you can always e-mail us at ari@msnbc.com. that does it for me. thank you as always for watching. "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. watching the russians. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews of washington. nothing concentrates the mind, wrote samuel johnson, like the thought of imminent hanging. with the mueller report expected to portray his campaign as a dupe of russia, not to mention deliver alarming new evidence of obstruction is determined to now change the subject. he called the mueller investigation an attempted coup and encouraged the justice department to make war on it. >> this was an attempted coup.

this was an attempted take down of a president. we beat them. what i'm most interested in is getting started hopefully the attorney general, he mentioned it yesterday. he's doing a great job. getting started on going back to the origins of exactly where this all started. this was an illegal witch hunt. what they did was treason. what they did was herible. what they did was against our constitution and everything we stand for. hopefully that will happen. >> now it appears that william barr is supposed to deliver on the president's wishes. he said he intends to review the conduct of the investigators who opened the investigation and according to bloomberg news, he assembled a team to do just that. in the senate subcommittee, barr appeared to endorse the widespread republican and trumpian allegation that they

were improperly surveilled or to use the trumpian term, spied upon. here's the attorney general using that very term. >> we want to make sure that during -- i think spying on a political campaign is a big deal. i'm not suggesting that those rules were violated, but i think it's important to look at that. i'm not talking about the fbi necessarily, but intelligence agencies more broadly. >> you are not suggesting though that spying occurred? >> i don't -- well, i guess -- i think spying did occur, yes, i think spying did occur. >> well, let me -- >> the question is whether it was predicated. i'm not suggesting it was inadequately predicated. i need to explore that.

>> she not alleging anything improper took place, but spying could have been warranted. he used the term that the president has deliberately thrown around the law enforcement. as they point out, that is a highly disputed term relative to the trump campaign in 2016. it lends legitimacy to a trump conspiracy theory. the former director of the cia under president obama. director, spying. why is trump and his cronies including the new ag using that word? >> i was very disappointed in what he said about spying when referring to the investigation that was predicated certainly and the fbi was trying to understand what the russians were doing. u.s. intelligence agencies were spying against foreign adversaries so we can understand

the threat to our national attorney. for him to say they were spying domestically, he knows the language and terminology and know what is it connotes. it is an extra legal taking place. we know now it is incontrovertible the russians were trying to influence the outcome of the 2016 election. >> according to the language this guy, barr, i don't like him much because of this game he's playing here. a state trooper working at night along a state highway and he's watching and sees somebody is going over 70 miles an hour. is he spying on the cars or doing his job? this word spying is so ludicrously used. >> he thought about that question and answer and did say there was spying. he is steeped in the law and

should be. he knows the difference between a thorough investigation and spying against a foreign adversary. is he saying the language that trump wants to hear him use? >> i have been disappointed in barr. he shaped the narrative after the mueller report and then also had this testimony that i think was very carefully nuanced as a way to try to support donald trump's positions. he acted like a personal lawyer rather than the attorney general. >> here's what i don't understand about the strategy. if it comes out that the mueller report will show that the russians did manipulate, what sdd is it to say we shouldn't have had this investigation when it bears fruit and did dig up awful stuff?

>> look at the people who have been indicted and convicted in terms of what they did wrong. it's unclear what he was trying to do. it was unfortunate that he air gated the determination about whether obstruction of justice did occur on the part of donald trump. >> par sayou said it didn't. >> there is more for not making a determination there. bob mueller is a conservative individual and the policy is not to indict a sitting president. he wanted to have the congress and the american people make that determination about the transgressions involved. >> discussing the russia probe, james clapper was cautious about his choice of words on the activities of law enforcement. >> was the fbi spying on trump's campaign? >> they were not. they were spying on -- a term i don't particularly like, but what the russians were doing.

were they trying to gain access and leverage and influence. >> when the fbi is trying to figure out what's going on with the russians and the noise we are hearing from papadopoulos and all the rest of them about something going on, it's spying. i'm wondering spying is a perfect word if you believe they are sworn to public service for their careers. all are the bad guys and they are not like law enforcement, but spies. >> and the summer of 2016, the cia and fbi. they try to understand as much as possible. the agencies that have a responsibility carried out their responsibilities and authorities. the fbi that has the domestic role was carrying out the investigation. i had many conversations to make

sure the cia and fbi was making sure we were fulfilling our statutory responsibilities. >> it's "hardball" time. what do you think we will do when we get the redacted version? will we get enough to scare the administration? >> it's clear that donald trump and his cronies are quite fearful of what might be in there. i don't know what william barr is going to redact for various reasons. let's make one thing clear. the only thing they were clear with by the barr memo is there was not an evidentiary basis to charge with criminal experience. there is a fair amount of information there that he uncovered between the trump campaign officials and the russians. i think there is really questions about donald trump and others didn't obstruct justice.

bob mueller decided he would not be the 1 to indict a sitting president. >> once he used the term spying as legitimate law enforcement, senators attempted to clarify what he was talking about. i think it could cause everybody in the cable news ecosystem to freak out. >> i'm not sure of the connotations of that word that you are referring to, but unauthorize unauthoriz unauthorized spying occurred. >> it's clear about the colloquies here that i am not saying that improper surveillance occurred. i'm saying that i am concerned

and looking into it. that's all. >> david sits on the house judiciary and a former federal prosecutor. this guy is on a tight rope on one side. he wants to lean way to make sure trump keeps him in the job and don't look like an ass. clearly. he is saying spying? that's not spying. that's doing your job. if you are looking at the russians because they are screwing with our elections, it's law enforcement. he used that word spying. what's your thought? >> there is no question. the president said he wanted his roy cohen and he got him. he tried to shape the narrative with the four-page narrative of the mueller report who is trying to protect the president and he throws out in a casual way, spying. that's the word the president

used to promote the experience theory of the deep state. that was purposeful. he thought about it and realized what he was saying. i'm not saying anyone did anything wrong, but this was justified. what we would expect in the communities. spying suggests something unwarranted or impermissible. i'm not saying they did anything unwarranted, but he's clearly offering the president a lifeline to promote this experience theory and undermine the brave men and women who do an incredible job to protect our country and democracy. >> is the attorney general supposed to be a civil servant or a puppet? >> the attorney general is supposed to represent the united states of america. he was completely irresponsible and knows full well that that investigation began when george papadopoulos was drunk in a bar and talking about russian

e-mails. then the carter page fisa warrant. to get a fisa warrant is a lot of work. there is a lot of oversight. then it goes to the doj and then it goes to the fisa judges. if you look at federal judges, they are all really smart. the smartest ones, the most wonky and detailed become the fisa judges. the carter warrant was not given once, but three times it was ren renewed. this was not spying and not irresponsible by law enforcement and for the attorney general to say so is a stain on his reputation. i frankly don't recognize the guy anymore. i am outraged he would do that to law enforcement and the criminal justice system and the united states of america. >> a lot of people are saying that. they complained that the attorney general has not portrayed their findings accurately. they found it to be alarming and

significant and in today's hearing, barr cleared the president when the special counsel didn't clear him. >> i'm not going to discuss my decision. i will lay it out after the report is out. >> mr. attorney general, the thing is, you put this out there. the president went out and tweeted the next day that he was exonerated. that was not based on anything in the mueller report. that was based on your assessment on march 24th. now you won't elaborate at all as to how you reached that conclusion. >> i will discuss that decision after -- >> did bob mueller support your conclusion? >> i don't know whether bob mueller supported my conclusion. >> can you assure us that the key factual evidence related to charges of obstruction of justice will be available in the public report. >> believe it will. >> that's our senator from

maryland there. the whole strategy including barr who is working for them is to under mine the whole mueller report itself. what good will that do if it comes out next week even in a redacted form. there was an effort to manipulate the trump campaign. how can you say it wasn't worth it? >> don't get this investigation 199 criminal charms and five people going to prison. what mr. barr is going to do is release a report that is so redacted, it is mislading to the american people. we will have to make sure it is protected and released to the american people so people understand the facts. he tried to shape the necessary with the summary and made an obstruction of justice finding that he was unable to explain today. he auditioned for this job where he said the president can't be

charged because they are in charge of the justice department and he delivered on that commitment after being made attorney general and looking at the report for a short period of time. what we are seeing, very sadly if you believe in our criminal justice system and intelligence agencies is an attorney general who thinks he works for the president rather than took an oath to the constitution and the people of this country. >> there is breaking news this hour. rejecting the plan to turn over the trumpa tax returns by the end of the day. the irs has to come ply and shall comply. what will lawmakers do now. i will talk to the house ways and means committee. how do you fight the white house and the treasury department. one of the newest democrats to join the presidential race joins the show. medicare for all he supports and

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welcome back to "hardball." breaking news tonight. the treasury department said it will miss today's deadline from house ways and means chairman to hand over six years of president trump's personal and business tax returns. in a letter to chairman, they released moments ago, steve mnuchin wrote the committee's request raises serious issues with the constitutional scope of congressional investigative authority, legitimacy of legislative purpose and the constitutional rights of american citizens. the legal implications of the request could affect protections for all americans against politically motivated disclosures of personal tax

information regardless of which party is in power. president trump repeated his refusal using his well worn alibi. >> while i'm under audit, i won't do it. if i'm not, i would do it. while i'm under audit. i would love to give them, but i'm not going to do it while i'm under audit. it's simple. i got elected last time, the same exact issue with the same intensity which was not very much. the people don't care. >> strangest time. 64% of the american people want to see the tax returns and want him to put it out. that's not true. joining me now is dan and heidi. i want to ask you about this thing. the law said they shall. how do they get around it with this bs response tonight? >> they don't do it. the president signalled early on

that he did not want to have the returns released. the interesting thing is we didn't ask the president. we asked the commissioner of the irs. it's our position that there is clarity on this. the commissioner is duty-bound to follow the law. he swore an oath to uphold the laws of the united states and the constitution. 6103 said he shall furnish it. it's not up to the exaecutive branch or anyone in it what they consider a legitimate subject of inquiry. we are looking at whether or not irs is properly enforcing tax laws on the president of the united states and determine whether we need to take action to ensure they do. this is a legislative inquiry and there are other reasons we would like to see the returns, but this is a specific and clear inquiry intended to inform the committee. >> what's the next step.

they said no. >> we'll see. chairman neal is doing this right. he has been very deliberate about it. the next step is to speak to our counsel and make a decision. i will assure you of this and everybody. we are not going to say okay. we will assert the position and use every avenue available. >> i keep waiting for the reckoning and an issue to get to the supreme court and have them decide this president can do anything he wants. we have a dictator and a constitutional system. >> mick mulvaney told us you, the american people, will never see the tax returns and that is code for the president is willing to take it all the way to the mat. all the way to the supreme court. we were talking about this before. this could take a long time to play out, but that may be exactly where it's headed. the democrats are showing they will cave in and the white house is giving every indication that

they are not going to cave. huh mulvaney's comments and lawyers at the treasury department and the white house general counsel were in touch in anticipation of this before the formal request came through. what this looks like is a plan to stall the inevitable and they will challenge you all to take them to court. >> this is a problem. the fact that there was dialogue between the white house and treasury even before this request came in elevates the concern that the white house is trying to influence the treasury and the irs when it comes to any question with donald trump. that's the basis in the first place. >> it's not a government response. it's a personal attorney's response. the treasury secretary mnuchin would not provide an answer as to how he would handle the request for the president's tax returns.

>> we did receive the request. as i have said in the past, when we received the request, it would be reviewed by our legal department and it is our intent to follow the law. >> intent to follow the law. the 1924 law cited by ways and means chairman, upon written request, the secretary of treasury shall furnish such committee, ways and means, with any return or return information. as heidi mentioned, mnuchin did acknowledge they had been in contact with white house lawyers over the request. >> the legal department had conversations prior to receiving the letter with the white house general counsel. >> did they brief you as to the concepts of that communication? >> they have not briefed me as to the contents. that was purely informational. >> what was? >> the communication between our

legal department and the white house general counsel was informational. >> a separate hearing later today, he said his department was not taking direction from the white house. >> did the white house ask your team not to release the tax returns? >> we will not ever ask for the white house's permission on this, nor did they give us permission. as i said, we consulted, which i believe was appropriate of our legal department. >> that's a nice legal term. to get back to the question, as the journalist here, it seems to me when the law is as clearly written as that and the letter is carefully prepared by the chairman of the ways and means committee to meet the standards of the law over months, in fact, what's the supreme court going to do here? the republican supreme court? >> i'm not a lawyer, but politically speaking as the

political journalist, this is the president's red line. he made this clear from day one. delving into his personal finances is crossing that red line. we have an indication of what we might find in the tax returns ai story that i believe was grossly undercovered by all of us about the trump family's history of dodging taxes and that trump himself personally benefitted to the tune of close to $400 million in inheritance, via tax dodges from his father. if this was a trump family tradition or something that they have done over the years, what do you think we may find in those tax returns? >> they are being audited of course. i'm not being sarcastic at all. >> we have no evidence he is being audited. that's what we want to know. it's not just his individual return which is a practice of the irs, but to get an accurate view of the financial situation,

you have to look at the entities that were included in the request. we have no requested if they are under audit. >> is he being audited? >> we don't know. >> you can get the correspondent if that was ever true. >> we have a law and a we have a president. we will see who wins. from flint michigan, thank you for coming here. michael moore country. tim ryan said working class issues are in his bones and will be a central focus of his 2020 presidential campaign. he joins me to talk about those issues and more after this. alk issues and more after this ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ hey, who are you?

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>> welcome back to "hardball." the path to the white house will require, most people think, for them to win back voters in swing states and voted for trump in 2016. today's 7 of 15 democratic presidential candidates were making their pitches to a conference of union workers here in d.c. here's what a few of them had to say. >> i am announcing the largest expansion in skills training and apprenticeships in american history. >> we're need to protect working people and that includes passing and having a worker's bill of rights. >> it is time to put a stop to the so-called right to work laws

that destroy unions. >> by 2030, there is going to be 30 million electric vehicles made somewhere. i want them manufactured in the united states. i want you guys taking care of the plants that make them. >> joining us is one of those candidates. tim ryan of ohio. he is in manchester, new hampshire right now. i wonder why. that's the pitch. make it here. what do you want people who voted for trump to hear from you democrats? >> first and foremost, bring the country together. we can't do anything if we are divided. what's the plan? i think things like electric vehicles where there is going to be 30 million made in the next 10 years. how do we make the batteries and the charging stations here? and then export that to the world and make sure we cut the workers in on the deal. china is cleaning our clock and

they dominate 40% of the market and dominate 60% of the solar panel market. the president is fiddling around worried about barbara bush and everything else, we are getting our clock cleaned. i will get this country organized around the vision to dominate the industries. >> how do you beat a president running at 58% in economic job approval? >> i don't see that. the stock market is as high as it's ever been and unemployment is low, but most people can't withstand a 400 to $500 emergency. they haven't seen a raise since 1980. there is a lot of work and a lot of anxiety. we got all the statistics and need to ask what is the national stress level in the united states. what's the national anxiety level in the united states? it's going to be pretty high and a lot of that is due to

economics. >> what do you tell a voter who voted for trump. thaw made a mistake? a man or a woman in ohio for trump, how do you get them to say i made a mistake? how do you get a person to do that? >> i understand why they did it. there is so much economic anxiety. i'm not upset they did it. i'm upset he didn't deliver for them. a lot of them are structural problems that have been going on a long time. my problem with the president is he doesn't care enough to fix them. he doesn't have the attention span. he has zero plan. you go to china, they have the defense department, infrastructure plan, their soft power plan within the context of the state department. you look at the research and you look at the development and everything is pushing in one direction on how do you dominate industries. right now, we have no plan.

artificial intelligence is out there and additive manufacturing and electric vehicles wooc we nm to sit down with the unions and the educational institutions to say how do we do this. we don't need a savior. we need a grinder and someone who will bring people for an agenda who will help rebuild the middle class on life support right now. >> that all sounds good to me, but most people vote angry and recent. they hear from trump and his attorney general there are spies who under cut his campaign and the deep state is out to get him. even a guy as sophisticated as william barr trafficking in the same ridiculous lingo when they are doing their jobs, how do you counter that? >> the anxiety i mentioned, the

resentment i mentioned is that their lives have not gotten better. we had a plant close and lose 1700 jobs and five jobs for every one. you are talking about 10,000 jobs. people can't get ahead. this is what i have been trying to say for years. people in the finance centers and in the big cities that talk at cocktail parties do not understand what's happening with middle america and don't understand it that there is a recession in rural america. things are bad and you know what? the anxiety level the super high and unemployment is low. what's going to happen if the economy takes a turn for the worst? we have trillion dollar deficits in the future. the clock is ticking. we have to get busy with a real agenda that ties it back together and lifts up the middle class. we will be in trouble if the

economy has a downturn. the anxiety level will go through the roof and things get tumultuo tumultuous. >> you are not one of the elite fancy democrats that go to cocktail parties. i am serious. i think you appeal to regular people. good luck. you are in an interesting lane right now. joe biden may be joining that lane, but it's interesting. you are younger than biden. just kidding. >> you said that, not me. >> tim ryan of ohio. up next, when political law becomes more important than the law. he is like no president with his anti-immigration agenda. we will watch and talk about it in a monday. will watch and tal in a monday. ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump is consolidating power and living by the principal that he alone can fix it. according to reports, the president is tired of being manage and told no. he has taken a hacksaw to any individual or agency that stands in his way. dhs joined a slew of other departments that has been decapitated with the president looking to install people devoted solely to him. he floated the names of herman cain and they actively boosted trump on television, but they have been receiving bipartisan push back. republicans have grown uncomfortable with the two nominations. mitt romney said we can't turn the federal reserve into a partisan entity. despite that, he is being egged on by close allies. stephen miller pushed president

trump further to the right on immigration. the president's chief of staff according to the "new york times" made it his job to encourage rather than restain his instincts. richard shelby of alabama called him the most dangerous man in washington. as they grow more powerful, man has more influence over the president's decisions. it is shocking. stay tuned to find out who is the presidential whisperer. right back. hisperer right back let's be honest.

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the department of homeland security is flailing. failing to protect the skourn boa southern border and the problem is worsening. kirstjen nielsen is flailing and her department appears utterly paralyzed under ineffectual leadership. we are calling on the president to fire these incomp at the present times and the leadership and the customs border protection. they can't act effectively. >> welcome back to "hardball." we see who the boss is there. one of the most influential voices is lou dobbs. the fox business host counseled trump that ditched nielsen in recent months. tom nichols warned that the growing cad ra is the

politicization is normally only seen in aweitarian states. the commitment or family connection to the leader is more important than experience or knowledge. the former adviser to president obama. the senior editor at the atlantic and speech writer for president bush. this idea of a president who knocks over everybody and if he gets in his way, he picks a crony. >> if you just listen to that. things might be completely different in america today. that was lou dobbs's failed venture. president trump is uninterested in 9/10 of the federal government. he doesn't care what happens there. there is the department of the interior. what he focuses on is law enforcement and he has to break.

he understands and this is a point that has to be stressed again and again. he can survive his presidency or the rule of law can persevere, but you can't have both. the operations of the law expose him to so much risk. >> when he fires someone like nielsen, he is firing someone who says, but the law says. that's the infraction. >> he is looking at these people as people who is obstructing him. what is dangerous is he is essentially evading the constitution. he is not having people go in front of the congress. >> how long can we get away with that? >> the challenge for all of us, not really him, is that it's an issue that gets litigated. there is one thing we know about

donald trump. he will do the max mally illegal thing. >> he was asked if he would nominate stephen miller. >> stephen is an excellent guy. he's a wonderful person. people don't know him. he has been with me from the beginning. he's a brilliant man. and frankly, there is only one person that is running it. you know who that is? it's me. >> he talks like this. i'm the boss. >> he's eni hav he's eni havous. an acting head of department will always be cautious. at the same time he is flailing about, he has not changed immigration law or policy. the immigration is the same under president obama. illegal immigration is at high new levels with the crossings

and he has not done anything about that. >> why doesn't he say it's too lean yen and we need credible fear. we have to fix this thing because they are exploiting it. he just fires people. >> i think as a reminder, he could have done deals a year ago or 18 months ago. i think the real problem, the actual problem is that his base cares about immigration and the flows on immigration of increasing. his strategy is failing. his whole argument is if you are tough on immigrants, they won't come here. the separation policy that i find abhorrent was designed to stop immigration into the border. it's not been a deterrent at all. >> this is something i always teared about. if you let a period control the

get, he or she will introduce it up every time. innuclearization comes later. the stimulus comes immediately. you always would have incredible growth. >> the last to get away was richard nixon. >> phase two. the recession of 1958 cost him. >> i decided he was a conservative. i know what happened. >> he decided to put in a fed chairman who cranked up in time to deliver a boom in 1972, but set the country up for stagflation in 82. nixon's economic policies reelected him. that's the last king of scotland. like he said me.

this is absurd. the notion of that. >> he's picking people who will do what trump wants, but at the end of the day, he destroys the credibility of the fed. like a series of institutions, everything trump touches does end up dying. people lose faith and will think it's political and it will be problematic to keep the actual economic. >> you are a conservative. there is one principal that all conservatives believe in. limited government. what's trump on limited government? >> no limits on himself. he doesn't think that way and operate by principals, he is driven by appetite. also all he wants it for someone to deliver the policy he wants right now.

what he has done by nominating herman cain, he's the one person who has given republican senators voting for steve moore. >> he had the final downfall. you know what they found? toys. he was a kid who played with toys. literally. your thoughts on limited government. >> his organizing principal is winning. he is focusing on having a fed that is not good for the economy. >> who is the best to beat him? >> i don't know. i'm not answering that. >> thank you. up next, donald trump and french president emmanuel macron toured mount vernon, george washington's place and one of them knew a lot about the history. which leader of the country knew about it and which didn't know

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frederick douglas is an example of somebody who has done an amazing job that is being recognized more and more, i notice. >> had andrew jackson been later, we wouldn't have had the civil war. why was there the civil war. why could that not have been worked out? >> our first republican president, abraham lincoln.

>> great president. most people didn't know he was a republican. a lot of people don't know that. we have to build that up. let's use one of the pacts. >> winston churchill has a message for this current occupant of the white house. study history. study history. in history lies all the secrets of state craft. has there ever been an american president so uninterested in american history and ill prepare and ill served by history's less lessons. this ignorance not of his white house predecessors is no one's fault, but donald trump. not only has he never read a biography, but has no intention of doing so. he believes in himself, not in history. he believes the best guy to a successful presidency is what comes to him. this time a year ago, he was showing the president of france

around the placeful a couple things about that trip that depending on your way of looking at things may or may not trouble you. one, trump said george washington should have named it after himself and put up a big sign with his name on it. if he was smart, he would have put his name on it. you have to put your name on stuff or no one remembers you. one of the truly great achievements of our first president is the way he walked away after being a trump-like big shot. like after he defeated the british and winning america's independence, when the other george from england heard that, he was overwhelmed. well, then, he will be the greatest man in the world. donald trump wouldn't get that, the idea of winning worldwide respect, even from your enemy by not being interested in personal power and adoration, but more interested in your country than in yourself. that's why washington who didn't

name his plantation after himself has the city, the country's capital named after him. the second thing to remember about the visit. it was clear to those joining us that president macron knew a lot more about the place's history and the countries than the guy hosting him. that's "hardball" for now. all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight on all in. >> has anyone seen any of the report? >> i'm landing the plane right now. >> the attorney general throws gasoline on a trump conspiracy theory as he keeps the mueller report under wraps. >> i think there is a spying that did occur. >> the start of a world world county offensive to investigate the investigators. >> this was an attempted coup. >> we never had a policy for family separation. >> some anyone be able to rehab their image after implementing this cruel agenda. when