teeth the french revolution, when few people or structures in the immediate neighborhood did. i'm going to put your formidable intellect and memory on front and center, and ask you, what are the icons inside notre dame that are the most notable that you are worried about the most? >> well, as our friend, liz lev, said in the previous hour, brian, there is a pious tradition that notre dame includes a relic of the crown of thorns from the passion of jesus christ. were that to be lost in holy week, of all weeks, that would be a devastating loss to the christian world.

i think it's the glass, though, that most of us will be thinking about. i remember as bishop barron was saying, just being in that building and letting that color wash over you, and it's transporting. it's the same at charts. it's the same at bouveaux. this is an antechamber, if you will, to another world. these cathedrals were built at a time there was a great millenialist expectation of the return of christ and glory, and people wanted to build nice reception halls, if you will, for the returning lord of history. so they put the best that was in them into that, and i also thought earlier today of why is it that kenneth clarke, and what i think is arguably the greatest television documentary series

ever, "civilization," begins at notre dame. the first visual image in those ten hours of programs is kenneth clarke's standing where those firefighters are today, with notre dame behind him saying, i'm not sure how to define civilization, but i know i'm looking at it. so what notre dame represents is not simply a repository for christian relics, not simply magnificent art, stunning engineering from an age that didn't have the steam engine, how did they build these things. it represents the roots of the west, so we're really being shaken to the foundations here, and that is a cause for reflection upon just what those roots are. >> what a coda to the coverage

we've been witnessing, george weigel, our thanks as always. please remain available, and counsel to our coverage as day turns into night here on the east coast, and we're honored to be joined on the telephone by ambassador gerard areault french ambassador to the united states. perhaps you have been listening to our coverage. what would you like to add as a frenchman, as the world joins you in sadness? >> you know, i've been passing by notre dame for years. i was looking at it, and at the time, i didn't think that i would be so emotional looking at the fire, looking at this destruction and suddenly i realized, and i didn't know it, that actually it's 1,000 years of our history. it's really a part of our national identity, which is burning. and i was surprised to cry in

front of the tv set. >> of course, it's not just the structure. it's the history. it's the icons inside. it's the artwork. it is so essential to the city of paris, and the nation of france. >> of course, yes. i think, i hope, i heard that the holy crown of thorns and the other relics are being saved. i'm not 100% sure, but i heard a priest actually saying that. so to answer to your colleague in rome, at least, you know, this part of the church, which is of course, a very important one, has been preserved, but i fear, like the way he did, i fear that the glasses, which were amazing, i fear that the glasses have not resisted the extreme heat. >> yes, i just don't know how

they could have withstood the flames and the heat. we continue to watch the paris firefighters pour millions of gallons of water on this fire. we're told that apparently one of the chiefs in paris believes they will be able to save the larger structure, and that would be great news. >> exactly. you know really, what i understood was that right now is, in a sense, the moment of truth, whether they can starve the fire and prevent the fire from destroying all the structure, and especially what will be very dangerous is the problem of the bells. as you can guess, the bells are extremely heavy, and if the fire was coming to the bells, it could really entail the collapse of the towers of the two towers. so that really is the moment when we are going to know

whether we can save the structure. >> i can't thank you enough. i realize this is an emotional and sad time for you, and your countrymen and women, and i can't thank you enough, ambassador gerard araud for joining us and being part of our live coverage. we wish you nothing but the best. >> thank you very much, thank you. >> a sad night for people in paris, people in france, people around the world. chris matthews of "hardball" is with us from our washington bureau. chris, what sadness. >> you know, brian, i was thinking of someone who was in our business, back in 1938, when the hindenburg crashed and herb morrison oh the humanity, watching all of those people die in front of him, when the great airship blew up in front of him. it wasn't humanity today, it was history, the civilization lost

today, a millennium of civilizati civilizations. us roman catholics you went to paris it was what you saw seeing the notre dame cathedral, this is the true church, the universal church. if you studied art at all in school, everybody took a little bit of art history that was the great gothic cathedral with the flying buttresses and a symbol of everything people learned. i love the way that george weigel talked about kenneth clarke saying this is civilization. what a statement about one building, it's civilization itself, and i was just struck by, you know, hitler, when he was winning world war ii, starting in '40, going into france after going through the low countries cut a deal with the french government and said i'll spare paris if you desert it and give it ome. to spare the architecture and beauty of the city the french people gave it up. of course in 1944, the german general choltix was ordered

personally by hitler to blow up the city during the nazi retreat, and he didn't do it. he cut a deal with the mayor of paris and with the resistance people and risked his life and said no, i'm not blowing up this city. i'm saving paris. and when hitler said is paris burning, the answer was no, so i think there's been so much history from the hunchback of notre dame with charles lawton and maureen o'hara, all the images of our life of this one place, and now i think something will be left. i love what you just reported, that the towers will survive, because when you're luck any of enough to take a retirement retreat up la siene there will at least be the towers and i think that's wonderful they're surviving. >> we have to join all good people hoping we're right about the towers, the ambassador is correct. the bells are so heavy and of course, what are they suspended by? wood timbers.

the spire was 100% oak, and we have to hope that the sporadic spot fires we have seen burning in those towers, where paris fire department has been on the spot about trying to get up there and put them down, but still, we have to hope those towers are intact. >> it's certainly what i hope. the french have given us so much. lafayette, of course the french navy that won the battle of yorktown for us, the battle that won the war really, they gave us the statue of liberty, gave us the symbol of refuge and hope in the world, gave it to us and their greatest icon is there fighting for survival as we watch. >> chris matthews in washington, sometimes we are united by something so universally sad. it is, as chris mentions, for catholics, holy week, of all the times of the year, all the times

on the calendar, there we have it. that is skyline of paris, france. you see obviously the streets closed and surrendered to only first responders. every piece of fire apparatus for 50 miles around has responded to the city of paris to fight this fire, and yet, and still, look at the powerful flames still burning, an incredible source of fuel surrounded on four sides by stone. there you see one of the spot fires at the base of the tower. this was earlier, just at the break of dusk, but there's been an incredible supply of old timbers inside. remember that all of the superstructure of the roof came in, came down, as i said

earlier, it is somewhat perverse that what survives in the center of that structure is the scaffolding that was put up to work on the spire construction project. it's been a massive construction project, as this cathedral has required over the years, and they've had some trouble getting funding in recent years. madeleine o'day is an eyewitness who is standing by to talk to us. madeleine, tell us how long you've been there and what you've seen. >> i've been here about four hours. we heard, i live just near notre dame, and we heard that something was happening, so my husband and i came out, and were just appalled by the sight we saw around 7:00 p.m. we saw the spire completely ablaze, flaming like a roman

candle, and then saw it collapse, this incredible oak structure that for these last months they've been working on restoring, and it just collapsed in the most terrible way, and then the roof, of course, caught fire as well, and now for the last four hours, the interior of the cathedral has been burning, and we've watched as night has at, still looking, it's impossible not to stay and bear witness, and there are thousands of people along the sienne like us, looking, unable to stop looking. it's the most terrible sight, in that sense it's still not under control and we still can't be sure they're going to save the building. it's terrible. a terrible thing. >> madeleine, that was my next question. has life just come to a halt in paris tonight? >> oh, yes, absolutely. i mean, it was quite astounding

when we first came out, there were lots of people, probably a hundred or so people but as the night has continued, the evening has drawn in, people are just coming from all directions. a lot of the metro stations have been stopped, people are walking in, they're coming in on bicycles and people are just flocking to any vantage point to look. i'm on the right bank standing on the pons louis philippe. as far as i can see there are people hanging over the bridge and the balistrades along the siene looking and i have to say right here, there is a certain amount of hope, because an hour or so ago there was a lot of flame seen in the towers and it seems to be pretty much stamped down but at the same time obviously and you've probably seen better pictures of this than we are over here, you can

see that the main structure is burning brightly, still a terrible orange glow on horizon. >> we have good news in picture form and in terms of some news i just got from paris. number one, looking at paris firefighters on top of the belfry. >> we can see them here, yes. >> that wouldn't be the case if it were deemed unsafe or close to collapse, so we have that. >> of course, yes. >> and we also have this from the associated press, paris police chief, structure of notre dame cathedral has been saved. fire stopped from spreading to the northern belfry. so i hope he's right. >> yes. >> and i hope that stays the case. >> yes. because we've been looking at it, we're on the right bank, looking at the destruction of the north window, which is a terrible moment, when we realized that of course the glass was gone, and we've been looking at the towers,

obviously, the north is closest to us and we've been seeing the fire there and it's not there anymore, and of course there was great fear for the bells if they fell and if they fell the structure might come down. it seems the stone structure is holding. it's an extraordinary, i know people use the word tragedy too lightly but it is an incredible tragedy and you really feel it. you feel it here on the street and you feel it amongst people, you know, the people who are here. it's incredibly diverse group, young and old, different ethnicities. many, many, many parisians and this is not just a tragedy for catholics or parisians. it's for all of france and i think for the world. that's the feeling i have, watching it, and looking at these people around me. people are just dumb-struck. it's a terrible, terrible tight. and still the flames, we can

still see them. >> i was just going to say, the only illumination must be the orange glow from that. >> it is, it was a strange -- it's a terrible, now it's just kind of a dull glow in one part of the building and you can see the tons of water being put on it. you can actually see the watter across the flames. earlier in the evening, as sun was setting, it was an unearthly sight because of whole of notre dame was glowing orange from the sunset, but it was all from the fire. that subsided now and it's just this one kind of the heart of the building is aflame. the rest is now just bathed in the light i think of the, probably the emergency services have got lights on the building to help them work. so it's a kind of ghostly glow, on most of the building, this orange heart of flame that's still going, and of course the

smoke just billowing into the air and of course, we can smell it very strongly across the river. >> it's just terrible. and obviously the loss is felt, most perhaps by catholics on holy week, but this, this is a cathedral that belonged to the ages, and think about the history in the terms of statues, the paintings on the wall, the ceiling, the little alcoves were all of a different theme. >> yes. yes. i mean, everyone who has ever been there knows that, and the interior, i went with my husband last week. we went to mass there, not because we're catholics but just because we're living in the neighborhood, we wanted to experience the cathedral at its work and it was so striking just an ordinary mass in holy week, it was full of the catholics, but again all ages, all

ethnicities and a sense of a living cathedral. it's just beloved, and of course, there were tourists as well, they're all standing reverently. it's an extraordinary space, and you look up to the incredible stained glass windows and they are such beauty and wonder, and such a monument to generations, and the thought of all that destroyed is terrible. >> it truly is. >> just the thought that this 850, 1,000 years old almost, that the stone structure is holding, is also something -- people are applauding, yes, right now you hear the applause over the phone line, one of the fire trucks has just come across the bridge, they're leaving, having completed their part of the work and people just

spontaneously burst into applause, and parisians are not given to applauding their first responders or these kind of authorities, and it's kind of an expressi think of how much people feel about it that it's something they can feel good about, seeing these people do this work. so it's kind of a moving moment. i think the news is getting through the crowd now that the structure may be saved also, the news you just gave me i think is coming through the crowd, i get that feeling people are changing some relief. this is a great moment, because it's been feeling like it's been in the balance now for hours. >> our great thanks to madeleine o'day. if you've been watching our coverage, you heard her several times over the past several hours. we are very happy that this australian living in paris has made herself available to us today and tonight, madeleine, thank you. we're joined by doug stern with the international association of firefighters here in the states.

he had two-plus decades experience on the job in cincinnati, ohio. what occurs to you while watching this? we've tried our darnedest to describe this to viewers what the loss of a wooden roof and those joists can mean for the stone walls that are still standing. >> i think, brian, the first thing to really recognize is what your last guest said. those parisian firefighters did a tremendous job keeping that fire from spreading to the two towers. the first thing they would have done is look at the building and figure out what could be saved and unfortunately what couldn't and i think the decision they made saved the two towers, saved and kept that fire from spreading over there and making a truly terrible situation much, much worse. >> and the business of fire fighting, you often have to make some hard, hard decisions. what would seem to civilians to be hard-hearted and what you're talking about is often the fact

that you have to think one move ahead of where the fire is. sometimes that means making a devastating trenchcot in someone's roof to save what remains of the structure. sometimes that means taking water off the immediate firefight and dousing what could become the next exposure, and what you're saying is there's all evidence that's what happened here. >> not knowing exactly what happened, that's what i would assume had happened there, that when you're watching the news earlier today, the fire was raging out of control. even though those fire hoses are putting out water at 1500 gallons per minute, a fire of that volume, they're not going to do a lot to knock it down quick enough to stop the fire from spreading. so what they'll do is, they'll move ahead of the fire, go to where they believe the fire is going to go next, start putting the water there to keep the fire from spreading into that additional structure. >> a friend of mine who is a suburban fire chief said to me

today that the only way to put a fire like this out is prevention and immediate suppression, and i don't imagine retrofitting notre dame with a sprinkler and fire suppression system has been possible over these past couple hundred years. >> no, i don't imagine that was something they were going to be able to do, and you know, just in the size of the building and where that fire looks like it probably started up in the roof, trying to get any kind of fire suppression there in a quick manner was going to be an impossible task at best. those firefighters really did a great job getting there as quickly as they did, containing the fire where it was. it's unfortunate the roof was lost, and that the spire fell, but you know, keeping the structure intact, as it is, is really probably the best scenario that could have happened from a fire fighting standpoint. it was so great to hear you say the paris police chief said the structure will be saved.

because as you alluded to earlier, the only thing holding walls together sometimes are those heavy timber pieces that have burned out of the cathedral now. so the fact they think they're going to save the actual structure and the walls of it is really good news. >> as you're aware, a lot of folks are going to monday morning quarterback this, because the world has been helplessly watching hours of pictures, of at first an unfought, out-of-control fire as paris fd was scrambling to set up supply lines, set up drafting from the river seine, on and on. people want to know why aren't there any aerials. our president is tweeting why can't they do a water drop from the air, so that gives you some idea of how much discussion this is going to spark. >> i think it's going to be talked about in living rooms all across the world tonight, as to

what the firefighters did, but i think it's important to know, that spire was 300 feet aboveground. the largest aerial truck is likely 100 feet at its maximum reach so it's only going to get a third of the way up there to begin with. fire trucks aren't built for this kind of fire. this is one of those things you hope prevention stops, quite honestly and when it does happen, unfortunately, the firefighters do their best, as they did here in paris, to keep that fire from going from a terrible situation to a complete catastrophe. >> also, we should mention an air drop the likes of which we're used to seeing in wildfire fighting on the west coast, if the roof hadn't collapsed before it, the weight of that water or retardant, correct me if i'm wrong, is likely to collapse an old partially collapsed roof anyway. >> i think any kind of air drop would have collapsed the building but more than that, it's not a precise drop that you can drop it on a city block.

it's something they do in the wildfire ahead of the fire just like the firefighters were doing with their hose lines ahead of the towers. they dropped those in the wildfires to keep the fire from spreading farther. >> thank you very much for joining our coverage and for referencing the debate and discussion that's going to be going on in so many american homes, so many homes around the world, after this slow motion tragedy we've been witnessing in paris today. another break for our live coverage. we'll continue right after this. ♪ woman 1: this is my body of proof.

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♪ i'm told it's a familiar sight on the streets of paris tonight, folks gathering, some of them singing hymns and folk songs. laura heim is with us, a veteran

french journalist, someone who has been with us for coverage of some of the news events. we have covered too many of them, the charlie abdo killings, the bataclan nightclub killings. she worked as a spokesman for emmanuel macron's campaign and by the way, we are waiting for macron to give a statement. we are standing by with translation. we'll try to bring that to you live. laura, we've been striving for ways to explain the meaning of this building to the french, and to paritisians. >> you know, brian, tonight in france, a lot of french people are saying this church was built in the 12th and 13th century, this survived revolution, this cathedral survived the two world

wars. this cathedral survived pollution and now this cathedral is on fire. people are extremely moved. you can see that in the streets of paris. people are -- to make sure their kids are watching what's happening. all the political people are screaming for unity. this is a very, very big moment in this country, this moment, nobody know's what's going to happen next and everyone is expecting for president macron to speak. >> what can he say, at a moment like this, other than try to reference the sadness going on all around him? >> this is a very special moment for the president, because he's in the middle of a very

important -- the president was supposed to speak tonight on national television to announce reform and it was massive breaking news in france, the president was supposed to announce he wants to reform france. of course, with the fire, he has to cancel -- and everybody is working for this to see how france is expected to -- what's happening. again, brian, you have the feeling of the french people, it's -- the fire of notre dame in paris. >> laura haim, our thanks to you

for joining us. seems too frequently when the news is bad, we have turned to you to describe and explain what we're unable to see on television. retired four-star u.s. army general barry mccaffrey, our military analyst normally, is with us by telephone. barry, tell us your history with this structure. >> brian, i lived in europe for ten years, three and a half years in paris. probably the most beautiful city on the face of the earth and the heart of soul and paris has always been notre dame and to see this absolutely spectacular piece of history and architecture in flames is just a crushing blow. >> this speaks to, this was a possession of the world, really. >> well, no question. i mean, the artwork alone, and we're going to keep our fingers

crossed, because of these incredibly courageous french firefighters and the security services, apparently the main structure may have been saved and perhaps much of the artwork, but having said that, the artwork alone was just iconic in its value and the gothic architecture with the flamed buttresses was something that many of your commentators have noted, millions and millions of people came to the most visited spot in europe to see this famous cathedral. this is a huge blow to the catholic community worldwide, just with easter coming on sunday and never mind the cultural impact of this tragic fire. >> general, thank you. and thank you for adding your voice and your personal history to this staggering loss we're covering here. as our viewers can see, on the left-hand side, this is a live

news conference. we keep hearing reports that some of the icons and art were grabbed and saved. i am guessing it is this gentleman's congregation. i believe we have simultaneous translation, and now president macron. >> -- >> translator: -- entire world, thank you to everyone. >> translator: hello, hello, everyone. what happened this evening in paris in this cathedral of notre dame is a terrible tragedy, and before anything, i would like to have a thought for and thanks for the firemen of paris. 500 of them have been fighting the flames for hours now and will continue to do so for hours and hours, and no doubt for the days to come. they are doing this showing extreme courage and dedication,

professionalism, and extremely strong attitude on the part of the head of the fire department, and i would like to thank them on behalf of the entire nation. in the last hours, thanks to their dedication and the dedication of all the instruments of state, municipality of paris, the personnel of notre dame, the worst has been avoided, even if the battle has not yet been completely won. the coming hours will be difficult ones, but thanks to their courage, the facade and the two bell towers have not collapsed. tonight, of course, i would like to send my thoughts to catholics of the world, but of course, of france, during this holy week of easter, i understand what they're feeling, and we are insolidarity with them. i would also like to, i have a

message for all parisians, notre dame of paris is their cathedral and much more, the mayor of paris has been with us throughout, from the very first flames, and i understand what she's feeling as well as the inhabitants of the city. i also have a message for all citizens, because notre dame of paris is our history, our literature, our imagination, the place where our big historical moments, plagues, wars, liberation, it is at the very heart of our lives. it is from there that we count the distance to all the other, all other places. it is the milestone. it is paris. it is painting. it is a cathedral which is a cathedral of all french

citizens, and even those who have never come to visit, it is our common history. and it is burning. it is burning and i understand the sadness, this inner turmoil felt by so many of our citizens, and tonight, i would like to give a message of hope to everyo everyone. hope is the pride that we must have. pride, pride of, for all those who fought so that the worst may not befall us. these soldiers against fire, soldiers' pride in this cathedral, over 800 years ago we were able to erect this cathedral and over the centuries we have improved it. we have made it grow, so with

pride, i tell you tonight that we will rebuild this cathedral, all together, and it is part of the fate, the destiny of france, and our common project over the coming years, and i am committed to it. as of tomorrow, a national subscription will be launched that will go beyond our borders. we will call on the greatest talent, and there are many who will come and contribute, and we will rebuild. we will rebuild at notre dame, because it is what the french expect of us. it's what our history deserves, because it is in the deepest sense our destiny. thank you. >> the french president on what is a tragedy for france, and the city of paris, of course, but we also have to remember is hoy

holy site during holy week for catholics. a huge challenge now for macron. remember, he was to speak tonig tonight, kind of the culmination speech as part of this national conversation he has ordered. you may have picked up in the news media the protests of the yellow vests. it's a complex matter. it has been an intense local story involving great interest and violence, and a factor in it was gas prices in paris. we have seen violence in the streets. he has been dealing with all of that. his reputation has taken a hit, and now this. it was announced earlier this evening he would not be addre addressing the french public. sanam an shantiya is with france

24. fill in the blanks and information you think american viewers might want to know. >> absolutely. i think based on the address that we just heard from the french president, the repetition of the word "solidarity and hope" very important, given the content of where the countries are at the moment, having faced troubles over the past few months, you mentioned the yellow vest moment and the spate of terror attacks, macron calling for the greatest talent to rebuild notre dame, this iconic structure in the country. now, if i want to give you a recap of the day, i was actually at notre dame earlier this evening. we had reports of the fire starting at around 7:00 p.m. paris time, at the beginning of the easter holy week. it started after the closing of the cathedral, so no one was

seriously injured, minus a firefighter. now, since the entire roof and actually the very iconic spire on the cathedral have collapsed, the fire also unfortunately spread to one of the two famous rectangular towers. moments ago we heard from officials that the structure has been saved from "total destruction." now, the area itself as we speak continues to be engulfed in smoke, but the fire has somewhat calmed. firemen earlier actually evacuated the entire area surrounding the notre dame. they also explained the reason why they weren't using flying tankers, as advised by u.s. president donald trump, saying they were concerned the pressure of the water would damage the remaining structure. certainly what's left of it. in terms of what remains inside notre dame, i've just had reports that many of the works

of art and valuables have been salvaged. something else that really stood out this evening to me was parisians, some very angry, calling for the army to come on site, others gathering at the scene, watching helplessly, some shedding a tear. other singing "ave maria" which is exceptional in a country known to are secular, for this structure, this cathedral not just culture religious but architectural. we're talking about some 850 years of history. this is a cathedral that survived two world conflicts, a revolution, and here it is today burning before our eyes. >> sanam shantaei a senior with france 24 thank you very much. to our viewers here in the states, while sanam was talking, you perhaps saw some of the new high resolution video that has

just come in. we've been repeating many of the pictures we've had thus far, but in painstaking close-up detail we have watched this fire progressed, and this is the first view we've had of at least one of the stained glass windows having burnt out with flame coming out the front. you see, as all of the lumber, the lathe just falls like match sticks. this is wood, some of it that has been there since the 12th, 1300s, and it just was, of course, no match for the approaching fire. there is the center of the now former stained glass window, and our theory was correct, that the flame, smoke and scorch marks were because it had active flame in the center. the spire made of oak, was just

dry as a tinder, as pieces of lumber fell off before the collapse of the structure itself. another break in our live coverage of the destruction of the cathedral of notre dame, in paris. oh! oh! oh! ♪ ozempic®! ♪ (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than seven and maintained it. oh! under seven?

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5:46 p.m. on the east coast and these are the pictures that may end up standing for this day. this horrible day for lovers of history everywhere, for catholics around the globe on holy week. the cathedral of notre dame in paris, it appears that, after the destruction, you see the fire ripping through what used to be the roof, has now completely collapsed. it appears that what stands are elements of the stone walls and the two north and south towers on the right of your screen.

it appears the paris firefighters have salvaged at least that, and that will give the people of paris and the roman catholic church some hope, solace, a place to start as from the french president on down, there are vows tonight that they will rebuild this holy place into its at least something approaching its former glory. chris dickey is a veteran journalist we've turned to on european stories of great import. he has lived in paris for many years, and has covered all the news there that we have called upon him. he is world news editor for "the daily beast" and msnbc contributor. chris, as an american, perhaps to an american audience, sum up the meaning and just the looming presence of this building for

all of us who have been lucky enough to visit that city. >> well, i think you have to remember, brian, that paris is not just a city. it's an idea in the minds of people all over the world, from beijing to new york to san francisco, to latin america, anywhere you could possibly go, paris is an idea and notre dame cathedral is at the heart of that idea. so this is a global phenomenon. i think we've heard a lot today about how much this means to the french and to french history. it means a tremendous amount to world history, and to the emotions of the world, people who never would get to go to paris dreamed of visiting notre dame, so the idea that this has been destroyed in this horrific conflagration that seems to have been started by an accident, we're not sure still what the cause was, is just beyond belief, and even if there was no intentional effort to start this fire, to start this tragedy, i

think that certainly in america, people watching this destruction of an enormous icon, it's hard for them not to feel some echo of 9/11, that moment when something that you thought was unchangeable, immutable, permanent, is suddenly so i think it is really a global phenomenon and not just a french phenomenon. i think we all feel it. it is absolutely heartbreak. >> two points for what you just said. firefighters everywhere had the same thought when we first saw the pictures. when we saw the flame licking up through the roof, our hearts sank when we all saw the scaffolding, because it just increases the chance of an accident, a fire-causing accident exponentially when there is construction under way. and to your second point, it's when we heard the sound of applause over the telephone during one of our live reports on this coverage, that did

remind us of 9/11, the applause spontaneously on the new york city streets when first responders were getting through traffic. and christopher, your main point is so well taken. this is a holy place. this is a holy site for pilgrims, for catholics, for people of religion around the world, in addition to be so many other things. architectural ly beyond an icon. >> absolutely. i think one of the things that a lot of people don't realize is that in the early 19th century, it was effectively derelict after the french revolution. and a brilliant architect took it in hand with help from people like victor hugo and others and started rebuilding it, remaking it. he did that with many gothic cathedrals and institutions around france.

the near nearby is part of his restoration. it was a combination of ancient gothic and neo gothic. and it became the image of paris in the minds of many, many people. who goes to paris and doesn't see notre dame, at least from the outside? and i can tell you, having done it a few times, that if you climb to the top of those two great towers, you see paris in a way that you see it from no other place in the city. so it, you know, what can i say, how many times can i say it's heartbreaking? it's just a devastating loss, for the time being. but macron's right. the former mayor of paris, the current mayor, everybody is saying it will be rebuilt, and it will be rebuilt. the walls are still standing. those great flying buttresses are still there, those enormous stonewalls are still there, built over centuries. the roof was destroyed because,

among other things, le duc decided he wouldn't use any iron. he would use the ancient materials that it was originally built with. but it will be revived. it will be restored, just as, for instance, the cathedral in cologne, germany was destroyed after it was bombed flat during world war ii. people rebuild such monuments. and in a generation, many people will think it's always been that way, which is a god thing. >> that's a great point. and we must take care to -- when rebuilding, and in the speed of rebuilding to make sure that future generations look back and thanks the folks that were in charge of coming back from this disaster. chris dickey, thank you so much. you're always there for us when the news involves paris, france. ken mcclaire joins us next, ca he was across the street at a cafe when the fire started. and ken, let's begin.

with you confirm that this started at the base of the spire near the scaffolding? >> yes, it did, brian. it was to the back of what would be the back of the building. so you have the two square towers to the front and the spire sort of dead center to the back. we noticed a little bit of smoke at first. didn't think too much of it. my wife was a little concerned. but then about -- literally, we looked at our photos and checked the time stamp. it was at 6:55 that we noticed the first little bit of smoke. and my next picture at 7:06, it is billowing smoke. and several minutes later slowly you started to see flame. and it basically made its way up that spire, ultimately bringing that down, but then also came across the roof, so from back to front. and it looked like they stopped,

it stopped when it ran out of roof. it got to the stone towers in the front. >> back home in the states you see smoke, you usually hear sirens right away. was that the case? >> it was not as quickly as we thought it should have been. but then again, we were literally at a cafe a couple of hundred yards away from the corner of the building. so we literally turned our cheek. we had our chairs facing it the whole time we were there. we visited only about 45 minutes, maybe an hour earlier. a beautiful sunny day here. we saw a table available so we said let's sit and take a break. so we sat and were staring at it and then noticed the smoke. and it took a little while. it seemed to take a long time before there was water that got to the building. but it was very, very quick ly engulfed in very serious flames. i can't -- i obviously can't

comment, you know, whether there the response by any measure. but it didn't take much. literally a speck of smoke at 6:55 and at 7:06, it was gone. >> thank you so much for joining us and explaining this to us, especially a u.s. audience. ken mcclare who you heard referenced was watching when this happened. and let's go ahead and point out there isn't a single piece of apparatus or piece of equipment on a ladder truck in the world that could have gotten the angle for an early attack to have put this down beyond what has happened there. our live coverage is going continuous as we crown the top of the hour. ari melber will be with you for tonight's broadcast of "the beat" right after this break. when you rent from national... it's kind of like playing your own version of best ball. because here, you can choose any car in the aisle,

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♪ good evening, and if you've been watching our special coverage, i want to tell you at start of our broadcast of "the beat" tonight, we will continue to follow this heartbreaking story of the fire in notre dame cathedral in paris, and we'll bring you updates as warranted. turning now tonight to washington, trump attorney general bill barr has for the first time named a day he will release his redacted mueller report. that day is thursday, and we're told that in an announcement today. it comes after barr testified he was on pace to release the mueller report this week. and today the justice department

says they have this pl