u have to say is wow ♪

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in a surprise, more important, we learn today a trump campaign volunteer adviser, george papadopoulos, admitted he was in touch with russians during the campaign, who said they had kremlin contacts and could offer dirt on hillary clinton, including thousands of e-mails. >> welcome back to am joy. in october of 2017, news of little known george papadopoulos guilty plea came as a surprise to everyone covering the russia

investigation. papadopoulos was the first to plead guilty in mueller's probe, the first to be sentenced and the first to be a member of having knowledge of interfering in the election while it was ongoing. it was papadopoulos's actions that triggered the investigation in the first place when he bragged to an australian diplomat that russia had dirt on hillary clinton. an investigation that led to 34 people being charged, seven guilty pleas, one conviction by trial and five sentencings. joining me now is former campaign adviser, george p papadopoulos, the author of "deep state target." great to meet you. i have read your book. it is very interesting. you walk back a lot of what i just said in the intro. a lot of what you pleaded guilty to and were sentenced to 14 days in jail, in prison? >> 11 nights.

>> 11 nights in prison. you served less time. >> yeah. >> let's go through it. >> sure. >> you were donald trump said a coffee boy, which you disputed. >> mica caputo said that and he was fired within a month of joining the campaign. the president never said that. >> you were a foreign policy adviser. >> yeah. >> one of the advisers to the president. donald trump, he did say he didn't know you, but you are in the room with him, pictures of you in the room. how did you get to be a foreign policy adviser with the campaign? >> good question. i was working at a think tank, then i went off to europe and i was advising in the middle east. i joined the ben carson campaign. i was working on a presidential campaign before i joined another one, then i joined trump's presidential campaign in march of 2016. >> how many face-to-face interactions did you have with the president? >> i had one face-to-face and

dealing primarily with the senior level. >> jeff sessions? >> jeff sessions, steve bannon, flynn. i was working until the transition. i had to write the book because there was such a misunderstanding of what i was doing and who i am. this book clarifies that. >> a lot of what happened with you centers around a professor. >> yeah. >> who is he and how did you meet him? >> that's a very important question. the old narrative was this was some sort of russian intermediary that i met and discussed hacked e-mails. the reality is, i met this individual through an fbi intermediary in london at a school in rome that david ignatius of "the washington post" has written about. i'm meeting with him, introducing me to the niece of vladimir putin. vladimir putin has no siblings.

it was entrapment to make it look like i was dealing with russians, which i wasn't. >> you were pursuing the conversations? >> i have been open, i wanted donald trump to meet vladimir putin. i told donald trump to his face at the round table, i'm going to do this for you. >> why did you think he needed to meet vladimir putin? >> politics is about optics. as a foreign policy adviser, my job was to do two things. that's why i met him one time, he was out campaigning, meeting people and voters, not dealing with foreign policy issues. >> if you were an adviser at the level of trying to make an arrangement with the president of russia, if you have only met with that person once, why are you the person that set up that meeting? >> i introduced him to the president of egypt. i did it through steve bannon. >> you were high level in the campaign? >> erg is relative.

i did what i did. whatever people think i did, it could be coffee boy or higher up. >> before you joined the ben carson campaign, what were your qualifications? did you have personal contact with foreign heads of states? >> yeah, i did. >> with who? >> personal contacts with the prime minister of greece, the president of cypress. >> how did you obtain those contacts? >> working in the think tank in washington, d.c. >> you are a young guy. you were in your late 20s, early 30s. >> yeah, i was precocious. >> you wrote, i underlined, almost everyone you met, you describe it as a jason bourn novel. they had ties to outfits. you allege in this book, almost everyone you spoke to was a part of what you describe as wide ranging conspiracy among u.s. intelligence agencies,

essentially the government of australia, high level diplomats all to go through you, individually you, to try to do what to you? >> look, i was one of four guys that, actually not guys, loretta lynch and sally yates were there. there were only four witnesses invited to discuss the abuse. it was papadopoulos,gates and comey. like you stated, high level operatives tried to go through me to try to undermine the campaign. >> why would they do that? >> they had their own agenda. these people were clearly bias against candidate trump. >> other people in the campaign like carter page, a lot of people wonder if he was compromised. >> i had my suspiciouses of him, too. >> steve bannon, jeff sessions. you had a lot of people there. you are alleging all these

agencies, high-level government agencies were targeting you? why would they target you? >> they did. there's evidence that proves that. stefan was paying money. >> they are picking you out of these people? >> that's exactly what they were doing. >> did they say to you that the russian government had dirt on hillary clinton? >> what he told me at the hotel in london in late april was the russians, i have been told, have thousands of hillary clinton's e-mails. it's as if he dropped a bomb on me and walked away to see what i would do with that information. that's where things became bizarre. my life, after that comment, my life became strange. i had intelligence officials from the israeli embassy reaching out, the australian embassy, the u.s. embassy, i am giving off the cuff remarks to london. there are targets on me. that leads me to meet alexander

downer. i, myself, let me make it clear to the viewers, i reported him to the fbi and bob mueller, myself. >> he was the australian high commissioner? >> yes. >> you, the thing that reportedly touches off the counter intelligence investigation into the trump campaign is you meeting with mr. downer in a bar. you said you weren't drinking. you had a gin and tonic. >> yeah. >> you tell him the russian government has dirt on hillary clinton. you now say you never told him that. >> i never told him that. i'll explain what i mean. if i told him that, the last thing people like mark meadows of devin nunes would be deploring the president to declassify my fisa file. the president stated he will. the australian government is asking president trump not to declassify that. if i said that, the last thing president trump's allies would

be asking them to do is declassify material that suggests i am talking to an australian diplomat. >> here is the trouble i have with that. i do appreciate you coming here. you are saying joseph told you -- >> he did. >> that the russian government had something, dirt on hillary clinton. >> yeah. >> this commissioner, alexander downer told intelligence services you told him that same thing. if you didn't tell him, where did he get it from? he couldn't have made it up and got it right that he told you that? >> not necessarily. >> how would he come up with that? >> that's a great question. as you will see in my congressional testimony that's been released, all 236 pages. he was not described to me as a friendly diplomat passing along information. he seemed to be, and i think congress knows, he was some sort of guy, a spy on me to sabotage

me and come up with an angle. why would the high commissioner target you? i'm not saying you are not an important person. donald trump says he doesn't know you. of all the people in the campaign, the foreign government officials are targeting you. somehow, the high commissioner of australia guesses that you know that joseph told you the russian government has dirt on hillary clinton. that's a hell of a guess. >> look at who the messenger is. joseph mitsfa. >> do you think he said that? >> it's plausible. whoever reads my testimony will believe congress has their suspicions of what went down with them. now, with australia trying to intervene in the fisa declassification process, i'm certain there's much more to the story than people have recorded. >> you admit there may be tapes, that perhaps they taped the

conversation. would it surprise you if, on that tape, you are telling him joseph told you the russian government, he presumably would have tapes of it? >> yeah. that's why i want that tape to be released. i know i didn't say that. i told congress, myself, i think he was taping. i told the fbi and mueller i think he was taping me. i'm all for transparency and the full mueller report to come out. lay out the cards and see who did something wrong and who did something right. >> you are thinking of withdrawaling your guilty plea for lying to the fbi about the conversations and asking for a pardon. >> yeah. >> when you were sentenced to 14 days, you served 11 days in prison, you said yourself, you want to distance yourself as much as possible and trump and the campaign from an illegal action or dangerous information. you told the judge, you were blinded by personal ambition and the thrill of being part of mr. trump's electoral victory. you attended an inauguration

event. you said i was surrounded by important people, i was young and ambitious and excited. you admitted to lying. you admitted you passed along to australian diplomat information saying there was dirt the russians had on hillary clinton. you admitted it to the judge. why would you withdrawal that? >> i never admitted to the judge anything about alexander downer, to be clear. when i pled guilty, it was much earlier than after i found a tremendous amount of information about my entire saga, this story. i went into a guilty plea blind without evidence presented to me. basically, it's a crime. >> the thing is, you either lied to the fbi or you didn't. if you pleaded guilty of lying to the fbi, you admitted you did it. whether or not high level people from all over the world were trying to target you, you lied or didn't. you pleaded guilty to doing

that. >> i have a great legal team that believes -- i'm not a lawyer. i don't want to get into legalities. maybe my lawyers can answer the questions better than i can. they believe there's a basis, before i went to prison. we were discussing withdrawaling the guilty plea. they feel there was a basis for withdrawaling it. they feel there's a basis for a pardon and applied for one. if i'm offered one, i would accept it. i have not reached out and asked for one. >> there's an application for a pardon. >> my lawyers are looking out for my best interests. with all the information that's come out, it should be granted. >> your defense attorney at the time you pleaded guilty or were sentenced, essentially said the blame, at least part of the blame for your lies were the fbi, the reason you were sentenced were to be blamed on

donald trump. this is a quote, the president of the united states hindered this investigation more than george papadopoulos ever could. the message is test your loyalty and tell the good guys. that's what your lawyer said about donald trump. you expect that after he said that. >> i take responsibility for my actions. like i said, they are lawyers, looking out for my legal interest. i don't impose blame on anyone. i did my time. i'm moving on with my life. i'm getting the truth out there. my name has been denigrated for so long. i want people to understand what happened and whether i end up getting back into government or do something else with my life. i'm going to let america decide. >> why do you suppose so many russian kremlin-linked people wanted to have contact with so many people in the trump campaign and why so many people in the trump campaign lied about

their contacts with russia. it's a hell of a coincidence if that was happening. why was that happening? >> every four years, the biggest event in the world is not the world cup, it's the presidential campaign and the campaign leading up to it. friends and foes are trying to intervene and undermine the process, to get an inside view of what policies might or might not come out. on the democratic side and the republican side. >> i don't think it's ever happened, ever, before in a democratic or republican campaign. >> foreign governments trying to intervene? >> at this level? >> hacking e-mails. technology is more sophisticated. >> and talking to everyone in the campaign, down to your level. >> look, everybody wants to foot in. if russia is responsible, i hope they are punished. i acknowledge what the u.s. intelligence community stated about them. look, leading up to my work with

donald trump, i was very hostile to russia. that's why this is bizarre that i'm the epicenter of a russia conspiracy when i was hostile toward russia in my work and policies with donald trump. i never met a russian in my life. that's why my story is fascinating. thank you for having me on. >> i thank you for coming. thank you so much for your time. >> donald trump doesn't want you to see congressman eric swallow on tv. that's why he joins me next. e j. ♪ limu emu & doug

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the findings of the special counsel refute past and present assertions and expose you to abuse your permission to knowingly give information. a matter consistent with your responsibility and urge your immediate resignation as chairman of the committee. >> the new favorite boogey man is adam schiff. the house republicans went after him asking him to resign over comments on the russia investigation. 24 hours after the barr report, his campaign sent a memo to tv producers that looks like an enemy list booking six trump critics. four democratic lawmakers who the campaign said made

outlandish false claims. noting public evidence, clearly seemed to point toward collusion. meanwhile, donald trump made more than 9,000 false claims. one of the four lawmakers on the list. congressman swallow, thank you for being here. >> of course, of course. good morning, joy. >> good morning. i spoke to george papadopoulos who was the first person to plead to be arrested or to be indicted in the mueller probe. i want to get your take. he did mention, on his way out of the studio, he is going to testify in front of the committee soon. he made a claim that i thought was extraordinary in the book. essentially, that he didn't tell the australian high commissioner that this professor, told him that russia had dirt on hillary clinton. but, then, i guess the high

commissioner just guessed it because it was the high commissioner who reported it to intelligence services and got the mueller, got the counter intelligence investigation going. what do you make of the claim that this australian just guessed he said that? >> i can't, joy, with this guy. it doesn't add up. it's never added up. the one thing i will accept he was telling the truth about is when he said, i'm guilty of lying to the fbi. to your point, how would this high commissioner know this information? but, more importantly, it was before anyone knew russia was hacking hillary clinton's e-mails. again, i don't understand. is he suggesting our intelligence committee knew russia hacked hillary's e-mails, didn't tell anyone about it and in this backwards way fed this to him? it doesn't add up.

again, by his own words, he thought it would be a good idea for his boss, candidate trump to meet with vladimir putin. you know where all these guys are coming from. they wanted us to be closer to the russians. >> that seems clear. there's a gaslight aspect to what the republicans are saying. they are going after your chairman, adam schiff. they are going after you. they are going after all the democrats that have been talking about this seemingly relentless campaign to get donald trump closer to vladimir putin and the kremlin down to talking to mr. papadopoulos who was not a high level member in the campaign. everyone was -- people were coming at them with offers to have clinton e-mails or to get trump closer to russia. is there an innocent explanation why this government is so intent on getting close to this one candidate? >> not a single, innocent expla mags. to step back a bit, this was not

the brits or mexican allies reaching out to a campaign. the starting point is this was a foreign adversary who, months before the campaign began invaded one of our allies, ukraine. that, itself, is suspect that they would draw themselves so close to an adversary. also, joy, when you read that barr opinion letter, that criminally clears donald trump. it doesn't say that there was no wrong doing or there's no counter intelligence concern. if they are going to throw a parade or believe that donald trump was nominated for the nobel peace price in that letter, they are missing a larger point. the best thing we can do is see the full contents of that mueller report to best protection ourselves from this happening again. >> if william barr refuses to release it unredacted, will the democratic leadership subpoena it?

>> yes. yes, the president is outnumbered now. the voters gave us, you know, a balance of power over abuses of power. they gave us subpoena power. we will subpoena it. we are confident, if we have to go to the courts, because of the judicial precedent that exists through watergate, that is also on our side, too. joy, frustratingly, we won't see it as soon as we need to or as much as the public would like to see it as we have more awareness to go into the 2020 election. >> congressman, sir, we saw donald trump's campaign, 2020 re-election effort, an enemy's list, you are on it. it's a strange thing to television producers. it says, moving forward, these are instructions to us. we ask that you employ basic journalistic standards when booking. does this guest warrant further

appearances given the claims in the past. i will not be shy about saying we reached out to each and every one of you guys and would have put you all on tv today. you all have different schedules and you were available to us. the idea you have a presidential campaign and sitting president instruct television producers who to book and who not to book, i don't know where that sits with you, sir, in terms of the first amendment, but i will get your thoughts. >> i'm not going away, joy. i love this country too much. i grew up seeing my parents work hard and free market and free speech and free ideas give their first born son the freedom to dream. if we draw close to russia, we are going to drift toward a system that's top floor economy and benefits only those on the top floor and the others get nothing and the rights we depend

on evaporate. i'm not going to let that happen. i'm going to stay loud. chairman schiff is going to stay loud. it's interesting the president who has been accused by "the washington post," an objective source of telling over 6,000 lies is going to tell the media who can and cannot come on tv. the only person who lied about russia is donald trump. if he wants to take me up on that, he can see me in court. he can sue me if he theys i'm making a false statement. i will win. thank you for your time. >> thank you. coming up, obamacare is more popular than donald trump. way more popular. that's why he wants to destroy it. that's next. e wants to destroy it that's next.

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okay. earlier in the show, we meant to play a soundbyte highlights donald trump's warnings about the russia probe and anyone who dares stand against him. unfortunately, we kind of played trump talking about how awesome his life is, his apartment is all gold, awesome apartment. here is the portion of the speech we meant to play. >> all of the current and former

officials who paid for, promoted and perpetuated the single greatest hoax in the history of politics in our country. they have to be, i'm sorry, they have to be accountable. >> you have to love a little awe thortarian in the morning. up next, trump goes against obamacare. trump goes against obamacare. ♪ make you're jaw drop drop say oh my drop drop drop ♪ ♪ make u say oh my god my drop drop ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop make u say oh my god ♪ ♪ and you never felt this type of emotion ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop drop say oh my drop drop drop ♪ ♪ make u say oh my god my drop drop ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop make u say oh my god ♪

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it's absolutely the case that health care was a big issue in the last election and i do believe it didn't work well for republicans. i don't think that's because we have opposed obamacare. i think it's because many republicans didn't have a good answer to how to deal with the very real problem of people with pre-existing health problems. >> guess what? republicans still don't have a good answer. donald trump says republicans will become the party of health care. mitch o'connell is not about to be played by the president. he says i look forward to what the president is proposing and what he can work out with the speaker. ouch. back with me, editor of "forbes" magazine and msnbc contributor from moveon.org. moveon was one of the organizations that really got out there and fought against the, what was it 58th or 51st

attempt to repeal the affordable care act. it went through the senate. only john mccain and one other republican opposed it stopping it from happening. what do you make of the fact republicans, because of their fidelity to donald trump have been steered right into what seems to be the worst possible political outcome? a fight over health care coming into an election. >> yeah, after they lost an election in 2018 because of health care. that was the number one reason why one of the number one reasons why democrats were able to take back the house because folks wanted them to protect health care. americans wanted them to protect people with pre-existing conditions. americans wanted them to lower the cost of health care. you saw democrats do that this week on tuesday, led by the speaker, nancy pelosi. they introduced legislation that do all those things and stop the damage that republicans have been doing. the death by a thousand cuts toward aca.

the funny thing, too, joy, republicans, as we know, it's called affordable care act. republicans are the ones that wanted to change it to obamacare because they wanted democrats to own it, to own obamacare. obama to own obamacare. he said, okay, fine, we own it. we are proud of this. by doing that, by continuously voting more than 50 times to repeal it and have nothing to replace it, they made obamacare popular. now, they have nothing to replace it. they are not working on anything. mcconnell and mccarthy are turning their backs on it. they are connected to this. there's no daylight between them and donald trump. they have taken this aca to court dozens of times. now, democrats are like, bring it on. yeah, okay, you want to talk about health care, let's do it. >> in the last hour, i thought it was very important that you stated that, you know, you object to the idea of trying to use the courts to do what they

couldn't do legislatively. i respect you said that. the republican challenge here is that they are on record, individual republicans as opposing the idea of imposing these mandates to provide pre-existing conditions protections. a lot of republicans say, no, if insurance companies want to charge more, why can't they do it. you have mike pence who sees the politics and may want to run for president say no, no, no, don't do this. he thinks it is a terrible idea to throw millions of people off insurance. he is saying it's a bad idea. donald trump is tripling down to the point where the point man he picked to be the point man is this guy, rick scott. the former florida governor, who ran as a tea partier on his opposition to the idea of obamacare full stop, who is for repealing it and who, when he was a health care executive, his

company was fined, i think the world record for medicare fraud, medicaid fraud and defrauding tricare, the military health care program. that's the point man. this does not seem wise. >> i think there are going to be a lot of people who pipe in on what the republican plan should be to reform the health care system from here. we mentioned in the last hour, joy, this bill from bruce westerman, the congressman from arkansas, the fair care act of 2019. the pelosi deal introduced last week spends $10 million a year to help people with pre-existing conditions to get affordable coverage through reshurns. the western bill is twice as much money to fund insurance to help people who are low income. >> you keep pushing this westman bill. how many co-sponsors does it have? >> he just introduced it a couple weeks ago. >> he is not the point man.

the point man is the guy i showed you, rick scott. you have the senate leader saying he's not interested in participating in this. this guy who, you know, one congressman, that's great he's for health care. he is not the one running point on this. it is mitch mcconnell and donald trump. let me go to -- i'll come back to you. let me go to maria. the things republicans are doing, there's a thing that he is saying, which i think is principle. we had this conversation about health care and i don't doubt his principles. the things they are doing is courts stopping republicans from doing. impose work requirements on medicaid. if you are poor and ill, trying to force them to go out to work. a different judge struck down efforts to make health insurance plans available and avoid the requirements of health care, saying it's illegal and they want to offer people bargain basement, gut bucket plans that don't cover anything, but they

are cheap. so, they are cheap so you are like, i have health care. you try to use it and it doesn't cover anything. it's outlawed by law. these are the things they are trying to emp lemt. >> the republicans have not been able to provide a proposal. this idea this congressperson doesn't have co-sponsors. this is dead on arrival. there's no alternative. the american people understand when they are trying to get hoodwinked. 20 million people have health care because of aca. the reason before aca that many americans were declaring brupgs is the lack of health insurance. there's not an american that recognizes the moment you take out health care from under them, pre-existing conditions, they become economically vulnerable. this is nonsense. the fact you have susan collins saying this might be overreach on the president's proposal, they want to pick and choose

when they don't want to be part of the checks and balances system designed. this is an example of it. they are okay when it comes to forfeiting the authority and funneling 20 billion dlarls to the wall and taking money out of the pentagon without oversight. this is nonsense. >> let's put that back up, again. the stakes of this are so high. there are people that were all, in my twitter feed the other day when the president announced he wanted bill barr, his attorney general to withdraw support for defending the law of what is a very out there lawsuit. it's way out there to say the whole law is unconstitutional. we are talking 21 million people's health care. 12 million adults who would lose medicaid coverage, who got the expansion. my kids are on my health insurance. they get to be on until they are 26 years old. it's something that saved a lot of young people from being

uninsured. medicare beneficiaries face changes. a lot of seniors harmed by having premiums immediately go up. 133 million americans who could lose protections from pre-existing conditions. not to mention the fact even if you don't have 7% of people who buy through the exchanges, who a lot of them don't like it. they don't like the exchanges. that's 7%. all of us who have insurance through our employer, the health screenings, ability to get health screenings. they affect millions, tens of millions of people. i wonder, what are the democrats going to do if this, you know, the supreme court is 5-4 republican. what if the law goes away? >> i want to be very clear about this. donald trump is the head of the republican party. what he is saying that he wants to kick off tens of millions of people off of their health care, without a replacement, period. this is what donald trump wants to do. he is using the department of

justice, which is independent, led by barr, doing all of his dirty work, clearly, to do this. this is obamacare, affordable care act is the law of the land. they are not arguing portions of it. they are saying they want it to be null and void. they want to repeal it entirely, something that is constitutional. look, in the past, joy, we had the u.s. supreme court stepped in, twice, led by john roberts to say, no, it is constitutional. we are not going to do it to obamacare, affordable care act. we are not going to repeal it or stop it. it is the law of the land. this is what we are going to see, again. i can't imagine, john roberts stepped in to not do this. >> yeah. >> i'm thinking it is going to happen a third time. i don't know how he gets through that. democrats have to continue to fight. >> we are out of time. i want to give you one more

time, is it roberts it is going to come down to? >> president trump, when he campaigned, campaigned on universal coverage. >> he wanlts to get rid of it. he said he wants to get rid of it. he said he is going to terminate it. he is going to terminate it. >> he campaigned on it. >> we have to go. he said he wants to terminate it. you have to look at what people do, not what they say. i ordered barr -- we have to go. thank you sorry. the clock got me. coming up, the best response. sorry. up, the best response sorry. look limu. a civilian buying a new car. let's go. limu's right. liberty mutual can save you money by customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh... yeah, i've been a customer for years. huh...

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an attempt to disguise the results of the russia investigation in trump's favor. the republican members trying t% stifle democratic investigations of the trump campaign and administration at all costs. but this week, current chair adam schiff fought back. >> my colleagues may think it's okay that the russians offered dirt and a democratic candidate for president as part of what was described as the russian government's effort to help the trump campaign. you might think that's okay.

my colleagues might think it's okay that when that was offered to the son of the president who had a pivotal role in the campaign, that the president's son did not call the fbi, he did not adamantly refuse that foreign help. no, instead, that son said that he would love the help of the russians. you might think it's okay that he took that meeting. you might think it's okay that paul manafort, the campaign chair, someone with great experience in running campaigns also took that meeting. you might think it's okay that the president's son-in-law also took that meeting. you might think it's okay that they concealed it from the public. you might think it's okay that their only disappointment after that meeting was that the dirt they received on hillary clinton wasn't better. you might think that's okay. you might think it's okay that when it was discovered a year

later that they lied about that meeting and said it was about adoptions, you8) might think i okay that the president is reported to have helped dictate that lie. you might think that's okay. i don't. you might think it's okay that the campaign chairman a presidential campaign would offer information about that campaign to a russian oligarch in exchange for money or debt forgiveness. you might think that's okay. i don't. you might think it's okay that that campaign chairman offered polling data, campaign polling data to someone linked to russian intelligence. i don't think that's okay. you might think it's okay that the president himself called on russia to hack his opponent's e-mails if they were listening you. might think it's okay. that later that day in fact the russians attempted to hack a server affiliated with that campaign. i don't think that's okay.

you might think that it's okay that the president's son-in-law sought to establish a secret back channel of communications with the russians through a russian diplomatic facility. i don't think that's okay. you might think it's okay that an associate of the president made direct contact with the gru through goosifer 2 and wikileaks that is considered a hostile intelligence agency. you might think that it's okay a senior campaign official was instructed to reach that associate and find out what that hostile intelligence agency had to say in terms of dirt on his opponent. you might think it's okay that the national security adviser designate secretly conferred with a russian ambassador about underminesing u.s. sanctions and you might think it's okay he lied about it to the fbi. you might say that's all okay. you might say that's just what

you need to do to win. but i don't think it's okay. i think it's immoral. i think it's unethical. i think it's unpatriotic. and yes, i think it's corrupt. and evidence of collusion. now, i have always said that the question of whether this amounts to proof of conspiracy was another matter. whether the special counsel could problem beyond a reasonable doubt the proof of that crime would be up to the special counsel and i would accept his decision and i do. he's a good and honorable man and he is a good prosecutor. but i do not think that conduct criminal or not is okay. and the day we do think that's okay is the day we will look back and say that is the day america lost its way. and i will tell you one more thing that is apropos of the

hearing today. i don't think it's okay that during a presidential campaign mr. trump sought the kremlin's help to consummate a real estate deal in moscow that would make him a fortune, according to the special counsel hundreds of millions of dollars. i don't think it's okay that he concealed from the public. i don't think it's okay that he advocated a new and more favorable policy towards the russians even as he was seeking the creme lip's help to make money. i don't think it's okay that his attorney lied to our committee. there's a different word for that than collusion. and it's called compromise. and that is the subject of our hearing today. >> five minutes that succinctly explained the last three years. coming up, alex witt has the latest from the 2020 campaign trail. but first, more after the break. ♪

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