all right. that wraps up this hour of msnbc live. i'm phillip mena. it is now time for "weekends with alex witt." >> great to start the weekend with you, phillip. good morning. good morning to all of you from msnbc headquarters in new york. 7:00 a.m. in the east. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." a new flash point in the fight over immigration. >> more people in the sanctiuar cities. >> stepping on the traditional norms and rights. he never seems to be

accountable. >> miller versus kushner. a collision course in the oval office. attorney general william barr under fire and prompting questions who he serves. is it the president or the american people? developing this hour, increasing legal and political fallout as the president reviving a controversial immigration proposal that his administration had rejected as being unworkable and illegal. the president, though, still says he is strongly considering a plan to take central american immigrants, apprehended at the border, and bus them to so-called sanctuary cities. the president made clear this is in retaliation to democrats. >> we'll bring the illegal -- whatever you call them. illegals. they came across the border illegally. we'll bring them to sanctuary city areas and let that particular area take care of it. they want more people in the sanctuary cities.

we'll give them more people. we can give them an unlimited supply. they say we have open arms. let's see if they have open arms. >> democrats stating it is inhumane and unproductive. >> it is just another notion that is unworthy of the presidency of the united states and disrespectful the challenges we face as a country and people to address who we are. a nation of immigrants. >> this is another example that the fact that the trump administration is not interested in solving the problems. they are more interested in playing politics with immigration. >> just when you think donald trump's immigration policies couldn't get more outrageous, he out-does himself. >> the president is refuting new reporting from cnn and "the new york times" while vice tsiting border, he told the acting chief

mcaleenan he would pardon him. officials were alarmed. this all comes as a federal appeals court in california allowed the trump administration to return asylum seekers to mexico pending appeals. let's discuss this with julian manchester and david le vrventh. how do you do this? had a plan, floated. rejected. now the president says i'm still looking at it. why are they not on the same page? >> alex, president trump sometimes just says things. let's go back to 2015 when he proposed during the campaign a muslim ban. all muslims around preside s

would not enter the united states. you take it with a grain of solt anything that donald trump is saying with immigration in terms of whether it will become policy or not. this is something that donald trump is saying. everyone is talking about. the reality is, you know, will it ever happen? it is possible it will not. it is not as if the cities are off on some island. they are american cities. it really seems to under cut the notion that donald trump has been talking about for so long which people should not be let into the united states coming from other countries who should not be here legally. a lot of disagreement within the trump administration as to what the proper policy should be. trump will contradict his own aides. >> which begs the question, julia, what is the chance this plan happens to any degree? do we know where the money to

move these immigrants would come from? >> it is interesting, alex. there is already money allocated to having i.c.e. essentially hold immigrants in cells before their transport and also that applies to unaccompanied children as well. however, there is no money allocated to transporting all of the immigrants to the specific cities. that's one question to really consider here. you know, it is interesting. i think he is going to face a lot of backlash in congress obviously because congress controls the purse strings on a lot of this. that's one hurdle the president has to deal with. another thing we should keep in mind is these cities, that's sanctuary cities, have had pretty big victories against the president legally when he tried to go after them. i think the president is very much facing an uphill battle in this. i think officials of the department of homeland security are concerned about the chances of this really going through.

>> okay. guys, stay where you are. we have a lot more to discuss with the top stories. i want to bring in msnbc contributor katie phang. good morning. let's gets into this. the reports say the president is ordering officials to potentially commit an unlawful act. and if you get in trouble, legally speaking, i'll pardon you. not clear if the president was joking. of course his sense of humor is questionable as it is. how serious is this? are there legal implications here? >> it is incredible to think the president of the united states could actually invite an el little acti illegal action. especially was one who works for a federal official. presidential pardon power is vast. it has a huge breadth of ability. it pretty much is unlimited. it is not the intended purpose, alex, behind why donald trump would be able to do this. if he were to do this, not only

would i think there would be political fallout, but a potential challenge in court as if he has abused his presidential pardon power. >> has it happened before? the president would say you break the law. when you do, i got your back. >> that is interesting. sometimes we don't know how the sausage is made. in terms of prior presidential pardons, we have not known if the underlying criminal contact had anything to do with the president of united states. maybe a conversation with nixon and some of the people involved in the watergate scandal. as we know, nixon did not pardon these people. i don't think we have anything concrete to suggest this definitively happened. all sources indicate that did happen. if eventually donald trump was to sit there and become complicit in criminal conduct, then he is committing a crime. >> if you look back to kirstjen nielsen, who the president was unhappy with because she could

not do certain things the president wanted her to do, because it was illegal. even if the president is joking and it is not clear if he was, is he then talking about obstructing a law? in other words, he is acting like he's above the law. >> that's not the first we heard trump thinking he is above the law. he suggests that he knows there is a criminality and telling people go ahead and implement something adverse to the law and you don't have to suffer the consequences because i'll pardon you. that makes him a co- cconspirit. this is all kind of scuttle butt right now. >> nbc news is reporting that advisers discussed whether the military could build or run migrant detention camps. legally speaking, the act is

something that would be in violation of that? what can the military actually do here barring that act? >> that is a specific law. it really says you can't use the military to do what you otherwise would be doing in a law enforcement function on a local level. you cannot be using the united states federal forces to be deployed in that context. it has been challenged before in terms of what other people had done. right now, what we know is trump is traveling under an executive order that was challenged, but not legally challenged. that is giving him the blanket authority to be able to task and dispatch federal resources right now. >> katie, thank you. i appreciate that on saturday morning. back with us is julia manchester and david levinthal.

let's turn to the story of the president targeting representative omar with a graphic video. it showed the burning world trade center towers. the video included this part of the speech about civil rights. we'll play that. >> cair was founded after 9/11 because they recognized some people did something and all of us were starting to lose access to our civil liberties. >> in fact, just to be clear, cair was not founded in the wake of 9/11. it was founded earlier. it became larger after 9/11. that said, the intended audience is for what? is this just for his base? >> alex, first of all, representative omar said some things in the video that even

some democrats gave them pause. she probably could have said it in a better way in their opinion. that being said, this video was over the top. was effectively conflating representative omar with the attacks of 9/11 which is demonstrably untrue that she was in any way, shape or form involved. we talk about the base a lot. it is playing to the edges of president trump's base. this is nothing new. this is coming at a time when there is a lot of over the top and heightened rhetoric coming from the elements of the republican party in labeling democrats in incredibly bad terms. for example, we reported that representative alexandria ocasio-cortez was highlighted i

was called a domestic terrorist. this is the type of language that is used at times here. it is something that usually when you talk about domestic terrorist, you are talking about mass murderers, not sitting members of congress. >> that is an example of this. julia, the democrats, like aoc and elizabeth warren. they are saying it is the president inciting violence against omar. let's hear from max rose who criticized omar's comments. here it is. s>> the comments touched a nerv. it was insensitive and offensive. that is honest critique. what we see with the video is a hyper and dangerous and shameful escalation that divides this country. it is not what a leader is supposed to do. >> julia, interpret this.

are we seeing changes? are we seeing evidence of a divide among democrats? >> you know, i think you are seeing the democrats really trying to navigate this road between other establishment members and progressive fire brands like omar and alexandria ocasio-cortez. one thing i like to point out, alex, progressive democrats have been around for a while. however, it seems like with this influx within congress, especially women and women of color, it seems when there is a controversial comment made, people come down way harder on them than male members of congress who might have said similar things. overall, going back to the video. one thing that struck me about this, alex, there is not the first time president trump has

politicized 9/11. it was actually during 9/11 where he said there were celebrations in the muslim community in the new jersey area. >> yes. >> it is not that surprising that he has gone to this length, if you will, to criticize her. obviously she has become a very big target of his due to the comments on israel and he is trying to exploit what he says is a divide within the jewish community in america and her comments on that. >> okay. julia manchester and dave levinthal. good to see you. a good cop-bad cop issue in the white house. how jared kushner and stephen miller could be on a collision course on the border crisis. urs .

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they' don't stop them. we'll close the border. i'm not playing games. >> if in a year from now, drugs continue to pour in, we'll put tariffs on it. >> i don't mind closing the border. i'll do whatever is necessary to stop an invasion of our country. >> so new questions this morning as the president has shifted his position on closing the southern border. in an article this week, a divide in the white house revealing the two key players

who have the president's ear. jared kushner and stephen miller. reportedly at odds over the future of the immigration policy. joining me now is the author of the article. ashley parker. welcome, caashley. this was a really good read. you interviewed 21 different people with inside knowledge of the president's administration. what did you learn? >> you have two senior advisers in the white house, jared kushner, the president's son-in-law, and stephen miller, the adviser. they both have under the president's trust. they are untouchable baecause o the relationship with the president. as of now, they are working on different, but complementary tracks. they have different approaches and philosophies to immigration. people suspect that once one of them or the other comes up with

a plan, there's a chance they may really clash and the president is forced to side with one of them. >> they have different takes on how to go about handling immigration. how does this affect the policy? we heard the president right there. he goes back and forth. he is volleying. is it because he is getting two positions in his ears? he fires his top open efficientofficials at dhs as well. >> he is actually asking them to stake out two positions. stephen miller reflects the hard-line tough approach to immigration and rhetoric which is what we see from the president now. at the same time, during the government shutdown, the president asked jared kushner, he said you have a good relationship with mexico because of your work on trade. why don't you work with congress and mexicans to get a broader immigration deal which is something the president has flirted with. something to include border security and perhaps protections

for the dreamers. that's where we will see the intention. if jared comes up with that, is that something the president could get behind or will he allow himself to be pulled by miller back to the far right. >> being pulled to the far right, is that a 2020 campaign tactic? is miller driving that for the president? >> it's absolutely ae president identifying and inflaming these nation nationalistic issues. this is being driven by the president himself. his base likes the tough rhetoric. stephen miller is reminding him why is it a good idea to go in that direction. it is a fundamental misunderstanding to think miller is a puppet to go in the direction he is not comfortable. >> i'm curious, ashley. what did you learn about stephen

miller? did you get a sense of what motivates him? he is a mysterious character more so than jared kushner. >> stephen miller is fascinating. the senior policy adviser, but focuses on one policy. immigration. he has always been driven by immigration and restrictive hard-line approach. for miller, for all of that, he is playing the long game. unlike the other aides who are no longer in the white house, he wants to be here for four years or eight years. he believes driving immigration policy. he will not try to knife the president's son-in-law in the backhim. that is why you see them uneasily cou exists right now. >> that is because you think when push comes to shovel, if

the president has to choose, your money is on kushner? >> it's a tough call. kushner is in many ways untouchable because of the familial ties to the president. the president is unwilling to jettison jared on that front. at the same time, if the president had to choose on immigration, his gut and heart and rhetoric is a bit more with stephen miller. >> ashley, good to see you. thanks so much. democrats in congress are not the only one to threaten the shutdown on the border. why one republican says it would be bad for everybody. it would be bad for everybody in the water, in the water, you ready for this? she doesn't like it... you've gotta get in there. okay. careful not to get it in her eyes. i know, i know what a bath is...

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next battle 2020. saturday on the stump. beto o'rourke and elizabeth warren with four events each today. all six will appear for 16 events. on the matter of fund raising, bernie sanders leads with the first quarter with $18 million. as a result of small dollar donors. seven democrats raised $63 million. that is less than the $85 million that the top democrat

presidential candidates raised for the first quarter of 2007. let get more on the threat to retaliate against democrats over bussing immigrants to sanctuary cities. we have representative of the dallas ft. worth area of texas. sir, welcome. thank you for being here. i appreciate that. >> hello, alex. >> let's get to the dallas area. is that a sanctuary city? >> there's no such thing. i wish people would not use that term. if you break the law in dallas, you are going to be arrested and prosecuted just like anyone else. there's no such thing as that term. it's a term that republicans invented to be difficult vivisi.

>> do you get feed baback on th president's bussing of immigrants to cities that have been designated by him? >> we got lots of feedback. people thought it was another cruel way how he uses immigrants as pawns. look, if he were to say democrats and republicans, send me an immigration reform bill, i believe we can do our part in the house with the democrats in control. if he were to say that, i think it would give mitch mcconnell cover to pass something in the senate. since he doesn't have the courage to do it on his own, he would need cover. i think that that is what the president should be doing instead of using immigrants and trying to pit and make his base upset at immigrants. the way he is doing this is sick. it is terrible. i think it does point back to

someone that was mentioned earlier in the segment before i came on. and that is stephen miller. i think he is the architect behind this regardless of what trump says. i think they share sort of a common value and common goals. that is we're going to pit communities against each other and make immigrants the foil. i think what is happening is bad and i had a group from the dallas chamber of commerce usual tend to be republican. an immigrant group came to meet with me in dallas. they said we need to pass bills. the business community and the activist community coming together for common sense solutions. we need for the same thing to happen with the president and senate and we'll do our part in the house. >> you are telling me the business community there is aligned with the immigrant

community and they are saying there is good reason to welcome these people to their cities from a prosperous perspective. >> absolutely. if you talk with anyone from agriculture to hospitality to construction and home building, they will tell you, we do not have the adequate work force or numbers to sustain the vibrant economy we have here. instead of all of the hateful rhetoric from the trump administration, we need for people to come together. i was really happy to see someone from the chamber of commerce at one of the immigrant groups that tend to lean more toward our side on the left come together to my office and say let's stop all of this nonsense and let's do something. i had a group of cattlemen. they came to the capitol in their cowboy boots and hats in texas. some of the conservative parts

of west texas. they said we need to do something about immigration. enough of this rhetoric. these are some of the most conservative voices you will meet in texas. >> what do they want to have done? they say you have to do something. what do they say? >> absolutely. first of all, the deportations are scaring their work force. they want an end to deportation. the other thing they would like to see is a comprehensive bill. more importantly, what they want to see in a comprehensive bill is something that deals with what we need moving forward. instead of it being a short-term solution, what do employment needs look like in 2030 and 2040 so we can come up with a true guest visa worker program especially in the field of agriculture where we could actually plan for the numbers we need long-term instead of having to do this every few years.

>> congress member, before i move on, what is their take? those people who come to yours offi your office on building a wall? >> people think it is crazy. they are against it. i talked about the conservative voices wanting us to do something. some of the ranchers in south texas in the valley, those are the most conservative people you will ever meet. they are against a wall. if you talk with the mayors of the border towns on the u.s. side, they will tell you that they do not want to see a wall. they do not want to see their towns become military zones. the solution again put forward by the president and i believe in my heart, stephen miller, they are wrong headed. >> congress member, one quick question here on the president's tweet. in response to congress member omar. it is a graphic video. it showed the burning trade center towers and other images

from 9/11. some have criticized omar and her comments and described them as offensive. how do you come down on this? >> i wish she had obviously articulated that differently than she did. you know, there's also video of trump talking on 9/11 and a lot of people thought the way he described it on the actual day talking about buildings he owned in the area. people think he was being insensitive the way he described it. people were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. i think that omar is a loyal american and she is working hard to serve her district like the rest of us are. people need to stop picking on her. >> congress member marc veasey. thank you. we have a round table

discussion on "up with david gura." we have a look at what is coming up. >> we have a great show coming up. i'm looking forward to two con var conversations in particular. david jones has been doing a lot on the security breach at mar-a-lago. the woman trying to get into the club with a thumb drive and cell phones and a laptop. she has been charged and is due back in court. david is looking into a guy called charles lee. and another chinese national who has ties to the woman with access to mar-a-lago. we will look at feud with donald trump and jerry nadler. they started brawling in manhattan in real estate. now they are facing off in washington. we are talking about the history. alex. >> that sounds good. thank you. you can't get enough of it.

coming up in a few hours, joy reid is talking about presidential candidate cory booker at 10:00 a.m. here on msnbc. julian assange out of one kind of lock up. now behind bars in another. how he is the center of the extradition debate and multiple countries are vying for the first dibs on the wikileaks founder. rst dibs on the wikilea founder.who's ♪ ♪

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in the british parliament over whether julian assange should be extradited to the united states. the bbc reporting that more than 70 members of the british parliament are pushing for assange to go to sweden if that country requests his extradition. we have keir simmons in the london bureau. is he likely to come to the u.s. or push to get him to sweden may win out? >> reporter: i think it will take a long time. by that i mean years before he is seen in the u.s. if he ever is. that is the experience in previous extradition battles with similar issues to this. alex, i know we don't live in an era of open minds, but everybody needs to view this as objectively as you can. think about what is at play. the american security and intelligence establishment. you have the russian establishment. you have the journalists and

journalism establishment all with opinions and insuranfluencr the julian assange case. here is what they are saying here. they are saying hold on a minute. how is it it appears the british authorities and american authorities were aware the ecuadorians were going to release assange from the embassy. the swedes were not told. they had a charge against him that could be rape. allegation of potentially rape. why were they not involved? that is one of the questions that british lawmakers are asking. they say sweden should have the first say on where he goes and then you will hear from his lawyers and supporters in the months and years ahead. they will make the argument that he is a publisher and really america wants to prosecute him for the things he published.

i spoke to his lawyer some months ago. listen to what she had to say. the same message as wikileaks are saying now. >> there is clear precedent in the united states under the constitutional law around the first amendment that the journalists are not involved and if they receive information, they are not implicated in the criminal act by anybody else in disclosing the information. this is a very important protection. if put in the hands of the trump administration, put in the hands of president trump who called the mainstream media in the u.s., the enemy of people, this is dangerous precedent. >> reporter: what the doj is saying, alex, no, no, no. we simply want him over a charge that he conspired with chelsea manning while she was trying to break into u.s. military secret computer systems and that's the

only reason for the five--year sentence if he is convicted. again, this is political, alex, as well as legal. >> i'm curious where he is right now because he is in the london prison. it is called the british kwa guantanamo. >> reporter: i don't know. he jumped bail already once. that will give them reason he could be suspected of doing that again. if you have seen the stories of the conditions in that room in the embassy where he is was for seven years. it sounds pretty appalling. that is one of the reasons the ecuadoreans say he wanted out. he may be getting medical attention now and a shower and things like that.

however, just being convicted of jumping bail means he will be in prison in the uk for a year. at least that's the sentence. this is going to play out over a sustained period of time. >> can i ask you about the cat? look, that's something. we have seen all of these pictures in the cat for some time. do we know the fate of the cat? i think npr is just saying this cat is now with the family because they suggested they were going to put the cat in the pound, right? >> reporter: right. the ecuadoreans said this is why we needed julian assange leave. a number of things we won't talk about on air because it is disgusting. at the end of all of that list of the reasons why is because he was a bad house guest and there was the cat. they say he didn't treat the cat well. you can imagine them thinking and people around the world saying the cat?

the poor cat? those supporters of assange say is that the cat is with family. i'm not sure whether that means the wikileaks family or julian assange's family. we're told by his supporters that the cat is fine. >> i'm glad because seriously i was worried about that. just saying. keir simmons, thank you so much from london. a week of turmoil in the department of homeland security. one joins us next over how the president may be dealing with the threat over sanctuary cities. y citi n understatement, because i sawww justin timberlake. so he literally looked into the phone and started dancing-- well, he was already dancing-- locked eyes and continued dancing. every now and then, i'm like, "wait, did that happen?" (gasps) i've got photos of it, it must have. (vo) get more music on us with verizon up, the rewards program that gets you vip tickets to the best concerts and more. plus, save big when you switch. only on verizon.

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we will be welcoming to those who come and treat them as human beings and not political pawns. >> that is the denver mayor reaffirming his commitment to undocumented immigrants in the wake of the president's threat to send migrants to sanctuary cities. we have jess o'connell and strategist lauren claffey. welcome to both of you, ladies. lauren, considering what i said, you worked with kirstjen nielsen and you worked with kevin

mcaleenan. give me a sense of both of them. are they like minded? how is your sense that kirstjen nielsen leaving, of course, the president getting rid of her. your sense of their personalities and how they are going at the immigration stuff with the president. on stuff with the psident they both have a very honest and strong commitment to the rule of law. what they both have dealt within different capacities and you are seeing it come out in the news lately is there has been a lack of understanding of the way the laws are strauctured with immigration or enforcement or not a willingness to push the boundaries and push back on things that

were not legallyicable for the best interest of the department. >> so kirstjen nielsen was let go because she would not push back on things she deemed to be illegal? >> there's always a tension how far you can push back with this president and some of the president's. and she effectively was trying to solve the problem at the border which isn't hers, it was congress'. >> how about the point -- essentially i'm paraphrasing -- you break the law and i got you back because i will pardon you if you get in trouble legally speaking? >> i don't know if that was said or not but i know kevin is someone who wouldn't break the law. so it makes that point mute. the same report was he was saying some things to cdp officers who led to confusion on the ground to what they should

or should not be doing with leadership judges and kevin clarified they were to follow the law. so i think there's a divide there. >> okay. one more question before i get to you, jess, do you think the president's prospect of dumping undocumented immigrants into sanctuary cities goes a little too far? >> it's illegal. it was the conversation floated by the white house multiple times and shot down repeatedly by the career officers of the department of homeland security, which is why they're there to make sure there's legal review. not only would to be illegal because of the political motivations behind it but it would be illegal because they would have to appropriate funds -- use funds that weren't appropriated for that purpose. >> jess, what do you make of the president putting this idea out there and framing it as a way to get back at democrats? it's political, you know, retribution in a sense for those who oppose positions on the border immigration?

>> this is classic textbook trump. he focuses on his political enemies. this is the exact thing we should expect from donald trump. the good news is, and i hope lauren is right, people will stand up and protect them. i think former homeland security janet napolitano said the other day this is inconsistent with our laws, and it's true. we need congress to step up and help solve this problem because we know donald trump will simile use this as a distraction and use this a way to to score political points. and it's chilling, it's chilling he's willing to use people to score political points and not the first time he has done it, look at puerto rico and transgender americans. this is what this president does. expect it from him and we need folks to fight back against it and make sure they stand up to the law and that's what we will count on from officials over there. >> there are a lot of big changes over there, nielsen out,

claire grady, ron vitelle are all out of the picture. what are you hearing about on that side of the department right now? >> morale is really low right now. i've said this before, acting officials are in a hard spot. in terms of leadership marshaling your forces to get jobs done, it is already a difficult job. departmenting the department of homeland is a difficult job. and societal issues and protecting against terrorism and national disaster,s it n it's nt immigration. so there are a lot of concerns who will be around, who will be the boss in a couple of months? that will affect the work product. this is the one department we don't need that from. they're often on the front lines

for the american people >> what do you think this means for immigration policy and national security overall? >> i totally agree. these are professionals being asked to do un professional things. i 100% agree donald trump likes the acting positions to move people around and play this game he's playing but the reality is this is important for national security. homeland has a big important job. we have a lot of areas we should be investing time and energy in, particularly to the run-up to elections, protecting democracy here. a lot of things we need to be focused on and now this manufactured crisis president trump keeps going back to. this is the guy focused on art of the distraction, not the art of the deal. he wants us distracted from the mueller report, wants us distracted from the things that could harm him so he keeps going back to people to use this as political pawns >> before i let you go, i can i ask you quickly how you think kirstjen nielsen likes beings labeled as putting forth the

disastrous policy of separating families at the border? >> i think she owned it doing the press conference back in the height of all of it, defending the policy. i think she knows what she got into do that. but knowing what happened behind the scenes, what was happening behind the scenes, she was trying to not have this policy go forward and that's something in the news you may see come out later. >> ladies, thank you so much. ahead, why the bad blood and judiciary chairman nadler traces back to the '80s. back to the '8s why hasn't the way you bank? virtual wallet from pnc bank helps make it easier to see what you're spending, stash more into savings and stay on top of your finances in a digital world. just one way pnc is modernizing banking to help make things easier.

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simple, easy and awesome. "this weekend with alex witt." stay tuned for "up with david gura." this is "up." i'm david gura. this morning president trump's hardline immigration policy continues to evolve when it comes to immigrant detainees. the president said he's considering something a senior official said was off the table. >> we will bring them to sanctuary city areas, and let that particular area take care of it. >> president trump doubling down on that on twitter. another of the president's posts being criticized featuring these