good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, april 10th. joe has the morning off. along with willie and me, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. anything going on in the sports world, mike? nothing? >> keep moving on. >> really? bad? >> move along. >> oh, god. here we go. >> getting serious at fenway. >> very bad. we don't want to talk about it. >> okay. well, then we won't. historian, author of "the soul of america," and professor at vanderbilt, john is here, msnbc contributor. white house reporter for the "associated press," jonathan lamere is here. former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele is with us. >> talking about those nats. >> oh, nats? >> they won yesterday. >> yeah. >> nats won. >> she doesn't know what a nat is. no "g."

>> gnats. okay. former attorney for the district of alabama, joyce vance is with us. so much to get to, including the college cheating scandal. what is making news? let's talk about it. prosecutors are piling up the charges against wealthy parents accused of cheating their kids' way into college. it is not just fraud now. it's also money laundering. plus, bernie sanders made money off his book deal, actually a lot in the eyes of some of his supporters. what his soon to be released tax returns mean for his presidential campaign. there is a fascinating front page story in the "the new york times" this morning, "why liberals on twitter don't speak for the quiet majority of democrats." this is what we were talking about, willie, with the biden story. blue check marks on twitter were all up in arms, but america, they see him as a nice guy. they don't understand what all the fuss is about. there's so many stories like

that, where you can get caught up in twitter if you're a dem, and you can find yourself misleading your own campaign efforts. >> yeah. it is a really good piece on the front page. we'll talk about it later, but it sort of gets to the echo chamber that, frankly, a lot of us live in. an issue that is small appears large because it is right in front of you. let's start with attorney general william barr, who will testify before the senate appropriations committee this morning after yesterday being in the house. the redaction is, quote, going very well. he stood by his decision to withhold an unknown amount of its material from congress. >> my original timetable of being able to release this by mid-april stands. i think from my standpoint, by -- within a week, i will be in a position to release the

report to the public. we intend to redact information that implicates the privacy or reputational interests of peripheral players, where there is a decision not to charge them. we will color code the excisions from the report, and we will provide explanatory notes describing the basis for each redaction. >> will we have the complete report, or are you going to be select i haive as to what you g members of congress? >> the unredacted report? >> mm-hmm. >> no. as i said, i'm glad to talk to chairman nadler and chairman graham as to whether they feel they need more information and see if there is a way we could accommodate that. it is interesting because this whole mechanism for the special counsel, as i said, was established during the clinton

administration, in the wake of ken starr's report. that's why the current rule says that the report should be kept confidential. many of the people who are right now calling for release of this report were basically castigating ken starr and others for releasing the starr report. i have already said that i think the situation here requires me to exercise my discretion to get as much information out as i can. >> in his testimony, attorney general barr seemed to dare house judiciary committee chairman nadler to issue a subpoena for the full report and underlying materials, to which nadler reacted this way. >> are you intending to go to court to ask for guidance and/or direction and/or an order where you are uncertain whether you can, in fact, release or should, in fact, release materials? >> i mean, the chairman of the judiciary committee is free to go to court if he feels one of

those exceptions is applicable. >> it is your right to ask. what is your intention? >> not to ask for it at this stage. >> congress has need of the entire report, including the grand jury material, including all the -- anything. including everything. i presume we're going to get the redacted report within a week. when we do so, if we don't get everything, we will issue the subpoena and go to court. >> joyce vance, let's start with you on this and your impressions, generally, of attorney general barr's performance yesterday. he says he's going to have this report out within a week. i think you probably agree, as a prosecutor, there are elements of the report that should be redacted, classified material, perhaps secret grand jury material, things like that. what concerned you as you listened to attorney general barr, if anything? >> there's a really important distinction we need to draw here, and that's between the version of the report released

to the public and the version of the report that becomes available to congress. you know, barr is focused almost exclusively in his testimony yesterday morning on getting a heavily redacted version of the report out to the public. as you suggested, i would agree, publicly, we don't want to see a broad release of grand jury without a court order. we don't want to see evidence that could implicate national security being publicly released. we don't even want to necessarily see public made information about folks who were considered as targets but not indicted. that's the public release. the release to congress is an entirely different story. congress is entitled to a broader dissemination of information. in fact, they have to have that information, including grand jury, including national security, so that they can fulfill their oversight function and make the decision that bob mueller appears to have left to them. the attorney general, who sort of committed to transparency during his confirmation

hearings, at least in a broad sense, really walked that back yesterday. i think it'll ultimately be unsatisfactory in terms of both the term that's released publicly and clearly in what goes to congress. >> all right. jonathan, you have new reporting for the "associated press" that trump's victory lap over the mueller probe may have been just a little bit premature. now, with the full report likely to be released in the coming days, fears among trump allies are growing. are they stepping up their attacks sort of to get ready for this, to brace people for it? >> right. what we've seen here is when barr put out his summary, four-page letter two weeks ago, the white house and trump allies seized upon it. it was a deliberate attempt to try to frame the story, get ahead of it, to spin it their way. we saw a few days later, the president had a campaign rally in michigan where he opened with a 15-minute screen, saying he had been cleared, used the phrase, total exoneration, which the report doesn't use, and he

used it to pound his adversa adversaries. what has happened since, fears have grown among trump allies, republicans on the hill, about what else is going to be in this report. 400 odd pages. stuff that's not going to be redacted. perhaps it is not going to rise to the level of criminality, but it could be potentially embarrassing and politically damaging him and those close to him in the white house, as well as perhaps his family members. we've gone from trump the day after the barr summary, calling bob mueller an honorable man, conducted himself in honorable fashion. we have seen the attacks step up again, whether on twitter. rudy giuliani told me he's ready to open fire again on mueller. they want to attack. they have been and will continue to attack the credibility of the investigators to undermine the conclusions. >> here we go. michael steele, politically for democrats, what's the risk that they overplay their hand here? there could be a slow and

methodical and consistent effort to see the entire report, but isn't there a risk again to overplay? >> there is. that's always sort of the edge that the democrats find themselves walking on, the measure to which they, you know, ramp up hearings, the measure to which they go after getting the mueller report. look, they have the public behind them on this. the public wants to see this report released, as much of it as possible, as has already been pointed out. they have, under the current situation, current laws, the opportunity to see a broader report than the one we may see here in the public as part of their oversight. so play to that strength that they have. one, the american people behind them for the release of the report. two, what they're entitled to in their oversight function. there is no need to start throwing around subpoenas loosely or giving the impression that they're creating a drama around something that may not be

as dramatic in the end. >> it is interesting that the attorney general raises the specter of trying to compare the starr report to the mueller report in his testimony yesterday, when the differences between both reports, the subject matter of both reports is striking. >> it is striking. it is also -- one similarity could be, could be, that neither would be an extra lost chapter in profiles in courage, right, to say the least. as president kennedy used to say, there was a republican profiles in courage was one volume. there's not a lot of examples out there. there is no question, this is going to be politically embarrassing. i mean, again, it is not going to be the sign of -- this is not going to be a story about how donald trump stood up and said, no, i shall not receive any help from russia because i am an

american. that's not going to be there. so the underlying story, one of the things that will happen is everybody is going to jump on that. the central story, which i think is behind your question, is that this is a foreign power that has successfully projected soft power to affect our decision making. why it is, someone said today probably already for the 7,000th time, why it is the party of reagan, did so much to end the cold war, has become so acclimated to russian advances in power and interfering with our elections, is one of the great mysteries of the age. >> well, president trump says he's not cleaning house at the department of homeland security. a department with its entire leadership serving in an acting capacity. last night, secretary kirstjen nielsen, who leaves today, which is about as abrupt as it gets

for a person at the top -- >> i've stood in tsa lines that are longer than that. >> good lord. >> trucks lined up at the border right now for a day or two to cross through, taking longer than secretary nielsen gave notice. >> she's out of there. literally the roadrunner. confirming rumors though that the acting deputy secretary, cla claire grady, revealing she is leaving, as well. good lord. confirming legal hurdles for the new acting secretary, mcaleenan. trump rejected the idea that something major is under way. >> should you be cleaning house at dhs? what would you like to achieve with new leadership? >> i never said i am cleaning house. we have a lot of great people over there. we have bad laws. we have a judge that just ruled incredibly that he doesn't want people playstaying in mexico. we have the worst laws of any country anywhere in the world.

we're bucking a court system that never, ever rules for us. our job could be so much easier. i think kevin is going to do a fantastic job. he is acting but i think he is going to do a fantastic job. we're not doing anything very big. >> meanwhile, a senior administration official tells "the new york times" the trump administration plans to aggressively push for tougher screening of asylum seekers, making it more difficult for migrants fleeing persecution in their own countries from winning protection in the united states. president trump ordered the recent shakeup of his top immigration officials because they were moving too slowly or even obstructing the president's desire to confront the surge of migrants at the southern border. the official telling the "times" the asylum changes are among many policies the president wants to put into effect with his new team in place. denials for asylum seekers has been on the rise. "washington post" notes it could be because jeff sessions said

victims of domestic violence and gang attacks generally would not qualify for asylum, an issue that is being litigated in federal courts. while speaking to reporters yesterday, president trump denied that the changes would include restarting the family separation policy, but he argued that that had been effective. >> obama separated the children, by the way. >> would you consider doing it again? >> just so you understand, president obama separated the children. those cages that were shown, i think they were very inappropriate. they were built by president obama's administration, not by trump. president obama had child separation. take a look. the press knows it. you know it. we all know it. i didn't have -- i'm the one that stopped it. president obama had child separation. now, i'll tell you something, once you don't have it, that's why you see many more people coming. they're coming like it's a picnic because let's go to disneyland. >> you're not going to bring it back? >> we're not looking to do that,

no. >> jonathan, first of all, that is flatly untrue, that president obama -- the obama administration did not begin the family separation policy. some of the photographs of families in cages and fences were from the obama years, but they didn't have the family separation policy explicitly, the way president trump did. what is going on in the white house right now? there was the "wall street journal" quote a couple of days ago where president trump turns to stephen miller and says, you're in charge now, of immigration. >> miller's influence here is on the rise. there's no question there. i mean, he all along has been in a mind medicld with the preside. he came over from formerly working with jeff sessions. he has been the architect of what the president wants to accomplish. president trump is frustrated that not as much as he wants has gotten done. he sees the numbers of crossings continue to go up. he pushed for the family separations policy, something he believed was effective. one of the reasons secretary nielsen is about to be former

secretary nielsen is because she argued with him that the law was not on their side for some of these. they could not necessarily separate the families. they could not close the borders. there would be economic impact there, as well. he has grown frustrated and has been goaded on behind the scenes by stephen miller. they decided it is time for a change. they said family separations, officials say it is not necessarily coming back to a policy, but a modified version thereof could still be in play in the weeks ahead. they could return to that. certainly, the asylum seekers is something they want to change currently. three quarters of asylum seekers currently in the united states qualify. they want to make it harder to show conditions in your home country is dangerous. >> immigration is so difficult, and obviously these policies have been devastating to families and to people who believe in what this country is

about. but in that press availability with reporters, the president in the course of a minute blamed, untruthfully, obama for the separations, for the cages. he lied to the american people. then he said the separations work. then he said he was the one who ended it so he could take credit for ending something that is terrible. then he went back to saying they actually work. it was his administration, john kelly, kearsen nielsen, jeff sessions. they threatened people, saying your children will be taken away from you if you come to this country. this is trump's policy that was executed by trump's people. there is no question about that. he wants to lie again about barack obama, he can do that, but he is lying again to the american people. it is stunning every time it happens. there is no way this is going to get easier to see happening in the white house. having said that, joyce vance, there's also a lot of legal challenges to the children that

were already separated from their families. looking at the policies ahead, i think legally, this could be a nightmare, as well. and, by the way, it's a policy that's springing more people toward the border. >> it's absolutely terrible policy. a lot of bad factors combined to increase immigration. the president just thinks that by threatening to take kids away from their parents, he can shut it down. we know there are a lot of factors, including conditions in home countries that influence this influx of immigration. and the administration, the president is right about one thing, that's that he can't seem to win an immigration battle in the courts these days, and that's because he is lined up squarely against the law. it is, i think, horrific to contemplate where we will be going forward. he has fired a dhs secretary essentially because she told him she would not violate the law. she was willing to do everything else. she was willing to implement border separation between parents and kids. she was willing to go the whole

nine yards with him, just not violate the law. by firing her, he signifies he is looking for a new set of leaders at dhs, ones who will be willing to implement his ongoing vision which involves conflict with the law. the president believes he does not have to comply here. >> michael steele, you could hear, just in the remarks the president made yesterday, his affinity for the family separation program. >> you're right. >> he said, well, it works. >> right. >> it started under obama. it didn't start under obama. it was a pilot program under the trump administration two years ago, and this time last year, it became policy. jeff sessions said explicitly it is being used as a deterrent to keep people from coming to the border. >> yeah, the whip sawing back and forth, as mika pointed out, was mind numbingly amazing to listen to in the course of the minute. the president will tell you what he really wants and what he believes. in that minute, he did. he told us he likes this family separation policy.

he does not like the fact that he has judges telling him what he can't do. and a homeland security secretary who was telling him what he can't do. he wants people around him who will execute his orders. it's that simple. this is not overly complicated, folks. he wants people around him who will execute his orders. he doesn't care if they're acting or permanent, as long as they do the job. he continues to hit this drum for a simple reason. with all the other stuff royalinroyal i ing, all the narrative is out there, with barr and others, so this is the perfect distraction from that. he will continue to beat this drum for as long as he is capable of doing it. he wants people to help him beat that drum. when nielsen stopped helping, she was out the door. other stories we're following this morning. the eu is holding an emergency session in prusz brussels to de the fate of the uk following years of brexit chaos.

either to grant another extension or to follow through with friday's deadline with no deal in place. reports now show that france may be on the fence in granting an extension. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu appears set to be reelected to a fourth consecutive term in office and fifth overall. near complete results show netanyahu's likud party with a narrow victory. it was seenerendum on netanyahu. if results stand, he'd be the longest serving leader in israel's history. it's not all in the clear for him though. israel's attorney general recommended indicting netanyahu on a host of corruption, bribery, and fraud charges. netanyahu has called the investigation a witch hunt. >> hmm. >> meanwhile, his likud party confirmed it hired and gave hidden cameras to 1,200 poll station observers, claiming it

was an effort to expose voter fraud. hidden cameras have been captured in several israeli-arab towns, and several people have been detained, surrounding an effort to hide a camera in an attempt to disqualify one polling station. secretly recording in polling stations is illegal in israel. new york city, front page of the "new york daily news," the mayor saying, get your damn shots. the health commissioner signed a mandatory vaccination order requiring 200,000 people who live and work in williamsburg, brooklyn, and do not have evidence of immunity, to be vaccinated within 48 hours. the move is the first time the city imposed mandatory vaccinations. the decision comes after city officials announced a public health emergency over the measles outbreak that has diagnosed 285 cases since october. that's the city's largest outbreak since 1991. residents who flout the mandatory order may receive forcible vaccinations on a case

by case basis. violators will face a fine of $1,000. >> wow. we need to look into that more. ahead on "morning joe," senator chris coons joins the conversation. plus, congresswoman lauren underwood is back with us. also with us, former presidential candidate, carly fiorina. and an update on the legal developments in the college cheating scheme. over a dozen parents have admitted their guilt, but dozens of others have not. what it means for the next step in this scandal. first, let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> travel in the middle of the country, difficult to almost impossible over the next couple days. talking denver to minneapolis and everywhere in between. we have a major winter storm. this will be a blizzard this time tomorrow. we are going to be watching winds up to 60 miles per hour and up to 2 feet of snow in some areas. biggest snowstorm of the winter for some of the places. 15 million people at risk. we have six states with blizzard warnings from colorado to minnesota. many other areas have winter

weather advisories and storm warnings. this is the snow footprint, how much snow will be on the ground. it goes from michigan to the northern plains, back to the rockies. it is this area in the pink and the red, this is where we go historic. the pink is 18 inches of snow. the red is 24 inches. from southern minnesota right through south dakota, i mean, interstate 90 is going to be one or two days closed with the blizzard conditions throughout the region. on top of that, we have high winds. people lost power in los angeles last night, 30,000 people. high winds will continue today. even yesterday, we had a dust storm warningit'll be rain not eastern seaboard by the upcoming weekend. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. the follow up cat scan showed that it had gone to her liver. we needed a second opinion. that's when our journey began with cancer treatment centers of america. one of our questions was,

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federal prosecutors have

piled on more charges against 16 wealthy parents embroiled in a sweeping college admissions scheme. actress lori loughlin and her fashion designer husband are among the defendants charged with money laundering in addition to conspiracy to commit mail fraud and wire fraud. the two are accused of paying upwards of $500,000 to secure their two daughters' admission to the university of southern california on phony athletic scholarships. the latest charge alleges the group of parents funneled money from outside the u.s. to a fake charity for the, quote, purpose of promoting the fraud scheme, according to the court documents. in return, more than two dozen lawyers for the prominent parents accused prosecutors of judge shopping to get their client's cases in front of a judge with a tough sentencing. the judge called it, quote,

procedurally inappropriate and disingenuous. it dcomes a day after 14 defendants, including felicity huffman, pleaded guilty to a separate charge leveled against them. joins us is attorney dave erinburg. why wouldn't loughlin take the choice or take the path that felicity huffman and other parents took, which is figure out a deal? doesn't she face a good amount of jail time? >> she could. she faces up to 40 years in prison, although she scores a lot less. the feds would keep it close to the vest, as to whether they've offered a plea deal. the cases are very different. in the case of huffman, we're talking about a payment of $15,000 to rig her daughter's s.a.t. in the case of lori loughlin, she and her husband are accused of paying $500,000 to get their daughters, their two daughters,

into usc through a whole ruse with the crew team, though they've never participated in it. olivia is ani online influencer says she doesn't care about school, rather be filming than go to class. it is the let them eat cake mentality that could irk federal prosecutors. could be a reason there has been no plea deal yet in the case. >> it appears felicity huffman will not actually serve time in prison because of the deal she struck. what is the likelihood though, because of the scope that dave laid out, of lori loughlin actually sitting in a prison cell? >> what will drive her sentence will be the dollar amount of the money laundering that she's involved in. money laundering carries tough penalties. because she's using $500,000 or will be accountable for $500,000 in fraud, her guideline sentence, we know that that's the sentence defendants actually serve as opposed to that 40 year

statutory maximum that we look at, the guidelines will still be significant. she could spend upwards of a decade in federal prison. >> wow. >> if everything goes as far as the prosecution seems intent on going. >> so, dave, let me ask you to put on a defense counsel's head on for a second. $15,000 in one case. $500,000 on another. isn't it the intent rather than the amount that's at the crux of this thing? >> well, when it comes to sentencing guidelines, the amount is really important. another thing is showing remorse. i mean, at the last hearing, lori loughlin was signing autographs, waving to supporters, all smiles. that's not going to endear herself to federal prosecutors. compare that to felicity huffman, who wrote a very long letter of contrition, asking for forgiveness. that's the kind of thing that could get her a better deal and could win her in the court of public opinion, where she could

restart her acting career after this is all over. i suspect the next time we see aunt becky, she'll be a little more contrite. >> john meacham. >> professor. >> doctor. >> prominent university. >> the deference you give me is -- >> it's a stretch. >> yeah. >> honestly, what do you guys -- talk about this, this has to be stunning. >> for the record, no one has ever offered me any money. >> no? >> i will say this, i am more popular among our old new york friends the day the weightless comes out. hey, how's memphis? by the way, you know. that's the extent. i think it is incredible. it is a sign -- we have a kid two years out from all this. you've dogone through it. barnicle's grandkids are going through it at this point.

>> okay. >> only six months okay. >> it is a yes dentu-- you knows cries out for a novel. >> we have seven children. a lot of the case, several aspects, shocked me. the thing that shocked me the most was the s.a.t. bag job, where you get someone in the room, one-on-one, to correct your college board. >> s.a.t. >> this is -- >> if i had known about that -- >> so when i was in high school, it was the beginning of you could get s.a.t. prep classes. >> yeah. >> right. >> i had a buddy who drove to atlanta, 100 miles away, because they were in a hotel ballroom or something. then princeton review comes along. it's been this 30 year arms

race. this is the opposite of merit. this is about this credential privilege. >> it is horrific. dave, i know norms are being stretched in the age of trump, but the reaction to this has been an overall kind of gut-paren gut gut-wrenching, this is horrific. i wonder if the sentencing for these parents and for the -- those who were behind sort of designing this scheme could be a little tougher than perhaps something of equal merit. it just seems like the reaction across the board to this is so unbelievably negative. i wonder if the public interest in it or even just the judges themselves, their gut reaction, is beginnigoing to be to go tou >> federal prosecutors read the news like the rest of us. they're aware of public opinion. there is also a thing called first in, first to win. the first defendants who take the deal would get the best deal, like felicity huffman.

that's why it doesn't bode well for loughlin. no remorse so farc. no deal. tough times may be ahead for her. what would be the deterrent in the future if you just go after the parents? could be future cases against the children if they acted in furtherance of the conspiracy. it is not enough to expel a kid from a school they didn't belong in in the first place. maybe the deterrent in the future would be filing charges, depending on the facts, against the children, as well. >> rough. >> mika, to your point, the precedence of this case has to do, i think, with the widening income disparities in this country, the widening class disparities in this country, and it is all packaged into this one story. >> yup. >> your son or daughter is trying desperately to get into, say, a state school, because it is more reasonable in terms of tuition. still outrageous but reasonable. and this, just plunking down

$500,000 to get your kids into college. >> not good. >> it is the rare non-trump white house story that has broken through, that we're talking about on cable news, you see in the newspaper, that people are talking about. >> people made the point that, you know, the classic, we'll build you a gym if we get in. kids with go to the gyn. >> the old fashioned way. >> making old fashioned bribery look good. >> there are elements of privilege that are legal and have nothing to do with this case that will persist, which is, your kid or my kid or your kid someday will be able to take an s.a.t. prep class from the time they're a sophomore in high school. these are privileges and advantages that are always going to be there. dave and joyce, thank you very much. still to come, rust belt will they turn out in 2020? that conversation is ahead on

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we have to win wisconsin, michigan, probably for sure. i think we should win pennsylvania, meaning we have -- i'm not saying it is a must win, but i'll just say, for now, we have to win pennsylvania. we're likely to have a battle in arizona, which is new for the republican party. i think we have to be very careful in georgia. >> that was former trump white house chief of staff and rnc chairman reince priebus, saying president trump needs to win the midwest to be re-elected. joining us now, ron fournier, the president of true scott rossman, a detroit-based pr firm. also with us, senior adviser at move on.org and msnbc contributor. good to have you both. ron, we're looking at what's happening in places like

michigan and if trump should have the support he used to have. it is hard to tell, if you read twitter, or if you look at social media. "the new york times" points to this today, you get a skewed view of what's really happening across america and in these key states for trump. >> yeah. if you look at twitter, if you look at the polls, you think this is over and there is no way trump could get re-elected. you live in my town, north of 8 mile road to mccomb county, a county that is quintessential swing country, the old reagan democrat country, twice voted for barack obama, then voted 11 points for donald trump. in november, voted by three points for a democratic governor, whitmer. this is a county filled with voters who want more than anything change and disruption. they're tired of the political system. they're tired of scandals that you had on before the break. they're tired of politics as usual. if you talk to -- and i

recommend you have him on one day -- the executive of mccomb county, democrat who voted for bernie sanders, he'll tell you the key is who the democrats nomina nominate. if they don't nominate someone who will take on the democratic party, if nthey vote someone in line with the democratic party, they have to nominate someone like donald trump, who took on his party. democrats have a have someone promising a new way. big change in politics. >> it reminds me when biden was with us at the bar in philadelphia. it was in the heat of hillary clinton's campaign. he said they're not remembering people like us. he was pointing to myself but talking about white guys from scranton, pennsylvania. across the board, the party not remembering to be all inclusive. >> ron is exactly right. part of our mission in the media, especially everyday print

reporters who are out there trying to cover the country, trying to cover this campaign, is if you stop and ask someone at a gas station or at a bakery, a coffee shop, what they think, they are not on twitter. they're going to tell you what they think. it is beginnigoing to be differ think, than what we see in the polls, a bit maybe. what i want to ask you, ron just said it is going to be up to the democratic party to nominate someone who will take on his or her party. what did you glean from that? what do you think about that theory? >> yeah. i think that is correct. i want to step back for just one moment. we have to remember that donald trump won with the smallest of margins in across three states. you know, we talk about his racist rhetoric and his racist policies. he won despite of that, not because of that but despite of that. the reason i bring this up is people really wanted him to shake things up. they were worried about their

wages, about their plant in their state. they were worried, you know, about health care. they wanted somebody who could come in and say, hey, we're going to save your jobs. what he ended up doing was, he had this trade war, which hurt many people in these states that we were talking about. michigan, wisconsin, ohio, pennsylvania. his tax cut for the wealthy, it is hurting many people. people are now about to put in their tax returns and realizing they're either going to owe more or get back less or get back nothing. those are the things we have to remember. he's underwater in a lot of those states. yes, getting to your question, democrats n s need to do a coup things. like mika said, we need to be inclusive. we need to talk to white working class and not forget them, but we also need to talk to everybody else. there were more than 40% of the voting electorate that stayed home. stayed home on 2016. did not come out. that's our base. many of those were our base. we didn't excite them. we did not inspire them. they did not come out to vote. i think it is like, we have

to -- i'm going to quote stacey abrams for a second, we have to walk, chew gum, and snap our fingers, something she said on your show last week. we have to be able to talk to white working voters. we have to be able to talk to african-american, latinos, millenials, everyone. we can talk about issues affecting everyone across the board. that's what we need. we need a candidate that can do that, inspire, talk about the issues, show a clear vision for not just the party but this country, and show that contrast against donald trump. >> michael steele, boy, the field is so big. how concerned should democrats be that they'll make the same mistake all over again? >> they should be very concerned as this field grows. the breadth of the dialogue, the conversation also expands. you can see the conflict setting itself up very, very appropriately. you have the bernie sanders

wing. you have the, you know, biden wing. you've got these forces that are aligning and realigning themselves. i want to go back to ron and the point that you raised. i think you're absolutely right about, you know, the guy down the street, down the road a bit. the question is really how do you reconcile this? how do democrats reconcile these emerging, competing voices? yeah, you have to talk to everyone, but the message is different for everyone. donald trump was able to synthesize it, personalize it, to emote about it in a way that i think is more complicated for democrats. am i missing something there, or do you think that's a bit of a challenge? >> i don't think it has to be. if you understand what it is, what is the one uniting thing between obama and trump in places like mccomb county? it is change. it's the public's demand,

desire, the hunger for change. you can talk to all those constituencies, exactly how you're talk about, but touch them in the place where, whether you're an african-american living in detroit or you're a white uaw member living in mccomb county, one thing you have in common is you hate politics as it is now. you can't trust your institutions. colleges are selling you out. prieste preachers are selling you out. what trump did, like obama did in a different way, they promised, we're going to shake up the system. if a democrat can do that in a way that doesn't alienate a part of the population, but speaks to people's desire to have a new way in america, they will beat donald trump. you have to out-disrupt the disrupter. >> wow. >> to your point -- >> good way of pointing it. >> -- winning the midwestern states are turning out white working class voters, but it is about turning out young and minority voters in places like milwaukee, detroit,

philadelphia, pittsburgh. the trump campaign is well aware how much they need the midwestern states. what they're struggling to do though is find places where they can expand the map. there has been some discussion of virginia, perhaps minnesota. in terms of the democrats looking, are there places they feel they need to play defense for states hillary won last time but might need to make a foray into this time around? >> i think that's a really good question. i think it's one of those things where we have to win back the blue wall, right? we have to win back michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. we have our convention in pennsylvania. there is an awareness we need to take that back. it's clear. north carolina we lost. we have to take back florida. there is a conversation about maybe as might be in play. so there is the kind of strategy of how do we get to 270? we have to also look at what happened in 2016, as well. i mean, all of this is based on, as we know, the electoral college. like i said, donald trump won it

with the slimmest margin of less than 80,000 people. that's the thing that democrats need to figure out. what is -- how do we win back the blue wall? i think ohio is gone. i do not see ohio being a swing state for us anymore. i think that's probably off the table. but we have to figure out those rust belt states. we did really well in 2018 in winning some of those gubernatorial races in those upper midwestern states. >> all right. thank you, careen and john. appreciate having you on the show this morning. >> thanks. ahead, a powerful set of voices coming up. pulitzer prize winning historian goodwin. vice chair of the committee, lauren under-jo jounderwood. maria teresa kumar. and carly fiorina, who will be

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i have a foreign leader waiting in my office at 5:30. okay. i've agreed to stay longer. it will be embarrassing if i keep this person waiting for a long period of time. i've assured you, i'm happy to come back here and answer more

of your questions. i respect the committee, and we want to have a good working relationship with you. i hope you'll understand. i'm already going to be late for my 5:30 meeting. >> i do understand. we're late on the time, unfortunately. we're all pressed for time. >> madame chair, i find this to be -- you know, i have here, every single time, jack lew and others over 3 hours, 15 minutes. i've sat here and told you i'll come back. i don't believe we're sitting here negotiating when i come back. >> i appreciate that, and i appreciate your reminding us of the length of time other secretaries have been here. this is a new way and it is a new day and it is a new chair. i have the gavel at this point. if you wish to leave, you way. >> when the republicans -- they did not treat the secretary of the treasury this way. if this is the way you want to treat me, then i'll rethink whether a voluntarily come back here to testify, which i've

offered to do. >> treasury secretary steve mnuchin and chairwoman of the house financial services committee, maxine waters, in a hearing yesterday. kind of sums up politics right now. >> who was he meeting with? >> the interior minister of bahrain later on. >> oh, please. >> interior minister of bahrain. >> he put it on twitter. >> that's an episode of "veep," the interior minister. >> it's an outtake. >> what you said, mika, was on point. these two sides, they dislike each other. it is genuine. you can see it. >> yeah. i'll leave it there. attorney general william barr says the mueller report will be released within a week, but parts will be blackened out. we'll be joined by senator chris coo coons, who will be questioning barr. plus, president trump tries to pin the blame for the family separation crisis on his

predecessor, barack obama, as the shakeup widens in the department of homeland security. "morning joe" is back in a moment. is back in a moment ♪ ♪ this simple banana peel represents a bold idea: a way to create energy from household trash. it not only saves about 80% in carbon emissions... it helps reduce landfill waste. that's why bp is partnering with a california company: fulcrum bioenergy. to turn garbage into jet fuel. because we can't let any good ideas go to waste.

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to improve short-term memory. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. obama separated the children, by the way, just so you understand. >> would you consider doing it again? >> president trump separated the children. the cages that were shown, i think they were very inappropriate. they were built by president obama's administration. not by trump. president obama had child separation. take a look. the press knows it. you know it. we all know it. i didn't have -- i'm the one that stopped it. president obama had child separation now, i'll tell you something, once you don't have it, that's why you see many more people coming. they're coming like it's a picnic because let's go to disneyla. >> you're not going to bring it back? >> we're not looking to do that, no. >> okay. see, that's just -- that is really sad, that the president really can take 40 seconds of our time and manipulate the

truth, lying that president barack obama was behind the family separations, a policy created by this administration, that he was behind the cages. then he points out that it works. works really well. >> okay. >> yeah. then he says that he is the one who stopped it. he wants the credit for stopping it, but he also wants people to know that it works really well and possibly it might come back, if you look at the policies being pushed by this white house. but he also wants to lie on top of it all and blame it on barack oba obama. there's something wrong with that. there's a lot wrong with that. welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, april 10th. joe has the morning off. along with willie and me, we have historian and author of "is soul of america," john meacham. former chairman of the national committee, michael steele. professor of history at tulane, walter isaacson. pulitzer prize-winning author,

doris goodwin. and foreign correspondent keir simmons is with us this level. >> the level of pulitzer prize winning historic power on the panel right now. >> the star wars. >> you been precedented. >> why not be in a bar? >> isaacisaacson is. >> sum up this moment in history, after hearing the president talk literally out of three sides of his mouth in one minute or less. the family separation policy, a lot of people will look like -- i think history will look on this as a real black mark on this country. ivanka trump called it a low point in this presidency and the lowest point for her in this presidency. yet, the president is now lying, saying a different president came up with the policy, but it works. what's history going to look back at this moment like? >> well, everybody understands that this is something donald trump believes in.

even in the clip, even in the 40 seconds you just showed, he said, i believe in this policy. i believe separation of family stops people from coming in. otherwise, they think it is a picnic, which is an unnerving concept for him to use. yes, you can probably point to times that there was some family separation or some enforcement provisions in previous administrations, but we know deep down inside what barack obama believed. we know what trump and miller and others in his administration believe. so it is very hard for him to keep perpetrating that he is on both the good side of this but he likes separation, but he is the one who stopped it and that caused the wave of immigrants. refugees, it's a good thing. but it's bad because trump usually wins over his base by being directly honest about his deep, dark emotions on immigration. >> doris, same question to you

and the politics, i guess, in some ways, works for the president in his bid for 2020. is that possible? >> well, it's possible that his base will hear this as a story, but in the long run, he's not winning public sentiment. in the end, you have to convince the majority of the country that what you're doing is right, that it supports your values. what lincoln said is he controls public sentiment, controls everything. it is more important than the people who make laws and those who kept judicial decisions. it is hard to imagine that when he tells a story that switches each way in the middle, and it has actual non-facts in it, people can point to it, that he can be a story teller. all presidents have black marks, but you have to accept responsibility for them. what is always, always going on with president trump is looking back to obama, as if he was the most powerful president we've ever had. he did everything, everything wrong in his mind. >> jeff session, it was a year

ago at this time, the attorney general at the time, instituted a zero tolerance policy, which he explicitly said was implemented as deterrent, to keep people from coming to this country. >> said, if you come here, you will be separated from your family. >> yes. zero tolerance led to family separation. >> right. >> so that is a trump administration policy. that is a new policy, zero tolerance, laid out by the trump administration. were some children separated under the obama administration, under existing immigration laws? yes. if you look at it this way, those were exceptions. the trump administration made it the rule, to separate families at the border. >> they made it a policy that they announced on many different levels. jeff sessions announced it. john kelly announced it. he went on camera and said, yes, this is a policy that i'm considering, and it is going to work as a deterrent, were the words that were kirstjen nielsen, unfortunately,

the face of the policy. because she wouldn't dig deeper on it, now is gone. is this effective politics for trump's base? will it work for him? >> it is working and has for a while, which is why the president has stayed on this particular theme, always coming back to immigration, whether it's the caravan, whether it's the separation policy, or what we saw just recently with the president sort of flip-flopping back and forth. it is a policy in search of an agenda, an agenda that is anchored to, you know, a base that wants something done here. it goes back to what we were saying before, mika, in the last hour, how a lot of the trump supporters stay with him because this is a guy who is going to go in and disrupt. he is going to do something. they know he's going to push up against this system. the problem is, at some point, you still have to come out on the other side of that purpose with a policy that actually deals with the problem.

the congress is a non-starter in moving anything. you know, reasonable people are looking to the administration, but the administration is more interested in playing the political drama than it is anything else, because that political drama helps in other areas, mika, like the barr situation, the mueller probe, sdny, and other things that are more vexing to the president that he cannot control. attorney general william barr testified yesterday before the appropriations committee, where he said the process of redacting the mueller report is going very well, and stood by his decision to withhold an unknown amount of its material from congress. he also said he's only following regulations by withholding information. but the lawyer who wrote the rules says barr has gotten it wrong. here first is what barr said,

fa followed by what was told to brian williams last night. >> it is interesting because this whole mechanism for the special counsel, as i said, was established during the clinton administration in the wake of ken starr's report. that's why the current rule says that the report should be kept confidential. because there was a lot of reaction against the publication of ken starr's report. i think the situation here requires me to exercise my discretion to get as much information out as i can. i think these categories, i think most fair-minded people would agree, are things that have to be redacted. >> that's flatly wrong. he said the report must be confidential and that's what the regulations say. they say no such thing, brian. they say the special counsel is to give a report to the attorney general, who should review it

for sources and methods and things like that. those can be appropriately redacted from a public version. there is nothing in the regulations that requires the report to be confidential. indeed, there is a provision we wrote in the regulations, which mr. barr didn't talk about, which provide for the public release of the attorney general's report. barr is not a special counsel. he is the attorney general. the provision about confidentiality only governs the special counsel. not the attorney general. of course, the attorney general can give such information to the congress. >> the attorney general is scheduled to testify before the senate appropriations committee today. let's bring in a member of the committee, along with the judiciary and foreign relation committees he sits on. senator chris coons of delaware. good to see you this morning. joyce vance was on a short time ago, the former federal prosecutor, making a distinction between what congress should see in the mueller report, she believes unredacted, and what the public should see, where you may redact sensitive

information, grand jury testimony, classified information, things like that. are you confident that you will see the unredacted mueller report from the attorney general? >> no, i'm not. that's one of my main concerns. the ways in which the attorney general has sought to restrict, control, redact this report has created more confusion rather than more transparency. he came before us in his confirmation hearing and pledged that he would lean in toward transparency. i still remained hopeful that we will find ways to achieve transparency. everything he's done so far, from his very short summary of his version of the highlights of the report released publicly, to the ways in which he is proceeding with redaction, i think both don't fit with the regulations and don't fit with his commitment to full transparency. >> are you sympathetic at all to his arguments there are parts of this, may be elements in the mueller report in the 300 some pages that even you as a sitting

senator shouldn't see? >> i think he's got an argument to the extent it would sbeintere with an ongoing investigation. as we know, there are several ongoing investigations. that is a legitimate law enforcement based argument for not providing it publicly. the senate is fully capable of receiving classified information. as we know, one of the core things the mueller report confirmed was the breadth and depth and intent of the russian interference campaign in our 2016 presidential elections. there's no reason we shouldn't be able to see the national security portions of this in a classified annex. frankly, in previous, very similar contexts, a court has ordered the release of grand jury information in the interests of public transparency. >> do you suspect then, senator, what jerry nadler suggested, this is headed for a subpoena then? the only way you'll see it is that way? >> that may end up being the case. unfortunately, a subpoena process can take a very long time to enforce.

>> yup. >> we should be trying to get as much out of the attorney general voluntarily as we can before turning to a subpoena in the house, if that's ultimately what happens. >> senator, i don't know if you can stand by and listen to this, keir simmons, you have vladimir putin's first reaction to the report. tell us about it. >> we really know we're living in an era of post truth politics when you have vladimir putin claiming that the attorney general's summary exonerates the kremlin. it does nothing of the sort. but vladimir putin is, you know, trying to spin. he is saying that the mueller inquiry was a mountain and it has become a mouse. the objective for the russians being want to try to get sanctions lifted. they want to pivot on the end of the mueller report to say, you see, we did nothing wrong. we should be free to trade and be involved in the u.s. by the way, there are multiple, very rich russians who are desperate to get back into

working in the u.s. and being able to trade with u.s. companies. i will say one thing, i think we knead to disabuse ourselves of the idea that putin is some kind of machiavellian, incredibly brilliant mind, who h has manipulated american politics. in many ways, what happened with russia is a disaster for them. because by intervening in the way they did, they have made it more likely that the sanctions are tougher and will continue. >> senator, any concerns you have about putin's response? >> well, it's striking that the two people who are repeatedly and publicly saying they're fully exonerated by the mueller report are president trump and vladimir putin. >> right. >> i don't think there's anyone here in my party, in my caucus, who believes this report fully exonerates either our president or vladimir putin. that's exactly why getting the details in this report, in particular about obstruction, where the attorney general reached his own conclusion and

did not leave it to us to carry out our constitutional duty to conduct oversight and to be better informed about whether or not the president violated the american people's trust and his constitutional duty, to see that the laws are fully and fairly enforced, that is something that is appropriate for congress to see this report, to be able to act on. >> walter isaacson and then meacham. >> senator, good morning to you. >> morning. >> i was wondering, why don't the democrats just wait, see what barr delivers? he seems like he is trying to get to the right place. there will be some redactions. he'll explain why. maybe there can be a discussion of what's in those redactions. it seems like people are trying to pump this up before there might be a resolution. he seems pretty sincere in heading in the correct direction. >> walter, that may end up being the case. next week, i may be surprised by

a fulsome release of this report. the key thing that made me uncomfortable with his nomination was he sent an unsolicited 18-page memo into the department of justice that directly critiqued what he believed to be robert mueller's argument on obstruction of justice. not an obvious or simple thing for someone in private practice to do. that he weighed in proactively on the argument on obstruction of justice, then he insisted himself on reaching a conclusion about obstruction, which the special counsel did not, gives me real concern. i agree with you, walter, before moving toward a subpoena or some other measure, we should wait and see what the attorney general releases. but given that particular piece of his recent conduct, i'm spectacle. >> senator, keir simmons here. to what extent do you think that the focus on mueller has also meant a focus on russia, which

has been greater than perhaps is in the interest of america? because there's another, you know, kind of elephant in the room, and that's china. >> yes. >> of course, russia will not be the only enemy of america that will want to try to intervene in american domestic affairs, and perhaps even politics in the future. has enough been done to try to protect the u.s. domestic political system going forward? >> not enough. one of the key lessons we need to learn from the 2016 presidential election is that it is exactly the openness of our society, the ways in which social media is a powerful and almost completely unregulated influence in our campaigns, that we need to do more to strengthen our electoral systems. we did send out about $350 million in grants -- excuse me -- two years ago, but we have not yet done everything we could to strengthen the partnership

between the federal government, in particular, our law enforcement and intelligence communities, and the thousands of local officials and boards that are responsible for carrying out and protecting our elections. you're absolutely right, i view china as the greatest competitor, as the greatest threat to our role in the world in this century. we need to be working together to find ways that we can cooperate or compete with china in order to avoid what may otherwise be a conflict, in particular, over future interference in our elections, by countries other than russia. perhaps, principprincipally, ch >> senator, one thing that links two of the dominant stories of yesterday but stories of the age, the family separation and the president's remarks about th that, and the russia questions,

law. the president said yesterday, and i'm paraphrasing, we have courts that rule against us all the time. which to a lot of folks, it translates to a kind of warning, a flashing yellow light if you will, that you may have a president at some point defying court orders. you may have a breakdown of basic norms in terms of the separation of powers. to what extent in your caucus, and among your republican colleagues, is this a source of conversation? do you all war game, if you wilwil will, what's the worst case scenario if this guy really loses it? >> it is a legitimate and widely shared source of concern, john, that president trump repeatedly says things that suggest both that he views the press as -- and this is a great phrase -- the enemy of the people, and that he views judges and courts as illegitimate. i'll remind you, one of the first things president trump did that showed this anti-immigrant

inclination was the so-called muslim ban. he campaigned on saying he was going to ban muslims from entering our country. then one of his first executive orders was that so-called muslim ban. it was temporarily restrained by a court. my own home community, the church i grew up in, was at the time working with one of our local mosques and synagogues to welcome a syrian refugee family that was blocked from coming to this country by that judge's -- excuse me -- the president's executive order was temporarily blocked by that action. the family was able to come to this country. ultimately, that muslim ban was in a revised form upheld by our supreme court. in a few minutes, just an hour later this morning, i'm going to be introducing a bill with a wide range of senators and house members that would prevent this president or a future president from imposing a similar religiously-based ban on folks

coming from into this country. narrowing his powers. this is not a bill that i expect to become law in this administration, but every democratic senator running for president is a co-sponsor. i think it is important that we put out a marker that says, we will not engage, as a party, in the kinds of family separation actions, whether at the border or by preventing families from reuniting, based on religion. this is just not who we are. there are ways we can secure or border and secure our country without intentionally and cruelly dividing families. i do worry, as do many of my colleagues, john, that the president is increasingly unlikely to keep following the rule of law, should he be re-elected. >> yeah. senator chris coons, thank you. thank you for introducing that bill. doris, we're at a point where a bill like that will be introduced, and how much republican support will it get? >> i think the key again is it has to be an education process for the country at large. the most important thing right now is to make the country

understand what's happening on the border, to make the country understand that the mueller report was what we were waiting for, to get the facts so we had a common story that we could all believe in. the problem is, with these two comptons that have gone out now, from barr and from president trump, exonerating himself, the first two chapters of that story have already been written. the base will take that. whatever comes later, they won't filter it into what has been said. at some point, we have to hope the country can agree on what the story of this two-year investigation was, and the important of the facts so that we can go forward about russia and go forward about what was done. we seem to be stuck in that base and the everybody else right now. the key for the next leader, if there is a next leader, is to be able to bring those divisions and heal them and allow the country to have some set of facts we agree on. >> some clarity. >> doris is exactly right. the key phrase here is common story. would you agree, it seems to me that the narrative split, at

least in the modern era, begins with yalta. you had the right-wing believed that he had -- the sick man of yalta sold us out. democrats defended it. it really gave rise to movement conservatism that continues to unfold. >> that's the trouble when there is not an agreement on a story that's partly central to our country. that's what has made us go forward. >> central to who we are. >> our values. every story that brought us forward, whether a civil rights story, the women's story, the anti-slavery movement, it's brought us forward in common purpose. when you have this divided country right now, there is no chance for that. we need a story. >> i have bad news. people will not agree on a common story about russia. a lot of the country made up its mind before we knew the outcome of the mueller report, on both sides, by the way. >> that's the problem of the age. it's not just the age. i mean, it's been perennial. 20% of the country didn't want to revolt against britain. now it is a 51/49 question.

we fought a civil war over a -- >> different story. >> -- a different story. doris is exactly right. what i would hope the president would do, when being driven off to mar-a-lago or whatever, and he is passing these monuments, realize they were never built to someone who tried to close down access to the mainstream. monuments were never built to people who wanted to build walls. they were built to people who more generously apply what jefferson meant when he wrote that sentence. >> yay for history. >> yes. historical. >> yalta in there. it was great. >> this is what you get on "morning joe." >> you got a lot today. >> alex is going to kill me. >> sorry. ahead, congresswoman and vice chair of the house homeland security committee, lauren underwood is just back from the southern border. she joins us to talk about that and much more next on "morning joe." visit thousands of companies, in a multitude of countries,

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united states military has released the names of the three u.s. marines killed in what a military official is calling a, quote, catastrophic vehicle-born ie d bo ied bombing in afghanistan on wednesday. the taliban claimed responsibility for the attack. among those killed, 43-year-old sergeant sluman. a father of three which i shall, al children, also a veteran of fdny. 25-year-old corporal robert hendricks. 31-year-old benjamin hines also killed. the three marines were supporting operation resolute support. seven u.s. service members have died in afghanistan this year. mike, you and i circled the same thing when we sat down this morning going through the newspaper, about staff sergeant

who leaves behind a wife and these kids. >> these are the stories more important than what we talk about each and every day in the short run and the long run. the sergeant wore two uniforms. fire department, new york city, united states marine corps. these three members of the marine corps reserve were stationed in massachusetts. they end up in afghanistan, fighting a war that has been going on now for nearly 20 years, nearly two decades. these people represent what america is all about. america is a country of service to the world. these young men represent service to this country. we talk about so many other people in washington who dearly drop their duty in terms of telling the truth to the country about the country. these young men who were killed in afghanistan yesterday symbolize who we really are. >> joining us, a member of the

veterans affairs committee and vice chair of the homeland security committee, democratic congresswoman lauren underwood of illinois. she recently returned from a trip to the southern border. also with us, founding president of vote latina, and an msnbc contributor, kumar. thank you for joining us. president trump said obama was the one who separated families and created the cages. he said the policy works. he's the one who ended it. what's going on at the border? what's the reality? >> what we saw this weekend was a completely unaccountable. people were being stored in outdoor cages. all the individuals we saw ten days ago that were being kept under the bridge in el paso have been moved to tents. these tents are hot. they are dark. there is no air circulation. it is this chorus of cries.

you hear babies crying. mothers with desperation in their eyes. individuals who are dirty, who are desperate. it's soul crushing. we saw at the border folks who are not receiving the medical attention that they truly deserve. we have a variety of contractors and federal officials who are providing medical services under incredibly limited conditions without, you know, the tools and resources of any ambulatory clinic we would find here in any community around the country. yet, these individuals have acute and chronic illnesses and are not receiving proper care. what i saw really was a variety of federal law enforcement officers, whether border patrol or customs and border protection, who are really dedicated to doing their jobs. in el paso, they've had 194 officers reassigned. we have a port that is not able to process the volume of

pedestrians, vehicle and commerce traffic, equire e requ sustain the economy each day, and a system stretched to a breaking point. we are at a humanitarian crisis. i hear a president who is not taking responsibility. >> well, some would think -- some would say he create td cd crisis. >> 100%. >> he made another comment yesterday in a strange tirade of lies and mistruths, then prob m proclamations about what he's done, saying he ended this. he said when they come here, it is like disneyland. what is your response? what do you think the first thing is that should be done at the border? >> i think if your program or any other news outlet was able to walk into these detention centers, which they insist are not jails, the american people would be horrified and the conditions would improve by the end of the week. what we see happening is

un-american. it is unacceptable. it is inhumane. the president of the united states, i think, is off base in that characterization. many of the homeland security officials would likely agree that this is not a walk in the park. it is not certainly a theme park. it is not fun. what is happening right now are individuals who are not being treated with the dekren cency a humanity they deserve, and certainly not in the way we as a country value the treatment of fellow human beings. >> congresswoman underwood points an ugly picture happening at the border, which she points out our cameras, unfortunately, can't see for the most part. it is a picture that looks like may get worse because of what's happening, when you hollow out the department of homeland security, when you don't have these positions filled. kiers kirstjen nielsen was run out of her job for not being tough

enough on this. you can imagine if it gets tougher, and i don't like that word because my definition of toughness is not separating children from their mothers. >> it is cruelty. the challenge is the president is creating a vulnerability around the border by gutting homeland security without leadership. he creates opportunities for others to cause harm, instead of addressing the issue. what many forget is under obama, we did have a surge at the border. he put pieces in place and legislation in place to ensure that there was actual protections. for example, he ensured that my kno minors can seek asylum at their countries of origin, to ensure they were not making dangerous journeys. trump immediately gut that when he came to homeland security. the fact that now he actually gutted aid to honduras, guatemala, he is exacerbating the problem. he wants individuals feeling vulnerable so his base feels he is tough. it is against our values, of who

we really are. >> you heard maria and representative underwood describe vividly the situation at the border. it seems that the policy of this administration at the border is basically to shut down the border and ratchet up the cruelty. looking for a little perspective from you here. how is it that we have arrived at a point over this one issue where fear, fear generated within this country about the border, not fact but fear, is so dominant today and so dangerous? >> well, i think partly the way we've arrived at it is during the campaign of 2016, there were a lot of people in the country who felt that the system wasn't working for them and that there wasn't the mobility that they wanted. there was an anger, just as there was at the turn of the 20th century, that sense of lots of different feelings, and president trump was able to blame it on immigration and look at the border. that'd be the answer to their

problems. we know that's not the answer, that that's not the problem with what's happening with our lack of economic mobility in the country. then what worries me about what's happening now, too, is we have acting heads. we don't have responsible people there. president trump said, i like acting heads because, you know, they're less secure. they're more vulnerable. >> right. >> what you want around you as a leader, every leader i've known, that i've known by living with them over time, that has been good wants people around them who are secure, with argue with them, question their assumptions. >> make them better. >> but if you make people less secure, and they're ready to be fired at a moment, and publicly, humiliatedly fired, and say, i like them acting because i can fix them, it is up to me, we have to worry about leadership. >> you're talking about making people less secure. lauren underwood, how about making our country less secure? i'm not trying to overstate this. there are so many gaping holes in the department of homeland security. >> that's right. >> this president appears to

have made the entire dhs about the southern border. >> that's right. >> where there is no threat, okay, where the threat is being created. the crisis, the humanitarian crisis, is being created. we've had our troops sent to the border. now, we have an entire department of homeland security that is focused on immigration in a way that is completely contrary to reality in terms of our security and what dhs is supposed to do. what are the concerns you have about how many vacancies or acting administrators there are there? >> well, let's just level set. when secretary nielsen came before our committee the beginning of march, she stated herself under oath the most significant threat to our country is in a cyberattack. that was number one. yet, the majority of resources are being reallocated down to the border. now, with these vacancies, both at the front line, at the border patrol level, all the way up to

a vacancy, effectively at the secretarial level, we are incredibly vulnerable to attacks through any number of means. quite candidly, these vacancies are creating a vacuum of accountability at the border. what's going on down there every day, more and more people are seeking asylum. more and more people are presenting at a port of spri or entry or along the wall. we saw a uniformed officer in the green outfits, border patrol, so they can seek refuge and asylum in the united states. we do not have enough individuals who are able to process those folks and a leadership vacancy that means that the policy is being created on a whim by individuals who ultimately are not well-positioned to set policy for the united states. >> maria, yesterday, we got data from customs and border protection that said we had the most border apprehensions in the month of march for a single

month in more than a decade, in 11 years. what does that number tell you? donald trump and the white house will say, you see, we need all these tough policies. look how many people are trying to flood up here and get to our country. >> it is a number of things. one, they've dismantled policies that obama used to address the first time we had a flow. secondly, there's lack of curiosity of how do we get to the root causes of what's happening, to ensure we are not only providing protection at the border but also to ensure we're stemming the flow. let's be, you know, incredibly transparent. during the midterm election, trump lost a lot of suburban white women because of the family separation policy. >> yup. >> that is why he is now speaking on two sides of his mouth. he wants to say, no, this is on the -- on obama's administration. it is not. let be clear, this is a policy he decided would win him the white house in 2020. >> congresswoman underwood, thank you so much. please come back.

keeping us posted on what's going on. >> thank you. >> maria, thank you, as well. it is great to have you on. coming up, "politico" has a new piece out entitled "trump's truly bizarre visit to mt. vernon," explaining how the 45th president marvelled at the first president's failure to name his historic compound after himself. >> amazing story. >> let that breathe. speaking of george washington, president trump reportedly said if he was smart, he would have put his name on it. you've got to put your name on stuff or no one remembers you. we'll talk about that and more with our resident historians, doris and walter. we'll bring in the author of the new book "accidental presidents," eight men who changed america. nothing says spring like fresh flowers,

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all i have, i would have given gladly not to be standing here today. the greatest leader of our time has been struck down by the foulest deed of our time. no words are sad enough to express our sense of loss. no words are strong enough to express our determination to continue the forward trust of america he began. >> november 27th, 1963, president johnson, nearly 60 years ago, following his succession after the assassination of john f. kennedy. that was the eighth and final time in u.s. history a president

has died in office. joining us now, author of the book "accidental presidents," eight men who changed america. jared cohen, good morning and congratulations on the book. >> thank you so h. >> how are we defining an accidental president? >> i wanted to look at how a president died in office and how the lack of a heart beat changed the course of history. what struck me is how little the founding fathers thought about a vice presidency, and the fact this kept happening was endlessly frustratinfrustrating. despite we got johnson presiding over preconstructik reconstruct lincoln, teddy roosevelt, we winged it before jfk's assassination before we had the 25th amendment. >> we had almost a mt. rushmore of presidential historians here.

meacham had to leave. >> it was fun watching me watch you watch johnson's speech. >> the better part is he is going to make civil rights his priority, which was a courageous thing to do. his advisers said, you can't do it. election will be 11 months away. you'll get nothing done. there will be a southern filibuster. they say, you have a certain amount of coinage in the presidency penned. he said, what the hell is the presidency for. while the vietnam war will be a stain, and jfk could have done better, his accidental presidency led to civil rights, voting rights, medicare, med d medica medicaid, npr. sometimes, one person is right for one part of the presidency and not as right for the other. he is extraordinary. harry truman comes in. sometimes the accidental presidents are just one of our best presidents. it is an extraordinary thing. we think about the vice presidency, i think what you're right about, we didn't learn that lesson so there's still

useless offices, until recently. when teddy roosevelt was vice president, he said it was a useless office, he was going to go back to law school. he had nothing to do. finally, you're nothing and then you're everything, then you are the president of the united states. >> what is that moment like, jared? obviously, it is different for all of them. as doris says, you get a phone call or a telegram, depending on thor rera, that announces you ae the leader of the free world. >> none appear to have given thought to the idea of being president, all the way up to that very moment. i think what is striking about truman is that truman early into his tenure of vice president gets a call saying there is a rumor the president is dead. everybody knew fdr was dying. it was a not so well-kept secret. he appears to have had no emotional reaction to it. six days beforepresidency, he s

describes himself as a political eunich to friends. what i'm struck by is everybody seems surprised when it happens, including the vice president, so that shows you they're not thinking of themselves as a heartbeat away from the presidency. >> let's go to isaac. isaac, jump in. >> jared, you know how much i loved your book. it's full of wonderful anecdotes, even about the most obscure people in our history. i was wondering if you could take on hardigan coolidge who is in the book and tell what you think today about the trump administration. >> if we reflect back on history, the most scandalous administration in history is the warren harding presidency. you had teapot dome, you had a scandal at the veterans bureau, the attorneys general was complicit in everything from stock fixing to bootlegging. when harding dies unexpectedly while traveling out west,

coolidge ascends to the presidency. coolidge is already kind of irrelevant and boring and quiet. he cultivates an image of a man so silent and boring that he couldn't possibly have been complicit in any of the scandals. it was a good strategy, but the economy was booming. what you conclude from this is as long as the economy is booming, the voters seemed to care very little about scandals. and at the time i don't think they would have cared if it was harding or coolidge or herbert hoover as long as the good times were rolling in. >> you know, walter, from warren g. harding to calvin coolidge and harry truman and lyndon johnson, we know accidental presidencies work or don't work, but today has the presidency changed because of the damage done to the institution of the presidency today that would affect any accidental presidency or the next president? >> well, the main thing a

president should do is set norms. you talked about the politico wonderful story on trump being clueless when he visits washington's home at mt. vernon. the big difference between washington and others who could have had that job is he had a sense of humility and a sense of norms, so after two terms when a lot of people want him to be the king, he says, no. it's time to step aside. when you have a presidency destroying the norms, it makes it more difficult to do what jared's book shows, which is have our constitution be a living document that can handle new types of crises that come along as it handled the crises of accidental presidents, the constitution and its interpretation was able to adjust. but now we're seeing a total destruction of norms. >> let's describe that piece that walter just mentioned.

it's a new piece from politico called "trump's truly bizarre visit to mt. vernon. it talks about how trump marvelled last year at how the first president failed to name the compound after himself. the president said, quote, if he was smart, he would have put his name on it, speaking about mt. vernon. you have to put your name on stuff or no one remembers you. the tour guide that day, mt. vernon president doug bradburn, according to politico, told the president that washington did, after all, succeeded in getting the nation's capitol named after him. good point, trump said, with a laugh. the piece goes on to write that trump asked if washington was really rich, added a second person familiar with the visit, adding that's what trump was really most excited about. the white house did not comment on that story. doris, i'll put it on a tee for you. what do you think? >> it just reminds me of the time when president trump was meeting with a group of

republicans and he's telling them, do you realize lincoln was the first republican? i'm telling you something. but the most important thing you want in a president is someone who wants to be remembered for deeds that have either increased social justice or economic opportunity, made the lives of people better, whether it's getting us into peace out of a war or the economy out of der pre -- depression. that's what you want to be remembered for, not your name floating around. you want to be remembered for things you did, not the name. it's an incredible story. i love it. >> it's mind-numbing. michael steele, jump in. >> that's not the standard. i'm waiting for the trump logo to go up on the white house. it's going to be trump house. >> you joke, michael, you joke. >> no, i don't. i live here. trust me, it's no joke. to jared, i think that the question is, you know, where are

we now? you have these moments in history where the course changes. are these vice presidents stepping in to a situation where they continue their legacy or they take it in a really different direction? and what does that mean for the country? because even outside of the big issues that we know, the great society programs that johnson put on the table, the move towards civil rights, were there still elements of the preceding president still a part of that office, if you will? >> michael, i think that's an excellent question. i think what's extraordinary about this story is the fact that of the eight transitions, almost every single man who ascended to the presidency radically changed the course of our history. so john tyler, who is the first accidental president, gets excommue

excommunicated by the wig party and decides to anticipate bar with mexico. zachary taylor, when he dies in office, is the first impedimentment to 1950. he comes in and you have the compromise of 1850. we should have gotten lincoln, we got something very different. and the story goes on. >> all right. the book is "accidental presidents: eight men who changed america." it's available now. jared cohen, thank you very, very much. and doris kearnes kumar, thank you. william barr says a redacted version of the report will be released in a week and warns that if that's not good enough for democrats, they can go to court. actress lori loughlin and more than a dozen parents have now been charged with money

laundering which could lead to some serious prison time. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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judges, congress, barack obama. the conservative "wall street journal" editorial board calls president trump incoherent on immigration completely. and we'll have more on that. we'll have a sound bite of the president yesterday where he lies and says three things at once in less than 30 seconds. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, april 10. joe has the morning off, but along with willie and me, we have nbc contribute tore mike barnicle. anything going on in the sports world, mike? >> no. just move on. >> bad? >> it's getting serious at fenway. very bad. we don't want to talk about it. >> then we won't. story and author of "the soul of america" and rogers professor of the presidency at vanderbilt university, jon meacham is here. he's an msnbc contributor. white house reporter of the washington press, jonathan mere

is here. former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele, is with us. >> what about those nats? >> the nats won. >> no g. you have to know what a nat is. >> and msnbc contributor joyce vans is with us. so much to get to with joyce. prosecutors are piling up the charges against wealthy parents accused of cheating their kids' way into college. and it's not just fraud now. it's also money laundering. plus, bernie sanders made some money off his book deal. actually, a lot in the eyes of some of his supporters. what his soon-to-be released tax returns mean for his presidential campaign. and there is a fascinating front-page story in the "new york times" this morning, "why

liberals on twitter don't speak for the quiet majority of democrats." this is what we were talking about, willie, with the biden story, where blue check marks on twitter were all up in arms, but america? they see him as a nice guy and they don't understand what all the fuss is about. there are so many stories like that where you can get caught up in twitter if you're a dem, and you can find yourself misleading your own campaign efforts. >> it's a really good piece on the front page. i know we're going to talk about it later but it gets to the echo chamber that frankly a lot of us live in, . an issue that is actually small appears large because it's right in front of you. william barr will testify before the senate committee this morning after yesterday's hearing with the counterpart in the house. barr said the redaction in the counterpart is going very well. >> my original timetable of

being able to release this by mid-april stands. and so i think that from my standpoint, by -- within a week, i'll be in a position to release the report to the public. >> will we have the complete report, or are you going to be selective as to what you give members of congress? >> you mean the unredacted report? >> uh-huh. >> no. as i said, i'm glad to talk to chairman nadler and chairman graham as to whether they feel they need more information and see if there is a way we could accommodate that. it's interesting because this whole mechanism for the special counsel, as i said, was established during the clinton administration in the wake of ken starr's report. and that's why the current rule says that the report should be kept confidential. many of the people who are right

now calling for release of this report were basically ca castigating ken sktarr and othes for releasing the starr report. i have already said the situation here has given me discretion to get as much of the testimony out as i can. >> it has charged jerry nadler to issue a subpoena for the full report and underlying materials, at which nadler reacted this way. >> congress has need of the entire report, including the grand jury, including everything. and i presume we're going to get the redacted report within a week. when we do so, if we don't get everything, we will issue the subpoena and go to court. >> joyce vance, let's start with you on this and your impressions

generally of attorney general barr's answers yesterday. he said he will have it within a week. i'm sure he thinks there are things that should be redacted, classified material, grand jury testimony, things like that. what concerned you as you listened to attorney general barr, if anything? >> there is a really important distinction we need to draw here, and that's between the version of the report that's released to the public and the version of the report that becomes available to congress. barr is focused on this exclusively in his testimony yesterday morning on getting a heavily redacted version of the report out to the public, and as you suggested, i would agree publicly we don't want to see a broad release of grand jury without a court order. we don't want to see evidence that could implicate national security being publicly released. we don't even want to necessarily see public-made information about folks who were considered as targets but not indicted. that's the public release. the release to congress is an

entirely different story. congress is entitled to a much broader dissemination of information. in fact, they have to have that information, including grand jury, including national security so they can fulfill their oversight function and make the decision that bob mueller appears to have left to them. the attorney general who sort of committed to transparency during his confirmation hearings, at least in a broad sense, really walked that back yesterday. and i think it will ultimately be unsatisfactory in terms of both the report that's released publicly and clearly and what goes to congress. >> jonathan mira, you have new reporting for the associated press that trump's overlap of the mueller probe may have been premature. now with the full report about to come out in a few days, fear of allies are growing. are they getting ready for this

to brace people for it? >> when barr put out his summary, four-page letter a few weeks ago, the trump allies immediately seized upon it. it was a deliberate attempt to try to frame the story, get out ahead of it and spin it their way. we saw a few days later the president had a rally in washington suggesting he had been cleared, he used the phrase total exoneration, which, of course, the mueller report and the barr summary does not use, and he started using it to pound his adversaries. but what's happened since is fears have grown among trump allies, republicans on the hill, about what else is going to be in this report. 400-odd pages and stuff that's not going to be redacted. perhaps it's not going to rise to the level of criminality but will be potentially embarrassing, politically damaging for both him and those close to him in the white house, perhaps as well some of his family members. what we have seen here in the last couple weeks is we've gone from trump, the day of the barr summary, calling barr a humble

man. we've seen the attacks step up. he told giuliani he's ready to open fire again on mueller. they want to attack and have been and will continue to attack the credibility. investigato -- credibility of the investigators to undermine the conclusions. >> what's the risk, michael, that they overplay their hand here? there can be a slow and methodical and consistent effort to see the entire report, but isn't there a risk again to overplay? >> there is, and that's always sort of the edge that the democrats find themselves walking on, the measure to which they ramp up hearings, the measure to which they go after getting the mueller report. look, they have the public behind them on this. the public wants to see this report released, as much of it as possible. as has already been pointed out, they have under the current situation, the current laws, the

opportunity to see a broader report than the one we may see here in the public as part of their oversight. so play to that strength that they have. one, the american people behind them for the release of the report, and two, what they're entitled to in their oversight function. there is no need to, you know, start throwing around subpoenas loosely or giving the impression that they're creating a drama around something that may not be as dramatic in the end. >> jon meacham, it's interesting that the attorney general raises the specter trying to compare the starr report to the mueller report in his testimony yesterday when the differences between both reports, the subject matter of both reports, is striking. >> it's striking -- it's also -- one similarity could be -- could be -- that neither would be an extra lost chapter in profiles in courage. right? to say the least.

and as president kennedy used to say, there is a reason profiles and courage was one volume. there is not a lot of examples out there. i think what jonathan just said is exactly right. there is no question that this is going to be politically embarrassing. again, it's not going to be the sign -- it's not going to be the story of how donald trump stood up and said, no, i shall not receive any help from russia because i am an american -- that's not going to be there. so the underlying story, i think what's going to happen is everybody is going to jump on that. but the central story, which i think is behind your question, is this is a foreign power that has projected soft power to affect our decision making. and why it is, for the 7,000th time somebody said today already, why is it that the party of reagan that did so much to end the cold war has become

so acclimated to russian advances in power and interfering with our elections is one of the greatness? >> the president said he's not firing national security. one of them pushed off the job might not agree. first, let's go to bill karans for a check of the forecast. >> that blizzard starts in denver in about an hour. in days we'll be talking about highways closed and farmers will have a hard time feeding their cattle because of this deep snow and the wind. here it is. the blue now is in south dakota. many areas of the rockies had rain overnight and areas of iowa. 15 million people are at risk of strong storms as far as the winter side of this goes. storms from denver all the way to minneapolis.

your forecast has improved a little bit in minneapolis. yesterday it looked worse. now you may go from rain to a little bit of snow. that's why we have you at only six inches of snow. this pink and red, that's 18 to 24 inches of snow. in january that's a headline, in the middle of april that's historic. that's why we'll have issues here on interstate 90. there could be kids out of school for a few days because of the storm. we're going to continue with those 60-mile-an-hour winds today in texas. just bring a little bit of rain on friday to the northeast, but not even a tenth of the deal it's going to be today in the plains. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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president trump says he's not cleaning house at the department of homeland security, a department with its entire leadership serving in an acting capacity. last night secretary kirstjen nielsen, who leaves today, which is about as abrupt as it gets for a person at the top. >> i've seen tsa lines longer than that. there are trucks lined up at the border right now that have taken longer than secretary nielsen gave notice. >> she is out of there. literally the road runner. confirming rumors that the acting deputy secretary, clair grady, that she's leaving as well. confirming legal hurdles for the new acting secretary, kevin

mcaleenan, to take over. the president denied something was underway. >> what would you like to achieve with the new leadership? >> i never said we were cleaning house. we have a lot of great people over there. we have bad laws. we have a judge that just ruled incredibly that he doesn't want people staying in mexico. we have the worst laws of any country anywhere in the world. we're bucking a court system that never, ever rules for us, but our job could be so much easier. i think kevin is going to do a fantastic job. he's acting but i think he's going to do a fantastic job. and we're not doing anything very big. >> meanwhile, a senior administration official tells the "new york times" the trump administration plans to aggressively push for tougher screening of asylum seekers, making it vastly more difficult for migrants fleeing persecution in their home countries from winning protection in the united states. according to that official, president trump ordered the recent shake-up of his top immigration officials because

they were moving too slowly or even obstructing the president's desire to confront the surge of migrants at the southern border. the official telling "the times" the asylum changes are among many policies the president wants to put into effect with his new team in place. denials for asylum seekers have already been on the rise as the "washington post" notes that may be in part because former attorney general jeff sessions said victims of domestic violence and gang attacks generally would not qualify for asylum, an issue that's being litigated in federal courts. while speaking to reporters yesterday, president trump denied that the changes would include restarting the family separation policy, but he argued that that had been effective. >> obama separated the children, by the way. >> would you consider doing it again? >> just so you understand, president obama separated the children. those cages that were shown, i think they were very inappropriate. they were built by president obama's administration, not by trump. president obama had child

separation. take a look. the press knows it, you know it, we all know it. i'm the one that stopped it. president obama had child separation. and i'll tell you something, once you don't have it, that's why you see many more people coming. they're coming like it's a picnic because let's go to disneyland. >> you're not going to bring it back? >> we're not looking to do that. >> jonathan, first of all, that's flatly untrue, that the obama administration did not begin the family separation policy. some of those pictures of children in cages was from the obama era but they did not have that explicitly like president trump did. what's going on with the wall now? there was a quote a couple days ago where president trump turned to stephen miller and said, you're in charge now of immigrations. >> miller is on the rise, there is no question there. he has been in a mind numb with the president in terms of

immigration policy. he helped shake up the campaign. he came over with jeff sessions. he is a lot of what the president wants to accomplish. the president is frustrated that not as much as he wants has gotten done. he sees the number of crossings going up. he pushed for the family separation policy, something he believed was effective. one of the reasons that secretary nielsen is about to become former secretary nielsen is because she argued with him that the law was not on their side for some of these. they could not separate the families, they could not close the borders, there was an economic impact there as well. he's been goaded on behind the scenes by stephen miller and they decided it's time to make a change. they had said family separations, officials we talked to yesterday say, that's not necessarily coming back to a policy, but a modified version thereof could still be in play in the weeks ahead. they could return to that. and certainly the asylum seekers are something they want to change.

currently about three-quarters of people who seek asylum are granted it in the united states, and they want to bring that number down dramatically to make it much tougher to qualify, to prove that you need to seek asylum in the united states because your country is so dangerous. a master class at gaming the system. we'll unpack the college admissions cheating scandal which just took another big turn. that conversation is next on "morning joe." that conversation is next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪

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purpose of promoting the fraud scheme, according to the court documents. in return, more than two dozen lawyers for the prominent parents accused prosecutors of judge shopping to get their clients' cases in front of a judge with a tough sentencing history. the u.s. attorney overseeing the case in boston called the claim, quote, procedurally inappropriate and disingenuous. the new indictments come a day after 14 defendants, including actress felicity huffman, announced their intent to plead guilty next month to a separate charge leveled against them. joining us now, state attorney for palm beach county, david arenberg. dave, first of all, what questions come to mind? why wouldn't lori loughlin take the choice or take the path that felicity huffman and other parents took, which is figure out to do a deal? doesn't she face a good amount of jail time? >> she could. she faces up to 40 years in prison, although she scores a

lot less, and the feds would keep it close to the vest as to whether they've even offered a plea deal, but the cases are very different. in the case of huffman, we're talking about a payment of $15,000 to rig her daughter's s.a.t. in the case of lori loughlin, she and her husband are accused of paying $500,000 to get their daughters, their two daughters, into usc through a whole ruse with the crew team, even though neither daughter had ever participated in crew before. then you have the specter of the one daughter, olivia, who is an online influencer making statements like she doesn't care about school, saying things like she'd rather be filming than going to class. it's that kind of let them eat cake mentality that could irk federal prosecutors, and you could say that's one reason why there has been no plea deal yet in this case. >> so joyce vance, it appears that the deal felicity huffman

made, she will not serve time in prison. what is the possibility of lori loughlin actually sitting in a prison cell? >> what will drive her sentence will be the dollar amount of the money laundering she's involved in. money laundering carries tough penalties because she's using half a million dollars or will be accountable for half a million dollars in fraud. her guide sentence, we know that's the sentence she will actually serve and not that 40-year term that we look at. she could serve up to a decade in federal prison if everything goes as far as the prosecution seems intent on going. >> dave, let me ask you to put a defense counsel's hat on for a second. 15 grand in one case, half a million, 500 grand in another case. is it not the intent rather than the amount that's really at the crux of this thing? >> well, when it comes to sentencing guidelines, the amount is really important. another thing is showing

remorse. i mean, at the last hearing, lori loughlin was signing autographs, she was waving to supporters, she was all smiles. that's not going to endear herself well to federal prosecutors. compare that to felicity huffman who wrote a very long letter of contrition asking for forgiveness, and that's the kind of thing that could get her a better deal and could win her in the court of public opinion where she could restart her acting career after this is all over. i suspect the next time we see aunt becky, she'll be a little more contrite. >> jon meacham, prominent professor at a university. >> the deference you give me is a little coy. >> it's a stretch. what do you guys talk about? this has to be absolutely stunning. >> for the record, no one has ever offered me any money. i will say this, i'm more popular among our old new york friends the day the wait list

comes out. the cell phone rings and they say, hey, how is memphis? that's the extent of it. i think that's incredible. it is a sign -- we have a kid two years out from all this. you've gone through it. barnicle's grandkids are going through it at this point. >> okay. >> they're only six months old. okay. >> and it is a wild meritacratic culture. if david brooks was a novelist, this cries out for him. we have more. carly fiaria mrkfiarimina is st. she joins the conversation in

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let's keep an eye on each

other tonight. in case one of us is in a bad situation, we should have a signal so we can get the other one out of it. >> how old are you? >> 36. what's the signal? how about this? chicken wing. no, i've got a better one. head patting. >> whatever you want. >> peanut oil. can i talk to you for a second? >> excuse me. what have you been doing? i've been smacking myself senseless. people think i'm a mental patient. >> hey, i was dying over there. >> this guy is going off on the peanut. now, pay attention. >> seinfeld's take on getting caught in a bad situation. we, of course, strive to have good conversations here on "morning joe." we try. we try our best. our next guest says the whole country needs to be talking more effectively. joining us now is the executive director of the national conversation project.

pierce gogmanly introduced the national week of conversation which aims to mend the social fabric and revitalize the economy. we brought back sara holland. they are co-authors of the book, "i think you're wrong but i'm listening: a guide to grace-filled political conversations." pierce, tell us about the project, the week. how do you actually put this into practice? >> absolutely, mika. as you well know, america is facing a cultural crisis right now, as increasingly we don't just disagree, but we dislike, distrust and even despise those who see the world differently. our animosity for positions which is often very understandable has become contempt for the people who hold them. we're dismissing folks as enemies with bad intentions, as threats to be destroyed as opposed to fellow americans, human beings worth understanding. and of course the result is we're withdrawing from

conversations which is eroding our relationships, our understanding and ultimately threatening that foundational fabric of america. we know from social psychology and the experiences so many of us have had in our own lives that cultivating more positive social connections is a way to get past this social polarization crisis. so this week we want people of all stripes to come together and listen first to understand. thousands of people have committed to doing that. michael steele has committed as a leader to listen first to understand. we're so thankful for those who are modelling the way. but this week we've got in-person and virtual conversations happening coast to coast that folks can find on nationalconversationproject.org and really listening first to understand, by inviting others into the conversation by using that listening first hash tag on line that we can mend the fabric of america. >> michael steele?

>> it's such an important thing to do, and we don't do it well, mika. and that is listen. the best part of any conversation begins with that. when i was a young boy, my mother used to tell me, just shut up and listen. it makes all the difference in the world. it makes a difference in understanding, it makes a difference in communication. pierce did a program a while back and donna brazil and i had a chance to participate in it in which you have this conversation and you talk about the differences, you talk about the things that you think you may be different on but you actually aren't that far apart. and that's the difference, i think, mika, is the fact that we are a lot closer than we give ourselves credit for, but we are barred from getting there because we don't listen and we don't really learn how to communicate. >> it's hard. and willie, i think the politics of today makes it really hard,

because it's not about right and left anymore. i mean, i don't even know if it's republican and democrat, there is another side of this, i think, that's not republican. it's con voluntary lieutenavolu. >> yeah, and everybody is at their battle stations and people think the worst of each other. but what we love about you being here and your book, you don't assume the worst, you assume the best. your book title is "i think you're wrong but i'm listening," which means i disagree with you but let's talk about the things you disagree on. what can we tell people that feel we are so far apart from each other right now, and the other side believes it's not wrong, it's just evil. how do we pull back from that a little bit? >> listening isn't just a decision, it's a practice. it's something we have to do over and over and over again. we always say we need to prioritize the relationship.

there are no plans for any states to leave the union, so we're going to stay in the relationship together as citizens. even if we can start from that most basic place, okay, we're in this together, what do we want the country to look like? and just keep zooming out to a place where everybody can kind of take a deep breath. >> but i think things are so tough today that we would be arguing over what it takes to be a citizen. >> absolutely. and if we have to start there, we have to start there. >> that feels like a setback. >> beth, what do you think? >> i think it depends on what we want our trajectory to be. you can still think people are wrong at the end of the conversation. there are times we shouldn't come together. there are more important than right versus left, as mika said. so the trajectory right now is believing that people are so wrong they're a bad human being. we're going to continue to slide apart doing that. you don't even have to feel empathy. you certainly don't have to endorse where the other person is. but you can say, i respect you enough to hear you out, let's do this again and again to try to

shift back to something where we're coming in one another's directions. >> pierce, i think we're all with you on this. i think we need more conversations between people, but we seem to be ignoring thus far in this conversation about one big element, and i don't really have an answer as to how you cope with it. and it is this. the phone. basically, we text one another more than we talk to each other now, okay? and as a result of these instruments, the one that i just held up in my hand and others, we are also living in what i call a no eye contact nation. people don't look at one another the way we used to look at one another. and in order to look at one another, that's the start of a conversation. mea what's in your eyes? talk to me about what's going on in your life. how do we cope with this stuff? >> you're exactly right, and that's the irony, right, is where, on the one hand, we're more connected than we've ever

been, but also so deeply disconnected. i think honestly it starts with that practical step, with putting that phone down. we have the top ten tips for listening first conversations in sarah and beth's book. but one of those tips you'll see is be present, free of distraction. put the phone down and actually look in someone's eyes, exactly as you've said. we've seen this in our own lives. as hard as it may be, as personal as it may be in our lives, in our workplaces. they see it, too, in the workplace. we've got to come together as human beings, to look each other in the eye and realize you're not your position, you're worth understanding and we can do our part. this is certainly a grave threat to our democracy but again also so deeply personal. so we have to do better. i'm not a chicken little sky is falling kind of guy by nature,

but this is serious. this is an urgent crisis. 75% of americans agree that it is that crisis, but another 75% are willing to have conversations that bridge divides. >> willie, where i'm stuck is when facts are removed from the conversation. how can you have a conversation over something that's not true? >> right. >> i mean, the basic conversation here would be, i'm worried that the president of the united states lies to the american people. and then you have someone who says, he doesn't lie, he says what he thinks. where does that go and how can that not become a tough conversation about respecting facts? >> she has a good phrase for that. she says, i'm sorry, i don't see the truth in that. >> then where does it go from there? >> i would say, okay, what would make you believe he has lied? what sources do you find credible? what would it take at the border for you to believe the president is wrong? what would come out in the

mueller investigation that would make you care about it? i like to get behind what's shaping their feeling about him. >> you're absolutely right, the vulcanization of our media, that someone is thinking just like me does create an impasse in conversation. i think ultimately through conversation we can find that common understanding of facts to then proceed toward a solution. >> it's a challenge. >> we don't have to come to draft legislation at the end of the conversation. >> i just want people to believe that the president lies because he does. it's the national week of conversation. pierce gogman, sarah stewart, beth silver, thank you. the manhattan u.s. attorney's office has gathered

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>> kids vo: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ 0 "the wall street journal" is reporting this morning that the manhattan u.s. attorney's office has gathered more evidence than previously known in its criminal investigation of hush money payments into two women who alleged affairs with donald trump, including from members of the president's inner circle. the paper reports prosecutors have interviewed former white house communications director hope hicks at part of their campaign finance probe as well as trump's former security chief keith schiller, according to the journal. the campaign finance investigation is based on the theory the secret payments to keep women quiet were illegal contributions because they were intended to influence the election. new details of the investigation gleaned from interviews with 20 people familiar with the probe

and from nearly 1,000 pages of court documents show prosecutors had gathered information about mr. trump's alleged involvement in the payments weeks before mr. cohen asserted it in open court. trump has denied the women's claims of sexual encounters and has denied wrongdoing. jay sekulow, a lawyer to trump, declined the journal's request for comment. michael steele, this is still swirling, isn't it? >> yes, there is and there are more revelations behind it. there will be revelations as this unfolds unlike anything we saw certainly in the last cycle where folks are now, reporters in particular, are going to be digging deeper and digging harder. i think a lot of folks just kind of g of got waylaid or sidestepped in

this. you have prosecutors involved, investigators involved, individuals coming out now and telling their stories that are completing the picture. yeah, there's still a lot more ahead here. one more reason the president will divert the conversation because he does not want to talk about this. there's a reason why women come out and say this. they're not making up these relationships with donald trump, for heaven's sake. so there's a lot more here that's going to be trouble. southern district of new york, i said in the beginning, will be the biggest pain in the president's behind, much more than mueller. >> we will follow this and joining us now 2016 republican presidential president carly fee rene. her new book "find your way: unleash your power and highest potential" is in book stores today. congratulations. and also co-host yasmine is at the table. are you awake? >> kind of.

>> you're up all night. carly, great to see you. how relevant and impactful was your time on the trail in relation to this book? >> when i ran, i talked about citizens because in this country citizens are sauvignon, not presidents or government, citizens. this is the problem each american has to solve problems in their lives. the reason i wrote it now is americans feel hopeless, powerless, frustrated. they look at a political system that's broken that never solves problems. earlier in the show you were talking about trump visiting mt. vernon, george washington told us in 1789, the trouble with political parties is they will come to care only about winning and unresolved problems help politicians win. this is a book about individuals

stopping looking up at politicians and saying you have incredible potential as an individual to collaborate with others, to solve the problems that impact you in your life. it is the story of my life. i didn't have a plan to be ceo. i didn't have a plan to run for president. i started as a second. what i did was work with other people, many of whom i disagreed with sometimes, collaborated and we solved the problems. >> people look at the world now, the extent and scope of the problems, saying this is overwhelming. >> this book is about, as you say, find something close to you, something you can help to solve. you talk about themes that are in very short supply right now, humility, empathy and give-and-take collaboration. >> it's search an interesting segue from your previous segment about qualifications because listening is so important. asking open-ended questions seeking to understand as opposed to criticize. why do you believe that as opposed to you really don't believe that, do you?

there's all of the difference in the world in those two questions but my book goes one step further, actually what we need to do is collaborate together to solve problems. there are loads of problems we can make a difference on. maybe you can't solve world hunger, but you can help feed people in your neighborhood. maybe you can't fix the entire school system, but you can lift a teacher up who needs your support. >> some would say washington is completely broken. you look at what's happening at the border with regards to immigration, the president driving home his issue about thinking that immigration is a major issue right now and we have to deal with it and it's a national emergency, so to say. we look at the funding taken away from a country like honduras, $450 million taken from honduras where they say that money would provide jobs and infrastructure for people in honduras, they wouldn't be rushing to the border. >> completely broken policy. i completely disagree with the

president on virtually everything he's doing right now. but what i have observed is we have been arguing about immigration for 30 years. president bush tried comprehensive reform, got killed by the left. president obama, although he campaigned on it, didn't try legislation. he tried executive. president trump could have had $25 billion over a year ago if he had provided permanent legal status to daca. in other words, i'm not sure politicians want this problem resolved because it bets people out to vote. they get fired up. they get mad. they get mad at each other. we have so many unresolved problems. politics is about winning. it's not about problem-solving. unfortunately the dynamic of winning, whether it's politics or sports, win, lose, totally different than the dynamic of problem solving, which is always win-win. >> how do people coalesce together collectively to solve this problem in an age of

increasing mon openlization with millions of companies, pay equity, millions of americans percentage wise have not received a pay wycraise in 15, years, how do they bust up this group of monopolies? >> i start with the fundamental basics that people can solve problems closest to them. what i say is you have seen evidence of companies coming forward saying, i need to raise my minimum wage. why? people in those companies didn't focus on washington, they focused on their work every. whether it's walmart or set of examples we just seen, you can say i'm a conservative little c.

i'm not saying everything in washington is a mistake or there shouldn't be a minimum wage increase. i say doing it nationally doesn't make a lot of sense. the cost of living in louisiana is a lot different than the cost of living in new york city. some of the decisions should be pushed down. but the premise of the book is you can look at any problem and get frustrated it's not getting solved. i understand that frustration. or you can work with people right where you are and solve the problems you can touch and impact. and what happens when you start solving problems for other people, because i've seen it over and over again, you feel more powerful but you also unlock your own potential and potential of those around you and that's a fantastic feeling. >> one thing we have in common that's in the book, i will let you read it. the president has attempted to diminish us by taking our looks and either mocking them or saying something about them. you talk a lot about that in the book. it's fascinating. "find your way: unleash your

power and highest potential" in book stores today. thank you very much for being on the show. carly will be joining me on the aseptd summit on women and leadership may 10th right here in new york city. go to knowyourvalue.com for tickets. yasmine will see you tomorrow 5k9 on "morning joe" first look. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. thank you very much, mika. hi, there. i'm stephanie ruhle. this morning dh-mess. president trump departs the white house amid another departure from homeland security. maybe that's a national emergency, despite insisting everything is normal. >> never said i'm cleaning house. i don't know who came up with that expression. we hav