"send him down." herman cain comes into the situation room and the president says to the military leaders, you need a 9,99 plan for the bored are a border and we heard the joke fell flat. >> you, too, can read the newsletter. that does it for me on this friday morning. "morning joe" starts right now, everybody. i don't know anything about david duke. i don't know what you're talking about with the white supremacy or white supremacist. i know nothing about these people. i know nothing about wikileaks, it's not my thing. >> he knows nothing about david duke, who praises him online, he knows nothing about far right extremists, who's video he

shared, and he knows nothing about wikileaks, which he cold a tre -- called a treasure trove in 2016. along with joanne willie, we have moork barnic have mike barnicle, we have john heilemann -- >> wikileaks. >> white house correspondent for pbs "newshour" yamiche slalcido is here with us. >> do you have the clips? >> all the times with wikileaks? >> it's called a deep tease.

>> the sunday before super tuesday claimed to know nothing about david duke, claimed to know nothing about the klan. in 2000 he said he wouldn't run on any ticket that would run on a ticket with david duke. >> in the wikileaks comment that ran again and again in 2016. >> when the president throws around terms like spying, much of the country simply tunes out. when attorney general does it, it's a whole different story and now the justice department is reportedly concerned about partisan allies of the president using william barr's phrasing to suggest that something illegal occurred. >> oh, are they. >> an attorney said barr was not

trying to provide conservatives with rhetorical red meat. >> first of all, we just have to stop there. higheilemann heilemann, that's just such a total lie. everybody on the planet knew that he said that that he was talking about red meat, even though he backed off. >> he didn't back off. if who wasn't doing that, what was he doing, given there's no evidence for it whatevsoever. >> even though there was no evidence whatsoever of that improper surveillance or spying, whatever they want to call it, there's a lot of countervailing evidence that everything that was done was proper. four, five federal judges

approved the warrant, this were all republicans. you have republicans all around this process that were saying, yeah, this is something we need to look into. everything was done by the book and there were procedural safeguards, something that donald trump hates, certainly he considering to be a nuisance but there were procedural safeguards all along the way. >> the surveillance of carter page went through a fisa court. what a lot of conservatives and republicans doesn't like is the way the fisa surveillance was approved, they don't likes the basis for it, the information provided to the court. but that's the fisa's court's decision. you're arguing with fisa -- >> but also rod rosenstein, who signed off. dana bente, people who work for bill barr in the justice department. it's like people currently republicans working in the

justice department approved it. >> and fisa court wasn't just created a year ago. if you watch the clip of bill barr using the word spying, he's a smart guy. he clearly knew exactly what he was saying. >> his claim through associates in through the press is he doesn't make a distinction between spying and surveillance and who didn't mean to suggest anything improper was done. >> except for the fact that who thought that was wrong that you do that in political campaigns. really, seriously? is he that stupid? i don't think he's that stupid. there are a lot of lawyers in washington, d.c. that are shocked with what he's doing right now that have known him for years, 30 years, democrats and republicans alike are shocked how reckless and irresponsible and roy cohn like he's being. he's destroying his legacy here. what happens to those people who destroy their legacy?

their troops say thank you for destroying your legacy by showing you have no respect for the rule of law. what happens to those people in the end, meike? let me answer -- he gets fired. >> i talked to somebody who said, first of all, he was stunned at the difference between the bill barr he heard in testimony and the bill barr he knew as a practicing lawyer and a republican attorney general. and the second question he raised is epidemic in washington and in certain circles of the media and it is this -- what scares these people so much about donald trump they they give him incredibly stupid loyalty? what is it that so scares these people? >> it's something that mika and i have not understood from the very beginning. from the moment and you can go

back and look at the tape, from the moment paul ryan endorsed donald trump a couple of days after calling him a racist, we said on this show if you stand up to donald trump, he respects you. if you speak, you know, tough when you're talking ba to him, he will actually negotiate back and forth. nobody in washington, d.c. since he has become president has stood up to this guy, maybe kelly once in a while, and -- matt mattis? guess what, mattis left with his reputation in tact. anybody in the next administration would love to have mattis there. i don't understand that question, why they all fold to him. >> well, he's a bully and i think that he's -- >> bullies are the easiest people to handle actually. >> the person familiar with the

attorney general thinking hooves also u -- he was using the word spying in a technical sense. >> by the way, i see people on twitter who know better, people who have been in the news for a very long time just making foos -- fools of themselves. it's embarrassing. by the way, i respect them so i don't respond but they're making fools of themselves but it makes me sad. it makes me sad, john. >> reporter: mr. president -- >> i think what he said was absolutely true, there was absolutely spying into my campaign. when the democrats go behind the scenes and they go into a room backstage and they sit and they talk and they laugh because they know it's all a big scam, a big hoax. it called politics.

this is dirty politics so this is actually treason. >> now an attorney general who calls spying for what it is. in plate 2015, recall 2016, spying began on the trump campaign. that information leaked that led to what they consider to be legal spying. then you have the culmination of the ultimate spying where you have the fbi director spying on the president, taking notes, illegally leaking those notes of classified information. why? so they could appoint a special counsel to spy on an acting president again. >> again, i don't know about devin nunez, all right? >> skip him. >> but everybody else knows about him. like anybody that has ever met people, judges who are on the fisa court know, these are the best and the brightest. er that also pretty tough men and women. they take their jobs

extraordinarily seriously and dumb asses like that that are accusing fisa judges of being part of a conspiracy, a political conspiracy, should be ashamed of themselves. they're a disgrace to this country and this once again, and donald trump's done it all along, this once again an attack on the federal judiciary. it's that simple. >> benjamin wittes has a new piece and writes in part "the use of terminology like spying and spying on a political campaign is bound to play into ongoing conspiracy theories promoted by the president himself about the origins of the russia investigation. when the attorney general has questions about the conduct of his department, the proper thing to do is not to dangle those questions in a congressional hearing in a fashion bound to stir up conspiracy theories.

in "the daily beast" rick wilson calls bill barr the most dangerous man in america. he writing in part barr won the job by writing a memo before he knew a single fact contained in the mule aeller report. as attorney general barr would protect this president from charges of obstruction. barr knew then and knows now that he has an audience of one, donald trump. like barr's job application memo, every word of his testimony this week screamed out obedience to the president. and form are soer senior advises in a new piece for nbc news, it is painically clear that the attorney general cannot and should not be the arbiter of

what congress and ultimately the american people can see when it comes to the mueller report. >> david ignatius, we've talked to people in washington who are depressed by the decline of attorney general barr, way he's performed publicly for donald trump's benefit. what insights can you give us on barr as well the washington legal community's reaction to this performance this week? >> joe, barr was supposed to be the professional, the person that had justice department experience who could be counted on for at least professional judgment, measured judgment, and i think the reason the people have been so shocked is that in his comments especially about spying on the trump campaign, he is feeding a narrative on the

right that essentially there was an effort at a coup d'etat against president trump that was run by officials of the fbi, officials of the intelligence community, and it's the most poisonous narrative that you could have. and the idea that the chief law enforcement officer of the united states with all these crazy rumors swirling would feed them with these loose comments shock people. it's a sign in part, as you said earlier, how frightened bob must be. he's clearly not a disciplined speaker. but i note the reaction overseas. i've been traveling a little built abroad recently and people watch what's happening. one person said to me, a prominent asian, your country is lost. i think that's increasingly the perception. another said to me we're concerned about our ability to continue cooperating with a country that's in this much

chaos. so the stakes are high. i hope bar understanr understan. i hope it's getting through to him that he made a beneficial mistake. >> the attorney general took a bad situation, made it much worse not only with domestic implications and he's going to be proven to be a liar, and he knows that. >> it must have been worth it to him. >> he's already going to be outed as sanitizing the mueller report. so now that that's getting -- he's close to getting, posed the -- exposed there, he launches a new lie, throws bait out to the most radical anti-law and order people in america and sends a message across the globe that this is a country that is spiraling out of control because of its president. >> barr's claim that there was spying is rightly getting the

headline but the follow-up questions that took place in that hearing when someone asked him what evidence do you have of spying? he said, "i have no specific evidence" and went on to say "i have questions and concerns," which makes him more reckless to makes the comments with no evidence. and the he said i'll go a step further, ool say it wi'll say i illegal, it was unprecedented spying and it was illegal. he's going to ride that as long as he can. >> attorney general barr could not pro vovide oneson single bar why he said there was spying in the trump cam pan. and the devin nunez comment that james comey because he made

notes that there was spying and in the fbi they're taught -- taught to make notes and document what's going on. it goes back to this idea that president trump as the core of who he is is someone who likes to traffic in conspiracy theories. he started his political life by saying president obama might not have been born in this country. then during the republican nomination process, he was talking about ted cruz's father possibly being involved in the murder of president kennedy. so i think what you have is someone who has seen conspiracy theories work to his political benefit and that's why you're going to see not only the president but the people around him who want to stay in his orbit are going to echo his own behavior. >> except now the conspiracy theory is echoed with the

support of the attorney general's office. >> he was asked do you have any proof? the attorney general responds, "not really, i don't have any pro proof." >> that's what roy cohn toll joe mccarthy to throw out charges that would inflame the right- g right-wing base when you have no evidence of the charges. >> the testimony of barr and the clarity they brought of -- i don't know what has happened to him but what he is now is very clear. i think beyond this discussion, some of the most striking thanksgiving that dthings that day were giveaways. on the striking of the affordable care act, well, donald trump wants to have another program.

they asked him about the drug problem and opioids. he talked about why we had to build a war, nothing do with opioids. he's making the kind of arguments that the white house communication director or the white house press secretary would make. he's been, to your point, mika, fully trumpified and to the extent that he's operating not as an attorney general a quasi independent head of the justice department but is acting as a purely political hack for the president. it was on painful display this week. >> so what are the operating theories? why would a man with a good reputation threw t-- through th years, why would he completely drive his reputation into a ditch? make no mistake, it is driven into a ditch and when the facts come out, his reputation will be sullied forever. what are the operating theories

in washington why he would do this? >> i think the biggest is that there's been a counternarrative being spun for more than a year now by republicans that this was an improper, unethical, deep state attempt to reverse the election results. that's what many republicans believe, that devon nunez is the leader of that group but you read that in the conservative press. they've got a lot of memos they spin back and forth. >> but why would barr go there when he knows the process was proper, he understands the role of fisa judges better than anybody else, he knows the surveillance would not have been approved, would not have got i don't know -- gotten past four or five republican-appointed fisa judges. he knows that. why would he throw that theory out, sully his reputation when

he more than anybody else knows this was a legitimate inquiry? >> there are two possible answers. one is that when he read the mueller report, which we still have not, he looked at the evidence and decided that there was far less that he expected of wrong doing and that he had questions about how the investigation got started in the first place. i think the more troubling one and likely the more accurate is that his good sense has been broken down by being in donald trump's justice department as attorney general. he is surrounded by people who believe these conspiracy theories. it takes strong character in a period like this to resist lies. you have to stand up. you have to take risks. and barr, looking at him, i felt looked like a weak attorney general who is not prepared to dig in and tell the country the truth, even though it would risk meaning the president was angry at him. he didn't seem like the man to do that.

>> so let's have a little clean-up operation here. i'm going to bring up two names of people when the time came that their country called on them to do the right thing, they did it. attorney general jeff sessions. he did what was required by law. he did what was required by the ethics of the situation. and, yes, i'm going to say it, matthew whitaker. when the president of the united states pressured matthew whitaker to do something that he knew to be um proper, he stood up to the president of the united states. let that be said. >> and what happened to both of this many? >> they're both gone. i'm just saying -- >> reputation in tact, to an, te -- to an extent.

>> mabb wiybe william barr like job -- >> he's the attorney general of the united states. he's working for wrong person. >> so he serves conspiracy theories. what is worth that? >> it's not that he's had this job for a long time. he kind of begged his way into the job. he campaigned for it. it raises the deeper question. before he became attorney general, bill barr's reputation was fine. but he got begged to get the job, now has the job and is doing these things. what would make you want to put yourself in a position where your reputation was almost inevitably going to be tarn eshd -- tarnished in the did the job for donald trump? >> i was talking to mika about this last night. i saw your father as he was getting older and said maybe it would have been exciting to go back into the administration

and -- >> he was asked. >> your father would have never compromised who he was and his sense of public service and there's so many people out there that would do that. i've heard stories of other officials speaking truth to power. george schultz, when the former epa chief went out and talked to the hoover institute and everybody was around and -- who was the former epa chief? what was his name? house of correctio how quickly we forget. >> under reagan? >> no, no, under trump. scott pruitt. >> i thought you were talking about -- >> they're trying to get right by the trump administration and everybody sitting around and they're talking how great, pruitt, thank you for coming. george schultz walks up to him, looks at hum aim and goes, you ,

you are the single least impressive human being i've met. >> i think your dad said that to joe. >> once. he loved him. now to some other stories making headlines this morning. a federal grand jury in california has indicted lawyer michael avenatti on 36 new charges, including alleged fraud, perjury, and embezzling millions against clients. they come with a possible max sentence of 335 years in prison. michael avenatti also faces separate charges in new york for attempting to extort $20 million from miknike. he tweeted, i'm entitled to a

full presumption of innocence. >> and actor jussie smollett is su sued. >> the entire city of chicago is ang angry, the police chief, the officers, the mayor. everybody is angry. so who pressured this state attorney to drop those charges? >> i have no idea, but i think it raises some questions about -- one of the things that peoples is expect is that there

was some defect in the way that -- even though he -- there was a case and that somewhere along the line there was something that in the process of putting the case to the, there was -- putting the case together, there was something done wrong. >> that's not right. >> she recused herself, the state attorney. >> something happened from higher up. >> but i don't know the answer. >> what's your gut? >> somebody with power stepped in. >> i think the incoming mayor of chicago, i don't think she has commented on this yet. >> somebody in a powerful position got this many to drop those charges. i don't know who it was. >> you think? >> no, i'm saying there's somebody that obviously didn't mind offend beiwffending the en chicago police force, the mayor and the entire country. >> and the deputy's son faces

charges is facing three counts of simple arson on religious buildings according to the state fire marshal. if convicted, he could face up to 15 years of prison on each charge. and if you have an amazon echo product, alexa may not be the only one listening. we knew this. >> jack knows this. >> listening to your conversation. >> kate told jack, who at the time was 8 years old, she pointed to alexa and goes "the chinese and russians are listening." since then jack would go into every room, he walks into a room and unplugs it. and we don't plug it back in. >> i don't know about the chinese but jeff bezos is listening for sure. >> it's reported thousands of

people listen to voice recordings captured by that echo speaker in homes and offices every day. >> it seemed like such a good idea at the time. >> amazon says it takes custom privacy seriously and reviews only a small number of random recordings. >> hey, alexa, buy me some bad idea jeans. an old snl reference. >> according to bloomberg, unless something criminal is heard, it can't be reported. >> they're listening, the chinese are listening, the russians are listening, the nsa is listening. >> do you want your product in home, in your bed radar looroob they're listening to everything you say? >> any person i've spoken to

that's, like, in -- well, i won't say the agencies they're in, but let's just say that's in intelligence and military, they mack you when you go talk to them, you turn off your phone because they say the russians and the chinese are listening. these are microphones and theys willen. >> everybody is on hot mic all the time. what's freaking people out more and more, increasingly you go and open up google and type up a search term. no matter how random, you've been talking about some weird topic that's not a normal thing, you start typing it in, you know what i mean -- >> wow. >> a topic that's not an obvious predicted where it pops ut p -- this happens to you, too. when you start to type in red sox, the question comes up about the batting average in 1946 it's because the thing has been

listening to your conversation for last ten minutes. >> it happened yesterday. remember when i was running and i was trying to break a nine minute mile, i never told anybody, and i started getting life insurance, are you over 40 and trying to run a nine-minute mile? and guess what, i stopped running and now i'm running and drinking and shooting heroin and -- i'm joking, kids, i'm joking kids. >> stop talking. >> it doesn't come up as soon as i stopped running. >> the lesson is don't run. >> exactly. >> still ahead on "morning joe," he takes his queues from fox news but not apparently when it comes to making a krking a corr. the fake news remains firmly

planted on trump's twitter page. >> fake news, donald, fake news. >> congressman hakeem jeffries joins us plus former u.k. minister tony blair. we'll will be right back. tony . we'll will be right back ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ so, every day, we put our latest technology and unrivaled network to work.

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the real approval rating was only 43%. the president's misleading tweet still remains on his twit ater page even after fox news made an on-air correction. >> that was not accurate, which fox news would like to correct. 58% of respondents approved of the president's handling of the economy. that portion was right. it also showed that 55% of respondents approve of the president. that is not correct. the 55% is those who have an unfavorable impression of president trump. >> so it wasn't just an error, it's that he took the number that was the unfavorable and turned it into the favorable. it's the die a mametric.

>> so he's once again creating his own reality. >> it really reminds us that the president is someone that is constantly watching tv and constantly taking the things he watches on tv and making policies, making real long-term decisions for the united states based on that. in this case while the president and the people in the white house like to say the people isn't obsessed what the people think about him in the polling, the president grabbed on to this poll because he was going to be able to say 55% of the country backs him, which of course isn't true. we often talk about the fact that there are republicans that approve of the republicans overwhelmingly. i was talking to a republican consultant who said we should start looking at the number of people who call themselves republicans because a lot of people around the country have looked around tdonald trump and

said i don't want to be a republican anymore. more and more people have been identifying as independent as the years go on but that person told me the republican consultant said we should specifically look at the poll, which was after the president was elected. >> he lies all the time. >> what gets me is the fake "time" magazine covers he has up in his country club. >> that may be the best thing about him, the fake "time" magazine covers. we should do fake sporting covers about you. >> broke the nine-minute mile. >> willy understands that a lot of people who have followed my sporting career is the anniversary of -- >> when you won the masters in

'87. >> why don't you ever wear the green jacket? >> i don't like to wear my gold nfl hall of fame jacket. >> you guys are making things worse. >> i get it. >> still ahead, former trump adviser steve bannon appears to be going after the only office holder in the world who may have as much power as the president of the united states, the pope. richard engel will explain that next on "morning joe." we switched. i switched. we switched. i switched to chevy. i switched to chevy. we switched to chevy. we switched for value. for family. for power. it was time to upgrade. i switched from ram to chevy. see why people are switching to chevy.

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joining us live from london, chief foreign correspondent richard engel. good morning. you've got new reporting on steve bannon, a man you got to sit down with. >> reporter: we didn't just get to sit down with him, we walked around rome with him. steve bannon is anything but ambitious. you know, he was obviously very influential as the campaign chairman to help president trump into the white house, and now he has his sights set on a new target. he is going after the pope. he wants the pope to change, he wants to reform the vatican. he says unless the vatican deals

more effectively with the sex abuse crisis that it is going to go bankrupt. it is not just steve bannon, a lot of the same people, the same movement, the same tactics that were used to push president trump into the white house are now being used against pope francis. we have a long report on this coming up this weekend. here's a little bit of our reporting. >> reporter: why you? why is steve bannon now taking reforming the vatican, reforming the papacy? >> because nobody else has stepped up to do it. >> reporter: his goal is to save the catholic church from the pope, who he says is failing to deal with the biggest crisis facing the church today. >> my problem with the pope today is about this crisis on pedophilia, that they are not treating this as a crisis. >> they weaponize the sexual abuse crisis to try to undermine his authority, his leadership

and the affection people have for hum im as pope. >> reporter: bannon says he's spending about $1 million of his own money to lease and restore this 800-year-old monastery. bannon plans to build an apartment for himself here and live here part of the year in this monastery of bannonism. he wand to change america first, now the people and beyond. how big is this campaign? >> it's big. it's kind of shocking. this don't like lgbt people, they don't like people of color. they don't seem to like the poor very much, even though jesus spent most of his time with them and the gospel. >> excuse us, we're having a little bit of a fire alarm test here, which you might hear in the background. but this movement is happening. it is big, well funded and organized. and did you just see that monastery? it's incredible. bannon wants to turn that into a

school to teach a new general race of populist, quote, judeo christian people. >> and that alarm there, we'll let you go. >> by the way, on assignment with richard engel airs sunday night at 9 a.m. eastern. >> is he going to blocks in the monastery and put as cid there, too? >> mika? >> yes. >> this is your church, this is my church. >> i know. >> this guy, steve bannon, he clearly so opposes doing anything to help the poor, the disenfranchised, the other. that's the basis of his attack on the catholic church and the people because this particular

pope stands for those people. >> i love this pope because he's doing this work. >> the interesting between -- >> still ahead, president trump hasn't even formally nominated him but a growing number of republicans are voicing oppositions of putting herman cain on the federal reserve board. we'll talk about that next with mike allen. h mike allen ♪ limu emu & doug what do all these people have in common, limu?

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look at that beautiful picture, sunrise over the nation's capitol morning. >> makes you want to hold the song of someone you love, mika. >> you're a little mean to him. >> i'm not mean to him. >> that's my life. >> that is been pointed out that union mean to everybody? >> yes.

>> mika's being professional. >> i'm being professional. you know it's different off the air. >> icy cold. i tried to touch her knuckle, she said "stay away from my erogenous zone." i think that's defining it a little too tightly. >> jen. >> jen, what am i supposed to do here? >> he's facing growing republican opposition. four republican senators now have suggested they would vote against herman cain if he was nominated citing either his lack of experience or the sexual harassment allegations against him, which he denies. that includes kevin cramer, lisa murkowski, mitt romney and cory gardner of colorado. joining us, mike allen.

is it dead in the water? >> hold on, hold on, hold on. can we have mike allen? mike, are you so out of practice? >> i'm in the game. happy masters friday! >> yes! boom! >> there it is. >> what do you say now? >> willie, you're going to be a little verklempt about this but "morning joe" can bust out that touching farewell tape for herman cain once again. not only is he not going to be confirmed, hooe's not going to nominated, the math is not on his side. trump wins with some of his picks. some say he was put out there just to make stephen moore, who actually was nominated, look more plausible. but what trump loves about it is

he loves infuriating the sophisticated and showing he's busting up these institutions. mitch mcconnell said the majority leader a message. he had a pen and pad with reporters and said the white house might want to before they float a name, they might want to, a, vet the person before the name is floated and, b, maybe talk to some senators who have to conform them. m mitch mcconnell was asked were you surprised about this pick? and he said "surprised on a daily basis." >> what about stephen moore? any republicans -- >> so far they haven't. the lack of vetting, he's had to pay some back taxes. but the president loves stirring the pot, loves this conversation

and loves being able to put out there things that no one else would. >> stephen moore having a lot of questions raised about him pup nope, he has said that he never supported the gold standard yet there are clips left and right of stephen moore telling audiences over the past self years we should go back to a gold standard. >> i think at the end of the day what it comes down to is your personal chemistry with the president. the president can point to so many clips of him saying i love wikileaks, and then clips saying i'm unfamiliar with wikileaks, know nothing about it. you need to check with senators and your counterparts on the hill before you make a selection because there might be republicans who say stephen

moore, even if he's said these things, we're okay with him but it's going to be up to the president to forge a relationship with lawmakers to get that man through. we're seeing republican senators pushing back even in a small way to this president. the last couple of years question has been asked why are the republicans in lock step with the president? in this case we're starting to see a little bit of a break because republicans are looking at their own future and saying we cannot have someone like herman cain at the federal reserve and are pushing back at the president. >> do you think that's right, mike allen? >> "the washington post" says the president was having a meeting in the situation with generals, other military officials. he heard herman cain was in the building. this would happen in no other white house, this rolling craps game, as someone has called it. he called herman cain into the

situation room with the generals, he told the generals you need a 999 plan for the mexican border. the "post" says unsurprisingly the joke fell flat. >> wow. >>lallen, thank you very much. >> coming up on "morning joe," back in 2016, donald trump said he loves wikileaks. now he's changed his tune telling reporter he knows nothing about wikileaks. plus today marks 100 days sits democrats took control of the house. hakeem jeffries will have the report card and explain what's next. and jeffrey goldberg joins the table and more with david ignatius. we're back in just a home. -- moment. moment

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all you have to do is take a look at wikileaks. >> some brutal stuff. new stuff. i love wikileaks. they want to distract us from wikileaks. they've got to start talking about wikileaks. you know wikileaks just actually came out.

the wonder of wikileaks. oh, we love wikileaks. boy, they have really, wikileaks. they have revealed a lot. wikileaks. wikileaks. the wikileaks revelations. wikileaks is fascinating. did you see another one, another one came in today, this wikileaks is like a treasure trove. >> that came out on wikileaks. they got it all down, folks. wikileaks. wikileaks. >> reporter: do you still love wikileaks? >> i know nothing about wikileaks. it's not my thing. and i know there is something having to do with julian assange, i've been receiving what happens with assange and that will be a determination i would imagine mostly by the attorney general, who is doing an excellent job. so he'll be making a drm nati determination. i know nothing really about him. it's not my deal in life. >> this is someone who doesn't give a damn about his job.

>> that's awfully harsh, a harsh assessment. >> truth. >> i quote david gavin who said the republicans are really good liars. on the other end of that spectrum, donald trump, just the worst liar. generally bad at it. he's at bad at lying as i would be at jai-alai if i decided to go to miami. >> great game. >> it's like contriburicket. >> when trump tweets something, they say there's a piece of tape for everything that contradicts. he just tries to get through a moment. he's goisays i'm going to say t thing that gets me through the

moment. >> people need to understand he doesn't care from one moment to the next, let alone the fact that there's a country to run. it's friday. with us we have national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc john heilemann. >> he's so happy. >> columnist and associate editor for "the washington post" david ignatius, and joining the conversation, editor in chief of the "atlantic" magazine, jeffrey goldberg is with us. >> he's here. >> and former district for alabama joyce vance and columnist for "the washington post" joyce rubin. >> it is like the night of a thousand stars here, except it's at the morning. i want to talk about your readers of "the atlantic." i read the article "the fundamental legitimacy of donald trump." it's premature, i disagree with it. there are a lot of assumptions

he makes i find to be faulty, but it is an important read to stop all of us from getting too far ahead of ourselves. but the thing that actually, even though i disagreed with it, the thing that cheered me the most was the fact that it was the most read, at least yesterday afternoon. it was the most read article on a site where i would guess 80% of the people who read it probably disagreed with it like me. i think that says something about your readership and i hope for people who are intellectually curious and actually read things. >> it's going to be your perfect magazine. look, we contain multituds. if "the atlantic" has to be the last place in america where can you see competing ideas battling it out, then fine. i hope it not but i'm very, very

happy to publish pieces like that. there will be pieces countering that piece today, tomorrow and the next day. he makes an interesting point. he does say institutions seem to be holding and let's just take a deep breath before we talk about the dawning of fascism. on the other hand, you could look at the news this morning on ice and ask yourself how long can institutions battle back against this kind of strange requests and odd ideas coming out of the -- >> i think institutions can hold as best they can but people are not perfect. >> even if the story you're talking about, ins -- incisi institutions did push back and held. >> until they can't take it anymore. >> this is leaking obviously because that department had just been overturned. >> while we're promoting "the

atlantic," can i just say perhaps the greatest writing since hamlet was kaitlin flanagan's takedown, at least hamlet. >> it was so good. >> how good is she? >> she's the best. >> she's an extraordinary writer. >> she's an extraordinary writer. >> it's completely delicious. she knows exactly where the soft underbelly of the ruling class is and she just takes her scalpel and starts carving. and it had the ring of truth. she understands the desperation and anxiety of the elite that very few people do. >> did you read this willie? >> of course. >> and ends up immersing itself in the what -- >> dennison school. >> online most people agreed it was excellent. >> yeah, we had a left/right agreement that something's

wrong. >> you have a new piece on ivanka trump? >> we do indeed. it opens in the oval office -- elena is interviewing the president and ivanka just happens to wander in and the president and ivanka act as if this is a surprise, not a setup. pt the remarkable thing is that it becomes very clear that donald trump does actually favor one child over another. as a parent, i find that such an odd thing to read, someone articulating his love of his children that way. >> david ignatius, what's your take on the arrest of julian assange and perhaps his extradition to the united states? >> the first thing to say is the indictment of julian assange was crafted very carefully so as to avoid the major claim that assange is going to make, which is that he's a journalist and this is an attack on press

freedom. the indictment charges him with helping chelsea manning to crack a password for getting into a system for which she wasn't authorized to hide her tracks. it's almost like a burglary case with computers. the information was never on atten -- obtained. so it doesn't go to the journalistic was in of publishing information and any government steps to suppress it. even though the government took those stps, there's already quite a debate about assange. is he ajournal journalist, doe deserve protection? the head of the reporters committee for freedom of the press and he said no newsroom lawyer would ever tell a journalist at a legitimate news organization to do what julian assange did, to aid in cracking a password, breaking in a system.

there's no legitimate news organization in the u.s. at least where that kind of behavior would be tolerated. so that's just a caution for people who want to say julian assange is a journalist, my gosh we shall have to protect him. here's the head saying take a deep breath, it's inconsistent. >> the one he was helping crack the code and then as a member of the united states military, actually committed acts of treason whose sentence is commuted? you commute that sentence? and now trust me, i am not defending julian assange here but there is just no consistency that after the united states government commutes the sentence of the military person who commits treason, you're now going to indict the person that

helped the military person commit treason? i don't get it. >> i hear your point about commuting a sentence happens for a lot of different reasons. >> i don't get it. why did barack obama commute that sentence? >> i don't think we know for certain. there were concerns about her treatment while in prison, but being commuted as a sentence does do -- >> why would you commute the sentence of a member of the united states military who committed treason against the united states of america? >> yeah. so i hear that but the point about commuting a sentence is it doesn't do anything about the underlying conviction. you're still a felon, you've been convicted, you spent a certain amount of time in prison. commuting a sentence reduces the amount of time you're sent to

prison. it do it doesn't speak to the underlying crime. in many ways as we read this indictment, assange is directing chelsea manning. when she says i'm done, there's nothing left, he says oh, there's a lot more can you do for me. he's in a much more direie dire role. she's working in many ways at his behest. >>why would the president of theithe united states bring a guy back who is in the middle of the russia scandal? >> i don't know. i have no idea. >> i would say you just stay -- >> in your possibly untidy room. >> and mika thinks she has it bad with me. >> as you know, donald trump doesn't know anything about wikileaks, barely heard of it so

he's just getting advice from other advisers, this is a new subject for him. >> david ignatius, can you give us any insight into what's exactly going on here, the chelsea manning sentence commuted and now the indictment of julian assange? >> i think the concerns about her treatment in prison may have been an issue. the assange indictment issue has been pending since donald trump became president. the obama administration had decided this really wasn't worth the trouble, that there were too many potential press freedom issues, why get into this, so they let it go. trump took another look at it. one little known fact is that in early 2017 assange conducted what amounted to indirect plea bargain negotiations with the

justice department, where he offered to vet some very sensitive cia cables that he was in the midst of publishing, they were known as the vault 7 files, cia hacking, offered to vet them in exchange for the justice department thinking about a way a he could get back and make an agreement. those fegnegotiations broke off april 2017. but it's another weird little chapter in this story. i think finally the justice department found a way to prosecute this case in this very narrow way, where it's about aiding the hacking of a computer by chelsea manning, supplying technical experies. as i said earlier, they're trying to make it a burglary case, not a freedom of the press case so they decided to bring it on the day before the statute of limitations expired, let it be said. >> assange's supporters are

making the case that assange is trying to help uncover information, classified as it may have been. i'm always sympathetic to first amendment arguments but what do you make of the idea that he wasn't acting just as a journalist but was abetting someone to break in a computer? >> this is the conversation we've had with other people, people who are entitled to do acts. if you as a journalist want information that i have and you hold a gun to my head to get me to tell you that information, you're probably subjected to criminal liability. if you just ask me and i tell you about it, there's no problem. so journalists are criminally liable just like anybody else who does that. >> jennifer reuben, your piece

"after barr's betrayal, d.o.j. and fbi employees must speak out." what are you hoping to hear? >> i think they certainly have grounds for complaint. not on did mr. barr use the spying word, which is obviously a loaded political term, but he in essence impugned the integrity of his on people. who was doing the spying? apparently the fbi. who was at fault? >> the very people who report to him. i wonder what is going through the mind of chris wray, o has been vilified and his people have been vilified by the president. now trump runs with it and calls his opponents treacherous, calls them traitors. owe it's quite a thing for someone in barr's position.

he is spes to upposed to be lea these people. he really owes those people app apology. it will be very interesting to see if we start hearing unsourced or on-the-record sort of leaks and complaints and things starring o come out. i wouldn't be surprised. >> jeffrey, i don't understand him doing this. he knows about the fisa judges, he knows the procedural safeguards that were taken. he knows there was no conspiracy. why would he set himself up to be a fool in the end? >> because he's been pulled into the reality distortion field of the white house? we don't know. we see people whom we respect who get involved in the administration and wind up saying very odd things. i stepped all the way back because i read a lot about the

history of the fbi and you have an organization that has been venerated by the republicans, much more so than the democrats. you have main stram republicans like william barr being cast as some sort of enemy and this is really without much historical precedent. i think ten years from now we look back, we'll think just how odd moment like this really are. >> and, jennifer, how extraordinary as republicans we spent our adult lfs defending the cia against attacks from democrats, what we saw as attacks against democrats. i mean, hell, you couldn't bring up the topic at any campaign without talking about the and us fighting against ourselves. same thing with the fbi, an attack on the good men and women of law enforcement. you name it.

that was along with mighting the soviet union and fighting that cold war, standing behind our int intel in our world view, no, everything's switched and you've actually got republicans, so-called conservatives, undermining our intel community sounding like vladimir putin. >> welcome to the world of donald trump. you're right, not on during the cold war but think of ul all thes o over the implementation of the national security surveillance act. who was deeveneding this? who was saying we need these actual they have they have not seen abuse. that was the republicans. and now it flipped.

it not flipped because of some actual discovery, it because their loyalties are now to this if you go and i want to say something just going back very briefly to assange. the reason why it's so incredible that we see those clips is not a gotcha mom, trump lying now that he said those things. it because he's so carefully identified himself with assange and the russians. that's the proof that all of us were pointing to, that he willingly, eagerly accepted help and he was signatures nling to come on, difficult me more emails, wikileaks. he might as well said give me more vladimir putin. he teamed up with a sworn enemy of the united states, an opponent, in order to take an election.

he just thought that was part of the game. >> so, jo us tell us how this ends. >> restraining order. >> all right, that was a leading question. we know how it ends, right? barr understands the process. he understands how rigorous fisa judges are when they are asked to define. >> he knows there was no violation of law in this process. and when attorneys they don't just walks out of their office, they prepare. he knows, as you say, that d.o.j. did this right. >> joyce vance and jennifer reuben, thank you both. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> my ill-fated run for president, which i recommend people do that if they're

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prime minister tony blair joins us. >> good to have you. anything going on in britain you can fill us in on? >> everywhere you go in the world today, this is a conversation, a competition as to whose politics is crazier. i can assure you we're winning hands down. >> so what we don't understand is how, first of all, it continues on and drags on without resolution but, secondly, how does theresa may survive so many votes that would have destroyed any other prime minister before? >> it's a great question. basically because the conservative party is fundamentally divided, as indeed all of british politics is. even though there may be moves to remove her as prime minister, there isn't agreement as to what comes next and what is to be done next and that helps keep her there. the problem with brexit is very simple. can you get out of the political structures but do you leave the economic structures of the european union, the single market and customs union, which are economic structures that

britain has been participating in for four and a half decades. you have all sorts of relationship of commerce and business that have grown up on the basis we're in that market. the question is do you get out of those economic structures, in which case you're going to have a painful process of adjustment or do you stay in them, having let the political structures, in way case you're playing by england's rules. those choices will be run in parliament where a proper discipline with the possibility of going back to the people. >> the first time i realized this was a very complicated issue was when mika and i were talking about some of other friends who moved over from manchester. every time i brought up margaret

thatcher's name you would have thought i was talking about the devil herself. i said you're obviously against brexit, aren't you? she wasn't on a 20-minute tear. no. yes, we're for brexit and went through a lot of topics and said we don't want to be tied, we want to control our own destiny and not have the eu tell us how to control our borders. there is no way to divide the immigration question from the economic question. >> it like politics everywhere in the west, it's being driven by cultural questions and economic questions, it's different by people who feel they're casualties of the government, not benefiting from it. this is a very sharp

generational divide. if you look at the over 65s, two-thirds voted for brexit. you look at the under 35s, two-thirds or even more voted in favor of staying in europe. >> a parallel with trump voters. >> absolutely. can you see it all over the western world. you have a populism of the right, a populism of the left as well and they're in strong competition with each other. i think populism really born of pessimism. people look at the future, they're not sure the next generation will do as well as this generation and this is what's breaking up politics everywhere. >> one final question and then i'll get off the pitch. my concern from afar with europe for several years as been the fact that europe's never charted a middle course on immigration. we actually are charting a middle course on immigration, regardless of what donald trump said, barack obama actually was tough on the bore der, maybe su

the border was controlled and borders actually meant something. that doesn't seem to be the case in europe and because there's never a center ground, because a politician in germany or france can't take a center ground on immigration and talks about borders without being called a neo nazi, then you just cede the entire pitch, we'll see, to the far right. >> yup. >> do you see that as a problem? >> absolutely. i think that is the challenge. it's a really good point but what is happening today is that i think there is a sense that you've got to put control and order around the immigration question because if you don't have rules you get prejudices so actually today europe is strengthening its external borders and even on the freedom of movement question. within european there is a lot of desire for change to make sure, for example, companies aren't importing cheaper labor to undercut local wages and so

on. so i think there is a way through. people are arguing in the urchlt kncht today, if we get to another rechbd, europe should also think again, particularly around the questions of immigration. the most people in europe, the underlying issues that gave rise to brexit are nationwide but europe had the referendum. europe should also understand that people want to be part of the cooperative system of europe but they want to do it as nation states. this is the tension that's always been there at the heart of the european project. people always talk about europe breaking up. it hasn't and it won't. >> as you know well, mr. priept has given theresa may and the -- for american viewers who haven't followed every parliament and

there was a referendum and people voted to leave europe. why is theresa m the simple answer is when up look at the detail of brexit, there are differe different. the question is what form of brexit? and with the decision of this magnitude and with three years of this mess, is it sensible to ask for the final say on whatever deal parliament finally grief p agrees to go backs to but i think we've got a time now to run a process ond get out of this. whatever happens, britain will rewhat's your best guest of what happens on october 31st or before that? >> my best guest is when parliament finally takes a

decision, it's going to. >> we're experiencing globally a rise or rerise of trablizationou the fears of people feeling culturally dislocated or is this just a process of getting older? this is a universal situation, we have this in the united states, but i'm wondering how you convince people that the end is not -- >> this is the question in western politics everywhere. you've got to deal with both aspect. we were talking about immigration. you have to have proper rules and controls around it. there's nothing wrong with saying i believe immigration has been a great this evening for my country and for this kr people want to know there's discipline and order in the system. you've got to play defense around culture and imt grags. the second thing is you've got

to understand and deal specifically with the communities and the people left behind. the problem with the popless is that what they do is put forward these kind of squlout sued solutions but and are mr about i think the single biggest challenge we're all going to face is the technical lodge kak and the political debate doesn't much focus on how we prepare for that and how do we prepare for that is this. >> prepare your rej strip, repair the infrastructure and work out how you explain to people the potential benefits and how you deal with -- the progressives will say there's

got to be a role for government and the state for helping people through that process. but mind you, the progressives will only win this argument if they've got a modern view bhaf government has to do and they're not fighting on an old style leftism. >> david ignatius has a question. >> reporter: mr. prime minister, theresa may, the tore but what about the leader, jerricky corbin? is it time for the labor party to find new leadership that could make labor again a governing party that could find some way out of this mess? >> well, it not a huge secret that myself and jeremy corbin aren't in agreement to what should happen to the labor party. the answer is, yes, i think it would be just the about and if

it does that, by the way, it can succeed but it's got to do that with speed because right now the other thing that's happening with parties on the left right around europe at the moment is they tend to move further to the left in response to the move to the right of the traditional right-wing parties and this is leaving a big space in the center that's uninhabited. look, my basic experience in politics is populism with the left fights the populism with the right and the right wins. >> when things are going badly here, when we have gridlock and people will start righting op-eds and editorials about how we need to be a parliamentary system, look at how smoothly things go in britain, they used to say, right? so you could chart a course. but this entire episode of

brexit has exposed a weakness in that system as well. where what happened in great britt 'will never happen here. we have soak so many checks and balances be the regulators would get it, the we just don't -- our country does not turn on a dime like that based on how people vote on one day. are there any second thoughts about how to chuck that moving forward? >> i think this has been a unique so i'm not sure really offers this deep-seeded constitutional lessons. there is chaos because this is a massively complicated decision of enormous importance. and in a strange way, you've needed the chaos to come out with the opportunity to put things on a proper path. but in the end for all political parties, the challenge today is

can you reach out to the other side's voters and persuade them. and the choice all the time are you a party of protest or a party of government? and there are different -- it's a different psychology. i always used to say to people when i was prime minister leading my party, the politics of protest, you're the person standing with the banner, right? the politics of government, your face is on the banner. >> it's all yours. if you're not prepared for that, stick with the politics of protest. but always remember you're protesting against someone else in government. >> all right. former british prime minister tony blair, thank you very much. >> thank you so much. >> do you remember when he brought the birthday cake to you on your 50th birthday? >> i do. it was 18 years ago on my 50th birthday. >> it's great to have you here. i will be cheering for new

castle this weekend. >> thank you and i'll be cheering for liverpool. >> thanks very much for being on. coming up, congressman hakeem jeffries. as the presidential candidates stake out their ground on health care and taxes. and speaking of that, with monday's tax deadline fast approaching, know your value contributor is laying out the key ways women can make the most on their refund. after all, she wrote the book on "women with money." it about taking time to invest you in in the long term. to sign up for the know your value newsletter text value to 86666. we have much more on "morning joe" in a few minutes. g joe" in a few minutes. staying at hampton for a work trip.

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something that the administration is trying to take away.ta that will be the defining issue, we believe of the 116th congress and democrats are united in that fight on behalf of the american people. >> jeff goldberg from the atlantic. prime minister tony blare who was just here, he said that left wing populism will always be defeated by right wing populism. i've been talking to a few members of the democratic house freshman class, not the three we all know about but among the 50 or more we don't know much about and there is this anxiety about too much of a move to the left. do you credit tony blare's analysis ofre that trend with possibly causing youre problems down theng road? >> i don't. in part because i think the fundamental goodness of the american people will always

triumph over efforts to try to divide us. and right wing populism essentially is anchored in the principle of trying to blame others for the ills that we face in our society. and as long as we can authentically communicate to the earn many people that we have their bestle interest at heart, that we understand is real kaeperni economic anxiety, because of the globalization of the economy, trade deals, the outsourcing of good jobs and threats posed by the rise of automation and have real proposals to solve those problems, i think that will ultimately triumph. >> all right. thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thanks so much. >> we've got two polls to show you. take a look in terms of how the democratic contenders are doing. joe biden at the top.

look at third. anything else stand out to you? >> you know, i think we're seeing the biden sanders thing has been persistent. we're still waiting for joe biden but the real movement has been mayor pete and he has that really strong run. he says he's got his ofesficial announcement this weekend. >> he's the fresh face and the guy who's on the make right now. the question is if there were going to be other people who have moments in the sun and how do you sustain it if you're the mayor? interesting yesterday. let's put the new hampshire pole up again. weup asked this question yesterday. claire mccaskill very concerned with elizabeth warren only at being 9%.

obviously saying she should be doing better. what's going on with the campaign? >>ng i'm looking at these chart and what strikes me is that there's 10 or 12 people who don't even make this. major figures. that's cory booker is barely creeping up into the top tier or the top seven or whatever it is. i hate to be that guy -- >> be that guy. >> but these polls don't really mean that much because we're not having an election for a while. i know, it's more exciting to -- i'm sorry. >> geez. happy friday. >> it is a true thing. thatin jeff greenfield award fo therd morning goes to -- >> jeffrey. >> i accept. >> that's good company. >> i wear your scorn like a badge of w honor. >> you sound like my mother who alwayshe said judge yourself by your enemies. so tell me, when do these polls

start to matter? >> certainly they'll start to matter when we know what the entire field is. we still don't know. four people who are not yet in the race who are all big figures -- >> and by the way, all in biden's land. >> and we haven't had a debate yet so certainly not until we forget to see all these guys and galsys up on stage for us. >> jeffreys. goldberg, thank yo for beingg, with us. william barr says he thinks trump's 2016 campaign was spied on. as wed go to break we want to send our congratulations to one of our producers, mike delimar got engaged to his boyfriend aleck during his trip to japan. he proposed in the middle of a bamboo forest in the city of

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people because i know nothing about these people. >> i know nothing about kwix kwi -- wikileaks, it's not my thing. >> he knows nothing about david duke, he knows nothing about right extremists and he knows nothing about wikileaks which he called a treasure trove in 2016. >> it is friday, april 12th. ef mike barnicle, national affairs analyst for nbc news, john heilemann, the cohost -- >> wikileaks. >> i love wikileaks. >> white house correspondent is with us and columnist and associate editor for the "washington post," david ignatius is here. >> do we have the other part of those clips? >> we do. >> are we going to play those

clips? >> do you want to play them now because i was thinking we could save them for later because we've got a lot of really big news to talk about. >> all the time he talked about wikileaks you mean? >> it really was a lot like david duke too, where you know. >> this called a deep tease? >> the sunday before supertuesday he claimed to know nothing about david duke, claimed to know nothing about the klan and in 2000 he said he wasn't going to run under a forum ticket because he wouldn't run on any ticket with somebody like david duke. >> in the case of the wikileaks situation again and again in the campaign and mika, we'll get to that later in the show. >> thank you, willie. when the president throws around terms like spying much of the country simply tunes out.

when the attorney general does it it's whole different story and now the justice department is reportedly concerned about partisan allies of the president using william barr's phrasing to suggest that something illegal occurred. a person familiar with the attorney general's thinking said to the "washington post" that barr was not trying to provide conservatives with rhetorical -- >> first of all, that's -- we just have to stop there. >> this guy. >> it's such a total lie. everybody on the planet knew the second he said that that it was being thrown out as red meat. even though he backed off. >> given that he didn't back off that much. we read like a hannity script and if he wasn't doing that, what was he doing given there's no evidence for it whatsoever. if there's no evidence for it and you're at a congressional testimony and you're saying something like this, what other purpose are you serving? >> not only was there not any evidence whatsoever of that,

improper spying or surveillance or whatever they want to call it, there's actually a lot of counter veiling evidence that everything that was done was proper because again, four, five federal judges approved the warrant. they were all republicans. you have republicans all around this process that we're saying yeah, this is something we need to look into. everything was done by the book and there were procedural safeguards, something that donald trump hates, something that he considers to be a nuisance, but there were procedural safeguards all along the way. >> the surveillance of carter page who was no longer on the trump campaign when he under-wentz surveillanunderwent surveillance. the way that the fisa surveillance was approved. they don't like the information provided to the court. they decided whether or not to

surveil carter page. >> but also rod rosenstein who signed off, people who worked for bill barr right now in the justice department who approved the extension of the pfizer warrants. it's like people or republicans working in the republican -- >> the other aspect is if you watch the clip of bill barr using the word spying, he's a smart guy. he clearly knew exactly what he was saying. >> but remember his claim through associates into the press anonymously was that he doesn't make a distinction between spying and surveillance and that he did not mean to suggest anything improper was done. >> except for the fact he thought that was wrong to do that in political campaigns. is he that stupid? i don't think hi's that stupid. i know there's a lot of lawyers in washington, d.c. that are shocked about what he's doing right now.

>> well, the person familiar -- >> that have known him for years. for years, democrats and republicans alike are shocked how reckless and irresponsible and roy cone like he's being. he's -- he's destroying his legacy here and what happens, mike, to those people who destroy their legacy? does trump say thank you for destroying your legacy for me by making a fool in front of the american people who shows you have no respect to the rule of law? what happens? they get thrown out. >> i spoke to a person who has known bill barr for 30 years two days ago after the spying incident testimony and this person said, first of all, he was stunned at the difference between the bill barr he heard in testimony and the bill barr he knew as a practicing lawyer and as a republican attorney general and the second question he raised i think is epidemic now in washington and maybe in certain circles of the media and it is this.

what scares these people so much about donald trump that they -- that they just give him incredibly stupid loyalty? what is it about donald trump that so scares these people? >> it's something that mika and i have not understood from the very beginning. you can go back and look at the tape. from the moment paul ryan endorsed donald trump a couple of days after calling him a racist we said on this show, if you stand up to donald trump, he respects you. if you speak, you know, tough when you're talking back to him, you know, then he will actually negotiate back and forth. >> he has no choice. >> nobody in washington, d.c. since he has become president has stood up to this guy, maybe kelly once in a while and yeah, mattis and guess what, mattis

left with his reputation intact. anybody in the next administration would love to have mattis there. but i don't understand that question why they all fold to him. >> well, he's a bully and i think that he's -- >> bullies are actually the easiest people to handle actually. >> so the person familiar with attorney general's thinking, spying in the technical sense of intelligence. >> and i say people on twitter by the way that know better. people that have been in news for a very long that i've respected just making fools of themselves here. it's embarrassing and i respect them, so i don't respond, but they make such fools of themselves and it makes me really sad. >> so the president and his allies -- take a look. >> i think what he said was

absolutely true. there was absolutely spying into my campaign. when the democrats go behind the scenes and they go into a room backstage and they sit and they talk, they laugh because they know it's all a big scam, a big hoax and it's politics but this is dirty politics and this is actually treason. >> now thank god we have an attorney general who calls spying for what it is. in late 2015, early 2016, spying began on the trump campaign. that information leaked that led to what they considered to be legal spying. then you have the culmination of the ultimate spying where you have the fbi director spying on the president, taking notices illegally leaking those notes of classified information, why? so they could appoint a special counsel to spy on an acting president again.

>> again, i don't know about david nunez, all right. >> skip him. >> but everybody else knows better. >> anybody that has ever met people, judges who are on the fisa court know, these are the best and the brightest. they're also pretty tough men and women. they take their jobs extraordinarily seriously and dumbas dumbasses leek that that are accusing judges of being part of a conspiracy, a political conspiracy should be ashamed of themselves. they're a disgrace to this country and this is once again and donald trump's done it all alone. this is once again an attack on the federal judiciary. >> we'll pick it up right there. three key excerpts this morning highlight the undermining points. barr's official memo on mueller that helped him get the job and

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my name is tanya, i work in the network operations center for comcast. we are working to make things simple, easy and awesome. a new piece entitled bill barr's low moments and he writes in part this, the use of terminology like spying and spying on a political campaign is bound to play into ongoing conspiracy theories, promoted by the president himself about the origins of the russia investigation. when the attorney general has questions about the conduct of his department, the proper thing to do is not to dangle those questions in a congressional hearing in a fashion bound to stir up conspiracy theories. in the daily beast, rick wilson calls bill barr the most

dangerous man in america and he writes in part, barr won the job by writing a memo before he knew a single fact contained in the mueller report. its promises were irresistible to trump. as attorney barr would protect this president from the charges of obstruction. he is an audience of one, donald trump. like barr's application memo, every word of his testimony this week screamed out obedience to the president. and former senior advisor for the oversight committee writes in a new piece for nbc news, it is painfully clear that the attorney general cannot and should not be the arbitor of what congress and ultimately the american people can see when it comes to the mueller report. there is no reason why democrats or the american people should have to settle for anything less than the full and complete report, not some sanitized version manufactured by a

presidential public defender. >> david ignatius, we've talked to people in washington who are depressed by the decline of attorney general barr, the way he's performed publicly for donald trump's benefit, what insights can you give us on barr as well as the washington legal community's reaction to this performance this week? >> joe, barr was supposed to be the professional, the person that had justice department experience who could be counted on for at least professional judgment measured judgment, and i think the reason that people have been so shocked is that in his comments especially about spying on the trump campaign, he is feeding a narrative on the right that essentially there was an effort against president

trump that was run by officials of the fbi, officials of the intelligence community and it's the most poisonous narrative that you could have and the idea that the chief law enforcement officer of the united states with all these crazy rumors swirling would feed them with these loose comments, it shock people and it's a sign in part as you said earlier of how frightened barr must be. he's clearly not a disciplined speaker, but i note the reaction overseas. i've been traveling a little bit abroad recently and people watch what's happening. one person said to me a prominent asian, your country is lost and that's increasingly the perception. another said to me we're concerned about our ability to continue cooperating with a country that's in this much chaos. the stakes are high. i hope barr understands it.

i hope it's getting through to him that he made a big mistake. >> the attorney general, willie, took a bad situation, made it much worse, not only with domestic implications and he's going to be proven to be a liar and he knows that. you know, he already -- >> that must have been worth it to him. >> he's already going to be outed as sanitizing the mueller report, and so now that that's getting -- he's close to getting exposed there, he now launches a new lie, a new conspiracy theory, throws bait out to the most radical anti law & order people in america and sends a message across the globe that this is -- this is a country that is -- is spiraling out of control because of its president. >> barr's claim that they were spying is rightly getting the headline but the followup questions that took place in that hearing when someone asked him, what evidence do you have of spying?

he said i have no specific evidence and went on to say i have questions and concerns, which makes it more reckless to make the claim of spying without any evidence and the president as we just played and as you would expect seized on this and took barr's claim even further. i'll say it was unprecedented spying and that it was in fact treason. so the president has his headline now from the attorney general without evidence and he's going to ride that as long as he can. >> i think the key is the followup questions. i also want to point out the nunez comments, the idea that he's saying that james comey because he was writing notes on a meeting the president asked him to attend was somehow spying on the president. that's not spying. that's what everybody, all those i've talked to in the fbi they're taught to document the things that happen. and then you have this idea that

now -- you have a sitting member of congress saying that robert mueller was spying on the president when in fact he was carrying on an investigation that the american people were paying for but i think it goes back to this idea that president trump as a core of who he is is in some ways who likes to traffic in conspiracy theories. he started his political life by saying president obama may not have been born in this country and he was talking about ted cruz father possibly being involved in the murder of president kennedy. you're going to see not only the president but the people that want to stay in his orbit are going to echo his own behavior. >> coming up on "morning joe," michael avenatti loves being involved in high profile legal cases. there's a slew of new criminal charges levelled against the lawyer and they could carry serious prison time. we'll run through that and some

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a federal grand jury in california has indicted michael avenatti on 30 new charges including alleged fraud, tax and embezzling millions of dollars from clients. the severity of charges come with a possible max sentence of 335 years in prison. avenatti also faces separate charges in new york for allegedly attempting to extort $20 million from nike. he tweeted yesterday quote, i'm entitled to a full presumption of innocence and i'm confidence that justice will be done once all the facts are known. the city of chicago has filed a lawsuit against jussie smollett. smollett refused to pay $130,000 for the money it spent on over

1,800 hours of police overtime investigating the actor's claim that he was the victim of an alleged hate crime. the lawsuit comes after cook county prosecutors dropped all charges against smollett last month. >> so do you have any reporting on who exactly got the state attorney to drop those charges? because the entire city of chicago -- >> is unhappy. >> is angry. the police chief, the police officers, the mayor, everybody is angry. so who -- who pressured this state attorney to drop those charges? >> i have no idea and i think it continues. i really have no idea but i think it raises some questions about -- i mean, one of the things that people suspect is there's potential of some defect in the way -- there was some even though he -- there was a case and that somewhere along the line there was something that in the process of putting the case together there was something done wrong. >> that's not right. >> somebody came to his --

>> you could have recused yourself, you know, the state attorney. >> something happened from higher up. >> but i don't know what happened. >> that doesn't make any sense. >> what's your gut? >> somebody with power stepped in. >> i think the incoming mayor, i don't think she has commented on this yet. >> somebody in a powerful position got them to drop those charges. >> all right. moving on. >> i don't know who it was. >> no, i'm saying there's somebody obviously didn't mind offending the entire chicago police force. >> the country. >> the mayor and the entire country. >> is son of a louisiana sheriff's deputy is facing charges for allegedly setting fire to three historically black churches. the deputy's son a 21-year-old is facing three counts of simple arson on religious buildings. if convicted he could be sentenced to up to 15 years in prison per charge. the churches were empty at the

time but the fires, each of the churches suffered considerable damage. and if you have an amazon echo product, alexa may not be the only one listening. we knew this. >> jack knows this. >> listening to your conversations. >> kate told jack who at the time was 8 years old. she pointed at the alexa and said the chinese and the russians are listening. since then jack would go into every room and we do not plug it back in. i think that -- i think he's right. >> jeff bezos is listening for sure. >> i talk to him and he talks to me. thousands of employees around the world listen to voice recordings captured by that echo speaker in homes and offices every day. >> it seemed like such a good idea at the time. >> it takes customer privacy seriously and reviews only a small number of selected

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russians and the chinese are listening. these are microphones. >> everybody is on a hot mic all the time. you might believe president trump knows nothing about wikileaks if you didn't pay attention to the news between say, i don't know, 2015 and 2017. we'll talk about that when "morning joe" comes right back. "morning joe" comes right back >> all you have to do is take a look at wikileaks. >> wikileaks some brutal stuff. >> this just came out. wikileaks, i love wikileaks. wikileaks, i love wikileaks. ♪ goin' down the only road i've ever known ♪ ♪ like a drifter i was-- ♪ born to walk alone! keep goin' man! you got it! if you ride, you get it. ♪ here i go again geico motorcycle. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more. so let's promote our spring ftravel deals,

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well, i think it is clear from the indictment that came out, it's not about punishing journalism. it's about assisting the hacking of the military computer to steal information from the united states government and look, i -- i'll wait and see

what happens with the charges, and how it proceeds, but you know, he -- he skipped bail in the uk, you know, sweden had those charges which have been dropped in the last several years, but the bottom line is, he has to answer for what he is -- has done at least as it's been charge. i think it's a ilittle ironic that this may be the only foreigner that this administration would welcome to the united states. >> hillary clinton last night reacting to the arrest of julian assan assange. joining us now, editorial director for the washington examiner and political journalist jessica yellin, she's the founder of the digital platform news not noise. and jessica is out this week with a new novel that highlights the realities of tv journalism.

it's entitled and i love this "savage news." great to have you with us. >> we were hoping fur our next book, our joint venture of course on smoking carts and cigars we were hoping to be called the voice of our generation. >> oh, my god. it's so good. >> "savage news." >> amy schumer say's you're the clean honest voice. >> we're very inadequate. >> we're the voice of the generation. >> we're done. >> it's a shock, people going it really took joe to feel that long to feel inadequate? >> this is the moment. >> tell us about savage news. >> it's the story of a young woman who always wanted to cover the white house and she gets the opportunity just as the first lady disappears. she has to deal with reality star, sex, work place drama, palace intrigue and it's not a

trump administration tell all. 's about reporting while female. >> and talk about that. shall we? get into some of the things you touch on in the book are any of those attached to your real life as a white house reporter for cnn an all the work that you've done? >> what i say is it's a come z composite. there's a story about how she breaks, gets a little scoop and you have to take it to your assignment desk to get it on air and nobody else is reporting this and she's like great, i have it first. and she's like i'm the first one. and it happens all the time. it's an exclusive, that's why we want it first. there's a lot of talk about appearance and some of the challenges women come up against at work. >> there is a lot of challenge with appearance. i tack an hour to get ready. how long do you guys take to get

ready? >> three minutes. >> that's amazing, joe beats you. he actually didn't take any time. >> i slept in this last night. >> so but it's challenging and unfair. >> it's good to have the conversation and id's a fun book but lit's have the conversation. >> we came in with a clip of hillary clinton talking about julian assange. it's very interesting the loyalties around assange, the short of shape sifted and it's so interesting he used to -- he was loathed by those of us on the right for what he did. then he was loathed by people on the left for maybe helping donald trump in 2016. >> right. >> and then last night i saw sort of the shifting going back and some people left of center suddenly were saying he's a journalist, you shouldn't throw him in jail. so i'm so confused. what are we supposed to think of

julian assange? >> he is a sort of case study about the way people will shift their principles according to where somebody is. i think the whole thing hinges on conspiracy, doesn't it? some people claim he's a journalist and clearly publishing information is not the issue. he's not going to -- it's going to be did i feel to prove a crime based on just publishing information which happened to have been taken i improperly. but he's accused of conspiracy. helping to break the code, to hack into -- to helping chelsea manning to taking this information illegally and that's not what journalists do. >> that's the difference between the rand corporation turning over the pentagon papers to a reporter versus a reporter hl ping break into the pentagon to get the pentagon papers which is what in effect assange did. >> one is a crime and one is

journalism potentially. assange wants to be a rebel so he doesn't want to comply with the rules. i think the most interesting reality of this story is that as much as we're concerned that the systems might not work anymore, the fact that assange is being charged by the u.s. despite what happened during the 2016 campaign suggests that our justice department is still working. it's still functioning no matter what the white house may want them to be doing at this time. >> there was an extraordinary thing i thought yesterday when the russian foreign ministry came up with one of these laughably pompous statement about the hands of freedom kweezing the throat of democracy. >> that's rich. even for them. >> it was amazing, but it was like the stupid thief returning to the scene of the crime. what are the russians doing commenting on an australia been extradited to the united states. it's like saying we're

associated with this too. >> this is one thing i don't understand about all this is donald trump is -- the great thing about donald trump is he's such a day trader. you can see every move that he's making and this is like one of the first things i don't understand. why would he want to bring back a guy to the united states who he's lying about already. wikileaks, i don't know who -- >> i can't personally imagine that he does. i think there is an element of the justice department that is doing what it's meant to do. independent and as far as the president's remarks yesterday, we think we see what you're doing. like it's just par for the course. >> yeah, and willie, it is interesting. again, the long sort of history that -- the tangled web, you can find a lot of journalists attacking assange and wikileaks as a, you know, basically the biggest low lives, the biggest traitors suddenly becoming friends. >> you can see it play out on

real time and social media, people going do i like this guy? i can't remember how i'm supposed to feel about it. no it's extraordinary and of course the president came out yesterday and said i don't know anything about wikileaks, speaking of day trading. surviving that moment to get through that press gaggle when we have the tape of him talking about wikileaks. hue go, i want to ask you about a piece wrote for you in the examiner. a guy we respect as a writer and a thinker. spying on trump campaign did occur. what's the case for that? >> the case for that is the publish facts we already know. it's surveillance both electronically and in person. you know, when the intelligence agencies surveil russia, either electronically or in person we call it spying. the intelligence agencies believed or purported to belief or spekted that the trump

administration was in collusion with russia. they used electronic purvey lance and on carter pages e-mails and they didn't look forwards from them on. they looked back at the e-mails that were -- that we wrote -- >> you agree that the request went through and was approved by the fisa court. >>y there's been a lot of fuss made over the use of the word spying. the attorney general went on to say he's not saying that this was improperly predicated and i think that that's reasonable. also there was a fellow called steven hallper as associated with british secret service mi 6, mi 5. he was tasked by the fbi to get in touch with carter page, and he also set up a meeting with

trump campaign manager. >> the implication of the word spying is untoward of something going on. do you think that was irresponsible to float that? >> no, i don't think so. the reason why there's such a fuss is that the left sees the collusion narrative backfiring on them and you know, they -- the one thing that we know is a bogus conspiracy theory is the idea of the collusion narrative. now we have to look at who invepted it. >> we haven't seen the report yet. >> no, i don't know what the report says. none of us know what the report says and i'd like to see the report before all of this comes out and i would like the attorney general to -- you know, hold his water until we actually -- if he has concerns about it which he should, investigate those and don't throw around reckless charges in an opening hearing that he admits he has no evidence for. >> i think we have to acknowledge it's highly unusual for a campaign to have this many contacts with russia in the middle of a presidential

campaign. so there was surveillance perhaps but was it justified is the real question and was it collusion traditionally defined or is there something going on that needs to be explored? >> and we have a report from a really fiercely independent ig and let's hear what that report says. >> hugo gordon, and jessica yellin, i'm looking at your instagram and this is where you do your own version of the news every day. i love it. >> keep it calm. >> i'm keeping it -- so follow jessica yellin on instagram. her book "savage news" is out now. >> voice for our generation. maybe every generation. >> it's never getting better than this. >> time now for business before the bell. sara eisen, a lot of speculation. uber has released the paperwork for its long awaited ipo. >> we can expect a big one. one of the biggest ipos ever as much as potentially

$100 billion. just to put that in perspective it's double the market value of fed ex. two fed exs there. could be the biggest since 2014. this is what we know about uber based on the document that they put out. they're still growing fast when it comes to revenues, not the hyper growth days of its early period, remember, this is a decade old company but it is losing a lot of money. this is a company that lost almost $2 billion last year. it is an investment mode. it's investing to grow businesses like uber eats which is growing very, very fast. investing in scooters and all types of things. so the question is do they want to get in on what has been a transformational product and service in our lives, 91 people use uber on a monthly basis. so it just shows you how big and transformational it really is, but really it's still losing a ton of money with no real sight of when it's going to become profitab profitable.

>> all right. thank you. >> it's baseball season. >> only 306 days until pitchers and catchers -- >> coming up next, one of the best baseball minds in the world. a great new book about pitching. we'll talk to tyler when we come right back. o tyler when we come right back see that's funny, i thought you traded options. i'm not really a wall street guy. what's the hesitation? eh, it just feels too complicated, you know? well sure, at first, but jj can help you with that. jj, will you break it down for this gentleman? hey, ian. you know, at td ameritrade, we can walk you through your options trades step by step until you're comfortable. i could be up for that. that's taking options trading from wall st. to main st. hey guys, wanna play some pool? eh, i'm not really a pool guy. what's the hesitation? it's just complicated. step-by-step options trading support from td ameritrade and i don't add trup the years.s. but what i do count on... is boost® delicious boost® high protein nutritional drink

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top of the 6th and rookie sensation on the pitch now. he pulls the book on keller. thank god. only four runs down. we're still in this game. . vaughn into the windup in his first offering. just a bit outside. he tried the corner and missed. ball four. ball eight. low and vaughn has walked the bases on 12 straight pitch. >> how can these guys [ bleep ] that close? >> how good is he he in that movie? joining us now, the great tyler kepner. in his book tyler writes pitches are the dna of every baseball game and every delivery in a

pitcher's arsenal has his own unique history. tyler, good morning. good to see you. >> great to see you. this is crazy. we arrived on vanderbilt university about 25 years ago and worked in a small room on the vanderbilt hustler, the school newspaper. you were distracted by the title. good to see you. congrats on the book. >> thanks a lot. >> we have so many questions for you. we love this book and it's perfect. the roy haliday and mariano rivera connection, roy approaches him at an all-star game and says what? >> i think something's wrong with my cutter. rivera had that famous pitch, in on the left and just sheer their bats. haliday said what am i doing wrong? he moved his thumb. he took off. he was already an all star.

the last three years of his dominant really took him to the hall of fame. what he would do is if rivera is telling me what to do, this is god on high. he took a baseball and traced his fingers around the instructions and he would keep that ball in his locker, in his travel bag the rest of his career. whenever he got off kilter and his muscle memory went to the wrong place, he would lock it in. >> the famous rivera cutter was traced on to a baseball. that's amazing. how did you approach this book? what's the idea behind it? it's a great way into baseball. how did you pick the pitches and the pitchers who threw them? >> i had three years to do it. traveling around for "the new york times" i had a chance to run into guys. my antenna was always up. i joked that the whole thing was an excuse to talk to my all time favorite player steve carlton, but he threw a killer slider. i got him on the phone. got a lot of people on the phone

and in person and if you can trace the origins, baseball is just short enough, 150 years of history to where you can kind of trace the whole origins without getting too far flung and go all the way back from the beginning until now. it was a lot of fun. >> was there any consensus, tyler, about the toughest pitch to hit? i know it's different for every generation, but maybe it was rivera's cutter, maybe it was carlton's slider. what's the greatest single pitch that's ever been thrown? >> from a pitcher? >> anything. what is the toughest to hit? >> a lot don't want to hit the knuckleball. we don't see it very much anymore, but sometimes when a knuckleball on the mound they say forget it. lefties from his time when they faced randy johnson would say that randy johnson collideslide forget it. he's going to throw it 98. it was comical in all star games. they would put the helmet on backwards and say i don't want any part of this guy. randy johnson was going to talk to him about his slider and how

he took that 6'10" form and finally channelled it in the right direction. that was fun. >> i never understood how anyone ever touched his slider at that height coming from his position. >> joe's got a question for you. >> i was curious, tyler, digging a little deeper into the title of the book, how baseball can be explained by ten pitch. >> really the pitches are what make up the game. that's what's so fascinating to me is the fitcher decides what he wants to do. nothing happens until the pitcher decides what am i going to throw and where am i going to throw it. if you really dive into the history of each one of those, you can find all the different ways pitchers try to attack hitters. at the very beginning of baseball the pitcher could say high you or low. once pitchers figured out how to make the ball spin and go this way or that way, it became a test of pitching more than anything else. you see it now with all the strikeouts.

there were more strikeouts than hits in baseball last year. >> have you gotten the answer to the question that so many people are asking these days? how could it be somebody like bob gibson can pitch ten innings in a playoff game and these guys, you know, even in 1967 with the red sox, jim longborg was pitching on one day's rest. he ended game seven. but these pitchers would always pitch on three days rest. gibson would pitch sometimes on two days rest in the playoff. now the red sox have to, you know, basically give, you know, chris sale a couple of months off so he can pitch five innings in october. i'm not being nasty about it. it's just the truth. why is it that pitchers don't have the endurance they used to? >> it's funny, they all talk about how they want to go nine innings and that's their mentality, but i think there's a couple of reasons. one is there's so many kids

coming up through the minors throwing hard with good off-speed pitches. they've got a lot of nasty guys behind you so rather than have a pitcher go through the order a third or fourth time, bring in a new look from the bullpen because there's so many good ones out there. it doesn't explain why the aces don't go 250, 300 innings. that hasn't happened since 1980. i don't think we'll get to 250 anymore. 220 now is a lot. so a lot of it is just babying the pitchers on their way up. a lot is velocity. a lot of them throw harder than the guys in the past. people will tell you orthopedists and people in the know will say that velocity is probably the leading predictor of injuries. they're trying to protect these guys and the investments they have. we don't see those dominant outings, those gibson kind of games much anymore. >> gibson, a guy who threw pretty hard himself and the insanity of having somebody pitch a no hitter through six

innings or a one-hitter through seven and yanking him only to have the next guy come up and walk the bases full. it's already happened this year because of the idiocy of the pitch count. >> there's a lot of varying opinions about it, but you go back to the old days and not even that old, i remember in high school seeing curt schilling pit a shut out with 147 pitches. he had some injuries along the way. roy haliday, he pitched a shut out. one of the guys of the a's ended up getting hurt and people just don't -- when there's one example, one bad example, everybody wants to overreact and not be that by. yohan santana, first mets no hitter ever. later in his career terry collins really wants him to get it. santana wants to continue to pitch. 134 pitches he gets his no hitter, but it's basically the last good game of his career.

he's kind of shot after that. nobody wants to have that happen on their watch anymore. >> so many good anecdotes in the book. i love the one about gaylord perry and president nixon. famous for his pitch the spitball. >> and meets president nixon who was a big baseball fan. he loved baseball. he said tell me, where do you get? the elbows and the ribs? guylo gaylord, mr. president, there's some things i can't tell you for your own good. he was the ultimate trickster. he could do all these different gyrations and a lot of them were decoys to full the batter. the spitball and the scuff balls back in the day, he wanted to get in the hitter's head that he thinks you're doing it whether you are or not. vaseline on the hat, ky jelly, all the invisible stuff. >> it wasn't noe niecro pulling

the sand paper out of his pocket. >> he's still furious. he says what does he think he's doing? pulling the nail file out on the middle of the mound in front of 60,000 people? he is still fired up. how could you suspend my brother for that. if that was me they would have had to restrain me. >> that lame attempt to disguise it when he threw his hands up in the air. before i let you go, i'll put you on the spot. one game in game seven of the world series. one pitch in baseball history, who do you run out there? >> bob gibson. >> you didn't hesitate. >> no. if we're doing history through time, gibson for eight and then rivera in the ninth. gibs g gibson wouldn't want to give up the ball. they both had game sevens where they lost. they're not infallible. but if you look at most guys given time will have pretty much the same performance in the postseason as they do in the regular season, but gibson and rivera, hall of famers in the

regular season, took it to another level in october. >> while you're speaking let me flashback to that bloop single in arizona in game seven, 2001. >> it was the throwing era. it ruined that whole thing. >> tyler kepner, vanderbilt's finest. >> we were assistant sports editors together in 1994. >> that's correct. and look at you now. the book is "a history of baseball in ten pitches". tyler, great to see you. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhl picks up the coverage. >> we have a lot to get to this morning. focus on this one starting with the shocking new report that white house officials actually considered transporting detained migrants into sanctuary cities to retaliate against president trump's political adversaries. and now polling third in iowa, mayor