his town hall on fox news last night, he's got the support for his key policy prescriptions. bernie sanders is arguably the democratic front-runner for president. good morning. welcome to "morning joe," it is tuesday, april 16th. along with joe, willie and me, we have mike barnicle, columnist for "the washington post" david ignatius, washington anchor for bbc world news america katty kay and historian, author of "the soul of america" and rogers professor of the presidency at vanderbilt university john meacham, an nbc news and msnbc contributor. we'll start with the latest on the catastrophic fire at notre dame. officials say the structure has

been saved. while the fire spread to one of two famous bell tower, they have been spared. around 500 firefighters battled the blaze for hours and prevented it from spreading to the northern belfry. one firefighter suffered serious injuries and there are no fatalities. most of the roof of 12th and 13th century gothic cathedral has been destroyed and a spire collapsed after being ungulfed in flames. the exact cause is currently unknown, but french media is quoting the paris fire brigade as saying it is, quote, potentially linked to a major renovation project on the church's spire and its 250 tons of lead. what a disaster. i mean, just watching this yesterday was about as heart

breaking as it gets. >> it really was. you know, when we watched the twin towers fall, the tragedy was felt not on the united states but across the world and it was a body blow. >> human loss. >> a body blow and a great human loss for the world's at the time lone super power. but john meacham yesterday watching this and hearing word of this tragedy spreading, it really felt like a dag are thrust at the heart of western civilization. >> it did. like everybody, i was watching it trying to think about why it was so disturbing. i think i finally settled on the fact that this was such an elemental crisis. it's fire and faith, two things that that shape us and have shaped us since we got the fire

from the gods to mix our theological world views. and the point of a cathedral, the reason medieval christians built such enormous structures was to make something on earth that would be what they thought of as an icon of the new jerusalem. it was supposed to make you feel awe, it was supposed to make feel small in the great cosmology and that this was the house of god, this was why god was worthy in many ways of worship. and then to have another element from the core of who we are destroy it was this sort of fascinating and unsettling moment in which two things that we revere don, don't particular understand, were fighting with

each other. >> and willie geist, just for viewers, just to know the background, notre dame was actually built on the site what originally in ann chnt times was the rome and temple of and then another ancient temple was build approximately notre dame was built and it slopely but surely evolved into the great structure that it was but had it of this extraordinary city or this extraordinary building. this had been through -- survived plagues, attacks during the french revolution in 17, 1889 and it fell into disarray.

the russians occupied the city. of course it was almost it was in such dilapidated shape. perhaps that why in a crone was saying we'll and we kind of surprised since the 12th and 13th centuries it stood through all the events of history you described there, including a revolution, including adolph hitler before american troops, that got me which was the american g. inkts having

liberated the city from the nazis. i'm heartened by a couple of things, that the crown of thorns said to be worn by geesus at his chris i'm heartened by the fact that two french families have pledged $350 million already to get this beautiful but what a scene where you have the chaplain for the paris fire department runs into the fire with firefighters to save the crown of thorns. >> yes. it was like you, willie, watching it like many millions around the world watching this yesterday afternoon, i was struck by the different reactions i had as the afternoon wore on and the fire built. first astonishment, surprise at the fire, and then a sense of grief within me about what i was watching. and i was trying to figure it out and as john meacham was just

speaking about it, it means much more than just the soul of a nation burning, france. it part of the soul of civilization burning. and i ganl given so you achieve, for people like as you o things thing, a sense of humility. but i began to wonder are we paying too much attention to what we have today in our present california at the expense of what we have had in the past? near will 900 years of history, faith, civilization in that ka theetd or are we too busy paying attention to the immediacy of our culture today, to worry and with that we ought to tay pore a and then the symbolism of date

itself and holy week, holy thursday, good friday, easter sunday, the resurrection coming an afternoon let's go to richard engel. let's start first with cause of the fire. the fire department has suspected it was this renovation that was taking place up high in the beams. what more have they said about that today? >> so they have ruled out arson. they have ruled out terrorism. they say they treating and havingors have have something may have gone wrong there, that there could have been a will

studying to see how much structural damage there was. they say that the about the and a will the feel in themselves, what happened, how much of the building was there is a sense of belief that people are coming here to say maybe we can go on, maybe we can real rebuild. already there have been hundreds of million%. >> until they figure out how mu much. >> richard, i mentioned the crown of torns. do you have saved and what was in the saved from the ka thoot the crown of thorn,in $.

specific most important religious artifacts and some of the iconic art work was in fact salvaged. but nmthey're not going to know the full, tent of the damage. nm make sure that it safe for rescue works are beams on top of tem you mentioned how this is a building that has been touched by fire and is filled with faith and that has brought people here together. there is a sense that paris had a collective experience. for a moment last night as they saw this building in flames and then the french game out with

that it might be es from people came out, they were crying here on the streets and now they're coming out, they're seeing what's left, there's time to rebuild. there have had -- and already there are constitutions will it be an updated doo sign or just a rekree croatian of what was there before. >> thank you so much, richard eng l. joe? >> catty, it's so interesting. not on notre dame it's known for its bit oo the history of this

city and even this great ka theed drol, you don't understand yesterday hearing the french talking about rebuilding, i was reminded of the motto for paris, which is translated into "she is tossed by the waves but she does not sink." >> that is a perfect motto for what happened to notre dame over the last 24 hours. you're right, all through the revolution, of course through the second world war, the riots of '68. preeceuns have known an enorthe enorthern in another moment, he

was meant to speak about how the country could come together. i do feel that it's not just frizz i frizzian and the reason why it touched us in this moment of intense division that we are all going through, for a few hours yesterday we rebound found a sense of common humanity in the power of this beautiful building and the architecture and it common grief. and no we haven't had that in a long time. we've forgotten what it like to feel certainly together and support each other and feel love together for this thing and it was notre dame's fire yesterday that did that for us. >> absolutely. you look at it as a loss for paris, you look at it as a loss

for france but really, think what a lot of us were. everybody's heart was brac david ignatius, you lived in paris from 2000 to 2004. you've been to theed in many times. your first visit there was back in 1969. explain to someone o has never been to paris why this cathedral is so important to the city. >> well, first, mika, it's a place where everybody, whatever their religion, goes as a pilgrim. you're entering this place of history, you enter and the light seems different, the little flickers of colored light from the beautiful rose window that was over the main tower. and then seeing these ancient relics and statues, just it was

a mystical place from the first time i entered there. you'd light candle for someone that you loved, say a prayer inside that church. but in addition to being a shrine, it was a center for young people in paris. outside notre dame, you'd have rollerskaters, skate boarders, kind of a carnival of music and dance. i used to bring my children up the river to notre dame on weekends just for the pleasure of being in this beautiful, ancient place with the most modern, festive celebrations going on. and i think it's that role that it played, not as a piece of dead history but living history, that made watching the flames consume it so painful. i like everybody around this table so to speak, i've been thinking about what it was for one day for everybody around the world to be watching these same

images of loss with the same feeling of horror and desire to rebuild and, you know, that's the kind of moment the world needs a few more of to be honest. looking at what's left of the building, there's a lot left. the wooden roof, the wooden instruct why astructure was bui. the gothic architects knew what they were doing. the reason it's so extraordinary is because of the huge stone buttresses that allow the walls to go outstandingly high. they're still standing. the roof, the spire that was added actually quite later gone tragically, but the essential strun structure still there. >> david's right, we could be talking about a much worse

scenario, if those buttresses were still stale stable, the organ, the rose window, if those are in tact, that's good news in an otherwise terrible story. surely you've seen it if you can't see it right now. inside the cathedral as the fire was doused, began to go out, light shining upon the cross that's still standing. >> still standing. and the coincidence of this occurring on holy monday is remarkable. yesterday was palm sunday, which commemorates jesus' triumphant entry into jerusalem. within four days he will be arrested, betrayed, tried, scourged, crucified and according to christian cosmology rise again.

and one of the key tenets of many of the world's religions but particularly of the judeo christian faith is at the heart of our faith lies remembrance, the most obeyed command arguably in human history is what jesus to have said this coming thursday night in the last supper when he says, "do this in remembrance of me." and moses says remember the days of old, ask they father and tell they elders and they will show thee. it's about remembrance. the sacramental nature of that structure is a physical manifestation of this unseen reality. and for me, i'm sort of a boring sacramental christian.

i tried to obey the command, to remember and to show up at mass, no matter no what i might feel. if you're not there you can't feel it particularly. and i think the power of that photograph you showed and what will be the power of i don't know if that are going to be the ruins exactly but the power of the damaged church will be that we will remember and move forward. >> remember and move forward and, john, you're so right, remembrance, it plays such an important role in this holy wook but the words that we were hearing yesterday as the flames were still burning at notre dame, that this extraordinary structure that lay at the center, not phone paris ofnd but

of wrn civilization will be rebuilt. >> so richard engel, we understand you have more information on what is happening there at the scene. richard? >> reporter: so while we were talking, the paris prosecutor just gave a press conference. he said that investigators are still on the scene, that 15 people who were involved in the restoration work so far have been questioned. they were on the scene yesterday, but perhaps so far investigators are not able a got into notre dame, of this yet. >> all right. richard thank you very much. we will continue this conversation. still ahead on "morning joe," we're just days away from the mueller report going public. it important voters bracing for

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my name is tanya, i work in the network operations center for comcast. we are working to make things simple, easy and awesome. the justice department says it expects to release special counsel robert mueller's redacted report on russian meddling in the 2016 election and an fgs who has spoken to a member of mueller's team told nbc news the report describes compelling evidence on obstruction with more more information than barr's report. it's not clear how mueller himself feels about the matter.

and new reporting on nbc are worried that the public version of the mueller report will expose them as the sources of damaging information about president president trump. people familiar with the discussion say some of the officials and their lawyers have sought clarity from the or if the public report will be written in a way that makes it obvious who shared certain details of trump's actions in the obstruction probe. but the justice department has refused to elaborate. joining us, national political reporter for nbc news, carol lee. we get to the heart of the reason people don't want to sao their names all offer. >> there as somestldon mcgann spent couldn'tless hours look,

we were told by the president and his league team to, hey, cooperate with the investigation. the only thing to do is go in and tell the truth or otherwise risk perjury charges. now it's coming out and is my name going to be in there or is it going to be like a bob woodward book kind of thing where you can kind of figure out exactly who said what and what the different sources are. and then basically they're all just worried about the president's wrath, that he and hisle al lie are going to come down on them and contract size them. there's a lot of anxiety. >> will do -- that's why they're worried that won't be redabted? >> yes. a couple of people said there's

not so much thanks that we can't imagine what the president would have said or done. it just more of the kind of things that we know and that will be able to be astriebd certain situations. it could be it's just the president and within. >> daviding in what are your thoughts on what we're going to see? is this going to be just the first in a number of steps towards the slow, pab what are you hearing, what are your thoughts? >> from what we know, it will be segly redacted and then it will be a vat there will be a fight

whether the have theive materials to we'll get a lot more evidence about the questio question. we know el. by saying he found obstruction but clearly there's a lot of evidence and tshl mcglinch talked he previously want to do. he'll be a key part of this. other top white house spgsists, i have my own list of questions i hope will be answered about description and the collusion evidence. we'll see how many of these really have answers. on the conclusion front, we still want to understand what

the nature of some of these contacts between trump campaign officials and russians. if mueller decided it didn't constitute collusion, how did he go through that process of decision? hopefully we'll have better evidence when the report comes out. >> when the report does come out, it will be redacted publicly but are you hearing from democrats who really feel they have the upper hand legally to get the entire report sent to them, especially unredacted, especially since it was the republicans, posed all thereto which carried the same weight as grand jury testimony. >> it's a great point, joe, because what the democrats have said they will do is essentially use that play book that republicans have kind of set out the road map in the first two years of the trump administration for how they wanted to get additional information.

and by going into and requesting information about how certain things were done, e-mails, house of representatives decisions were made from the justice department so there's will little bit of precedent there. so it seems like thursday is when the report is expected to come out is kind of the beginning of a process that's still going to drag on for some time. >> nbc's carol lee, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> coming up, president trump gets a 2020 republican challenger, former governor william weld joins the conversation discuss his decision to take on trump for the party's nomination and his strategy for success in that bid. we'll be right back. at bid. we'll be right back. ♪ limu emu & doug

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he's not a war hero because he was captured. i like people who weren't

captured. >> you have fine people on both sides. >> i love wikileaks. >> i know nothing about wikileaks. >> america has a choice, 2019. >> it's official, president trump has a primary challenger. yesterday former two-term massachusetts governor william weld officially announced he will enter the race for the 2020 republican nomination. weld is the first republican to declare a bid to deny trump a second term, but it's not the first time he's faced trump on the national stage. weld ran for vice president on the 2016 libertarian party ticket headed by gary johnson. and william weld joins us now from new hampshire, which will hold the first primary of the 2020 nomination contest. good to have you on the show this morning. >> governor, thanks so much for being with us.

obviously you're engaged in a long shot campaign, but we of course remember back in 1991 when bill clinton was in the race and how do you convince voters you're the candidate that can deliver the leadership they need? >> i think it's one voter at a time. i think it's good for the country to put the president to proof, ask him some why questions, why do you so angry about everything all the time, as was said earlier, everyone is fearful of the president's wrath. bob woodward's book was called "fear." i think that seems to be the president's strategy.

i've said that i think this is a case of the emperor's new clothes and somebody had to raise their hand and say the emperor does have new clothes. so a year is a long time in politics. if you look at history, the new hampshire primary has gone up and down and the polls have gone up and down. i'm going to camp out up here as well as other parts of the country and make the case. i think the case is very much there to be made. >> governor, you've been up in new hampshire several times prior to your official announcement. i figure you might have some support in a couple of streets in concord, a couple of streets in whatevhanover, when you've b there, do you get any resonance in anything you say during your course of talking to people? >> i get resonance from everybody that i talk to. they're not the leadership of the republican state party but

those people are all taking dictation from washington. they're not going to be the people that cast votes that will decide the primary elections. they're just the primary bosses, if you will. my strategy will to enlarge -- i that in massachusetts and the independents came in to me 6-1. so that's a strategy that would not put so much weight on today's polls. >> governor, from your campaign ad, it looks pretty clear what you're running on is the president's character and house of representatives you see that as being unfit for office, but many trump supporters we know also have questions about the president's character but they feel how do you split but we

like the policies that he's implementing. >> what you sometimes hear people say is i like the president's tax cut, but it's not style when you're as angry all the time and uncurious as this president is, it goes beyond style. it goes to policy and substance and i think he comes out in the wro is a hoax. does who this and lying about. it portray as lag of homework and not really thinking ahead about what to do. we're going to have the white mountains with no snow. the oceans are going to rise. we're going to have all our sea coast rearrange when the polar ice cap melts if nobody doesing in about this.

i think doing nothing is utterly irresponsible. it's not style, it's a stab. >> governor, you're a well-known happy warrior in these clients. >> better a happy warrior than miserable narcissist. >>boy, that will get the country going, sir. but that's sort of my question is gene mccarthy, ronald reagan, pat bu your pitch fork is or -- how do you get insurgent energy when you're saying let's return to a centered place? >> i'm not saying let's return to anything other than the values of the party of abraham lincoln. i'm say being let's think ahead about what to do about artificial intelligence and rebot, and drones and all the jobs we're going to lose and

let's make sure that the displaced workers have the education they need which are going to be who i haier paying and have more it parkbut i don't see anyone paying attention to that in washington because they're too busy screaming at each other. >> brendan: so, even, what es w was also talking about new hampshire in 1991. >> sure. i think the first thing i would do for them is to make sure they can get the two years of post secondary -- it would be not expensive at all to make community college free for those displaced workers. it could easily be done with but

it's a pretty obvious lun one. the other thanksgiving nobody in washington seems to be interested in cutting spending at all. this president has not vetoed within dime -- republicans used to be known for being economic conservatives. i was ranged the most physically conservative government in the united states when i was in office and i would like to bring back some of that. >> form are goand great to have you on the show this morning. up next, nancy pelosi is taking on the myth of" quote with win wi with. we'll be right back. with we'll be right back. some things are out of

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up are pretending with a group in congress, over here on the left flank are these self-described moderates. >> wlaef con tags they came to congress with, they know we have to hold the center, go done the mainstream. >> reporter: they know that? >> they do. >> reporter: but it doesn't look like that. it looks as if it's fractured. you have these wings, aoc and her group on one side. it's the progressive group. >> i'm a progressive. >> when we won the election, it wasn't in districts like mine or alexandria's, all though she's a wonderful member of congress. but those are districts that are solidly democratic. this glass of water would win with a "d" next to its name.

but we and we're going to help the one of five americans who goes to sleep at night, who lives in poverty in our country, we have to win. >> organization my gosh. i love her. >> editor the large, business crystal. we're finding in nancy pelosi, forget ideology, forget what party she's in, actually something really extraordinarily developing here and that is a speaker of the house who more than just having a grasp on what's happening inside their chamber, which is what speakers are usually focused on, solely focused on, nancy pelosi actually is trying to figure out actually how to get the democratic party in the middle, the political middle, not only

inside those holes of congress but also across america. it's quite a development. a surprising development. >> yeah, it's interesting. it strikes me i was talking with someone who has worked with her for a long time the other day, nancy pelosi wants a democrat to defeat donald trump in 2020. most speakers of the house would want their party to be president. ifou don't have the president of your own party and you're the biggest shot in your own party in town, but she, you know, she thought of stepping down. she chose to obviously run for reelection as speaker. that wasn't so easy. she had to arm twist a little bit to get the votes. she wants to manage the house competently, but i think she knows not that much will get done with trump as president and mcconnell as majority leader but she really, i think it's

obvious, deeply wants to be the person who holds the house democrats together and shapes the democratic a wavious for the speaker of the house to fights as opposed to deferring to the presidential candidates out there. >> now she is a party leader and seems like every time a member of her house says certainly that could hurt swing voters, she steps in, cleans it up. let me ask you about bill weld. it's longshot but as you and i both know, whenever you have an incumbent and i hope he does

well and i hope other challengers will get into the race. mike barnicle and i were talking about this during the break. i think bill weld can do better than people think. you watch that interview he just did on here, he's intelligent, he's progressive, he's politically shrewd. he has that man are as if he never thinks of politics. careful to say he was for tax cuts and generally supporting the republican tax cut and he was a physicalfiscally conserva governor in massachusetts, which i think is true actually. it's not about style, it's the key. you like hill style, his tone, his man are, maefr so we'll have

to be a little more interesting than people think, whether larry hogan or gillard or gallagher gets in or no one takes tof but talking about the bug spending the radical big spending the republicans have been engaged in for some time in washington, d.c. actually is a message that conservatives i think will want to listen to. last night bernie sanders did what he was go to fox news, get your message ot on fox knows and hold tons and. >> you recommended a wealth tax,

70% wealth tax. >> no, actually, didn't. >> what would your number be? >> in the campaign 2015 we talked about 52%. >> would you be willing to pay 52% on the money you made? you can volunteer, you can send it back. >> you can volunteer, too. >> but you suggested everybody in your bracket should do. >> martha, why don't you give? you make more money -- >> i didn't suggest a wealth tax. >> you raise the issue i was a millionaire. this year we had $560,000 in income. that's a lot of money. that money in my case and in my wife's case it came from a book i wrote, pretty good book, you might want to read it. it was a best seller, it sold all offer the world and we made money. if anyone thinks i should apologize for writing a best selling book, i'm sorry, i'm not going to do it.

i guess the president watches your network a little bit, right? hey, president trump, my wife and i just released ten years. please do the same. >> i hope that tom perez is watching that. he has urged all the candidates to stay away from fox. that's exactly what all the democratic candidates ought to be doing as much as they could. >> i watched him in 2016, well, it's an anti-hillary vote. think he may be the front-runner right now. just analytically, whatever you think of him, whatever you want, the chances of him being the democratic nominee are not that small and he know what is he's doing there. >> the idea of him standing there on the stage, but standing there on the stage taking on supposedly the larger fox audience out there, that's exactly what the democrats ought to be doing. >> and i saw a clip of this.

i saw it on, he was asked what do you think of this medicare thing and two-thirds of the audience was that sound great to me, if the government could provide union care that coming up as nbc news's ann thompson will join us with the significance of this can't and president trump isn't waiting for its release to attack it. wait, i thought he liked it! >> what did he say, hop rabble? >> he did. i thought he was good. he was so happy about it. >> an honorable investigation. thank you, mr. president prz.

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>> translator: our history, our literature, our imagination, the place where our big historical moments, plagues, wars, liberation, it is at the very heart of our lives. with pride i tell you tonight that we will rebuild this cathedral all together and it is

part of the faith, the destiny of transand our coming project over the coming years. >> rebuilding is france's destiny, french president emmanuel macron. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, april 16th. we have mike barnicle, david ignatius, washington anchor for bbc world news america katty kay, historian and author of the soul of america, john meacham, founder and director of groupt defending democracy together and editor at large of the bulwark, bill crystal and joining the conversation pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst, u who covers religion and the wat lk dhuch so many girch passets

to cover with this massive catastrophe, joe, this fire at notre dame. the paurz prosecutor said right now the structure is not stable and havingors cannot currently enter. around 500 firefighters battled the blaze for hours yesterday. one firefighter has suffered serious injuries. there are no fatalities of the 12th and 13th century gothic procedural has been destroyed and a fire collapse ftd the current cause is unknown but authorities believe it is potentially linked to major renovation project on the church's spire and it's 250 tons of lead. officials are currently questioning construction workers. the paris office has ruled out arson and terrorism and is treating it, joe, as an

accident. >> as an accident. what was a tragedy, though, as john meacham spoke up earlier that we all felt across the world. it holds such app extraordinary place in the hearts of not only parisians and french and people across the world, but the belief that it has always been this beloved structure actually ignores history that it at times has become dilapidated, ignored, the reputation of it fluctuated hugely over the ages. sir allen horace, the area was designated as an area for prostitutes tess puts, will be

luxury 1789. it was napoleon who actually restored it only so he could be crowned emperor. but the cathedral was in such terrible shape that its ravaged, dead walls had to be draped with hangings to provide the required assumption nit. and until yesterday was a will gocy of the 19th century gothic medieval restorer. and but a few years after that ann thompson, notre dame, was threatened again with destruction, this time by the commune of 1871, when the pews were wild in the center and sobd with p-- soaked with petroleum. after dealing with the germans

and hitler, in 1944 it face the possibility of its own destruction. this is an incredibly important building but a building that has seen some fairly bad days, not quite as tragic as yesterday. >> well, and i think that's exactly why so many of us were so moved by the pictures that we saw yesterday. this church that is about and why the within it's a church that's significant not just in a spiritual sense, it's obviously the seat of the catholic church in the country of fans, but it's also very important in a cultural sense. it architecturally a very significant building. it had the flying buttresses to help support the walls, it hi

and if you've ever walked in that building, when you go in and go from the light paris into the dark interior and the sun shoot it is a very mist call or upstanding experience. and whatever religious you may and i think yesterday the world took time to look at that and rool -- that nobody ever expected us to lose. >> joining us, father o'brien, the mad scramble to save the

many artifacts that were inside the notre dame was under way yesterday. if you could explain to us the historic and symbolic significance, specifically to the catholic church and what it meant to see the notre dame burning yesterday. >> yeah, i think you know, this was a gut punch for a lot of catholics, not just in france but around the world. you talk to folks here in the u.s., i'm on the west coast, my friend in the east coast, it was a gut bunch p punch. sort of what ann said, when people go in there, whether they're religious or not, their gaze is dawn heaven ward, they look up at the beautiful arched ceiling. you touch something transcendent there and other worldly. it calls all of us to something greater. to see it in flames, i think it

impacts us just as human beings because we know we're meant for something greater and this beautiful cathedral represented that. to see that spire fall and that spire i believe dates to the 19 ts centu -- 19th century. and when we saw that spire fall, it hit you as a human being. especially during this holy week. there is also something resilient. it has been about a thousand years this has been here. it will be rebuilt. there's something resilient about this building but more so something resilient about people's faith. that's what i'm attaching to now. >> kevin, this is mike barnicle. you just referenced holy week,

good friday, we've just been through palm sunday. the metaphorical aspect of what millions around the globe watched yesterday, notre dame burning, the, a in the air, the sense of loss, the sense of hope given late last night, early this morning that it might be rebuilt. could you speak to that in the sense of what it means to have faith in an institution and the cultural faith that you have in an institution. >> yeah, this is the holiest week of the christian calendar. think it's such a powerful, living -- the pain and loss of what is happening to this building, a lot of people cope with it in a different way. but at the end of holy week for

christians is oos and so i think that's where we're -- what mag ro roons that the summons of holy week is we're going to bible o if and hopefully our faith. >> father, how would you preach this, as i suspect you'll have to do in a few days. what's the message here for people who feel all too vulnerable all the time to see an emblem of what's supposed to be eternal also becoming, a to, a -- becoming ashes to ashes, dust to dust? >> that's a great question. a lot of us will be preaching

and thinking about that. for me in a sense this is a beautiful building. it's a monument to culture as was mentioned earlier, and to faith. but faith does not reside in a building. you know, we are also celebrating the time of passover in this time of year and the jewish people had their temple destroyed earlier in their history and the profits responded by that not simply in a pla had been done before but the build willing arm -- has to sacred places help people grow in their face but they are not the sum of people's faith. that's what's most important to remember is that we will carry god always in our hearts and

house of representatives we make god living not in our monuments but the express of faith and because cover the khat isn't this a metaphor for what the khat lk church is going through today? it is, when you talk to the leadership of the church, and they speak about the purification that's needed in the wake of the sex "bus canned als. you think about france, 60% of the people are catholic, 10% of the field go to do you see this as a met a moe in a lot of conversations had temperature

but i think we have to remember the church doesn't exist for itself but it exists for service in our world and to bring tenderness and we saw the destruction that a fire can bring and it was lef when thanksgiving and that god is stel at workba'ath what's happening within the church butch also within our world where there's so much division and so much pain and loss. to me this is a call that latched on to hope and mang things come alive not necessarily in how we and has sr

viefd two word among the certainly brated artworks inside are ielts three stained glass rose window feature had had. the rev eared dates back to the 12th century. a spokesperson tells nbc news that the ross window and great organ are, quote, in good condition. >> the crown ofhas been had had in the ka thood rahal as now couch on o kagsally dischristmas representing matthew mark, look

the ka thood dral as enternl wood i don't know frame, nicknamed the forthat dates back to the 1,100s no more. it is believed to have helped fuel the raging fire. joe, these losses are just sickening to the heart. when you watched that roof burning and you just knew what wassin side there, it was painful. >> it was painful. there was so much concern, though, about many of the artifacts that have in fact we are hearing first reports have been saved. and that certainly is certainly something for those who loved this church, this cathedral, to hold on to. gene robinson, though, again

this -- i was hearing news reports yesterday and people talking throughout the day about how important the notre dame was to the city of paris. that limits its importance so much. notre dame, i always saw it as the center of western civilization, watching it burn yesterday was like watching a knife thrust at the heart of western civilization, much like 9/11 was a serious body blow on the world's only super power. >> notre dame certainly was the center, the heart of paris. and a symbol of western civilization. i vividly recall the first time

i visited paris, lining up to go into notre dame and just explore this amazing building, walking around the grounds, looking at the flying buttresses and inside gazing up at that windows. and then in subsequent visits to paris, frankly, kind of took it for granted. it had been there for 800 years, it would be there for another 800 years, one assumed. and so to see this symbol of permanence, also a sim there a lot of questions now about the rebuilding and one big question will be as they rebuild, will

they do it in the way it was built the first time with using wood? will they use more fire resistant materials? will they try to do things to prevent anything like this happening again? and so those will be decisions that will be made in the next years, frankly, because it will take some time just to assess the damage. it is worrisome that the prosecutor says the structure of the cathedral is not stable. it's unclear exactly what that means. that stone was subjected to enormous heat and i think we're yet to know what the final outcome is on the structure that remains and one hopes that it retains so richard engel

reporting it may or may not yet be stable. and as for what shape renovations take, it's whatever design, whatever shape that ren obecause even notre dame and its current as being vandal oozed by the 19th centurythis was a body blow for the church, which as ann said is certainlying ifit

comes at a terrible time for the people of paris and frens and pan won drs whether this tragedy actually is are to brung that city and that country back together. >> joe, france like the whole world needs something to unify around, to believe in. i thought it was moring when the frch president spoke about notre dame as our common project to rebuild. there is something mysterious about this fire. the causes don't match the consequences. this accident apparently been workers trying to repair the structure lead to this conflagration. looks like hell fire. and think just getting a sense of how this could have happened.

struggling with that will be part of what's ahead. i do think by easter sunday we'll be talking about rebuilding. the money will have grown to hundreds thousands of euros and dollars to many millions and i think that's what the world's focus is going to be. how do you save the structure. people say often a cathedral is a structure that's never really finished. >> joe, listening to to tease conversation,s reminded of kenneth black. at one point he's standing in front of notre dame and he goes on to say but i think i can when i see it. and he trns and he looks at notre dame and he says, and i'm looking at it right now.

>> looking at the heart of western civilization, exactly right. >> mike, thank you. nbc news's ann thompson, thank you. your coverage has been incredible. >> and still the new york city kol manyist joins the conversation with treeging new book next on "morning joe." book next on "morning joe. - [woman] with my shark, i deep clean messes like this.

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joining us now op-ed columnist for "the new york times," best selling author david brooks. he's out today with a new book entitled "the second mountain, the quest for a moral life." >> great to have you on. >> your book is a fascinating book, an important book to read. really it's the tale of two mountains. describe those two mountains to

our viewers. >> the first mountain is the montan of career. the one thing i learned in life is career success does not make you fulfilled. i remember the first time i got a call from my editor that i had written a best selling book and i felt like it would be a realization of a dream but it felt like nothing. and then we live under the illusion that we can make ourselves happy individually, all i have to do is lose 15 more pounds, be really good in yoga and that, too, is a lie. fulfillment comes in relationship. we're in sort of a moral and spiritual connection of relationship. it's a moral crisis in the country. this book is an attempt to name that moral crisis and here's a

better way to live our lives and be fulfilled. >> what is the cause, what do you believe the cause of that moral crisis has been? >> it's a culture of individualism, a culture that says it's all about me, it's all about self. it's a rise of narcissism. so people when up have a culture that says i can make myself happy, when you have a culture that says i can find my own truth, then what you get is you weaken the bonds between people and you sort of let the ego, which is part of our consciousness take over and the relations to the heart and soul sort of wither away. i have noticed so many people in our culture who are just joyous, they just radiate joy. they've done three things, rejected the egos from our culture, they've sunk deeper into themselves and, third,

they've given themselves away. those people who want to live in right relationship with other people and they want to feel their soul is fulfilled, those people have been a model to me and we just have to get away from all the evil that donald trump personifies and get to the virtue that they personify. >> so, david, this is not years coming. this is actually the cause i think of the way we've all been raised over several centuries, the renaissance, the glorification of the individual, the power of the individual over the state, the individual over the monarch. yes, that's something that we have long celebrated, but it's obviously been taken to an unhealthy extreme. has that happened over the past

20, 30 years or has it been much longer in coming? >> i think it's mostly 60 years. in the 50s, we had the depression, we had to create tight communities. if you lived in chicago, you didn't say i'm from chicago, i'm from 59th and polasky. we had to oppress that culture and we shifted over to a culture of individualism, i want to be myself. my hero when i was a kid was joe namath and joe namath wrote a book called "i can't wait until tomorrow because i get better looking every day." we've had 60 years of that. it was good in the beginning but we've gone too far. we shifted way over to the

individual and lost a sense of the common good. >> david, how much of this problem has been powered by technology, in terms of the nextgen racial and the next generation because we have witnessed the rise of the cell phone. it didn't even exist when we were children. and now money and anything that you need appears, poof, out of nowhere. there's no sort of beginning, middle, end to a material transacti transaction. has technology taken this up a notch to a point where we're sort of coarsened and we have generations beyond us that are coarsening quickly? >> i think it's a piece of the problem. the most shocking statistic i know is kids 10 to 17, the suicide rate for those people have gone up 70%.

70%. at every college, their mental health system is swamped with kid with depression, trauma, those sorts of things. but we've also raised them and put the most privileged of them in this college admission process and tell them achievement and status is going to be in the center of your lives. that's going to be tough for them. so beating that back is part of the challenge to having healthy young people in the society. >> david, are the two mutually exclusive, the pursuit of success, particularly in a country like the united states where people really do work crazier hours and take no vacation, more so than any other western country that i've lived in and this moral, connected life that you're talking about, does one preclude the other?

>> no. when i lived in europe, i said i'm going to take six weeks of vacation, it's so much better but then i got back and two weeks. for me the people i really admire, they live for relationship. they live for the idea of what really matters to me is being close to other people. one of the stories i read in a book called practical wisdom is there was a janitor in a hospital named luke. luke was cleaning rooms and one of the rooms he was cleaning had a kid who was in a coma and his father was waiting for him, just standing vigil for six months. one day the faert was o- -- thf

was there. and the father went out to a smoke and came back in and said you're didn't clean my room and luke said, yes, i did and he said i'm going to clean your room a second time so you can feel that. >> did you find rich people really as miserable as -- and isolated and alienated as poor people? >> for sure. i think our souls are really quick and, it gives you infinite

value, that rape is not just an attack on physical molecules, it's an insult on somebody's soul. the poorest people and richest people in the world, their soul yearns for goodness. and the religions that tell us the poor are claes er they're leaving a little more virtuous than the people at the top who are more enrap toured by our country. do. >> like the ka theed drals, they thought of them as places where god came down and touched earth. it was like a who are 'tis call the or thing that struck me about the cathedral is the way

the architecture works is you have these buttresses and they push against each other. one wall is pushing in, the other wall is pushing in and they're balanced. so much of life and so much in life, it should be that way. our politics should be two balances pushing against each other to create something dynamic but stable. >> and the common reaction is we're not quite as realistic as we think we are. whether you were catholic or not or whether you were french or not and so forth. >> i think there's just this hunger for spiritual touch points. you go to the wrn wall in jerusalem, you feel you're on holy ground. and that feeling becomes scarce and scarce. but our souls have not gone away. our souls are still yearning for that part of idea that we're part of some transcendent idea. >> listening to the conversation over the past 10, 12 minutes i

we and yet today we live in a no-eye contact -- where history is a text you got four minutes ago. this conversation is very productive, very educational, very meaningful. why do not more public people talk about these things? >> i think we're a little nervous and and you fwauk the heart and the soul and if you want to talk heart to heart about trauma, but their feelings, it like ah! so i sometimes give talks and

the love relationship between george elliott and her husband and i think these guys aren't going to like thats that moe intemperatur intemperaturesis pro found and with the fire yesterday. >> the book is "the second mountain, the kwets quest for a moral life o ". great to you have you the who. >> brendan: and balance krs tall, thank you as well. of. plus, he's already won the masters. now tiger woods could be looking

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in 2000. and a new boone for predatory left-handers and how the administration and specifically mick mull rain we'll be right back. whoa. this looks worse than i thought.

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joining us now political writer for "the new york times" and msnbc political analyst nick confessore, his cover story for the upcoming issue of "the new york times" magazine is called "make america pay again," mick mulvaney's master class in destroying the government from within." this is elizabeth warren's message. a lot of people in the finance

history had a problem with her message and consumer protection bureau. it was built to protect the consumer, there was a point to it and presidential campaigns and the consumer hanging as you point out. >> right, mika. this is a story about the two ways of populism and theory of the government that emerged after the financial crash. and the warren idea was that the financial markets, the consumer credit industry was built on a sleight of hand, of fooling customers that their products, credit carl edwards and mortgages and auto loans were actually cheaper than they appeared and it was time for the consumer agency to step in and protect consumers. on the other poll, the poll that gave us trump ultimately was the idea that the real problem in the financial crash was the government working too closely with elites and the government that did too much and stepped in too often. and the irony of all this is that a president who ran against banks, who kind of ran against

wall street and bashed hedge fund guys, bought in to a presidescheme to get rid of it. what we've seen a master class in how you deacon struck an agency from within. what you won't see with mulvaney as you have with other trump appointees are these financial scandals, implosions and getting smack back by courts over and over again. what they've done slowly and carefully is take apart the house that warren built. pulling out a screw here. unscrewing a light bulb here or turning off the security camera here. so ultimately the agency can do loose and is less effective at its stated message. >> this sabotage of the consumer protection bureau by mick mulvaney let's start by differentiating between legitimate financial institutions which are heavily regulated and things lake payday

loan operations which absolutely devour families and individuals on a weekly basis. >> payday lenners are a specific category of lender. they aren't banks. they tend to work with the working poor. what they do is offer you $400 short term for two weeks in exchange for a $5 fee. what the bureau found under obama people can't afford to payback the first loan and keep paying the loan over and offer again, taking out a new loan until those fees add up to more than the price of the loan. this is called a death trap. so the obama appointee said it's time for a fed rule for payday. it was very active in certain states. very active in trump country. he said let's have a rule that says before you make a loan you

have to see if the person can actually pay it back. and mulvaney came in and his first thing was to go after that rule and say it's time to unwind it and get rid of it. >> so it's like getting a loan from a mob. >> there's people who compare pay lenders to loan sharks. 400%, 500 hun500%, 800% sometim. >> this is sort of a master class in how this was done, but my question is why? everybody understands that it's a role of the federal government to protect us, for example, from food that would make us sick from drugs that would do us harm. why not from, from these sorts of practices that do actual harm to people who are vulnerable? >> well, two or three arguments against this. and the first one is that these loans are important to the working poor.

it's often the only source of credit they can get access to. if we get rid of these loans they are caught off from credit. if you think about it, access to credit is a basic part of american life. it's hard to go to college or buy a car or buy a house if you don't have access to credit. the argument that defender of the industry make and people close to mick mulvaney made if you shut these guys down entirely you actually drive the working poor into the arm of the actual loan sharks and make it harder for them to get things. the other is a broader idea that the government shouldn't get involved in these transactions. shouldn't ban certain products. and the important thing to remember the warren critique here is if you take your credit card statement, try and decide how it actually works. read your credit card statement and try to get through it and understand it. what she said sue can't. the average consumer can't. the average argument on the right and the argument at the top of the bureau right now it's not up to the government to come in and say that this transaction, this loan agreement

should be banned. it's up to the consumer and the lender. >> so, nick, is this just mick mulvaney and his attitude towards consumer protection and everything that came out of from the carolinas or is this part of what steve bannon very early on in the administration described as the destruction of the administrative state more broadly and suspicion of government entities and regulation across the board? >> it's a case study in what bannon had laid out. i would argue it was more successful for being more subtle. it's not a chain saw. careful dimunition of the powers of this institution in plain sight. >> we'll be reading your cover story in the "new york times". a great piece. really important. still ahead the very latest from paris as officials warn this morning that the notre dame cathedral is not stable in the wake of yesterday's devastating

fire there. plus nbc news carol lee with her new reporting on growing fears twin trump administration about the exposure current and former officials may face once the public sees the mueller report. and we're getting some great feedback ahead of the inaugural ascend summit on may 10th in new york city. it's all about women, leadership and taking control of your message. things we talk about every day on knowyourvalue.com. i'll be joined on stage by some big guesting clues ariana huf huffington and katty kay will be there. you with can go to knowyourvalue.com to get your tickets and don't forget to sign up for the newsletter by texting to 66866. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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>> he's got the name i.d. he's got the money. judging from his town hall on fairfax news last night he's got the support for his key policy prescriptions. bernie sanders is arguably the democratic front-runner for president. good morning. welcome to "morning joe". it is tuesday, april 16th. along with joker willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. columnist and associate editor for "the washington post" david ignatius. washington anchor for bbc world news america, katty kay. and historian, author of "the souffle america" and rogers professor of the presidency at vanderbilt university john meacham an nbc news and msnbc contributor. so, we'll start this morning, though, we'll get to politics at some point but we'll start with the latest on the catastrophic fire at notre dame. officials in paris say the structure of the cathedral itself has been saved and preserved as a whole.

while the fire spread to one of the two famous bell towers, they have also been spared. 500 firefighters battled the blaze for hours and were able to prevent the fire from spreading to the northern belfry. one firefighter has suffered serious injuries, and there are no fatalities. still, most of the roof of the 12th and 13th century gothic cathedral has been destroyed and this spire collapsed after being engulfed in flames. officials say the fire started at about 6:45 p.m. local time and roughly around closing time. the exact cause is currently unknown. but french media is quoting the paris fire brigade as saying it's quote potentially linked to a major renovation project on the church's spire and it's 250 tons of lead. what a disaster. i mean, just watching this

yesterday was about as heartbreaking as it gets. >> it really was. you know, when we watched the twin towers fall, the tragedy was felt not only in the united states but across the world. and it was a body blow. >> human loss. >> body blow. great human loss for the world at the time, lone superpower. but john meacham, yesterday watching this and hearing word of this tragedy spreading, it really felt like a dagger thrust at the heart of western civilization. >> it did. like everybody i was watching it trying to think about why it was so disturbing, and i think, i finally settled on the fact that this was such an elemental crisis. it's fire and faith. two things that shape us and

have shaped us since we got the fire from the gods to mix our t theological religious views. the reason why such enormous structures were built to make something on earth what they thought of as the new icon of the new jerusalem. it was supposed to make you feel awe. supposed to make you feel small in the great cosmology. why god was worthy in worship. and to have another element from the core of who we are destroy it was this sort of fascinating and unsettling moment in which two things that we revere, don't

particularly understand were fighting with each other. >> and willie geist, just for viewers, just another background, notre dame was actually built on the site of what original lie in ancient times a roman temple of jupiter and then in the 6th century another ancient temple was built. but then, willie, notre dame was built and. it slowly but surely evolved into the great structure that it was, but it had been through so much for those that haven't followed the history of this extraordinary city or this extraordinary building. it had been through, survived plagues, attacks from radicals during the french resolution in 1789. it got rebuilt and then once again fell into disarray during

the commune. the russians occupied this city. of course hitler occupied the city. and it was almost torn down at one point because it was in such dilapidated shape. perhaps that's why macron and why so many of the french yesterday were saying we will rebuild it again. >> yeah. i think you nailed it. mike and i were just talking before we came on the air we sort of surprised ourselves how we felt about this, how emotional it was to watch this beautiful cathedral burn. it's because of what you just said it's always been there. since the 12th and 13th centuries. it stood through all the events of history that you described there including a resolution, including adolf hitler and the nazis occupying the city of paris for four years. the presidential historian tweeted out a photo yesterday which got me that american g.i.s

sitting on their jeeps in front of notre dame having liberated the city from the nazis. i'm heartened by a couple of things that the crown of thorns said to have been worn by jesus at his crucifixion was saved. two french families have pledged $350 million already to get this beautiful cathedral rebuilt to this point. but what a scene where you have the chaplain for the paris fire department running into a fire with firefighters to save the crown of thorns. >> yes. it was like you, willie, watching it like many, like many millions around the world. i was struck by the different reactions i had as the afternoon wore on and the fire built. first astonishment, surprise at the fire. then a sense of grief within me about what i was watching. and i was trying to figure it

out and as john meacham was just speak about it, it means much more than just the soul of a nation burning, france. it's part of the soul of civilization burning. i've been there a number of times. you achieve for people like us an odd thing a sense of you h humility. 900 years of history, faith, civilization in that cathedral. do we understand what loss means and what we lost yesterday or are we too busy paying attention to the immediate civilian our culture today to worry and wonder about things that we have right in front of us that we taught pay more attention to and be more grateful for. then the symbolism of the day

itself. holy week. holy thursday. good friday. easter sunday. the resurrection coming. all of it combined for just a me m mesmerizing afternoon and evening of prayer. >> let's go to paris now. chief foreign correspondent richard engel is there. he's been covering the story since it started yesterday. richard, let's start first with cause of the fire. the fire department has suspected that it was this renovation that was taking place up high in the beams. what more have they said about that today? >> reporter: so they have ruled out arson. they ruled out terrorism. they say they are treating this as an accident. investigators have already begun to question some of the construction workers who were working on this renovation project. they are concerned that something may have gone wrong there, there could have been a loose flame. architects are also now on the

site studying to see how much structural damage there actual was. they said the building is sound. notre dame is still here. a lot of people in paris have been coming out on the streets to see what happened, how much of the building was destroyed. there's a sense of relief, also grief but sense of leave it could have been worse. people have been coming here to see maybe we can go on, maybe we can rebuild. the french president said they would rebuild. there have been hundreds of millions of dollars pledged to rebuild. but until they figure out how much structural damage there s-they don't know how long it will take. >> richard, i mentioned the crown of thorns. do you have a sense this morning, a better sense maybe today for what was saved and what was not saved from the cathedral? >> reporter: right now they have mentioned that several of the key icons, the organ was saved, the treasury was saved. the crown of thorns inside the

treasury was saved. so several of the most important religious artifacts and some of the iconic artwork was, in fact, salvaged. but until they are able to get inside and spend more time, they are not going to know the full extent of the damage and that's why the architects are on the scene right now. they want to make sure it's safe for rescue workers to spend long periods of time in this building so beams don't fall on top of them. debris doesn't cause any personal damage. but what you were saying earlier, just one thing. you mentioned how this is a building that has been touched by fire and filled with faith. and that has brought people here together. there's a sense that paris had a collective experience. for a moment last night as they saw this building in flames, then the french government came out with this very dramatic announcement preparing the people for the fact that notre

dame might not be saved, that it might be gone this, icon might be erased from the face of this city. there was a terrible sense of loss. people came out. they were crying here on the streets. now they are coming out, seeing what's left and they are thinking, okay, it is time to rebuild. there have been renovations here in the past. there can be renovation in the future. already and i think this is a positive note there are discussions about what kind of design they are going to use. will it be an updated modern design or just try to recreate what was there before? >> richard, thank you very much. we will continue this conversation. still ahead on "morning joe" we're just days away from the mueller report going public and it's not just congress and american voters bracing for its release, it's also current and former white house officials whose cooperation with the special counsel could be exposed. will their names be redacted?

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justice department says it expects to release special counsel robert mueller's redacted report on russian meddling in the 2016 election and potential obstruction of justice by president trump on thursday morning. that's just before the start of the easter holiday weekend. an official who has spoken to a member of mueller's team told nbc news the report describes compelling evidence on obstruction with much more information than attorney general william barr released. the official said that some within the special counsel's office report their purpose was to leave the legal question open for congress and the public to examine the evidence. it's not clear how mueller himself feels about the matter. and new reporting this morning from nbc on now current and former white house officials are worried that the public version of the mueller report will expose them as the sources of damaging information about president donald trump. people familiar with the discussion say some of the

officials and their lawyers have sought clarity from the justice department on whether the names of those who cooperated with mueller's team will be redacted or if the report, the public report will be written in way that makes it obvious who shared certain details of trump's actions in the obstruction probe. but the justice department has refused to elaborate. joining us now with more detail, national political reporter for nbc news carol lee. carol, good morning. so we get to the heart of the reason why many people don't want to see the mueller report out because their names will be all over it. who are we talking about? >> some who are still in the white house and then former officials. there's two former chief of staff. don mcgahn spent countless hours with mueller's team and a number of other officials. from their perspective people we talked to look we were told by the president and his legal team hey cooperate with this investigation and the only thing to do in that scenario is to going and tell truth otherwise you risk perjury charges.

so now the report is going to come out and, is my name going to be in there. is it going to say i said this incident that the president said this thing that he'll be angry about. said bob woodward kind of thing where you can figure out who exactly said what and what the different sources are and then that basically they are worried about the president's wrath. that he and his allies will come down on him and publicly, whether it's through twitter or on fox news criticize them. so there's a lot of anxiety. >> do you sense there are specific claims that some of them have made that might implicate the president in obstruction and that's why they are worried that would not be redacted? >> yes. couple of people we talked to said it wasn't so much -- it's not that we're is going to learn things that we can't imagine the president would have said or done, it's just more of what, the kind of things we already know that will be new and that will be able to be adescribed to certain people. because in certain situations it

could be just the president and one other person and then completely obvious who then went and told. >> david ignatius, when we get the report on thursday, what can you tell us? what are your thoughts on what we're going see? is this going to be just the first in a number of steps towards the slow painful reveal of the mueller report? will it be heavily redacted? what your hearing? what are your thoughts? >> from what we know, it will be significantly redacted. then there will be a battle over getting an unredacted version that could be read in private, in theory, by members of congress. there will be a fight whether the investigative materials that contributed to the report can be made public. i think based on what we know and sense is coming will get a lot more evidence about the

question of obstruction. we know from attorney general barr summary mat mueller couldn't dismiss the evidence of obstruction. didn't resolve it by saying that he found obstruction. but there's a lot of evidence there and some of the people that carol mentioned, don mcgahn, the white house counsel talked repeatedly with the president about some of the thing he was wanting to do, talked him out of some things he proposed. he'll be a key part of this. other top white house officials. i have my own list of questions i hope will be answered about obstruction, and also about collusion. and the collusion evidence. we'll see at the end of the week how many those really have answers. i think on the collusion front we still want to understand what was the nature of some of these contacts between trump campaign officials and russians. if mueller decided that it didn't constitute a inclusion how did he go through that process of decision. hopefully we'll have better

evidence when the report is out. coming up on "morning joe" president trump gets some company in the republican race for the presidency. former governor bill weld just launched a primary challenge for the white house and he joins the conversation next on "morning joe". to be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪

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today we need bill weld more than ever. because america deserves better. >> he was a war hero because he was captured. i like people that weren't captured okay. oh, i don't know what i said. i don't remember. mexico will pay for the wall. we also had people that were very fine people on both sides. i love wikileaks. i know nothing about wikileaks. >> america has a choice. new hampshire 2019. a better america starts here. >> it's official, president trump has a primary challenger. yesterday former two term massachusetts governor william

weld will run. it's not the first time he's faced trump on the national stage. weld ran for vice president on the 2016 libertarian party ticket headed by gary johnson. and william weld joins us now from new hampshire, which will hold the first primary of the 2020 nomination contest. good to have you on the show this morning. >> governor, thanks so much for being with us. obviously, you're engaged in a long shot campaign. but we, of course, know back in '91 when george h.w. bush was in the high 80s and bill clinton decided to step in the race. so anything is possible. but still you're facing long odds. how do you break through to republicans that they deserve better and that you're the candidate that can deliver to them the leadership that they need? >> well, i think it's one voter

at a time. and i think it's good for the country to have somebody put the president to his proof as it were. ask him some why questions like why do you think it's good to insult our military allies. why do you praise dictators. it is because you wish america was more dick dictatoral. bob woodward's book of "fear" and that's the president's strategy. this is the case of the elm erimportant e -- emperor's news clothes. if you look at history the new hampshire primary has gone up and down and the polls have gone up and down. i'm going camp up out here as well as other parts of the country and make the case and i think the case very much there to be made. >> governor, you've been up in

new hampshire several times prior to your official announcement. and i figure, you know, you might have some support in a couple of streets in concord, a couple of streets in hanover. throughout the rest of the state, when you've been up there speaking to the base, you get any resonance in anything you say during the course of your talking to different people? >> i get resonance from everybody that i talk to. now they are not the leadership of the republican state party, but those people are all taking dictation from washington and they are not going to be the people who are so numerous that they cast votes that's going to decide the primaries or the election. they are just the party bosses, if you will, and my strategy is going to be enlarge the electorate, to bring in independent, millennials, gen xers, female voters. i did that and the vote came in

6-1. >> governor, from your campaign ad it looks pretty clear what you're running on is the president's character and how you see that as being unfit for office. but many trump supporters we know also have questions about the president's character but they feel that his policies and his support of them makes it worth keeping him in office. how do you split people who have already decided look we know we don't like many of the things he does and says but we like the policies that he's implementing? >> what you hear sometimes people say i like the president's tax cuts. so do i, by the way. but i don't like his style. but it's not style when you're as angry all the time and uncurious as this president is. he comes out on the wrong place. for example, the president insists that global warming is a

hoax. well does he think those scientist whose did those measurements are making money off the deal and lying about the results of the scientific examination? it just betrays a lack of homework and not really thinking ahead about what to do. you know, we're going to have the white mountains with no snow. we're going to have the ocean rise. we'll have our sea coast re-arranged when that polar ice cap melts if nobody does anything about this. to say it's a hoax and that's an excuse for doing nothing that's irresponsible and it's not style it's substance. >> thank you very much. good luck to you. coming up on "morning joe" it's survived plague, war, resolution and the nazis. we reflect on the history of the iconic notre dame cathedral. "morning joe" is back in a moment. a moment

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got to go. ♪ that was a scene from the 2014 film "the monuments men." the true story of a world war ii platoon tasked to rescue art masterpieces from the nazis. >> this morning france is once again forced to save historic and priceless relics and works of art in the wake of

yesterday's notre dame cathedral fire. joining us now, author of the book on which "the monuments men" movie was made. robert edsel. mike barn kill, katty kay and nick confessore are back with us. >> so many questions that are unanswered. let me ask you, any insight into whether there was any plan, any contingency for this type of disaster at notre dame, and if so any idea whether it was carried out effectively? >> i think that's one of the questions we're going to know in the next few weeks. of course, today is a somber day as we assess the degree of damage. and, you know, it's not a time for finger pointing at this stage. certainly in the larger picture we have to wonder about evacuation plans, about protection of works of art there, and more so the activity

that was taking place with the restoration work and how that possibly could have contributed to this horrific destruction of this really irreplaceable part of our shared cultural heritage. >> what are the greater pieces of art that you want to learn about, about what survived, what may not have survived the fire at notre dame? >> well we're receiving news of some of the important artifacts, this thorn of, this halo of thorns that christ may have worn. very, very important. that appears to have been saved. but i'm more concerned about not just the structure and the thought of rebuilding, which to some degree -- i think there's a bit of giddiness of the structure having survived. while that's a critical portion of it and had been a greater tragedy if that was destroyed

the rebuilding process despite our remarkable tools of technology to try to recreate the sense of majesty that existed in that building and the history that has been there for some 900 years, that's something that i don't think is possible. we can certainly make it appear similar to how it was, but it raises this question of the war that goes on day-to-day less dramatic than actual combat what the monuments men did during world war ii. budget cuts, budget shortages, erosion from pollution. catastrophic effects such as fire. works of art around the world are under threat every day in less dramatic fashion and these events are in much greater risk of happening in the future and perhaps that's the silver lining if there's one of the damage to notre dame is that government and cities around the world and the people there, that were

there in the streets expressing the horror that they felt about seeing this part of our cultural heritage damaged will engage and understand the importance of preserving these things and the fact that it does cost money to do it. >> on that point, i mean there are around the world, around the united states but literally around the world many museums that contain artifacts that are literally irreplaceable. they cannot be replaced. so much of the world yesterday in a community of organization of grief watched what happened in notre dame. yesterday was a warning as you just pointed out to many other museums. what can to be done with specific museums, specifically to help retain what they have? >> we are a society that's outstanding expressing, at expressing sympathy and outrage.

we're deficient, to say the least, with respect to preventative medicine. people don't want to hear about the need for taxes to sustain cultural treasures. sometimes -- look we have extraordinary number of wealthy people. some have come forward to make commitments of financial support to help rebuild notre dame. but the amount of money pledged is many times, several times larger than the budget that was in place and needed to try and sustain the church or to sustain the cathedral when this restoration plan of put in place. so it's much easier to raise funds today as an example for these great cultural treasures and for buildings. but this story as you so well know will fade into the background in the weeks to come it will be replaced by other important stories and it will lose tint of the public because it's not going to be on the front page and on programs such

as yours. we need leadership. we need people in positions such as the president of the united states, such as the leader of france and other countries to make the case for why the preservation of cultural treasures matter. they mattered during world war ii in a conflagration that claimed 65 million lives. they made the protection of cultural treasures a priority. i believe leadership is critical. it starts at the top. and suggestions about dropping water on museums or churches, that's not the approach we need to take that will be effective in the long run. >> to which by the way the french authorities did respond yesterday. robert, the french traditionally have been better than many countries at preserving their historic monuments. i spent a lot of time in france

and even in the smallest villages there will be funds for the restoration of old abbys and churches. does that give you comfort that notre dame is in the right hands this time around and a national effort will be made to restore it? >> i have no question notre dame. everything that can to be done that money can accomplish, especially incorporating the tools of the day to get notre dame back in some semblance of how it looked. i have no question. the greater question when we consider the magnitude of the things that need protecting not just in france but in italy. i lived in paris for six months. the number of important churches and museums in a country like italy stagger the mind when you consider the cost of taking care of these things. we as a society have grown-up in assuming taking for granted governments can continue to do this. the problems far greater than

the budgets of any government. they are going to require the support of the public, they are going require the support of extraordinarily wealthy people. it will take a united effort. i don't know of any way to assemble those force without leadership making the case that yes it's important to take care of people and there's many people in great need but it's also important to take care of these cultural treasures because we know no society lives alone. that we are an amalgamation of our own achievements. if we lose these things of the past we're poorer for it. >> chairman of the monuments men foundation for the preservation of art, robert edsel. thank you very much. up next tax day has come and gone and a new report reveals that dozens of america's biggest companies not only did not pay anything, some actually received

billions in rebates. plus the latest on fundraising efforts by the 2020 democratic hopefuls including mayor pete buttigieg big haul after his formal entry into the race. and fellow 2020 hopeful bernie sanders takes on the biggest flop threat facing the u.s. we'll bring in a doctor who has a new book offering advice on how to die young at a ripe old age. we have plenty more "morning joe" straight ahead. jo straight. every day, visionaries are creating the future. ♪ so, every day, we put our latest technology and unrivaled network to work. ♪ the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. ♪ because the future only happens with people who really know how to deliver it.

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>> from a foreign policy perspective which country is the biggest threat to the u.s.? >> i don't know that i -- look, i don't like using the word threat because that's oh, my god we have to spend zillions more. here's an example. clearly we're concerned about china, concerned about russia. here's the irony here. you got people who say we need to spend even more than $700 billion a year, more than the next ten nations combined on the military. you know why? china is a real potential enemy. these are the same people who are investing billions of dollars building the chinese economy. i find that somewhat ironic. >> another moment there from senator bernie sanders, fox news

town hall in bethlehem, pennsylvania. after last night's deadline we're just learning how much 2020 democratic procedural candidates have fundraisered in the first quarter of the election election cycle. bernie sanders still at the top bringing in $18.2 million. followed by senator kamala harris and former congressman beto o'roarke. new additions to the list include kirsten gillibrand whose campaign has raised $3 million. jay inslee scooped up 2 .25 million followed by john hickenlooper at 2.2 million. trailing the pack is julian castro who has raised 1.1 million. hours after kicking off his official 2020 bid mayor pete

buttigieg's campaign announced it raised another $1 million. liz smith said the money was raised just four hours after buttigieg officially announced in comparison buttigieg raised only $120,000 in the 24 hours after launching his presidential exploratory committee in late january. first quarter fec filings show buttigieg has spent less than $700,000 of the more than 7 million raised. a burn rate of less than 10% compared to about 85% for senator elizabeth warren and mayor pete, by the way, will be our guest on thursday morning. it will be great to see him. >> it will be great to see him again. nick confessore, a lot to digest when you look at the numbers. i am impressed by the burn rate of mayor pete being so low. one of the first bits of advice i got before i launched my campaign was an old washington hand told me hey, kid, here's

the secret. raise a lot of money and don't spend any of it. >> mayor pete's number is the convergence of two important trends in politics. the first is viral politics. you can make a campaign out of moments that go viral. you can have a moment and a second and third moment. the second is there is now a fund raising mechanism, small donors online. take advantage of that viral politics where you can raise money off the hits. you don't necessarily have to build the same kind of campaign team across many states to make a campaign in the early stages. he's flying light. it's a real advantage for him. the final take away from the numbers you saw is not who raised the most money which is bernie sanders who ran in 2016. he has a huge list and a passionate following. the question is who's raised enough money. there are at least seven people on the list, the top seven who raised enough money to keep going for a couple quarters at that rate. it's a substantial haul.

it's going to be a competitive primary. >> wow. all right. now the business for the bell with sara eisen. hulu just repurchased at&t's stake in the business for $1.4 billion. what does the move mean for the company's future? >> it means that hulu is valued at a higher price than even just a few months ago. this puts hulu's valuation at $15 billion. disney according to a regulatory filing just in november had put hulu's valuation at about $9.25 billion. we're also in the era of streaming moves. to back up a bit on hulu, it's a complicated structure. this was a company that was backed by all the big entertainment giants. at one point 21st century fox, disney, our parent company comcast and at&t. now with the latest move it means just two. disney has majority control of hulu.

co comcast is also an owner of hulu. hue lie is doing well. it dropped the price 2 a month on the streaming service to $5.99 a month. it comes at a time where disney is betting big. it has espn plus and disney plus. netflix reports earnings after the bell today. i also want to bring you this other story. i know if you're like me, you're scrambling to get your taxes in, get to the post office. think about this fact. 60 american companies paid zero in federal taxes last year. this is according to a new report from the institute on taxation and economic policy. it looked at how fortune 500 companies have been affected by president trump's tax cut. it turns out double the number in previous years actually paid no taxes. and that amounted to about 31% fewer revenues from corporate taxes. no wonder our deficit is climbing. it has to do with the lower corporate tax rate.

and also the fact that these companies get tax breaks. they got some new ones including investing on plant and equipment. some of the popular ones, netflix, amazon, deere, and a number of others. >> all right. sara icen, thank you very much. and now to some medical news. our next guest says that understanding and improving our gut health could be the key to preventing diseases and improving our quality of life. joining us now heart season and cardiologist dr. steven gundri. his new book is the longevity paradox. let's start there. explain the paradox. >> well, mika, the paradox of longevity. we all want to get old but we say this doesn't look very good. people in nursing homes. people getting operations. dying of cancer.

and the paradox is it doesn't have to be that way. through discoveries we've found out that the manipulation of the bugs that live inside of us and making them happy actually can keep you young well into ripe old age. and it's actually easy to do if you know how to eat. >> okay. i want to know how to eat. i'm working on this. >> the great nutritionist and exercise junk can i had an expression. if it tastes good, spit it out. >> oh. >> what he was actually saying, and this goes to you and you've talked about your sugar addiction. we know that the bugs that live in our gut are basically two sets of people. the gang members love simple sugars and saturated fats. and they will literally hijack your brain and make you feed them.

on the other hand -- >> ha happened to me. >> on the other hand, the good guys actually want green leafy stuff. they want olive oil, and here's an alert. they like tubers and mushrooms. in fact, a recent study shows if you eat two cups of mushrooms a week, you basically prevent alzheimer's disease. whoa. >> so -- >> that's amazing. >> the book is filled with great sensible tips on how to eat and how it helps you to eat properly, but of course, it's torture even reading about what you ought not to eat. the obvious things, doctor. fast food, stuff like that. but don't microwave things in plastic. >> yeah. >> even plastics are a big problem. things that are wrapped in plastic, the plastic actually puts estrogen-like compounds into the food you eat. that estrogen actually hijacks your brian, feeds cancer, makes you fat.

we have guys walking around with bellies that look like they're pregnant. >> why are you looking at me? >> not you. not you. where can i look? >> oh, no. >> you look great, mike. and your wife is gorgeous. >> thank you. >> she is. >> dr. gund ri, let me ask you a question. we just gave up plastic. i'm on this sugar -- i'm taking a total month off from sugar. and it is really, really, really hard. it's something i've struggled with all my life, and actually i have a piece out on know your value documenting the entire decision that went behind this, how i'm doing it. a lot of it is with the brain. so how do you help the people reading your book, can they learn about how to get to the other side of eating well, retraining the taste buds, and working with the mind part of this? >> yeah. the gut/brain connection is now well established. we used to think that the connection between the brain and the gut, the brain controlled

the gut. we now know the bugs in your gut actually control most of your behavior. most of our feel-good hormones are actually made by bacteria in the gut. and if we give them what they like to eat, for instance, they love tubers. have some sweet potatoes and mushroom, roots like radishes. and have some poly phenal containing foods. black coffee, dark chocolate, tea, will help your food and get you through this time of the sugar addiction. that's actually caused by the gang members who have hi jacked your brain. they're going feed me, mika. feed me. >> and it's -- >> dark chocolate. >> we had an incident between us on this, and joe made me eat a sunda sundae. i talk about it in the article.

doctor, thank you so much. the book is the longevity paradox. how to die young at a ripe old age. doctor, thank you. come back. it was great to have you on. >> what an important read. >> what does it for us. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks so much. i'm stephanie ruhle. this morning our lady in ruins. the historic notre dame cathedral still standing after 400 firefighters battled a massive fire for hours. investigators believe it was an accident. the french president pledges to rebuild the monument, saying it is the fate and destiny of france. and 48 hours, a redacted version of the mueller report expected to be delivered to congress this thursday as nbc news learns that some staffers are now worried the report could expose them as the source of damaging information about president trump himself. and this excluve