the descendents of the 272 slaves sold by the university. they voted to adopt a 27.20 fee per semester that will go toward k through 12 education for the slaves. the school has not yet said whether it will implement the change. that wraps up this hour of msnbc live. andrea mitchell reports starts right now. thank you. the white house proposed to release undocumented migrants into sanctuary cities run by democrats. targeting nancy pelosi and others for a policy the president slammed for years. >> these outrageous sanctuary cities are grave threats to public safety and national security. these are really hard core criminal aliens. mayor pete takes on the beat. he attacks mike pence for his

anti-gay rights record back in indiana. game on. >> he said some things that are critical of my christian faith and about me personally. he knows better. >> i'm not critical of his faith. i'm critical of bad policies. i don't have a problem with religion. i'm religious too. touched by an angel. the right wing fire brand steve bannon gives all credit to a higher power. >> devine providence looked on us and we drew a string. >> you really believe this? >> he's a very imperfect instrument but he's an instrument. good day. i'm an drdrea mitchell in washington where the topic is immigration.

they are deemed too rads cical nielsen teams. the white house wanted to drop off migrants in largely democratic sanctuary cities where local official s have vowd not to cooperate with ice. an official denying this is about political retribution where democrats say we want them. joining me kristen welker. msnbc justice and security analyst matt miller. you and the team at the white house have been doing the reporting on this. it seems incredible. i know it was rejected because it was too extreme for the officials at homeland. this is one of the things that legitimately came out of the white house. >> reporter: it was floated twice.

it was seriously -- it was under serious considering. officials at dhs and i.c.e. determined it wouldn't be legal. dhs officials saying this was a suggestion that was floated and rejected that ended any further discussion. again, the white house is pushing back on this narrative this was political retribution. they are making the point why would we have all of these migrants over flowing these border towns. why not send them to some of these areas that are democratic strongholds. democrats are not buying that. house speaker nancy pelosi firing back in statement through her spokesperson saying this reveals the extent of this administration ease cynicism and cruelty that cannot be over stated. this is a flash point in the immigration debate that continues to loom large as we see this surge here at the border of migrants. >> nancy pelosi was just asked about this at the democratic retreat that's been going on in

virginia. let's watch. >> it's just another notion that is unworthy of the presidency of the united states and disrespectful of the challenges we face as a country, as a people to address who we are, a nation of immigrants. >> would this even be legal? >> we don't think it would be legal. it's obviously cynical. let me say a quick word about sanctuary cities because there's a lot of misunderstanding. you can turn over -- the cities and states do turn over immigrants when there's warrant. that's just compliant with the rule and law. all the federal government has to do is get a warrant. the reason those policies exist in the cities is because law enforcement in the cities say it makes the city safer. if we have policies where we turn over every one without a warrant to immigration then no one will cooperate with local

law enforcement, local police to solve serious crimes. this is part of a larger context where this administration has used immigrants as pawns. the most extreme being family separation where the children, two, three, four-year-olds got used as pawns in larger political fight. >> bob, as a former white house counsel, these are the kinds of issues that white house counsels and others supposed to be describing but it seems the president and steve miller kept pushing and pushing. the president not accepting advice even from good lawyers that things he's proposing are just not legal. >> it raises the question of the white house counsel as all. it's impossible that if it had had, it would have gone any further than that. in conversations with the president and mr. miller, if the proposal suits the president then the call goes to the agency and it's up to the agency to

resist. that's not how the institution is supposed to work. >> it's clear there is a crisis on the border and jeh johnson got a lot of political heat for having acknowledged that. >> this proposal has nothing to do with dressing the actual challenges at the boarderder. i think this is one of the worst abuses you can imagine. it's usiing government resource and law enforcement resources for political purpose with no government objective at stake. using them to retaliation against a political opponent of the president from the other party, a number of political opponents and doing it with actual human beings being pawns

in this proposal. with no understanding or care of what would happen to these people, including children, if they are picked up and moved from one part of the country. where they may have no family members or networks. you have a white house that's unconstrained that usually govern presidential behavior and where one of the chief requirements for people in the agencies that work for this white house is a willingness to violate the law which fortunately, dhs was not willing to do. >> bring us up to date with where we stand with the different cases that you have brought and your colleagues have brought and the acknowledgement that they started the separation policy as a trial months earlier and there are thousands of children who may not be reunited with their families for as long as two years. >> this is the most remarkable point in the family separation saga we have seen since last summer when the judge ruled. what we're now learning is that although the government reported

to us about 3,000 family separations, there may have been thousands more separations that the government never reported publicly, to the court, and us as the lawyers and only revealed as an internal hhs report. the government is saying it's too burdensome to try to locate the families. the judge put his foot down and said you need to locate them. submit a plan. this past friday the government said they want up to two years just to identify the families. we could get a few paralegals to do it in a few months to go through the files. we're talking about 2, 3, 4-year-olds who would have to wait another two years and already been separated eight months. it's as remarkable a point in family separation as i've seen. we're still seeing separations going forward under the pretext that the parent is danger to the child. when we learn more about it, we hear it's because the parent was driving without a license ten

years ago or there was some non-violent theft ten years ago. we're still in the thick of family separation. >> do you have enough lawyers to even handle all of this? >> we're trying our best. we've had volunteer lawyers. we're working around the clock. it's not just family separation. we have an injunction against the asylum ban. it's one case after another. we're just going have to keep fighting. >> it's really important on a friday for all of us to just think about what lee just said. a week ago they got this admission there are thousands of these kid s and it will take

years to reunit. wh -- reunite. what the president gets fired up is this was an obama policy. this was a policy where children were separated from family ifs they were violent, the kinds of parents you would normally take a child away from. not the kinds of pre-text like a driving citation from several years back. you kind of lose your sense of moral outrage if this mills one thing into the other. we talk about immigration every day. we have to keep the focus on this. >> reporter: you're right. the fact check on what president trump said in the oval office has to do with the fact his administration implemented the zero tolerance policy which effectively meant that any adult who crossed the border would have to essentially face legal action and so that meant they would be separated from their kids. that's why you saw more than

2,000 kids, that we know of, that we know of, who experienced this. there are clearly others. there are others we don't know about. it's aimed ga eed at getting to. they are looking at a revised version of that zero tolerance policy. they are looking at proposals that would make it tougher to get asylum sta tuttusstatus. it could make what we're seeing more complex. >> we're not going to let it drop.

he indicted and this afternoon appearing in court, this is quite a fall for a democrat that went to law school with bill and hillary clinton. i know he will have a lot to say in his own defense and we'll hear what that is. i always thought of him as an honorable public service and a first rate lawyer. >> he was caught up, this is the first democratic indictment to come. he was representing the same clients in ukraine as paul manafort. >> he was. it's something fishy about the way the justice department brought this case. this case was investigated by the southern district of new york.

the prosecutors declined to bring this prosecution. they thought it wasn't justified. at that point the people took the case from sdny, brought it to d.c. and asked them to investigate. they did and brought justice. the justice department owes an explanation they brought this case after one office declined to bring it. without that, it does raise questions over whether the prosecution is political or not. >> thank you so much. wikileaks founder julian assange will be back in court on may 2nd for the first of two extradition hearings after being charged by the u.s. with one count of conspiracy to commit computer intrusion. this goes back to 2010. the legal team is claiming this is a violation of the free press

claiming wikileaks was performing journalism. you are claiming press freedoms. have you spoken with assange and what is he saying about this? >> i haven't had a chance to speak with him after he was aised yesterday. >> how long do you think this process will take? the extradition process. >> if you look at other case, it can drag out for two to three years. it's impossible to say. we are looking forward with all legal means possible. it cannot go forward.

it would set a precedent of great concern. >> there's an editorial today, i'm sure you have seen, challenging that premise saying mr. aassange is not a free-pres here row. unlike real journalistsic leeks dumped material into the public. goes on the raise the case of the allegations from 2016 which he's not charged. nor needless to say would a real journalist have cooperated with a plot by an authoritarian regime's intelligence service to harm one u.s. presidential candidate and benefit another. could you respond to that? >> let's start with this

material from 2010. it was material that was exposing war crimes, horrendous killing of innocent civilians. this was material handled and published in coordination with media around the world including the new york times and the state. if you look at the track record of wikileaks throughout the years, it's not been a single incident where wikileaks has information that's been called out as fabrication or false. it's in the public interest to be available to everybody. we have worked with mainstream media on several occasions and especially when we are dealing with such large and important data in the case in 2010 which

all this pertained to. this indictment that we're now seeing. in my opinion and i'm certain is only the tip of the iceberg and more charges will be added on later while and if he is thrown aboard a prison plane to the united states. >> the issue is not the accuracy of the information obtain. it's the method by which it's obtained to hack into government computers. i wanted to ask you about the intel jenligence assessment. the intelligence community assesses with high confidence that the gru relayed material. moscow chose wikileaks because of it self-proclaimed

authenticity. we're talking about that indictment. you're talking about its reputation which you represent. how do you respond to the charges of collusion with russia? >> it's absolutely amazing that the word collusion is still being thrown around after we saw was in the mueller report according to the report by attorney general barr. >> that doesn't involve wikileaks. that involves whether or not the trump team was involved with the wikileaks. not whether wikileaks was involved with the gru. >> i know what that involves. in that collusion theory on a political level between allegedly between moscow and the trump team. wikileaks was placed right in the center. if you look at the core of what happened in 2016, the

extradition request relates to war crimes in 2010. wikileaks received information and it was not from a state doctrine and not russia. unknown source. the people have in a secure been able to submit information to wikileaks. it's an organization, assess whether it's newsworthy, whether it's accurate and whether it should be out in the public domain. let me remind you that dozens of news organizations in the united states with stories based on that material. therefore, supported our assessment this was newsworthy. let me finish. it's a core aspect of journalism. journalism is about candidates prior to election especially.

that's news sort of people and journalists are supposed to do. that's why i drafted it in our western society. what about the timing and the way the information was targeted and cherry picked. >> it's interesting to take up the access hollywood tape. it so happens our publication was planned days ahead. you can have journalists attest to that that the timing was prepared well before hand and the exact timing the day and exact hour. we had no information on when this atape would be published.

the interesting thing would be to turn around the question. did those who published the access hollywood tape know we were about to publish the documents at that specific time. >> you feel you've been exonerated on all the 2016 questions by the mueller report? we still have not seen the mueller report but the attorney general has characterized it. >> i don't like the word exoneration because we have been doing journalism throughout the years. i've been with the organization for ten years. i've been doing journalism for 30 years. i don't see any difference of what i did. >> a conversation to be continued. thank you very much. i really appreciate you being on with us today. >> thank you. >> the editor and chief of wikileaks. coming up, hometown showdown. 2020 contender taking on vice president pence. the former governor of his state over gay rights. you're watching andrea mitchell reports. ching andrea mitchell reports.

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nc you could call it a hoosier shoot out. vice president firing back at the rising democratic star for slamming pence's past anti-gay policies. >> i worked very closely with mayor pete when i was governor of the state of indiana. we had a great working relationship. he said some things that are critical of my christian faith and about me personally. he knows better. >> i'm not critical of his faith. i'm critical of bad policies. >> this comes as buttigieg surges in polls. joining me now is jonathan capehart, opinion writer for the

washington post. jonathan, first to you. this is such an interesting home state match up. i know from some of the pence people, they feel legitimately ticked off because they think they reached out to pete when he was in afghanistan and when he came out and got married. now they see this as political opportunism. >> sure they look at it as political opportunism. the problem is everything the mayor is saying is correct. in the clip you smhowed from th vice president saying he knows better, talking about mayor pete. the mayor's retort is he should go better. he isn't going after him because of his christian beliefs or he believes in god. mayor pete is criticizing the vice president for policies that have been detrimental to the

lgbtq community. reminding every one just because he is gay doesn't mean he isn't created in timage of god. that's why he's formidable in matchup with vice president. he will not shrink from his own beliefs. >> it's why he's formidable add a democratic contender in the primaries as well. he has this very different way of framing his identity and framing it as a christian man. >> yes. to a degree he exhibits a level of comfort talking about religion that a lot of democrats don't exhibit. obviously there's the issue of race, gender. there's the issue of age he has to confront. i have to say talking to democratic big wigs and democratic funders, including people who supported barack obama during his run in 2008, there's a palpable buzz and

excitement about mayor pete that wasn't there maybe a month ago. to a degree that's owed to the fact he's doing this opinion polls and his fund raising numbers are great. they look at someone that can create the contrast and doesn't bring the vulnerabilities to the ticket that the older nominees could. >> with be meet the press conversation with chuck todd last week, with his conversation to the human rights campaign last sunday, he's getting more buzz right now than beto. >> right. >> in term of generation. >> and justifiably so. anyone who has been paying attention to mayor pete since his run for dnc chair is not surprised by the mayor pete they are seeing today. i interviewed him back in december for my podcast. listening to him talk about his view s as a progressive democratic in the middle of red indiana and not being afraid of saying, i'm a progressive democrat. here is what i believe and saying proactively he wants to

take back the language from the republican party. freedom and security and justice back for the democrats. people are finally hearing him because of "meet the press." the hrc speech and the cnn town hall. >> the only question i have that i haven't gotten a good answer to is why he's focusing so much of his attention on the vice president. it first plush it makes it seem like he wants to run for a vp nomination. >> or it's a convenient target. >> or it's a convenient target because pence was the governor of the state he lied in. he has handled himself well. he had a really interesting trial run as dnc chair. i think he has done it well. >> here we go. to be continued.

how many weeks to go. >> we have months. >> have great weekend. coming up, forced from the ranks. president trumped transgender ban taking effect today. we'll talk to a transgender member of the navy about the impact on his life. stay with us right here on msnbc. life stay with us right here on msnbc. when you're confident in your gut, you feel confident to take on anything. with benefiber, you'll feel the power of gut health confidence every day. benefiber is a 100% natural prebiotic fiber.

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when defense secretary ash carter first announced in 2016 that the pentagon would allow transgender to serve in the milita military. a year later a stunning reversal that came with a series of tweets announcing he was banning transgender people from the military citing advice from generals and military experts. the move blind sided his own defense secretary, james mattis who scrambled to detain the fall out. a legal battle ensued which in january ruled in favor of president trump. the transgender military ban goes into effect. the fate of transgender soldiers all of whom lay their lives on the line hangs in the balance. the virginia pilot spent more than 16 months to serve in the military. we thank you for your service. thank you for being with us today. tell us what the impact of this

ban is as you continue to serve because you are already in. how does it affect you and others and others who want to serve? >> for me, personally, it affects where i'm going to be going in my career. i no longer have the option to become an officer if i want to because of the sessions policy. so many others that do get to stay in are facing kind of the same issue. others that cannot join are struggling. this is pretty much what they want to do with their lives and being told they can't. it's very, very disheartening for them and for the people that have to leave for their families to figure out now what are we going to do. >> so you mean this ban, and i should clarify this, for my own self. you're career limited? you cannot become an officer?

>> that is correct. due to the sessions policy regarding transgender service. that disqualifies a lot of people from moving further in their careers from enlisted officer. >> you're married. you have a wife. i know you don't have children but how does it affect benefits and other aspects of your service? >> for me, personally, it won't really affect me but i do know plenty of people that are facing being separated and for them it affects them deeply because now this steady income that their family was relying on, their kids are relying on, they are relying on, they now have to figure out what they are going to do. they left out what feels like in the cold in that sense when just yesterday they were planning steps for a lifelong career. >> what about your relationships among the cohesion of

transgender sfrs peopervice peo among the troops? how has the ban affected you in terms of way other people treat you in service? >> initially, as the ban was lifted, i kind of felt a great freedom to really be myself and be treated as such. my particular place is very welcoming to who i am. they recognize that. i've been to places that aren't as accepting and i have heard stories and also know people, personally, that are very limited. they may be told they can't do this or they can't do that because of where they are medically or because of people know they are transgender but they don't have official diagnosis. they are kind of scared and having to go back into hiding at

this point. >> thank you so much for speaking out. we hope you stay in touch. >> thank you. coming up, no holds barr. democrats accusing the attorney general of stone walling and covering up for the president. stay with us with on andrea mitchell reports only on msnbc. mitchell reports only on msnbc [beep] you should be mad your neighbor always wants to hang out. and you should be mad your smart fridge is unnecessarily complicated. but you're not mad, because you have e*trade which isn't complicated. their tools make trading quicker and simpler. so you can take on the markets with confidence. don't get mad. get e*trade and start trading today.

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it's quite a moment the other day. a noticeably frustrated chris van hol listlen trying to pin d the attorney general for why he concluded there was no reason to take action against the president. >> you never got your answers. maybe you will next week. it was very clear from the way he even characterized the mueller report that it was no exoneration on obstruction. how did he have the basis to decide not to prosecute? >> that was the question. he refused to answer. i wasn't asking him to divulge the content. i wanted to know how he concluded the president should be exonerated when mueller did not reach that conclusion and mueller says there were difficult issues of fact and law and the president's intent.

mip questions is do agree there were difficult questions. wouldn't answer. did you look into the president's intent? wouldn't answer. the president tweeted out he was exonerated on all charges when it's obviously he was not exonerated. >> he walk into this whole issue of spying. not referring to an authorized fisa warrant. supported by the inspector general throwing out spying. people close to the attorney general tried to clean it up further. does this make you that william

barr, for whatever his reputation in the past, has become the kind of attorney general that donald trump has long wanted? >> yes. i think when he used the political charge expression of spying, he lost whatever credibility he may have had. that was music to president trump's ears. trump immediately tweets it out. he says that a boy attorney general barr. if he was referring to the surveillance that we know took place pursuant to the fisa warrant and is currently being reviewed by the inspector general at doj, that's one thing. spying in itself had negative connotations and suggest there was wrong doing. he later tried to put the toothpaste back in the tube because he admitted at the hearing he had no evidence of wrong doing that he would present to the committee. all he did was float this charge. the president loved it and in the process, the attorney

general further undermined his credibility as an independent arbitor of justice. >> hasn't the president already branded this. i don't know what democrats can do politically because most people now, no collusion. exoneration. the president aided by the attorney general and his so called summary have kind of made the case. >> clearly when barr sort of came up with a different summary on obstruction of justice, on the crime of obstruction of justice than mueller then trump tried to get that around the world. mueller for good reasons did not exonerate the president on obstruction of justice and the public needs to learn why.

why did mueller say he could not exonerate the president on that. what barr, his reading of the report is he couldn't find beyond a reasonable doubt that the president committed the crime of obstruction of justice. he did that on his own. nobody asked him too, although the president loved it. without indicating what was the basis for his conclusion which is what i was trying to get at and he refused to answer. the report may come next week but it's going to be some time before we get barr back to answer questions about how he, attorney general barr, reached this conclusion. >> i want to ask you about a tweet that came from the president on something we were discussing at the top of the show, sanctuary cities where the white house said we abandoned that. it was too extreme.

due to the fact democrats are unwilling to change our very dangerous immigration law, we are giving consideration to placing illegal immigrants in sanctuary cities. only the radical left seem to want an open border policy, this should make them happy. >> even the folks at the white house realized this was so over the top and political that they shoun shouldn't be doing it. this is another example of the fact the trump administration is not interested in solving the problem. they are much more interested in playing politics with immigration. if they were interested, they wouldn't be yanking assistance from the central american countries which we need to beef up to make sure that people are safer there and are not fleeing to come to the border. they need to be working with

mexico to make sure we're able to handle the flow of people rather than trying to take a stick to mexico. obviously, the approach is not working. now they are just playing politics with it. >> we may have to leave it there. great to see you. thank you very much for being here. coming up, steve bannon takes on the pope. we have the exclusive report. ht nothing says spring like fresh flowers, so let's promote our spring travel deal on choicehotels.com like this: (sneezes) earn one free night when you stay just twice this spring.

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the man who helped pave donald trump's path to the white house is calling trump's win define providence after losing his job. steve bannon is on a new crusade against a pope he blames for failing to crack down hard enough on the sexual abuse scandal. richard engel explored this with bannon. >> why is steve bannon now taking -- >> because nobody else has stepped up to do it. >> reporter: his goal is to save the catholic church from the pope who he says is failing to deal with the biggest crisis facing the church today. >> my problem is about this crisis on pep fill ya, that they are not treating this as a crisis. >> they weaponize the sexual

abuse crisis to try and undermine his authority, his leadership and the affection people have for him as pope. >> bannon says he's spending about a million dollars of his own money to restore this 800-year-old monostair. >> he wanted to change america first, now the pope and beyond. >> how big is this campaign? >> it's pretty big. it's worldwide now. they don't like lgbt people, people of color, they don't seem to like the poor very much even though jesus spent most of his time with him in the gospel. >> bannonism. joining me now, richard engel. we know that steve bannon was operating in europe and a lot of the right-wing anti-immigrant

policies and parties are being supported by him. but i never knew that he was involved against the pope. >> it's all part of the same movement, frankly. so steve bannon has been spending a lot of time in europe. he's trying to energize these authoritarian generally right wing populist movements and he sees pope francis as an obstacle to that movement. so he's energizing an opposition, this is what he does best. this is the same thing he did for president trump. he latches onto a real issue and the sexual abuse scandal in the church is a real issue, and then he takes that and brings together a variety of people who have different grievances against the pope and he turns that into a movement. now, online people have been saying, why are you doing this? why are you giving steve bannon a platform? we're not.

we're exposing what he is really doing and he's releasing that enormous monostair on a hill top in the italian country side where he plans to publish a school to teach ju day owe christian values to a new generation of populist leaders. he says the pope as an opponent to this plan and he says this is all part of god's plan which first revealed itself with the election of president trump. >> divine providence allowed us to win in 2016, to draw the inside straight that we had to draw in the -- >> divine providence, you believe that, that trump was put in the white house because of divine intervention. >> divine providence look upon us. he's a very imperfect instrument, but he's an

instrument. >> of god? >> yes, of divine providence. >> so this is bannon who himself is catholic. this is his new calling if you will. he sees that trying to reinvitize the christian world and advise the pope is part of good's plan. >> against immigrants, against people who are needing of help. amazing, thank you so much, richard, for that. you can see it this sunday at 9:00 a.m. eastern. we'll be right back. t 9:00 a.m. eastern. we'll be right back. p3 snacks. the more interesting way to get your protein.

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and here is ali velshi and stephanie ruhle for "velshi & ruhle." >> have yourself an excellent afternoon. >> it is friday, april 12th, let's get smarter. >> a stunning new proposal in the ongoing immigration battle. trump administration officials sought to bust detained immigrants to sanctuary cities. >> they have these plans and they discarded them because they're so illegal. >> you have stephen miller in that vacuum stepping forward and saying to president trump, let's use executive authority. >> as complicated as this is, let's add on the rhetoric because that makes it mor