democratic, and if we're going to be helping the 1 in 5 children in wherk wamerica who sleep hungry at night and win the war on poverty in our country, we have to win. >> there you see it, the speaker making it clear she thinks aoc is wonderful but also wants to have this nuanced conversation. it's one we'll be following and try to cover it with all the nuance it requires. thanks for watching "the beat." "hardball" starts now. church and state. this is "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews from washington. right now you're looking at live pictures from notre dame cathedral in paris. the edifice that survived nine centuries, world war, the nazi occupation has been saved from the brink of total destruction tonight after a massive fire that began before 7:00 p.m. paris time and raged well into the night.

it's a devastating blow to an icon of western civilization and a monument to religious faith for a millennium. it's a tragedy without yet a victim, however, but one no one living today with forget. according to authorities, the fire may have been accidentally sparked by a renovation project in the spire of the landmark 12th century cathedral. flames and smoke billowed into the sky between its two iconic towers as the fire engulfed the roof. we're watching it there. after more than an hour, the flames overtook the soaring spire, bringing it crashing down. the french defense agency said dumping water on the building was not an option early on because it could cause the whole building to collapse. french president emmanuel macron rushed to the scene and addressed the situation on twitter writing in glitch, notre dame is aflame. great emotion for the whole nation. our thoughts go out to all catholics and the french people. like all my fellow citizens, i

am sad to see this part of us burn tonight. as the fire raged into the night, only one firefighter was reported injured. in kro macron praised the firefighters for saving the main towers and pledged the cathedral will be rebuilt. >> i have a message for all parisians. notre dame of paris is their cathedral and much more. i also have a message for all citizens. because notre dame of paris is our history, our literature, our imagination. the place where our big historical moments, plagues, wars, liberation. it is at the very heart of our lives. over 800 years ago, we were able to erect this cathedral, and over the centuries we have improved it. we have made it grow. so with pride i tell you tonight

that we will rebuild this cathedral all together. >> i'm joined for more from paris by nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. jean-pierre, u.s. correspondent for french broadcaster bfm and joining me on the phone is bishop richard barren of the archdiocese of los angeles. do we know anything about the cause yet and what will be saved? >> reporter: not much about the causes, although the widespread speculation here is that it was caused by some of the renovation. for about a year, renovation works had been under way to try to reinforce the spire. officials believe that is where the fire started. among the scaffolding by the fire. then it spread to the roof. ultimately, the spire collapsed. also, the roof has been destroyed. there have been some pictures that have emerged from inside. it is not totally catastrophic. some of the rose windows are still there, for example. some of the artwork and the treasury has been saved.

the organ, we are also told, has been saved. this structure, french officials say, of notre dame is -- has been saved. it is still structurally sound, as far as they know. but they have not been inside, they have not done all of the inspections necessary. while we've been here for the last several hours, they've been cooling off the building. they've been he'sing it down so now there is also some flooding inside. macron came out and he said this was a national emergency. he said tomorrow there will be a national fund-raising campaign starting tomorrow to raise money to rebuild this. but i can tell you here in paris tonight there are a lot of blank stares. we've been walking through the streets. people have been singing hymns as the firefighters have been going by. people have been applauding them for their sacrifice. they had quite an emotional ride today. not only did they see this cathedral, this icon of paris burning, spreading clouds of ash all across the city, then at one

stage officials said it looked like notre dame could not be saved, that they had to be prepared for the fact that the entire cathedral might be destroyed. and then just a few hours ago they said that as far as they know, the structure is sound. many of the artworks were saved. the roof and the spire, however, were not. >> thank you much, richard. let me go to jean bernard. you've been in this country a long time. you live next door to my brother-in-law and sister-in-law. tell me about the significance french, the notre dame of paris. >> listen, notre dame is the church in the middle of the village. this village of ours that we call france. we are a catholic country. we are a country where history, culture, books, architecture is very, very important, and all of this is linked with notre dame. and not only history, geography. in my country, in france, all the distances are measured to and from this point in the country that is notre dame.

it's like losing a dear member of our family. it is devastating. >> so much of the history i was thinking that charles de gaulle, when paris was liberated by the free french and the allies, he went and had mass there. >> yeah, there was a mass for the liberation. there was a mass for the attacks in 2015. there was even a mass for the president who was not catholic, but it's the center of the country well, well beyond the catholic faith. >> let me go to bishop barren. your excellency, thank you for joining us. you studied in france, so give us an american's sense of paris and this great cathedral, which has been spared, at least in its structural form. >> i was actually very happy to hear that report from richard engel that it's a little bit more optimistic than i had thought. it meant the world to me, that place. i studied in paris for three years for my doctorate. and went to notre dame pretty

much every day my first year in france. it had a kind of mesmerizing impact on me, especially the rose windows. when i heard about this fire, my first thought was the roses, the roses that go back to the 13th century. the north rose, i think the finest rose window in the world. so that's what i was most fearful. i think the south roses have been lost, from what i was able to gather, but if the north rose, at least in parts has been saved, that would be great. it meant to me a connection to europe. it meant a connection to the wider western civilization. and it meant a connection to the ancient christian church. i mean, i think of that building, knew those rose windows as the place was being constructed. b when i was there i used to give tours at notre dame for english speaking tourists. i used it as a chance to preach because i was there as a priest but i was studying full-time.

so i would use the cathedral as kind of a visual aid to talk about the christian faith. i've been using it that way for the past 30 years. so it meant the world to me. it was a connection to that great spiritual power of the catholic faith. >> thank you so much, your excellency. i want to go back to jean bernard. it seems to me -- i grew up watching the movies my dad saw when he was a kid. "hunch ba "hunchback of notre dame," the idea of this incredible place that was, like, permanent. >> yeah. we cannot believe that it could be destroyed, that it could be frail, any fragility. it is at the center of our country, of our life. we cannot believe this could be destroyed. >> well, it looks like it's going to make it. you have the greatest fund-raising in history for this church to save it. >> it could have been much worse, but we'll need a lot of help to rebuild. >> i think you'll get it from this country as well. thank you, jean bernard and

bir bishop. coming up, the big reveal. three days until the reelers of the mueller report? do you believe it. the white house is implementing a strategy of distraction. they don't want us to know it. they don't want us to pay attention to it. also, the president says he's serious about a plan to send migrant detainees in sanctuary cities. i'm going to talk to the mayor of one of those cities who says she's not intimidated by the president's apparent act of political retribution. as democrats increase the pressure on president trump to release his tax returns. bernie sanders, the enemy of millionaires and billionaires, released his. i think he's one of them now. what the numbers tell us about the democratic presidential contender who doesn't like millionaires but may have become at least technically one of them. much more ahead. stick with us. d. stick with us. honey have you seen my glasses? i've always had a knack for finding things... colon cancer, to be exact. and i find it noninvasively... no need for time off or special prep. it all starts here... you collect your sample, and cologuard uses the dna in your stool to find 92% of colon cancers.

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welcome back to "hardball." the countdown is on. nbc news is today reporting that the justice department expects to release the redacted version of the special counsel's report this thursday morning.

that's three days from now. president trump appears to know the trouble he's in. he's taking steps to obfuscate, mislead and otherwise distract from the upcoming revelation. for starters, the president and his allies continue to cite the attorney general's four-page letter to falsely claim total exoneration. that's a deliberate strategy, of course. according to "the new york times," mr. trump's plan, this is "the times" speaking, mr. trump's plane of attack, aides say, is to act as if the report itself is extraneous to mr. barr's -- in other words, mr. barr's four-page letter is, in fact, the report that matters and all the rest is something in the back of the book. when in addition trump is purposefully escalating his language expressly to liven his base of supporters and enrage his political rivals and the news media. that's "the times" reading. in doing so, the president is once again trying to flip the script on his political opponents and the fbi. trump tweeted today, "these were crimes committed by crooked hillary, the dnc, dirty cops and others. investigate the investigators."

he also said, "they spied on my campaign. we will never forget." but trump's barrage of distractions don't end with that. he's trying to define the democratic party by relentlessly attacking muslim congresswoman ilhan omar and he's threatening to flood cities like san francisco, philadelphia and seattle with illegal immigrants stopped at the border. i'm joined by democratic congressman steve cohen of tennessee who sits on the house judiciary committee and natasha bertrand, national political correspondent for politico. congressman, give me -- i know where you stand on the good side of this fight, getting the truth. what's trump up to? in all of his machinations right now. >> he knows what he's done. his whole life he's done it. it's been illegal and shady deals. he doesn't want it to come out. and that's been his m.o. forever. and he -- there -- it would be so much of the mueller report if we see the unexpurgated investigation that even his --

some of his supporters would turn against him. the deals with russia, the financing with russia is probably in there, involvement with russia. maybe not enough to indict him for conspiracy, but lots of evidence that he knew what the russians were doing, his campaign knew what the russians were doing and they didn't object. and obstruction, you know, he was not exonerated, says mueller. mueller knows more about that than barr. barr was a hit man hired to do his job. he's doing his job. it's unfortunate. this is just disrespectful. and then to put it out right before passover and east? during this big break. i mentioned on the last time i was on about the fact it was going to be put out while we are on recess. we're on recess, they use religion and holidays where people are thinking about being with loved ones to celebrate the holidays to put this out to get less attention. if christopher hitchens was around and didn't believe in hell, he would say anyone who used these holidays should go to

hell, and he'd be out. >> the congress is out. all a perfect time for him to drop this bomb. according to "the new york times," white house aides are most focused on the outstanding questions of obstruction, including, quote, why the special counsel was not able to conclude whether or not mr. trump obstructed justice. actions the president took to obstruct the investigation. as the attorney general said in his four-page letter, most of those actions have been the subject of public reporting, which means at least some will be revealed for the first time on thursday. so natasha, even bill barr, the very accommodating a.g., admits there is stuff in there that is serious about obstruction of justice that we don't know yet. >> right. he applied in his memo we have not seen it all yet. the episodes not reported on are probably going to be contained in this report. you know, i don't necessarily think that the white house is more concerned about the obstruction of justice aspect than the conspiracy or collusion aspect, just because that is something that poses a greater liability to the president.

i think that they are more concerned about it because they know that a lot of the conspiracy and collusion aspects of this investigation are probably going to be redacted because it has to deal with classified information. so there is probably very little that we're going to be able to see about the campaign's coordination with the russians. >> yeah. >> even though, you know, the campaign didn't necessarily coordinate with the russian government, but, of course, there were a lot of interactions there in 2016. but the obstruction aspect of this, the fact that they're worried about it also tells me they don't necessarily have the full confidence in bill barr's, quote, unquote, exoneration of the president. because if they did, they wouldn't be scramablibling to k of get out ahead of what the report says. they're also very worried about what don mcgahn told the special counsel over the course of a year. >> anyway, speaking about the mueller report on fox on sunday. white house press secretary sarah sanders said the special counsel intentionally let the attorney general make a decision on whether the president had obstructed justice.

>> the question is, how are you going to deal with some evidence that's going to come out in this report that clearly is going to be damaging to the president? >> i don't think it is going to be damaging to the president because the entire purpose of the investigation was whether or not there was collusion. mueller was crystal clear in the fact that there was no collusion. not -- >> but he wasn't crystal clear on obstruction. >> but any american, they couldn't find anything, they couldn't make a determination, which is basically mueller's way legally of saying we can't find anything. we're going to leave that up to the process, which is the attorney general. >> well, we'll see. i think the process was the congress as well. congressman, i want to go back to you with that point. wasn't the process that the report was really being done for the purpose of the congress to consider possible impeachment? that's the way everyone i know has looked at the mueller report, to decide if there is dirt enough in there to substantiate an impeachment action by the house. >> definitely.

and especially with the justice department already said the president can't be indicted to anything. he's beyond the law. then you get barr in there whose unitary theory is that the president can do no wrong because he's the president. the obstruction would be actions he took as president. firing comey. he has a right to fire comey, but not for the wrong reasons. he did it for the reasons he told kislyak -- told lester holt we did it for the russia thing. then he sat the doors to america and sat down with his russian friends. the whole thing stinks. it's terrible what they've done. the truth of the matter is, we need to have a change in 2020. >> what's that say before trump? any trump? what's it say? >> it says, not trump 2020. >> okay. let me ask you about that very important point. that is this. i did a commentary on this problem months ago saying congress already had the argument for impeachment, certainly to pass it through the house. you had a guy go up to comey and say, protect my men, flynn.

who goes to the fbi and says protect his guys? a vow of owe beadians from his attorney general -- attorney general. a vow of obedience. when he wouldn't, he fired him. it seems to me step by step -- then he fired his attorney general for not -- for recusing himself under the law by the law. every step he took was to protect himself from what he had done as president. how can that not be impeachable. i wonder what you want to go to mr. mueller to tell you facts you already know. >> chris, i agree with you. i think there is a case for obstruction of justice. i think there is a case for emoluments violation. i filed articles last year. i haven't brought them up this year, but we're getting so far along in seeing what this president's done and what he's done to the constitution and the people's respect for our government. what he has done to the constitution and the rule of law is as bad as that fire did to notre dame. he's torching the entire structure of government and the people's respect for it, and the

congress needs to act and we can't act without the total facts. the facts were supposed to be in the mueller report. we'll get them. we'll find the court and we'll go to court and i think we will be allowed to see them because the redacted testimony, the grand jury testimony can be seen and there is precedent for it being given to congress. as far as the classified data, the intelligence committees and the house and senate have a right to see that data. they cannot refuse them -- that testimony. we're going to see it. it's going to come out. trump knows it's going to come out. giuliani knows it's going to come out. those rats are going to do all they can to stop the american people from knowing what they've been up to and what they've done to our constitution and do our venable system of government that respects the rule of law. >> on the facts, good indications even from mr. barr, the attorney general, there is going to be more in hereredent obstruction of justice. if you add the new stuff on to the old stuff, is it your sense there is going to be a move for impeachment or not? >> well, what i have to go on is

the fact that when it was reported by buzzfeed earlier this year that the president had effectively suborned perjury, reportedly suborned perjury for michael cohen, telling him to lie to congress about timing of the negotiations of the trump tower moscow deal, democrats were ready. they said this is it, if this is true, if we can do a little bit more investigating, we don't need to wait for mueller. i wrote a piece about how all the democrats were saying theis is grounds for impeachment. so they -- and then after that they emphasized that this was never about just waiting for robert mueller. they have conducted their own investigations. >> yeah. >> they are not necessarily going to hinge everything on what the mueller report says. now, that was before we knew that the mueller report would actually be released as early as april. there were some schools of thought that said it would be released later this year. obviously they'll have the mueller report to go on, even though it's redacted. the fact that -- the idea that they haven't been pursuing their own independent investigations is just bogus. i think also there is an argument to be made that they may have to launch impeachment

proceedings in order to get the grand jury material. >> i've heard that, too. meanwhile, speaker nancy pelosi said in a "60 minutes" interview last night that even trump knows he should not be president. >> how would you describe president trump? >> how would i describe him? i think that he describes himself on a daily basis. i think that there is nobody in the country who knows better that he should not be president of the united states than donald trump. >> you think he knows it himself? >> i think he does. >> wow. well, the president responded to pelosi's interview on twitter, saying "such a puff piece on nancy pelosi by "60 minutes." her leadership has proposed no meaningful legislation. all they do is investigate. crimes instigated and committed." congressman, what do you think you're going to have with the hat on and everything, do you have enough case to beat him in '19 or do you have to wait until 2020? >> i'm afraid we have to wait until 2020. i understand the politics.

nancy pelosi is probably right on that. as the facts come out, it might be imperative and as natasha said, we've got to do some kind of impeachment to get to some of the information of the grand jury hearings because it has to be some type of a criminal or quasi criminal type proceeding for them to release it. we've got so much on him, and it's just -- but what i saw what happened in israel, sometimes people will go for somebody who is not so good. i mean, netanyahu is a lot like trump in regard -- >> i agree. >> looking at indictments and stepping on things, and trump will play the game well, but it is -- john quincy adams said john tyler almost approached mediocrity and he didn't have the act bility to rise to the office he was put in. he might have been the worst president before donald trump. >> last question. very quickly. big debate. gene robinson on "meet the press" yesterday raised the possibility. he said maybe the smart candidate who runs against trump or runs for the nomination of the democratic party, your party, the smart candidate, man or woman, whatever, of any age, is the one who really is

anti-trump, who says i'm here to beat donald trump. no more nice. no more issues. my problem's with him being in the white house. do you think somebody with a real hard ball mentality would be the smart candidate or do you think you need to be nuanced? where are you? >> i think you have to be right in his face. he's in our face. he did, you know, lil marco and low energy jeb and lyin' hillary or crooked hillary. you got to be in his face and take him on. we need somebody. the american public doesn't like this man, but they need to have a candidate that is going to say we need to reverse the course of our country and be right and be the great country that we were founded and been for so many years. you need somebody strong and who will tell the truth. that's what the public wants, is a truth teller, and i think that's what we should have. >> sounds like you agree with gene robinson. u.s. congressman steve cohen of tennessee. up next, president trump says he's serious about his sending immigrants, the people seeking sanctuary to sanctuary cities. but mayors of those cities are saying, great, bring them on.

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. welcome back to "hardball." with the pressure of the mueller report building now and frustrated by his inability to deliver on his core campaign promise to stop illegal immigration on our southern border, president trump is escalating his rhetoric on irs. the president tweeting today, "those illegal immigrants who can no longer be legally held because congress must fix the

laws and loopholes will be subject to homeland security, given to sanctuary cities and states." so creating an iconic image of people flooding into democratic cities. that's what he wants. according to "washington post," if he were to go through with a plan, it would be a major departure from the way federal agencies are handling detainees. it quds also be prohibitively costly and make it harder for immigrants once they reach those cities. an official told nbc news the idea was rejected because it was so illegal. the tweet comes a week after the administration denied reports that the president was even considering such a thing. sending asylum seekers to cities like seattle and philadelphia. people close to the president tell "the new york times" that mr. trump is purposefully escalating his language, expressly to enliven his base of supporters and to enrage his political rivals and the news media, reviving the idea of bussing immigrant detainees in part to distract from the mueller report. that's another reason. a glistening object.

this weekend seattle mayor called the president a despot. writing in "the washington post," "if this president wants to send immigrants and refugees to seattle and other welcoming cities, let me be clear, we will do what we can, what we have always done and we'll be stronger for it. and it will only strengthen our commitment to fighting for the dignity of every person. we will not allow any administration to use the power of america to destroy the promise of america." joining us herself, mayor jenny dereken of atlanta and carlos ko cabrera-bello. thank you for joining us. you know your people. at least the ones that vote for you. you know how things work. if you were to be -- how many asylum seekers -- let's just take the category, not of poor people coming to the united states to look for jobs, but people seriously fleeing fear and horror in their home countries in central america. how many could you handle financially and socially if they were to arrive by bus or

whatever means of transportation in seattle? >> i think it we had -- first, chris, thanks for having me here. i want to say that i think, again, you're exactly right. this is trying to be a shiny distraction, but the mayors are call his bluff. it's not just seattle. i was joined by many mayors over the weekend speaking out to say we're proud of our diversity. we'll accept people like we always have. you know, seattle is in one of the fastest-growing regions in the country right now. since 2010 we've added 250,000 people. half of those people have come from other countries. so we know the diversity and vitality that gives to us and our economy. it's made us a better, stronger place. we have networks in place to help people resettle in seattle, and we've done it from -- forever. you know, we did it with cambodian refugees with vietnam and syria. we want to hope for those people who are fleeing war torn

countries and have an absolute legal right to come to america, we have -- we have networks standing by, as does los angeles and san francisco -- >> right. >> and a number of cities across this country. so it's not a threat to us. upholding the constitution and taking in people is the finest tradition of america. and the cities are ready to stand up and do that. >> well, at the current rate, i wanted to get a direct answer from you because this is "hardball," first of all, and i have to ask these questions. i know they're not fun. they're not meant to be. we're getting about a million people in this country seeking asylum. about 80% of them will be certified as true asylum seekers. have a legitimate fear of harm to their families. how many could you handle? a city of seattle, can you take 50,000 people if you had to? >> i don't think we'd take 50,000 in one go, but we'd take in thousands of refugees here in seattle. if we're assessing how many, we have the numbers dropped off, in fact, we just looked at this data do see what is the network ready to absorb?

we have a very well-established long history of this that has been waiting for morass lump seekers. the problem is not that they're being certified and denied, the problem is the president is even refusing to give asylum seekers the hearing that they're entitled to. and when i worked as a federal prosecutor in the obama administration, we knew we had to surge resources. we made sure that we followed the constitution. the president can do this. sticking them on busses is illegal. and he knows it. it's not a threat to cities. we will step up to do our part to help, but we're also going to hold him accountable. this president has to follow the law. he knows what he's doing -- what he's proposing is illegal. and we in america expect the president to follow the law. it's a novel concept, but we do. >> let's go to a law about unintended consequence. let's say the president of the united states starts bussing people -- looks pretty attractive to a person in desperate shape down in central america. if you got word over radio or

some ad because somebody is pushing it, you heard you go to seattle, that sounds pr et good. i can go to san francisco, that's good. the weather is pretty great. the people are liberal. they might be accepting me. philadelphia, a little colder in the winter, but i'm being serious here. is the unintended consequence of what trump's doing creating a magnet for people that are desperate? >> chris, i definitely think that the president by announcing that he's going to send people to these major cities that a lot of people living outside our country are familiar with, have seen images of, is an incentive for people to come to our country. i'll say, i think the mayor's right. everyone has a right to due process, not necessarily to come to our country, but certainly to have their cases heard. the irony is that everything the president is doing for making this announcement to shutting off aid to central american countries is actually going to invite more illegal immigration into our country. >> yeah. >> and i do believe that we need to have an orderly legal immigration system.

that we have to modernize our laws. the problem is that the president is going back to the 2016 playbook, rather than putting forward a serious proposal that actually might make democrats think and might make them consider it. the president is just using this political tactic to get his base animated in advance of the 2020 election. >> okay. >> if he wants to have an immigration legacy, he should proffer a serious plan that includes something like a path to citizenship for dreamers, perhaps considerations for other undocumented immigrants. sure, with stronger border security measures that most americans support. >> that's the democratic plan. i know that one. >> he could actually do that one. >> that's a good one. >> instead he wants to divide and conquer. that's a shame. >> mayor, think trump is very big on optics. i think he's hoping a couple of busses will arrive, maybe a convoy of busses of poor people, desperate people, not having anything but what they're carrying, if anything. they're going to arrive in a nice city like seattle, which is a great city. he wants to see people with

signs that say "go home." what would be the reception, the welcoming a bunch of poor people on busses would get in your city? >> you know, it's interesting. just over the weekend i've received hundreds of emails from people in our area offering places of refuge and saying i'll take some in my own home, i'll take some in our church. i think people will step up, but that's the history of america. again, chris, what is happening today, our country is founded upon taking the people -- my grandfather fled ireland when he was 16 years old. it was a war torn country. there was starvation and famine. at the age of 16, he wandered the globe for awhile and finally made it to america, where he built a home, and his son and now his granddaughter is the mayor of seattle. that's the story of america. and we will step up and we will help people who come to our city and try to make sure that they get the opportunities. you know, we have programs right

now -- our voters believe in opportunity. we passed a law that said every public high school kid gets free college regardless of their status of immigration status. we're opening up preschools for the families across seattle. we're giving free transit, including to students who are, you know, regardless of their documented status because we are the country of opportunity, and we have to remain that country of opportunity. we cannot let this president, as i said, take the power of america to destroy the promise of america. >> well said. thank you. by the way, i have one up on you. my grandmother came from northern ireland when she was 13. >> there you go, see? >> mayor jenny durkan. carlos curbello, thank you, as always. coming up, mayor pete has come out of nowhere. why is this guy rising in the polls? everyone else is staying where they are. this guy is going on. what's going on? how his early momentum has

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welcome back to "hardball." we have breaking news on the 2020 presidential race right now. just a short time ago vermont senator bernie sanders released his tax returns for the past ten years. they show that in 2016 and 2017 sanders had earned more than $1 million each year, mainly from a book he published about his 2016 presidential run. good for him. let's look at how sanders spoke about millionaires and billionaires on the campaign trail. >> a great nation is never judged by how many millionaires and billionaires it has. >> millionaires and billionaires. >> a proliferation of millionaires and billionaires. >> millionaires and billionaires.

>> the needs of millionaires and billionaires. >> that our very essence of our democracy is today being undermined by billionaires and multimillionaires. >> he defended his status, his new status to "the new york times" saying, "i wrote a best-selling book. if you write a best-selling book, you can be a millionaire, too." that's how he answered it. the 2020 hopeful has come under fire from a liberal think tank run by former hillary clinton people. in an article they suggest his attacks on income inequality were hypocritical, given his new financial situation. sanders shot back at the think tank in a letter obtained by "the new york times," accusing it of undermining democrats' chances of beating trump in 2020, "by using its resources to smear him and other nominees." just in the last hour, bernie sanders was asked about his taxes during a town hall on fox. >> it came from a book that i

wrote. pretty good book. might want to read it. it was a best-seller. sold all over the world and we made money. so if anyone thinks i should apologize for writing a best-selling book, i'm sorry, i'm not going to do it. hey, president trump, my wife and i just released ten years. please do the same. let the american people know how -- >> he got some applause for that. meanwhile, another candidate may be upending the field. mayor pete buttigieg made a dramatic debut in the race this weekend. that's coming up next, both bernie, pete, and also, don't forget, joe biden. onomy. you're small business owners, and there's nothing small about your business. that's why with dell small business technology advisors. you'll get tailored product solutions, expert tech advice and one-on-one partnership. to help your small business do big things. call an advisor today at 877-buy-dell. that's 877-buy-dell. ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." the mayor of south bend, anymoranymor indiana, pete buttigieg is the youngest democratic candidate running for president. he made it official in the town that he has led for the last eight years. >> that's why i'm here today. to tell a different story than make america great again. the forces changing our country today are tectonic. forces that helped to explain what made this current presidency even possible. that's why this time it's not just about winning an election, it's about winning an era. in and a moment like that calls for hopeful and audacious voices

from communities like ours. and, yes, it calls for a new generation of leadership in this country. >> since launching his presidential exploratory committee in january, mayor pete, as he calls himself, as has gone from relative obscurity, let's face it, to rising name in the polls. leapfrogged past candidates like -- gone past them, elizabeth warren, clair's, beto o'rourke, coming in third know only behind joe biden and bernie sanders who everybody knows, the same in iowa, the first in the country caucuses, third in the polls there as well. what's going on? for more, i'm joined by jason johnson, politics editor of the roots.com. there she is sandra day o'connor. he used to be, well, a moderate republican in the days where there were such things. let me go to you, jason. it seems to me you've been predicting off the air, white guy's going to be the nominee. >> white guy's going to be the

democratic nominee. >> after all the women and ethnic opportunity and minority opportunity. >> doesn't matter. it's going to be a white guy. because the democratic voters are afraid. they're not going to do something risky. they're going to fit somebody white who fits the mold who they think they can sell to their conservative brother-in-law in minnesota. >> where did you get the data to prove this? it's a good thesis. >> historically if you look at it, when you have primary voters and they're trying to get rid of an unpopular incumbent, they don't go for howard dean, they go for john kerry. >> times have changed so much that a gay mayor, married guy from a small town in south bend, known only for football, really, and notre dame, is somehow zooming to the top because he's the safe bet, according to you. the safe bet. >> he sounds mature. i mean, in an environment where everybody sounds juvenile, he actually sounds like a grown-up. maybe it's good he's good at speaking to grown-ups. he makes grown-ups like them.

he has a lot of practice at this, road scholars usually do. he's assuring to this old person. his moderation and sort of grown-upness is appealing. >> i think he can think about his feet. a lot of candidates revert to their talking points. anyway, during his kickoff speech yesterday, the millennial mayor appeared to take a slight dig at president trump's age. here he goes. >> not just about the next four years, it's about preparing our country for a better life in 2030, in 2040, and in the year 2054, when god willing, i get to be the same age as our current president. >> that's kind of the nba look, guys. take the coat off but leave the shirt on. keep the tie all the way up to the top but don't roll up your sleeves. that's the new look. nbas. >> he's the face neighbor. the guys that the parents want to be brought into the room. i don't think he can lead the modern democratic party. i think we're a year out. this is not a party -- >> he meets your profile.

>> he meets the profile but i don't think he can necessarily lead this party, not a party with women and african-americans -- >> he's on rachel tonight and he's gangbusters in interviews, evan. as you said -- >> the democratic party is still more moderate than you might think watching tv. a lot of moderates and he appeals to them. >> you're talking to the apostle of that. i believe the voters are there are not very far left. half the party is left in a progressive mood, but the other half is like, i don't know. let's talk about bernie. bernie, everybody thought was a little bit yesterday. >> right. >> yet he's holding on strong. look at him. he's out there. he's got the juice. >> i am surprised. i thought bernie sanders was going to be in a lot more trouble than he is now. i think that his ability to maintain this lead, and his real lead against a very deep and strong field demonstrates, look, maybe people aren't as bitter about 2016 as they used to be. i don't know that he can keep this. >> who is in his bracket? who is losing because he's winning? >> elizabeth warren is losing because he's winning. i think klobuchar is losing because he's winning.

i pretty much think gillibrand. >> let's talk about a woman who made history. >> she made history because she was smart about a couple of things. she stood up for herself, yes, but she didn't pick stupid fights. on the supreme court, she outsmarted nino scalia. he's flashier and more intellectual. she had way more power, preserving abortion rights and affirmative action, she out-foxed scalia by -- >> was she a politician as well as a justice? was that her personal view? >> no, she was a politician in a small "p" sense. she knew how to get five on the supreme court. 330 times in 25 years. she's the decisive vote. that's a lot of power. >> who has that job now? roberts? >> kagan maybe. i think she's sort of in that mold. she could be. or roberts. we have to see. >> okay. everybody i know likes sandra day o'connor. here's the question, would she get nominated by this republican president in this republican field today? >> not a chance. when she came on the court,

ronald reagan loved her and was proud of her, but she had no judicial track record. he wasn't even -- she was a state appeals judge. no chance trump or any modern republican president would appoint here. >> let's get back to pete buttigieg. great book. first, great title. >> thank you. >> let me ask you about this, buttigieg, when he goes after people in their 70s, was he taking a little shot at biden? >> it's biden, it's that whole generation. look, he's the millennial guy. >> he's half as old. >> exactly. he's half as old. he wants to capture that youth vote. again, i don't know if that's going to be enough, but right now it makes him the most engaging person. >> are they picking a nominee to beat trump or just somebody they like? >> the great thing about trump is that he changed all the rules. there are no rules. anything can happen. a small town mayor basically with a nice smile and a nice manner actually has a chance. this would have been unthinkable ten years ago. >> we've come a long way on orientation and gay rights and acceptance in many ways.

when i saw him dancing with his husband, what the change of 30 years. do we all agree? this wouldn't have happened 30 years ago. >> this wouldn't have happened ten years ago. he hasn't have been elected mayor 15 years ago. >> social norms can change. and this is the most dramatic example. >> it's the fastest i've ever seen anything change, anything like it, it's dramatic and positive. thank you, jason. i don't like it when you're right sometimes. i don't know what you're up to. i think you ought to prove there is no hope sometimes for minorities. anyway, thank you, evan thomas. up next, tragedy of our greatest church. you're watching "hardball." really?

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they gave us lafayette and the french fleet at york town. with that, our independence. they gave us the statute of liberty, our icon of hope for all the world. we watched the near destruction of what stood for nearly nine centuries. notre dame of paris, where napoleon was crowned emperor of france. notre dame, the jewel of france. charles de gaulle game to pray after the liberation. those of us who are catholics, notre dame is our greatest church and who study history as the proof of civilization. evidence that man can build something that not only survives but never loses its power to

inspire. when the great hindenberg burst into flames. the announcer seeing the victims in agony could only say the unforgotten, "oh, the humanity." together we could only say, oh, the civilization. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> all we need to do is see the mueller report. >> in the middle of congressal recess, the attorney general decides to release his version of the mueller report. >> i'm landing the plane right now. >> tonight what we can expect to see on thursday, and how the president will try to spin it. plus -- >> what's your tax rate? i don't know. i pay as little as possible. because i'm an honest guy. >> the latest excuse from a white house desperate to keep the president's taxes under wraps. >> i don't think congress are smart enough to look through the thousands of pages