my thanks to kim, rick, the rev and donnie and to all of you for watching, thank you so much. that does it for our hour. cruel and unusual punishment. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. remember how president trump said a week ago he was going to get tougher on immigrants? since then he's decapitated the leadership of his department of homeland security for not implementing his hard line policies and now he's found another way to air his frustrations. this time embracing a plan to use migrants, detain migrants as pawns to retaliate against his political enemies. "the washington post" first reported the proposal noting

administration officials proposing releasing immigrant detainees in sanctuary cities, at least twice in the past six months. the report went on to add the white house told u.s. immigration and customs format that the plan was to alleviate a shortage of space and serve as a message to democrats. the president confirmed the report in a pair of tweets saying he was giving strong consideration to this plan and the white house this afternoon, he expanded upon that. >> california certainly is always saying, oh, we want more people, and they want more people in their sanctuary cities, well, we'll give them more people. we can give them a lot. we can give them an unlimited supply. let's see if they're so happy. they say we have open arms. they're always saying we have open arms. let's see if they have open arms. the alternative is to change the laws and we can do it very very quickly, very easily. okay. >> do you like the use of the word supply, like supply of people?

yesterday a dhs spokesperson told nbc news it was a suggestion that was floated and rejected and a former dhs official said the plan was ultimately scrapped when it was determined to be so illegal. earlier today, house speaker nancy pelosi whose district in san francisco was among those the white house wanted to target attacked the idea. >> it's just another notion that is unworthy of the presidency of the united states and disrespectful of the challenges that we face as a country, as a people to address who we are, a nation of immigrants. >> nbc news reports trump's advisers discussing increasing military involvement at the border, including creating ten -- tent city detention camps for migrants. i'm joined by janet napolitano, secretary of homeland security. madame president, as well,

you're -- you headed a california college system and everything. so let me ask you about this, what do you make of trump and what he's up to disbursing, talking about disbursing detained migrants to cities where he wants to punish the mayors and the democrats? >> well, i think the notion of using migrants as political pawns is inconsistent with our values and inconsistent with the law. and logistically, not feasible, it's not something that's within the i.c.e. budget, what are we going to do, take i.c.e. agents off the line to transport immigrants to sanctuary cities? this seems to me a misguided and ill thought out proposal. >> what do you think about him saying i'm going to tell mcaleenan the new guy, i'll tell him to do something illegal, and then if he does something illegal because i told him to, i'll pardon him. >> you know, i think -- first of all, i know kevin mcaleenan, and i know that he will want to obey the law, and for the president

to even suggest that he will pardon an official in advance for any violation of the law, again, ill thought out, inconsistent with our values, just really awful. >> i'd like to go back to the norm in my head and what a centrist democrat, centrist republican, somewhere in the middle public servant president would do with the border right now, with this surge going on. right now we're facing a lot of asylum seekers, most of them legitimate, perhaps, you could say, but over a million. on an annual basis, they're all coming in for whatever reason they found out that under this certain situation we are facing right now, if you come here with a child, you're probably going to get through and you won't have to face any kind of hearing until like 2021, what do you do? what do we do? >> i think there's a number of things that can be done. first of all, we should actually

flood the border with what i think of as the rule of law. we should be moving immigration judges and indeed other administrative law judges from other departments to the border so that we can effectively and efficiently process these asylum claims consistent with the rule of law, consistent with whether the applicants can show or demonstrate a credible fear of persecution in their country of origin. and then we need to get away from this concept that everybody has to be detained. we can release people into the country. they can be required to wear an ankle bracelet. they can be required to report back periodically. until such time as they get a return court date. >> what do you think of the -- i want to have an expert on, especially somebody who's not on the hard right, which you're certainly not. what do you do with the whole

question of border control or sovereignty, what would a reasonable, humane president do? >> well, first of all, i think you need to think of the border as a zone. it's a zone through which thousands upon thousands of trucks and cars pass every day. mexico is our number two or three leading trading partner. and so you have to think about it from a strategic point of view. you need to strengthen the ports of entry. you need to add more technology to those ports so the traffic can be inspected and processed through ever more quickly. you need to add manpower and technology between the ports of entry by technology there, i mean, sensors, tunnel detection equipment and you need air cover, things like drones across the entire expanse of the border. it's that combination of things that we deployed under president obama, we drove illegal immigration to 40 year lows at

that point in time. >> it's great to have you on here. great public servant, janet napolitano. thank you for coming on "hardball" tonight. >> thank you. >> during a trip to texas earlier this week, president trump lamented the military couldn't be tough on the border. i'm going to have to call up more military. but our military, don't forget, can't act like a military would act. because if they got a little rough, everybody would go crazy. so our military can't act like they would normally act or let's say another military from another country would act. >> meanwhile, nbc news reports that during conversations about using the military to build tent cities for migrants, officials discussed whether the u.s. military could legally run the camps once the migrants are housed there. noting it was unlike since u.s. law prohibits the military from directly interacting with migrants.

i'm joined by correspondent for pbs news hour, david mill brand, president and ceo of the rescue committee and former british secretary, and charlie seiss. i think napolitano, knows how all the challenges of border control and knows the wall isn't the answer. also knows that we have a problem, a real challenge facing up to a million people or more on a monthly basis. over a million people now trying to get into this country, probably in most cases, legitimately, but a lot of people to be handled. >> this is the president using immigrant bodies to make a political statement and to punish democrats. we saw that first when he separated migrant families in staying if you want to come to this country, we're going to physically remove your child from you, now they're saying i'm going to empty people into your cities. cites are saying hope for the worst, hope that

something happens in san francisco and figure out what's happening. >> you look at what happened to bill clinton, he was governor of arkansas for two years, the maryell boat load was dumped on them, all those people, all kinds of people, criminals included, from cuba, next thing, he was out of office. >> i have talked to people current and former officials, the president wants to do something that's actually illegal. he wants dhs to have policies that are literally not part of international law or u.s. law. he's going to have to work with congress to fix those laws or change those laws in his mind or he's not going to be able to do that. white house officials have told me they don't want people coming into the country who live in bad neighborhoods, that's how the white house looks at gang violence, poverty, all the issues facing central america and result the president is trying to do as much as he can to change the asylum laws but he can't do that from the white house. >> charlie sykes, this seems like an 8-year-old. the kind of thing you would have in the back of the car when the two kids are fighting. he's on my side, she's on my side. i'm going to get her. i'm going to push over.

i'm going to push some of these detained migrants into san francisco. i'll show nancy. it's like a battle between kids with him being the kid. >> it is, and this is, you know, donald trump unchained, and you're seeing his pettiness, his vindictiveness, his contempt for the rule of law. what really strikes me, this is like a twitter troll mimicking a policy. it seems as much designed to trigger the libs as it is to actually solve the problem. this is the kind of idea that steven miller would come up with, you know, sitting around drinking beer at the frat house, and go this would be great. imagine if we dumped all of these immigrants in nancy pelosi's district. but the fact that it's taken as serious policy right now, and people do need to take it seriously. this is a president who in the last week fired the head of the department of homeland security because she was not cruel enough, and number two, she refused to break the law. it's amazing that we find the president pushing policies that are more cruel and that

require the violation of the law. he's getting in touch with his inner banana republicanism. . >> yeah. i'm just thinking, david, the full geography of this country, but i can imagine trying to flood the zone and a tender loin. the homeless people in san francisco, let's get a couple hundred thousand more homeless out there and see how nancy likes that. that's the kind of threat he's posing now. thanks for coming on. your thoughts? >> i think it's important first of all to emphasize that we're seeing the symptoms of crisis in the sense that the real origin of this crisis are in the northern triangle of el salvador, guatemala, and honduras. we're an international humanitarian aid agency. so we're in el salvador. i can testify for myself some of the conditions that people are fleeing from. but we're also working in the southern border. we have teams today in phoenix, as well as in california, and what we're seeing is a system whose very essence is being undermined by policies that frankly are having a perverse effect. remember the twitter trolling that we're seeing this week

follows up a couple of years in which things like the abolition of temporary protected status, which protects 250,000 el salvadorians who are in the united states already and are sending remittances back to el salvador. the end of that policy is going to have a perverse effect. >> we call them dreamers. >> no, the dreamers are a second category. i'm talking about the 250,000 are a celebrate group. >> briefly, i'm sorry, it's great to have you on because you've just been there. tell me what conditions would lead a family to head up to our southern border. how bad is it in those countries? >> the simplest way of putting it is if you fear your life. we offer support for people in fear of gangs. we work around the world in syria, somalia, we also work in el salvador because the threat of life and limb is real.

it's the responsibility of rich countries to run asylum processing systems that take each case seriously and then ensure that those who are entitled to stay are able to do so. i think it's worth pointing out, to you, that while it's right that 100,000 people arrived in this country last month, germany, another advanced industrialized country, they had a million and a half people who arrived in 2015, 2016, from syria, they have an asylum processing system, that takes eight to ten weeks. in this country, three years. that's about how you run your system, as well as the wisdom of it. >> how is that working politically in germany, that amount of people coming from syria? >> it's interesting, mrs. markle took a bold decision. she's sitting at 65% popular rating. and it's not because she's retiring. it's true that there's been real

engagement, even political strife and argument about it, you can -- it's right to be concerned that far right parties try to exploit the situation, but germany is one of the most stable countries in western europe. >> she's the best. she's the best leader around. >> i think it's too easy to say she lost popularity because of that decision. sure it was a tough decision but she was making up for the failure of the rest of the europe to help with the syrian crisis. >> president trump has repeatedly threatened to shut down the border with mexico to stem the flow of migrants. "the new york times" reports that during a visit to the border last week, the president urged kevin mcaleenan who is about to be named as acting secretary of homeland security to close the southwestern border despite having just said he was delaying a decision on this for a year. the report goes on to add it was not clear what mr. trump meant by his request or additional comment that he would pardon him if he encountered any illegal problems as a result of taking the action. nbc news has not independently confirmed this report. charlie, this is an amazing thing. i mean, as janet napolitano

said, to promise somebody i'm going to tell you something now, i want you to do something illegal on my new dhs acting secretary. but don't worry, i'll pardon you afterwards. >> that is extraordinary. first of all, closing the border is reckless and economically disastrous. the whole point of telling, if in fact the president told government officials you can break the law and i will pardon you indicates that we are in a new phase. i mean, remember, this is a president that's already pardoned sheriff joe arpaio for violating immigration laws. what happens to the rule of law if in fact the president openly says i will pardon you if you ignore the law. closing the border may be the bridge too far for the republicans in the senate but this is really one of those moments where people in the senate, mitch mcconnell have to make it very very clear that no, if you start abusing the pardon authority to violate constitutional rights or federal law, that's too far, we're not

with you on this. >> play god. is this for helping trump politically in the next election or hurting him, this whole she bang we're talking about. >> i think the idea is if you're looking at his core base which is really what the president and sources tell me he is focussed on, this is helping him. it's something simple that people understand, this idea that i'm going to punish the democrats by letting you see the migrants walk around san francisco but i think the important thing is to talk about the pardon issue, i think about back to james comey and where the president said i want your loyalty. this president is asking the new head of dhs to give him his loyalty to do whatever it takes to follow through with the president's plans, and we're not sure whether or not, and i think a lot of people, the jury is still out whether the president gets that same loyalty back. even if he's dangling this pardon, there's no real sense he might actually go through and pardon him. >> if that's not impeachable, i don't know what is. a president of the united states using his authority to tell government senior officials,

cabinet level people, break the law, i'll cover you, that to me goes right across the line of abuse of power. thank you, i can't seizure alcindor, david mill brand, and charlie sykes. i'm going to go one on one with former cia director, and former secretary of defense, and former chairman of the house budget committee, leon panetta. political intrigue toward the vatican, why is trump's guy, stephen bannon, going to war with pope francis, and he's over there in the vatican doing it. and also trump's tax secrets, what would be so embarrassing that this president still refuses to release his taxes and he's actually threatening the liberty of steve mnuchin, his secretary of treasury right now. how is that looming show down with congress going to play out? much more ahead. stick with us. from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase sensimist relieves all your worst symptoms,

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yamiche alcindorthree weeks sinr welcome back, it's been three weeks since robert mueller submitted his report to attorney general william barr, and still we have almost no idea of what the roughly 400-page mueller report actually is or says. in its place, we're left with the attorney general's interpretation as well as his opinion that the fbi spied on the trump campaign. that's another thought. here he goes. >> i think spying on a political campaign is a big deal. it's a big deal. so you're not suggesting, though, that spying occurred? >> i don't -- well, i guess you could -- i think there's a spying did occur, yes, i think spying did occur. >> well, the president picked up on what barr said and accused democrats of treason, a crime of course punishable by death. let's watch. >> you know, when the democrats go behind the scenes and they go into a room backstage and they sit and they talk, they laugh because they know it's all a big

scam, a big hoax, and it's called politics, but this is dirty politics, and this is actually treason. it's a very bad thing that people have done and i just hope that law enforcement takes it up because if they don't take it up, they're doing a great disservice to our country. >> deputy attorney general rod rosenstein gave a preview of what might be in the mueller report. according to bloomberg news during a speech to a private group today, rosenstein said that special counsel robert mueller's report describes russian cyber crimes during the 2016 election, and the report would clear up questions about the russian campaign to interfere in the election that president donald trump won. i'm joined by leon panetta, former cia director, former secretary of defense under president obama. mr. secretary, you left politics when it was normal. here you are back in a world that is not normal. i don't know, the president in the last segment you were watching, he was talking about disbursing detained migrants to parts of the country.

he doesn't want them to enjoy themselves, and he wants them to have trouble and cause trouble in, it's an 8-year-old, and now we have barr who i thought was a real, something of a washington heavyweight, now behaving more like a toady saying things like spying because the president chose that word. saying the fbi was spying when it was really doing its job of counterintelligence, which it's there to do. your thoughts? >> chris, i think we have all gone down the rabbit hole with donald trump into wonderland. i have no idea what the hell is going on here with the president who acts like a punchdrunk fighter, kind of striking out in all directions. and you know, i guess what bothers me is i thought that the new attorney general had some

credibility based on his past experience, and recognizes that when you're attorney general, you're chief enforcer of the law. you're not somebody who's supposed to act on every whim from the president of the united states. so i'm a little disappointed in what he said because the reality is that there was an investigation into russian interference in our election. that was a legitimate investigation and one that the fbi should have conducted. >> but there's barr making the case that it was tainted from the beginning because it was ill founded and it was somehow -- it was somehow the work of bad people in the deep state that did this whole thing. >> well, you know, i guess there's plenty of paranoia to go around in washington with this president, but it worries me when the attorney general reflects that same paranoia. the reality is that, you know, we had 18 agencies.

we've had committees in the congress all confirm that the russians interfered in our election process. that's a reality. that's a fact. and the fact that they were able to determine that early on and we're trying to find out just exactly what was going on with regards to russian interference. i think is a legitimate area of investigation and the attorney general hasn't cited any evidence that i'm aware of to indicate that that was not legitimate. >> let's talk about next week, it looks like it's going to be tuesday, mr. secretary, tuesday or wednesday at the latest, we're going to get some form of the mueller report. the way that barr has done it, maybe with the help of rosenstein, is to set this spin in action, almost like a preview of a movie you watch on television every hour until you see the same preview. it's like he set up an expectation that's going to exonerate the president. it's not going to have really anything at all to do with collusion, and it will be a

mixed bag, probably bottom line an exoneration on obstruction. by the time we actually get the document, do you think we'll be able to get a clear view of it because of all of this pr we have gotten from the attorney general? >> yeah, i think it would be well for the american people and all of us to not jump to any conclusions until we have seen the mueller investigation. and i mean seen the heart and soul of that investigation. if they engage in a practice of redacting half of that report so that we don't get the substance of it, i think it really is going to be a miscarriage of their responsibility in terms of providing the american people with the truth here. and ultimately, let's face it, chris, this report is going to come out. one way or another, it may not happen now, maybe happen in three or four months, but this report is going to come out

sometime and the american people are going to see exactly what the mueller investigation determined and frankly, that's what we are entitled to. >> let me ask you about something, you have worked with regular presidents, they're not perfect people. you have worked with regular presidents, and when they are confronted by one of their cabinet secretaries with one of the restraints on their authority, because it is a form of limited government, limited power of presidents, what do they normally do, mr. president, you can't do that, what do they normally do? >> you know, you need to, if we had somebody who was not just an acting chief of staff or a real chief of staff would stare the president in the face and say mr. president you cannot violate the law. your responsibility as president of the united states is to uphold the rule of law in this country. you swear to uphold and defend and protect the constitution of the united states.

you cannot go around as president telling people that they can go ahead and violate the law and that somehow you'll pardon them after they violate the law. that goes against every responsibility and duty that a president of the united states ought to exercise. >> so great you said that, mr. secretary, because when i was a staffer on the hill when you were a member of congress, that was what we said to each other about our bosses, that they need that counsel, they need somebody to say, you know, don't do that. this is not the right thing to do, and guys that you knew got in trouble that weren't getting that kind of counselling. back in july of 2017, president trump announced a blanket ban on transgender military service arguing our military must be focused on decisive and overwhelming victory. today nearly two years after the administration tried to come up with a policy that could withstand legal challenges, that ban is taking effect. according to the new regulation, any individual who identifies as transgender will have to serve

in their sex assigned at birth. this policy reverses a 2016 decision by the obama administration that allowed openly transgender personnel to serve openly. you had the experience of dealing with rank and file, with the field ranked people. what do you think of this decision to ban people like this, people in this situation? >> i think it's not only the wrong decision, but it really is going to in the end hurt, i think, morale in the military. we are the strongest military on the face of the earth, and the reason we're strong is because we allow people to serve in the military whether they're women, whether they're transgender, whether they're gay, and the reality is -- and i've seen it as secretary of defense -- that these people served in an outstanding fashion in uniform.

they were willing to put their lives on the line for the united states of america. that's what service to this country is all about. and when you say, oh, no, we can't have that particular group serve in the military, you are hurting our military and more importantly, you're hurting the message we send to the rest of the world about just exactly what is the united states represent. >> mr. secretary, you sound like a great american president. thank you so much for speaking those words to us tonight. i mean it, you are, you would be a great president. i mean it, thank you so much, sir. >> up next, ultra conservatives, including steve bannon, are ramping up criticism of pope francis for his progressive views. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has an unusual assignment tonight. he joins me to talk about his exclusive interview with steve bannon. there they are in st. peter's square. we're back in a moment. or what i witnessed,

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- cis choosing to nurtureild and emotionally support children in urgent need. it's not just about opening up your home; it is also about opening up your heart. consider fostering. welcome back to "hardball." former trump adviser, steve bannon, building an incubator br for bugged right wing ideal logs. >> he's constantly coming back and putting all the faults in the world on this populist nationalist movement. let's listen. >> he's constantly putting all the faults in the world on this populous nationalist movement.

>> maybe he's right. maybe these right wing movements are a problem. >> nonsense. >> there are people who are going to see this and think, oh, no, steve bannon, the guy who helped put trump in the white house now has his sights set on the vatican. just stop. >> why would they think that? >> because it's true. that's what you're doing. you're trying to bring change to this institution. >> this institution needs change. this institution is in decline, and i think people will say that. >> so this is just the beginning. >> this is the very beginning. this is going to take years. >> steve bannon also criticized the pope for his handling of the ongoing sexual abuse scandal by priests in the catholic church. >> my problem with the pope today is about this crisis on pedophilia that they are not treating this as a crisis. >> well, this comes after former pope benedict published a letter saying the scandal was caused by a breakdown in traditional values. i'm joined by richard engel

whose full interview will air on sunday on msnbc. richard, it's an unusual disappointment for you. i'm used to you in dangerous situations. this is just troubling. the idea that steve bannon is going after my church and blaming it for being anti-pop ulist and causing the clerical scandal. i don't see the connection. >> let me set the context here. this is not just us giving steve bannon an opportunity to mouth off about the church. we did more than just sit down and interview with him. this is an investigation. we looked into a movement that steve bannon is -- he's a part of that is going after pope francis and it is very much the same movement that is driving the right-wing populist movements across the united states and the same movement, the same tactics, the same strategy that helped bring president trump to the white house. so there is this loose coalition

of people who have grievances with pope francis who think that pope francis is really deep down a liberal and they don't like him, and steve bannon is doing what he always does. he is energizing this movement and he is front and center of this movement. >> i was at a church meeting a couple of weeks ago, and it was off the record but i got to tell you, there's a lot of anger in my church, the roman catholic church about the sexual abuse of young people, not just people who were prepubescent. it's abuse of their role as priests with young boys and young women in some cases and it's been covered up. that's the problem. and how does bannon connect that coverup with liberalism? >> so bannon is focussing on this issue. most of the time that i spent with him, he wanted to talk about the abuse scandal and he

says that the church isn't handling it, that the church has been covering it up and that is very legitimate criticism. you hear that all the time. you have been hearing that for many many years. and what people, however, who are critical of bannon and what he's doing is they say, yes, this is a real crisis, yes, it is something that francis is dealing with or maybe francis needs to deal with better, but that bannon and others around him are weaponizing it. they are using a legitimate issue and using it to hammer francis because they have other issues with him, which is that he doesn't like the populist movement that he's been reaching out to the gay community, that he's been reaching out to migrants, and that that is the real problem with him. >> well, that is a problem with him because that's why i like the guy. anyway, thank you. those are the reasons we like him anyway. >> we didn't even mention the monastery. he's also building a monastery. this isn't just a man who's idealogically opposed, he is

putting together a huge facility on a hill top outside of rome. i went to visit it. we filmed over it with a drone. it is an 800 room monastery that bannon is using some of his own personal money to refurbish and this is going to be the center of his movement. so a lot is going on here. >> well, all the people i know, including people, non-catholics, not even christians, jewish people, everybody i hang out with loves francis because he's a lover of people. anyway, thank you so much, everybody's got to catch this, richard's interview sunday night with steve bannon here on msnbc, 9:00 eastern. you got to watch this one. up next, the u.s. treasury department missing that deadline to turn over donald trump's taxes sets the stage for a huge constitutional battle l that could go all the way to the supreme court. look out steve mnuchin, he may have to take the hit for the president. what's he hiding, the president, and can democrats prove they have legitimate reasons? they already have one.

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welcome back to "hardball", monday is the deadline for americans to file tax returns to the irs, and that includes president trump whose tax returns have been in high demand. last week, house ways and means chair richard neil issued a formerly request for the irs to hand over six years of the president's personal and business tax returns but the president continues to be adamant in his refusal to release them. >> hey, i'm under audit. but that's up to whoever it is. from what i understand, the law is 100% on my side. >> i'm under audit, when you're under audit you don't do it. while i'm under audit, i would not give my taxes. there's no whatsoever. >> the decision is not up to the

president, it falls on the treasury department. the u.s. tax code makes clear that upon written request the secretary of the treasury shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request. the problem now is the treasury secretary, steve mnuchin missed the deadline to hand over them saying he needs more time because of the nature of the request. he wrote the committee's request raises serious issues concerning the constitutional scope of congressional investigative authority. the legitimacy of the asserts legislative purpose and the constitutional rights of american citizens. well, the legal implications of this request could affect protections for all americans against politically motivated disclosures of personal tax information regardless of which party is in power. blah blah blah. but the house may ultimately see those returns. it turns out another part of the tax code could result in severe consequences for mr. mnuchin if he didn't comply with the law. i'll tell you about that in a minute.

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you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase sensimist relieves all your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. and all from a gentle mist you can barely feel. flonase sensimist. welcome back to "hardball" amid that looming fight over president trump's tax returns, treasury secretary steve mnuchin could find himself caught in a more perilous situation. according to daily beast columnist, if mnuchin fails to hand over the president's tax returns they could find themselves in violation of a section of the u.s. tax code that could be punishable by five years in prison.

section 7214 states, any officer or employee of the united states acting in connection with any revenue law of the united states who with intent to defeat the application of any provision of this title fails to perform any of the duties of his office or employment shall be dismissed from office or discharged from employment and upon conviction thereof shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years or both. joining me right now is columnist, david k. johnson author of the making of donald trump, and former federal prosecutor, paul butler. does the government know about this law you found, david, that you can go to jail or prison for up to five if you don't obey this rule that says answer the demand of the house ways and means committee, turn over the tax returns? >> they know about it, chris, i have actually taught this to my law students at syracuse university, but frankly i had forgotten about it until one of my regular tax sources suggested i go back and take a look at it.

it's a very comprehensive law. you can get in trouble for not acting as well as acting, and so, you know, you got to worry about your future career when you leave the government futur leave the government. what would happen to you if you go break the law for donald trump. >> well, that's my question when i watch people like bill barr, the a.g. and look at mnuchin. these are top cabinet officials. i think they're on closed circuit television. the only person watching is trump, and they talk for him. but at some point they've got to deal with the constitution, don't they and when would that come. >> i think it's clear now the trump play book for dealing with new democratic congress is to run out the clock. the clock is the 2020 election. and what the trump team does now is delay delay delay. they're totally wrong on the law. trump has to hand over his tax returns. but if he refuses, it goes to court, to the federal courts which could be months and months

if not years of delay. >> when mnuchin says i'm obeying the law he's not saying i'm complying with the requests. >> he's not obeying the law. so the law is very clear. the law is that if the chair of the house ways and means committee or the chair of the senate finance committee requests tax records of any citizen, they must be turned over. there has never been a situation in which those referenced have not been turned over. so trump is getting special treatment. again, it's good to be the king. this is not the rule of law. >> david, tell us what you can based upon you're having seen one of trump's tax returns, i think it was 2005. what is he most sensitive to? fellow billionaires or millionaires. what does he want to keep secret? >> chris, there isn't now or

hasn't been verifiable evidence he's a millionaire. he's not a billionaire. let's not forget donald was tried twice for civil tax fraud and was found in both cases to have engaged in fraud. he was excoriated by judge said in both cases. his own tax lawyer testified against him. his tax lawyer said that's my signature on the tax return but i did not prepare that tax return. that's a very strong badge of fraud. and you notice his sister, as soon as she came under investigation by judiciary officials as a tax chief resigned. now, if you embezzle money from msnbc, chris, and resign that won't save you from law enforcement. but federal judges have rigged the system for themselves. just resign and you can walk away and your dirty laundry will

never be exposed. >> do they have enough delays from now to the end of december 20? >> it's possible. a judge could be asked to expedite the case if it goes that far. but the judge could consider this an emergency. so if this is political tactic by trump to delay the release of his tax returns until after the election he might prevail. there's precedent here. president nixon also refused to let congress see his tax returns. what did they find? they found the irs had been giving him a break. >> from the presidential papers. >> there's a treasure-trove of information from trump's tax returns that prosecutors and congress would love to give a look at. >> the spin coming out of mnuchin is somehow it's up to the democrats. if they have any political purpose in this to expose the president's reality, they're the bad guys. the law is clear. it doesn't say the law has to be fair.

it just says the treasury department shall release the tax returns to the chair of the ways and means committee. why does the press keep talking about political purposes here. they're irrelevant. >> well, chris, part of the problem with journalism in america is that most reporters simply accurately quote whatever they're told and then go and get the official criticisms of that and they don't read the laws. they don't reach out to people to say what's really going on here and step back. and donald is the master of how to take the conventions of journalism and use them for his benefit. >> well said. he pollutes it that way. thank you for your expertise. as always, paul butler, expertise on the law and constitution. up next joe biden's long road from long shot senate candidate in 1972, the democratic fru democratic front-runner for president right now. -runner for president right now.

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in the summer of 1972 i went in with some others on a beach house in rehoboth peabeach, delaware. i would look up at a billboard for a hot democrat running for the u.s. senate. the eager beaver you run when you know the incumbent can't be

beaten. there was no way that guy up on that billboard was going to be a u.s. senator. and then that fall while i was at utah working for a friend running for congress i got word from our pollster that something was abrew in the state of delaware. this young guy joe biden might just pull it off. the tip turned to be on the mark. biden blew the doors off that election night defeating a two term elected senator and before served as governor for and before that was a mayor for the state. how could he not think he was going to be president someday? all of which is necessary information right now about joe biden, the man who no sooner had he beaten the all out odds to begin a stellar national career suffered horrific tragedy, the loss of his young wife and daughter in an automobile

accident that almost destroyed his soul. well, none of this is past history of the man wanting to make one final run of presidential history that's who joe biden is. tonight on all in. >> can't act like a military would act because if they got a little rough everybody would go crazy. >> what happens when our pundit president can't solve actual problems. >> i don't mind closing the border. >> the new reporting on a white house plan to drop immigrants into sanctuary cities to get back at democrats, the plans to build military camps for migrants and the president offered to pardon border officials who break federal law. >> who the hell can live like this? >> plus? >> no one ever told me being in part of the government would be being second guessed by